Being a good uke.

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[Dave Plaza]

OK, not sure what section this should be in but some advice would be most appreciated.

A couple of days ago my lesson was, how to be a uke. A wonderful lesson and a good and welcomed look at what I can only describe now as an art in itself.

So the next day I wake for work... I wake but can't move, "why can't I move my neck?"...

Probably because I hit the mat incorrectly so many times... Well, that's the reason for sure. It was a combination of too much fear and age, and a lack of knowledge and skill... that led me to feeling this way...

Now! I so want to be a good uke, and now I totally understand the difference in a good and bad breakfall... I know now that I must blend and I know kind of how to flip over... but because I got injured (nearly better now) I still have fears..

So what I'm asking is... Could any of you peeps be so kind as to point me in the direction of good youtube vids that you think show a good uke? And hopefully I can get some tips pointers from it.

Many thanks

Dave

[guest1234567]

Perhaps somebody can show you a good video, I cannot learn from a video, I must practice to learn.
I think you must forget your fears and try to relax your body as much as possible

[Janet Rosen]

Because each style of aikido has its own version of "appropriate ukemi", generally with good reason because they each have their own version of the appropriate angle for a particular throw, I'd suggest
1) search on youtube by videos by the shihan most closely affiliated with your dojo or under whom your instructor studied the most
2) ask your instructor.

[patf]

I presume you are focussing mostly on the falling aspect of ukemi here so...

I think videos are a great way of learning, especially ukemi, but of course you have to practice what you see.
I think you are doing the right thing. Unfortunately many dojos don't really teach ukemi, outside from a few short digressions from the main training. Some people are naturally good at it, some people like me have to work hard at it. I myself had my ukemi eyes opened when I attended Jeff Sodermans Ukemi Seminar in San Diego. I came away from that seminar realizing that theres so much more to it than tuck&roll and my ukemi improved significantly (by applying the techniques I learned at the seminar) over time.

Don't worry about making your ukemi too specific to your style, a good sound base will work in any situation. The important thing is do something you are comfortable with and to avoid injury. You can always adjust your ukemi later when you are comfortable with what you have.

Some good search words for youTube...

Ukemi Core training (search for this text)

any of the Guido videos (by MusicNazis) search for (Musicnazi falls)

That Guido guy is amazing, I especially love the way he stands up in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uZLKvhWCqA, looks almost unreal. It's nice to see such a big guy being so soft.

Good luck and be patient.

P.S google also for makko ho, it's a set of Japanese stretches, most of which will be familiar to you as warmup stretches. Doing these at home before going to bed will help keep your body supple and will help with your ukemi practice.

[Shadowfax]

The most useful videos I found were one called The art of falling volume one and some of the utube videos by Donovan Waite sensei. But really the best thing I did was spend a lot of time rolling around on my living room floor trying to teach my body to move right.

[danj]

any of the Guido videos (by MusicNazis) search for (Musicnazi falls)

That Guido guy is amazing, I especially love the way he stands up in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uZLKvhWCqA, looks almost unreal. It's nice to see such a big guy being so soft.

I got the 'music nazis' to put pen to paper - along with other contributors for a series of articles, rants and assorted video clips here
http://www.aikidorepublic.com/aikido-ukemi

dan

[patf]

I got the 'music nazis' to put pen to paper - along with other contributors for a series of articles, rants and assorted video clips here
http://www.aikidorepublic.com/aikido-ukemi

dan

Just finished visiting your link.

Excellent, well done.

[Dave Plaza]

Thanks everyone for your input :)

Because each style of aikido has its own version of "appropriate ukemi", generally with good reason because they each have their own version of the appropriate angle for a particular throw,.

Wow, i didn't know that ukemi was specific to the style of aikido... I just thought that ukemi was the safest/most effective way to take a fall, and regardless of whatever style of aikido, a fall would always be a fall, and the safest way would always be the safest way.

That Guido guy is amazing, I especially love the way he stands up in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uZLKvhWCqA, looks almost unreal. It's nice to see such a big guy being so soft.

Ha, that's pretty cool stuff... That's definately what I aspire for :)

But really the best thing I did was spend a lot of time rolling around on my living room floor trying to teach my body to move right.

Now the neck is better I'm gonna drag the mattress out into the living room tomorrow and give this a shot :)

Thanks

Dave

[patf]

Ha, that's pretty cool stuff... That's definately what I aspire for :)


You know now that I've looked at that video a few times, I'm convinced that it's clever camera trick, where it's actually a backwards fall played in reverse. (based on the way the hakama seems to slide up his legs). The rest of the video is then in normal forward motion. The sound was all messed up for me so I couldn't based on that.

[Janet Rosen]

Wow, i didn't know that ukemi was specific to the style of aikido... I just thought that ukemi was the safest/most effective way to take a fall, and regardless of whatever style of aikido, a fall would always be a fall, and the safest way would always be the safest way.

Glad you are on the mend!
In principle you are right...but....
some dojos insist the "inside leg" should go down first, others that the "outside leg" should go first, and each will instruct you on why. some dojos insist the foot should go down "toes live" and others "toes tucked under" and each will instruct you on why. some insist turning into front roll or breakfall is optimal way for any throw, others that it is rarely needed and backfalls are optimal, and each will instruct you on why.
And what I've found is...there is a reason, based on how in each dojo techniques are applied or the trajectory of throws, for the preferred ukemi.
So, yeah, the BEST thing is to have all the above in your repertoire so that "when in Rome" you are always safe... but when working on learning ukemi the best thing is to learn based on the convention taught within your dojo/style.

[lbb]

In our dojo, learning ukemi is pretty much a continual thing. When someone is brand new, sensei may have the whole class go through a basic backward fall, or may not, but when we pair off to do the first technique, the new person will be paired with the most senior student, and the focus will be on the ukemi rather than the technique...details elided because, as Janet says, our "right way" could be some other dojo's "wrong way". Then, on every successive technique, the new person will get help from their partner, who will work at an appropriate level. When you're working with a new person, the technique never becomes the focus until the ukemi is safe and reliable.

Usually, fairly early on (often in the first class), the new person will also become introduced to ikkyo and the ukemi for it, and often also introduced to a forward roll -- sensei's got a whole series of progressive exercises for that. And then, as sensei is demonstrating techniques, he will point out correct ukemi and will watch for problems as students are practicing. If someone's doing ukemi incorrectly, it's time to stop, ditch the technique and go back to basics.

So, in summary, I guess I don't have any specific tips for how to do ukemi, given that I don't know how it's supposed to be done in your dojo...but I do like our dojo's approach to teaching and learning ukemi. I find that our new students are very clear and very specific on the mechanics what they're supposed to do -- they lack the practice of actually doing it, sure, but that's why we practice with them the way we do. And they don't have vague ideas like "I know now that I must blend and I know kind of how to flip over", which to be honest kind of scares me. I want my uke to know what they're supposed to do, no matter how unpracticed at it they are -- we'll just work at their speed or in a progression that works for them. I don't want an uke who wings it because they're not very clear on what they're supposed to do.

[guest1234567]

In our dojo, learning ukemi is pretty much a continual thing. When someone is brand new, sensei may have the whole class go through a basic backward fall, or may not, but when we pair off to do the first technique, the new person will be paired with the most senior student,.

In our dojo we usually start after warming up with ukemis like the video I put in" neko ukemi" and one of our nidan or shodan takes a corner of the dojo to practice ukemis with the brand news.
Beginning with the techniques the teacher expects from all of the higher grades to go voluntarily and be tori an uke for the newbies. Our teacher dislikes the 3, 2 or 1 kyu guys who always are looking for higher grades to train, thats why sometimes he does an excepcional class like I described in " Breaking the will of the ego".

[Dave Plaza]

I think that my basic forward and backward ukemi are okay... need some work, but there's a pretty good foundation there to build upon... What's killing me is, for example, taking ukemi from kote-gaeshi...

Okay, how to explain this?!?

When I'm taking ukemi from kote-gaeshi what I tend to do is fall backwards and slap the mat rather than twisting into the movement and mirroring tori, then flipping over my arm... hope i've explained this well enough to understand.

The flipping over the arm part, I just can't grasp this... I've tried and tried. I'm not sure how I'm ever going to get this right in my head.

Thanks to everyone for the input...

[guest1234567]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKlKtIkcl1Q

I hope this will help you..
have a nice evening:)

[Dave Plaza]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKlKtIkcl1Q

I hope this will help you..
have a nice evening:)

it kind of helps, thanks :)

I just need to watch it a billion times to burn it into my brain.

Have a nice evening too.

[ramenboy]

haven't read through all the replies, but i'm sure someone's mentioned that being a 'good uke' isn't just learning to breakfall...

there's some great videos of nice looking falls, but ukemi itself, or like you've said ( and i agree) the 'art' of ukemi isn't just that.

here's a great article/interview with the instructor whos' taught me learn what ukemi is.

http://www.stagesekisensei.com/Interviews/Uke_gb.pdf

good luck!

[lbb]

I think that my basic forward and backward ukemi are okay... need some work, but there's a pretty good foundation there to build upon... What's killing me is, for example, taking ukemi from kote-gaeshi...

I think that the ukemi for kotegaeshi typically is a backward fall. It's just more demanding than the backward falls from some other techniques, because nage is holding onto you. Thus, you can't just topple like a tree (which is not good for any technique, but really a bad idea for kotegaeshi) -- you have to learn to stay close. And, honestly, I think you're going to make out much better learning from your instructor than trying to teach yourself with videos on the internet. Presumably there are seniors at your dojo who can demonstrate good ukemi for kotegaeshi and can also look at what you're doing and give you some good pointers to improve your ukemi.

[Shadowfax]

I really like the break fall out of kotegaeshi more than the back fall. Of course which I use depends on the situation at hand. I only just learned this ukemi a few months ago. One thing that helped me to get it dowen was to take forward rolls out of it at a slower speed in order toget accustomed to the pattern. Just have nage drop your hand lower instead of holding you up for the break fall and let you take your own roll out of it. Of course discuss this with your sensei first and see if he/she approves and can help you with this.

[lbb]

I really like the break fall out of kotegaeshi more than the back fall.

Back fall, break fall, I don't much care about what terminology is used. Good safe ukemi is good safe ukemi, and I don't think the best way to learn it is over the interwebs.

[raul rodrigo]

Jerome, you beat me to it. The Seki article sums up for me what good ukemi is.

[patf]

Back fall, break fall, I don't much care about what terminology is used. Good safe ukemi is good safe ukemi, and I don't think the best way to learn it is over the interwebs.

I agree completely. The best way is for someone at your dojo to teach you step by step. It's important to have the person instructing you, be able to give feedback and correct bad habits you may not notice yourself developing.

That being said, for a lot of people, it takes a lot of time to learn the more advanced ukemi properly and a lot of learners or senior class members don't always have the time to spend doing that during regular classes. Many dojos are strictly time limited so there isn't often the luxury to practice before/after class. Also not all senior students make good instructors. I've seen many naturally gifted senior students who do great ukemi but just can't break what they do down into suitable form/steps for a beginner to learn. To them it just worked from day 1.

Good instructional videos can really help and motivate you to practice at home. IMO as an uke you need to take personal responsibiity to ensure your ukemi is at the appropriate level to prevent yourself from getting hurt and if practicing at home using instructional videos works for you, then that's great. Just make sure you get someone to eyeball your progress for at least a few minutes every few classes or so, at your dojo.

Don't take a kotegaeshi breakfalls if you aren't comfortable with them, and even if you never feel comfortable with high breakfalls, don't worry, just don't do them.
The goal is to practice long and practice safe. No one will fault you for never doing a high breakfall.

[guest1234567]

it kind of helps, thanks :)

I just need to watch it a billion times to burn it into my brain.

Have a nice evening too.

I know that feeling, I either don't learn from a video, but pls be patient, if I could learn it, everybody can:)
I'll ask you in a year again, then you will do great ukemis..

[Eva Antonia]

Dear Dave and others,

when thinking about "being a good uke" I wouldn't limit that to good ukemi. I'm doing brilliant ukemi on most throws except ushiro otoshi I somehow didn't get the clue how to do it, and still I wouldn't think I'm a good uke.

There are many other errors you should avoid for being a good uke:
- bad attacks (wrong distance, wrong angle, not focussed...)
- just stopping in front of tori when being supposed to do a dynamic attack
- not reacting appropriately to tori's movements, turning to the wrong directions or whatever
- understanding wrongly tori's movements and responding wrongly (for example, thinking he threw you while he had something else in mind...)
- resisting too much or being too compliant

I commit them all, so even with the safest and most beautiful ukemi I still have much to learn to become a good uke...

It's a long journey!

Best regards,

Eva

[amoeba]

I second Eva's post - I guess I can do breakfalls without problems from most techniques. But that's just such a small step on the way to become a good uke! I've traines with a few brilliant ukes and it's just the whole package that makes them so good: from the attack to the fall, and especially everything in between. And the it's just fun to traing with them...
For me, this is the most interesting part of Aikido at the moment... I think I'm getting better at it (e.g. not be too light as an attacker, that's a problem I've always had...), but it's still a long way to go!:)

[ramenboy]

Jerome, you beat me to it. The Seki article sums up for me what good ukemi is.

hahaha raul, i guess all filipinos think alike :P

at any rate, anyways, seki sensei is a great teacher. for the first three years at least, that's all i did was take ukemi for sensei at summer camp. he helped me realize that ukemi isn't just falling.

being 'good uke' is giving a good, sincere attack, always being in good hanmi and absorb tori's technique with your whole body.

[George S. Ledyard]

The role of the uke is to enhance the learning of the nage. the uke is a partner, not an opponent. To this end uke needs to deliver an attack that has content and maintain his structure as best he can. If he or she has that structure compromised, they should recover as quickly as possible. If recovery isn't possible, they should be taking the Fall.

It is a mistaken idea that uke should be trying to stop the partner if possible, that this is somehow the more martial way of practicing. Uke and nage are BOTH training. They are training to do the same thing. So if uke decides to dispute the space with nage and then as nage he is supposed to be learning not to do this, the body and mind just get confused. Uke and nage should be doing the same thing in each role, namely staying connected and relaxed.

On the other hand, it's probably worse for nage to have people tanking for him. If the uke is colluding, no one has any idea at all whether something is really working or not. Also, all of the energetic cues nage keys off on are wrong and energetically false. It not only isn't beneficial to train with ukes who are tanking but it's actually detrimental.

A good uke's job is to force nage to do the technique properly. He is not there to stop the technique and he isn't there to collude. A great uke sees what ukemi the Sensei got when he demonstrated and then attempts to give his partner exactly the same ukemi that Sensei just got fro his uke. If he is good at this, the technique that is natural and logical from the attack will be the same technique that was demonstrated. Too many folks think their job is to screw up the technique, when of course, they already know what's coming. That's silly and has nothing to do with good martial arts. In a real confrontation, you have no idea what's coming.

[Janet Rosen]

Thank you for the above - great post on uke's role!

[Demetrio Cereijo]

A good uke's job is to force nage to do the technique properly. He is not there to stop the technique and he isn't there to collude.
What do you suggest to force nage to do the technique properly without stopping nage when he/she is doing the technique wrong.

If nage's technique is wrong uke's structure and balance haven't been taken, or have been recovered. Then the waza stops.

[ramenboy]

more great reading about ukemi from one of my sempai:

http://www.aikiweb.com/training/tomoleoni1.html

[Ryan Seznee]

OK, not sure what section this should be in but some advice would be most appreciated.

A couple of days ago my lesson was, how to be a uke. A wonderful lesson and a good and welcomed look at what I can only describe now as an art in itself.

So the next day I wake for work... I wake but can't move, "why can't I move my neck?"...

Probably because I hit the mat incorrectly so many times... Well, that's the reason for sure. It was a combination of too much fear and age, and a lack of knowledge and skill... that led me to feeling this way...

Now! I so want to be a good uke, and now I totally understand the difference in a good and bad breakfall... I know now that I must blend and I know kind of how to flip over... but because I got injured (nearly better now) I still have fears..

So what I'm asking is... Could any of you peeps be so kind as to point me in the direction of good youtube vids that you think show a good uke? And hopefully I can get some tips pointers from it.

Many thanks

Dave

Don't bother with videos. If your instructor can't do the ukemi, you won't be able to ether. Ask him/her for help, and if that doesn't work, go train under someone else.

[Gary Petrison]

Donovan Waite's "Meeting the Mat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OaicleoK4M)" video is one of the best.

[RED]

Don't bother with videos. If your instructor can't do the ukemi, you won't be able to ether. Ask him/her for help, and if that doesn't work, go train under someone else.

I think sometimes books and videos are helpful... but I agree; if you train under a Sensei for so many years and can't do it right still, what video or book can help you?

[George S. Ledyard]

What do you suggest to force nage to do the technique properly without stopping nage when he/she is doing the technique wrong.

If nage's technique is wrong uke's structure and balance haven't been taken, or have been recovered. Then the waza stops.

I am not saying that if nage makes a mistake, like pushing or pulling, tensing up, etc. that I fall down. If nage hits my structure the technique stops dead (with lower level people; wit seniors I revers them). But I do not train with the intention of stopping them. I train with the intention to connect to their center. If it's a strike, I am really striking. If it's a grab, it is a grab that is capable of moving their center. I maintain my alignment and structure throughout, if possible. So if the technique stops, it is because the partner ran into my structure, not because I tried to stop him. No one ever won a fight by stopping the other guys movement, you have to be able to take the other guys center.

My rule of thumb is that uke should never do anything with his body that doesn't make sense martially. So tensing up and hunkering down, which so many think is good training is really the opposite. When I see these fellows at a seminar I am teaching I will call them up for ukemi. I then place my hand on their outstretched arm and tell them to make themselves immovable. I then smack the guy upside the head with my hand. Then I say, protect yourself... when he moves to protect himself, I tell him no, be immovable. Even the biggest dope pretty quickly figures out that he can only do one of those things. The instant at which he tightens up to be immovable, he is open and cannot protect himself. The instant he gets responsive enough to protect himself, he is movable.

Now the internal power guys can be quite difficult to move without tensing up. That's a different matter. They simply have a very strong and integrated structure. They can be just about un-throwable and still be relaxed. But they are not doing anything in their role that compromises their freedom to respond or move as needed by the situation. So, once again, it has to do with ones intention. It is not the uke's intention to stop nage. It is his intention to maintain proper alignment and structure and stay connected with nage so that his attack can effect nage. The instant that ability is compromised, ukemi should happen immediately because his position is then untenable.

[guest1234567]

I

The instant at which he tightens up to be immovable, he is open and cannot protect himself. The instant he gets responsive enough to protect himself, he is movable.

Our teacher is always showing that, he is as good uke even with a brand new one

[amoeba]

I am not saying that if nage makes a mistake, like pushing or pulling, tensing up, etc. that I fall down. If nage hits my structure the technique stops dead (with lower level people; wit seniors I revers them). But I do not train with the intention of stopping them. I train with the intention to connect to their center. If it's a strike, I am really striking. If it's a grab, it is a grab that is capable of moving their center. I maintain my alignment and structure throughout, if possible. So if the technique stops, it is because the partner ran into my structure, not because I tried to stop him. No one ever won a fight by stopping the other guys movement, you have to be able to take the other guys center.

My rule of thumb is that uke should never do anything with his body that doesn't make sense martially. So tensing up and hunkering down, which so many think is good training is really the opposite. When I see these fellows at a seminar I am teaching I will call them up for ukemi. I then place my hand on their outstretched arm and tell them to make themselves immovable. I then smack the guy upside the head with my hand. Then I say, protect yourself... when he moves to protect himself, I tell him no, be immovable. Even the biggest dope pretty quickly figures out that he can only do one of those things. The instant at which he tightens up to be immovable, he is open and cannot protect himself. The instant he gets responsive enough to protect himself, he is movable.

Now the internal power guys can be quite difficult to move without tensing up. That's a different matter. They simply have a very strong and integrated structure. They can be just about un-throwable and still be relaxed. But they are not doing anything in their role that compromises their freedom to respond or move as needed by the situation. So, once again, it has to do with ones intention. It is not the uke's intention to stop nage. It is his intention to maintain proper alignment and structure and stay connected with nage so that his attack can effect nage. The instant that ability is compromised, ukemi should happen immediately because his position is then untenable.

Great post! I completely agree!

[Alberto_Italiano]

Dave,

I can tell you only what is my personal idea of a good uke - no claim to setting any universal standard on my part: just the type of uke _I_ find useful.

My ideal uke is twofold - when I learn, he is just passive but does nothing to make things easier for me.
When I _think_ I am ready for some action witb that technique, my ideal uke attacks me without any regard for me - s/he must not matter if I get a big slap on my face, s/he must not matter if i can't tenkan fast enough and s/he pushes me on the ground, s/he must aim directly at me with weapons and not at my sides, s/he must remeber s/he has two arms and use both.

In turn, I will not project him/her. I will just go till I get a grab and i am completing 80/85% of the technique.

So, to me, a good uke is the one who makes me this favour: fight me like a guy who wants to hit me and maul me badly in the street would do. Anything that falls short of this, is working against my hopes of developing an _effective_ aikido and deluding me into the certainty that I could cope with a real attacker when in reality I can't.

The good uke, my good uke, is the one against whom my techniques would most likely fail and that sends me home frustrated and with a deep sense of my inadequacy against a determined adversary.

[Randall Lim]

OK, not sure what section this should be in but some advice would be most appreciated.

A couple of days ago my lesson was, how to be a uke. A wonderful lesson and a good and welcomed look at what I can only describe now as an art in itself.

So the next day I wake for work... I wake but can't move, "why can't I move my neck?"...

Probably because I hit the mat incorrectly so many times... Well, that's the reason for sure. It was a combination of too much fear and age, and a lack of knowledge and skill... that led me to feeling this way...

Now! I so want to be a good uke, and now I totally understand the difference in a good and bad breakfall... I know now that I must blend and I know kind of how to flip over... but because I got injured (nearly better now) I still have fears..

So what I'm asking is... Could any of you peeps be so kind as to point me in the direction of good youtube vids that you think show a good uke? And hopefully I can get some tips pointers from it.

Many thanks

Dave

No videos to recommend here, but just like to share my view.

In my opinion, Uke's primary role in Aikido training is not so much to take a fall without injuring himself. I believe the Aikido Uke's primary role is to be a source of reassurance to Tori that Aiki is felt in his technique (right up to the final release).

So based on this understanding of Uke's role, it all depends on how Tori delivers his Aiki (the speed, angle, timing & power of the dynamics).

For example, if Tori's angle of his final release is directly forward in nature, Uke would have to take a step or two forward first before taking a roll. But if Tori's angle of his final release is steeply downwards, Uke would have to do an immediate tuck downwards and take a roll.

Uke's style of ukemi all depends on how Tori executes his techniques. And Uke must determine his ukemi by "feeling" Tori.

There no ideal style of ukemi except for the one which "feels" Tori & blends with him.

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Ones that don't fall over from a puff of wind.......:D :) ;)

[Paul Crawley]

You know now that I've looked at that video a few times, I'm convinced that it's clever camera trick, where it's actually a backwards fall played in reverse. (based on the way the hakama seems to slide up his legs). The rest of the video is then in normal forward motion. The sound was all messed up for me so I couldn't based on that.

Hi Patrick, the video is actually just forward and backwards rolling played in reverse. We made it because we were playing around and wanted to see/show how similar the two movements are. So each forward roll is one of us rolling backwards and visa versa. Just for the record, we didn't mean for it to be misleading or pretending it is something it's not, it's just mucking around. Cool to hear you liked it.

Cheers,
Paul

[RED]

Donovan Waite's "Meeting the Mat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OaicleoK4M)" video is one of the best.

...that's copy righted. >_<

[patf]

Hi Patrick, the video is actually just forward and backwards rolling played in reverse. We made it because we were playing around and wanted to see/show how similar the two movements are. So each forward roll is one of us rolling backwards and visa versa. Just for the record, we didn't mean for it to be misleading or pretending it is something it's not, it's just mucking around. Cool to hear you liked it.

Cheers,
Paul

It certainly worked, I found it hard to see who was going forward and who was going backward without looking at it a few times.