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Lee Crockett
05-09-2011, 10:51 AM
Demetrio,

And your point is? Your comment had absolutely nothing to do with my discussion.
I have never disputed that O'Sensei was a very skilled and capable martial artist, but it was his time with Deguchi that got him involved in the Omotokyo religion, and it was following this that his training took on a more spiritual dimenstion when he came back from Manchuria.

Cliff Judge
05-09-2011, 10:52 AM
Cliff,

The source is a book written by Pierre Chassang, i only have it in hard copy, where it is a discussion between him and Arikawa.


Is this the only book you have read?


All i can do is refer to discussions and material i have had access to. If there are others who have trained with Arikawa for years, then i would be interested to hear their opinion. I HAVE NOT offered any disrespect so please withdraw this accusation.

You dissed Mark not Niall, I apologize for not keeping that straight.

You have really come to this forum with nothing but arrogance and dogma, though. Your entire premise is that everyone who doesn't see things in exactly the bizarre way that you do is wrong and not practicing Aikido. I have found this attitude to be personally offensive in a way that I would not if you were singling me out.


If anything it is your growth that is restricted because all you have done is dismissed my comments, which at least are traceable to senior Aikidoka, you have provided no evidence whatsoever.


Reviewing the mass of comments you have posted to this forum in the past couple of weeks, you are mostly speaking your own mind, with occasional references to a book you have not yet named the title of.

Incidentally,


Aikido is a combats system? Then how can you find Aikido in the Tea Ceremony, Bonsai, Calligraphy etc?

You can't.

Demetrio Cereijo
05-09-2011, 11:06 AM
Demetrio,

And your point is? Your comment had absolutely nothing to do with my discussion.
If you say so...

I have never disputed that O'Sensei was a very skilled and capable martial artist, but it was his time with Deguchi that got him involved in the Omotokyo religion, and it was following this that his training took on a more spiritual dimenstion when he came back from Manchuria.
:rolleyes:

Ueshiba went to Manchuria with Deguchi in 1924 and Oomoto Budo Senyokai was founded in 1932.

How have you reached the conclusion Ueshiba went more spiritual after the manchurian experience, when is after that episode when he was more and more involved with militarism,

I suggest you to solve your lack of knowledge about the subject at hand before engaging in further debate if you want to be taken seriously.

Regards.

Lee Crockett
05-09-2011, 11:20 AM
Well i think its quite clear that people do not even accept basic historical information.

"That which people who practice the martial arts call Aiki is fundamentally different to what i call Aiki" - O'Sensei

This statement sums it up, as does Arikawas in relation to Aikido today "Budo Sportif" which is also supported by the thread on Abe and Tomikis reaction to teaching in the Hombu.

lbb
05-09-2011, 11:59 AM
Then you are contradicting Arikawa. You carry on believing that if you want, but i know who i believe.

This guy (http://www.pollplace.com/images/2010/10/18/youthinkdotcom_3241895_241822.jpg), maybe?

abraxis
05-09-2011, 12:17 PM
This guy (http://www.pollplace.com/images/2010/10/18/youthinkdotcom_3241895_241822.jpg), maybe?

He reminds me of

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehzjlGtn9a0

jonreading
05-09-2011, 12:58 PM
The point I was making in my first post to the OP was that I believe O'Sensei did not want to transmit his aikido. Think of it like a beta system... it worked but not in a manner that would be consumable by a larger audience. I believe this is why we have such a striking different between pre and post-war aikido and why the aikido Doshu transmitted was different that his father's [aikido].

I think were you are losing me is when you make assertions about aikido and come up short on the evidence to support the claim. And to be far, I get on Graham about this too when he gets a little far out for me.

I think we need to start defining some elements here. It seems like we are getting confused by some of Lee's posts; I know I certainly am.

In answer to a couple of direct comments from one of my earlier posts:
Aikido cannot be taught or learnt, Aikido is discovered.

Techniques are TOOLS to help find Aikido. The techniques demonstrated in the class to the students, once being performed competently does not mean one is automatically doing Aikido.

You have to go beyond the physical.
Lee, later in your posts you correct your statement to acknowledge that by "discovery" you actually mean "self-learning". I believe this to be a fair assumption of the learning responsibility undertaken in aikido. You also correct your statement about not teaching aikido to acknowledge that sempai and sensei act in a guidance role. Of course the term itself "sensei" means teacher but I do not disagree with your corrected statement, although I still advocate aikido transmitted through a structured educational paradigm is the best transmission method. I appreciate the original structure of the traditional shu, ha, ri method of discipleship.

You assert an observation of the universal state of aiki, according to a quote attributed to Arikawa Sensei in a book you read. Yet with little [other] supporting evidence you are dismissing many solid and reproducible theories about aikido. Several posts have asked for additional supporting evidence, I will echo those comments. You answered many of those posts with a dismissive statement to continue to train in ignorance. I can promise you some of the guys to whom you made those comments are not ignorant. I am not saying anything you say is incorrect, only that your statement appears superficial.
Also, keep in mind that as with many of the early shihans, you can throw a rock and hit about 5 other shihan who disagree with any statement from any one. You dismiss several posts by referring to the poster as disagreeing with Arikawa sensei... so?
I believe that the technical curriculum we have in aikido was designed to express aikido, not to find it. I believe the connection we experience with our partners actually happens before the manifestation of a technique. Ipso facto, we are doing jutsu if we do not have that connective state prior to technique. The practice of jutsu in aikido is to provide an outlet for that expression. As you have mentioned several times, this is why aiki can exist in other forms and martial arts; we are practicing another outlet for that expression.
I am not sure I can buy the enlightenment then aikido thing though. Imposing an Eastern philosophical principle into a Western culture with no known equivalent (now that we cannot use the "zone") is at best poorly explaining your point. You're dropping some heavy change here and pretty much telling everyone in aikido they will never "do" aikido because if I remember correctly attaining enlightenment is a pretty difficult thing to accomplish. I think you need to come to the table with a significantly better defense than this is what I think and if you don't believe me the you are contradicting Arikawa Sensei.

I think if you choose to share your beliefs as fact, you need to be prepared to defend those beliefs as fact. There are many beliefs I hold pertaining to aikido but I do not publicly share them because I am not yet ready to defend them. I would like to hear more about how you arrived at the conclusions you have asserted and what was the foundational support for the conclusions.

Alberto_Italiano
05-09-2011, 05:26 PM
There are many beliefs I hold pertaining to aikido but I do not publicly share them because I am not yet ready to defend them.

Since those are probably the most interesting ones, exactly because they are probably a product of your own personal experience, I would like to know them instead - I promise I will never ask you to "defend" them!
And if you decide to disclose them, we'll ignore Lee's comments about them :-)

Maarten De Queecker
05-10-2011, 04:41 AM
Maarten,

If your technique sucks, your technique sucks. It has nothing to do with Aikido.

Aikido is a combats system? Then how can you find Aikido in the Tea Ceremony, Bonsai, Calligraphy etc?

You can't, since the tea pot, the tree and the pen are not attacking you. You need (preferably aggressive) energy in order to perform aikido.

That said, it is perfectly possible to apply aikido to daily situations, e.g. in the way you handle conflicts at work or in your family. I would not call those aikido, but rather applications of the priniciples of aikido.

Aikido in itself is a combat system derived from various other systems that had battlefield legitimacy (i.e. they were efficient at killing other people). Aikido still holds a lot of that destructive potential but we generally do not decide to unleash it. Destroying people is easy, controlling them without (permanently) harming them too much is way more difficult.

graham christian
05-10-2011, 12:45 PM
You can't, since the tea pot, the tree and the pen are not attacking you. You need (preferably aggressive) energy in order to perform aikido.

That said, it is perfectly possible to apply aikido to daily situations, e.g. in the way you handle conflicts at work or in your family. I would not call those aikido, but rather applications of the priniciples of aikido.

Aikido in itself is a combat system derived from various other systems that had battlefield legitimacy (i.e. they were efficient at killing other people). Aikido still holds a lot of that destructive potential but we generally do not decide to unleash it. Destroying people is easy, controlling them without (permanently) harming them too much is way more difficult.

Maarten.
Therein lies the apparent discrepancy and apparent contradiction of O'Sensei Aikido.

That it's as you say and yet that it's as described by others. O'Sensei has many sayings and quotes you can fit with each view as do some of his students.

I'm not one for quoting 'he said therefore' and thus not really one for citing who said what when for I wasn'y there and thus can't fully grasp the circumstance under which the statement was made or context it was said in or even if the person who said it would appreciate others holding it as a fixed position from which to argue a point.

How would you or any of us feel if we came across people in twenty years time arguing about a staement we made twenty years prior? Would we even remember saying it?

Having said that I do admire the real historian who goes and visits sources of information, all kinds of sources pertinent to the person or time and thus presents a more interesting picture.

Plus as an aside it seems reasonable to most that we should hold a view and in argument that's what arguing is all about, defending your view. However this may be very clever and if you watch polititions very 'normal' but why not explore the different views without any reason to go against or agree.

This thought is what occured to me and led to me adding here.

Just that word, explore, mmm. feels better already.

Cheers.G.

abraxis
05-12-2011, 03:27 PM
I believe that OSensei's Aikido is the "Art of Peace".

Until you know this, and accept it fully, possessing any combination of rank, skill, technique, martial abilities, physical or mental strength is insufficient.

Once you come to know and fully accept this you can begin to learn to do OSensei's Aikido.

Demetrio Cereijo
05-12-2011, 03:41 PM
I believe that OSensei's Aikido is the "Art of Peace".

Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum; qui victoriam cupit, milites imbuat diligenter; qui secundos optat eventus, dimicet arte, non casu. Nemo provocare, nemo audet offendere, quem intellegit superiorem esse pugnaturum. Flavius Vegetius.

abraxis
05-12-2011, 04:30 PM
Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum; qui victoriam cupit, milites imbuat diligenter; qui secundos optat eventus, dimicet arte, non casu. Nemo provocare, nemo audet offendere, quem intellegit superiorem esse pugnaturum. Flavius Vegetius.

"The Art of Peace begins with you. Work on yourself and your appointed task in the Art of Peace. Everyone has a spirit that can be refined, a body that can be trained in some manner, a suitable path to follow. You are here for no other purpose than to realize your inner divinity and manifest your innate enlightenment. Foster peace in your own life and then apply the Art to all that you encounter."

Excerpted by William McLuskie from The Art of Peace a collection of quotes by Morihei Ueshiba translated by John Stevens.

inframan
06-22-2011, 10:49 AM
an interesting article on the subject:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=34

ikkitosennomusha
06-24-2011, 10:50 PM
I would say so. Each sensei has learned aiki principles that were transmitted through a lineage. That lineage, usually the head of an organization, may tweak a technique but the fundamental, underlying principle is the same. So, I feel that if O'sensei were present in this discussion, he would say "take what I have shown you and make it your own". No two people will perform a technique in an identical manner no more than a molecule that spins on a certain order of magnitude will travel the same path. I hope this is the correct way to approach your question.

gates
06-25-2011, 12:46 PM
O' Sensei graciously gave his Aikido to the world.

Whether it is the martial, spiritual or even aesthetic aspects there is something valuable that we can gain from training. Even if it is just better manors.

Aikido is a tree it needs roots, a trunk, branches and leaves. When O'sensei planted the tree and nurtured it as a sapling he didn't know what the tree was going to turn out like. If the Aikido tree is going to flower it will need to be healthy.

Arguing over which part of the tree is real or better seems rather ridiculous really.

Trace it back in a sense it is all O'Senseis Aikido, he is the seed but not the tree.

Chose to train in a style that suits your needs, requirements, interests. I see no point in wasting time criticizing other people, it will only breed discontent. The journey itself is the point of the exercise not the destination.

So are you really doing O'Senseis Aikido? If you are semantically or pointless arguing.. probably not.

(My girlfriend says this post sounds a bit didactic and pompous - she is probably right)

Tim Ruijs
06-26-2011, 11:21 AM
... if O'sensei were present in this discussion, he would say "take what I have shown you and make it your own". No two people will perform a technique in an identical manner ...

Well put:) I guess it is why many teachers say: steal my technique!

DH
06-26-2011, 09:16 PM
I would say so. Each sensei has learned aiki principles that were transmitted through a lineage. That lineage, usually the head of an organization, may tweak a technique but the fundamental, underlying principle is the same. So, I feel that if O'sensei were present in this discussion, he would say "take what I have shown you and make it your own". No two people will perform a technique in an identical manner no more than a molecule that spins on a certain order of magnitude will travel the same path. I hope this is the correct way to approach your question.
At some point in time someone needs to hold some sort of standard or someones feet to the fire.
As it is now its all over the place and it seems to me that lineage, or teachers or standards or rank really don't apply in any meaningful way.
And taking quotes from Ueshiba don't really help as they themselves are all over the place.
What are supposed to say to
"Take what I have shown you and make it your own."
When compared to him bellowing at his own deshi saying
"This is not my aikido."
:rolleyes:
In the fullness of time these "make aikido your own" statements should be challenged by taking them to their logical conclusion.
Dan

gates
06-27-2011, 12:40 AM
These are simply statements of fact rather than attempting to add anything constructive to the debate.

Gozo Shioda Received Daito Ryu Certificate from O'Sensei.

Tomiki was requested by Ueshiba Family not to call what his was doing Aikido.

The modal mainstream ranking system is based predominantly on duration of training rather than actual ability.

O'senseis Kiai could be heard from the Iwama train station 500m away. In the Hombu Dojo in Tokyo Kiai is banned.

O'Senseis Aikido is a synthesis of Weapons and Tai-Jitsu.

Tim Ruijs
06-27-2011, 02:55 AM
In the fullness of time these "make aikido your own" statements should be challenged by taking them to their logical conclusion.
Dan

I am not sure I understand. In my opinion the student selects his/her teacher based on good or bad assumptions of what Aikido is. Some students will find their teacher cannot help them anymore (to pursue their Aikido) and search for another. Others obviously do not. Some advance, some will not. Natural selection...

In that process students copy the technique, hopefully try and understand and progress. ...take my technique and make it your own...

The quality that remains depends on the skill/ability of the student. Note that this by no means implies that a teacher with many students is any good! Just that he provides a form that is clearly highly acceptable by many....:D

As I understood O Sensei regards Aikido as a means to develop ones independence; learn make you own decisions...

gates
06-27-2011, 05:11 AM
At some point in time someone needs to hold some sort of standard or someones feet to the fire.

In the fullness of time these "make aikido your own" statements should be challenged by taking them to their logical conclusion.
Dan

In essence I can agree with this, however for a lot of people aikido is applied off the mat in non combative situations. The tests are there everyday at work, on the bus, with strangers down the pub. in this sence people who may have terrible aikido on the mat can have exquisite aikido off the mat, or vice versa.

For me the " logical conclusion " is whether you can "act in accordance to the divine will" when faced with aversity or aggression.

I realise this is not quite where Dan is coming from, there is room for a more martial frame of reference too. The world is wonderfully vast in colour and contrast.

Tim Ruijs
06-27-2011, 06:41 AM
So challenged should be interpreted as tested/verified?
Even if you should want to, you cannot. The only ultimate test would be a fight to the death. And even then it says nothing about the level of comprehension and ability of Aikido one might have, or indeed not have. Actual combat is affected not only by your fighting skills...

O Sensei to my knowledge did not develop Aikido to learn to fight, to test, to compete...but rather to develop oneself, better oneself, become independent (do not be a follower). But that is my opinion.

gates
06-27-2011, 10:15 AM
O Sensei to my knowledge did not develop Aikido to learn to fight, to test, to compete...but rather to develop oneself, better oneself, become independent (do not be a follower). But that is my opinion.

Your opinion is valid, as an opinion, and nobody can argue with that. Nobody doubts the philosophical and spiritual influences of O'Senseis involvement in the Omotokyo religion had on the development of Aikido.

Martial arts training as a method for spiritual/personal improvement is not a new idea, however that does not imply that it cannot/should not have a strong marital foundation.

I think the OP was suggesting that Aikido today seems to either sit on one side of the fence or the other and lacks balance between the Martial and the Spiritual. On this note I agree with them, but you do need to have two sides to a fence, otherwise what is it?

Cliff Judge
06-27-2011, 11:26 AM
I think the OP was suggesting that Aikido today seems to either sit on one side of the fence or the other and lacks balance between the Martial and the Spiritual. On this note I agree with them, but you do need to have two sides to a fence, otherwise what is it?

He was actually saying that if your training is not structured according to his understanding of Saito Sensei's approach you are not actually doing Aikido.

jester
06-27-2011, 01:21 PM
Tomiki was requested by Ueshiba Family not to call what his was doing Aikido.

Yeah, I would agree. The teaching methods are so different and focus is on completely different ideas.

In my experience, the Tomiki Aikido I learned is closer to Miyama Ryu Jujitsu than other styles of Aikido I've seen. Nelson Andujar teaches both USAF and Miyama Ryu and I'm totally confused with the USAF stuff but feel more at home with the Jujitsu.

The founder of Miyama Ryu learned Aikido from Kisshomaru Ueshiba and studied at the Kodokan and it's interesting to see how he combined all the arts.

-

sakumeikan
06-27-2011, 01:48 PM
Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum; qui victoriam cupit, milites imbuat diligenter; qui secundos optat eventus, dimicet arte, non casu. Nemo provocare, nemo audet offendere, quem intellegit superiorem esse pugnaturum. Flavius Vegetius.
Salve Demetrio,
O me miserum,vale Joe.

Dave de Vos
06-27-2011, 02:50 PM
Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum; qui victoriam cupit, milites imbuat diligenter; qui secundos optat eventus, dimicet arte, non casu. Nemo provocare, nemo audet offendere, quem intellegit superiorem esse pugnaturum. Flavius Vegetius.

Tried to find a translation. This is what I could make of it:

So, who wants peace, prepares for war. Who wants to achieve victory, trains his soldiers with diligence. Who aspires to success, fights with strategy, not leaving anything to chance. No one dares to provoke or offend whom he knows to be superior in combat.

Flavius Vegetius (on Miltary Matters)

Tim Ruijs
06-27-2011, 03:35 PM
Sun Tzu - art of war comes to mind reading this...:D

LinTal
07-14-2011, 01:59 AM
This may have already come out and I've missed it, or maybe it doesn't need to because of reasons my inexperience hasn't let me see. Maybe I'm misunderstanding. But maybe everything's a whole lot simpler than we think it is.

At the moment I'm reading 'The Art of Peace' by O'Sensei at the moment. He says:

The techniques of the Wap of Peace change constantly... Today's techniques will be different tomorrow. Do not get caught up with the form and appearence of a challenge. The Art of Peace has no form - it is the study of the spirit.

And

Train hard, experience the light ansd warmth of the Art of Peace, and become a true person... It will have a different expression in each place it takes root. Continually adapt the teachings and create a beautiful environment.

And

Absorb the venerable traditions into this new art by clothing them with fresh garments, and build on the classic styles to create better forms.

So perhaps it has changed from what he taught, but hasn't actually diverged.

Diana Frese
07-14-2011, 07:25 AM
Thanks for the inspirational quotes from O Sensei. Great way to start the day. I think I'll copy them and put them up on a bulletin board in the house as reminders, and if I teach again and there is a bulletin board there .... then there also.

Of course, I'll still study the traditional Aikido forms, as you seem to be saying. I look forward to training with people again, and to meeting old friends and new, and of course visiting some of my teachers, it has been many years since I saw them.

Looking forward to checking out your posts, they are valuable. Thanks! :)

LinTal
07-23-2011, 09:00 PM
What a great way to refocus! Thanks, still trying to find my feet though. :) Let us know how the visits go to your teachers! It would be interesting to see if their aikido is the way you remember.

Diana Frese
07-24-2011, 05:56 PM
Hi Selin,

Thanks for your kind reply. I saw Yamada Sensei at a class he taught at a friend of my husband's and mine's dojo here in town. Back in 2003 and a video or so, though my dial up computer has trouble with downloads and doesn't seem to be able to do them at all recently. In his case it seems the same as always and to be sure my friends and I admire it just the way it is. But one of my senpai's from the old New York Aikikai now seems to have a different form from before, but still very good.

I've been thinking about writing him or asking our friend here, since he visited here before Yamada Sensei did. Then with permission I will mention his name. Sorry to be so mysterious. However, Yamada Sensei in an editorial said he doesn't expect everyone to look like him, since everyone has a different body structure, maybe personality, etc. I'll try to find the quote. Yamada Sensei mentioned singing as an example, he admires Frank Sinatra but doesn't try to imitate him.

I guess I'd better find the article so you can read it for yourself. For now, I'll just say that one of my former students, who moved back to Long Island, has attended his seminars and really likes them, probably for the energy and the clarity....

As for the senpai I mentioned, another student of mine had moved to Maine and when I mentioned "lion paw" and to see if she thought his technique reminded her of that she agreed. I don't know how else to describe it. Strong, but catlike.

I guess I'd better get permission, then recommend a video for the Aiki Web viewers, or everyone will say I've gone into the Twilight Zone or something. I just have difficulty with the usual way of describing techniques.... and I have to admit, there is a lot of controversy on Aiki Web, so I'll just recommend people check these things out for themselves.

I hope I've taken the first step in answering your question by giving an example of two major teachers, one who seems same as always and one who seemed surprisingly different from what I remembered.

But 2011 is a new decade so you're right, I should go visit them and my other teachers and senpai's .... thanks again and good luck in your further studies and in finding people to train with if your job involves relocation...

Diana Frese
07-24-2011, 06:10 PM
Oops, I'd better stop being mysterious. The senpai is Harvey Konigsberg, from the old NY Aikikai and my former student who lives up in Maine attended a seminar and said she agreed about the "lion paw" aspect, strong but subtle, I'm just not very good at technical descriptions as I said before.

The other former student of mine that I mentioned attended Yamada Sensei's seminars and really likes them. She also likes Sioux Hall (one of Kanai Sensei's students) and I think she also took class with Laura Pavlik, and liked the class very much.
(I'm starting to sound like Facebook with all the "likes")

I write to Yamada Sensei from time to time just to say hi, now I'll have to write to Harvey and hope he doesn't mind about the "lion paw" description.

It's great to read about relatively new, and very enthusiastic students so thanks again for your posts, I'll keep reading.

Ken McGrew
09-02-2011, 05:39 PM
Welcome to the Tower of Babel.

Students should do what their sensei tells them to do, or find a new teacher. I'm sure that most live in students of O'Sensei attempted to teach what they learned from him. It's insulting to say they just did their own thing. Despite the best intentions, the question are we doing what O'Sensei would have us do seems appropriate to ask.

I find it frustrating when people claim to be doing the real O'Sensei Aikido and that others are not, and yet they present no evidence rather than verbal accounts where words can mean different things to different teachers.

We are fortunate to have video footage of O'Sensei demonstrating Aikido. We also have footage of his students practicing Aikido under his supervision. We also have statements that O'Sensei himself made. If you ignore O'Sensei's words then perhaps it is you who are not doing O'Sensei's art. Any cursory review of the footage of O'Sensei and his students evidences that O'Sensei was teaching leading, blending, and projecting, and that he expected cooperative ukemi. He was demonstrating and teaching exactly the Aikido and approach to training Aikido that this thread was meant to dismiss as somehow not his Aikido. It's just so through the looking glass to make such arguments.

There is a difference between training "what works" today and training in such a manner, in the system O'Sensei perfected later in life, to eventually approach the higher levels of Aikido. It is a system that allows us to learn what cannot be directly observed and is not merely physical. Do a search of "takemuso" on this forum. Then do a search of "technique." I take that as evidence that the vast majority of contributors to the threads on this forum may not be doing O'Sensei's Aikido. Aikido is not a collection of techniques.

roadtoad
03-11-2012, 01:27 AM
M. Saito's knees went out on him when he was about 35. He changed o'sensei's idea of ikkyo omote forever. The ikkyo omote everyone does now days, even the third daisho, is really, Saito's, 'my knees went out on me' Ikkyo omote. And is not the way o'sensei wanted it done.
Video clips that prove that are almost impossible to find, but, the first few seconds of that clip from 1935, shows o'sensei stretching uke's loins in ikkyo omote, quite unlike the way everyone does it now.
I'll try to find it in a few days, but I'm away from town now.

roadtoad
03-11-2012, 08:21 PM
o.k., if you watch the first 5 seconds of the throws in tachiwaza, you will see o'sensei doing ikkyo omote the way he wanted it, quite exaggerated, but still, along the way that he wanted it done, he wanted you to actually enter uke's attack, and stretch his loins. There were a lot of other tricks to keep uke in place, such as stepping on his forward foot. This is quite different than the ikkyo omote used in almost all aikido dojos today.
Another, favorite saying of o'sensei was 'Even I don't know if I'm doing ikkyo omote right.'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7Cfpay1X2c

Carsten Möllering
03-12-2012, 06:18 AM
o.k., if you watch the first 5 seconds of the throws in tachiwaza, you will see o'sensei doing ikkyo omote the way he wanted it, ...
We do this.
But we call it ikkyo nage. We differentiate it from ikkyo done as pin.

roadtoad
03-12-2012, 08:38 AM
Good, that's a beginning. This is the way o'sensei wanted ikkyo omote done. It would use the real principle of irimi, or entering. In the old days, you would see nage start this throw, and then, if he didn't have the full advantage on uke, nage woul run uke clear across the dojo, just to turn him over. The idea is to enter a super fast guy's attack, a fast karateka, or a boxer, to uplift him, stretch his loins, twist him over and down.
I'm surprised anyone still uses it in any fashion. Doshu doesn't, Saito's son doesn't. Few use this anymore.
There may be other videos around that show it a little better, but, I haven't been able to find them.

phitruong
03-12-2012, 12:38 PM
before the westerners shown up in Japan, Japanese tent to have the similar build. when westerner shown up, i believed various Asian martial arts made changes to accommodate the different builds. I was watching the show on the life of Bruce Lee on TV last night. They shown the scene in the Game of Death where Bruce fought against Kareem Abdul Jabbar. I was thinking if someone with the build of Bruce doing ikkyo on someone like Kareem, exactly the way O Sensei shown, that wouldn't work very well. For one thing, Kareem would just pick up his arm and toss that person across the room like a basketball or pick up his arm and let you dangle, running in mid-air.

gregstec
03-12-2012, 01:38 PM
before the westerners shown up in Japan, Japanese tent to have the similar build. when westerner shown up, i believed various Asian martial arts made changes to accommodate the different builds. I was watching the show on the life of Bruce Lee on TV last night. They shown the scene in the Game of Death where Bruce fought against Kareem Abdul Jabbar. I was thinking if someone with the build of Bruce doing ikkyo on someone like Kareem, exactly the way O Sensei shown, that wouldn't work very well. For one thing, Kareem would just pick up his arm and toss that person across the room like a basketball or pick up his arm and let you dangle, running in mid-air.

To me, techniques are just manifestations of principles, and which one you apply is determined by what is being presented to you at any given moment. When being attacked by a giant, the last thing I would want to do is extend him up - it would be more like bring him down with a nice atemi shot to his knee; which of course would be at my eyeball height :D

Greg

lars beyer
03-12-2012, 01:40 PM
o.k., if you watch the first 5 seconds of the throws in tachiwaza, you will see o'sensei doing ikkyo omote the way he wanted it, quite exaggerated, but still, along the way that he wanted it done, he wanted you to actually enter uke's attack, and stretch his loins. There were a lot of other tricks to keep uke in place, such as stepping on his forward foot. This is quite different than the ikkyo omote used in almost all aikido dojos today.
Another, favorite saying of o'sensei was 'Even I don't know if I'm doing ikkyo omote right.'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7Cfpay1X2c

Hi.
I guess what is seen in the youtube clip is ikkyo omote ki no nagare (with a throw) prewar style aiki budo. I believe it was not originally taught the way it is demonstrated here which is indeed very high level. Chances are also that Oīsensei altered the technique later on, at least Aikido as we know it today
(in all itīs various shapes and sizes) didnīt exist in itīs modern form(s) in 1935 even the basic elements are evident in this video.
In Budo, the edition that Aikidojournal published all the different basic techniques are discussed and there are also a dvd available where Morihiro Saito Shihan demonstrates the various Aiki budo techniques the way he was
taught. Very interresting indeed.
I also hear that many assumptions on aikido techniques comes from watching Oīsensei performing in flowing form and itīs clear that the basic elements of each technique are not visible to the naked eye.
Adding sword and staff to aikido came later and the teaching methods evolved as well.
And what is shown is the highest possible level which Oīsensei later on referred to as Takemusu Aikido.
Thats why we need to trust Oīsenseis students and their students when they tell us what the basic forms look like. Itīs not possible to judge by simply watching a couple of youtube clips with Oīsensei demonstrating his techniques.
Personally I go for those lineages that have a long lasting "personal" relationship with Oīsensei but this doesnīt mean I reject anything as being invalid or false just because it canīt be proved to be historically correct.
But again itīs hard to prove scientifically what is auenthentic, but ongoing historical research does point in certain directions I believe.
Itīs interresting to read Ellis Amdur and Peter Goldsbury and I also like very much to read Stanley Pranin but offcourse also the second Doshuīs book "A life in Aikido" is highly interresting I feel.
:)
Peace
Lars

Marc Abrams
03-12-2012, 03:02 PM
Good, that's a beginning. This is the way o'sensei wanted ikkyo omote done. It would use the real principle of irimi, or entering. In the old days, you would see nage start this throw, and then, if he didn't have the full advantage on uke, nage woul run uke clear across the dojo, just to turn him over. The idea is to enter a super fast guy's attack, a fast karateka, or a boxer, to uplift him, stretch his loins, twist him over and down.
I'm surprised anyone still uses it in any fashion. Doshu doesn't, Saito's son doesn't. Few use this anymore.
There may be other videos around that show it a little better, but, I haven't been able to find them.

Ike:

You spoke of having a private interview with O'Sense and you talk in this thread about how O'Sensei wanted things done. Could you kindly let us know when you studied at the hombu dojo in Japan? Some background into your martial arts experience would be greatly appreciated.

thank you in advance.

Marc Abrams

Chicko Xerri
03-12-2012, 05:26 PM
"Keep an upright posture Body, Mind, Heart. here is where success lays. Be careful not to keep your feet too far apart, exaggeration disregards Aiki, there will be your undoing.

roadtoad
03-12-2012, 08:53 PM
I studied at Azuma air base under Isoyama, who was a uchideska at hombu since he was 12 in 1949.
He was the youngest ever 6th dan, age 25, or possibly even younger. Saito was technically my instructor, because o'sensei wanted Saito to teach Isoyama. I was there from '63 to '68. I only went to actual Iwama once, in '66, for about 3 days, we stayed in o'sensei's actual house, because the new iwama dojo was still being built. The other times I met o'sensei was at hombu. Also, that would be the only place we would meet with Saito, who came down from Iwama. Saito couldn't come to Azuma, he didn't have a base pass.
When Kissomaru ueshiba kicked Tohei out, even though it was probably necessary, I quit.
I haven't been in a dojo in 40 years, except maybe to just 'look in' for a moment.
I'm not even a white belt now. I don't plan to come back until I can develop the 'high ki', maybe not at o'sensei's level, but at a level you would expect out of a 8th or 9th dan, in the old days.
I fully plan to suceed.
I just work out in my garage now, with my marine colonel buddy, and a couple of my grandsons.
I'm also mega cripple, after two strokes, four sezures,and two bycycle wrecks, I probably should be in a hospital, but I plan a full recovery, I'll be back in the game in a year or two.

Chris Li
03-12-2012, 09:05 PM
I studied at Azuma air base under Isoyama, who was a uchideska at hombu since he was 12 in 1949.
He was the youngest ever 6th dan, age 25, or possibly even younger. Saito was technically my instructor, because o'sensei wanted Saito to teach Isoyama. I was there from '63 to '68. I only went to actual Iwama once, in '66, for about 3 days, we stayed in o'sensei's actual house, because the new iwama dojo was still being built. The other times I met o'sensei was at hombu. Also, that would be the only place we would meet with Saito, who came down from Iwama. Saito couldn't come to Azuma, he didn't have a base pass.
When Kissomaru ueshiba kicked Tohei out, even though it was probably necessary, I quit.
I haven't been in a dojo in 40 years, except maybe to just 'look in' for a moment.
I'm not even a white belt now. I don't plan to come back until I can develop the 'high ki', maybe not at o'sensei's level, but at a level you would expect out of a 8th or 9th dan, in the old days.
I fully plan to suceed.
I just work out in my garage now, with my marine colonel buddy, and a couple of my grandsons.
I'm also mega cripple, after two strokes, four sezures,and two bycycle wrecks, I probably should be in a hospital, but I plan a full recovery, I'll be back in the game in a year or two.

Isoyama always gave me the impression that he considered Ueshiba his only instructor, but you know how these things go. :)

I'm not sure that Tohei could be considered "kicked out" - there's a fair amount of evidence that he was planning his exit from the early 1970's.

Best,

Chris