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03-28-2002, 10:19 PM
I was just looking over the nonviolent thred and wondered.. what is the most painful throw to you?? yonajo? sankajo? or just falling at all?? what hurts the most for you in aikido prectice? I know some people who say that in a dojo eviorment that nothing should hurt but the truth is MA hurts when you train. for me the most painful throw is Yokajo that pressure point hurts like heck...

well, have fun!

03-28-2002, 10:28 PM
Yonkyo is definitely high on my list, because my freakish flexiblity that takes the pain away from most other techniques offers absolutely no help with this one. And though I can't feel nikkyo from most nage, I can certainly feel it from my sensei, and he just loves to lay into me on this one:freaky:--payback for all the times he couldn't pin me I guess. :) Last week, I got to be his uke for when he was teaching a bunch of newbies nikkyo. Lucky me. The nice thing about it was that I didn't even get time between each application to let my wrist rest a little bit. It was just OW! Drop. Up. OW! Drop. Up. Damn I love this stuff!

03-29-2002, 01:39 AM
I don't get much pain out of most techniques:) ---combination of not much muscle wrapped around my joints and yonkyo immunity:rolleyes: -- so I guess I'd say the only one that registers is a particular kokyu nage (some of you would call it irimi nage) in the hands of one particular sensei. My feet fly up, and my upper body meets the mat first... the only time I've actually seen stars from a fall... Once he's thrown me, it takes a lot of internal arguing to hop up and attack him again.

Bruce Baker
03-29-2002, 06:09 AM
When nage goes too far to achieve feedback and actually puts everythings into the throw while you have totally lost ukemi ... the mat is not where it supposed to be but the hard floor replaced the mat, OUCH!!

It could be anything from ikkyo to gonkyo into a throw, but if done with hips and body while using saguri(linear cut vertical) or slamming at forty five degree angle or less, It can be as painful as any joint lock as your insides shake and your brain turns to jelly?

When they ask"... are you alright?"

Just say, " I almost had that Waskily Wabbit!"

You will sit out the rest of practice, or until the birdys and spots go away?

Bruce Baker
03-29-2002, 06:27 AM
That was too silly a response ... seriously.

Some people have very loose joints, from practice, or just as a natural body trait. In order to properly deliver a joint lock, you either have to learn to feel the tightness of a twist, or add a base to extend the stretch of the joint, securing complacentcy of your partner ... plus giving them the opportunity to feel what you feel, pain. This is not being mean, but you should be versed in the variety of tensions needed to make techniques work! (Although, sometimes we are too kind in Aikido, that we even throw ourselves to avoid pain and stay ahead of a technique?)

Whether it is moving your hand to use the fingers, or parts of the hand to create the base, or simply add a twist to the bend, you must study these things to effectively create the pain, also known a opening/diversion, to continue to properly protect yourself and give your partner the opportunity to experience protecting themselves while looking for the openings in your technique.

Once you start to understand the variety of tensions it takes to create pain, the use of proper body movement, the hips / not the arms or upper body, you have to be even more careful as injuries come that much quicker than they did with improper movement.

Sometimes the pain the most painful throw is inatttention by one of the partners to blend with the movements and technique of the other ... that is presupposing they haven't gone too far and entered the injury zone of pain?

I was there a couple of times? All I remember is the cool breeze, the wave of sleep, then smelling salts with people asking, "... are you alright"

That would be a NO! I passed out didn't I?

03-29-2002, 09:38 AM
I've found that when I experience significant pain as uke, it is usually either because I am not doing proper ukemi, or nage is not applying the technique correctly. That said, one technique that can be pretty uncomforable is hijishime, because of the strain on the elbow. Just my two cents.

Lyle Bogin
03-29-2002, 10:03 AM
There is a difference between pain, and the feeling of imminent injury.

Pain, as they say, don't hurt.

However, nage's who suddenly spike their techniques and people who show no regard for your safety...that hurts.

03-29-2002, 01:46 PM
I agree, there's a fine line between joint manipulation pain and big throws, ala iriminage, koshinage, and of course kotegaeshi, which combines both pain and a big throw. I'd rather take a vicious nikkyo than face a vicious iriminage. With nikkyo, I know it's only pain to my wrist and that it won't break. Iriminage ... when I finally regain consciousness, I'll let you know.

03-29-2002, 02:44 PM
Well the most painfull throw I know is where nage puts all his energy in a very fast moving uke, and.....

uke lands outside the mats but still slaps the floor.

03-29-2002, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by sleepyshark
With nikkyo, I know it's only pain to my wrist and that it won't break. Iriminage ... when I finally regain consciousness, I'll let you know.
I think that every technique can cause tremendous amounts of damage when done "correctly." Taking nikyo as an example, nage can also be moving back or turning in the direction of the nikyo, thereby causing a lot of damage to the wrist and elbow. I've met at least one person whose wrist and elbow were damaged probably at least a decade ago from nikyo and he still feels its damaging effects to this day.

Even a "simple" technique like ikkyo can up-end uke so his feet go flying up and his head hit the ground first. Having taken breakfalls from ikkyo from people like my teacher before, it's a very devestating technique.

My personal feeling is that thinking "It's only pain" as uke is a dangerous assumption.

Lastly on a tangential note, my thinking is that any technique that relies on pain is sure to not work on certain people. Better to use principles like kuzushi to destroy their ability to fight...

-- Jun

03-31-2002, 09:58 AM
Don't mix the throws with the controls... technically know matter what you do... nikkyo is never a throw as such... it is katame-waza or osae-waza (controlling or pinning techniques) and nage-waza (throws, plain and simple)

Anything can be very painful when crossin the line between the true Aikido and executing Aikido techniques:)

My worst moments have been koshinage (trying to get up and start breathing normally:freaky: And surprise-surprise - Techin-nage after my sensei discovered that it's cool to hit you down with practically a very strong shomen and call that also a tenchin-nage. Shihonage is everyday pain:)

Of controls... uhm... nikkyo would be my pick... especially some freaky derived variantions.

:o Aikido techniques can be very painful, injuring and deadly... true Aikido in whole - NEVER!

Estonian Aikikai

03-31-2002, 03:36 PM
I think you have to be careful to differentiate between pain and control. The pain may arise, especially in pinning techniques, but it is just a tool to keep control over the center of uke. But it is necessary - as a control whether nage applies the technique correctly. I may be wrong (started just a few months ago), but anyway..:blush:

Painful throws? A lot of experience for me, mostly with people who just want to show off and forget that I am just a beginner. And one special day, when sensei showed me that Yes, ikkyo can be very fast and effective in bringing uke down on the mat. He told me to relax completely before he did it - fortunately for my shoulder joint..:freaky:

Steff :)

03-31-2002, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by Steff
I think you have to be careful to differentiate between pain and control. The pain may arise, especially in pinning techniques, but it is just a tool to keep control over the center of uke. But it is necessary - as a control whether nage applies the technique correctly.
I don't think pain is a necessary component of any technique; it may happen as a side effect, but I don't think it's the primary purpose of any technique.

Pain is not guaranteed to affect everybody out there. People on drugs or those with high pain thresholds will just shrug it off. I've had the opportunity to try my best nikyo on my teacher and he just stood there. Asked if it hurt by someone else, he said, "Oh, it hurts, but it's not something that would take me out of action"...

-- Jun

03-31-2002, 11:48 PM
Pain? I have yet to experience pain practicing Aikido...then again I'm a beginner (5 months) perhaps everyone is being overly nice when throwing.