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Thomas Donelson
04-12-2009, 04:17 PM
Karate training is available to sub-teens, younger than 13.

Training school children how to hit, strike or kick other children may be incomplete training for the school, playground and soccer field environments.

My idea is that if the youngsters stay standing, and don't hit, then teachers don't have to implement discipline. So there are several goals of wrist lock training, aimed at both opponents remaining standing, and training to avoid getting hurt, or inflicting injury.

One Goal of my wrist lock training is to have youngsters avoid getting disciplined, or having witnesses say "That child hit _____." Often witnesses see only part of a confrontation, so even if witnesses are interested in giving a truthful account, striking or kicking in a confrontation, risks a truthful witness giving part of a story, that fails to give the true picture, and can make a child using permissable, lawful self-defense, look guilty.

One concern I have is that when I first learned a wrist techniques, my partner was really upset with me, because I had no judgement about the pain I was causing my partner. So injury is possible, so I am trying to build sensitivity into the training, as a first step.

I am starting to learn more about wrist locks. I know two.

One is with two thumbs on the back of the opponent's hand, bending the hand at the wrist. One hand wrapped around each side of the opponent's hand. The grasp can be initiated as the opponent tries to strike, or other wise extends an arm. Stepping left, right, or backward, forward, to keep a position from which it is difficult for the opponent to strike or kick.

Another wrist lock is for one hand to grab the opponent's arm, just below the wrist, and with the other hand, push the palm against the knuckles of the opponent's hand, bending the hand at the wrist some 80 or 90 Degrees.

I ordered the Roy Dean Wrist-Lock Video. I could call some Aikido instructors, to find their recommendations of books. I have stopped by, some places, when they were closed, or busy. I could be more diligent in stopping by Dojos.

I just did some searches on Amazon. Alibris and a library; Found some more books and DVD's. So I will post back to this thread at least over the next few months. Just starting.

..

Thomas Donelson
04-12-2009, 04:38 PM
I found a thread with some Book References. I need to get a glossary of terms for posting on this forum.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10546&highlight=Glossary

Here is a thread with a reference to You Tube.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11134&highlight=Glossary

..

Kevin Leavitt
04-12-2009, 05:45 PM
One Goal of my wrist lock training is to have youngsters avoid getting disciplined, or having witnesses say "That child hit _____." Often witnesses see only part of a confrontation, so even if witnesses are interested in giving a truthful account, striking or kicking in a confrontation, risks a truthful witness giving part of a story, that fails to give the true picture, and can make a child using permissable, lawful self-defense, look guilty.

I am not sure I understand.

You are teaching kids wristlocks they could avoid getting in trouble by using physical force that appears to be less "witnessed"?

You only know two?

What is your background/qualifications to be teaching this stuff to kids?

This is a huge, huge area of responsibility with lots of room for misinterpretation, psychology, and mis-application.

I'd be careful, if you are looking for advice, but I am not sure I completely understand what it is that you are doing and why.

I understand inner city DC some if that is what you are getting at, so yea, I understand the need for a different approach in some areas.

However, I'd think that a more holistic approach to conflict resolution might be more appropriate that teaching subtle forms of jiu-jitsu that can really hurt someone if applied wrong.

I have been doing martial arts for along time and have a very decent background in jiu-jitsu and I would be very hesitant to teach wristlocks to anyone outright. In fact, I pretty much don't teach them until well over a year or so into training to be honest.

I'd probably be looking at this kind of an approach to martial arts training with kids that deal with gangs, violence or the need for self defense vice the tactical aspects of application.

http://www.tricycle.com/feature/peace-street

Good luck!

Michael Hackett
04-12-2009, 07:32 PM
I have to echo what Kevin is saying. IF you are thinking of teaching wrist lock techniques to kids in school, you'd better know what you are doing on several levels. On the first level, you had better know the actual techniques to a teacher's level of competence. Secondly, you'd better get a formal buy-in or approval from school officials. Thirdly, you better know what the various laws of self-defense are in your jurisdiction, particularly as they apply to students and/or the school setting.

Since you mention that you only know two wrist locks, I assume that you are not an experienced martial arts instructor. If that is correct, you are heading into more trouble than you can imagine.

You can certainly learn something from the Roy Dean material, but that is only part of the equation - the HOW is the easy part; the WHY and WHEN are far more important.

If you are a teacher, don't plan on being awarded tenure if you proceed. If you are a student, plan on getting your fanny kicked by the bullies on campus and being thrown out of school yourself. While your intentions may be noble, the reality you face will be unpleasant. I don't enjoy raining on your parade, but I'm concerned that you're all wet anyway.

Fred Little
04-12-2009, 08:44 PM
In addition to the sage advice Kevin and Michael have provided, I would point out more generally that wrist locks involve bone growth plates and it might be a good "best practice" to leave techniques that stress bone growth plates be until the bones are fully grown, even in instances where the instructor is well-trained and otherwise competent.

YMMV,

Fred Little

mathewjgano
04-12-2009, 10:37 PM
My idea is that if the youngsters stay standing, and don't hit, then teachers don't have to implement discipline. So there are several goals of wrist lock training, aimed at both opponents remaining standing, and training to avoid getting hurt, or inflicting injury.
Hi Thomas,
In this situation I don't think locks would preclude the need for teachers to issue discipline. If one student lays hands on another in any way that is aggressive, discipline of some form is required: period. It could be anything from a verbal warning to a police call depending on the particulars of the situation and age of the students. Disciplining students is simply part of the job of teachers. I like that you're trying to streamline things, but I'm not sure locks instead of strikes is the way to do it. I love the idea of training to avoid getting hurt or inflicting injury though! That is spot on in my book.

One Goal of my wrist lock training is to have youngsters avoid getting disciplined, or having witnesses say "That child hit _____." Often witnesses see only part of a confrontation, so even if witnesses are interested in giving a truthful account, striking or kicking in a confrontation, risks a truthful witness giving part of a story, that fails to give the true picture, and can make a child using permissable, lawful self-defense, look guilty.
Maybe I should ask this: what is the point of having youngsters avoid getting disciplined? Also, accidentally spraining or breaking someone's wrist because that person moved poorly (e.g. wasn't given training on how to avoid getting hurt) is just as bad, if not worse, than a punch to the face.

One concern I have is that when I first learned a wrist techniques, my partner was really upset with me, because I had no judgement about the pain I was causing my partner. So injury is possible, so I am trying to build sensitivity into the training, as a first step.
And that was in a contolled environment I presume. Imagine someone with slight training operating in a more hectic situation. Instead of a bruised cheek you could have a broken wrist instead. I'm not trying to say kids can't learn wrist locks in a way that reaches the goals you have in mind, but there are many liability issues at play here I think.

I am starting to learn more about wrist locks. I know two.
Learning the basic form is easy I think. It can take a lot longer to learn how to apply them with serious precision, and that seems to be what you're describing. Books and videos are great for learning the basic form, but it takes some serious study to get beyond that, let alone to teach it very well.
If you're looking to teach kids how to avoid getting into trouble from fighting situations, teach them ways to evade and deescalate.

raul rodrigo
04-12-2009, 11:13 PM
In our own dojo, we refuse to teach wrist locks to kids below 12. The danger of damaging bones and tendons that are still growing is too great. Even with one of my 15 year olds, I dont stress the locks a lot, for fear he might do it too hard on his 14 year sister, also in my class. All in good time.

With enough training, you can become sensitive enough to know exactly when the lock begins to "bite"--to hurt uke, and so you can pull back a bit. But that can take years of training. Since you don't have a teacher, I can't see how that sensitivity can develop--outside of an outraged uke bopping you on the head and saying, "too hard!" Not a formula for good practice, since neither of you can really trust that the other knows enough when to stop.

Thomas Donelson
04-13-2009, 12:37 AM
Thank you for the words of Caution.

Some of the above posts have suggested Words for De-escalation of a conflict. I have previously started a thread, "Shouts for Sub Teens"

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15236

So I agree that words are better than Dancing with Wrist Locks.

I also agree that Wrist Locks can cause injury, and that is one reason I have hesitated, in the past, to proceed.

One of my approaches has been to advocate to Karate instructors about teaching kids to dance with wrist-locks, so my personal liability is limited.

The goals I have in mind are to keep standing, and keep the opponent standing, while preventing injury. So Wrist Locks, together with positioning footwork, seems to fulfill those goals. Have I missed other options?

Some Aikido training is aimed at putting the attacker on the ground. The idea being that it is difficult for an attacker to strike from the ground, and it is easier for a victim to step out of reach of the attacker, if the attacker is on the ground. Some children have been disciplined for "Pushing" when an attacker child is witnessed to be on the ground. So keeping the attacker bully standing, seems like a better option.

Further, another idea of Aikido, is to get the attacker youngster talking. Some of the suggestions for Shouts from the victim are Questions, Aimed at getting the Attacker to Talk, or shout back. The process of getting the attacker talking, sometimes stimulates the attacker to think, and sometimes to reconsider his/her actions. This is part of the process of placing an attacker on the floor, because the process of the attacker getting back up, the attacker sometimes re-thinks his/her intentions to continue the attack.

Maybe the process of dancing will stimulate the attacker to rethink the decision to continue the attack. The steps in dancing, should be taken to avoid injury to the attacker, to keep the attacker off-balance so the attacker cannot kick or hit or bite; But also to allow the attacker a measure of expression, in choosing the direction of the next repositioning dance steps.

While a wrist injury can be serious, punching a child in the face can cause a bleeding gash in the face. Boxers wear boxing gloves to avoid the Knuckles of the fist from causing the face to bleed. A youngster striking the face of another youngster, even purely defensively, risks the bully looking like the victim, with blood streaming down his cheek and chin. Many bullies will accuse the victim of being the attacker, when things are being sorted out by the principal. In addition to contradicting pacifist teachings of "Turn the other cheek", striking a bully in the face carries the risk of reverse appearances.

A gash in the face may require stitches, which could mean an ambulance trip to the hospital. A wrist injury is less obvious, and less painful. So wrist locks carry less risk of discipline, even when injury might occur. Even though it might be a highly effective deterrent, just to punch the bully squarely in the face.

..

Kevin Leavitt
04-13-2009, 04:59 AM
This is certainly a difficult topic to communicate about over a thread as there is a lot of "non-verbal" communication that goes on in the process that I am sure we are missing.

That said, based on what you have described above, I can't agree with your reasoning at all.

I believe if you are going to use martial arts training, specifically aikido, to help kids deal with bullies etc it must be taking almost entirely as a holistic tool to teach kids how to better understand themselves and their emotional, mental and physical states when they are dealing with situations that are stressful, deal with peer pressure and bullies.

It is complex.

I thiink if you are approaching it from a tactical standpoint of "how to engage a bully physically without showing any signs or preception of injury or agression". You are completely wrong. I would not even teach my soldiers this way. It is dangerous to both parties, the one you are teaching especially I think!

Students are either in a fight or they are not. Assuming that you are teaching the "good" side of the fight, that is the one that does not want to fight, then you are sending them a message that it is okay to engage in a fight....as long as you don't leave any marks or show any signs.

OR you are teaching them the preception that they should attempt to control the situation within a narrow set of guidelines when indeed, most likely those options (the option of choice) has been taken away from them and they could not walk away from the fight and must engage in something that may be serious.

You are teaching them ways to lose on many, many levels IMO.

Conflict resolution is a very difficult set of skills to learn. I have been struggling with this for many, many years, and I personally do not possess the skills that you are professing to teach your students.

If I have the choice to walk away from a physical altercation, then I do so, at all cost.

If I don't, then I fight. I fight to get control of the situation, kuzushi with my opponent on the ground and I am in control. What happens after that is what happens. I had no choice. (philosophically I do, but that is another discussion) and now must deal with the consequences of said fight.

If it required striking, pushing, or creating distance to gain control then that is what it takes...remember, the choice to fight has been taken from me and I am fighting to prevent myself from getting injured.

If I am in control of the fight, then I don't really need those skills do I? I can choose to disengage and walk away.

I tihink this is the dynamic you should be teaching your kids. That fighting is serious, that it has 2nd and 3rd order effects that can live with you for the rest of your life. That when you fight, you do so cause you have no options left.

Your training should center around teaching them that there are many, many ways and that skill can be gained to avoid physical confrontation.

But when it does happen, here are the tools and things you have and this is the damage that they can cause...so be careful when you make that decision to fight....it has responsibility..great responsibility.

Wrist locks and "aiki tactics" are very narrow in the dynamic of the fight. They can get you in over your head and in big trouble trying to fight from such a narrow paradigm.

I think you are setting up conditions that are very dangerous if you approach training this way.

Kevin Leavitt
04-13-2009, 05:24 AM
A few more thoughts. I think this might make more sense.

If you have Roy's DVD, watch it. Note that in all cases or practical application that Roy is in a position of dominance. that is, before the wristlock will work, you have placed uke in a position in which you have kuzushi, or are in a dominant position.

That means that you have choice, you have control of the situation in order to gain control of the wrist lock. They don't work otherwise.

Therefore, if you are in that position, assuming that there are no weapons involved, then what purpose is the wristlock anyway? It becomes the next level of escalation, which in all cases I can think of, is unethical and excessive in the use of force. You can keep the threat of it there, but the actual use of it becomes un-necesary.

This is a big reason why we spend so much time in BJJ on teaching positional control/dominance before we even touch wristlocks. Again, I won't even teach them until the senior blue belt level which is well over a year of solid, dedicated BJJ training.

However, not to be "too sarcastic".....

Many people will buy a tape like "secrets of the wrist lock" and look at it in isolation of all the other factors and dynamics of a situation and think that they have something powerful and proceed to ignore all the other important aspects of the situation that actually are present.

Then we end up with aikidoka that say "I tried aikido on my friends and it did not work. therefore, Aikido does not work in a fight."

Or we get someone hurt badly because they did not understand they full dynamic and range of what it is that they are training.

Wrist locks are not for controlling people for the most part. Positional dominance is primary or that. I'd spend time with your students on these aspects first.

Thomas Donelson
04-13-2009, 08:52 AM
The vision of the confrontation, at school, or on the soccer field, is a progression. Walking away may be an option. Standing ground to agressive intent, is a decision, with a range of times available.

Deciding not to back down, then the victim trained in Aikido wrist lock dancing, would wait for the attacking bully to make a move with his hands, in grabbing or striking.

Shouts such "Please Let Go of me", or "You are hurting Me", or "That Hurt", or "Stop Hitting me" or "Why are you threatening me?" or "Why are you trying to hit me?" can be attempted.

At the same time that defusing phrases are being comtemplated, the victim can position his feet, so that if the bully does try to strike him, that he can evsion various wrist locks to apply and directions to step, in dancing with the Bully.

While envisoning wrist locks to apply, with force, the sensivity to injuring the bully can be contemplated, and as wrist locks are applied, the amount of force needed can be envisioned and judged.

There may be cases, in which your suggestion of applying total control and forcing to the ground, may be necessary. If the bully is on an assignment from a gang, or a criminal, operating as part of a planned heist, then allowing the perpetrator to vent would be of no use.

Ordinarily Gang members are not on assignments, and are just acting tough, and unloved. So deomonstrating concern for the bully, and listening to him rant, and encouraging the attacker to vent, can be part of the defusing process.

The friends of the victim, after the confronation has defused, might say, "Wow, I would have run away. You stood your ground."

Respect from classmates or team-mates can be gained by standing up. Certainly the shouts, wrist locks and dancing may not win every fight. But if the victim has conducted himself in a principled manner, then he/she can have self-respect.

A good sequence of teaching might be for the shouts, the self-control, the channeling of KI, the Injury prevention blocking of strikes, the converting the blocks to wrist holds, and the prevention of injury to an attacker, by practicing sensitivity in wrist holds, and then dance steps.

..

raul rodrigo
04-13-2009, 10:25 AM
That's all very well, Thomas, but what makes you think that you would be qualified to be teaching this set of skills?

Michael Hackett
04-13-2009, 10:26 AM
To paraphrase what Kevin Leavitt recently posted, wrist locks are merely one tool in a toolbox of techniques. In order to use them successfully, you must have a fundamental skill set at your command. These include having situational awareness, getting off the line of attack, blending with the attack, taking the attacker's balance and then applying the lock with the appropriate amount of force. Those skills require both an instructor and practice to develop. Without the foundation, simply grasping or catching an attacker's wrist and trying to apply a lock is almost fruitless. It can be done, but the success rate is very, very low.

Your basic concept of trying to find a less-violent response to an attack is worthwhile. Kids, particularly inner city kids, are faced with real-world threats today and they do need help to protect themselves. You might consider visiting various martial arts dojo in your area and discussing your concerns and ideas with the instructors. They may put you on a successful track.

Something that continues to bother me from your first post was the idea that a kid could use the "Aikido wrist lock dancing" to avoid being disciplined at school. While some schools have a zero tolerance policy and discipline aggressor and victim alike, many investigate these events and discipline only the aggressor. It struck me that the victim in your scenario would have some sort of plausible deniability and that isn't much of a lesson for our kids either.

Lastly, I'm still not sure whether you are an educator yourself or a student. It matters in this discussion.

Garth Jones
04-13-2009, 11:03 AM
I think Kevin is spot on with his comments on position and dominance. Trying to apply a wrist lock without movement blending is a sure way to get grabbed hard or hit. For example,most beginning aikido students go through a phase during which they try to catch the wrist out of the air as a punch is coming in. In the controlled setting of a dojo this can be corrected gently - out on the street the person is just going to get hit.

Movement, blending, taking balance, all of that precedes a throw or lock, even if only by an instant. I teach kids in the age range you are interested in and I think, as others have said, that a more holistic approach is needed. Joint locks require technical precision and a good deal of practice to get right. If a kid tries one and their attacker doesn't go down, then they are in a wrestling match and a heap of trouble.

Also, Raul is right about developing joints. We don't do most of the aikido wrist locks with our kids either. An over torqued joint can be a severe and long term injury - it might be seen as a much larger use of force than you might think.

Anyway, I would highly recommend developing a stronger background before showing anything to kids. There are a number of excellent aikido dojos in the DC metro area as well as any other martial art you might be interested in.

Garth

Janet Rosen
04-13-2009, 11:07 AM
I am another voice against wrist locks on kids - in kids aikido classes it is what we DON'T do because of the growth plates and other issues. Teaching kids to move off the line, evade, block a punch, yell NO, fall without getting hurt, as well as the discipline of lining up, bowing, etc is all much more valuable then any locks or techniques.

Ron Tisdale
04-13-2009, 11:35 AM
Please read carefully the following thread:

Bad Advice and Self Defense
link (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16015)

Best,
Ron

Thomas Donelson
04-13-2009, 02:08 PM
I have ordered the Roy Dean Wrist-Lock video, but have not yet watched it. Thanks for the words of caution. I do not have a particular time table for advancing.

Kevin Leavitt
04-13-2009, 04:06 PM
Sounds good Thomas. If you have time and want to get together sometime to discuss in the DC area I would be happy to do so, as it might be more productive to actually be able to discuss using physical descriptions vice trying to write about it here.

If you are talking about gangs "on mission" etc, then there are alot of things going on in the situation than simply "non-committed" bullying and wristlocks IMO will not work without alot of other structure in place.

There are some real good BJJ schools in the area, and to be honest, I think those are probably what would most be able to give you the skills you are looking to transmit to your kids. Unfortunately, it is a huge time commitment to learning that needs to take place over many, many months of regular training.

Let me know if you are interested in linking up somewhere in the area to discuss further.

eyrie
04-13-2009, 10:43 PM
Perhaps the thread title should read "appropriate anti-bullying strategies and techniques using an aiki-based approach"?

I agree with the points that Kevin raised, and point you back to Janet's excellent post. There are other, more appropriate ways to deal with bullies, which do not necessarily involve having to physically "do something" to the bully.

In the majority of cases involving schoolyard bullying, the bullies almost always NEVER physically initiate the altercation. More often than not, they would verbally instigate the target in order to draw a physical response - IOW, some are savvy enough to work within the edges of the rules.

Mark Uttech
04-13-2009, 10:57 PM
Onegaishimasu. I have always been of the opinion that wrist and joint locks should not be taught even to responsible teens and subteens unless you can also teach counters. There is such a phenomenon as "aikido bullies". In gassho, Mark

Kevin Leavitt
04-14-2009, 06:26 AM
yeah, aiki-bullies...another topic. How many of us have been on the receiving end of some jackass that decides during cooperative practice that he is going to take you out with Nikkyo, ignoring all the other things you could do to him, but don't cause that is not the point of training?

I hate that!

Again, another topic, but certainly is an outgrowth of this topic.

Mark Uttech is correct.

It is kinda like not knowing what hand tools are all about and then you discover a hammer. You want to go around and find all the different things you can hammer and the effect the hammer has on them.

I have found wristlocks are like that. Teach one to someone that has no concept of the complete dynamic and nikkyo or kotegaeshi is the bomb!

I know I thought this way the first time I learned it. Man, I thought, this is the schizzle! It solves all my problems! bamm!

Then I ran into Mr. "I don't know aikido", but I have (insert boxed, grappled, street fight).....

and my wrist lock world came crumbling apart!

There is a whole pyschology that comes with teaching techniques without the principles and fundamentals of movement. It cost me years of my training early on!

gdandscompserv
04-14-2009, 07:11 AM
In the majority of cases involving schoolyard bullying, the bullies almost always NEVER physically initiate the altercation. More often than not, they would verbally instigate the target in order to draw a physical response - IOW, some are savvy enough to work within the edges of the rules.
References/citations please.

morph4me
04-14-2009, 08:49 AM
If I'm understanding correctly you aren't qualified to be teaching wristlocks, so get someone who is. Joint locks aren't something you play with, without proper training and control a joint lock turns into a break, or tears things that you don't want torn, and in some cases cause damage that only surgery can repair, and done incorrectly, will just put you in a position to be hurt by the person you're trying to control. You don't hand tools to people who don't know how to use them properly, especially if you aren't qualified to teach them.

Basia Halliop
04-14-2009, 10:23 AM
The goals I have in mind are to keep standing, and keep the opponent standing, while preventing injury. So Wrist Locks, together with positioning footwork, seems to fulfill those goals. Have I missed other options?

You seem to have a perception that wrist locks are a soft gentle way of gently restraining someone, and comparatively easy to learn? That's not been my own experience... they mostly seem to work by forcing joints in directions they were never designed to go. They basically work by putting stresses on various joints (the one directly being manipulated, but also, through leverage, other joints e.g. elbow, shoulder). Some more than others, maybe, but from what I understand they're not mostly designed to leave someone both standing and uninjured (sometimes only one or the other...). When I've been taught them, we practice them quite carefully as it's actually kind of easy to accidentally injure someone. Personally, my worst injury in aikido was from a wrist lock that was just a tad too hard and sudden and tore something in my forearm -- a tendon, if I remember right -- and it took 6 weeks to heal, (and ice and taping and ibuprofen and physiotherapy).

Additionally, getting control of someone's hand who is actually in the middle of hitting you is not at all trivial.

Thomas Donelson
04-14-2009, 10:41 AM
... they mostly seem to work by forcing joints in directions they were never designed to go. They basically work by putting stresses on various joints (the one directly being manipulated, but also, through leverage, other joints e.g. elbow, shoulder).

..it's actually kind of easy to accidentally injure someone. Personally, my worst injury in aikido was from a wrist lock that was just a tad too hard and sudden and tore something in my forearm -- a tendon, if I remember right -- and it took 6 weeks to heal, (and ice and taping and ibuprofen and physiotherapy).

.

Thanks for the isight that wrist locks can injure more than the wrist.

I run into parents who take their sub-teen children to Karate. I think that striking and kicking other kids is generaly a bad idea. Particulary without the options of dancing. The part of the philosphy of Aikido that is intended to foster respect and dispute resolution, can be illustrated with an Aikido wrist lock dance.

I am demonstrating writst locks to Parents and to Karagte insgtructors. I may limit my instruction to children directly, but the risk of injury would be a first topic.

Is ther a reason that Karate instructors cannot incorporate some teaching of Aikdo Energy flow for venting about problems?.

..

Thomas Donelson
04-14-2009, 10:43 AM
References/citations please.

Ther are various types of bullies. Sneaky bullies can take on a taunting role. Finding ways to enrage other youngsters is a pastime for some bullies.

Basia Halliop
04-14-2009, 10:55 AM
The part of the philosphy of Aikido that is intended to foster respect and dispute resolution, can be illustrated with an Aikido wrist lock dance.

I'm actually not sure what you mean, because I've never heard of a 'wrist lock dance' so I'm not positive what you're trying to say or what image you have in your mind.

Is ther a reason that Karate instructors cannot incorporate some teaching of Aikdo Energy flow for venting about problems?

Again, I'm not sure from your choice of words what you mean.

Just that to teach something, that persons needs to really _know_ it themself first, and know it quite well if they wish to teach it. (For example, since you seem to have a bit more experience with karate, perhaps I can use that as an example -- would you encourage someone to get instruction in how to punch or kick or box from someone who read a book about it once or watched a video?)

If you're interested in teaching skills from aikido or in encouraging someone to teach aikido, the first key would be to find a really good local aikido instructor.

If on further reflection what you are interested in is more something along the lines of non-physical conflict resolution skills, again, look around and see who's already around who knows it well.

Just IMHO as a student.

Garth Jones
04-14-2009, 11:17 AM
Is ther a reason that Karate instructors cannot incorporate some teaching of Aikdo Energy flow for venting about problems?.

..

No reason at all, except for the fact that they may never have studied aikido and do not have the experience to teach it. I've been training in aikido for more than 20 years now and I can't say very much at all about karate (or kung fu, or tae kwon do, or savate, etc.) having never studied them.

What I can say is that I do not think that wrist locks isolated from other training are going to provide the solution you want for these bullied kids. Even for me now it happens from time to time that I fail to get a joint lock because I'm not quite in the right place or my partner is just so stiff that I can't get the lock on. With good movement and timing I can still throw them easily by taking their balance. You can have the best wrist lock in the world, but if you can't get to the right place to apply it, it doesn't mean a hill of beans.

Further, I think you should be very careful about what you show people, given your level of experience teaching this stuff. Are you covered by liability insurance? What might happen if a kid either applies a lock way too forcefully and injures somebody or, more likely, gets beat up after trying a lock that fails?

If you look around, you might well be able to find an aikido dojo that would teach a class for these kids, or an instructor would could come to the school. That would provide the kids with regular, ongoing training, which would give them much better skills.

Food for thought.....
Garth

Phil Van Treese
04-14-2009, 02:12 PM
There are a few instructors that can apply and teach wrist locks (Nikkyos and Sankyos) correctly. When I show Sankyos and nikkyos in class, I make sure I tell the students that when uke taps, it's over immediately. If I see uke tapping and nage NOT stopping, nage sits out the rest of the class, period. After class I will talk with the nage and there will be no misunderstanding!! Nikkyos and sankyos you do not mess with. Fortunately, I have never had the above situation happen in my class.

Michael Hackett
04-14-2009, 03:05 PM
Sure some karate sensei can teach "Aikido Energy Flow" and some can't. If you mean "ki" as "Aikido Energy Flow", it won't be a foreign concept to many karate instructors, but most will have little experience in what you keep referring to as "aikido dancing". Much like a science teacher isn't qualified to teach english, you'll find similar limitations in the martial arts world.

At this stage, probably the best course of action for you is to take Kevin Leavitt up on his incredibly kind offer to meet with you. On a one-to-one basis, he can get a better understanding of what you are trying to accomplish and perhaps give you some very wise advice as to how to proceed to reach your goal.

Spinmaster
04-14-2009, 05:33 PM
Several good points have already been brought up, pointing out problems with this project. Here's my 2 cents:

1. You say that you want to teach them wristlocks so that they don't have to resort to striking - aren't you forgetting that atemi is an important part of aikido? You may have heard the saying "strike with every technique". The strike is a vital part of the technique, necessary to unbalance the opponent enough that the lock/throw/whatever may be applied. Do you really think the bully/whoever is just going to stand there and let you put him in a wristlock? I think it's more likely that he'd be hitting you. ;)

2. What is going to be more of a problem, getting a black eye from getting punched, or a broken wrist?

3. The way you call it a "dance" makes me very cautious. Real fighting is NOT dancing, and attempting to "dance" your way to victory could lead to getting yourself hurt.

Thomas Donelson
04-15-2009, 12:41 AM
There are a few instructors that can apply and teach wrist locks (Nikkyos and Sankyos) correctly. When I show Sankyos and nikkyos in class, I make sure I tell the students that when uke taps, it's over immediately. If I see uke tapping and nage NOT stopping, nage sits out the rest of the class, period. After class I will talk with the nage and there will be no misunderstanding!! Nikkyos and sankyos you do not mess with. Fortunately, I have never had the above situation happen in my class.

This is an important difference with some Karate training. The two taps and a clean break are not taught in some Karate training. So it would be wise to introduce this Aikido concept, of two taps and break, to a Karate Instructor, as part of the preparation of students for wrist lock training.

..

Thomas Donelson
04-15-2009, 01:21 AM
Thomas Donelson is quoted: "The part of the philosphy of Aikido that is intended to foster respect and dispute resolution, can be illustrated with an Aikido wrist lock dance."

I'm actually not sure what you mean, because I've never heard of a 'wrist lock dance' so I'm not positive what you're trying to say or what image you have in your mind.

Again, I'm not sure from your choice of words what you mean.

.

By wrist-lock dance, I mean the positioning of footwork by the person trained in writst-locks, as a potential victim, to be in a confrontation with another individual, a potential attacker.

The wrist-lock trained victim would be positioning himself so that if the attacker did attempt to strike the victim, that the victim would be envisoning a sequence of stepping aside, blocking the fist and arm of the attacker, and then forming a wrist lock, on the attacker, so that further steps can be made to position the victim such that the attacker would have difficulty in striking the victim, with his free hand.

In some Aikido training, it is taught that if an attacker punches in, to grasp the arm, and create moves to get the attacker off balance, and place the attacker on the mat.

The wrist lock dance would be a substitute for placing the attacker on the mat. The wrist-lock would be maintained by the victim changing footwork positioning, and only applying enough force at the wrist, to prevent the attacker from breaking loose, or from striking with the other hand.

When it seems the attacker has been defused, the victim may release the attacker from the wrist-lock, and prepare for envisioning another step aside, block and wrist-lock, if the attacker attempts to hit the victim again.

The attacker's energy is discharged as questions are asked by the victim, "Why are you threatening me?" or "Why are you trying to make me afraid you are going to hit me?" "What are you angry about?" or "Why are you trying to push me?" or "I amd becoming frightened that you are going to hit me!." or "you are making me frightened you arfe going to hit me." If the attacker does punch in, and the victim is able to step aside, and deflect the blow away from his face and body, this usually has the effect of defusing the attacker's intensity, having expended the energy to attempt to hit the victim. Further energy is depleted from the attacker, if a wrist lock can be applied, and the attacker spends further energy trying to get into a position to punch in again.

So the wrist-lock dance is the victim attempting to postion himself to avoid being punched, and to maintain the wrist lock, with minimal pressure. The victim is responding to the attacker's further attempting to position himself, to punch in again.

The victim may decide that maintaining the wrist lock is causing too much pressure on the attacker's wrist, and release the wrist-lock, and begin positioning himself for another punch in, by the attacker.

..

Thomas Donelson
04-15-2009, 01:30 AM
I am another voice against wrist locks on kids - in kids aikido classes it is what we DON'T do because of the growth plates and other issues. Teaching kids to move off the line, evade, block a punch, yell NO, fall without getting hurt, as well as the discipline of lining up, bowing, etc is all much more valuable then any locks or techniques.

Because Wrist Locks are a tool that can be used with too much force and cause injury, means that teaching wrist-locks carries with it the idea that it is good to take extra care in teaching kids the dangers of too sudden, or too forceful wrist locks.

It is possible that I will conclude that it is not possible to responsibly teach sub-teens wrist locks. For now, I am looking for ways to increase responsibility in teaching, and looking for specific problems with teaching wrist-locks.

..

Michael Douglas
04-15-2009, 10:26 AM
...In some Aikido training, it is taught that if an attacker punches in, to grasp the arm, and create moves to get the attacker off balance, and place the attacker on the mat.

The wrist lock dance would be a substitute for placing the attacker on the mat. The wrist-lock would be maintained by the victim changing footwork positioning, and only applying enough force at the wrist, to prevent the attacker from breaking loose, or from striking with the other hand.

When it seems the attacker has been defused, the victim may release the attacker from the wrist-lock, and prepare for envisioning another step aside, block and wrist-lock, if the attacker attempts to hit the victim again.
.
Thomas you seem kinda ... gullible.
What you have described is a situation which will almost never exist.

You yourself should never teach wristlocks (in my opinion) since you display less than zero knowledge of their realistic application. (Adult or child)
If I sound harsh that's because to mollycoddle you could (is likely to) get your 'students' into broken nose territory. I'd rather that didn't happen.

Garth Jones
04-15-2009, 11:28 AM
As I said earlier, trying to grab the arm or wrist of a punch is a normal beginner mistake. If it is taught that way somewhere, it is poorly done.

There are many kinds of punches and they require different solutions. A wildly thrown roundhouse might result in a wrist lock, IF the attacker over commits and IF the defender moves right. Trying to do a wrist lock on a boxing jab will fail without a ton of practice. I have seen Saotome Sensei blend elegantly with blindingly fast punches thrown by a 6th dan katate practioner - he didn't bother with joint locks, though, he just drilled his uke into the mat. The punching arm and wrist, especially in a real fight, is likely to be very stiff - turning it for a wrist lock may not be possible. Of course, there are many other techniques that will work just fine. Focusing on wrist locks as a total self defense solution misses 99% of the power of aikido (and the martial arts in general).

Beginners are going to be more successful using joint locks as counters to grab attacks. Even then, steady practice is required.

To me, self defense begins with the right attitude and awareness of my surroundings. I think it's more important to diffuse the situation and give ground rather than 'stand and fight.' Of course, it's possible to be backed into a corner or have to help somebody else - that may force a physical confrontation faster. Even then, that's the last choice - what starts as a fist fight may end up with a knife or firearm involved, and then everybody has a very bad day.

And it's one thing to have a conversation with your over excited drunk friend once you've pinned him on the floor and another with some punk who is trying to beat you up. In the second case, he's staying on the floor until I call 911 and the cops come and arrest him for assaulting me.

Anyway, I will again suggest that you look for good aikido instructors and do some reading on the topic of unarmed self defense.

Janet Rosen
04-15-2009, 11:33 AM
Frankly the idea of "dealing with" a bully by putting on halfassed wrist locks and releasing them and putting them on again as needed strikes me as one of the at best misguided and at worst asinine things I can think of.

One should either de-escalate verbally, get the heck away, or take the person down. What is posited here is "neither fish nor fowl" and simply leaves one engaged in a lose-lose situation that I believe will escalate things.

Thomas Donelson
04-15-2009, 07:13 PM
Frankly the idea of "dealing with" a bully by putting on halfassed wrist locks and releasing them and putting them on again as needed strikes me as one of the at best misguided and at worst asinine things I can think of.

One should either de-escalate verbally, get the heck away, or take the person down. What is posited here is "neither fish nor fowl" and simply leaves one engaged in a lose-lose situation that I believe will escalate things.

I have found it helpful to have a moderate path to utilize, in the Wrist-Lock dance. Situations like Bar fights, disagreements with co-workers, people with whom I expect to have future relations.

I prefer to stand my ground when people are drunk, agitated or otherwise threatening me. Visualizing using the wrist locks I know, gives me confidence to continue to face people who are speaking to me in a threatening manner. I have confidence that I can protect myself, protect them, and preserve their dignity, by allowing them to remain standing, while they try to hit me.

I am looking forward to learning more wrist locks, and learning the techniques to overcome deliberate resistance.

I visualize situations for sub-teens, where there is a future realtionship with threatening indivdiduals.

It is considered the crime of assault to put someone in fear of being hit or harmed in some way. But calling the police, or filing charges in court, seems a little over the top. I recall the New Testament mentions working out problems between each other, rather than involving the courts. Respect is a first element of a basis for negotiation.

..

Janet Rosen
04-15-2009, 07:44 PM
If I can't succesfully de-escalate or disengage - which over the decades, in most IRL situations, I've been succesful at - then that means the person is an active threat, and regardless of my "ongoing relationship" with the person I'm not going to stand there and dance. YMMV.

eyrie
04-15-2009, 08:01 PM
Thomas,

There are some very good resources out there, on how to deal with schoolyard/playground bullying. I would strongly suggest and encourage you to do some research in this area.

Bullying is simply a form of violence - verbal, psychological as well as physical. In that respect, it is no different to the material covered in most generalized self-defence strategies; i.e the general approach is the same - be aware and avoid, verbally de-escalate or diffuse the situation, walk/run away, call for help, tell an adult/teacher etc. Physical self-defence responses should only be the action of last resort, and one should always be aware of the legal/regulatory consequences of such a course of action.

If you have to engage, in order to disengage from the situation, gross, generalized movements are favourable to wrist locks. Wrist locks are generally low percentage techniques and difficult to apply without a modicum of training. OTOH, gross, generalized movements do not necessarily imply punch/kick either.

Aikido encompasses far more generally applicable principles that can help empower an individual to "rise above it". Limiting it to mere technical responses narrows one's options and is, IMO, shortsighted.

Michael Hackett
04-15-2009, 11:29 PM
Thomas,

You've gotten some really good advice from some pretty experienced people. Feel free to ignore it. Enjoy, you might be on to something. Dance, Forrest, Dance!

AnniN
04-16-2009, 03:45 AM
Hmmm... IMHO I think the matter is very simple, if you aren't a qualified instructor you shouldn't teach kids stuff that could cause injury.

mathewjgano
04-16-2009, 06:50 PM
I prefer to stand my ground when people are drunk, agitated or otherwise threatening me.
Would you be willing to elaborating on this?

Visualizing using the wrist locks I know, gives me confidence to continue to face people who are speaking to me in a threatening manner.
Confidence is good. I know when I'm confident I don't hesitate as much and I generally look less like an easy target...so it both frees me to act decisively as well as possibly disuading the would-be attacker.

I visualize situations for sub-teens, where there is a future realtionship with threatening indivdiduals.
Something I can appreciate since the first words one of my best friends uttered to me was, "touch my shoes and I'll kick your ass," (his shoes were on my seat).

Respect is a first element of a basis for negotiation.
Well amen to that! In my opinion, this is an under-appreciated fact of social dynamics.

L. Camejo
04-16-2009, 07:55 PM
Thomas,

Since you are thinking about teaching the use of wrist locks in situations where there will be obvious resistance to children whose growth plates can be severely damaged by overly-applied wrist locks, I have to ask:

Have you ever applied a wrist lock successfully against a seriously resisting opponent? In a class or in real life? Were you able to control it so that the attacker stayed standing without injury while still being able to fight back or yank his hand away?

Do you have any understanding of how much skill and control it takes to apply wrist locks under resistance and not shatter the wrist and other joints? If you do, please give an example of how this is done.

How realistic is it that pre-teens who are at a stage where they are still learning basic coordination skills, will be able to execute successful wrist locks without injuring their attacker or taking him/her to the ground?

I'm sorry, but my impression from your posts so far indicate that what you do not know may make you a very dangerous person to your potential students.

Please tell me if I am wrong.

Please think deeply about what you plan to do.

LC

wideawakedreamer
04-17-2009, 08:27 AM
I have confidence that I can protect myself, protect them, and preserve their dignity, by allowing them to remain standing, while they try to hit me.

.. With respect, you say you have confidence, but what about actual experience? Have you been in an actual situation where things got physical and you had the guy standing in a wrist lock as he tried to hit you? I'm not saying that you haven't, just wondering because you didn't mention it.

wideawakedreamer
04-17-2009, 08:39 AM
Thomas Donelson is quoted:

By wrist-lock dance, I mean the positioning of footwork by the person trained in writst-locks, as a potential victim, to be in a confrontation with another individual, a potential attacker.

The wrist-lock trained victim would be positioning himself so that if the attacker did attempt to strike the victim, that the victim would be envisoning a sequence of stepping aside, blocking the fist and arm of the attacker, and then forming a wrist lock, on the attacker, so that further steps can be made to position the victim such that the attacker would have difficulty in striking the victim, with his free hand. Okay this one I can visualize - but...

In some Aikido training, it is taught that if an attacker punches in, to grasp the arm, and create moves to get the attacker off balance, and place the attacker on the mat. ...THIS? Are you talking about catching a punch? :eek:

morph4me
04-17-2009, 08:40 AM
The question I have, since you seem determined to take this path, is this. Are you prepared to face the legal ramifications if your students or their victims get hurt doing something that you taught them despite being unqualified?

wideawakedreamer
04-17-2009, 08:47 AM
And one more thing: you talk about "envisioning a sequence..." when the bully attempts to strike. That to me sounds too slow. While the kid is busy thinking, "Oh he's going to punch me. Okay, envision the sequence. Step 1: step aside. Step 2: Block. Step - OW!!!" the bully hits him. Or am I taking your words too literally?

Thomas Donelson
04-25-2009, 11:35 AM
Teaching about Pain/Injury of a wrist lock:

Sit at a table, on a chair. Put your right elbow on the table. Put your right forearm straight up, toward the sky.

turn teh palm of your right hand, facing left. Now bend your hand to make the head of a duck. Move your thumb, up and down, and say "Quack Quack." Imagine that your hand is being shown as a shadow on a screen, by a bright light.

Your wrist is bent 90 degrees, and this is sometimes called a Gooseneck, by Roy Dean.

With your right hand in a Gooseneck, and your elbow firmly on the table, move your left arm up, to place your left palm on top of the knuckles of your right hand. Press down gently with your left hand, and notice that you can feel pain, and that it hurts. This is to show you that you can injure your partner when you use a wrist lock.


TRAINING THE RELEASE, BREAK AND STEP APART

The object of any wrist-lock prectice exercise is is to create some minimal pain in your partner, but not severe pain, or injury. It is important that you look at your partner for signs of pain, or excessive pressure.

Once you feel that pain and position indicate yor paertner is in need of release, you can shout, "Break, Release, Break" and you and your partner should go apart, maybe even b ow to each other, to show respect for the BREAK.

Your partner should be trained to communicate that pain and position have been acheived, and that release of the wrtist hold is being requested. Some in Aikdo have been trained to slap the mat once. to signal a request for a release and break, Roy Dean DVD's. Some in Aikido suggest slapping the mat twice, is a more certain process to institute a release and break.

There is a natural tendency to retaliate if someone has caused you pain. It is important for both partners to resist a cycle of retaliation, and to understand that it is the partner's responsiblity to slap the mat, or the thigh of his leg, to make a Slapping Sound. The person in the Wrist Lock can also yell, "Hurts, Break! Hurts, Break!"

The first practice sessions with wrist-locks should be about breaking, and slapping to signal pain. Variations in applying the Gooseneck wrist lock can take second place, until the Break routine is established as a pattern.

..

Amir Krause
04-26-2009, 04:20 AM
Dear Thomas

The way you wrote your messages, make me think you are so miss-guided I can not explain.

Have you ever tried any wrist lock on anyone?
You are posting in an Aikido Forum, may I suggest you to find some Aikido dojo and simply try a couple of lessons.

Without realistic experience, all you have is simplified ideas which will NEVER work.

Oh, and I hate to break the illusion, but reading your post on how to perform the wrist-lock "you know", you do NOT yet have any slight idea on how to really perform any wrist lock on any other person.

The number of miss-guided, WRONG ideas I (and many others, much more polite and tolerant then me) read in your posts is staggering. Your messages indicate you have no knowledge in this subject. Your teaching anything of this type to children is on the verge of a crime.

Martial Arts are not a couple of techniques, this is true for Aikido, Karate, Judo, Jujutsu and Kung-Gu. Each M.A. contains lots of synergism elements, the techniques are just the most spectacular and easiest to see aspect, not the most important one.

To develop a way for children to face Bullies sounds very nice. But life is far from simple. Serious M.A. practitioners, as many here, would mock any person who tries to invent his own M.A. for adults, unless he had lots of years of practice preferably in more then a single M.A. It is my belief, that the qualifications of a person inventing a solution for children should only be higher!

Reading your posts, I am not sure if you are a teenager, sure he has a solution for his problems, and refusing to listen\read the opinions of his elder. Or a real teacher, who is sure he found the light and all those people simply have no idea. In either case, you should start by stepping on some dojo mat and feeling the true problems and limitations of locks.

I apologize if this post seems blunt and aggressive to you. But, someone here should have put you in place, and open your eyes to reality before you cause any damage. I guess it had to be an Israeli who has the "Huzpa" to write things this bluntly.

Amir

Nicholas Eschenbruch
04-26-2009, 04:46 AM
Thanks Amir, this really needed to be said... your huzpa is entirely appropriate!

wideawakedreamer
04-26-2009, 06:48 AM
I get the feeling that Thomas doesn't read our posts. Or is already convinced he's right.

Thomas Donelson
04-26-2009, 09:22 AM
Dear Thomas

The way you wrote your messages, make me think you are so miss-guided I can not explain.

Have you ever tried any wrist lock on anyone?
You are posting in an Aikido Forum, may I suggest you to find some Aikido dojo and simply try a couple of lessons.

Without realistic experience, all you have is simplified ideas which will NEVER work.

Oh, and I hate to break the illusion, but reading your post on how to perform the wrist-lock "you know", you do NOT yet have any slight idea on how to really perform any wrist lock on any other person.

The number of miss-guided, WRONG ideas I (and many others, much more polite and tolerant then me) read in your posts is staggering. Your messages indicate you have no knowledge in this subject. Your teaching anything of this type to children is on the verge of a crime.

Martial Arts are not a couple of techniques, this is true for Aikido, Karate, Judo, Jujutsu and Kung-Gu. Each M.A. contains lots of synergism elements, the techniques are just the most spectacular and easiest to see aspect, not the most important one.

To develop a way for children to face Bullies sounds very nice. But life is far from simple. Serious M.A. practitioners, as many here, would mock any person who tries to invent his own M.A. for adults, unless he had lots of years of practice preferably in more then a single M.A. It is my belief, that the qualifications of a person inventing a solution for children should only be higher!

Reading your posts, I am not sure if you are a teenager, sure he has a solution for his problems, and refusing to listen\read the opinions of his elder. Or a real teacher, who is sure he found the light and all those people simply have no idea. In either case, you should start by stepping on some dojo mat and feeling the true problems and limitations of locks.

I apologize if this post seems blunt and aggressive to you. But, someone here should have put you in place, and open your eyes to reality before you cause any damage. I guess it had to be an Israeli who has the "Huzpa" to write things this bluntly.

Amir

Thanks for expressing your non-specific negative feelings. Others have posted non-specific objections, similar to yours. If you have any specific suggestion, I would be interested.

I have sufficient training to have applied wrist-locks for dance in conflict situations, in my life. I have used Aikido for the release of anger from others, and for creating a dilogue on conflicts. If you and others need more practice to be able to confidently utilize wrist-locks for dance, then I would encourage those who lack confidence in their wrist-lock and foot-work skills, to gain further expertise; either at a dojo, or videos, or friends, or volunteering, whatever.

I am not suggesting that all other forms of marial arts be discontinued. I am suggesting that those interested in young people might look at how wrist locks can be taught to youngsters, at earlier ages, as part of channeling Anger, and creating Dialogue.

My interest in Wrist-Lock Dance is also Spiritual, in that harmony with other individuals is not taught by many branches of Aikdo or other Martial Arts. So my stubborness is based on a belief in the conflict resolution aspects of Aikdo, and the Anger Discharge aspects of Aikdo moves.

There is very little discussion in any of the posts of the spiritual basis of my ideas.

Unintential injury of children is certainly a concern. How does that concern compare with the Reality of the World? Some 6000 of Earth's children die each day from contaminated drinking water. No Headlines, just facts.

http://www.worldvision.org/sponsor.nsf/child/world_water_day?Open&campaign=1136050&cmp=KNC-1136050&OVRAW=International%20Water%20Disease%20Rates&OVKEY=water%20disease&OVMTC=advanced

Search: Deaths Clean Water

The teaching of the branch of Aikido which teaches respect for the Anger of others, rather than the punishment of and countering Anger, is my spiritual belief in answers to Peace.

Developed contries are too busy fighting Wars, and punishing wrong-doers, so there is no time, or effort, left over to take care of safe drinking water for Earth's children.


..

mathewjgano
04-26-2009, 11:03 AM
I have sufficient training to have applied wrist-locks for dance in conflict situations, in my life.
Would you be willing to elaborate on this? Different folks have different ideas as to what "sufficient" entails. What exactly are your experiences?
Also, I'm not sure how dance applies to learning joint manipulation. I can see how studying tempo, distance and frame can reinforce learning similar things in Aikido, but I can also see how it could potentially dilute or distract from it.

I have used Aikido for the release of anger from others...
How so?

If you and others need more practice to be able to confidently utilize wrist-locks for dance, then I would encourage those who lack confidence in their wrist-lock and foot-work skills, to gain further expertise; either at a dojo, or videos, or friends, or volunteering, whatever.
I've done some dance and I've done some Aikido and I'm not sure how wrist locks are for dance. I also don't think these folks are lacking in confidence of themselves, but rather in what they've "seen" of you. It sounds like you're a dancer thinking about teaching budo and while there is overlap between the two, it's pretty slight leaving lots of room for potential harm.

I am suggesting that those interested in young people might look at how wrist locks can be taught to youngsters, at earlier ages, as part of channeling Anger, and creating Dialogue.
A good social environment can do wonders in these things. Incorporating Aikido lessons into a dance group can be wonderful too, i imagine. I'm a little worried that you seem so interested in wrist locks though. My opinion is that controlling an attacker's center is harder through the wrist than, say the shoulder, because there are more articulations down the line (elbow, shoulder, etc.) Imagine pushing a broom in a very specific direction, but with a broom that has 2 or 3 hinges along the shaft. It can be done, but it's easier for a neophyte to avoid those hinges and hold the broom closer to the base...if that makes any sense.

My interest in Wrist-Lock Dance is also Spiritual, in that harmony with other individuals is not taught by many branches of Aikdo or other Martial Arts. So my stubborness is based on a belief in the conflict resolution aspects of Aikdo, and the Anger Discharge aspects of Aikdo moves.
I think your intentions sound great and really, what you're describing is right up my alley, but serious teaching requires serious study of your own and I think that takes years.
Take care,
Matt

Thomas Donelson
04-26-2009, 11:35 AM
The purpose of the wrist-lock, like a Gooseneck, say with two thumbs on the back of the hand of the opponent, and fingers around the palm of the hand of the attacker, is so that I can control my position in relation to the potential paths for the attacker's feet and free arm. Further to give the attacker some area of free movement, so he an express his anger in some movement, yet while I protect myself.

The Dance is really footwork positioning, and discharge of Anger. Problem solving phrases can also be used during the time of the dance. The Attacker is sometimes willing to lessen the intensity of his attack, when both my hands are holding one of his hands, and my feet are positioned away, so the I am not in a polsition to kick or attack the attacker. By taking purely defensive actions, I show respect for the Anger of the attacker, and give him a chance to discuss problem resolution.

There is a sense of loyalty to to the teachings and focus of varous schools of Aikido and Martial Arts. Each branch of Martial Arts has reasons for its focus on some martial art forms, other than wrist-lock dance steps. My suggestion is that everyone should learn the wrist-lock dance, and processes for discharge of Anger. Suggesting universal Wrist-Lock dance training could be expected to meet some moderate to stiff resistance.


..

mathewjgano
04-26-2009, 12:20 PM
The purpose of the wrist-lock, like a Gooseneck, say with two thumbs on the back of the hand of the opponent, and fingers around the palm of the hand of the attacker, is so that I can control my position in relation to the potential paths for the attacker's feet and free arm. Further to give the attacker some area of free movement, so he an express his anger in some movement, yet while I protect myself.

The Dance is really footwork positioning, and discharge of Anger. Problem solving phrases can also be used during the time of the dance. The Attacker is sometimes willing to lessen the intensity of his attack, when both my hands are holding one of his hands, and my feet are positioned away, so the I am not in a polsition to kick or attack the attacker. By taking purely defensive actions, I show respect for the Anger of the attacker, and give him a chance to discuss problem resolution.

There is a sense of loyalty to to the teachings and focus of varous schools of Aikido and Martial Arts. Each branch of Martial Arts has reasons for its focus on some martial art forms, other than wrist-lock dance steps. My suggestion is that everyone should learn the wrist-lock dance, and processes for discharge of Anger. Suggesting universal Wrist-Lock dance training could be expected to meet some moderate to stiff resistance.

..

I'm assuming this is in reply to my post, but it doesn't seem to address many of my specific questions.

Kevin Leavitt
04-26-2009, 03:15 PM
Thomas wrote:

Thanks for expressing your non-specific negative feelings. Others have posted non-specific objections, similar to yours. If you have any specific suggestion, I would be interested.

I specifically offered my time (physically) to meet with you in the WASH DC area since I am assuming when you have "Location: DC" that means WASH DC area.

I did so in a very sincere manner to maybe help you in your quest to understand wrist locks and the implications/impacts of them.

I think what it appears you are looking for is validation that you are right and someone that will provide that validation.

I am not convinced at this time that you are sincerely looking to do what is right for these kids, but simply have a dogmatic theory that you want to gain some knowledge from aikido/jiujistu folks in order to further your agenda.

If this is what you are doing, I think it is dangerous, selfish, and in no way is in the spirit of aikido, peace, harmony or has anything to do with conflict resolution.

I pray that your Conflict resolution experiment does not get someone hurt or killed in the process. I specifically do not think you have the slightest clue about what you are doing, and you have demonstrated to me that you are not qualified to do what you are doing in your writings, IMO.

I specifically retract my offer to assist you are anyone that would work with your agenda or organization.

Janet Rosen
04-26-2009, 06:24 PM
We have had many specific questions and concerns, including the appropriateness of joint locks on youngsters and the fact that there are many other known, demonstrated ways to teach children how to deal with bullies.
I for one will no longer be posting in this thread as it is clear you are either (1) simply seeking validation for what you are already planning to do, ignoring valid concerns that have been raised or (2) trolling.

Amir Krause
04-27-2009, 01:48 AM
Thanks for expressing your non-specific negative feelings. Others have posted non-specific objections, similar to yours. If you have any specific suggestion, I would be interested.


I have a specific suggestion, and I wrote it before too - go and learn some Aikido. Come back in a couple of years after you gained an instructor level. At that point, I and many others here would be happy to assist you in ideas for helping youths to face violence.

I have sufficient training to have applied wrist-locks for dance in conflict situations, in my life.

This is the main problem.Reading your posts - I and all others here have yet to understand your past experiance. Where did you learn, for how long, with whom?


I have used Aikido for the release of anger from others, and for creating a dilogue on conflicts.

To use Aikido, you must learn it first. Otherwise you may do lots of things, but not Aikido. Where did you learn, for how long, with whom?


If you and others need more practice to be able to confidently utilize wrist-locks for dance, then I would encourage those who lack confidence in their wrist-lock and foot-work skills, to gain further expertise; either at a dojo, or videos, or friends, or volunteering, whatever.

Me and others are not the subject of this discussion. We are not proposing a way to teach youngsters to defuse violence utilizing our knowledge, YOU ARE.

Thus, my own ability and the ability of other posters in this thread is not important. I can not see how my abilities after over 15 yrs of practice are relevant to a child who learns a few lessons. However, my and the others experiance in teaching Aikido, includign wrist lock and other techniques is important, and so is our understandings of the limitations of said techniques.


I am not suggesting that all other forms of marial arts be discontinued. I am suggesting that those interested in young people might look at how wrist locks can be taught to youngsters, at earlier ages, as part of channeling Anger, and creating Dialogue.

Wrist locks can be applied in anger, and it is even possible to force some of them on someone as attaqck. Wrist lock and other locks can easily create long term damage! There is a reason for the way M.A. are taught, this way cultivates control.


My interest in Wrist-Lock Dance is also Spiritual, in that harmony with other individuals is not taught by many branches of Aikdo or other Martial Arts. So my stubborness is based on a belief in the conflict resolution aspects of Aikdo, and the Anger Discharge aspects of Aikdo moves.

There is very little discussion in any of the posts of the spiritual basis of my ideas.


At least my own understanding of the M.A. world is, the spirtuality\philosophy comes from the limitation of languages in describing our real experiances. When I talk with friends on Aikido application in real situation, they claim I am philosophical while I only try to describe my own very phisical experiance.

You seemed to have good intentions at the beginning of this thread, but not as it progresses. If you refuse to listen and become agrresive in an internet Forum, where is your spirtuality ?


Unintential injury of children is certainly a concern. How does that concern compare with the Reality of the World? Some 6000 of Earth's children die each day from contaminated drinking water. No Headlines, just facts.

http://www.worldvision.org/sponsor.nsf/child/world_water_day?Open&campaign=1136050&cmp=KNC-1136050&OVRAW=International%20Water%20Disease%20Rates&OVKEY=water%20disease&OVMTC=advanced

Search: Deaths Clean Water

The teaching of the branch of Aikido which teaches respect for the Anger of others, rather than the punishment of and countering Anger, is my spiritual belief in answers to Peace.

Developed contries are too busy fighting Wars, and punishing wrong-doers, so there is no time, or effort, left over to take care of safe drinking water for Earth's children.
..
All true, but are you suggesting to increasethe danger to children near you? How is that a positive influence? Spirtually or otherwise? :confused:

Amir
P.S.
I agree with Janet Rosen. Though I am giving you this chance to change your way and look for some place to learn.

Thomas Donelson
04-27-2009, 03:11 AM
We have had many specific questions and concerns, including the appropriateness of joint locks on youngsters and the fact that there are many other known, demonstrated ways to teach children how to deal with bullies.
I for one will no longer be posting in this thread as it is clear you are either (1) simply seeking validation for what you are already planning to do, ignoring valid concerns that have been raised or (2) trolling.

There are a number of moves within the category of wrist-locks that place stress on the elbow and shoulder joints. The moves I have suggested are not intended to place much more than straight line stress on the elbow and shoulder. The wrist-lock being the main focal point of joint stress.

Controlling the partner by moving to avoid being hit with the free hand, or kicked, has been achieved, in my experience with youngsters, with a straight line force, through the elbow and shoulder.

The victim partner can keep pressure on the wrist, and using his/her hips, as the focal point, for keeping a pulling pressure, in pretty much a straight line, from the attacker's shoulder. The arm of the attacker does not have to be moved too far backward, to keep in a position of turning the attacker to the right, by keeping the attacker's right arm slightly behind the attacker, by moving the hips to keep an outward strain on the arm, from the wrist.

The idea is to keep ahold of the attacker's wrist, and by centrifical force, and by keeping the hips overbalanced against the attacker's resistance, to keep pressure pulling the attackers arm straight from the shoulder, or slightly behind, to keep out of reach. The victm leans back, to keep a straight force on the attacker's arm.

There may be more to protecting the attacking partner's elbow and shoulder, but so far, I have not found problems.

..

Thomas Donelson
04-27-2009, 07:19 AM
Thomas wrote:

I specifically offered my time (physically) to meet with you in the WASH DC area since I am assuming when you have "Location: DC" that means WASH DC area.

I did so in a very sincere manner to maybe help you in your quest to understand wrist locks and the implications/impacts of them.

I think what it appears you are looking for is validation that you are right and someone that will provide that validation.

I am not convinced at this time that you are sincerely looking to do what is right for these kids, but simply have a dogmatic theory that you want to gain some knowledge from aikido/jiujistu folks in order to further your agenda.

If this is what you are doing, I think it is dangerous, selfish, and in no way is in the spirit of aikido, peace, harmony or has anything to do with conflict resolution.

I pray that your Conflict resolution experiment does not get someone hurt or killed in the process. I specifically do not think you have the slightest clue about what you are doing, and you have demonstrated to me that you are not qualified to do what you are doing in your writings, IMO.

I specifically retract my offer to assist you are anyone that would work with your agenda or organization.

Thank you for having extended your offer of assistance. I suspect that my philosophical path may be at variance to your experience and practice.

Thank you for your suggestions of criterea in evaluating Roy Dean's DVD's. I am still in the process of understanding his lessons. Many techniqes shown on the DVD seem to be more advanced, than appropriate for beginners in Aikdo, regardless of age.

Thomas Donelson
04-27-2009, 07:30 AM
I have a specific suggestion, and I wrote it before too - go and learn some Aikido. Come back in a couple of years after you gained an instructor level. At that point, I and many others here would be happy to assist you in ideas for helping youths to face violence.

This is the main problem.Reading your posts - I and all others here have yet to understand your past experiance. Where did you learn, for how long, with whom?

To use Aikido, you must learn it first. Otherwise you may do lots of things, but not Aikido. Where did you learn, for how long, with whom?

Me and others are not the subject of this discussion. We are not proposing a way to teach youngsters to defuse violence utilizing our knowledge, YOU ARE.

Thus, my own ability and the ability of other posters in this thread is not important. I can not see how my abilities after over 15 yrs of practice are relevant to a child who learns a few lessons. However, my and the others experiance in teaching Aikido, includign wrist lock and other techniques is important, and so is our understandings of the limitations of said techniques.

Wrist locks can be applied in anger, and it is even possible to force some of them on someone as attaqck. Wrist lock and other locks can easily create long term damage! There is a reason for the way M.A. are taught, this way cultivates control.

At least my own understanding of the M.A. world is, the spirtuality\philosophy comes from the limitation of languages in describing our real experiances. When I talk with friends on Aikido application in real situation, they claim I am philosophical while I only try to describe my own very phisical experiance.

You seemed to have good intentions at the beginning of this thread, but not as it progresses. If you refuse to listen and become agrresive in an internet Forum, where is your spirtuality ?

All true, but are you suggesting to increasethe danger to children near you? How is that a positive influence? Spirtually or otherwise? :confused:

Amir
P.S.
I agree with Janet Rosen. Though I am giving you this chance to change your way and look for some place to learn.

I am not claiming to have great experience in teaching Aikido wrist locks to children, and how to avoid getting hit or kicked, while maintaining a standing position, with the attacker. I started, and continue this thread, to learn to better teach children the application of wrist-locks for respectful handling of angry agression from others.

A number of people posting to this thread have asked about my training and experience. I have not had enough to brag about, so I don't give my meager details. My ideas are intended for others to evaluate for themselves, and not to be taken on my authority.

A number of people posting to this thread have suggested I get more experience and training, rather than sharing the fruits of their experience or training.

..

Ron Tisdale
04-27-2009, 07:38 AM
Hey, Jun,

I suggest you lock this thread. Waste of Time would be the comment I would add while doing so.

Just a thought,
Ron

raul rodrigo
04-27-2009, 08:44 AM
I think Ron is right.

Garth Jones
04-27-2009, 09:11 AM
Thomas,

I teach kids in the age range you are interested it. The 'fruits of my experience and training' - 20 years of training and about 15 of teaching, tell me that:

1. Teaching joint locks to pre-teens is BAD for their joints.
2. A child of that age, without a year or two of training, has NO hope of successfully executing a joint lock under the stress of a real attack (nor do most adults).
3. Movement, timing, getting out of the way of attacks, etc. are central to martial training, not joint locks. Kids need to start with that.

A number of people, including me, have made these points already. They all have a great deal of experience with aikido and have been trying to share and be helpful.

Finally, if you have as little experience with aikido as you say, then you are not qualified to teach. I think everybody has the potential to be an aikido teacher, but it takes dedication and study. So, again, go find a dojo and train for awhile. If you do, I think you will find that the answers to many of your questions will become clear. No amount of writing on an internet forum (or watching of DVDs) can take the place of real training.

Garth Jones

Basia Halliop
04-27-2009, 01:28 PM
A number of people posting to this thread have suggested I get more experience and training, rather than sharing the fruits of their experience or training.

My personal experience is that to learn physical movements, particularly ones that are challenging and have safety implications, you need to learn them in person, and to learn them accurately and safely, you need to practice many times and have experienced people to show you things and different people to try them with many times in different ways. For my part, and I think for many people here, if I tell you to get more training from someone in person, it's not to be rude, it's because that's the best, most helpful advice I have.

Also, at least from my own experience, the challenge in doing wrist locks safely and effectively is not primarily a matter of _knowing_ they are difficult or _knowing_ they can hurt someone (you will figure that out pretty quickly when it's your turn to be uke) -- e.g. it can actually be quite difficult to judge how much pressure you're putting on a person, even in a cooperative friendly environment, since every person's body is so different. It's a _skill_, and it takes practice and concentration and communication and even then accidents can happen. It's also far easier to put on a meaningless ineffective lock than one that actually works.

And I'm also not convinced wrist locks are the most useful thing for your goal.

mathewjgano
04-27-2009, 05:00 PM
A number of people posting to this thread have suggested I get more experience and training, rather than sharing the fruits of their experience or training.

..

Thomas,
At last I have found a thread I feel like a bona fide authority on.:uch: :D It just dawned on me not 20 or so seconds ago that when it comes to talking on the internet about Aikido instead of putting in the time training, I have a particularly robust experience. My experience is that you don't really progress much off the mat. Budo is hands-on work and done best in a concentrated environment with people better than ourselves.
Also, it's one thing to ask about better ways of teaching techniques for avoiding and dealing with conflict; it's another thing entirely to not address an important point many people with a LOT more experience than me (both on the mat and Aikiweb) have made.
The following comes from the fruits of my experience and I am sincere when I say I like the general idea. I believe whole-heartedly in the idea of cross-referencing information (e.g. by mixing different practices like dance and Aikido). That said, I started teaching kids' classes after about a year of 4-day a week training (about 12+ hours a week) plus practicing off-matt very nearly every chance I could get: When my hands were free i practiced hand taiso; when I had open spaces I practiced weapons kata and ukemi; and when ever certain friends were willing, I'd play around with entering and blending ("sparring"). All in all i estimate I put in an average of about 20-25+ (being conservative in my off-mat estimate here) hours a week on and off the mat for that first year. That is my experience, and when i began teaching I felt just barely ready...I also had someone with over 30 years experience assessing me.
Of course, you could have an exceptional knack for this sort of thing. What do I know about you? Nothing, but I do know you'd be an exception proving the rule, which is why I said I think it takes years.
Gambatte and take care,
Matthew
p.s. As regards the possibility of this being a trolling thread: I say let 'em waste their time...I'll even help. As regards Thomas's refusal to address these important points: as long as the discourse remains about Aikido and remains civil, I'd rather the thread stayed open...not that this is a democracy.:D
Take care all.

eyrie
04-27-2009, 08:49 PM
Thomas,

Irregardless of the fact that you admit to not having much experience in Aikido, much less teaching Aikido - the fact that NOT ONE person here agrees with your approach, should give you sufficient pause to reconsider your philosophical stance.

Those that have responded, I feel, have done so with the best of intentions, and not without insignificant practical and teaching experience to back up their argument against your intended approach. The fact that they are saying otherwise, is a big red warning light that one would do well to heed.

Again I would strongly encourage you, as someone who is interested in pursuing this particular avenue, to look at the relevant research in this area, as well as what other people in this field are doing.

For example, the game-based learning activity program "Rock and Water" has had favourable reviews from schools that have implemented the program. The program has several publicly available case studies that resulted in highly positive outcomes for the school, and more importantly, the children involved.

Once again, the principles of Aikido are universal, and can be universally applied in various aspects of life, particularly in the areas of personal development and social-cultural development, and specifically within the context being discussed.

I think it is commendable that you are doing something to address the bullying issue in that particular age group. But like others, I question the soundness of your approach - which you, as someone who wishes to enter into this arena, should also do regularly, simply from the perspective of continuous improvement and "best practice".

Thomas Donelson
04-27-2009, 09:59 PM
I searched Wrist Lock Injuries

Injuries to the Distal Radius:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16093953?dopt=Abstract

Amazon has products to cure wrist injuries:

http://www.amazon.com/Trainers-Choice-Carpal-Wrist-Medium/dp/B000UODKGW

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080418165256AA6eVjH

Search Web MD for Wrist Distal Radius:

http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/colles-fracture

Search Web MD "Child Distal Radius"

"The most common fracture that I see in children occurs at the distal radius - the main forearm bone near the thumb side of the wrist. When we fall forward, we instinctually put our arms out in front to protect our face. This sudden force often breaks this bone, either completely through or just cracked/dented. In most cases, this requires a cast."

http://blogs.webmd.com/all-ears/2008/01/real-holiday-breaks-bones-that-is.html

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eyrie
04-27-2009, 10:08 PM
Which is all the more reason NOT to teach kids wrist locks... and a compelling case for teaching footwork, maintaining balance, and ukemi FIRST???

Thomas Donelson
04-27-2009, 11:44 PM
Which is all the more reason NOT to teach kids wrist locks... and a compelling case for teaching footwork, maintaining balance, and ukemi FIRST???

Seems like Pediatric Orthopaedics is the topic here.

Did you wish to share your education/credentials/expereince?

Journal articles supporting restricted wrist activities, and limits?



..

eyrie
04-28-2009, 03:14 AM
Whoa-kay then... I sincerely wish you all the best in your endeavour.

Thomas Donelson
04-28-2009, 03:44 AM
Whoa-kay then... I sincerely wish you all the best in your endeavour.

When my children were 7 or 8 years old, I had them in Aikido, and the instructor, who has since deceased, taught my children basic gooseneck wrist locks, and throws or moves ustilizing the elementary wrist locks. My children have grown up without any ill effects on their wrists, elbows or shoulder joints.

This thread illustrates fears that people have for teching children effective Anger Releasing Aikido. Overcoming these exaggerated fears seems to be quite a challenge.

..

Dieter Haffner
04-28-2009, 04:07 AM
This thread illustrates fears that people have for teching children effective Anger Releasing Aikido. Overcoming these exaggerated fears seems to be quite a challenge.
There are people that have become 100 years while smoking their entire life. Does that mean that smoking isn't all that bad after all?

morph4me
04-28-2009, 07:51 AM
When my children were 7 or 8 years old, I had them in Aikido, and the instructor, who has since deceased, taught my children basic gooseneck wrist locks, and throws or moves ustilizing the elementary wrist locks. My children have grown up without any ill effects on their wrists, elbows or shoulder joints.

This thread illustrates fears that people have for teching children effective Anger Releasing Aikido. Overcoming these exaggerated fears seems to be quite a challenge.

..

Well I guess that proves it then, You are obviously correct and all of the people here, with decades of experience teaching what you're suggesting are obviously wrong. You came here to ask for input and suggestions, everyone has suggested that you don't teach wristlocks to kids and that you get more experience. It seems to me that you don't want advice you want validation, and it also seems to me that you won't find it here.

Michael Douglas
04-28-2009, 07:54 AM
When my children were 7 or 8 years old,...
:eek: You had kids when you were 5?
(Calculation based on poster's current age of thirteen, verified by complex syntactical and phraseological calculations.)

Basia Halliop
04-28-2009, 11:11 AM
When my children were 7 or 8 years old, I had them in Aikido, and the instructor, who has since deceased, taught my children basic gooseneck wrist locks, and throws or moves ustilizing the elementary wrist locks. My children have grown up without any ill effects on their wrists, elbows or shoulder joints.

I wonder if you know of senior students or colleagues of your kids' instructor? That could be a good resource. Perhaps you could get some of them interested in your ideas (if I'm understanding right, to get a few aspects of Aikido taught in Karate schools?)

mathewjgano
04-28-2009, 03:48 PM
The teaching of the branch of Aikido which teaches respect for the Anger of others...is my spiritual belief in answers to Peace.

I understand you're here more for information on technical tips, but since you also brought up philosophical and spiritual aspects of Aikidowaza...
I'm left with two basic questions at this point which I think could be viewed as a potential exercise in the kind of thing you've described hoping to teach:
Would you say your idea has been verbally attacked? How have you connected with that attack for the benefit of all parties involved? As you can tell, the critical language hasn't ceased.
I would say there is obvious contention. I don't see you acknowledging/respecting that opposition. If this is the kind of thing you would like to teach, and I understand this is just an opinion here, but I think this is an opportunity for development in this area.

Mark Gibbons
04-28-2009, 05:00 PM
Teaching about Pain/Injury of a wrist lock:

The object of any wrist-lock prectice exercise is is to create some minimal pain in your partner, but not severe pain, or injury. It is important that you look at your partner for signs of pain, or excessive pressure.

Once you feel that pain and position indicate yor paertner is in need of release, you can shout, "Break, Release, Break" and you and your partner should go apart, maybe even b ow to each other, to show respect for the BREAK.

Your partner should be trained to communicate that pain and position have been acheived, and that release of the wrtist hold is being requested. Some in Aikdo have been trained to slap the mat once. to signal a request for a release and break, Roy Dean DVD's. Some in Aikido suggest slapping the mat twice, is a more certain process to institute a release and break.

There is a natural tendency to retaliate if someone has caused you pain. It is important for both partners to resist a cycle of retaliation, and to understand that it is the partner's responsiblity to slap the mat, or the thigh of his leg, to make a Slapping Sound. The person in the Wrist Lock can also yell, "Hurts, Break! Hurts, Break!"

The first practice sessions with wrist-locks should be about breaking, and slapping to signal pain. Variations in applying the Gooseneck wrist lock can take second place, until the Break routine is established as a pattern.

..

If you teach kids that the object of the locks is pain I think that's what they will try to inflict when they use the locks. Personally, I don't think the object of locks is to inflict pain. Done well, in my experience, they don't hurt unless uke fights them or doesn't go to where nage is leading.

Kids sometimes get suspended from school when they cause other kids pain. I know of two aikido students that got in trouble at school and at the dojo for showing off their aikido. Your methods when used for self defence seem to be about pain and inflicting pain on children that don't know about asking someone to let up (kids doing wrist locks on serious adults just does not work so I'm not really considering that as a possibility). I don't know how that will work, but suspect it will backfire and end up in escalation and suspensions. I think the training you seem to be putting together from youtube and seemingly limited personal experience is not something I would want my daughter exposed to. My opinon.

I can't tell what you mean by Anger Releasing Aikido. I don't know of a branch of Aikido that offers such a thing. What branch or style did you mean?

Regards,
Mark

Thomas Donelson
04-28-2009, 06:23 PM
Well I guess that proves it then, You are obviously correct and all of the people here, with decades of experience teaching what you're suggesting are obviously wrong. You came here to ask for input and suggestions, everyone has suggested that you don't teach wristlocks to kids and that you get more experience. It seems to me that you don't want advice you want validation, and it also seems to me that you won't find it here.

I'm more interested in how-to ideas.



2203 views
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Ellis Amdur
04-28-2009, 09:58 PM
When my son was in grade school, the biggest bully there practiced aikido. He put kids in wrist locks. He did that to my son. Who decked him with a right hook. That solved the problems of wrist locks and sub-teens in one school. Dance, however, continued.

On another issue, Mr. Donelson, it has been hard to tell from your posts just what your professional capacity is - are you a school teacher or a self-made martial arts teacher. I will say this - in either event, were you to teach children as you propose - with your absolute lack of credentials to do same - and were one of the children under your tutelage to injure another child in a school-yard scuffle, I, for one, would quite happily testify as an expert witness for the parent whose child who was injured. I would testify that based on your posts here, you are unwilling to listen to expert advice, that you have an idea fixed to the point of obsession that you are right, and that you rigidly argue with experts who do not support your position. This means that you did not approach this board in good faith, and thus do not conform to professional standards in which expert advice is solicited to enhance one's knowledge, in this case, to ensure children's safety. Finally, based on your own self-description, you do not possess the professional expertise or knowledge to teach children what experts consider a dangerous technique. I would cite, for example, that in Japan, children are forbidden to apply joint techniques in judo before high school, because of the danger of damage to bone plates. (And as grounds for comparison, they ARE allowed to apply carotid strangles).
So, Mr. Donelson, carry on. You will make myself or someone else very rich some day. On the other hand, as this would be at the expense of possibly permanently crippling a child, this is not something to look forward to.
Ellis Amdur

George S. Ledyard
04-29-2009, 08:56 AM
I have sufficient training to have applied wrist-locks for dance in conflict situations, in my life. I have used Aikido for the release of anger from others, and for creating a dilogue on conflicts. If you and others need more practice to be able to confidently utilize wrist-locks for dance, then I would encourage those who lack confidence in their wrist-lock and foot-work skills, to gain further expertise; either at a dojo, or videos, or friends, or volunteering, whatever.


Ok, I guess more people need to weigh in... You ARE NOT LITSENING...

Everything these folks have said is true. You do not understand or seem to wish to understand. I have taught Defensive Tactics to Law enforcement and Security personnel as well as teaching Aikido. I developed a restraint program for use with juveniles that does not have joint locks specifically because of the injury potential. I have been paid a lot of money to teach that program to juvenile corrections and school security folks. The reason I got hired was because the techniques they had previously been using injured the juveniles with enough frequency that it was a major issue.

The problem with teaching this stuff to very young people is that they have to practice. If they practice on each other they repeatedly stress the joints, over and over. So, even if a particular repetition isn't traumatic, repeated repetition can loosen things that should not be loosened during that stage of physical development.

In law enforcement it is common place for a subject who struggles when locked to injure himself. If kids start using locks to defend themselves on the playground etc, you will certainly have injuries resulting. As Ellis pointed out, being the guy who has set himself up as the authority and taught the techniques to these kids, you are totally in the loop for whatever law suits result.

Listen to what is being said here. There is several hundred years of Aikido experience talking here. You don't know what you are doing, you don't have the expertise to decide to teach it. You are not qualified to develop a p[rogram like you describe.

Ron Tisdale
04-29-2009, 09:06 AM
Hi George and Ellis, thanks for weighing in on this.

I just hope it actually starts to sink in.

Best,
Ron

Chuck Clark
04-29-2009, 10:54 AM
If this guy was interested in becoming truly capable of being able to accomplish what he has set out to do, he would be looking for a "hands on" teacher instead of setting himself up as a qualified expert.

Serious multi-level problems in the making with this fellow and those he influences. He isn't listening yet...

morph4me
04-29-2009, 04:09 PM
I'm more interested in how-to ideas.

2203 views
..

You probably won't get how-to ideas from people who are telling you don't.

eyrie
04-29-2009, 04:56 PM
"How to" ideas don't work all that well in the written medium anyway... IHTBSAF.

Thomas Donelson
04-29-2009, 05:31 PM
When my son was in grade school, the biggest bully there practiced aikido. He put kids in wrist locks. He did that to my son. Who decked him with a right hook. That solved the problems of wrist locks and sub-teens in one school. Dance, however, continued.

Ellis Amdur

I am suggesting using Aikido to discharge anger, and tire out bullies, to boredom. I don't have a vision of what "continued" means. Did you want to share the rest of the story, or were you just illustrating other means of dealing with bullies? There are other threads dealing with other means of handling bullies.

Certainly many who prctice Aikido are not interested in non-vilence, or discharge of anger, or peacefully tiring out bullies.

..

Thomas Donelson
04-29-2009, 05:40 PM
Ok, I guess more people need to weigh in... You ARE NOT LITSENING...

Everything these folks have said is true. You do not understand or seem to wish to understand. I have taught Defensive Tactics to Law enforcement and Security personnel as well as teaching Aikido. I developed a restraint program for use with juveniles that does not have joint locks specifically because of the injury potential. I have been paid a lot of money to teach that program to juvenile corrections and school security folks. The reason I got hired was because the techniques they had previously been using injured the juveniles with enough frequency that it was a major issue.

The problem with teaching this stuff to very young people is that they have to practice. If they practice on each other they repeatedly stress the joints, over and over. So, even if a particular repetition isn't traumatic, repeated repetition can loosen things that should not be loosened during that stage of physical development.

In law enforcement it is common place for a subject who struggles when locked to injure himself. If kids start using locks to defend themselves on the playground etc, you will certainly have injuries resulting. As Ellis pointed out, being the guy who has set himself up as the authority and taught the techniques to these kids, you are totally in the loop for whatever law suits result.

Listen to what is being said here. There is several hundred years of Aikido experience talking here. You don't know what you are doing, you don't have the expertise to decide to teach it. You are not qualified to develop a p[rogram like you describe.

Did you have a reference for studies showing that straight line stresses from a gooseneck wrist-lock, in swinging with a partner causes injury?

The stresses in restraining a youngster are different from utilizing a wrist grab, allowing the partner room for movement, for discharging anger, and tiring out a bully.

People have posted exaggerated fears, with no studies or analysis of the techniques I am suggsting. I have searched for studies on the possibilities of injury, and find nothing persuasive.

Nothing of substance is being posted, about the risk of injury, but paranoid opinions, so you are correct, that I am unpersuaded. I hear some people expressing imagined fears. I suggest bravery, to achieve peace and harmony.

..

Kevin Leavitt
04-29-2009, 05:56 PM
FYI, As a certified Army Combatives Instructor...it is interesting that we STOPPED teaching joint locks in our Level I course.

In my instructor training classes, we make it a point to teach instructors to NOT teach them and the hazards of teaching them to soldiers that do not possess the proper body skills to train on them safely.

In addition, joint locks are pretty much banned in Judo. Even in BJJ and NO GI Grappling, they are limited and you don't see them until really around Blue or some even purple belt level...which is several years of consistent practice.

So, makes you wonder.

FYI, I taught a whole class on Kote Gaeshi in Germany last night. The whole class was about how to do it without using pain by establishing proper Kuzushi. Or as I like to call the class "kotegaeshi, it ain't about the wrist!".

Food for thought!

Michael Hackett
04-29-2009, 06:02 PM
Thomas,

I make my living today as a criminal justice consultant and do a lot of expert witness work in federal and state courts, often dealing with excessive force cases. What Ellis Amdur Sensei and George Ledyard Sensei have explained at great length to you is very accurate and I would strongly recommend you listen carefully to their counsel.

You are putting yourself at great risk because you haven't the education, training or experience to teach the techniques you have been describing, your intended program, however noble, is largely unworkable physically or legally, and you have been warned in writing by some real and concerned experts. I can assure you that if this goes south on you, that the Plaintiff's attorney will read each and every of these posts and many of us will be writing reports, giving depositions and testifying against you.

Please make an appointment with some real martial arts teachers in your area and discuss your ideas. There may be some safe, realistic and sane way to achieve your goals - this simply isn't the path you want to follow.

Kevin Leavitt
04-29-2009, 06:13 PM
Did you have a reference for studies showing that straight line stresses from a gooseneck wrist-lock, in swinging with a partner causes injury?

The stresses in restraining a youngster are different from utilizing a wrist grab, allowing the partner room for movement, for discharging anger, and tiring out a bully.

People have posted exaggerated fears, with no studies or analysis of the techniques I am suggsting. I have searched for studies on the possibilities of injury, and find nothing persuasive.

Nothing of substance is being posted, about the risk of injury, but paranoid opinions, so you are correct, that I am unpersuaded. I hear some people expressing imagined fears. I suggest bravery, to achieve peace and harmony.

..

I think most of us here have enough experience with wrist locks to say that they can do some damage. I have had mine sprained and had ligments pulled enough to completely understand the damage they can do.

It ain't just the guy doing it that is the problem. The other problem is when Uke resist or "plows" himself into it and hurts his own wrist as well.

I have seen fellow BJJer carred off the mat with blown elbows and torn up knees from arm bars and knee bars. I have also seen guys rip tendons in the arms.

Heck, I can't use my left hand right now and need to get it Xrayed when I get back to the states cause I hyper extended it when I fell on it and bent it backwards a week ago...it ain't good.

You generate a fair amount of torsion and stress on the tendons and joints in wrist locks. It really doesn't take much to tear something up.

The other thing is this:

They are damed hard to do in a fight. How do I know? I have gotten my ass kicked trying to do those "goosenecks".

If you want to teach your kids how to control agression and how to hold on to a bully until they release, run out of steam or anything else...you need to teach them some basic structure.

things like the clinch, the mount, Kesa Gatame, the Guard. These are fairly benign. they allow you to control the situation, they don't hurt anyone...and the bully knows he is in deep trouble once you have acheived control of him. Also, you students won't get in trouble for simply "sitting on" the bully. Oh, another good one..."Knee on Belly".

The bully can simply "push him down" and he can pull guard on the guy and it will look like he is being passive, yet he is controlling the fight!

Anyway, if you can't master these basic skills, you really don't have a snowballs chance in hell of actually using a wrist lock anyway. I know, as I have been there done that and do it pretty much daily these days.

Clincal studies, statistics...I don't need them. I have experience with this stuff.

What statistics do you have that say that teaching them without the proper training or experience is safe?

Why not ask someone how to do brain surgery, then pose the counter argument, "prove to me that doing brain surgery without going to medical school and becoming a brain surgeon is dangerous."

I mean, come on... your logic simply is not there.

eyrie
04-29-2009, 06:14 PM
A key trait of many successful entrepreneurs is persistence - and the tenacity to not take "no" for an answer. I'll give you that. Many a successful enterprise has been built on people's exaggerated fears and paranoia. ;)

BUT... just in case you're onto something, I've taken the liberty of taking out an international trademark on the words "wristlock dance" in class 41. So if you ever attempt to use those words to market what you intend to do... think again. evileyes

Fred Little
04-29-2009, 06:50 PM
Did you have a reference for studies showing that straight line stresses from a gooseneck wrist-lock, in swinging with a partner causes injury?

The stresses in restraining a youngster are different from utilizing a wrist grab, allowing the partner room for movement, for discharging anger, and tiring out a bully.

People have posted exaggerated fears, with no studies or analysis of the techniques I am suggsting. I have searched for studies on the possibilities of injury, and find nothing persuasive.

Nothing of substance is being posted, about the risk of injury, but paranoid opinions, so you are correct, that I am unpersuaded. I hear some people expressing imagined fears. I suggest bravery, to achieve peace and harmony.

..

Dear Mr. Donelson:

I stopped teaching all joint locking techniques to children over a decade ago, after reading a series of studies on repetitive stress injuries to bone growth plates on boys who were pitchers in Little League baseball. Since that time, I have consistently argued against teaching children joint locking techniques for this reason alone -- even without the additional problems of natural error or malice exacerbating the inescapable risks attendant to repeatedly exposing growing bones to stresses of this kind.

Your clear aversion to competent guidance from experienced individuals makes injury in practice a near certainty, as does your misguided faith in the utility of wrist locks as a conflict resolution device.

You are free to ignore my advice as you have everyone else's. I'm just a member of the faculty of the Physical Education Department at the New Jersey Institute of Technology whose normal reticence to appear in court for any reason is quickly giving way to astonishment at your metacognitive failure and the risks it poses to unsuspecting children.

I should also note in passing that in some parts of North Jersey, the word "dance" has connotations that are not friendly, peaceful, non-violent, or aimed at a reasonable form of conflict resolution. In some respects, I think that's oddly appropriate, precisely because you're not friendly, peaceful, non-violent, or looking for a mutually respectful dialogue.

So let's not dance.

FL

wideawakedreamer
04-29-2009, 09:46 PM
http://journals.lww.com/jpo-b/Abstract/2005/09000/_Wristlock_restraint__and_physeal_injuries_of_the.14.aspx

"Wristlock is a commonly used physical restraining manoeuvre to control aggressive and violent persons in penal and medical institutions. We report three cases of similar physeal injuries to the distal radius sustained consequent to a wristlock restraint. There may be a higher morbidity involved when wristlock restraint is used on those with an immature skeleton. We recommend that caution must be exercised whenever a wristlock restraint is used on individuals under 16 years of age."

wideawakedreamer
04-29-2009, 09:50 PM
Nothing of substance is being posted, about the risk of injury, but paranoid opinions, so you are correct, that I am unpersuaded. I hear some people expressing imagined fears. I suggest bravery, to achieve peace and harmony.

..

Really? I guess the experience of people such as Kevin Leavitt, George Ledyard, Michael Hackett, etc. have no substance.

Thomas Donelson
04-29-2009, 11:14 PM
Some posts have suggested not teaching children. I am looking for precautions in teaching wrist-locks to children.

There can be various levels of instruction.

I signed a Waiver when I had my children trained in Aikido, including wrist-locks. So if Instructors are concerned about being sued, I would encourage Aikido instructors of childen to get an informed Waiver signed by the parents.

Wrist Exercises may not have been mentioned yet. The instructor of my children used a dynamic exercise of rolling the fist against the mat, or against the other hand. Purposes of exercise can be to strengthen the muscles and increase range of motion, and strength through the range of motion. By rolling the hand backward and forward, with dynamic tensioning of the wrist, the wrist becomes less susceptible to injury. A step that can be taken early in Aikido training with anyone, including children, can be to strengthen the wrist, and increase strength throught he range of motion.

..

Keith Larman
04-30-2009, 12:24 AM
Wow. Just wow.

You've just been given advice by some of the most respected and highest ranked sensei around both inside and outside of Aikido.

And yet you continue to argue. IMHO you are a fool to ignore such advice given sincerely. And yet you continue...

Wow. Just wow. I'm freaking impressed. To quote the Colbert Report, balls visible from space. Too bad the head ain't listenin'...

Thomas Donelson
04-30-2009, 12:46 AM
Ideas on Wording for a Waiver:

We, the undersigned parents, agree to hold harmless the instructors and the shcool teaching Aikido, and Aikido Wrist Locks to our children. We agreet to hold harmless the School and Instructors for any injuries our children may experience in training with Aikido Wrist Locks. Further, we agree to advise our children of the dangers of applying wrist locks to other children or persons. We Agree to defend any actions brought against the school or instructors for teaching Aikdo Wrist locks, for any improper use by our children of Aikdo Wrist Locks. We agree pay for any legal or other expenses to defend the shool and instructors against any lawsuits for injuries to anyone, by the unauthorized, unlawful or non-self-defense use of Aikido wrist Locks. We further agree to indemnify the Shcool or Instructors for any payments to setlle any lawsuits involving our children's use of wrist-locks, or wrist-lock information, taught in the shool, or by the instructors.


2696 Views

wideawakedreamer
04-30-2009, 02:10 AM
Thomas:

To be fair, I did a quick Google search and was only able to find one link to an article about the risks of applying wristlocks to children.

That being said, I think that you should not dismiss what the people here have been saying. It's not just their opinion, it's their experience. If it was just a lowly kyu ranked student with little experience in actual self defense situations like me posting, well I can understand if you didn't pay much attention to that. But some of the people who are posting here are not just black belts, they are people who are both highly trained and highly experienced in the martial arts and self defense. Their opinions are grounded in actual experience - not just theory, and certainly not just paranoia and fear as you suggest.

I'm not saying believe them 100%, just don't be so quick to dismiss what these people are saying.

Ron Tisdale
04-30-2009, 07:04 AM
Again I ask, what is the purpose of keeping this train wreck open? The OP is not listening, will not listen, and will continue to put others at risk using any and all information he can glean here.

It's good that we have experienced, qualified, considered answers to the questions. And they are in the "record".

Best,
Ron

dps
04-30-2009, 07:17 AM
If you really cared about these kids and want what is best for them, you would not be seeking this sort of advice from martial artists. You would go ask several pediatricians their advice on this subject.

David

jxa127
04-30-2009, 08:16 AM
Wow.

At least now I know how to get Ellis, Fred, and other bright and experienced people to respond to a thread...

Anyway, Thomas posted this proposed waiver:


We, the undersigned parents, agree to hold harmless the instructors and the shcool teaching Aikido, and Aikido Wrist Locks to our children. We agreet to hold harmless the School and Instructors for any injuries our children may experience in training with Aikido Wrist Locks. Further, we agree to advise our children of the dangers of applying wrist locks to other children or persons. We Agree to defend any actions brought against the school or instructors for teaching Aikdo Wrist locks, for any improper use by our children of Aikdo Wrist Locks. We agree pay for any legal or other expenses to defend the shool and instructors against any lawsuits for injuries to anyone, by the unauthorized, unlawful or non-self-defense use of Aikido wrist Locks. We further agree to indemnify the Shcool or Instructors for any payments to setlle any lawsuits involving our children's use of wrist-locks, or wrist-lock information, taught in the shool, or by the instructors.


As a parent, I would never, ever sign such a waiver. EVER! There's absolutely no incentive for a parent to sign it -- no give and take with the school, just give. The school and/or instructors wouldn't even be financially liable for an injury if they cause one!

All that aside, I understand that waivers are important for schools, but how well do they hold up in court?

Regards,

-Drew

More

gdandscompserv
04-30-2009, 08:27 AM
Again I ask, what is the purpose of keeping this train wreck open?
Umm...cuz we can't stop looking?:eek:

morph4me
04-30-2009, 08:53 AM
Some posts have suggested not teaching children. I am looking for precautions in teaching wrist-locks to children.
..

Don't teach them is a precaution.

Ron Tisdale
04-30-2009, 09:39 AM
They aren't guaranteed to hold up. You be a fool not to have one, but in the case here, it wouldn't protect the OP from ignoring the advice of long term experts and practitioners in the field. If he did everything right, he might have a chance. But since he is ignoring all the red flags, it's likely that a court would simply say "extreme negligence", and move on.

Best,
Ron (not a laywer, so...boatload of salt)

jxa127
04-30-2009, 10:32 AM
Thanks, Ron. :)

Regards,

Michael Hackett
04-30-2009, 04:44 PM
Ron,

An interesting concept that you'll see in these types of suits is "deliberate indifference". Basically, it means that you are aware of the danger you are facing and the consequences and choose to ignore it to the detriment or injury of someone else. I'm not a lawyer either, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express one night.

Best,

Michael

Thomas Donelson
04-30-2009, 05:03 PM
Again I ask, what is the purpose of keeping this train wreck open? The OP is not listening, will not listen, and will continue to put others at risk using any and all information he can glean here.

It's good that we have experienced, qualified, considered answers to the questions. And they are in the "record".

Best,
Ron

Your opinion is a little short on content. Medical Degrees? Overall Risk studies? You want to ban square dancing in shcools where partners swing with locked elbows? Risk to the shoulders?

Garth Jones
04-30-2009, 08:10 PM
Journal of Pediatric Orthopaedics B:
September 2005 - Volume 14 - Issue 5 - pp 385-387

"Wristlock is a commonly used physical restraining manoeuvre to control aggressive and violent persons in penal and medical institutions. We report three cases of similar physeal injuries to the distal radius sustained consequent to a wristlock restraint. There may be a higher morbidity involved when wristlock restraint is used on those with an immature skeleton. We recommend that caution must be exercised whenever a wristlock restraint is used on individuals under 16 years of age."

This has been mentioned before, but here it is again. A member of my dojo, who is also a physician, agreed with what everybody has been saying here.

Ignoring the advice of the collection of highly experienced martial artists who have responded to your question is complete foolishness, given your admitted complete lack of experience. You should get off the internet and go to a dojo....

aikilouis
05-01-2009, 05:33 AM
... and start learning, not teaching.

Michael Douglas
05-01-2009, 06:59 AM
I'm still enjoying the thread, in fact I don't ever close it.
Thomas is such a hoot.

Thomas Donelson
05-01-2009, 07:42 AM
Journal of Pediatric Orthopaedics B:
September 2005 - Volume 14 - Issue 5 - pp 385-387

"Wristlock is a commonly used physical restraining manoeuvre to control aggressive and violent persons in penal and medical institutions. We report three cases of similar physeal injuries to the distal radius sustained consequent to a wristlock restraint. There may be a higher morbidity involved when wristlock restraint is used on those with an immature skeleton. We recommend that caution must be exercised whenever a wristlock restraint is used on individuals under 16 years of age."

This has been mentioned before, but here it is again. A member of my dojo, who is also a physician, agreed with what everybody has been saying here.

Ignoring the advice of the collection of highly experienced martial artists who have responded to your question is complete foolishness, given your admitted complete lack of experience. You should get off the internet and go to a dojo....

You are to be commended for taking the trouble to ask a physician about teaching children Aikido.

Unfortunately, the wording of the above post indicates that all the implications of all the fearfullly exaggerated possiblities posted in this thread, are 200% accurate. "If you let your child learn ANY Aikido Wrist Locks or foot work manuevers, with a wrist lock, your child will grow up to be a hunchback cripple!!!" The Genes will be altered by Aikido and the sholders, wrists and elbows, of both arms will be deformed.

No reports of any permanent injury have been reported anywhere on this thread, but the implication of the fears seems beyond permanent, to the spiritual after life.

The Warning about not using wrist-locks quotes in the above post, is taken out of context, and is from an article for which I posted the reference, earlier in the thread. The article is about injuries to three individuals restrained in Brittish Night Clubs by bouncers. Bouncers and Bar Owners are breing cautioned about possible injury to rowdy individuals under 16 years old, by the application of RESTRAINING types of wrist-locks.

So now 4000 people viewing this thread are being told to keep their children away from Aikido schools. Football is OK.

Why don't you ask the doctor friend at your Dojo to do a Medline research on wrist injuries, and the permanent effects, if any, to the elbows and shoulders from wrist injuries. Post those references.

I broke my wrist a couple of times falling off motorcycles, in my teens. My wrists healed OK. Children's wrists are still growing under the direction of DNA. So how does strain on the wrists, from Aikido wrist-locks, Change DNA? Aikido wrist locks change your DNA?

..

gdandscompserv
05-01-2009, 08:52 AM
I'm still enjoying the thread, in fact I don't ever close it.
Thomas is such a hoot.
agreed!:D

Pat Togher
05-01-2009, 09:33 AM
Your opinion is a little short on content. Medical Degrees? Overall Risk studies? ...

Did I miss your qualifications posted in this thread, Tom?
Hello, Pot?
Kettle here ...

Pat

Pat Togher
05-01-2009, 09:34 AM
I particularly liked this gem
"I broke my wrist a couple of times falling off motorcycles, in my teens. My wrists healed OK. "

So, it's not ok to generalize based on a medical study, but fine to generalize based on an accident that happened to one person in his teens. Peer review by Professionals apparently is highly over rated.

This was apparently not relavent at all:
"There may be a higher morbidity involved when wristlock restraint is used on those with an immature skeleton. We recommend that caution must be exercised whenever a wristlock restraint is used on individuals under 16 years of age."

Question: Are not some of the bullies roudy individuals under 16? Is it ok for them to be injured because they are "bullies"?

agreed!:D
Yah, it's like watching a really bad movie - can't turn it off! Anyone got popcorn?

Pat

Ron Tisdale
05-01-2009, 09:40 AM
Your opinion is a little short on content. Medical Degrees? Overall Risk studies? You want to ban square dancing in shcools where partners swing with locked elbows? Risk to the shoulders?

Do you have any medical degrees? I have trained with various medical professionals, all of whom disagree with your opinion.

Do you have any rank in a martial art that would qualify you to teach children? Many of the people posting here not only have extensive degrees in many arts, but they have also at one time or another, taught and or raised children.

I don't (and I don't believe others have) suggest **banning** anything except **you** teaching wristlocks and dancing to young children under the **pretense** of effective self-defense.

Your response to the posts in this thread speak volumes as to who is short of what. ;) I see no progress has yet been made...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
05-01-2009, 09:53 AM
...all the implications of all the fearfullly exaggerated possiblities posted in this thread, are 200% accurate. "If you let your child learn ANY Aikido Wrist Locks or foot work manuevers, with a wrist lock, your child will grow up to be a hunchback cripple!!!" The Genes will be altered by Aikido and the sholders, wrists and elbows, of both arms will be deformed.

:eek:

Now you show yourself to be not only unreasonable and unreasoning, but a liar.

No one in this thread has made any such claims as you state above. Hence, you either cannot read, or are incredibly lacking in the capacity to reason. Or you just enjoy lying. Pick your poison.

So now 4000 people viewing this thread are being told to keep their children away from Aikido schools. Football is OK.

Again, no one has said this. What they have said is that the joint locks in aikido can have serious implications if applied without caution on children whose growth plates are not fully formed. Many of the people here have actually **taught** children aikido, have active training programs at their dojo that **teach** children, and some would even **recommend** aikido classes for children. With the above warning.

Personally, I would recommend wrestling or judo...but that is just me.

Your hyperbole and falsehoods have not gone unnoticed. What amazes me is that people have actually tried to intelligently engage you, and you have rebuffed all of their efforts, ending in completely mis-characterizing everything that they have said.

Best,
Ron (wow, just...wow)

Garth Jones
05-01-2009, 10:45 AM
You are to be commended for taking the trouble to ask a physician about teaching children Aikido.

Well, thanks. As I said in my post, the doctor is a MEMBER of my dojo - she and her daughter are both my students. We had a long talk when they started training. She agreed with me about joint locks and kids - that in her professional opinion they were a BAD idea.

And anyway, you have seemingly forgotten many of the other points people have made - mainly that wrist locks are hard to do under stress without a lot of practice and that any kids you teach are liable to get the crap kicked out of them if that's all they know.

I will echo the 'wow, just wow' sentiment.

JO
05-01-2009, 11:06 AM
I have seen people driven by all types of ideologies and known true believers of many faiths, but this is the first fundamentalist wrist lock dancer I have come across. The narrowness, intensity and uniqueness of his vision has me convinced he's ready to start a successful cult.

raul rodrigo
05-01-2009, 11:17 AM
I know that I am on on record as saying that this thread should be closed, but I have to admit, it does have its entertainment value.

Michael Hackett
05-01-2009, 12:24 PM
Just like watching a train wreck......

Thomas Donelson
05-01-2009, 04:00 PM
Just like watching a train wreck......

There are two types of attackers that might be discussed. One is the angry attacker, who has an emotional upset, who is seeking to vent his anger at the victim. The anger may have been caused by the victim, or by associates of the victim. The point of Aikido Anger Reduction is to allow the Angry Attacker to express his feeling, and acknowledge the reasoning behind his anger. As the attacker expresses the reasoning behind his anger, his anger may, hopefully, diminish.

A relationship between the attacker's energies and the Victim's energies can occur. The Attacker, as he calms down, will realize that the victim now has a reasons to attack back at him. So the trust built up, that the victim is ONLY trying to protect himself, as the chance of creating a bond of trust. The attacker may gain repsect for the victim skillfully avoiding injury, without counter-attack.

Another type of attacker could be motivated for MISCHIEF. The attacker may be interested in boosting his own ego, by displaying intimidaiton over the victim. By the Victim refusing to attack the Attacker, but standing his ground, the attacker may eventually get tired of trying to attack the Victim.

An exercise I practised recently was to practice releasing the attacker, and moving quicly to an open area, where I could stand my ground if the attacker treid to intimidate me, further. One reason to release an attacker is to avoid injuiring the attacker, if the dance has worked into an area that is too small to be safe.

Again, during the dance with the Attacker who is up to Mischief, a rapport can be developed of respect and trust. The victim refusing to counter-attack the attacker gives an atmosphere of respect.

I pracrticed my wrist excercises at a dining room table the other day. I did my duck demonstration, how the wrist can be hurt when bent, and the forward and backward wrist rolling ,dynamic tensioning exercises. The idea was to find times to keep informally in practice for wrist-lock practice.

There are some attackers who are intent on murdering the victim. If the intensity of the acker does not diminish, with a wrist-lock dance, this may be a clue to switch to a more self-protecting mode, with less concern for avoiding injury to the attacker. Hopefully, the murderous attack is not encountered in a high percentage of confrontations.




..

Pat Togher
05-01-2009, 05:19 PM
In our school district my kids attend, the program you are discribing would be considered fighting or assault, and would result in an automatic suspension.

This is the conflict resolution program they use for K-5.
Kelso's Choice (http://www.kelsoschoice.net/aboutkc.html)
Here are the credentials of the authors.
The Authors (http://www.kelsoschoice.net/abouta.html)

If I was a parent of a child you were trying to pitch your program to, I'd expect you to be able to produce similar credentials - A degree (preferably advanced) in Psychology, EC Education, years of experience as an educator, as well as instructor level certification in the techniques you intend to teach.

Pat

Michael Hackett
05-01-2009, 06:14 PM
Mr. Donelson,

Your taxonomy of attackers isn't complete. Some attack from a mindset of anger, others attack from mischief (mischief is perhaps a weak word when describing a bully), and others attack with murderous intent just as you described. There are others who attack because of some gang initiation and/or in relation to a gang initiative, while there are still others who are sociopathic. While the percentage of attackers who initiate an attack because of pathology, gang activity or murderous intent is small, a mischievious attacker or an angry one can quickly become murderous in action. A wise individual who is attacked would assume the worst and protect himself. That does not mean kill or maim his attacker, but rather be willing and able to use the amount of force needed to protect himself. Perhaps a properly applied wrist lock will be sufficient, and it is equally possible that a wrist lock will be provocative enough to escalate the encounter.

I continue to be concerned that your concept is so limited in martial applicability and efficacy. Your potential students need to know what to do if the "wristlock dance" doesn't work. If they don't have that level of knowledge and skill, they will be subject to a sense of false confidence.

Secondly, by your own admission, you are not qualified to teach wristlocks by training, experience or skill. You may be a terrific teacher academically, but you claim little or no knowledge of martial arts training or technique.

Thirdly, you discount the advice given by others that wrist locks are dangerous to youngsters. I am not a physician and have only anecdotal experience in injuries relating to wrist locks and control holds. In thirty years of controlling suspects as a law enforcement officer, I've seen a number of injuries. I am an assistant instructor in a youth class and have seen the lack of control some kids have when doing techniques and it varies from child to child. As a result, we do not teach wrist or joint locks to our youth classes as the possibility of injured joints is just too high.

Lastly, there are some significant liability issues involved. If, even by accident, we are right and joint locks are bad for kids, you, your school administrators and school district may well face litigation. If your training doesn't go far enough to protect the kids, or if you teach something incorrectly, litigation probably will ensue.

You stated earlier that you wanted advice and implied that you aren't interested in criticism. So be it and here it is:

1. Develop a program of instruction and have it peer-reviewed by local martial arts practitioners of instructor level.

2. Develop your own teaching skills to provide the training by attending classes yourself or finding a qualified instructor.

3. Get a buy-in from your school administration to determine if they want to have your program taught and that your program is consistent with their policies regarding self-defense and fighting.

Please remember that this stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum and there are real people involved and real-world consequences. As Bismark said "Any fool can learn from his own mistakes, but a wise man learns from the mistakes of others." Those who have taken the time to reply to you have seen the mistakes of others and have made their own as well. Be wise.

wideawakedreamer
05-01-2009, 08:18 PM
*munches popcorn* You know, I thought I'd just quit reading this thread but dammit I just can't seem to! It's like not being able to stop watching a terribly cheesy soap opera because you just gotta see what happens next. *slurps his Coke* :D

mathewjgano
05-01-2009, 10:36 PM
"If you let your child learn ANY Aikido Wrist Locks or foot work manuevers, with a wrist lock, your child will grow up to be a hunchback cripple!!!" The Genes will be altered by Aikido and the sholders, wrists and elbows, of both arms will be deformed.
That's a bit of a straw man isn't it?

No reports of any permanent injury have been reported anywhere on this thread, but the implication of the fears seems beyond permanent, to the spiritual after life.
You might say the lack of reported long-term injuries on this thread might have something to do with the fact that folks here are so cautious in the first place.

So now 4000 people viewing this thread are being told to keep their children away from Aikido schools. Football is OK.
...by teachers of Aikido to children? Again, this is a bit of a straw man.

I broke my wrist a couple of times falling off motorcycles, in my teens. My wrists healed OK. Children's wrists are still growing under the direction of DNA. So how does strain on the wrists, from Aikido wrist-locks, Change DNA? Aikido wrist locks change your DNA?
..
That's also a bit of an exageration isn't it? Children's wrists/bones are growing at the growth plates. If you damage those, growth can be affected. It's simply an issue...and one which seems riskier when an anonymous person with little to no experience proposes regularly teaching the stuff.
http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/topic.cfm?topic=A00040

Thomas Donelson
05-02-2009, 07:54 AM
*munches popcorn* You know, I thought I'd just quit reading this thread but dammit I just can't seem to! It's like not being able to stop watching a terribly cheesy soap opera because you just gotta see what happens next. *slurps his Coke* :D

This is a wonderful lead in for my next thought train (wreck).

Soaps.

Most of the violence in America is Where? In the streets?

Of course, much is in the FAMILIES. Search Domestic Violence 2008. Search Street Assault 2008.

Verbal Abuse leads to Physical Abuse.

Handling verbal abuse in the home, is similar to handling physical abuse.

The Wrist-Lock Dance is a tool that might sometimes be helpful in the family. The Family relationship will mostly continue after the confrontation.

The Motivation for Abuse is seeking the reward of Consternation. I keep Suzette Elgin's latest book handy. The Boring Baroqe Response is the correct Answer. Arguing, Fighting, Ignoring Silently, Fear, Walking away, all indicate Consternation to the Abuser. Those are Rewards to the Abuser, bvecause he seeks an emotional response, which is similar to the Caring and Love he actuallyh desires. Disinterested, pleasant blithering is the correct response.

Similarly, the non-angry, even affectionate or loving, step aside, arm grab, and dance with a wrist lock can be done without the reward of CONSTERNATION. Even if it is just one spin, and release.

So those who refuse to teach youngsters the art of Wrist-Lock Dance, are depriving individuals and youngsters, a key method of avoiding rewarding the habit of abuse in the family setting. Applying strikes and blows indicates Consternation, and is a reward.

The abuser feels betrayed, which is expressed as Anger. The Abuser is really seeking Love, and feels Angry that he/she does not receive the Love he/she feels is deserved or expected.

The human expression of Anger at Betrayal is a natural response, that needs to be UNLEARNED, because asking for more love by being abusive, is most usually counter-productive. We need to strive to avoid unintentionally rewarding the abuser with Consternation.

When I am yelled at, or otherwise feel unreasonable Anger from someone, my natural response is to yell back. Same with me. I feel betrayed, and I want more love, and here I am, FEELING like yelling back! As a Victim, I need to learn counter-intuitive responses, of avoiding unintentional rewards of consternation for abuse.


..

Thomas Donelson
05-02-2009, 09:16 AM
Getting Even also displays Consternation.

The communication of he Boring Baroque Response, is "I Like you; I care about you; I am ready to listen to you, but I don't understand what your are saying, so I am just saying nonsense back to you, because I don't know what to say, because I don't understand what you want me to do differently next time, or how you want me to make up for the situation we have now."

Some of my most frightened moments have been when a woman has come at me with a utensil from the kitchen, jabbing at me. I was scared not primarily for my own safety, but more about what I was thinking of having to do to defend myself, and how that was going to make be look, and feel. Thanks for the Aikido training I had, I was able to diffuse the situations. The wrist-lock Aikido Dance might have been helpful. I had not yet developed the concept.

Usually now, I will make a hasty exit, when I see some flames of anger in a woman.
..

Michael Hackett
05-02-2009, 09:57 AM
Sorry that you won't feel the love as I quietly retire from the field, knowing all along that they might be giants.

mathewjgano
05-02-2009, 11:11 AM
This is a wonderful lead in for my next thought train (wreck).
I'll ride that train too.:)

Most of the violence in America is Where?...Of course, much is in the FAMILIES. Search Domestic Violence 2008. Search Street Assault 2008.
Good point. Particularly when you consider the many situations which never get reported...which I suspect is quite a few.

Verbal Abuse leads to Physical Abuse.
In the sense that mind and body are interconnected, I bet verbal abuse could even be described as physical abuse and not be too far off, though that depends on the state of mind of the victim.

Those are Rewards to the Abuser, bvecause he seeks an emotional response, which is similar to the Caring and Love he actuallyh desires. Disinterested, pleasant blithering is the correct response.
I've not read that, but it sounds very similar to my own general practice...although blithering doesn't seem like the right word to me (despite it accurately describing a bad habit of mine:) ). I also think disinterested might not be as universally good as you make it sound. I would argue showing interest is a more actively respectful approach which generally works better. I agree that where an emotional response is desired, it's often useful to not feed into that. On the other hand, when the abuser isn't getting what he or she wants, that can cause an escalation too. I had a roomate who constantly tried to provoke me. I have been described as the proverbial wet noodle most of the time and this did nothing to abate his desire for a response. If anything, it made the desire even more deeply seeded.

Applying strikes and blows indicates Consternation, and is a reward.
Twisting someone's wrist, particularly an aggressive person, still seems akin to striking to me...and of course no one should be responding to verbal abuse with physical violence or the role of abuser becomes mutual.

The Abuser is really seeking Love, and feels Angry that he/she does not receive the Love he/she feels is deserved or expected.
While I would agree the basic human condition is to desire love (so that's a underpinning to all behavior), situationally speaking, the desired gratification could be something else entirely. Love (other-regarding concern) has to be present, but it is rarely the sole tumbler that opens the lock to difusing aggression. That's how it appears to me anyway...and I would love it if someone with more knowledge would be willing correct or validate that view.
Take care,
Matt

mathewjgano
05-03-2009, 11:53 AM
...and I would love it if someone with more knowledge would be willing correct or validate that view.
Take care,
Matt

LOL...Or not.:D
Did I help land the deathstroke to this thread? Where's the popcorn at!? I can still smell it 'round here somewhere although it does seem to have faded a bit.:p

Pat Togher
05-03-2009, 12:34 PM
LOL...Or not.:D
Did I help land the deathstroke to this thread?
Hope so!
Nice verbal tenkans, BTW. Very elegant. :D

Lan Powers
05-08-2009, 03:58 PM
I particularly enjoyed the steady building of the idea of wrist lock dance to becoming the ART OF "WRISTLOCK DANCE" just waiting for the little trademark symbol...

Thomas Donelson
09-17-2009, 07:18 PM
I am short of time, and Aikido is either too far or taught too rigidly for my style.

Today I stopped by a Karate studio near my house, and the Karate instructor seemed to have time for me, but he refused to accpt my money because he felt he was not qualified to teach Aikido wrist locks.

I was thinking that over, tonight, and all I really need is for a partner to attempt to defeat my wrist locks. The Aidio wrist locks, from a standng position, are fairly simple. It is just applying them,and positioning my body with footwork to avoid injury and keep control of the opponent.

So all I need the guy to know is the double-slap, for when the hold is causing too much pain, if he wants to practice wrist locks on me.

But I don't care if he ever learns any wrist locks. I just need a practice partner who can control his jabs, strikes and kicks, so I can practice my wrist locks on him, while he tries to show he can hurt me. I just want to be ready to dance, if somebody wants to get cute.

Some of the guys at work sometimes seem to think the Three Stooges are the model of work-place antics.

..

Michael Hackett
09-17-2009, 07:30 PM
The karate guy is worth knowing.

Eva Antonia
09-18-2009, 03:01 AM
No offense...but I think if you stop trying to find shortcuts to mastering aikido it would result in better learning effects.

But on the other hand, if you do some google research you'd certainly find some instructors teaching you miraculous wrist locks even via Internet:p

Best regards,

Eva

Brian Gillaspie
09-18-2009, 05:35 AM
I have practiced techniquest with non-Aikido practitioners...but in my opinion people are better off learning techniques on the mat from a quality Aikido instructor.

I had the chance to train at a couple of Aikido dojos in DC while I was there for work. One was Okinawa Aikikai (dcaikido.com) with Sensei Michael Veltri and the other was Aikido of Arlington (www.aikidoofarlington.com) with Sensei Yvonne Thelwell. I don't know what you are looking for but I would recommend either one of them. I am not from that area so I don't know what else is available to you.

Shadowfax
09-18-2009, 05:54 AM
How far is too far? I travel about an hour to get to my classes 3x a week.

To me Aikido is about far more than wrist and joint locks. And in order to gain the true essence of what Aikidio is really about, one needs to practice it with those who are experienced with, and who love the sport.

For someone to be a good uke takes as much training as to be nage. Its a whole lot more than just a body to practice on who knows when to tap out. Ukemi itself is an art form.

The Karate instructor sounds like a very intelligent person. Perhaps you might consider taking up karate and learning from him since he is more convenient to you. It may just be that Aikido cannot fill the need you currently feel to be able to handle your stooges at work.

Aikido is a lifetime study and not something to be rushed and certainly not something that you should take shortcuts with.

lbb
09-18-2009, 07:15 AM
For someone to be a good uke takes as much training as to be nage. Its a whole lot more than just a body to practice on who knows when to tap out.

Yeah, that. I think it's sketchy to be practicing techniques on people who haven't been properly taught how to respond to them (and if you're trying to learn the techniques yourself, you're most likely not the one who should be teaching them). Seems like too much injury potential. If he's a karate instructor, learn karate from him.

Dazzler
09-18-2009, 07:32 AM
I have practiced techniquest with non-Aikido practitioners...but in my opinion people are better off learning techniques on the mat from a quality Aikido instructor.
.

If aim is to learn techniques then you can learn techniques from anyone that knows them.

If your aim is to learn Aikido it must be from someone that knows it.

Techniques and Aikido are not the same thing ;)

Kevin Leavitt
09-18-2009, 07:55 AM
We've been down this road before with Mr Donelson in this thread.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16013

raul rodrigo
09-18-2009, 09:29 AM
Good point, Kevin. Given the history of wrist locks and Mr. Donelson on Aikiweb, then perhaps one of the advantages that the "karate instructor" approach would have is that Mr. D would not have to be a student, something that seems to be an issue. That said, it is also its main disadvantage; Mr. D would not be a student, would not be learning anything more sophisticated than "that hurts, that one doesn't hurt." I remember my own history with nikkyo, for instance; I learned a good deal from a sempai who was willing to work with me slowly and give me detailed feedback about what I lacked in alignment, kamae, and so on.

ChrisHein
09-18-2009, 10:09 AM
I'm going to offer some advice; that I doubt you will take, but it's on the table.

"Wrist locks" are not very effective. There are only a handful of situations where you will successfully apply, and control a person with a "wrist lock".

Wrist techniques, have lots of application when you are trying to free your hand, or disarm. This is why I believe wrist techniques are common in most Jujutsu systems.

Learning to apply a good choke or headlock is a better use of your time. That is if work place hijinks is your concern.

Basia Halliop
09-18-2009, 11:47 AM
The karate guy sounds like a good guy.

If you're trying to 'teach yourself' wristlocks, it might be useful to know that 'making it hurt' really isn't the main goal most of the time, and isn't really enough for you to be able to say it's 'working'... just causing someone pain is not always all that effective at getting them to do what you want. The more upset or worked up someone is, often the more the adrenaline keeps them from feeling the pain (or sometimes if they feel it fully it makes them mad or confused or motivates them to try to hurt you to try to make you stop)

I once tore a toenail partly off and didn't notice until I saw the blood (it hurt like crazy about five minutes _afterwards_, but not at the moment). The first time I got an injury from a wristlock (tore something, took a couple of months to heal completely), I didn't realize it until after class. I broke a wrist when I was fifteen and didn't realize there was something wrong until I went to open a door. These are very common experiences, it's not just me. I was even talking to someone recently who dislocated a shoulder, which is generally known as a particularly painful injury -- yup, she didn't notice it until someone told her it looked funny, didn't feel all the pain until the next day.

So no, 'if he's tapping' isn't really a good way to know if you've got it right or not. It's more about being able to move them where you want to move them, keep them from attacking you, etc...

Maybe I misunderstood the 'stooges' remark, but unless you're a security guard or something (in which case a proper training course designed for that is what you need), if you're having conflicts at work this is the last thing you need -- you need something more like verbal conflict resolution training, or a more supportive boss, or whatever. Otherwise you'll just make things worse and get charged for assault or fired for brawling on the job.

Chris Covington
09-18-2009, 12:21 PM
Dear Tom,

We practice Daito-ryu aikijujutsu in Baltimore, MD. It might be a bit far but you're welcome to come up and work out with us. Just PM me and let me know if you're interested.

Best regards,

gdandscompserv
09-18-2009, 12:25 PM
Mr Donelson!
:eek:

Michael Hackett
09-18-2009, 01:02 PM
Read the previous thread highlighted by Kevin above.

David Maidment
09-18-2009, 03:40 PM
My favourite people to train with are aikidoka who are also karateka. I've had it suggested to me in the past that it would be beneficial for my Aikido to take up Karate, also. If I didn't feel like I'd just be using the Karate school, I'd definitely do it. The benefits are obvious.