PDA

View Full Version : YouTube: Ki in Aikido? (Y. Takeda sensei demo)


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


phanhngocdi
06-08-2010, 06:01 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ltf6-Qqc40Y
1. I don't know what shihan Takeda were trying to demo? is it Ki or connection, proper time, etc?
2. How to develop Ki in my daily practices? Kokyu nage? mind set? etc?

Could you please expound those 2 concerns?
Thanks in advance

Janet Rosen
06-08-2010, 11:18 AM
I think it is a fine demo of overcommitted ukes throwing themselves very prettily.

Gorgeous George
06-08-2010, 12:09 PM
I think he's demonstrating what you need to do in order to make sure you get beat up in fights, further perpetuating the belief in some quarters that aikido is shit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I

The shame, the shame...

dps
06-08-2010, 12:48 PM
2. How to develop Ki in my daily practices? Kokyu nage? mind set? etc?

You have to start your uke's training when they are young.

http://www.damazen.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/eWp4X3pydw_1243602797315554.gif

David

Gorgeous George
06-08-2010, 01:26 PM
You have to start your uke's training when they are young.

http://www.damazen.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/eWp4X3pydw_1243602797315554.gif

David

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Brilliant.

sakumeikan
06-08-2010, 02:32 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ltf6-Qqc40Y
1. I don't know what shihan Takeda were trying to demo? is it Ki or connection, proper time, etc?
2. How to develop Ki in my daily practices? Kokyu nage? mind set? etc?

Could you please expound those 2 concerns?
Thanks in advance
I dont know what Takeda Sensei was trying to demonstrate.I do know the Ukes were demonstrating almost like performing seals or the like at a circus.This type of Aikido performed by the Ukes and no doubt approved by the Sensei makes the Aikido community a laughing stock.No wonder we Aikidoka get bad press when this stuff is available on line.
I have practiced with people who practice soft Aikido but never at any time have I ever been exposed to such sheer nonsense [especially the no touch at 30 paces stuff]as shown in this video.
If Takeda Sensei wishes to transmit Aikido I would humbly suggest he shelves some of the stuff in the Demo and concentrates on some solid waza.I say this in good faith not to insult or denigrate this gentleman.

Hellis
06-08-2010, 03:16 PM
This video is fuel for `Bullshido `` and rightly so.

I have no idea what Takeda Sensei is trying to achieve ? I would like to ask where the hell they get people to `perform` like that ?
I would not dare to suggest to any of my dan grades to participate in such a farce... I do though wonder if after a time these teachers actually believe that this pony is real ?

Henry Ellis
http://kenshiroabbe.blogspot.com/

Adam Huss
06-08-2010, 09:06 PM
Henry,
I think they do delude themselves. George's video link is an example of that. He wagered his health and money on his skill to control people with ki ai. I have seen another video where a guy said he could project energy balls that knocked people over and invited a local TV news crew to interview him live and do a demonstration on the news program's employees. Obviously both groups got embarrassed, but must have thought they were right somehow. I know people who are skilled practitioners in one art, but 'trade rank' with other hacks giving them certificates indicating they are also highly proficient in skills they don't own. I often wonder when it goes from an exaggeration to a full-blown self delusion. Oh, and I'm not speaking necessarily about aikidoka.

George,
Thanks for the link! I have been trying to find that one for a couple weeks now, but haven't had any luck.

Darryl Cowens
06-09-2010, 12:44 AM
I think it is a fine demo of overcommitted ukes throwing themselves very prettily.

Check it out around 1:25... He didn't even touch him.. It was like Obi-Wan was using the force.. ;)

Abasan
06-09-2010, 02:36 AM
You have to start your uke's training when they are young.

http://www.damazen.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/eWp4X3pydw_1243602797315554.gif

David

David, I'm going to steal your gif. :D

As for the replies here...
I've practised with several of those uke's before.

Kaoru, the 1st uke not only has decades of aikido under his belt, he's been around the world training in other arts including bjj, muay thai and silat. Nice guy as he is, I won't ever call him a seal jumping through hoops. He's not inaccessible, you can find him in hombu most times since he writes for their magazine as well. So go train with him and ask him what it all means. Everything else here is conjecture from people who decided they know everything there is to know on the basis of their current experience.

To imply Shihan Takeda is in the same circle as that kiai fellow is a big misrepresentation.

For the benefit of the 1st poster...
Shihan is demonstrating aiki. Not ki. When you get better, your connection (musubi) between uke and nage is no longer constraint by physical, but more... ki, mind, intention.

Chris Li
06-09-2010, 02:54 AM
To imply Shihan Takeda is in the same circle as that kiai fellow is a big misrepresentation.

Takeda's actually quite skilled, I always enjoyed his demonstrations each year at the Zen Nihon. However, with the kind of stuff he's been demonstrating in the YouTube videos he's put himself smack dab in the middle of the same circle as that kiai fellow.

For the benefit of the 1st poster...
Shihan is demonstrating aiki. Not ki. When you get better, your connection (musubi) between uke and nage is no longer constraint by physical, but more... ki, mind, intention.

Doesn't look much like aiki to me.

Best,

Chris

Michael Varin
06-09-2010, 03:26 AM
Wow. Impressive stuff.

I bet Georges St-Pierre wouldn't stand a chance against Yoshinobu Takeda.

I loved the suwari waza randori at the end. I understand how you can stop six men by waving your arms while standing, but I really didn't think he could do it on his knees.

Michael Varin
06-09-2010, 03:28 AM
When you get better, your connection (musubi) between uke and nage is no longer constraint by physical, but more... ki, mind, intention.

I agree. . .

But that wasn't it.

Abasan
06-09-2010, 03:33 AM
Chris, no disrespect to you but saying,
"Takeda's actually quite skilled" is like saying Johnson's quite good in Basketball. A lot of folks here evince proper respect, even awe for Endo sensei, yet do not realise that Takeda is senpai to him and was recognise by his teacher (yamaguichi) as one of his most gifted students.

Takeda is also a board director in Aikikai hombu. He is an 8th dan holder. And the list goes on for whoever cares for that sort of thing.

Actually...its fine. That's all I have to say on behalf of this respected teacher.

Best.

phanhngocdi
06-09-2010, 04:04 AM
so what is behind his demonstration?
in this clip, there is one guy in the center trying to hold his fist and several guys around this man and help him to keep his own balance.
The sensei just wave his hand from quite far distance => all of them fall down?
what is the thing behind this?

Carl Thompson
06-09-2010, 05:23 AM
I recall taking part in this discussion (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15727&highlight=Takeda+yoshinobu) regarding Takeda Shihan and no-touch throws about the same time last year.

David Soroko posted this link near the start.

http://www.aikidosydneycity.com/aikidokenkyukai.html

What follows next is known as atogeiko (after practice) and is a time for students to approach their sensei (teacher) and senpai (senior students) for ukemi. The average student will receive anywhere from 20 to 100 throws at a time, depending on their ability. This practice, while physically demanding, is invaluable for their progress as it develops suppleness, sensitivity and inner weight. Once fatigued, they are no longer able to resist their partner's movement and thus, begin to move naturally and freely with no concept of mind, in accordance with Aikido principles.

sorokod
06-09-2010, 07:44 AM
On that same thread Peter Goldsbury had this to say I myself have told the present Doshu that such demonstrations are actually a source of scandal (I did not put it quite like this)

More here: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=224777&postcount=52

chillzATL
06-09-2010, 08:19 AM
Is this demo really so different than most you see these days?

dps
06-09-2010, 08:27 AM
David, I'm going to steal your gif. :D


Ok, that is how I got it. :)

David

Chris Li
06-09-2010, 09:48 AM
Chris, no disrespect to you but saying,
"Takeda's actually quite skilled" is like saying Johnson's quite good in Basketball. A lot of folks here evince proper respect, even awe for Endo sensei, yet do not realise that Takeda is senpai to him and was recognise by his teacher (yamaguichi) as one of his most gifted students.

Takeda is also a board director in Aikikai hombu. He is an 8th dan holder. And the list goes on for whoever cares for that sort of thing.

Actually...its fine. That's all I have to say on behalf of this respected teacher.

Best.

Sure, I know Takeda, I trained with his teacher many times, and I know many of his contemporaries. That doesn't change what he's doing in the videos, however.

Best,

Chris

Abasan
06-09-2010, 10:21 AM
Uke is asked to have intention of killing nage. Like really really I'm going to kill you with this punch. The other guys just hold on to him. If he moves using his own muscle, they can stop him easily. If he moves without conscious thought, the others will fall too.

Sensei grabs that intention, and cuts.

Its a demonstration of intent and connecting with intent. Not a demonstration to do an invisible throw.

I wanted to post a video of another Aiki jujitsu practitioner who worked with one of the Dallas footballers, plus a lady pro golfer and some basketballers. He did extensive aiki fake outs that caused the footballers and basketballers to freeze as he walk past them. Certainly no touching involved. Sure he did not throw them down, but they stopped short of even touching him or his football.

Unfortunately, both videos that I linked to have now been removed. Still there are plenty floating around on the net, and maybe one day you'll get the chance to feel it for yourself.

Gorgeous George
06-09-2010, 11:27 AM
George,
Thanks for the link! I have been trying to find that one for a couple weeks now, but haven't had any luck.

No problem - I had a little trouble finding it this time myself. You just have to remember to search for 'Yanagiryuken'....or 'Kiai', haha.

Gorgeous George
06-09-2010, 11:30 AM
I loved the suwari waza randori at the end. I understand how you can stop six men by waving your arms while standing, but I really didn't think he could do it on his knees.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Gorgeous George
06-09-2010, 11:32 AM
Uke is asked to have intention of killing nage. Like really really I'm going to kill you with this punch. The other guys just hold on to him. If he moves using his own muscle, they can stop him easily. If he moves without conscious thought, the others will fall too.

Sensei grabs that intention, and cuts.

Its a demonstration of intent and connecting with intent. Not a demonstration to do an invisible throw.

I wanted to post a video of another Aiki jujitsu practitioner who worked with one of the Dallas footballers, plus a lady pro golfer and some basketballers. He did extensive aiki fake outs that caused the footballers and basketballers to freeze as he walk past them. Certainly no touching involved. Sure he did not throw them down, but they stopped short of even touching him or his football.

Unfortunately, both videos that I linked to have now been removed. Still there are plenty floating around on the net, and maybe one day you'll get the chance to feel it for yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9rl1EvJX_k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdrzBL2dHMI

I think the jiu-jitsu guys mustn't train correctly...

sakumeikan
06-09-2010, 11:34 AM
Uke is asked to have intention of killing nage. Like really really I'm going to kill you with this punch. The other guys just hold on to him. If he moves using his own muscle, they can stop him easily. If he moves without conscious thought, the others will fall too.

Sensei grabs that intention, and cuts.

Its a demonstration of intent and connecting with intent. Not a demonstration to do an invisible throw.

I wanted to post a video of another Aiki jujitsu practitioner who worked with one of the Dallas footballers, plus a lady pro golfer and some basketballers. He did extensive aiki fake outs that caused the footballers and basketballers to freeze as he walk past them. Certainly no touching involved. Sure he did not throw them down, but they stopped short of even touching him or his football.

Unfortunately, both videos that I linked to have now been removed. Still there are plenty floating around on the net, and maybe one day you'll get the chance to feel it for yourself.
Hi ,
Having read the opening few sentences in this last item I find it practically incomprehensible. Please explain dear Ahmad in simple words [I am a bit dull] what you are trying to say.Maybe I am missing the point of your explanation.Perhaps I am simply not on your wavelength?Can I be the only person on this Web page who fails to grasp the esoteric meaning of your post?I must say the old song by Danny Kaye in Hans Christian Anderson where he sings about the Emperors New Clothes seems to me to fit this situation.
As far as Yamaguchi Sensei is concerned I do not recall him training like the example in question.To my knowledge he did not wave an arm and groups of Uke [some feet away ] fell to the floor as if hit by a cosmic thunderbolt.
As far as the senior Uke[earlier blog ] being a real nice guy [which is good ]
has no bearing on the fact that he seems to me [at least ] to be
rather co operative in the role of Uke.

sakumeikan
06-09-2010, 11:40 AM
Sure, I know Takeda, I trained with his teacher many times, and I know many of his contemporaries. That doesn't change what he's doing in the videos, however.

Best,

Chris
Dear Chris,
So exactly what is Takeda Sensei doing? Can you please enlighten me here?Maybe you would care share your viewpoint on the content of the videoes?

Chris Li
06-09-2010, 11:55 AM
Dear Chris,
So exactly what is Takeda Sensei doing? Can you please enlighten me here?Maybe you would care share your viewpoint on the content of the videoes?

Sorry, I thought that I was clear earlier . IMO, what's going on is pretty much what goes on in any of those bizarre "ki master" videos floating around.

When I spoke to one of Takeda's contemporaries about those demos he started out with "brainwashing" and "hypnotism" and then it went downhill from there.

Best,

Chris

Abasan
06-09-2010, 11:57 AM
Hi ,
Having read the opening few sentences in this last item I find it practically incomprehensible.

Maybe you should take comprehension lessons. I think its pretty clear what I've said. Unlike your reference to songs that I don't know anything about dear Curran.

Uke is asked to have an intention of absolutely wanting to attack nage. Nage grabs/connects with that intention and cuts it. That's all. We're dealing with intent alone and as I said, its a demo.

So Yamaguichi sensei didn't do this or that, and that's the end of it? I guess everyone who studied under Osensei just did what he did?

Aikido is a path... its not book with a definite ending. Look...if you're really curious, be like me. Travel to his dojo and find out for yourself. He has a following in Canada, Germany and Australia. If Japan's too far out, pick one of those and go train. ;)

Mikemac
06-09-2010, 12:50 PM
So he's Yoda? I find this deeply disturbing......

Takeda has good credentials and is on a reputable board. He's attained 8th Dan and yet he must resort to "smoke and mirrors"? What's the point? To discredit the art of Aikido as a serious study and embarrass the Aikido community?

I've seen similar displays from certain people in Japan who have these claims of doing the impossible by extending their Ki. One I can remember was this guy who could make Japanese women have orgasms just by moving his hand above them without touch (Now this would be a great skill to have if it so existed!).

What disturbs me most is:

1) Why do these individuals need to make themselves into David Copperfield? It seems a real disrespect to people's intelligence.

2) Why do the Ukes/subjects comply with this ridiculous charade? Are they in fear of these people harming them if the don't go along with the show?

Maybe I'm being to harsh and not seeing something for what it may represent more than the likelihood of it being physically real. Please help...I'm confused. :confused:

Janet Rosen
06-09-2010, 02:50 PM
Uke is asked to have an intention of absolutely wanting to attack nage. Nage grabs/connects with that intention and cuts it. That's all. We're dealing with intent alone and as I said, its a demo.

I understand that a demo is more kata than jiyuwaza. But the teacher gets to demo what he wants to present. And what my eyes see is not ukes with "an intention of absolutely wanting to attack nage," but ukes who are running at him headlong, giving up their centers before he has done a thing.

Carl Thompson
06-09-2010, 05:53 PM
Maybe you should take comprehension lessons. I think its pretty clear what I've said. Unlike your reference to songs that I don't know anything about dear Curran.

Curran sensei was referring to the story of the Emperor's New Clothes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes). I think it is quite well known but if you don't know, it is better to ask. If people are polite and respectful, they will endeavour to explain things to you. If the explanations are still unclear, a good thing to do is to continue to ask questions and hopefully get more detailed explanations and examples. In the end though, you may just have to agree to disagree on things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Emperor_Clothes_01.jpg/220px-Emperor_Clothes_01.jpg

sakumeikan
06-09-2010, 06:03 PM
Maybe you should take comprehension lessons. I think its pretty clear what I've said. Unlike your reference to songs that I don't know anything about dear Curran.

Uke is asked to have an intention of absolutely wanting to attack nage. Nage grabs/connects with that intention and cuts it. That's all. We're dealing with intent alone and as I said, its a demo.

So Yamaguichi sensei didn't do this or that, and that's the end of it? I guess everyone who studied under Osensei just did what he did?

Aikido is a path... its not book with a definite ending. Look...if you're really curious, be like me. Travel to his dojo and find out for yourself. He has a following in Canada, Germany and Australia. If Japan's too far out, pick one of those and go train. ;)

Dear Ahmad,
Rather than advise me to take lessons in comprehension I would suggest that you do some research on the performer [Danny Kaye ] and his song relating to the fact that an Emperor [who was nude ] believed he was wearing new clothes.This is a well known Hans Christian Anderson story.Maybe a bit before your time?
I was using this songs theme to illustrate the point that I consider Takeda Sensei and his Ukes demo [as shown ] is in my opinion suspect.Why not educate yourself and listen to the words of the song?You of course defend this video by trotting out the old chestnut 'Its a demo 'to justify the performance of the people in the video.
Takeda Sensei may well have a following in many countries, that in itself does not prove anything as far as this demo is concerned.You also suggest I should go to Japan or other areas to train and see for myself.Based on the stuff on this video why would I want to waste valuable time /money and resources to 'understand ' this material??I have better things to do with my time.

sakumeikan
06-09-2010, 06:18 PM
Curran sensei was referring to the story of the Emperor's New Clothes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes). I think it is quite well known but if you don't know, it is better to ask. If people are polite and respectful, they will endeavour to explain things to you. If the explanations are still unclear, a good thing to do is to continue to ask questions and hopefully get more detailed explanations and examples. In the end though, you may just have to agree to disagree on things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Emperor_Clothes_01.jpg/220px-Emperor_Clothes_01.jpg
Hi Carl,
Thanks for posting you comment. It would appear that our friend Ahmad is not familiar with the Danny Kaye song.As you say rather than make a dig at me [in a manner of speaking ] if he is unaware of Hans Christian Anderson/Danny Kaye /the song I will be happy to enlighten him.
On a personal note we had a good one day course last weekend.I am off to meet Doshu /Waka Sensei next week.Hope you are well. Joe.

Janet Rosen
06-09-2010, 06:59 PM
Can we please refrain from going off topic and personal? Surely there is enough here to discuss without resorting to unpleasant distractions! Thank you.

Abasan
06-09-2010, 07:05 PM
Dear Curran,
I wasn't taking a dig at you. If you look at my response, it was to your quote that I was incomprehensible. The subject was about what uke was doing at that point in time when they were holding a fist. (Janet, that's for you too) Nothing else. Not even about what uke was doing when they were running to attack sensei takeda. This answer is for our initial poster who wanted to know what was going on. Since no one else seems to be able to answer first hand about the demo, I volunteered to share the information. Nowhere in this post did I advocate was Sensei was doing, I was only explaining what he did. Why is a different story all together. And yes we all know Doshu isn't fond of Sensei's demos nowadays what with the fan waving and everything...

I can't claim to know Takeda sensei very well, but what little time I've been with him and what was shared by my sensei, I understand him to be a good person. Not some ego struck popinjay who needs unadulterated adoration by his uke's and spectators. Any sane person would know doing this demos will invite ridicule and criticism. He's had more than his fair share of doing demos in All Japan before and after fan waving. Sensei Takeda I know to be quite sane. So don't ask me why.

I'm not being paid to stick my neck out. The naysayer in the minority will quickly find himself set up for the a public lynching. But I can't stand by without sharing the other side of the story for someone who's really interested to know. I'm not an expert, this is what I know. Make of it what you will.

Your return was to mention the song related to Hans Christian's book. Yes he was before my time, although I have read some of his stories, the empires new clothes that I read never mentioned this song. Who this Danny Kaye is of no interest to me or relevant to the topic at hand. You equate Takeda to the story and that's your prerogative, I disagree and that's mine. But we're from different countries and cultural background, so my listening favourites, my interests and my understanding may differ from yours. I digress. Let's just say that we misunderstood each other. No harm no foul.

phanhngocdi
06-09-2010, 09:13 PM
Uke is asked to have intention of killing nage. Like really really I'm going to kill you with this punch. The other guys just hold on to him. If he moves using his own muscle, they can stop him easily. If he moves without conscious thought, the others will fall too.

Sensei grabs that intention, and cuts.

Its a demonstration of intent and connecting with intent. Not a demonstration to do an invisible throw.

I wanted to post a video of another Aiki jujitsu practitioner who worked with one of the Dallas footballers, plus a lady pro golfer and some basketballers. He did extensive aiki fake outs that caused the footballers and basketballers to freeze as he walk past them. Certainly no touching involved. Sure he did not throw them down, but they stopped short of even touching him or his football.

Unfortunately, both videos that I linked to have now been removed. Still there are plenty floating around on the net, and maybe one day you'll get the chance to feel it for yourself.

look @ the clip carefully and clearly. In the demonstration, there are bunch of people on other side of the mat, standing there try to hold their position without the thinking of attacking, the sensei just wave his hand from other side of the mat. all of them falls. what is that? it is not the connection, it is not the cutting the thinking of ukes...
i do not understand..

Mikemac
06-09-2010, 10:06 PM
Watching this video, I felt like I was injected with a poison. Fear not my fellow Aikidoka, because I offer the anitidote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr68Ix9nXJk

You'll be alright soon.........It should take effect quickly.:D

OwlMatt
06-09-2010, 10:45 PM
I've seem one of my own senseis trick ukes into falling over, essentially accomplishing a "no-touch throw" the way Takeda is in some places here. But the long-distance stuff in this video is nothing short of comical. Aikido is martial techniques, not magic tricks. Videos like this are just fuel for the Bullshido fire.

eyrie
06-10-2010, 12:44 AM
look @ the clip carefully and clearly. In the demonstration, there are bunch of people on other side of the mat, standing there try to hold their position without the thinking of attacking, the sensei just wave his hand from other side of the mat. all of them falls. what is that? it is not the connection, it is not the cutting the thinking of ukes...
i do not understand.. Rather than speculate on what Takeda is or isn't doing, or even whether his ukes are doing/not doing what they're supposed/not supposed to be doing, perhaps you should make a trip to Kamakura and ask Takeda himself to help you understand. ;)

sakumeikan
06-10-2010, 01:10 AM
Dear Curran,
I wasn't taking a dig at you. If you look at my response, it was to your quote that I was incomprehensible. The subject was about what uke was doing at that point in time when they were holding a fist. (Janet, that's for you too) Nothing else. Not even about what uke was doing when they were running to attack sensei takeda. This answer is for our initial poster who wanted to know what was going on. Since no one else seems to be able to answer first hand about the demo, I volunteered to share the information. Nowhere in this post did I advocate was Sensei was doing, I was only explaining what he did. Why is a different story all together. And yes we all know Doshu isn't fond of Sensei's demos nowadays what with the fan waving and everything...

I can't claim to know Takeda sensei very well, but what little time I've been with him and what was shared by my sensei, I understand him to be a good person. Not some ego struck popinjay who needs unadulterated adoration by his uke's and spectators. Any sane person would know doing this demos will invite ridicule and criticism. He's had more than his fair share of doing demos in All Japan before and after fan waving. Sensei Takeda I know to be quite sane. So don't ask me why.

I'm not being paid to stick my neck out. The naysayer in the minority will quickly find himself set up for the a public lynching. But I can't stand by without sharing the other side of the story for someone who's really interested to know. I'm not an expert, this is what I know. Make of it what you will.

Your return was to mention the song related to Hans Christian's book. Yes he was before my time, although I have read some of his stories, the empires new clothes that I read never mentioned this song. Who this Danny Kaye is of no interest to me or relevant to the topic at hand. You equate Takeda to the story and that's your prerogative, I disagree and that's mine. But we're from different countries and cultural background, so my listening favourites, my interests and my understanding may differ from yours. I digress. Let's just say that we misunderstood each other. No harm no foul.
Hi Ahmad,
No big deal.No need for anybody to consider duelling at forty paces with feather dusters.
If you are happy to believe that the stuff on Takeda Sensei vid is the real deal ,I have no problem with that.As you say I have my own opinion, you have yours.Lets just agree to disagree on the subject of Takeda Sensei .

eyrie
06-10-2010, 01:43 AM
No need for anybody to consider duelling at forty paces with feather dusters. Did someone say "feather dusters"?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt34aHAFkV8&feature=related#t=2m25s

:p

Adam Huss
06-10-2010, 03:09 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9rl1EvJX_k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdrzBL2dHMI

I think the jiu-jitsu guys mustn't train correctly...

The second link is the other one I was looking for, LOL. I never realized it was from Chicago, next time I'm in town I will have to observe a class...this stuff is of interest to me.

raul rodrigo
06-10-2010, 04:07 AM
Ahmad, I was quite eager to train with Takeda myself in his Kamakura dojo... until I saw his recent demonstrations. I'm trying to keep an open mind but it is difficult (for me at least) to see the point of demonstrating this kind of movement, particularly in a venue as public as the All-Japan.

Abasan
06-10-2010, 05:46 AM
Raul, you are not in the minority and I'm sure some of his students share the same feeling. But If you're lucky enough to train there, I think you should take the opportunity anyway and give it your best. I'm reminded there's only 1 rule... you cannot quit halfway through the class or you won't get invited back.

Peter Goldsbury
06-10-2010, 07:33 AM
Hello Raul,

As a neutral bystander in this discussion, I second Ahmad's suggestion. You should not take the All-Japan Demonstrations as any indication at all of what a shihan does in his/her own dojo. I have attended the classes of Watanabe Sensei at the Hombu Dojo and they were quite different from what he showed at the All-Japan Demonstration. I have never met Mr Takeda, but I trained for many years with his teacher, Yamaguchi Seigo, and I know very well what he was doing--and not doing. Yamaguchi Sensei never established any official lineage, so there are none who can claim to be doing Yamaguchi's aikido, neither Takeda nor Endo nor Tissier nor Yasuno.

However, your post raises an interesting issue. You state that you do not see the point of demonstrating this kind of movement in a venue as public as the All-Japan. I think you misunderstand the purpose of the All-Japan demonstration. It is not intended as a demonstration to show aikido to people who do not understand aikido. The best way of describing it is as a 'renewal of the myths of the Japanese Aikikai tribe'. The tribe assembles [participants and spectators] and collectively participates in a reaffirmation of the myths and values of the tribe.

Think of Avatar, which is probably the best way the Aikikai would like to see the technical and social value of aikido. All those fantastic flying ukemi on to creatures in a universe totally in harmony with nature. But, of course, it's all about peace. The battle with Quaritch and the machines has really ended before it has begun.

I feel these issues very keenly because the IAF is now actively planning a demonstration of aikido in China, from August 27 to Sept 1, as part of the Combat Games. China has no grass-roots aikido training, so the spectators will understand nothing about aikido, but they will be Chinese, and heirs to a much longer tradition of martial arts than exists in Japan. Thus, the IAF has to promote aikido as an art that is truly international, but without stressing the importance of the Japanese element (given World War II etc).

All I will say at this point is that the criteria we have established has upset the Aikikai somewhat, since we will require participants who have never met before to perform entirely unrehearsed demonstrations involving the full range of attacks, including kicks and unrehearsed attacks with weapons. The participants must be under 40 years of age and cannot be above 4th dan in rank (which rules out 'no touch' shihans). So the kind of demonstration that Mr Takeda showed will be quite impossible.

However, the question, 'What is the point of an aikido demonstration?', is valid and has been discussed before in these forums.

Best wishes,

PAG

Ahmad, I was quite eager to train with Takeda myself in his Kamakura dojo... until I saw his recent demonstrations. I'm trying to keep an open mind but it is difficult (for me at least) to see the point of demonstrating this kind of movement, particularly in a venue as public as the All-Japan.

Carl Thompson
06-10-2010, 08:41 AM
As a neutral bystander in this discussion, I second Ahmad's suggestion. You should not take the All-Japan Demonstrations as any indication at all of what a shihan does in his/her own dojo. I have attended the classes of Watanabe Sensei at the Hombu Dojo and they were quite different from what he showed at the All-Japan Demonstration. I have never met Mr Takeda, but I trained for many years with his teacher, Yamaguchi Seigo, and I know very well what he was doing--and not doing. Yamaguchi Sensei never established any official lineage, so there are none who can claim to be doing Yamaguchi's aikido, neither Takeda nor Endo nor Tissier nor Yasuno.

Just from my admittedly limited experience of having attended the last few All Japan Demonstrations, I have noticed that some do make a point of doing in embu what they do in their regular practice. It varies by year though and some dojos and shihans have obviously spent hours rehearsing a "performance". My feeling after seeing and subsequently training with some of these teachers is that I would be surprised if Takeda sensei was any different from the video.

I do agree however that what is being shown in these demonstrations is pitched mainly to other aikidoka. I believe you previously described it as "a gathering of the clans".

Carl

raul rodrigo
06-10-2010, 11:52 AM
DEAR DR. GOLDSBURY:

Yes, sir, I remember your using the phrase "gathering of the clans" in a previous discussion of the All-Japan demonstration. And perhaps I will not understand the thinking behind this kind of demonstration without more extended exposure to Japanese culture.

A further question would be: is a particular "clan" impervious to any and all reactions that its more esoteric demonstrations might draw from the other clans? Do the other clans preserve a respectful silence about that demonstration? In my country, spirited kibitzing and criticism is more common; polite inscrutability is difficult to achieve around here.

A friend of mine did attend Watanabe's class once, and found to his surprise that it was all kihon waza, solid, with no no-touch throws to be found. To this day, he does not (and I do not) grasp the disconnect between the class and the demonstration/ performance.

best,

RAUL

Chris Li
06-10-2010, 11:59 AM
DEAR DR. GOLDSBURY:

A friend of mine did attend Watanabe's class once, and found to his surprise that it was all kihon waza, solid, with no no-touch throws to be found. To this day, he does not (and I do not) grasp the disconnect between the class and the demonstration/ performance.

best,

RAUL

I've seen Watanabe do no-touch stuff in his regular hombu classes, and kihon as well. As to the Zen Nihon, I'd just like to note that a number of the YouTube videos are from embu other than the Zen Nihon.

Best,

Chris

raul rodrigo
06-10-2010, 12:45 PM
Yes, Chris, one of them was apparently shot in Takeda's own dojo in Kamakura, an embu to mark some anniversary, with Doshu in attendance. So that was a more private occasion than a Zen Nihon, but still, with the founder's grandson and "keeper of the way" present, does Takeda do the demo without wondering how a Doshu might react? Or is the audience's reaction not part of the equation at all and I am missing something important?

After Watanabe did the no-touch throw in class, were the students then expected to get up and try it themselves? Or was it purely for demonstration purposes?

best,

RAUL

DH
06-10-2010, 03:43 PM
After Watanabe did the no-touch throw in class, were the students then expected to get up and try it themselves? Or was it purely for demonstration purposes?
best,
RAUL
Systema does the "No touch videos" as well-with knife training no less. While I agree with Peter, perhaps someone can ask the teachers who do these things why they do them in the first place, and then if they do them privately as well. At least then you have a methodology to discuss instead of the display.
That seems better than guessing, and it might prove interesting as well..
Cheers
Dan

eyrie
06-10-2010, 05:53 PM
perhaps someone can ask the teachers who do these things why they do them in the first place, and then if they do them privately as well. At least then you have a methodology to discuss instead of the display. That seems better than guessing, and it might prove interesting as well.. Precisely... without understanding the purpose of what is being shown, all you have is speculation... which adds nothing to the discussion, IF it is indeed a discussion. Otherwise, it just comes across as a public slagging.

Ellis Amdur
06-10-2010, 09:18 PM
Last year I participated in a Systema-based week long defensive tactics training for law enforcement. There were no-touch (not throws), but a lot of movements that, taken a step further, would have been "throws." The logic with knives was to develop an absolutely non-rigid fluid response to the attack (imagine pushing into a two headed snake, and as the body twines/recoils, another part is attacking. I learned a lot from those drills, which actually bore some resemblance to some things I learned from Kuroda Tetsuzan.
OTOH, I used to attend Watanabe's classes - and yes, it was mostly staunch basic technique. He used to like to use more for ukemi - a lot - (throw the big guy thing). Until one day, where, suddenly, in the middle of a sequence of throws, he sort of waved his arms and I just stood there - because I did not have a clue what he wanted me to do.
I also was part of some demos with another prominent shihan, known for what some considered miracle waza, among them being picked up by four people and suddenly becoming heavy and crushing them, and some "randori" against multiple attack with weapons. I always watching my fellow uke's to know when to fall, because I never felt anything - not one whit - that would make me fall.
Takeda Yoshinobu - never took ukemi for him.
Ellis Amdur

oisin bourke
06-10-2010, 09:59 PM
Hello Raul,

Think of Avatar, which is probably the best way the Aikikai would like to see the technical and social value of aikido. All those fantastic flying ukemi on to creatures in a universe totally in harmony with nature. But, of course, it's all about peace. The battle with Quaritch and the machines has really ended before it has begun.

I feel these issues very keenly because the IAF is now actively planning a demonstration of aikido in China, from August 27 to Sept 1, as part of the Combat Games. China has no grass-roots aikido training, so the spectators will understand nothing about aikido, but they will be Chinese, and heirs to a much longer tradition of martial arts than exists in Japan. Thus, the IAF has to promote aikido as an art that is truly international, but without stressing the importance of the Japanese element (given World War II etc).

All I will say at this point is that the criteria we have established has upset the Aikikai somewhat, since we will require participants who have never met before to perform entirely unrehearsed demonstrations involving the full range of attacks, including kicks and unrehearsed attacks with weapons. The participants must be under 40 years of age and cannot be above 4th dan in rank (which rules out 'no touch' shihans). So the kind of demonstration that Mr Takeda showed will be quite impossible.

However, the question, 'What is the point of an aikido demonstration?', is valid and has been discussed before in these forums.

Best wishes,

PAG

Best of luck with the project in China. It sounds like a great adventure! As a thirty five year old okugi sandan I feel a little envious.

I've posted critical remarks about these no touch demos before, and I still think they do more harm than good, but I can understand the "no touch" Shihans feeling put out with not being involved in an international event. They're trying to spread peace, after all.

Best regards

Chris Li
06-10-2010, 10:07 PM
Yes, Chris, one of them was apparently shot in Takeda's own dojo in Kamakura, an embu to mark some anniversary, with Doshu in attendance. So that was a more private occasion than a Zen Nihon, but still, with the founder's grandson and "keeper of the way" present, does Takeda do the demo without wondering how a Doshu might react? Or is the audience's reaction not part of the equation at all and I am missing something important?

After Watanabe did the no-touch throw in class, were the students then expected to get up and try it themselves? Or was it purely for demonstration purposes?

best,

RAUL

I don't recall even actually doing those things - it was just demonstration with a few carefully chosen uke. Watanabe's demonstrations at the Zen Nihon inevitably draw laughter out of the audience, but he never seemed to mind.

Best,

Chris

David Yap
06-10-2010, 10:16 PM
...I always watching my fellow uke's to know when to fall, because I never felt anything - not one whit - that would make me fall.

Hi Amdur sensei,

So you are saying that you fell voluntarily - a "charity fall" so to speak, a harmonious fall with your fellow uke. I must admit that I am also guilty of that from time to time:D

As for OP's original question, the best answers would probably come from those who have had taken ukeme for Takeda shihan as to what they felt that caused them to fall.

Regards

David Y

Charles Hill
06-10-2010, 11:05 PM
Systema does the "No touch videos" as well-with knife training no less. While I agree with Peter, perhaps someone can ask the teachers who do these things why they do them in the first place, and then if they do them privately as well. At least then you have a methodology to discuss instead of the display.
That seems better than guessing, and it might prove interesting as well..
Cheers
Dan

Mikhail Ryabko explains what he is doing pretty thoroughly and clearly in the Beyond The Physical DVD as well as the Wrestling DVD. On thing that is said over and over is that there is no magic going on, no "ki" tricks.

phanhngocdi
06-11-2010, 05:11 AM
I've read all of ur posts, but it seems you guys never got chances to be Shihan Takeda's uke, that's y we stay here and make speculations about this NO TOUCHING clip. it could be beyond my realm of knowledge.
Is there any one got a opportunity to be Takeda's uke? that person can answer all of our concerns.

DH
06-11-2010, 10:46 AM
VI've read all of ur posts, but it seems you guys never got chances to be Shihan Takeda's uke, that's y we stay here and make speculations about this NO TOUCHING clip. it could be beyond my realm of knowledge.
Is there any one got a opportunity to be Takeda's uke? that person can answer all of our concerns.
Granted, but there are fundemental rules to go by: one of which is to not give up your center while attacking, the other...to not give up your center while receiving.
Neither of which is demonstrated in so many of the generic " no touch" videos.
The third would require having you center taken from you. There are many - more advanced things to do but if they don't even exhibit those there's no point in moving on.

I am willing to listen...I just keep looking for the logic.
Dan

phitruong
06-11-2010, 12:03 PM
I've read all of ur posts, but it seems you guys never got chances to be Shihan Takeda's uke, that's y we stay here and make speculations about this NO TOUCHING clip. it could be beyond my realm of knowledge.
Is there any one got a opportunity to be Takeda's uke? that person can answer all of our concerns.

if one of those ukes posted here and said "ya, i felt his ki across the room and it knocked me over along with my fellow mates." you think folks here would instantly believe in that? i will be the first to say "i don't".

remind me of the story.

Joe: you know that buttered toast always land on the floor with the buttered side down?

Bob: i don't believe you. prove it!

Joe (buttered a toast and drop it on the floor. the toast with buttered side was on top.)

Bob: see, you are wrong!

Joe: aaahh! i know what wrong! i buttered it the wrong side!

eyrie
06-11-2010, 07:52 PM
I've read all of ur posts, but it seems you guys never got chances to be Shihan Takeda's uke, that's y we stay here and make speculations about this NO TOUCHING clip. it could be beyond my realm of knowledge.
Is there any one got a opportunity to be Takeda's uke? that person can answer all of our concerns. Hmmm... logic dictates that at THAT distance, it is simply impossible, unless they can somehow defy the laws of physics and magically cause someone, let alone a group of people, to fall over! A reality check is in order, if you honestly believe that DBZ super-ki power exists. IMO, it is naive to think that THAT is what he's demonstrating. It's just too obvious and bordering on the ridiculous to be an actual physical demonstration of such imaginary powers.

Some here have already admitted to taking the occasional obligatory dive, and "playing the game". Why is that so hard to grok? It's just a demo. And so, the question on everyone's lips is... a demo of what? What is he showing? Since no one here was privy to the parameters of that demo, how can any of us surmise what the purpose of that demo was?

I certainly can't... although I did get two or three interesting ideas out of it that's worth further thought. But I can tell you this much about Takeda. He expects a certain level of responsiveness in your ukemi. If you stop and simply stand there, there is no reason for him to "do" anything. One is expected to change up, level up and keep coming in. And if you stand there expecting him to "do something" to you, be prepared for the smack upside the head, or a fist in the snoz - followed by a profuse apology for having connected. And then he'll proceed to ignore you and go play with someone else who is willing to give him something to work with. IME, when he does that, you've just missed a valuable learning opportunity.

Takeda is very soft. When you grab his wrist, it's like grabbing a limp hose. And then suddenly, out of nowhere, you'll find your centre taken and dropping like a ton of bricks. Or you'll find yourself glued to the spot trying to hang onto nothing. Or he'll drop you with the lightest of touches. Or if you come in hard with shomen uchi, it's like running into a padded wall and you go flying backward. But none of this stuff is magic. It might sound like magic, but it's not... many of his senior students can do some of this stuff to some level of ability. I myself have on occasion been able to replicate some of these tricks to some extent with non-compliant ukes (geez, dem jujitsu boys sure are strong).

My point is, what he's doing in the demo may not be what you think. To me, that's just too obvious. Look beyond it. What is he really showing. Things are never what they seem. Don't get trapped in the delusion of the illusion. ;)

eyrie
06-11-2010, 07:58 PM
if one of those ukes posted here and said "ya, i felt his ki across the room and it knocked me over along with my fellow mates." you think folks here would instantly believe in that? i will be the first to say "i don't".

remind me of the story.

Joe: you know that buttered toast always land on the floor with the buttered side down?

Bob: i don't believe you. prove it!

Joe (buttered a toast and drop it on the floor. the toast with buttered side was on top.)

Bob: see, you are wrong!

Joe: aaahh! i know what wrong! i buttered it the wrong side! No, I didn't feel his ki across the room, but I fell over anyway... mea culpa. I don't know why everyone else fell over too.. maybe the mat was slippery from all that blood... :p

Yes, that myth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MythBusters_(2005_season)#Toast_-_Butter_Side_Up_or_Down.3F) was busted.

zivk
06-11-2010, 10:32 PM
Yes, that myth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MythBusters_(2005_season)#Toast_-_Butter_Side_Up_or_Down.3F) was busted.

Hey, but what about the buttered cat paradox (http://www.kminer.net/files/movies/miner-perpetualmotion_480_360.mov)?

AsimHanif
06-12-2010, 07:10 AM
Very nice post #60 Ignatious. Sensible, open minded, and honest.

eyrie
06-12-2010, 08:49 PM
No problem Asim. IME, a bunch of people can be looking at the same thing and each person will come away with something that's completely different to everyone else - like blind men trying to describe what an elephant looks like. ;)

While it might obviously look like a "no touch" throw to some, I see something else. Whether I'm right or wrong about what I saw, is a completely different matter. The question is what did you see, and what does it mean to you? What was your Flash Forward? :D

Peter Goldsbury
06-12-2010, 11:07 PM
Hello Ignatius,

You raise some interesting and important questions. I have some comments and more questions.

Some here have already admitted to taking the occasional obligatory dive, and "playing the game". Why is that so hard to grok? It's just a demo. And so, the question on everyone's lips is... a demo of what? What is he showing? Since no one here was privy to the parameters of that demo, how can any of us surmise what the purpose of that demo was?
PAG. So, what is the purpose of Takeda's demonstrations? Is anyone ever privy to the parameters? As I stated earlier, I have taken uke many times for Yamaguchi Seigo Sensei, who was Mr Takeda's teacher and so I developed a very good idea of what he expected me to do--and not do. In this respect his demonstrations at the Nippon Budokan were simply a more intense and 'staged' (not in a bad sense) version of what he did in his classes.

However, it was common knowledge in the Hombu that with Yamaguchi there were 'believers' and 'non-believers', and probably a few agnostics for good measure. If you were a non-believer, you did not go to Yamaguchi's classes, but went to someone else's, like Tada's, or Arikawa's, if you could stand the pain. (When I first went to the Hombu, I was a neophyte, but my teacher had told me to go the classes of Yamaguchi, Tada and Arikawa. So I did. The respective 'expectations' of all three shihans were quite different.)

So the demonstrations at the Budokan were simply snapshots of ordinary classes, but writ large. But there never has been any statement of purpose of what they were supposed to do. This, actually, is a major issue for me at present.

I certainly can't... although I did get two or three interesting ideas out of it that's worth further thought. But I can tell you this much about Takeda. He expects a certain level of responsiveness in your ukemi. If you stop and simply stand there, there is no reason for him to "do" anything. One is expected to change up, level up and keep coming in. And if you stand there expecting him to "do something" to you, be prepared for the smack upside the head, or a fist in the snoz - followed by a profuse apology for having connected. And then he'll proceed to ignore you and go play with someone else who is willing to give him something to work with. IME, when he does that, you've just missed a valuable learning opportunity.
PAG. Yes. Yamaguchi expected exactly the same level of responsiveness.

My point is, what he's doing in the demo may not be what you think. To me, that's just too obvious. Look beyond it. What is he really showing. Things are never what they seem. Don't get trapped in the delusion of the illusion. ;)
PAG. So we go back to the original question. What is the purpose of his demonstration? What is he really showing? One possible answer is something like, 'If you need to ask the question, you will never understand the answer,' or, 'This cannot be expressed adequately in words', or some such IHTBF-style answer. But I do not think this is quite right.

In an earlier post, I mentioned the demonstration being planned in China. This planning is proving a very interesting exercise in the demythologizing of demonstrations. The parameters are relatively simple.

The audience will be Chinese and the aikido demonstration will be part of large tournament involving 13 martial arts with 1,500 participants. All the arts except aikido will hold competitions and participation is limited to 80 participants per martial art. The 80-odd aikido participants will all be under the age of 40 and all will be between the ranks of 2nd and 4th dan. Every individual participant, whether male or female, must be capable of training, and of demonstrating the entire repertoire of attacks including kicks and as uke or tori, with any other participant. The third and final demonstration will include freestyle, randori, weapons, and will finish with a free demonstration by two shihans: Christian Tissier and Yoshiaki Yokota. These two gentlemen will have assistants, who will take uke, but will also participate in the other demonstrations. The participants in the first two demonstrations will be told exactly what they have to demonstrate.

These parameters are causing great angst in certain official quarters and I am now being told for the first what are--and what are not--the essential ingredients of a 'real' aikido demonstration. A 'genuine' aikido demonstration is a demonstration that shows the 'spirit of aikido'. Apparently, however, a 'genuine' aikido demonstration, which shows the 'spirit of aikido' has to be organized on national lines, which means here Japanese participants, and all the rest. The point here is that the demonstration, while being a spontaneous outpouring of the 'spirit of aikido', cannot be entirely unrehearsed and cannot feature participants who have not practiced together previously.

So I am enjoying my current role of 'demonstration demythologizer'.

Best wishes,

PAG

DH
06-13-2010, 12:33 AM
Peter
If I may ask, are you going to require that the attackers retain their balance before, during, and after the initiation of the attack and then have to be taken off their feet? Or are they going to be permitted to attack and then give up their sense of balance and body structure, receive technique and agree to fall?
Secondarily, does Aikido enjoy a sucessful presence in China? One of the reasons I ask is; I wonder if a Chinese audience viewing martial arts might be educated differently, and therefore will see a martial art display with different eyes.

Cheers
Dan

Peter Goldsbury
06-13-2010, 01:24 AM
Hello Dan,

I can answer the second question immediately. Aikido has virtually no presence in China at all and so we have been listening very carefully to the Chinese officials who are part of the main organizing committee. This is partly the reason for the age limitation and for downplaying any suggestion that the Japanese have any exclusive cultural 'ownership' of aikido.

As for the first question, this is something I am still working on. No requirements have yet been given about the actual content of the demonstration, other than that the final demo has to be a kind of crescendo of the whole event.

Best wishes,

PAG

Peter
If I may ask, are you going to require that the attackers retain their balance before, during, and after the initiation of the attack and then have to be taken off their feet? Or are they going to be permitted to attack and then give up their sense of balance and body structure, receive technique and agree to fall?
Secondarily, does Aikido enjoy a sucessful presence in China? One of the reasons I ask is; I wonder if a Chinese audience viewing martial arts might be educated differently, and therefore will see a martial art display with different eyes.

Cheers
Dan

eyrie
06-13-2010, 01:29 AM
Hi Peter,

I think there is always an element of complicity in any demonstration, and as your present conundrum aptly demonstrates - how best to convey the spirit of the art, in a spontaneous and genuine manner, and yet not be completely unrehearsed at the same time. I'm sure Ueshiba M would have experienced the same dilemma, when asked to perform his art in front of the Emperor.

Although, I do recall participating in an aikido demonstration with Takeda sensei, that was both spontaneous and totally unrehearsed. This demonstration was held in the presence of ACT state ministers and various dignitaries from Japan, as a prelude to the Nara-Canberra sister city signing ceremony.

As I recall, when it was time, Takeda simply strolled onto the center of the cramp function space and proceeded to throw people around. In such a claustrophobic environment, the ukes had the unenviable task of being completely in tune with Takeda, whilst providing a genuine attack and spontaneous response at the same time, AND without getting hurt, or throwing themselves into the visiting dignitaries - which would have been a terrible disaster if either did happen.

So we go back to the original question. What is the purpose of his demonstration? What is he really showing? One possible answer is something like, 'If you need to ask the question, you will never understand the answer,' or, 'This cannot be expressed adequately in words', or some such IHTBF-style answer. But I do not think this is quite right. I do not pretend to know or fully understand what Takeda is demonstrating. And by the same token, I am neither defending him, nor the reactions of his ukes. Whether I am a "believer", "non-believer" or agnostic is beside the point - aikido isn't the first art I've been exposed to, and it certainly wouldn't be the last.

However, I am certainly not advocating that what he is showing falls into the IHTBF category. Far from it. But having had the brief experience of studying with Takeda, and with many other high level teachers from other arts, I've come to realize that there are many more layers to the onion.

Best regards,

Ignatius

sakumeikan
06-13-2010, 01:20 PM
Hello. everybody,
Am I the only person on this Forum who thinks that the subject of Takeda Sensei and his demo discussion has ran its course?
Unless either Takeda Sensei or his Ukes decide to enlighten us every thing else is sheer conjecture and speculation.

Hellis
06-13-2010, 01:34 PM
Hello. everybody,
Am I the only person on this Forum who thinks that the subject of Takeda Sensei and his demo discussion has ran its course?
Unless either Takeda Sensei or his Ukes decide to enlighten us every thing else is sheer conjecture and speculation.

Joe
This sbject ran its course just a few seconds into the video as far as I am concerned. Have you seen the Benny Hine video on my video site ? he does it better with more gullible people.

Henry Ellis
http://kyu-shin-do.blogspot.com/

Ellis Amdur
06-13-2010, 01:51 PM
I had a very interesting conversation with a long-time friend who, now, due to injuries can no longer do martial arts, but was, at one time, a very powerful, high-ranking practitioner of aikido. The person described themselves, accurately as someone with a violent history, a powerful temper, and "issues" about power to boot. What they said was that aikido for them was an activity that, everyday, required them to conform to a form, and practice it in a way that required them to fit in with people that, otherwise, they wouldn't have had the time of day for.
They described how this training has been enormously influential in the last decade in their involvement in working in communities in an inner city as a resident, both in getting along with other people and also in banding together to actually get the city government to do things. "I learned how to work with people. Aikido taught me that."
I found it a humbling thing to once again, have it underscored, that there could be an entirely different kind of aikido, which is based on "collusion." It is not something I want to do - in the least - but this could be regarded, I think, as "collusion for enlightenment," and given how it has not only affected my friend, but many others I know, I have to respect that path (if it is one that one is consciously walking, as opposed to an illusion).
This type of collusion - musubi - responsiveness - , taken to it's furthest extreme, is, of course, no-touch throws, be it by Takeda, Watanabe, by some modern Daitoryu folks I've seen on YouTube, a fair number of qigong masters in China, or anyone else (Yes, I haven't felt Mr. Takeda, but I truly do not buy the idea that one man's no-touch throw is any different than anyone else's). Frankly, I believe it degrades the merits of what I just described above, turning it to buffoonery.
Some might take umbrage at my having such a strong opinion - but when one publicly presents something, one is inviting comment, be it praise or critique. Otherwise, do not present.
Ellis Amdur
P.S. "Good" uke's can have an insidious effect on one's own estimation of one's skill. "Aiki-accomodation syndrome" strikes both ways. I truly think some individuals who use "no-touch throws," who just work with their own students, honestly think it works.

Thomas Campbell
06-13-2010, 02:13 PM
"Good" uke's can have an insidious effect on one's own estimation of one's skill. "Aiki-accomodation syndrome" strikes both ways. I truly think some individuals who use "no-touch throws," who just work with their own students, honestly think it works.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I

eyrie
06-13-2010, 07:40 PM
Nice post Ellis.

I agree, the application of aikido philosophy to individual and societal interactions can be ambiguous for those who subscribe to the sole premise that it is a "martial" art. Is it a martial art or not? If not, what then? Can it be both? I spent many years wrestling with that paradox, and I'm afraid, I have come no further in reconciling the duality.

However, I also do not buy into the "no-touch" myth - and certainly not from that distance. Although, I have on occasion thrown people without touching them, and overtly responsive uke aside, I would put that down largely due to a timing coincidence.

but when one publicly presents something, one is inviting comment, be it praise or critique. Otherwise, do not present. I couldn't agree more. It is a pity that it could be interpreted as mere buffoonery. But by the same token, I believe that people should also question their own perception bias. He is simply slicing the air, on several occasions - twice, and people are trying to fall over. There is no real connection whatsoever between him and the group. The timing is completely off. To me, no matter how deluded one might be, that is simply way too obvious to be a display of any real or imagined skill. Without knowing or having met Takeda, can one be absolutely certain that he is completely mad, or is there a method to his seeming madness?

As it is with the apparent dual facets of Aikido, each individual will have to make up their own mind. Personally, what I got out of that display went far beyond that of a supposedly "martial" display of equally imaginary skill. To me, it spoke to the concepts of expansive "feeling", and one part moving all connected parts.

IF that was what it intended to convey, then perhaps, it could have been better/differently. Who knows... I wasn't there and I have no idea what he was thinking. It's pure speculation on my and I could be equally deluded and completely off course to think that anything could have a deeper meaning.

sakumeikan
06-14-2010, 12:18 AM
I had a very interesting conversation with a long-time friend who, now, due to injuries can no longer do martial arts, but was, at one time, a very powerful, high-ranking practitioner of aikido. The person described themselves, accurately as someone with a violent history, a powerful temper, and "issues" about power to boot. What they said was that aikido for them was an activity that, everyday, required them to conform to a form, and practice it in a way that required them to fit in with people that, otherwise, they wouldn't have had the time of day for.
They described how this training has been enormously influential in the last decade in their involvement in working in communities in an inner city as a resident, both in getting along with other people and also in banding together to actually get the city government to do things. "I learned how to work with people. Aikido taught me that."
I found it a humbling thing to once again, have it underscored, that there could be an entirely different kind of aikido, which is based on "collusion." It is not something I want to do - in the least - but this could be regarded, I think, as "collusion for enlightenment," and given how it has not only affected my friend, but many others I know, I have to respect that path (if it is one that one is consciously walking, as opposed to an illusion).
This type of collusion - musubi - responsiveness - , taken to it's furthest extreme, is, of course, no-touch throws, be it by Takeda, Watanabe, by some modern Daitoryu folks I've seen on YouTube, a fair number of qigong masters in China, or anyone else (Yes, I haven't felt Mr. Takeda, but I truly do not buy the idea that one man's no-touch throw is any different than anyone else's). Frankly, I believe it degrades the merits of what I just described above, turning it to buffoonery.
Some might take umbrage at my having such a strong opinion - but when one publicly presents something, one is inviting comment, be it praise or critique. Otherwise, do not present.
Ellis Amdur
P.S. "Good" uke's can have an insidious effect on one's own estimation of one's skill. "Aiki-accomodation syndrome" strikes both ways. I truly think some individuals who use "no-touch throws," who just work with their own students, honestly think it works.

Dear Emdur Sensei,
Despite my earlier question /comment about the subject matter being done to death let me say thanks for your own comments.Nice to know some people are rational thinkers.
Cheers, Joe.

phitruong
06-14-2010, 08:51 AM
I agree, the application of aikido philosophy to individual and societal interactions can be ambiguous for those who subscribe to the sole premise that it is a "martial" art. Is it a martial art or not? If not, what then? Can it be both? I spent many years wrestling with that paradox, and I'm afraid, I have come no further in reconciling the duality.


never thought it was a paradox. i have always thought a martial art. martial arts, in my point of view, are ways to deal with conflicts. could be within one's skull, could be with another person, or many persons, all the way to full scale war.

He is simply slicing the air, on several occasions - twice, and people are trying to fall over. There is no real connection whatsoever between him and the group. The timing is completely off. To me, no matter how deluded one might be, that is simply way too obvious to be a display of any real or imagined skill. Without knowing or having met Takeda, can one be absolutely certain that he is completely mad, or is there a method to his seeming madness?


methink, it's a demonstration of group thinking in physical form. the leader falls for whatever reason, be it legitimate or not, the rest of the group follow.

niall
06-14-2010, 12:33 PM
By coincidence I sent a column on no-touch aikido to Jun before this thread started and I go into it in some more detail in that. But in the meantime let me make a couple of points about taking the ukemi for no-touch aikido. I know Watanabe Sensei much better than Takeda Sensei. He uses at least two ki techniques that I'm aware of - he could be using others too. They are not difficult concepts. I believe Takeda Sensei is doing something similar but he never did the no-touch aikido to me in the couple of times I took ukemi for his technique in Kamakura.

The first is timing and intention. If you go to open a door and just as you grab the handle the door opens away from you your body movement follows the movement of the opening door as you try to catch the handle. That's kind of how Watanabe Sensei leads your ki. And if the door spirals upwards and away from you suddenly you find yourself on your back.

The second is disturbing your ki - breaking the flow. Just as you are about to open the door if a dog jumps at you from the side you will pull up suddenly and protect yourself from the dog, thoughts of opening the door having become less important. Watanabe Sensei does that with movements and atemi of various kinds - some of them very subtle.

By the way both of these teachers have got very powerful relaxed aikido when they don't do the no-touch stuff. But I think Watanabe Sensei enjoys playing with the energy.

I don't really take the no-touch ukemi. Sometimes I deliberately changed the tempo or the direction of an attack to disturb Watanabe Sensei's technique and he seemed to relish that even. If the attack has got some energy and direction he seems to be able to use it. I have never fallen for him or any other teacher unless I was thrown and he always manages to throw me. And he's such a nice approachable guy too - like a cuddly bear. I don't mind about the other stuff. If that's what he wants to do it's fine with me.

phanhngocdi
06-14-2010, 09:46 PM
Thanks for all of your comments.
but no one has answered what is the purpose, reality behind this clip?What did Sensei try to demo?

dps
06-15-2010, 06:10 AM
Thanks for all of your comments.
but no one has answered what is the purpose, reality behind this clip?What did Sensei try to demo?

Maybe this is a way of training the ukes to do ukemi.

David

Gorgeous George
06-15-2010, 06:42 AM
Thanks for all of your comments.
but no one has answered what is the purpose, reality behind this clip?What did Sensei try to demo?

Haha. I think the opinions expressed about the reality behind this, is that the guy doesn't have magic powers, and what he's doing is an embarrassment to the name aikido; but a few people/one person(?) argued that he was using the power of his mind to make a load of people who had the 'mindset' of earnestly attacking him fall over.
So he tried to demo his mental powers, is the best/only explanation given, I think.

Don't worry about it, dude: there are a few people doing this kind of thing - just focus on doing aikido: it's irrelevant right now - you get ki balls at 12th dan, by which time it'll all make sense.

mickeygelum
06-15-2010, 07:21 AM
I think the opinions expressed about the reality behind this, is that the guy doesn't have magic powers, and what he's doing is an embarrassment to the name aikido

Thanks..:D

Some might take umbrage at my having such a strong opinion - but when one publicly presents something, one is inviting comment, be it praise or critique. Otherwise, do not present.


Very elequently stated, I concur.

Train well,

Mickey