PDA

View Full Version : Confused... Uke Ready to Jump?


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


Chris Knight
01-26-2010, 07:44 AM
after some general advise pls... new to aikido (studied for the last few months) and have watched loads of youtube footage from kyu level to shihan etc...

my main confusion surrounds the fact that uke in a lot of attacks are constantly going for wrist grabs and there seems to be much less footage of intense attacks down the centre line....

i may be completely observing these wrong, but a lot of the time, uke's appear to be running especially to grab the wrists and already prepared to take a jump...

can more experienced aikidokas explain this principle please so it can satisfy my worries about more explosive attacks etc??

on the contrary one of the few exceptions i've seen is the incredible Tissier Sensei who demonstrates much more natural attacks/techniques... (not sure if natual is the right word!!) but you get the idea...

regards

David Maidment
01-26-2010, 12:24 PM
Hi Chris.

I'm sure some more experienced members can answer better than me, but the way I understand it, wrist grabs and unrealistic lunges are used as ways to facilitate an understanding of the techniques. In our dojo, at least, we say that wrist grabs lead onto punches (and not everyone does drunken style punches -- one of my sensei dedicates a lot of time to realistic attacks -- although you should never underestimate Aikido as the perfect art to defend against some drunken nut).

You may also find the following article interesting, specifically the section about wrist-grabs being a traditional defence against sword-draws:

http://www.aikidostudent.com/content/?p=700

Also, don't forget that we train with compliance overkill so as to get used to techniques, as I mentioned above with the wrist grabs. If uke always stands his ground, how on Earth are you supposed to get to the point where you can throw him regardless of his stubbornness? It's kind of like disqualifying an athlete because they're not going to win; sure, they may not win this time, but with the opportunity to compete they can get enough practice to maybe get there one day.

Tinyboy344
01-26-2010, 12:28 PM
Because if uke do not do that, the spirit of O'Sensei is gonna visit them in their sleep and bitch slap those guys to death.

Different sensei, different styles, different teaching methods, different ukemi. We all do different things. If you like what u're training, stick with it, otherwise look for another (more/less aggressive) style.

mickeygelum
01-26-2010, 01:15 PM
i may be completely observing these wrong, but a lot of the time, uke's appear to be running especially to grab the wrists and already prepared to take a jump...


Sir, you are absolutely correct...why it is always like that, is a long awaited, unanswered question. " Bunnies hop, and so do ALOT of aikidoka "..:eek:

Because if uke do not do that, the spirit of O'Sensei is gonna visit them in their sleep and bitch slap those guys to death.

Hilarious...:D

Train well,

Mickey

Josh Reyer
01-26-2010, 07:36 PM
I've always thought it was funny that while aikido is often criticized for "unrealistic" wrist grabs, the round beating the MMA guy dealt Yanagi Ryuken was preceded by, of all things, a wrist grab.

ChrisHein
01-26-2010, 09:26 PM
There is a great reason to gain wrist control. This reason has to do with controlling what is in the hand of the wrist you are holding. If you are attacking someone with a weapon in their hand and you attack only the centerline with no regard for the weapon hand, your attack will be short lived. Aikido techniques come from much older techniques that are focused on the necessity of weapon hand control, and the need to quickly free your weapon hand.

Why do Aikido practitioners grab the wrist when there is nothing in the hand? Well most of our techniques start from the wrist grab, so an uke wanting to facilitate nage's ability to perform Aikido techniques will often go for the wrist. If you want to train Aikido mostly for unarmed martial arts (like mma) then this doesn't seem to make much sense. However if you are training to keep your weapon hand free, it's ideal training.

Why do Aikido uke's "jump"? Well there are a number of reasons for this. First of all it's polite to "jump" when taking ukemi for a high ranking instructor, and it makes demonstrations look more exciting. There is an element of self protection in the high fall or "jump". Sometimes it's the safest way to fall, it protects the joint, and enables you to land safely when otherwise it might not be possible. The high fall is a part of Aikido training, both aesthetically and practically.

chillzATL
01-27-2010, 02:20 PM
Depends on the dojo and style.

Chris Knight
01-28-2010, 04:29 AM
Thanks for responding so far guys...

Why do Aikido uke's "jump"? Well there are a number of reasons for this. First of all it's polite to "jump" when taking ukemi for a high ranking instructor, and it makes demonstrations look more exciting. There is an element of self protection in the high fall or "jump". Sometimes it's the safest way to fall, it protects the joint, and enables you to land safely when otherwise it might not be possible. The high fall is a part of Aikido training, both aesthetically and practically.

Thanks Chris... i have an understanding of why we take ukemi and the look behind it... what i was trying to understand is why there is so much footage of uke's practically running to take a jump before techniques are applied/balance broken.. i understand etiquette.. but does this help develop the sensei's techniques further???

Different sensei, different styles, different teaching methods, different ukemi. We all do different things. If you like what u're training, stick with it, otherwise look for another (more/less aggressive) style.

I am happy with my training... and it is constantly emphasised that we are learning principles and that a lot of attacks aren't started via wrist grabs... but will our techniques cover more normal left hooks, uppercuts, and more usual attacks???

You may also find the following article interesting, specifically the section about wrist-grabs being a traditional defence against sword-draws
yes, that was explained by our Sensei, but has the reasoning behind this not disappeared with the Samurai's etc?? sorry to sound negative but just need to get things right in my head behind the methodology...

kind regards

osaya
01-28-2010, 07:09 AM
what i was trying to understand is why there is so much footage of uke's practically running to take a jump before techniques are applied/balance broken.. i understand etiquette.. but does this help develop the sensei's techniques further???

as many people here have mentioned, there are so many dojos, teachers, styles etc. that it is not possible (or proper) to speak for anyone aside from yourself, as we seldom have any real idea about the rationale for a particular thing that someone else does. on one end of the extreme you have wannabe senseis who are on ego trips and need to feel like they have super powers, whilst on the other, others may have legitimate martial, safety, philosophical or other reasons for doing so.

perhaps a more useful way to continue this line of questioning is for you to post a specific video or two that you are wondering about, and people can give you a little more specific feedback.

but will our techniques cover more normal left hooks, uppercuts, and more usual attacks???

see above re: differences, but my understanding is if you're training in a traditional dojo, you probably won't train with most of those attacks you mentioned as part of your regular training regime. you may have to find or organise a side 'experiment group' of interested fellows; or if you're lucky, one of your teachers may have an extra/special class set aside for doing non-traditional aikido training.

however, some will argue that once you learn the principles, all attacks are the same.

yes, that was explained by our Sensei, but has the reasoning behind this not disappeared with the Samurai's etc??

again, the most common response you will get is that ultimately, aikido is about learning the principles, not specific techniques for specific attacks. that would be too limiting and impractical.

whether or not you buy this line of argument is up to you of course.

sorry to sound negative but just need to get things right in my head behind the methodology...

this question/debate has not started with, nor will it end with, you. i imagine almost every aikidoka out there has had a significant amount of time wrestling with this issue... some are fortunate enough to find the answers they seek. others like me are still seeking. ;)

all the best in your journey Chris.

ruthmc
01-28-2010, 09:05 AM
what i was trying to understand is why there is so much footage of uke's practically running to take a jump before techniques are applied/balance broken.. i understand etiquette.. but does this help develop the sensei's techniques further???

Hi Chris,

If uke is running, it's generally because he is still trying to attack tori. In advanced Aikido there is no 'single' attack, you keep on attacking until your balance has been taken and you are thrown.

When this hapens at high speed (running) uke has to launch himself quite high off the mat when the throw is applied, otherwise his arm gets torn off ;)

Hope this helps,

Ruth

StevieT
01-28-2010, 09:23 AM
Often, the fact that somebody is bothering to record the session puts it in the category of "demonstration". In any kind of demonstration, firstly, it's important that those watching can see what's going on, secondly, there is likely to be a degree of showing off on the parts of both nage and uke, and thirdly, both uke and nage tend to have a strong interest in the technique being seen to be "working". Aikido done without any of these considerations looks very different.

Keith Larman
01-28-2010, 09:36 AM
As a gigantic fwiw...

A while back a fella came and visited a class I was in. Yudansha level. The instructor demonstrated a very simple Munetsuki Kotegaeshi (for the newbs: wrist turn from a thrust punch to the chest). The fella comes over, bows to me, then he stands back a few feet and starts to kinda throw his body forward while delivering a kind of floppy, arm turned, "prebent" wrist punch while "hopping" forward on his forward foot. I stepped aside, got my hands up, and then just watched him hop past me. I never got to the kotegaeshi part because a) I had no idea what the heck he was doing and b) since he was a visitor I was trying to be polite and not say "what the hell was that?".

So he turns and asks why I didn't do the technique. My reply (which came out before I could self-censor) was that I was waiting to see if he was going to fall down by himself. He just said he was trying to give me a good, blending punch for the technique. So I bowed and we did it again. Yes, this time I threw him. And yes, all I had to do was do was kinda be in the right area and move a bit and the fella flew like he had a rocket strapped to his butt.

That was a really extreme experience. There are folk doing the other extreme as well -- same technique but they'll deliver a punch that is essentially a standing strike with zero attempt to actually hit anything. They are more focused on being totally stable and basically a sack of rocks. They don't reach you, they don't commit, and they are like throwing a sack of rocks.

I sometimes think of the guys who take the running start and are up on their toes ready to fly before they even contact as "uke-o-matics". They've gotten so good at taking ukemi (in the sense of flying) that they no longer attack. They're ready to fall before they've delivered anything at all. So they've become complicit in nage's work rather than giving nage something energetic and committed to unravel.

That said it is always a difficult balancing act. You can be a sack of rocks and be just as useless on the other side of the spectrum. Or you can do spectacular stuff without allowing nage to actually do anything.

But I know what you're saying. My personal pet peeve is seeing guys take ukemi who have that bobble-head style. The moment anyone touches them their head snaps around and they look like a spastic gumby being thrown around. Now there are people who *can* do that to a focused attacker, but some people you see just take it to an extreme in their ukemi.

Anyway, at some point a balancing act if found between a "good" attack and "good" ukemi. Some just focus a *lot* more on the ukemi and having the attacker blending as well. Which is great if you're being attacked by an Aikido practitioner. Not so great if it's the big P-O'ed guy at the bar...

Final word of advice -- worry about what your sensei is teaching you and not what you see on youtube. Youtube is the great equalizer -- you have everything from a few snippets of really good stuff to virtual landfills worth of total crap. The great thing about youtube is that anyone can video tape themselves. The worst thing about youtube is that anyone can tape themselves. ;)

Chris Knight
01-28-2010, 09:39 AM
Often, the fact that somebody is bothering to record the session puts it in the category of "demonstration". In any kind of demonstration, firstly, it's important that those watching can see what's going on, secondly, there is likely to be a degree of showing off on the parts of both nage and uke, and thirdly, both uke and nage tend to have a strong interest in the technique being seen to be "working". Aikido done without any of these considerations looks very different.

Good point Steve, as Im in a beginners class i haven't really seen any full on explosive aikido as such first hand yet, as we are still literally working on the basics, and all I've seen has been probably based on youtube footage, books etc....
i know the techniques hurt like hell when applied to me, by my Sensei etc, but have just been wondering as you dont see many everyday attacks being demonstrated etc...

Amir Krause
01-28-2010, 10:41 AM
T but will our techniques cover more normal left hooks, uppercuts, and more usual attacks???

Ask your Sensei, we can only guess, he knows.
Different styles, different teachers ...

Often, the fact that somebody is bothering to record the session puts it in the category of "demonstration". In any kind of demonstration, firstly, it's important that those watching can see what's going on, secondly, there is likely to be a degree of showing off on the parts of both nage and uke, and thirdly, both uke and nage tend to have a strong interest in the technique being seen to be "working". Aikido done without any of these considerations looks very different.
So true
:(
As a gigantic fwiw...

A while back a fella came and visited a class I was in. Yudansha level. The instructor demonstrated a very simple Munetsuki Kotegaeshi (for the newbs: wrist turn from a thrust punch to the chest). The fella comes over, bows to me, then he stands back a few feet and starts to kinda throw his body forward while delivering a kind of floppy, arm turned, "prebent" wrist punch while "hopping" forward on his forward foot. I stepped aside, got my hands up, and then just watched him hop past me. I never got to the kotegaeshi part because a) I had no idea what the heck he was doing and b) since he was a visitor I was trying to be polite and not say "what the hell was that?".

So he turns and asks why I didn't do the technique. My reply (which came out before I could self-censor) was that I was waiting to see if he was going to fall down by himself. He just said he was trying to give me a good, blending punch for the technique. So I bowed and we did it again. Yes, this time I threw him. And yes, all I had to do was do was kinda be in the right area and move a bit and the fella flew like he had a rocket strapped to his butt.

That was a really extreme experience. There are folk doing the other extreme as well -- same technique but they'll deliver a punch that is essentially a standing strike with zero attempt to actually hit anything. They are more focused on being totally stable and basically a sack of rocks. They don't reach you, they don't commit, and they are like throwing a sack of rocks.

I sometimes think of the guys who take the running start and are up on their toes ready to fly before they even contact as "uke-o-matics". They've gotten so good at taking ukemi (in the sense of flying) that they no longer attack. They're ready to fall before they've delivered anything at all. So they've become complicit in nage's work rather than giving nage something energetic and committed to unravel.

That said it is always a difficult balancing act. You can be a sack of rocks and be just as useless on the other side of the spectrum. Or you can do spectacular stuff without allowing nage to actually do anything.

But I know what you're saying. My personal pet peeve is seeing guys take ukemi who have that bobble-head style. The moment anyone touches them their head snaps around and they look like a spastic gumby being thrown around. Now there are people who *can* do that to a focused attacker, but some people you see just take it to an extreme in their ukemi.

Anyway, at some point a balancing act if found between a "good" attack and "good" ukemi. Some just focus a *lot* more on the ukemi and having the attacker blending as well. Which is great if you're being attacked by an Aikido practitioner. Not so great if it's the big P-O'ed guy at the bar...

Final word of advice -- worry about what your sensei is teaching you and not what you see on youtube. Youtube is the great equalizer -- you have everything from a few snippets of really good stuff to virtual landfills worth of total crap. The great thing about youtube is that anyone can video tape themselves. The worst thing about youtube is that anyone can tape themselves. ;)

Also true.

With some people it seems like they will decide on their behavior as Uke based on Tori belt color. In those instances, I wish the Sensei would have accepted it if I happened to find my old white belt and coming to class with it and not Hakama :D

Amir

lbb
01-28-2010, 10:50 AM
Good point Steve, as Im in a beginners class i haven't really seen any full on explosive aikido as such first hand yet, as we are still literally working on the basics, and all I've seen has been probably based on youtube footage, books etc....
i know the techniques hurt like hell when applied to me, by my Sensei etc, but have just been wondering as you dont see many everyday attacks being demonstrated etc...

Well, since it is a beginners' class, presumably they are demonstrating what they want you to do and the way that they want you to do it. That being the case, the reason why they're not demonstrating "full on explosive aikido" is that the result would be many bloody noses, and yours would most likely be one of them.

This makes me think of a new student who came to our dojo recently. After his first class he was full of questions about when he would get to do the "realistic stuff". The shidoin who was teaching that class gave the explanation, which boiled down to, "When you're ready for it." The next night, after his second class, he asked the head instructor what he could do to progress faster and achieve mastery more quickly.

"You start by coming to your third class," Sensei said.

New guy hasn't been seen since.

It's all well to debate the "unrealistic" nature of aikido practice, but to paraphrase Jack Nicholson, when you're a newbie you can't handle the reality, and if you're not willing to develop the skills to do so, I guess it's better to know that sooner rather than later.

Chris Knight
01-28-2010, 11:01 AM
Well, since it is a beginners' class, presumably they are demonstrating what they want you to do and the way that they want you to do it. That being the case, the reason why they're not demonstrating "full on explosive aikido" is that the result would be many bloody noses, and yours would most likely be one of them.
This makes me think of a new student who came to our dojo recently. After his first class he was full of questions about when he would get to do the "realistic stuff". The shidoin who was teaching that class gave the explanation, which boiled down to, "When you're ready for it." The next night, after his second class, he asked the head instructor what he could do to progress faster and achieve mastery more quickly.

"You start by coming to your third class," Sensei said.

New guy hasn't been seen since.

It's all well to debate the "unrealistic" nature of aikido practice, but to paraphrase Jack Nicholson, when you're a newbie you can't handle the reality, and if you're not willing to develop the skills to do so, I guess it's better to know that sooner rather than later.

Mary, i am quite aware of the reason that i haven't seen full blown aikido in our class and am under no illusion it can take years and years to progres, that wasn't the question.. my question was why are top level aikidoka's i.e. O Sensei Ukes on youtube with their own Uke not even shown to be receiving any kind of relevant attacks, which has been clearly answered by the people above who didnt seem to take offence to the question...

i am the last person to believe this is an art to be mastered within 3 classes :disgust:

ChrisHein
01-28-2010, 11:15 AM
but have just been wondering as you dont see many everyday attacks being demonstrated etc...

What is an everyday attack? We often think of unarmed attacks first, because that's what we see in the movies, or have experience with from our childhood "fights" on the play ground. But what is an everyday attack?

It depends on where you see yourself being "attacked". If you see yourself fighting in a sport venue, or you see yourself fighting over your ego, or a barstool, then unarmed attacks are probably "normal". However if you are a soldier, then being shot at is more an "everyday attack". If you think you are going to be mugged, or kidnapped, then it's likely you'll be assaulted with a knife, club or gun.

There are lot's of kinds of attacks, and more importantly lots of different motivations behind those attacks. In Aikido you are learning what samurai thought were everyday type attacks, this might not be what you are interested in.

lbb
01-28-2010, 12:58 PM
Mary, i am quite aware of the reason that i haven't seen full blown aikido in our class and am under no illusion it can take years and years to progres, that wasn't the question.. my question was why are top level aikidoka's i.e. O Sensei Ukes on youtube with their own Uke not even shown to be receiving any kind of relevant attacks, which has been clearly answered by the people above who didnt seem to take offence to the question...

I didn't "take offense" either, but apparently you took offense to my response; hence your use of the "disgust" emoticon, which I don't think was called for. Others in this thread pointed out that you hadn't provided any specific referents to these "top level aikidoka's", and that it is hard to answer a "why do they do that" question when the "that" is a generalization. In response to that, you repeated that you "have just been wondering as you dont see many everyday attacks being demonstrated etc.." That would seem to have already been explained, no? Thus, I'm not sure why you essentially repeated the question; hence my response. It's nothing to be disgusted at, really.

(edit) Oh, and just to clarify, in case it wasn't obvious: in my last paragraph, I wasn't talking about you, but about the individual at my dojo who apparently decided he wasn't progressing enough after two classes, and who evidently was disappointed at the idea of continuing train as a means of gaining proficiency. To quote Monty Python, "Three shall be the number of the counting, and the number thou shalt count shall be three."

Jay Gatsby
01-28-2010, 01:14 PM
I'm coming a bit late to this thread, but I've seen this "uke ready to jump" disease in my dojo as well, mostly by students who are nervous about taking ukemi. When we have had seminars, the yudansha who come to visit do not exhibit this sort of behavior. Their attacks are as fast as they believe nage can handle, and are quite real (though they pull up short if they sense that nage will be hurt if they were to complete their attack).

mathewjgano
01-28-2010, 03:38 PM
FWIW I really liked Chris's explanations overall.
Ideally a person probably shouldn't go into an attack with a floated center, which makes it easier to get tossed into the air or fall over, but I can see how when done with a purposeful awareness it could be a useful exercise for a number of reasons. For one thing I've always found tumbling and other mildly acrobatic practices to be quite useful during unplanned versions. For example, falling down a snowy hill at 20-30mph, or being tripped in a soccer game while running full out (I usually just roll and go). Interestingly I never get the foul called, but I stay in the interaction, usually to the surprise of the other player and always to my benefit. I say anything that teaches coordination is probably a good thing in its own right.
As for practicality and training, other folks have said it better than I will, but I think of all training as an approximation to begin with so none of it should be treated as Real, strictly speaking. For me that means training is there to develop a variety of skills, but it's up to me to internalize those so they can be expressed spontaneously as moment-to-moment needs may dictate.

Chris Knight
01-29-2010, 02:57 AM
What is an everyday attack? We often think of unarmed attacks first, because that's what we see in the movies, or have experience with from our childhood "fights" on the play ground. But what is an everyday attack?

It depends on where you see yourself being "attacked". If you see yourself fighting in a sport venue, or you see yourself fighting over your ego, or a barstool, then unarmed attacks are probably "normal". However if you are a soldier, then being shot at is more an "everyday attack". If you think you are going to be mugged, or kidnapped, then it's likely you'll be assaulted with a knife, club or gun.

There are lot's of kinds of attacks, and more importantly lots of different motivations behind those attacks. In Aikido you are learning what samurai thought were everyday type attacks, this might not be what you are interested in.

Thanks Chris, I suppose in my case it would mainly be empty handed drunken attacks?? although you never know your luck I suppose! You never know whats around the corner... I dont live in a particularly bad area but obviously knife crime is big in Britain at the moment...

I'm coming a bit late to this thread, but I've seen this "uke ready to jump" disease in my dojo as well, mostly by students who are nervous about taking ukemi. When we have had seminars, the yudansha who come to visit do not exhibit this sort of behavior. Their attacks are as fast as they believe nage can handle, and are quite real (though they pull up short if they sense that nage will be hurt if they were to complete their attack).
thanks michael, that helps explain things more to me... :)

tarik
01-30-2010, 12:08 AM
Just a few comments..

A floating center, as far as I can think about it, should only occur if your partner 'got' you and you have not yet recovered. So yeah, it would be a bit redundant to state it, but no attacks should be made with a floating center.

Jumping into ukemi is not only not for advanced uke, it's for beginners. That's a hard habit to break if you learn your ukemi that way in the first place and it's not necessary for protecting your joints unless uke is already much to tense going in. So learning appropriate ukemi from the beginning just strikes me as the best option. I don't want to learn or teach ANYTHING that has to be unlearned later.

With respect to practicality and reality.. well, everyone trains differently and really, we all train with people we care about and don't want to injure, so we naturally temper what we do.

However, it is a very common problem to change attacks in ways that are less than beneficial if we're really training with an eye towards maintaining the martial integrity of what is, after all, a martial art. Personally, I think the philosophical stuff is critical and yet less than meaningful if not not approached through the lens of dealing with attacks that push your buttons and make you deal with your 'flinch' (fight, flight, or freeze) response.

Experience, experimentation, and my teachers have taught me that I can do that without having to create either injury or totally lame attacks that never really affect my partner (or me). It's not THAT mysterious if you pay attention to how comfortable and uncomfortable making or receiving an attack makes you and you learn how to deal with that and slowly scale it up. Anyone who's sparred in other martial arts learns at least a little of this, although I think a lot of arts carry the macho aspect further than required in learning where to draw the line.

All I know is that I strive to sustain a training environment where a technique always happens, whether it is 'uke' attacking causing tori to take a fall, or tori taking sente and making technique themselves with both parties randomly testing one another.

All FWIW, which ain't much since I don't have a pony in this race.

Best,

Chris Knight
02-01-2010, 07:35 AM
As orginially described, heres one of the videos in which i thought the Uke were displaying no attacks on Tohei, and "looked" like they were running just to take the fall... especially against a man of Tohei's calibre... Im not sure what they're trying to demonstrate here??

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0k6K-0JblI

Any comments most welcome pls

CitoMaramba
02-01-2010, 08:06 AM
As orginially described, heres one of the videos in which i thought the Uke were displaying no attacks on Tohei, and "looked" like they were running just to take the fall... especially against a man of Tohei's calibre... Im not sure what they're trying to demonstrate here??

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0k6K-0JblI

Any comments most welcome pls

Looks like an ukemi demo to me...

Carsten Möllering
02-01-2010, 08:34 AM
As orginially described, heres one of the videos in which i thought the Uke were displaying no attacks on Tohei, and "looked" like they were running just to take the fall... especially against a man of Tohei's calibre... Im not sure what they're trying to demonstrate here??

Well I thought this would be a typicall element of Ki-Aikido?
I don't know, the meaning of those running attacks, but I don't see them in other styles of aikido, or am I wrong?
I don't think this is a demonstration of ukemi.

bulevardi
02-01-2010, 11:43 AM
my main confusion surrounds the fact that uke in a lot of attacks are constantly going for wrist grabs and there seems to be much less footage of intense attacks down the centre line....

i may be completely observing these wrong, but a lot of the time, uke's appear to be running especially to grab the wrists and already prepared to take a jump...


An aikidoka uke knows the technique and knows what's going to happen after his attack. He will move in the direction that's supposed to move and fall how it's supposed to be etc... It's a little bit unnatural and not street-wise combat.

In training, as uke, I sometimes attack my opponent as it should, with feet standing like it should etc...
But sometimes I put my feet different, not aikido-wise, sometimes by mistake.
Than I hear my opponent say: "hey, you put your feet the wrong way".
Than I think: "in a real attack, are you going to tell your opponent first to put his feet the right way?".

Same things for attacks, in real life it's more aggressive and with kicks etc... Not of those things happen in Aikido to train on.

I understand Aikido is a human friendly sport and training is just to train the techniques friendly. So the uke will most of the time not counterwork, he'll make the moves needed in the Aikido technique.
Aikido is more based on learning techniques, learning everything behind it, userfriendly. This way, Aikido is fun, but not always really self-defending in real life situations.

osaya
02-01-2010, 04:20 PM
hey OP, FYI, you might like to have a look at a very good thread (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17484) about the martial ineffectiveness of aikido.

very interesting read, and succinct perspectives about the martial aspects of aikido, especially by Sensei George L. although they don't discuss your questions specifically, they might answer some of the questions you have deeper down.

all the best.

Amir Krause
02-02-2010, 07:54 AM
In training, as uke, I sometimes attack my opponent as it should, with feet standing like it should etc...
But sometimes I put my feet different, not aikido-wise, sometimes by mistake.
Than I hear my opponent say: "hey, you put your feet the wrong way".
Than I think: "in a real attack, are you going to tell your opponent first to put his feet the right way?".


May your friend, in that setting, change the technique he is using?

Most times, when you train a technique in the dojo, you do it in a Kata manner: Sensei is defining a very specific situation as the Attack of Uke, and then Tori is expected to respond to that situation with a specific technique variation.

From my experience, as you will progress and feel more sensitive to Uke, you may start feeling that even a minor change of Uke stance calls for a change in the technique / variation. Not to mention directions of applied force and\or footing. Once one changes then so should the other.


Same things for attacks, in real life it's more aggressive and with kicks etc... Not of those things happen in Aikido to train on.


Depending on the dojo, "those things" may be part of the things you train on :D

I dislike seeing Uke ready to jump. Though at times, when demonstrating as Uke to Sensei I act the same way, and do my best to be as soft and sensitive as possible, for very selfish reasons.

Amir

ruthmc
02-04-2010, 07:54 AM
my question was why are top level aikidoka's i.e. O Sensei Ukes on youtube with their own Uke not even shown to be receiving any kind of relevant attacks

Hi Chris,

Looks like you didn't 'get' my previous reply, so I'll try again (ever the optimist ;) )

What you think you are seeing is unlikely to be what you are actually seeing. As we learn, our eyes get peeled like the layers of an onion, so as you progress you see and understand better. I know when I watched Aikido being demonstrated by senior instructors 15 years ago, I wasn't seeing the complexities and subtleties that I see now..

Also, bear in mind that older film wasn't quite up to capturing all the action in the way that modern equipment does! Add that to the distortion you get on YouTube videos and you won't be getting the best picture :(

IMHO the best way to improve your Aikido is to go to class and practise. Watching stuff on YouTube won't help you much as a new student.

As for the ukes with springs on their feet that everybody else is talking about, yes that happens and no it's not good, but that is a slightly different issue than the OP brought up in the first place IMHO :)

Back to you Chris, if you want 'realistic' attacks, then there is no one size fits all! The type of 'realistic' attack I can expect as a 30-something year old woman is quite different to what would be expected by a 20 year old man. The good thing about Aikido is that it teaches you principles which can be applied sucessfully to all of these attacks :)

Ruth

dalen7
02-04-2010, 03:00 PM
my main confusion surrounds the fact that uke in a lot of attacks are constantly going for wrist grabs and there seems to be much less footage of intense attacks down the centre line....

i may be completely observing these wrong, but a lot of the time, uke's appear to be running especially to grab the wrists and already prepared to take a jump...

I must have missed those videos, typically everything is shihonage that I see. :D

Seriously the whole idea of Aikido being about grabbing wrist is interesting to me, and not quite sure why that is what most people think of - maybe due to the fact that it is a starting point in Aikido. [you have to start somewhere.]

Basically we attack the following:

- wrist
- shoulders
- elbows
- head
- neck
- legs

etc.,

The attacks are for every body part, we even have kicks [to a limited extent] as part of our 2nd kyu test.

Again, we start with wrist, because fact is, if your new to Aikido it can be quite weird starting off not knowing where to put what foot, etc. [It was awkward for me, and I chalked it down to me learning in Hungarian... but then I saw our new guys and it was as awkward for them.]

Once you get the hang of it, things flow and you just apply principles to various situations. If you want, do cross-training and try to apply what you learned in Aikido there. [It can be enlightening to be sure.]

[dont forget the spiritual aspect, as well as how to really win a fight - finding out why you got in the situation to begin with is a start and if you could have avoided it.] ;)

As for Uke ready to jump... Ill tell you, if I know what someone is going to do Im not going to procrastinate... some of these guys know what they are doing and I dont feel like having my wrist out of sorts for a couple of weeks like when I first began. [so they may not be moving for the reason you think. i.e., to make it look like it works, but because it does and quite frankly they are trying to protect their joints.]

Also, you work on speed and trying to get out of something... i.e., roll out of ikkyo to see how well they are actually applying the technique... and then do a reverse technique on them - this is always a winner. :D

As for defense, Aikido is about joints...

the attacks are to:

- wrist
- elbow
- shoulders
- combos of the above, etc.

Then apply that to:

- legs
- feet,
- etc.,

Again Aikido is rich and fun... its really what you make it out to be. :D

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
Thinking about it, I can see why someone would attack wrist though... If they get a hold of you there are some mighty fun techniques to use to control you... [uchi-kaiten sankyo is just pure fun]

Of course a punch to the face may be needed... point is you cant limit the possibilities - or you can, and then it becomes what you made of it. ;)

Gorgeous George
03-19-2010, 11:10 PM
I've always thought it was funny that while aikido is often criticized for "unrealistic" wrist grabs, the round beating the MMA guy dealt Yanagi Ryuken was preceded by, of all things, a wrist grab.

HAHAHAHAHA.
Yeah: i noticed that too. As soon as i saw it i said 'If this guy knew aikido, he'd have finished this guy right then: how dare they call him an aikido master'.

Poor old aiki-master; beating up an old man can't have made the other guy feel very good either. At least his students can stop wasting their time with him now though.

wideawakedreamer
03-20-2010, 07:28 AM
As for Uke ready to jump... Ill tell you, if I know what someone is going to do Im not going to procrastinate... some of these guys know what they are doing and I dont feel like having my wrist out of sorts for a couple of weeks like when I first began. [so they may not be moving for the reason you think. i.e., to make it look like it works, but because it does and quite frankly they are trying to protect their joints.]



When I'm uke I try not to make it too easy for nage to throw me. That being said, there are some sempai who can do a technique so well that I just have to be ready to fall/tap out/or yell. Or all three.

Marc Abrams
03-20-2010, 08:30 AM
If an uke is taking ukemi, then some degree of collusion is taking place. This can be appropriate as a learning tool for a nage trying to learn techniques. A throwing technique done properly is one in which the uke has no choice as to taking ukemi; it simply happens.

Marc Abrams

Hellis
03-20-2010, 02:41 PM
I was taught a firm lesson by TK Chiba Sensei in the late 1960s, we did a demonstration on Granada TV, knowing how important this TV appearance was for Aikido, the first technique I did what I later realized was a `BIG` ukemi..........Chiba Sensei snarled in my ear " Mr Ewiss, I don't need your help anymore !! ", he then proceeded to hammer me around the mat totally without my cooperation.
www.british-aikido.com