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arjandevries
06-09-2010, 11:55 PM
Watch here: http://vimeo.com/12232073

eyrie
06-10-2010, 12:54 AM
What are we looking for? Purpose of video?

Russ Q
06-10-2010, 12:23 PM
Nice enbu Arjan. Nice dojo too. How long have you had your own dojo? I ask as I'm in the same situation of having a young dojo with mostly kyu rank students (yonkyu being the highest rank:-).

Cheers,

Russ

arjandevries
06-12-2010, 08:24 AM
Hello Russ,

I am having my own AIkido dojo for 5 years now. My highest is a 3rd kyu.
I am very proud of them!
It is not my dojo. It was a nice place in a big castle. There was a Japan day. Also the calligraphy on the background is not mine. It was from an Iaido group who also were giving demonstrations.
I see in your dojo name Shohei Juku. This means Suganuma Sensei! I know him from 1996. Been there in 2008. Going again next February! I teach "Suganuma Basics" in my dojo. I only did not take my Sandan with him due to the split with the dojo here in Holland in 2006 (Itokan).
What is your story?

Russ Q
06-12-2010, 09:09 AM
Hey Arjan,

My dojo is 2 years old. We're in a small town so only a few students but we are the same as you. We teach Suganuma Sensei basics.... My teacher is Tama Nakashimada sensei, a student of Suganuma Sensei. Her dojo was independent until she invited Suganuma sensei over for a seminar (this, of course, is the short version of the story)....that was fourteen years ago. Tama sensei was given the name Shohei Juku Canada. In 2003, my family and I moved away (not too far). In 2008 we opened a dojo in our town and asked Suganuma Sensei for the name Shohei Juku Gibsons. He said okay:-).

We won't see Suganuma Sensei until next year...I hear he is going to Europe & Israel this June.

Cheers,

Russ

NagaBaba
06-12-2010, 07:09 PM
Hello Arjan,
I have few remarks, it is to help you practice better.

You didn't teach your students how to attack correctly. They just running to you or around you without any martial intent. The consequence of this situation is that your techniques also have no martial sense. Few examples:
- in the moment of throw you are going back - it is simply impossible to throw somebody forward such way.
- you are not centered to the center of attacker. Many times your back is exposed to him. Looks like you are not interested at all by him, instead you are concentrated on your technique.
- there is no 'irimi concept' (physical or mental), and this creates a lot of openings for the counters.Of course your uke are beginners so they think how to make ukemi instead of countering, but with some well trained black belt you will be helpless.
- you are not controlling attacks, you are "slave" of the attacks.
- you posture is sloppy and this fact prevent you from creating real power from your body. Instead you are waving arms like mil.

Very probably you don't do any weapons otherwise your posture and your uke will be different.

niall
06-12-2010, 07:57 PM
I don't like this comment and I don't think it's appropriate.

If you are a higher grade than Arjan and you want to give him some constructive advice, cool. But if you're just going to tell him where he's wrong send him a private message.

If you are not a higher grade than Arjan then leave it to Suganuma Sensei to give him the advice.

There's already enough negative energy and intellectual arrogance in these forums. It's pretty hard to reconcile with the fact that we're all - even the IS guys - supposed to be practising budo with harmony in the name and we're all supposed to understand reigi - respect and courtesy.

niall
06-12-2010, 08:42 PM
Arjan thanks for sharing your demonstration. I can feel the positive energy between you and the ukes. They did a great job. I didn't know Vimeo - it looks good.

oisin bourke
06-12-2010, 09:15 PM
I don't like this comment and I don't think it's appropriate.

If you are a higher grade than Arjan and you want to give him some constructive advice, cool. But if you're just going to tell him where he's wrong send him a private message.

If you are not a higher grade than Arjan then leave it to Suganuma Sensei to give him the advice.

There's already enough negative energy and intellectual arrogance in these forums. It's pretty hard to reconcile with the fact that we're all - even the IS guys - supposed to be practising budo with harmony in the name and we're all supposed to understand reigi - respect and courtesy.
.

I agree. I've seen a lot worse.

One suggestion I have would be your kyu grades to open up their pelvic/lower back area when they attack.

That might help them keep their posture when their balance is gone, so when their balance is taken they can lower the pelvis and keep posture, or at least maintain connection through the technique.

One example of this flexibility is from the ukes in this demonstration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iy9sIDfN0Y&feature=related

Disregard the attacks and the forward weight on one foot and notice how the Ukes try to get their pelvis under the technique.

Anyway just a suggestion. Do with it what you will.

eyrie
06-12-2010, 09:15 PM
I don't like this comment and I don't think it's appropriate. Ah, the conundrum of being "polite" or brutally honest...

Personally, I'd take brutally honest anyday, because honest critique is invaluable if you want to improve and grow. Whether such critique was warranted in the first place is the issue. Hence my earlier question.... what was the purpose of putting up the video?

Otherwise, what's the point? We can all pat each other on the back and say, yeah, nice demo... That'd be the "polite" thing to do, but it doesn't give the OP any feedback other than to, IMO inappropriately, validate the performance.

oisin bourke
06-12-2010, 09:20 PM
Ah, the conundrum of being "polite" or brutally honest...

Personally, I'd take brutally honest anyday, because honest critique is invaluable if you want to improve and grow. Whether such critique was warranted in the first place is the issue. Hence my earlier question.... what was the purpose of putting up the video?

Otherwise, what's the point? We can all pat each other on the back and say, yeah, nice demo... That'd be the "polite" thing to do, but it doesn't give the OP any feedback other than to, IMO inappropriately, validate the performance.

Why can't one be honest AND polite (especially on a public forum)? It doesn't always have to be an either/or thing.

eyrie
06-12-2010, 09:27 PM
Sure. If you can do both, then more power to you, isn't it? ;)

NagaBaba
06-12-2010, 09:41 PM
I don't like this comment and I don't think it's appropriate..
Your personal feelings have nothing to do in this technical discussion. Can you propose better advice then mine to help him? LOL

I'm showing him the only way to improve. Training once a year with his teacher will not improve his aikido. Instead, he must train his students to counter his every technique, so he can learn something EVERY second of such training, not only once a year. In the same time his students will learn a lot more, then by simply falling down without any reason. Mutual benefit - that is the key of such training.

mickeygelum
06-12-2010, 10:25 PM
To All,

Mr. Janczuk was being constructive in his observation, Mr. Bourke.

I agree with Mr. Janczuk and Mr.Teo...when one is getting their ass kicked, who is suppose to be polite ?

I think this demo is exactly why others look upon Aikido as bullshit and useless.

When someone asks for an evaluation of a video, or puts up a video, does the disclaimer need to be " If I suck, don't tell me! "

Personally, I look at this and think to myself, " Nice exercise, but why are you doing it? "

Mickey

Ps...When did telling the truth become a bad thing?

arjandevries
06-13-2010, 12:13 AM
Thank you all for your comments.

The demonstration was to a public who do not know anything about Aikido (neither do I accourding to some :D ).

Fot a lot o people Aikido is their way of doing martial arts. It is not like any other combative martial art. They look at it and see something they might be interested in. If it were a public of martial artists I might do it a bit differently.

Nonetheless, thanks or the advice. I am not worried to get negative advice. As for my ukes; They are not higher then third kyu so don't blame them. The do their best!

Arjan

arjandevries
06-13-2010, 12:24 AM
Hello Arjan,
I have few remarks, it is to help you practice better.

You didn't teach your students how to attack correctly. They just running to you or around you without any martial intent. The consequence of this situation is that your techniques also have no martial sense. Few examples:
- in the moment of throw you are going back - it is simply impossible to throw somebody forward such way.
>> See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtwY3uAMixI the irst seconds. Is this what you mean?
- you are not centered to the center of attacker. Many times your back is exposed to him. Looks like you are not interested at all by him, instead you are concentrated on your technique.
>> I am very interested in my uke and watch them closely in the excersice. I always wait until they are ready to take the ukemi.
- there is no 'irimi concept' (physical or mental), and this creates a lot of openings for the counters.Of course your uke are beginners so they think how to make ukemi instead of countering, but with some well trained black belt you will be helpless.
>> please explain more what your opinion is about this concept so we all can learn.
- you are not controlling attacks, you are "slave" of the attacks.
>> I do not understand
- you posture is sloppy and this fact prevent you from creating real power from your body. Instead you are waving arms like mil.
>> Perhaps style diferences?

Very probably you don't do any weapons otherwise your posture and your uke will be different.
Correct. I am not thought weapons correctly and to teach myself rom video seems not such a good idea. Any suggestions?

Thank you or your reply. Can you explain a bit more? See my comments betweem your quote.

eyrie
06-13-2010, 12:40 AM
when one is getting their ass kicked, who is suppose to be polite? LOL. That depends... is it possible to politely kick someone's ass?

When did telling the truth become a bad thing? You want the truth? You can't stand the truth! :D

eyrie
06-13-2010, 12:59 AM
The demonstration was to a public who do not know anything about Aikido (neither do I accourding to some :D ). Don't sell yourself short. ;) We all had to start somewhere, and the fact that you and your students have done so is kudos in itself.

Fot a lot o people Aikido is their way of doing martial arts. It is not like any other combative martial art. They look at it and see something they might be interested in. If it were a public of martial artists I might do it a bit differently. As far as a demonstration to the general public is concerned, that's fine. If it's merely a marketing exercise, what sort of people do you want to attract?

All I can suggest is, take the comments and feedback here and learn from it.

Just out of curiosity, what would you have done differently, had it been an audience of martial artists, and how/why would it have been different?

arjandevries
06-13-2010, 01:01 AM
Perhaps people can also put video of themselves here to show us how they think how demo (or aikido) should look like. Some links would be helpfull. Images say more then 1000 words don't you agree?

arjandevries
06-13-2010, 01:11 AM
Don't sell yourself short. ;) We all had to start somewhere, and the fact that you and your students have done so is kudos in itself.

As far as a demonstration to the general public is concerned, that's fine. If it's merely a marketing exercise, what sort of people do you want to attract?

All I can suggest is, take the comments and feedback here and learn from it.

Just out of curiosity, what would you have done differently, had it been an audience of martial artists, and how/why would it have been different?

I don't know perhaps a bit sharper. I still am proud of my students. They were there the whole day with me. They work hard.
As for the people to atract. Everybody can learn aikido. So everybody is welcome.

eyrie
06-13-2010, 01:54 AM
I don't know perhaps a bit sharper. So why didn't you? Why should it be any different? Irrespective of who the audience is?

As for the people to atract. Everybody can learn aikido. So everybody is welcome. There's a danger in trying to appeal to everyone. Is what you offer applicable to 90% of the population or are you dealing with a fairly niche market? Two words I have for you... market segmentation, and another two... target market.

There's a lot more to it than just doing and teaching aikido... if you want to grow.

nekobaka
06-13-2010, 02:26 AM
Your white belts' ukemi is better than a lot of our new shodans. You use your limited space well and your technique is smooth. I've been doing embus for years, and none of mine look that smooth, so I say well done. an embu is an embu, what can be found and practiced in normal practice sessions is something else. my dojo emphasizes a serious attack, but I doubt we really attack that seriously at embus.
just something to think about. we also have no idea how long any of these people have been practicing. everyone is doing their best at the stage they are at. I agree NagaBaba's comments were inappropriate.

arjandevries
06-13-2010, 02:40 AM
Your white belts' ukemi is better than a lot of our new shodans. You use your limited space well and your technique is smooth. I've been doing embus for years, and none of mine look that smooth, so I say well done. an embu is an embu, what can be found and practiced in normal practice sessions is something else. my dojo emphasizes a serious attack, but I doubt we really attack that seriously at embus.
just something to think about. we also have no idea how long any of these people have been practicing. everyone is doing their best at the stage they are at. I agree NagaBaba's comments were inappropriate.

Thank you Ani for the nice reply.
The people who are practising are doing Aikido for no more than 5 years up to two years. They practise only at the most twice a week!
In the dojo I always tell people to attack seriously. I am also a 3rd dan Taekwondo so I know what a serious attack is! Most of the people do not have these kind of background before they start Aikido. It is more difficult for them to learn then it is for me.
How are serious attacks being practised in your dojo?

NagaBaba
06-13-2010, 09:33 AM
- in the moment of throw you are going back - it is simply impossible to throw somebody forward such way.
>> See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtwY3uAMixI the irst seconds. Is this what you mean?.
Yes exactly. This is quite common mistake I can see developing last few years. Such 'pull back' movement is correct only when uke is trying to take you with him to the ground. In such case you are using a muscle of your front leg to counter it and as the result all your body is shifting a bit back. However, you should remaining well rooted, your center should be affected.
If uke simply falling forward(as on this video and on your video), 'pull back' becomes superficial and is considered as 'mannerism' may be to impress public?. From martial perspective all mannerism is not only useless but is considered as a opening.

- you are not centered to the center of attacker. Many times your back is exposed to him. Looks like you are not interested at all by him, instead you are concentrated on your technique.
>> I am very interested in my uke and watch them closely in the excersice. I always wait until they are ready to take the ukemi..
I don't think so. .Watch your video, about 25 sec, your are turning around with your uke on your back. The moment he choose chock you, you can't defend yourself. You are in front of him and he is not in front of you - you have broken the basic principle of martial engagement.
Also this 'turning around' is unnecessary from martial point of view and falls to the category of mannerism.

- there is no 'irimi concept' (physical or mental), and this creates a lot of openings for the counters.Of course your uke are beginners so they think how to make ukemi instead of countering, but with some well trained black belt you will be helpless.
>> please explain more what your opinion is about this concept so we all can learn..
Founder said that his aikido contains irimi and atemi(percentage may vary depending of his level of development). It means the irimi and atemi are principles that every technique must contain. You are not starting your techniques with irimi. The consequence is that your are overwhelmed by the attack of one attacker - imagine what will happen with multiple attackers....
I can't see any atemi?
Mentally, physical atemi and irimi movement creates strong presence. So in more advanced level, you may use this strong presence to put an attacker out of balance even without actual physical movement. If you don't practice irimi, you will never develop more sophisticated tools.

- you are not controlling attacks, you are "slave" of the attacks.
>> I do not understand.
See above.

- you posture is sloppy and this fact prevent you from creating real power from your body. Instead you are waving arms like mil.
>> Perhaps style diferences?.
I don't think so. This is very complex subject, but weapons training can help here. Take a look at Shioda sensei movements. His arms and legs are not separated from the rest of his body. It literally force him to generate a power from his body, where there are the biggest muscles. He is always moving as a one block.
Also the structure of the body must have certain form, and everything is aligned following certain angle to the attack line.
May be you need some static training with heavy and very strong attacker to see what I mean.

Very probably you don't do any weapons otherwise your posture and your uke will be different.
Correct. I am not thought weapons correctly and to teach myself rom video seems not such a good idea. Any suggestions?.
Find iaido or jodo dojo with good reputation. At your level you really don't have other option. You need to learn a system of weapons.

NagaBaba
06-13-2010, 09:48 AM
Thank you all for your comments.

The demonstration was to a public who do not know anything about Aikido (neither do I accourding to some :D ).

Fot a lot o people Aikido is their way of doing martial arts. It is not like any other combative martial art. They look at it and see something they might be interested in. If it were a public of martial artists I might do it a bit differently.

Nonetheless, thanks or the advice. I am not worried to get negative advice. As for my ukes; They are not higher then third kyu so don't blame them. The do their best!

Arjan
Demo shall reflect YOU, what you understand by aikido, and not be artificial marketing. Be yourself, as true as possible, don't worry what public will understand or not.Ppl are smarter then you think.

As a teacher you should be able to teach your students how to attack correctly in 2 months. This is the most important thing to teach in the beginning, because it will determine directly the correctness of the techniques.

Russ Q
06-13-2010, 10:07 AM
It's always hard to represent your teacher's movement when you're a long way away from him/her...there is also the fact that this is not ones' dojo (it's an unfamiliar place...for teacher and students), Arjan is clearly taking the edge off of some techniques to make sure his students are okay. That being said, I think Mr. S has some valid perspectives (once explained clearly:-) and Arjan (and anyone for that matter) can benefit from them. He's right too, that the enbu should reflect you....Suganuma Sensei also clearly says this. Being more strict with your posture, Arjan, is also good advice...this is a process.... When all is said and done, for a public demo in an unfamiliar place, I think you and your students did a great job. I'm willing to bet you had some inquiries from the demo. Gambatte!

oisin bourke
06-13-2010, 09:02 PM
Yes exactly. ...

Post no 24 was very informative sir!

arjandevries
06-16-2010, 08:04 AM
Yes exactly. This is quite common mistake I can see developing last few years.

Well, perhaps you should talk to Suganuma Shihan about this. Perhaps you can teach him a thing or two.

I do not have any problem with critics at all believe me. What I find curious is that you have an opinion without knowing me or, much more important, having felt my Aikido. Futher more you do not know my students or how far they are in level. So, your conclusions, allthough you have interesting points, should been build in other words.
You must know a few things about O Sensei (you quote the man) so you should now something about mental principals.
Further more, the whole community of course is whaiting desperatily on a video of your demo. At least, I am....

All the best,

Arjan

Russ Q
06-16-2010, 08:22 AM
Athough I think Mr. S almost always has valid points, and his "issue" is in the delivery of those points, I too would love to see an enbu by him.....whaddya say Mr. S. Will you grace us with a video of yourself displaying the principles of aikido as you have embodied thus far?

NagaBaba
06-16-2010, 10:56 AM
Well, perhaps you should talk to Suganuma Shihan about this. Perhaps you can teach him a thing or two.

I do not have any problem with critics at all believe me. What I find curious is that you have an opinion without knowing me or, much more important, having felt my Aikido. Futher more you do not know my students or how far they are in level. So, your conclusions, allthough you have interesting points, should been build in other words.
You must know a few things about O Sensei (you quote the man) so you should now something about mental principals.
Further more, the whole community of course is whaiting desperatily on a video of your demo. At least, I am....

All the best,

Arjan
Hello Arjan,
You asked me for more explanations - so I wrote them. Don't like it? - no problem, I'm not your teacher.
Wish you all the best.

NagaBaba
06-16-2010, 10:58 AM
Athough I think Mr. S almost always has valid points, and his "issue" is in the delivery of those points, I too would love to see an enbu by him.....whaddya say Mr. S. Will you grace us with a video of yourself displaying the principles of aikido as you have embodied thus far?
You are right, I have to work harder on my communication skills.

dps
06-16-2010, 11:55 AM
You are right, I have to work harder on my communication skills.

Whatever happened to the video, "Tenkan Of Steel"?

David

Don_Modesto
06-16-2010, 12:17 PM
Athough I think Mr. S almost always has valid points, and his "issue" is in the delivery of those points, I too would love to see an enbu by him.....whaddya say Mr. S. Will you grace us with a video of yourself displaying the principles of aikido as you have embodied thus far?Seconded.