Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

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[Alexkms]

I am considering taking Aikido, but I am unsure as to whether it would actually help me if someone where to attack me. Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

[Don_Modesto]

Dodged a snowball once with IRIMI.

Rolled out a fall when flung from my bike once.

Don't get into fights, though. Doesn't that count?

[dalen7]

I am considering taking Aikido, but I am unsure as to whether it would actually help me if someone where to attack me. Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

It could help you not get in a fight... ;)

And if there is a scuffle, it will give you other options besides popping someone in the face. :)
(Speaking from experience... although the real solution goes back to the above - rooting out what caused the scuffle to begin with, and thus not having a confrontation.)

If you want to go UFC, then that is another topic altogether. :D

Peace

dAlen

[Ketsan]

Yup. These days though it helps me avoid fights.

[Alexkms]

Avoiding confrontations isn't much of an option, unfortunately. I'm just wondering if someone where to try and punch me would Aikido actually work in avoiding the punch and then making a escape. One of my friends used to take Aikido and said that he doesn't think it would help any in a everyday fight but then again he's pretty aggressive where as I just don't want to be beaten up.

[Millerwc]

Well, simply the fact that your friend uses the term "everyday fights" should be clue number one. From my training over the past 5 and a half years, I would say Aikdio is not something to bring into a ring- the principles would certainly help, but the attitude is completely different.

Aikido is a practical self defense, that being said, in my own judgement, it is probably harder to learn that other things that are just as practical from a "street" perspective. Don't expect to learn aikido over night. It does take some dedication.

The bottom line though, is simply that you'll have to try it and see if it is for you. Additionally, every teacher is a little different, so it's more important to find something you enjoy doing.

[Don]

Go drive down I-40 one exit (west) and watch Steve Kauffman at Open Sky Aikikai (Hillsborough). He has a pretty practical style. You will have to get off the exit. and drive until you cross under I-85 (Hillsborough). Its just past the underpass behind the Wendy's. I've taken aikido for 14 years and have seen Kaufman senesi's aikido numerous times. I think that observing several dojo would help answer your questions. Chris Crandall over in Raliegh has a very strong style also but I'm pretty sure Kaufman is closer to you.

[dalen7]

Avoiding confrontations isn't much of an option, unfortunately. I'm just wondering if someone where to try and punch me would Aikido actually work in avoiding the punch and then making a escape. One of my friends used to take Aikido and said that he doesn't think it would help any in a everyday fight but then again he's pretty aggressive where as I just don't want to be beaten up.

Actually, as you get older, and time passes by, you may begin to understand past the words to where they are pointing and that indeed...much of what confrontations you have, could have been avoided.

Why does someone want to punch you? etc.

Again, my story was pretty clear example of what I mean.

Two people, defending their position of what is 'right', and they get in a scuffle after one attacks the other.

I was the one attacked by some joint manipulation tactic and thrown to the floor... in-between there I tried to hold him in a headlock until he calmed down so he would not attack me further. (could have gone wild on his face.)

But being exhausted I was thrown, and he came at me, and I simply kicked him in the face, and then bounced up and popped him in the nose...at which point, reality sunk in, and he calmed down.

Had I known Aikido, I would have been able to not exert as much energy in the headlock when trying to keep him off me...as it was not my intent to beat him and cause blood to gush out his nose.

Sankyo, and other movements come to mind now.

But, as I 'grow', I now realize that there is no need to always try to prove a point, nor can you do so when the other person is turning red from rage because 'they are right'.

So, for me, at least, in looking back, the fight could have stopped by simply allowing the other person to be, as it were - or rather not feel the need to verbally respond to someones egoic story.

Now, this may be different then what your thinking, but interestingly enough, the very root of why these things start, typically go back to the inner state of both people.

Accidents are more likely, as Eckhart Tolle puts it, when both peoples pain bodies are activated.

I know, this doesnt sound exciting, etc. Beating someone without fighting doesnt feed the egos sense of self at all. ;) - at one stage in life, its about who is the tough guy...but all things have a time and a place, and the journey can only be walked by you. :)

Peace

dAlen

p.s.

Aikido is what you make it - you can have heavy atemi, (punching), or make it totally spiritual.
Its a shell that you fill with what you want...the basic structure is there to make of it what you will, like a bunch of legos. I know many dont realize this, as other arts are more direct...its just 'beat' someone.

But Aikido, in a way, more represents life, and the choices you have. :)
As my instructor and senior students would say...'possibilities'. :D

[lbb]

Avoiding confrontations isn't much of an option, unfortunately. I'm just wondering if someone where to try and punch me would Aikido actually work in avoiding the punch and then making a escape. One of my friends used to take Aikido and said that he doesn't think it would help any in a everyday fight but then again he's pretty aggressive where as I just don't want to be beaten up.

I think aikido does a great job in teaching you how to disengage from an attack. One thing that I'm really liking about my aikido training is how it has sharpened my awareness of the (for lack of a better term) moments of opportunity that happen in the course of an attack: here's the point where you have the option to take the opponent's balance, here's the point where you have the opportunity to counterattack, here's when you can disengage, etc. I got this before from studying jodo, which is all about such moments, but aikido was the first style where I really felt that emphasis in empty-hand training. All that is probably babble to you, though. The short answer is yes, but it's not a skill you pick up overnight.

A lot depends, too, on why avoiding confrontations isn't much of an option. If you work in law enforcement or corrections, that's definitely true, but for most other situations, I wonder about the use of the phrase "everyday fight". What's the situation that causes people to take a swing at you on an everyday basis?

[Don_Modesto]

I am considering taking Aikido, but I am unsure as to whether it would actually help me if someone where to attack me. Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

Jeez. The bait is taken. We have another "Does it work?" thread.

There's dozens of these already. Thousands of posts. Millions of words. Why don't you just use the search function?

We need some online Tums to prevent this gas.

[Dennis Hooker]

Oh hell yes, I have learned to smile at my wife when she is on a rant and not listed to a word she says. She can't draw me into a fight. I am good!!! After 42 years she don't even try now but it took me about that long to master that part of Aikido. :-)

[wideawakedreamer]

My wife uses a different tactic on me. Instead of trying to out-shout me, she uses her poor-lost-cute-puppy look. It never fails.:D

[Kevin Leavitt]

Dennis, I haven't mastered that yet. I fall for it everytime!

[Carl Thompson]

I am considering taking Aikido, but I am unsure as to whether it would actually help me if someone where to attack me. Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

Hello Alex,

A lot of the replies you got don't seem to answer your question. Maybe people are too humble to tell you about the times they disembowelled attackers with their own knives? I would definitely agree with posts saying that aikido might help you avoid fights in the first place, but you seem to be asking specifically about scenarios where there is no option.

I'm afraid I am also keeping schtum about my shady antics, for if I told you what I've done… why I'd have to kill you. No seriously, I realise you would probably like details of actual confrontations but it might be better if you just go and try Aikido for yourself. After all, you can't believe everything you read. The proof is in the pummelling! My advice is to find a dojo that seems to offer what you are looking for and take it from there.

Best regards

Carl

[Dennis Hooker]

Dennis, I haven't mastered that yet. I fall for it everytime!

Well Kevin I left out the part about taking out my hearing aid. Don't worry you will get there. :cool:

[Aikilove]

I am considering taking Aikido, but I am unsure as to whether it would actually help me if someone where to attack me. Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

Yep! *Not going into the whole "what is a real fight" thingy!*

/J

[Robert Jackson]

Avoiding confrontations isn't much of an option, unfortunately. I'm just wondering if someone where to try and punch me would Aikido actually work in avoiding the punch and then making a escape. One of my friends used to take Aikido and said that he doesn't think it would help any in a everyday fight but then again he's pretty aggressive where as I just don't want to be beaten up.

Just curious but why is avoiding confrontations not much of an option? Are you a bouncer, cop, something similar, or just someone who wants to fight?

[Guilty Spark]

If you want to avoid being punched then why not just move out of the way?

An even better teacher to avoid getting punched in the noodle than Aikido is common sense.

[mwible]

Avoiding confrontations isn't much of an option, unfortunately. I'm just wondering if someone where to try and punch me would Aikido actually work in avoiding the punch and then making a escape. One of my friends used to take Aikido and said that he doesn't think it would help any in a everyday fight but then again he's pretty aggressive where as I just don't want to be beaten up.

Aikido is very effective. But, at the same time i say this, i do know that there are very many "dojo's" out there that teach sub-par Aikido, or Aikido not geared towards combat.
So, yes Aikido works fantastically for self-defense, but you must find the right place to study.
AND STICK WITH IT.
Aikido is a very long and difficult journey. If you dont have the heart to learn more than "punch, kick, take-down, choke" (as in some other MA i could mention.... cough... MMA.... cough) then dont bother, you must be willing to put the time into Aikido for it to work for you.

-morgan

[xuzen]

Once I used tenkan successfully when I "fought" with a German Shepperd called Lil' Kim over her dirty blanket.

Boon

[Disillusioned]

Don't expect to defend yourself.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Jerry, why do you say that?

[MikeLogan]

Jerry, why do you say that?Most likely because he joined today with the sole intent of saying so. Hailing from japan, no less, so he must have loads of credibility on the subject, too :rolleyes:

[Kevin Leavitt]

Maybe...just asking him to clarify or qualify his statement.

[Guilty Spark]

Maybe it's all aikido spiritually

Don't expect to defend yourself. Know that you WILL be defended and bend reality around that.

Kinda like bending a spoon in matrix.

[Disillusioned]

Most likely because he joined today with the sole intent of saying so. Hailing from japan, no less, so he must have loads of credibility on the subject, too :rolleyes:

Got me on the signup date.:p I've been lurking for a good long while though.

Although it may seem that way, Im not trying to troll or stir you up. I simply do not think aikido (on its own especially) should be seen as a legitimate system of self-defense. Those of you who do see it that way are, in my opinion, delusional at best, and a danger to themselves (not so much others, thankfully) at worst.

I studied aikido for more than 6 years and took it VERY seriously till I was actually in "real fights", one of which started directly from me verbally defending the effectiveness of aikido to some meathead. (he even grabbed my wrist before pummeling me just to prove his point)

The best reason to study aikido, in my opinion, is because its a spiritually fulfilling endeavor. Thats why I still visit the dojo from time to time. As far as self-defense goes, I've long since given it up for Sambo / MT.

[Carsten Möllering]

Hi,

Those of you who do see it that way are, in my opinion, delusional at best, and a danger to themselves (not so much others, thankfully) at worst.

Aikido helped me sometimes not to get attacked.
It helped me sometimes very well when I was attacked.

I also give Semiars for people who are working with mentaly disabled persons who get aggressive sometimes. We do a very very short version of aikido to teach people just to get not injured and to get control of the attacker without hurting or even pain him or her.
I'm doing this for three jear now with good feedback. It works. The most interesting aspect: The People who attended my seminar get attacked less often than before.

And I'm not a fighter at all.

I simply do not think aikido (on its own especially) should be seen as a legitimate system of self-defense.
Well it can be a very effectiv system of self-defense if it is taught that way. That's the point. It isn't aikido which is not working. It is your teacher who doesn't teach you that way.
But I experience indeed dojo, teachers, styles or organizations which don't teach an aikido being effectiv as self defense.

I studied aikido for more than 6 years and took it VERY seriously
In our Aikido we say you have to train at least about 7 years very intensive before you can start getting an ideaof how aikido realy works as self defense.
6 years isn't that much time of practice.

Don't know wether you know Tamura Nobuyoshi, Shihan of France? He said, the beginning of effectivenes can start with sandan.

However: I practice for 15 years now and when I look back on the aikido I did after 7 years or so, I have to smile.
(Will be the same looking on my today-aikido after again 15 years.)

one of which started directly from me verbally defending the effectiveness of aikido to some meathead.
You lost before he touched you.
It works better if you don't want to prove that it works.
To create such a situation or let him create it doesn't help the technique but does constrain it.

The best reason to study aikido, in my opinion, is because its a spiritually fulfilling endeavor. That is indeed a very fine secondary effect of Aikido.

Carsten

[Kevin Leavitt]

Got me on the signup date.:p I've been lurking for a good long while though.

Although it may seem that way, Im not trying to troll or stir you up. I simply do not think aikido (on its own especially) should be seen as a legitimate system of self-defense. Those of you who do see it that way are, in my opinion, delusional at best, and a danger to themselves (not so much others, thankfully) at worst.

I studied aikido for more than 6 years and took it VERY seriously till I was actually in "real fights", one of which started directly from me verbally defending the effectiveness of aikido to some meathead. (he even grabbed my wrist before pummeling me just to prove his point)

The best reason to study aikido, in my opinion, is because its a spiritually fulfilling endeavor. Thats why I still visit the dojo from time to time. As far as self-defense goes, I've long since given it up for Sambo / MT.

Thanks for coming back and qualifying your post!

I understand what you are saying. Your experiences parallel mine (physically) which is why I spend alot of time with Judo, BJJ, and some other things.

However, the spectrum of violence and escalation of force etc is long and wide and "self defense" can be interpreted in many ways. I do tend to agree with your experiences though.

I think Aikido fills a niche and a role (at least the way I have studied it) that is necessary, needed, and that can be very effective or proactive, if you will.

Physcially, I do think there are some base skills that need to be learned that we seem to not cover much in AIkido, but there are also something in aikido that are very good that are not covered in other arts as well!

Of course, everyone's experiences, methods of training, whatnot are different so of course you wil get a different perspective and understanding of what violence is and how well aikido methodology etc does to help!

[grondahl]

So you do agree that aikido is flawed and ineffective viewed as a system for self defence?


In our Aikido we say you have to train at least about 7 years very intensive before you can start getting an ideaof how aikido realy works as self defense.
6 years isn't that much time of practice.

Don't know wether you know Tamura Nobuyoshi, Shihan of France? He said, the beginning of effectivenes can start with sandan.

[jxa127]

My aikido training worked for me after only three years of training. I dropped and pinned somebody who was high and violent without injury to him and with only a bruise for me (from hitting a chair as I turned).

A few years later, I again successfully restrained somebody who was high and violent -- again, without injury.

Later this year, I'll celebrate ten years of studying aikido. I wouldn't keep at it if I didn't think it was effective.

Regards,

-Drew

[Carsten Möllering]

Hi

I wouldn't keep at it if I didn't think it was effective.

I too was "tested" after only a few years of training. But I think you can't expect it to work systematicaly for everybody after only a few years.

So you do agree that aikido is flawed and ineffective viewed as a system for self defence?
Why should I?

And again: I think it's not aikido which works or not. It depends on the teacher and the practioner.

Carsten

[jxa127]

Hi

I too was "tested" after only a few years of training. But I think you can't expect it to work systematicaly for everybody after only a few years.

That's true. There are a lot of variables in how the instruction is given and received. I still maintain that if it is taught well and practiced well, two to three years gets one a good level of proficiency for basic self-defense. Dealing with a trained and canny attacker takes more time and more intense training -- including learning how to become a trained and canny attacker.

For what it's worth, I view aikido as part of a holistic approach to self-defense. It is part of a continuum of actions that ranges from basic awareness of my surrounding and basic personal security to using a firearm for the gravest circumstances. In the middle are deescalation, unarmed physical action, and non-lethal responses like pepper spray.

Regards,

[dalen7]

Those of you who do see it that way are, in my opinion, delusional at best, and a danger to themselves (not so much others, thankfully) at worst.

I studied aikido for more than 6 years and took it VERY seriously till I was actually in "real fights", one of which started directly from me verbally defending the effectiveness of aikido to some meathead.

That seems to be the real sticking point now isnt it?
What is a 'real' fight, and what is 'self defense' in light of your interpretation of the former?

Here is why I say what I do.

For some a real fight is defined by what happens in the UFC, etc.
They want Aikido to work on its 'own' to beat the other guy, if not, it aint real.

But in reality, the UFC is the furthest from a real fight...
In the fight clubs, etc., you have two people walking in there ready to beat each others brains out and get bloody.

However, outside in the real world, things are not that cut and dry.

One fight I was in went something like this:

- Me and dude had strong opinions about something, argument happened, next thing guy attacks with some jiu-jujutsu type move...I got out of the move, put him in a headlock waiting for the dude to chill out so he wouldnt try twisting any more body parts...could have pounded his face - but didnt want to be violent, just wanted him to chill.

I got tired, so he then did a Judo move on me...I landed on floor - his large body was coming to lay on top of me...so I popped him in the face with my foot, then I got up and popped him one more time in the nose with my fist to make sure he was in 'stop' - 'leave me alone' mode finally.

At that point he had a good flow of blood going from his nose.
I had not intention of roughing the dude up...I could have done a 'Mike Tyson' and bitten his ear off in headlock mode.

My point with the above statement is that fights are not cut and dry...in real fights the 'rules' vary by the individual...

- Typically, you dont go around and pound each other in the face when a fight breaks out. One reason, I suppose, is people dont want to risk being at trouble with the law...so they go 'wrestling'/'judo' mode to prove who is the 'top of the chain'.

Dont get me wrong, after the wrestling bit, inevitably the fighting/kicking bit comes in...even if its the one guy over doing himself as he is so wrapped up in his anger then.

Point:
Unlike the UFC, where you go looking for a fight...and start off in 'beat the bloody hell out of me' mode...in real life it starts with an argument, etc. and escalates.

In that scenario, dont underestimate Aikidos effectiveness to end a fight, and here is why.

1) Looking back, I could have ended the fight easily with any number of pins...knowing how the fights flow was, Sankyo would have fit in there nicely...and I could have just waited for him to chill out without exerting all the extra energy that I did when he was in a headlock.

2) Most importantly, (mostly thanks to Eckhart Tolle - and my integration of that thought into Aikido, etc.), I would have stopped the fight by allowing him to be...that is, not arguing with him...not defending my position of what is right.

Conclusion:
You know, #2 is really what Aikido is about to me...stopping the fight before it starts...in you.

Now that really does a number for someone who is young, or even older, who wants to prove they can defend themselves by how effectively they can beat the crap out of someone else...no ego in this - no rooster crowing here.

So is the question really about self defense?
Or is it about who can one up the other? And someone will always be there to be the strongest. ;)

I believe that fights, in different situations, can be avoided by whats going on in you and how you treat life.

Many people are like how I was, and are ready to defend pointless things...think about it, 2 guys in their 30s for Christ sake! :D
A bunch of immature kids is all. lol

So, yes, Aikido works at different levels, depending on what you want...you can even be the bully - which this dude, with his 'limited' jui-jutsu/judo move was...and it backed fired, literally, in his face. ;)

Peace

dAlen

[dalen7]

So you do agree that aikido is flawed and ineffective viewed as a system for self defence?

I think people dont get the jist of Aikido at first...
They are thinking straight forward brawl...this is a different road to be sure...its about flow, and most of all...learning about yourself. At least it has been for me. :)

(see above post) :D

Doubt I would have been so introspective with kickboxing. :)

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
I dont see it taking more than a year to be effective either...though it depends on your take on it.
At the same time, its something that seems you will always be able to improve at. :)

[MikeLogan]

Great Post, Dalen.

Jerry, pardon my troll diagnosis. I see where you're coming from, and personally have no training in grappling arts, and the only exposure I have to people that do train in grappling are members of my dojo. That being said it's obvious they also train aikido.

They have put me into some funny looking positions, let me tell you.

I would never enter a match with someone who has trained in grappling the same # of years as I have in aikido, which as of next week in fact, will only be 5 years. On the other hand if I were attacked by a complete stranger of the same experience as above, I believe aikido would avail me far better than never having trained at all. Primarily because the grappler in that case has no expectation, and tactics necessarily rely on the fact that they are not expected when it comes to a mis-match.

Kevin is a far better resource when it comes to the concept of tactics, but I would offer that you were setting yourself up for, at best, disappointment, at worst, pummeling via meat-head.

michael.

[observer]

The only martial art which is supposed to teach you that is aikido, but ... it doesn't. It is hard to say that aikido has been corrupted, but rather assimilated to modern people's needs, at least nowadays. You can paraphrase a famous Forest Gump's expression. Aikido is a box of chocolates, but people mostly are buying it because that is a very beautiful box. They do not care about the chocolates.

In my understanding, to react without thinking in a real fight you have to establish trained reflexes. The only way to do it is by repetitions. Dodging against various attacks is the most important skill you have to get, and aikido is based on it. It doesn't have too many techniques, just twelve, but all of them are deadly. They are based on throws directly on the head, and without a protection of the fall (on the back instead of the head), they can cause breaking of the neck. That is why aikido is called a peaceful martial art. By that protection you are supposed to demonstrate your power to discourage, not to kill.

[JimCooper]

I am considering taking Aikido, but I am unsure as to whether it would actually help me if someone where to attack me.

Self defence effectiveness of any art is influenced more by the instruction you have than the art itself, IMO.

Pretty much all martial arts purport to be, or at least derive from, effective combat arts. They pretty much all have some techniques and principles that would be effective, used the right way. And there are only so many ways to dong someone, or throw them on the ground, so there is quite an overlap in techniques as well.

IME, most dojo, even for the impact-oriented arts like karate, rarely train in "real" self defence (there is a limit to how real you can get in training without causing actual bodily harm). It's a bit hard to tell which dojo do teach self-defence properly without some knowledge already, but a good rule of thumb is to look at the attacks they use in that sort of training. A stepping punch is not a real attack, for example. It has its uses as a training tool to learn techniques, but nobody actually punches that way "for real".

Then there is the separate question about why you want to train. I don't necessarily have a problem with someone taking up an art to learn self defence. In fact, my own perspective is that I don't see the point of a martial art if you don't do any self defence - you can get at least some of the other benefits of it other (arguably better) ways.

However, training purely to fight is (hopefully!) not a good use of your time. When you consider how many hours a year you train, against how many hours a year you spend in fights (this is presumably close to zero), you probably want to think about getting something else out of it :-)

My experience is that aikido dojo are generally not particularly oriented towards self defence, often quite deliberately. OTOH, there is often more of an overt commitment to the character building side of MAs in aikido than most other arts, although again, this is largely down to the instructor.

FWIW, my own opinion is that character is not tested enough by the "happy dance" style of aikido, but that's a purely personal thing. And if self defence is not taught, that is not a problem for anyone happy with that, as long as they realise it (a lot of karate blackbelts just assume they know self defence, for example, but can't deal with being grabbed or thrown).

What I would always recommend is to not count any art out completely. I think it is far more important that you find an instructor you like, and a dojo where you feel comfortable.

[mathewjgano]

Self defence effectiveness of any art is influenced more by the instruction you have than the art itself, IMO...What I would always recommend is to not count any art out completely. I think it is far more important that you find an instructor you like, and a dojo where you feel comfortable.

Well said, Jim!

[Guilty Spark]

Generally I don't think Aikido is very good for self defense at all.

Ultimately a bad carpenter blames their tools right? If you've did Aikido for 6 years and had the floor wiped with you is it Aikido's fault as a martial art or is it your fault for notmaking sure you get the proper training?

Did you spend 6 years having someone attack you with the unrealistic over the head 'bottle of a beer attack' or did you train against someone trying to hurt you?

Good point about UFC not being a realistic benchmark to gague effectiveness in a self defense environment.

[Enrique Antonio Reyes]

I am considering taking Aikido, but I am unsure as to whether it would actually help me if someone where to attack me. Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

Hi Alex,

In my (meager) fight experience I have always found the footwork I learned very helpful. As far as applying locks/catching punches I've had very discouraging results. but the footwork (along with some form of atemi and kokyu technique) has saved me in a lot of tough one-to-one and one vs. many situations.

One-Aiki,

Iking

[observer]

Generally I don't think Aikido is very good for self defense at all.
I always repeat that aikido is about dodging and killing in a blink of an eye. OK, you don't like that, especially the second part. Forget about it, and focus on dodging. Practice in dojo and out of dojo. Without any doubts it will help you not only in a crowd (legends about O'Sensei), but also in any dangerous street situation. Just survive 2 minutes randori without being hit, grabbed nor overturned.

[eyrie]

What the heck is a "real fight" anyway? A fight, "real", "staged" or otherwise, is still a fight - 2 (or more) combatants going at it.

Self-defence is NOT fighting - it's one person fending off an (and usually, unprovoked) assault by one or more person(s). Anyone who thinks that the two are synonymous needs to understand the legal ramifications of each. They are not the same thing.

The general misconception is that "self-defence" involves being able to beat the crap out of an attacker, and that misconception violates both the legal principle of self-defence, and justifiable use of force, by crossing the line from being assertive to being aggressive.

There are many ways to be assertive without being aggressive - and you don't need Aikido [or insert other MA] for that. Seems that human civilization is still in need of further evolution if we still think that more violence is necessary to remedy violence against us, and our God given right to protect ourselves, our loved-ones and our property.

[donplummer]

It has in fact helped me STAY OUT of many fights...the redirection of energy is not purely limited to the kinetic world, it can be applied intellectually or emotionally as well, AIkido has saved my life, on varied and numerous occasions

[Guilty Spark]

our God given right to protect ourselves, our loved-ones and our property.

How did God give us the right to protect ourselves?
Rights seem more of a constitutional type thing, no?

I think the diference between a real fight and a stage fight, regardless of two people 'going at it' is pretty huge my friend.

[Cyrijl]

Just to jump in on the whole "but the ufc isn't really fighting" argument. I think the argument from the MMA side is since they are used to getting hit, they are more likely to be able to concentrate after the initial attack. Those who are not used to physical confrontation, those who have never been hit, are more likely to freeze or be unable to concentrate once attacked.

[Aikibu]

Here we go again...

Mr. Siverman mentions his reasons and I think it is important to note the specifics...

He was in a Bar

he was in an argument about the effectiveness of Aikido with a "drunk"

The Drunk GRABBED his wrist and hammered him...

I leave it to others to point out Mr. Silverman's apparent tactical mistakes

I'll also leave you with this little "Aiki" paradox...

"There is no wrist grabbing in Aikido" Shoji Nishio Shihan

"Hey!!! Thats not Aikido!!!"

That cute little phrase has been yelped at least a half a dozen times by folks that challenged the Martial Effectivness of Aikido in my last 20 or so years. :)

William Hazen

[Ketsan]

Just to jump in on the whole "but the ufc isn't really fighting" argument. I think the argument from the MMA side is since they are used to getting hit, they are more likely to be able to concentrate after the initial attack. Those who are not used to physical confrontation, those who have never been hit, are more likely to freeze or be unable to concentrate once attacked.

I find that line of argument kinda amusing. In Aikido I've been dropped on my head, had joints damaged, been hit with wooden weapons, punched, kicked, elbowed, had my nose broken. Cracked and broken ribs are par for the course where I train, broken fingers are fairly common. People have fallen on me.
I'm sitting here with a ligament injury that'll put me out of training for the next three weeks, it's an accepted fact where I train that you'll get hit and that you will pick up injuries.

MMA guys aren't the only one's that are used to being hit. The only real difference is that if an MMA guy get's hit then he shrugs it off because he's always getting hit and it means nothing.
To an Aikidoka, getting hit means you just got stabbed and you are now dead.

[David Orange]

I am considering taking Aikido, but I am unsure as to whether it would actually help me if someone where to attack me. Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

No. But it has helped me face down multiple would-be attackers on at least three occasions--two guys twice and three guys another time. Also, once, early on, I was walking across a parking lot late at night (early morning) and a guy was coming from the other direction. Just as we were passing, he turned and made as if he were going to jump me. My body responded reflexively, turning to meet him, and he immediately broke it off and ran.

So I never had to get into a fight. That's how aikido helped me.

David

[Don_Modesto]

No. But it has helped me face down multiple would-be attackers...My body responded reflexively, turning to meet him, and he immediately broke it off and ran.

So I never had to get into a fight. That's how aikido helped me.My experience on, too. Alertness and demeanor count for a lot.

Pursuant to this: Grayson, B. and Stein, M.I. (1981) Attracting Assault: Victims' Nonverbal Cues. Journal of Communication 31 (1): 68-75.

[Minh Nguyen]

If we have no choice but to defense ourselves, do you think that using linear instead of spiral motion is better to immobilize the attacker?

When I practice Aikido, I figure that pivoting on the mat is not easy but still doable. However, on the street, using leverage technique seems easier and more effective. I have never been attacked on the street, but if linear projection is easier for me on the mat, I assume it would be the same on the street.

[Daniel Blanco]

Yes as a law enforcement officer,first let me express my opnion that aikido is a Martial Art and also a Martial Controlling art, EX: I had a perp who tried to attack me , he threw a round house punch I went under his arm, into a Nikkyo (omote) arm bar, I had complete control of this thug/perp and he became very cooperative with me, i walked away with no injuries, and this is why I study Aikido. To all never doubt the martial art(aikido) that u study, focus on what you need to get out of it and your art will never fail you in combat. The way you train will prove sucess. Hopes this helps all, and respect goes to all Martial Arts (I am always a student and willing to learn.)

[Daniel Blanco]

Yes as a law enforcement officer,first let me express my opnion that aikido is a Martial Art and also a Martial Controlling art, EX: I had a perp who tried to attack me , he threw a round house punch I went under his arm, into a Nikkyo (omote) arm bar, I had complete control of this thug/perp and he became very cooperative with me, i walked away with no injuries, and this is why I study Aikido. To all never doubt the martial art(aikido) that u study, focus on what you need to get out of it and your art will never fail you in combat. The way you train will prove sucess. Hopes this helps all, and respect goes to all Martial Arts (I am always a student and willing to learn.)

[Cyrijl]

I find that line of argument kinda amusing. In Aikido I've been dropped on my head, had joints damaged, been hit with wooden weapons, punched, kicked, elbowed, had my nose broken. Cracked and broken ribs are par for the course where I train, broken fingers are fairly common. People have fallen on me.
I'm sitting here with a ligament injury that'll put me out of training for the next three weeks, it's an accepted fact where I train that you'll get hit and that you will pick up injuries.

MMA guys aren't the only one's that are used to being hit. The only real difference is that if an MMA guy get's hit then he shrugs it off because he's always getting hit and it means nothing.
To an Aikidoka, getting hit means you just got stabbed and you are now dead.

That doesn't seem to be the norm for two of the aikido dojo here in boston.

[John Longford]

All situations are different. Aikido can be effective but if you train and then expect to be invincible you are in for a shock.
I have friend who has had to use his Aikido as a policeman in Glasgow and another who has used it to great effect on several occasions running a centre in the same town.
A guy once attacked a friend of mine in our local. I pushed my friend out of the way, at which point the guy swung at me. to this day I cannot believe what I did. I caught both his wrists, crossed them in front of him and pulled him down, effectively immobilising him. I would never teach such a ridiculous technique but it worked on that ocassion.
Personally though Aikido has over the years subdued my ego and allowed me to avoid conflict in the first place.

[Minh Nguyen]

All situations are different. Aikido can be effective but if you train and then expect to be invincible you are in for a shock.
I have friend who has had to use his Aikido as a policeman in Glasgow and another who has used it to great effect on several occasions running a centre in the same town.
A guy once attacked a friend of mine in our local. I pushed my friend out of the way, at which point the guy swung at me. to this day I cannot believe what I did. I caught both his wrists, crossed them in front of him and pulled him down, effectively immobilising him. I would never teach such a ridiculous technique but it worked on that ocassion.
Personally though Aikido has over the years subdued my ego and allowed me to avoid conflict in the first place.

From what you say, it seems like Jujitsu leverage technique. I am an Aikido beginner. My sensei usually teaches how to project an attack using either linear or circular motion. In either case, I shouldn't feel like I'm using significant muscular force.

[gdandscompserv]

I find that line of argument kinda amusing. In Aikido I've been dropped on my head, had joints damaged, been hit with wooden weapons, punched, kicked, elbowed, had my nose broken. Cracked and broken ribs are par for the course where I train, broken fingers are fairly common. People have fallen on me.
I'm sitting here with a ligament injury that'll put me out of training for the next three weeks, it's an accepted fact where I train that you'll get hit and that you will pick up injuries.
Sensei NEVER injured us. I, likewise, pride myself on NOT injuring my students. Who will you train with then?

[Russell Davis]

Some very interesting comments to your question, directly the answer is yes, but so has Muay Thai, Kali, Judo
WHY do you want to learn Aikido? if its for self defence you are on the wrong track, as it will take some time before you are competent enough to use what you have learned. in the shorter term I would suggest Boxing, Muay Thai or Kali.
You could also consider the option of running like hell.

[wideawakedreamer]

Ah yes, nothing like good ol' Run-do. :D

[David Orange]

If we have no choice but to defense ourselves, do you think that using linear instead of spiral motion is better to immobilize the attacker?

When I practice Aikido, I figure that pivoting on the mat is not easy but still doable. However, on the street, using leverage technique seems easier and more effective. I have never been attacked on the street, but if linear projection is easier for me on the mat, I assume it would be the same on the street.

You have to go with what comes most powerfully and don't second-guess yourself. In my case, I used pivoting three of the four times. The last time, as I was walking through the parking lot, the guy passed near me (which should have been a signal, since we were the only people in the parking lot) and he suddenly turned and probably would have jumped me, but I turned toward him (involuntarily) as he turned toward me and I would have yanked him off his feet and tossed him in the direction he was moving (by continuing my turn) if he hadn't broken it off and split.

I think, of the two, the circular movement is better for you and if you find it difficult on the mat, you should practice it 10000 times more and think about it.

Best to you.

David

[David Orange]

I think the diference between a real fight and a stage fight, regardless of two people 'going at it' is pretty huge my friend.

A friend was recently telling me what his dad told him--that in a real fight, people actually get lips and ears ripped off and suffer other horrendous injuries, meaning, to me, that you'd better get your best response in right away and make it count befor you end up counting your lips and ears!

David

[Ketsan]

Sensei NEVER injured us. I, likewise, pride myself on NOT injuring my students. Who will you train with then?

Oh Sensei's never injured anyone, I think he'd be mortified if he did.

[Ketsan]

That doesn't seem to be the norm for two of the aikido dojo here in boston.

It's not the norm for dojo here either, I know of two dojo, including the one I train in, that train this way. I think our mind set is quite different from most Aikidoka.

[Tim Gerrard]

It's not the norm for dojo here either, I know of two dojo, including the one I train in, that train this way. I think our mind set is quite different from most Aikidoka.

Most; but not all.

To make the most of your training you must train as realistically as possible. Continuing even though you've been hit (or stabbed) means that you'll fight how you train. Training hard hurts, and you will pick up injuries along the way, a small price to pay when it does happen.

Those of us that have been in a real fight - not some made up bar fight - you'll know that it hurts (alot), you've got to fight to not be blinded by adrenaline and tunnel vision, and that things happen only when you've trained enough for them to become reflex - or at least with minimal thought.

Also IMHO we need to separate the Martial Art and the Self Defence aspect. You learn a Martial Art and then apply it to real life; in my experience (as a copper) this has been a very effective approach - as the scenario based training you get in the majority of self defence classes is flawed, as you memorise, almost kata like, the response to a predetermined attack (downward knife into an ippon sio-nage was always my favourite :rolleyes:). When the scenario differs (as 90% of the time it does, people panic, and then suffer for it). Applying a martial art allows someone to approach each situation with a blank canvas, and take it as it comes.

And to answer the original question; yes Aikido has helped numerous times whilst on duty (strange, never gotten into a fight when I haven't been at work, change your lifestyle or choice of drinking establishment) - Aikido works; end of.

[jxa127]

O' Sensei never injured anyone, I think he'd be mortified if he did.

Alex,

There's a pretty famous story of O'Sensei giving a demonstration to the emperor of Japan, during which, he broke the arm of his uke. Additionally, the early dojo that O'Sensei set up was called the "Hell Dojo"! O'Sensei was known for his powerful technique and I'm sure he caused quite a few injuries in his time -- Lord knows that I have (though not on purpose).

Regards,

-Drew

[Tim Gerrard]

Alex,

There's a pretty famous story of O'Sensei giving a demonstration to the emperor of Japan, during which, he broke the arm of his uke. Additionally, the early dojo that O'Sensei set up was called the "Hell Dojo"! O'Sensei was known for his powerful technique and I'm sure he caused quite a few injuries in his time -- Lord knows that I have (though not on purpose).

Regards,

-Drew

Most of O'Sensei's formative years were spent scrapping; read Angry White Pyjamas and other accounts. He was pretty merciless when it came down to it. He mellowed somewhat after the war - as did his Aikido.

[philippe willaume]

Got me on the signup date.:p I've been lurking for a good long while though.

Although it may seem that way, Im not trying to troll or stir you up. I simply do not think aikido (on its own especially) should be seen as a legitimate system of self-defense. Those of you who do see it that way are, in my opinion, delusional at best, and a danger to themselves (not so much others, thankfully) at worst.

I studied aikido for more than 6 years and took it VERY seriously till I was actually in "real fights", one of which started directly from me verbally defending the effectiveness of aikido to some meathead. (he even grabbed my wrist before pummeling me just to prove his point)

The best reason to study aikido, in my opinion, is because its a spiritually fulfilling endeavor. Thats why I still visit the dojo from time to time. As far as self-defense goes, I've long since given it up for Sambo / MT.
Hello

Before we go any further yes I do agree
That there is some aikido out of there where practitioners would have problem fending off my grand mother
That really you do need to have strikes and throw-down/pins in you repertoire and some sort of ground (even if it is only how not to get there or recover as fast as you can)
That you need resistance training and sparring of some description
That you need a minimum of conditioning physical and to pain

Self defence wise, there is as much gaps in 1v1 as there is in aikido. They are just not the same. As well ground and pound is one the best way to dent your defence in court and make sure GBH rears its ugly head

We could go on how in some aikido school you move as you strike to occupy the space, isolate the arm and get out of the way of kicks or strike from the other hand.
Or how you would have needed to be more active with the hand he grabbed and so started the technique earlier (ie before he grabbed) but it is kind of saying what you would have done with MT/sambo combo.

I believe that the answer may very well be not a lot more. You were not in a 1v1 situation, you go “ambushed”. He got into a favourable position by verbally deceiving you. It is very probable as well that your aikido experience favoured that deception as well as keeping you level of commitment much lower than his. Regardless he was there to prove point and it is very likely that he stacked up the advantages on his side.

For example having a square shoulder posture, grabbing aihennmi, if possible with his lead foot on the same line of you lead foot
The grab would with the arm at 45 or closer to his body.
Basically he probably set up at a distance within which you could touch his body if you had your arm straight.
Capitalising on the fact that you were not very likely to strike, just by the set up he had your outside totally open from a distance where it is fiendishly difficult to stop a strike. Beside he was grabbing the only hand that was in a position where it could have been useful against the initial punch.

That being said if was aikido minded, he could have chose to strike your elbow, and he would have had gokio, rokkio or ikkio if it was from above or from bellow the shiho nague that looks like ippon sheonague and you would have been able to mount as much as a defence as if he had punched you in the face.

phil

[Guilty Spark]

I too wondered about the comment of O'Sensei never injuring anyone.

If you train hard injuries are bound to happen. Injuries should be avoided for obvious reasons.
It impacts someones personal life. An injury can impede on someones ability to take care of their family and also effect their job.
Injury a student and they may be out of class weeks months or in the case of my school a year (or for good).

That said I don't think a school that has injuries is a hallmark of bad training. If there is a history of poor saftey or discipline that's one thing but good hard training means at times people will get injured. That's true of all sports and martial arts I think, no?

[John Longford]

If you lack confidence and a situation is building up from a verbal attack the chances are you will freeze and you wll think too much. If, however, an attack just happens there is a very good chance that your Aikido training will kick in. The technique will not resemble any specific move e.g. Ikkyo or Kotegaeshi but will be a combination of all that you have learnt.
Yes, Aikido can be used for self defence but as Russell Davis has already pointed out, there are easier ways to learn if self defence is your only goal.

[Ketsan]

Alex,

There's a pretty famous story of O'Sensei giving a demonstration to the emperor of Japan, during which, he broke the arm of his uke. Additionally, the early dojo that O'Sensei set up was called the "Hell Dojo"! O'Sensei was known for his powerful technique and I'm sure he caused quite a few injuries in his time -- Lord knows that I have (though not on purpose).

Regards,

-Drew

I never said O-Sensei. I said Oh Sensei. As in "Oh my sensei has never injured anyone." :D

[jxa127]

I never said O-Sensei. I said Oh Sensei. As in "Oh my sensei has never injured anyone." :D

Ah. My fault. Sorry about that. :)

-Drew

[Daniel Ranger-Holt]

Got me on the signup date.:p I've been lurking for a good long while though.

Although it may seem that way, Im not trying to troll or stir you up. I simply do not think aikido (on its own especially) should be seen as a legitimate system of self-defense. Those of you who do see it that way are, in my opinion, delusional at best, and a danger to themselves (not so much others, thankfully) at worst.

I studied aikido for more than 6 years and took it VERY seriously till I was actually in "real fights", one of which started directly from me verbally defending the effectiveness of aikido to some meathead. (he even grabbed my wrist before pummeling me just to prove his point)

The best reason to study aikido, in my opinion, is because its a spiritually fulfilling endeavor. Thats why I still visit the dojo from time to time. As far as self-defense goes, I've long since given it up for Sambo / MT.

Agreed, wow, fascinating, this debate is still going on within the Aikido circles. it was a long time ago well a year and a bit or something lol that i announced me leaving aikido, i havent actually checked that old thread of mine since 09-01-2008. And i wont go back into it and dig it up. But my reasons for leaving were because i personally knew Aikido as i knew it, didn't work in a fight.

All this skirting around what a fight is....best option is to walk away etc, its really awkward to read and sad. Most people here know what people are asking when they say 'would it work in a fight', but avoid answering it direct because they know it would not.

Ive done the doors now for what must be a year and a half straight, and if i can avoid fights i do, i'd rather go home in one piece, talking your way out and humbling yourself is an art also and it often works but unfortunately bouncers were targets for people who felt they had to prove themselves, particularly me, being a guy who on sight could intimidate people even though im soft as hell.

Back then my two or so years of Aikido simply didnt kick in, the snap of someone throwing a punch at you is very different to Aikidos training, the fast unpredictability of a confrontation, adrenalin pumping etc. Aikido doesnt work in those situations, most here know this, but with Aikido theres a very almost religious like bond to the art.

I've now done Krav Maga for a year and a half, and because of what it is, a very effective fast brutal, ugly hybrid of striing kicking and ground, weapon defence for self defence only, we are all very open with it. Some techniques we dont like, some we do, we experiment. But we spar, we come at full speed etc, krav isnt special its just my chosen, but the point is, if someone said to me Krav doesnt work in a fight, it wouldnt feel like my religion was offended, as it does to some Aikido peeps. Because it would be like saying boxing doesnt work in a fight...of course it does.

Aikido on the other hand?? people are still unsure...

I know my chosen art Krav works, and the results are hard :uch: but if someones coming for you with agression, they should be hard IMO. This goes against Aikido in general. Perhaps why i never enjoyed the theory side of it. No pain to the attacker etc. I must have done aikido for about two years, i only wish it was something else now, i could have been three years deep into Krav and would have NO QUESTION as to if it could work in a fight lol. Same as a Boxer doesnt, Kickboxer doesnt, Kung fu etc. Its only AIkido that has this internal struggle of "are we any good on the street"

If somone grabs you before hand, your wrist, or shirt etc then Aikido will work. If the situations are created in the dojo fine it will work if you're decent at it. But what if your taken to the ground, what if you come up against someone whos throwing quick jabs, not telegraphed floating punches..its endless, ive seen scraps from all angles and well i just know on my life, that unless its a convienient recreation of the dojo setting and situation Aikido is unlikely to be effective.

I wish i knew this when i wasted near two years doing it. But...it was a stepping stone into what i do now, and for that i will always be eternally grateful to it. And my old sensei who was a dear friend and her son.

It feels like im attacking personally, i know, i was very defensive of aikido, as i was with my old religion, when i was a certain religion i wouldnt hear nothing else, NOTHING stubborn, but once i was honest with myself, i knew i'd been living in part a lie to myself.

I just dont feel its fair for people who want to learn Self Defence to waste years of their lives training in Aikido, only to find out its not actually an effective self defence at all. More a close knit spiritual club. Which is fine, and theres a ton of worse things people could be doing. But its for the dojo and the mat only, in my expierience.

Aikido mixed with something else? Now thats different, ive recenly started Wing Chun, which is great, but i know without Krav it lacks, because Krav has ground work which wing chun i belive doesn't but the concentrated striking is appealing so im into that now too.

All im saying is, five years on, if i was still doin aikido, i would still be unsure as to if it could "work in a real fight" but five years down the line Krav? Or Krav and Wingchun as im now doing? well...:)

Aikido is a fascinating look into how the body works, and a soft passive protection art but no way effective if someone wants to actually fight you. Ive heard many people say "its good for stopping a drunk uncle who goes to far etc" thats fine, and some people dont want it to be more than that, but to those who do, i personally would say...anything but Aikido (on its own)

NO offence meant people, just passionate about people being duped into beliving aikido is something, that is really isnt. Effective real self defence. Thanks. :)

[Raptr20]

Daniel Ranger-Holt I value your comments. I can say in my own personal aikido training that aikido has worked for me in real life fights-3 times. But to me it felt like I failed.

I would say to other people who love the art (Aikido) as much as I do to get out and go experience different styles of aikido (after you have a good base in kenowaza). It is amazing how different sensei's and organizations emipsize different details. This has helped me grow and develop and open my eyes to many different situations.

Daniel I hope you find what you’re looking for in your new styles. Be safe and have fun.

[Guilty Spark]

I can say in my own personal aikido training that aikido has worked for me in real life fights-3 times. But to me it felt like I failed.

Can you explain that?

[Aikibu]

Agreed, wow, fascinating, this debate is still going on within the Aikido circles. it was a long time ago well a year and a bit or something lol that i announced me leaving aikido, i havent actually checked that old thread of mine since 09-01-2008. And i wont go back into it and dig it up. But my reasons for leaving were because i personally knew Aikido as i knew it, didn't work in a fight.


Your last sentence explains much...It's impossible to know Aikido works after just a couple years of training...

All im saying is, five years on, if i was still doin aikido, i would still be unsure as to if it could "work in a real fight" but five years down the line Krav? Or Krav and Wingchun as im now doing? well...:)

Agreed when you have the mindset Aikido will not work for me you have only two choices practice harder and challenge this mindset or move on to something that you feel gives you the confidence you need...

Aikido is a fascinating look into how the body works, and a soft passive protection art but no way effective if someone wants to actually fight you. Ive heard many people say "its good for stopping a drunk uncle who goes to far etc" thats fine, and some people dont want it to be more than that, but to those who do, i personally would say...anything but Aikido (on its own)

I think you don't know enough about what you're talking about outside of your personal experiance. Our Aikido is designed with the idea that it must be effective against other Martial Arts or we won't practice it. There are other flavors of Aikido that also "work" very well. And yes...Our beginners techniques feature wrist grabbing. There are many excellent instructors here on the site who can explain why we feature cooperative training. It's just takes some reading.

NO offence meant people, just passionate about people being duped into beliving aikido is something, that is really isnt. Effective real self defence. Thanks. :)

Your "passion" is misplaced...and not supported by any actual facts or statistics...

William Hazen

[Minh Nguyen]

Do you think that if Aikido cuts complicated circular movements, it will be a very effective self-defense method?
I don't learn Aikido long enough to decide which is more effective. For now, however, I realize that doing irimi to blend and neutralize an attack seems easier than turning around and pivoting.

[Raptr20]

Grant Wagar i failed because it came down to using physical aikido.

[Daniel Ranger-Holt]

Your last sentence explains much...It's impossible to know Aikido works after just a couple years of training...

Your "passion" is misplaced...and not supported by any actual facts or statistics...

William Hazen

Just want to address these two points, if after two years of training im still not going to be able to use Aikido as an effective self defence method then i happily admit it is not for me. I heard of some techniques taking 20 years to learn etc. After two years at a martial art i expect to be able to have some kindof bare bones to use in a confrontation right? two years two/three times a week is a long time. If in your words its "impossible to know [how] aikido works after just a couple of years training" Aikido heads sometimes think its a good, proud moment to say that. "aikido is so hard you will NEVER learn or understand it" lol, to me thats a negative not a plus.

My passion is not supported by any actual facts you say, i think this may have been my fault and i didnt explain myself well enough. ive done another post over a year ago titled "im leaving aikido" or something simililar i got into much more detail there about my expieriences.

After about two years Aikido, i took up a job on the doors, bouncing, thinking my self defence art would help me to some degree, of course while training more. I discovered in the speed and rush of a real confrontation (on average at the club there are 6 or 7 ejections a night - throwing people out) i worked three nights a week. I had more confrontations then i can count. I actually wrote a blog on it, but had so many i couldnt keep up writing it.

The point is, it is actual facts when i tell you that in fights, confrontations even applying locks to calm people down etc, applying, not waiting for them to stick a hand out but disabling someone from the get go to calm them. Aikido as i was trainied, the traditional style, was useless. I found it didnt work. This is what caused me to leave and seek out another art, which was very very very effective after only three months!! now a year and a half on in it, i feel very comfortable.

Raptr20 Thanks for the words. Ok i have heard of other styles of Aikido that branch away from "traditional". So more sport emphasised aikido etc, which is perhaps what i should have gone for, or hybrid aikido with other stuff. But i went to a traditional AIkido school, was expecting to learn self defence, came out two years later with a head full of unusual concepts and an art which i felt could not be used in a realistic situation outside of the flowing grace and scrpited movements of the mat.

I wish to emphasise again, this is in no way meant to offend people. My name is up here, my real name, i am simply giving my opinions of Aikido, and as to why i think its the only martial art where the question "is it actually effective" constantly asked. The thought of someone like myself going at it for so many years to find what they've learned is how to slice a wooden sword and spin in a circle well, as opposed to harsh hard impact of full on confrontation and fighting, its just not fair on people.

If someone says to me "you shouldnt have done traditional aikido you should have done this style of aikido with kicks or punches etc" then fine, i was doing the wrong type. But Aikido in general is not an effective form of self defence on its own. Just one look at you tube, and you start to see a pattern in aikido videos that leaves you feeling very uncomfortable. The pattern is "this wouldnt work in a fight" and because ive actually expierienced it, i can tell you it doesnt.

Resolving an argument if someone grabs your arm, or slowly lunges toward you who is high off drugs or drink etc. Then it becomes more possible but if someone off the street with no skills in any art but just brawler fighting comes for you, you'd stand no chance if you've just been doing traditional Aikido. You would get your teeth knocked out. No one is moving toward you as they do in any youtube video you've seen of aikido. Running in with a fist extended etc, grabbing your wrist, its almost crazy to claim its real street defence.

Aikido is something else i cant quite describe, close to a religion. But its not an effective method of defending yourself in the street. Unless you mix it up with something else. This is what i have physically expierienced, this is what i know.

Put it simple, put someone who has trained in aikido for five years, against someone who has been training in Kickboxing, MMA, Boxing, BJJ, Krav Maga, Wing Chun, Karate..etc. The outcome would be painful and embaressing. Theres only so much spinning and avoiding they would be able to do until they get smacked in the face. Stop duping yourselves with regards to aikido and self defence people, seriously. For balance etc etc how to walk away from a fight great. But be real with yourselves about it, and more importantly be real with others, new students and such.

[philippe willaume]

Just want to address these two points, if...... be real with others, new students and such.

Hello
Your points are all valids.
Now if you read this forum you will see that the other undying recurring thread is about atemi in aikido.
Hopefully it should shed light on what some people are trying to get at and that you are not alone in thinking that tenchin back and trying to get the wrist is not a really promising opening gambit to say the least.

phil

[lbb]

Just want to address these two points, if after two years of training im still not going to be able to use Aikido as an effective self defence method then i happily admit it is not for me.

That's fine. So, what is it exactly that you need self defense for? What are you defending against? Where, when and how are people attacking you?

[Guilty Spark]

Grant Wagar i failed because it came down to using physical aikido.

I'm still wrapping my head around this idea of using aikido = failure.

If me and my friend see you, your wife and your kid out walking through the park ad we pull a knife on you, try to rob you (or even worse) and you use aikido to defend yourself your wife and your child, you would consider it failing because you had to resort to using physical aikido?

[solidsteven]

Just want to address these two points, if after two years of training im still not going to be able to use Aikido as an effective self defence method then i happily admit it is not for me.

Hi Daniel,

Im happy for you that you were able to find what you were looking for in Krav Maga which you couldnt find in Aikido.
There is no point in continuing in Aikido if you do not agree what is being taught.

Too bad though...

not sure if I am allowed to tell you this... >_> <_<
after exactly 3 years in Aikido you will be invited to the
"secret Aikido circle" which is exclusively for people that were
able to withstand the torment of 3 years of useless techniques!
all those ikkyos shihonages and kotegaeshis are just made up
to test your patience!
In the "secret Aikido circle" you are then given a blood-red hakama
and are taught all of the "real" and "deadly" waza.
I cant get into much detail here else I will have the use the
"Aiki no-touch death throw" on you!evileyes

...just letting you know what you missed:D

For real though

Aikido as i was trainied, the traditional style, was useless. I found it didnt work. This is what caused me to leave and seek out another art, which was very very very effective after only three months!! now a year and a half on in it, i feel very comfortable.

Aikido has a different focus than most MAs. Most being more of a destructive art, Aikido chooses to be more of a healing art.
It takes more time to be able to heal than to destroy.
The Focus of Aikido is to blend with the attack and to be in complete control of your enemies and your own movement.
This is very difficult and takes a lot of time to learn, but it does give you the option to protect the enemy.
The idea is that you give the enemy the chance to change his mindset towards his attack, instead of cutting him down
(This might sound very religious to you!).

We put most of our mat time into learning how to connect with our opponents instead of destroying them.
This makes Aikido a very modern MA for me. The fighting days are over, its no more "eat or be eaten".
There is no need to destroy our enemies anymore these days.
I agree though that your average Aikido dojo does not effectively teach you how to fight.
If this is the path one is interested in, one can always include this knowledge in his system.
It's just that you won't learn these things in your regular Aikido mat-time. We are busy with other things… ;)


Put it simple, put someone who has trained in aikido for five years, against someone who has been training in Kickboxing, MMA, Boxing, BJJ, Krav Maga, Wing Chun, Karate..etc. The outcome would be painful and embaressing.

There is no point into comparing MA with eachother. What would you learn out of this? If Kickboxing guy beats Boxing guy, is Kickboxing better?
What if the boxing guy beats the kickboxing guy with a baseball bat? who is better then???
each MA has different goals and training methods.
for example:
if I were to fight Remy Bonjasky in the K1 finals i definitley would choose to have learned Kickboxing, Karate Muay Thai. Why? cause
they dont allow Throws in K1.

What if was attacked with a knife? Here i would prefer to have Aikido over boxing. Why? If I defend myself with a classic boxing defence I would get my arms cut off. In Aikido I learned how to control his knife hand. Also, I wont be able to grab his knife with my boxing gloves on:p

kind of pointless isnt it?

[Michael Douglas]

I wanna read your blog and hear about your ejections..... I discovered in the speed and rush of a real confrontation (on average at the club there are 6 or 7 ejections a night - throwing people out) i worked three nights a week. I had more confrontations then i can count. I actually wrote a blog on it, but had so many i couldnt keep up writing it.

Put it simple, put someone who has trained in aikido for five years, against someone who has been training in Kickboxing, MMA, Boxing, BJJ, Krav Maga, Wing Chun, Karate..etc. ..
Don't mention the Ch_n, please. :cool:

[Aikibu]

Just want to address these two points, if after two years of training im still not going to be able to use Aikido as an effective self defence method then i happily admit it is not for me. I heard of some techniques taking 20 years to learn etc. After two years at a martial art i expect to be able to have some kindof bare bones to use in a confrontation right? two years two/three times a week is a long time. If in your words its "impossible to know [how] aikido works after just a couple of years training" Aikido heads sometimes think its a good, proud moment to say that. "aikido is so hard you will NEVER learn or understand it" lol, to me thats a negative not a plus.

My passion is not supported by any actual facts you say, i think this may have been my fault and i didnt explain myself well enough. ive done another post over a year ago titled "im leaving aikido" or something simililar i got into much more detail there about my expieriences.

After about two years Aikido, i took up a job on the doors, bouncing, thinking my self defence art would help me to some degree, of course while training more. I discovered in the speed and rush of a real confrontation (on average at the club there are 6 or 7 ejections a night - throwing people out) i worked three nights a week. I had more confrontations then i can count. I actually wrote a blog on it, but had so many i couldnt keep up writing it.

Poor Dear and I do mean that sincerely. I worked as a bouncer and had the exact opposite esperiance with my Aikido Practice and It never ever failed me. Not once...Still my experiance is still only "anecdotal fact" and thats my point... There are a ton of folks who are in the "conflict resolution" profession and they seem to find Aikido effective...All you telling me with your broad and sweeping generalizations is that YOUR AIKIDO failed you...So to take your (or my experiance) as a general "fact" is a bit of a stretch....

The point is, it is actual facts when i tell you that in fights, confrontations even applying locks to calm people down etc, applying, not waiting for them to stick a hand out but disabling someone from the get go to calm them. Aikido as i was trainied, the traditional style, was useless. I found it didnt work. This is what caused me to leave and seek out another art, which was very very very effective after only three months!! now a year and a half on in it, i feel very comfortable.

Like I said before...I have no problem finding something that works...As we discussed in your prior thread I totally understand that Your Aikido Sensei failed. I really do understand your complaints... There are allot of very weak Aikido Instructors who could not fight thier way out of a wet paper bag and have no Martail Awareness and that I can't deny...

Put it simple, put someone who has trained in aikido for five years, against someone who has been training in Kickboxing, MMA, Boxing, BJJ, Krav Maga, Wing Chun, Karate..etc. The outcome would be painful and embaressing. Theres only so much spinning and avoiding they would be able to do until they get smacked in the face. Stop duping yourselves with regards to aikido and self defence people, seriously. For balance etc etc how to walk away from a fight great. But be real with yourselves about it, and more importantly be real with others, new students and such.

Most of this (again for me personally) is not my experiance at all with Aikido...However...I could not agree with you more on the last point and that goes for any Martial Art...The sad fact of the matter is all the Gendai Arts have been diluted over the years. There is just no knowing when you're a rookie what you're getting yourself into is the real deal or not. Sadly with Aikido this is even more evident. I have been in Ventura California now for a month and have visited a few Dojos...
Though they all have thier good points...I have too look hard for the kind of Martial Awareness that Aikido needs... To live up to it's promise as something different and special.... and not just a bunch of folks going less than a quarter speed grabbing wrists with no Martial Intent...

As Shoji Nishio Shihan put it "Sincere Heart though Austure Practice."

That kind of spirit is getting harder and harder to find in the Aikido World I see.

William Hazen

[marlon10]

People are effective not styles. If a Brazilian Jiujitsu stylist gets into a fight with a an untrained fighter using his person style of "no style" and knocks the BJ guy out does that mean his no style is better? No it just means he was better on that day.

Boxing is not neccessarily a better style then any other Martial Art but there aren't many of you guys in Aikido, BJJ, MMA or any other style that I would give a chance to against Mike Tyson in his prime on the street.

Lets put the Aikido effectiveness to rest and agree it's more about the person and not the style. Remember guns and retaliation are factors that not style can guarantee your success against.

[dps]

Aikido always helps me in the fake fights.

David

[cp.medic]

Yeah against my Wife once...LOL..... I was supposed to babysit but got offered a night dive (Scuba) and chose the latter... Oppps.... She was rather offended... (Read Pee'd Off) and attacked me, not wanting to hurt her I moved out of the way, grabbed her wrist into a protected lock, pulled her gently down to the bed (All the while she is screaming about various injuries she was going to perform upon my person) wrapped her in the quilt and ran like hell out of the house, spent the night on my buddies couch... Had to call next morning and ask permission to come home.....
We've been married 22 years so obviously she said yes, but I did pay for my very smooth move... LOL
Cheers.
Doc

[Enrique Antonio Reyes]

Just want to address these two points, if after two years of training im still not going to be able to use Aikido as an effective self defence method then i happily admit it is not for me...

Right on the button Daniel. Props to you...

One-Aiki,

Iking

[Phil Van Treese]

Aikido has saved my life, literally. In Viet Nam, It was invaluable in many situations. I did extractions into North Viet Nam and came back alive thru some hairy situations.
In Desert Storm, I taisabakied perfectly once and not a minute to late as I was almost bayonetted.
In Mogadishu, Somalia (Blackhawk Down), I was on a rescue mission when I was attacked by no less than 6 extremists at once. I survived---they didn't. Yes, Aikido will help you but you have to train as though your life depends on it because someday (hopefully not) it just might have to and you will react the way you have been trained.
I hope this answers your question.

[Aiki Teacher]

I am considering taking Aikido, but I am unsure as to whether it would actually help me if someone where to attack me. Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

Used it to break up a fight between two Jr. High students. One student in an arm lock the other in yonkyo. No other teachers around to help. Neither student landed a punch against me or each other. The yonkyo student was cursing a lot!

[aikilouis]

Yes, Aikido will help you but you have to train as though your life depends on it .

Shinken shobu !

[Ketsan]

Theres only so much spinning and avoiding they would be able to do until they get smacked in the face. Stop duping yourselves with regards to aikido and self defence people, seriously. For balance etc etc how to walk away from a fight great. But be real with yourselves about it, and more importantly be real with others, new students and such.

That tells me you're making the classic Aikido mistake of sticking to form rather than principle.

[Guilty Spark]

Aikido has saved my life, literally. In Viet Nam, It was invaluable in many situations. I did extractions into North Viet Nam and came back alive thru some hairy situations.
In Desert Storm, I taisabakied perfectly once and not a minute to late as I was almost bayonetted.
In Mogadishu, Somalia (Blackhawk Down), I was on a rescue mission when I was attacked by no less than 6 extremists at once. I survived---they didn't. Yes, Aikido will help you but you have to train as though your life depends on it because someday (hopefully not) it just might have to and you will react the way you have been trained.
I hope this answers your question.

Was your Aikido taught through the military at all or was it civi side?

[Aikibu]

Was your Aikido taught through the military at all or was it civi side?

According to his Bio...His Sifu was Pai Mei...The same dude who taught Bill and the Fox Force Five Deadly Female Assasains...

While it is true that Pang Mai thought that all Japanese Teachers were fatheads he tested his opinion severely when fought O.Sensei in a legendary contest at Bulshi Mountain... After five days and nights of furious verbal combat using the deadliest of insults hurled with abandon Pai Mei executed the deadly five step expoding heart technique and O'Sensei countered with the equally deadly electric wrist grab of heavenly destiny...

Both survived and decided to open a Dojo in Iowa in partnership with a another famous cage fighter...A dude named Russ...Easily recognized by his American Flag Parachute Pants...

This explains everything about our new Pals use of Aikido in three wars...:)

William Hazen

[Phil Van Treese]

My aikido in the beginning was from Kenji Tomiki Shihan in Japan. I then was in the military, depending where I was stationed, I would go off base and study. I also studied under Hideo Ohba Shihan and Gozo Shioda Shihan. I had a mixture of in and out of the military for my training but I was fortunate to have gone all over the world and had a chance to work with nothing but the best. Hope this answers your question.

[Aikibu]

My aikido in the beginning was from Kenji Tomiki Shihan in Japan. I then was in the military, depending where I was stationed, I would go off base and study. I also studied under Hideo Ohba Shihan and Gozo Shioda Shihan. I had a mixture of in and out of the military for my training but I was fortunate to have gone all over the world and had a chance to work with nothing but the best. Hope this answers your question.

Very Interesting...Welcome to Aik-Web Perhaps you'll share your experiance in greater detail. :) I spent some time in the service myself and I served with some folks who may have known you.

WIlliam Hazen

[Phil Van Treese]

Sure, I'd be happy to help you out on all types of experiences. Just ask and if I can answer your question(s), I will do the best I can. Take care and talk to you later.

[Guilty Spark]

Hi Phil,

If you don't mind;

...Gozo Shioda Shihan..

What was Gozo Shioda like to train with?
What did you like most about his style of instruction?
What were his pet peevs?

You've used Aikido while conducting military operations I think you've said?
Do you feel Aikido gave you an advantage during those situations where as another martial arts may not have? Or do you think martial arts training is martial arts training.

[Phil Van Treese]

Gozo Shioda Shihan was only about 5'1"--not very tall. His instruction was always centered around taking balance. NOT just physical balance but also psychological and mental balance. If you keep your opponent guessing, the confusion will be his downfall. His Ki was the best ever. Tomiki Shihan's Ki was outstanding but not close to Gozo Shioda's. Being that Gozo Sensei was so small, he made up for it in Ki. I liked that Gozo Sensei was not big on big movements. He viewed all waza as an eye of a hurricane. Smaller the eye, the more powerful the storm and the bigger the eye, the less powerful.
The 2 biggest pet peeves were being late for class and not giving 125% in every class.
I used aikido (and judo) in Viet Nam, Desert Storm and Somalia. Actually did save my life more than once. Fighting with rules is good but fighting without rules and getting 2nd place isn't so good. 1st place or nothing (life or death--1st pl. or nothing). Both shihans have always said---train as if your life depended on it. Thank God I did because that statement came true for me more than once.
I think the aikido gave me an advantage as far as using the opponents attack(s) against himself. Judo gave me the wonderful shime waza (choking techniques) that were useful. Tai sabaki was definitely an advantage---straight line attack and circular defense is soooooooooo true. Training is getting out of it what you put into it. Train, train, train like your life depends on it. You just might save your life or that of another.
I hope this answers your question.

[Josh Astridge]

Hi guys, new member from NZ here.

Been an Aikidoka for about 1 month.

There was once instance where a person who had a problem with me (for sticking up to him for my girlfriend, typical teenage shit).

He ran up to me and barged me so that I'd fall on the concrete and hurt myself badly, luckily i was learning how to properly Ukemi/backward ukemi at the time and managed to pull off a proper breakfall/roll.

I got up and he came at me in a typical boxer stance, one arm extended out slightly further and went to throw a punch.

I entered to him, pushing the punch down (earth) an pushed the extended arm up (heaven) and proceeded to direct my weight foward.

This actually caused him to fall to the ground (I never used to think Aikido would work until I was more skilled) and his right arm was left up. I walked it, grabbed it and guided him onto his belly, and just held him in a pin until he calmed down (i was twisting his arm to the point of pain, but not major pain).

The situation stopped the confrontation and now he doesn't try to mess with me.

I guess we put the 'harm' in harmony right?

I'm just glad I was able to stop this without relying on my knowledge of Tae Kwon Do or Kyokushin-Karate (which i try not to use).

So i don't know if this counts.

Josh
-Aikido Hawke's Bay, New Zealand.

[majin29]

Great post Josh. I am looking to being my Aikido training and it's always good to hear about cases where this art can be applied but not to such a detrimental end as a resolution to a conflict.

I am 40 and the likely hood of actual physical confrontations are low given the area I live in. But it is good to see that Aikido can develop self defense skills even ones where you learn to roll with a push or someone being the aggressor against you.

[Conrad Gus]

Absolutely.

See my real fight post over on this other thread (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=215184#post215184).

[Josh Astridge]

Ok so the same guy as before just confronted me outside of a local dairy, which cooks very delicious Hot Chips.

He had three friends with me this time.
Pushing me around lightly he was calling me a pussy for not wanting to punch or fight him.

I told him I had no interest in fighting, especially him. I also called him pathetic for thinking fighting was the right thing to do.

But, me being a teenage with a huge ego I said to him,
"Look, punch me if you must, but let me tell you now that once that punch is thrown the law will be on my side, and will give me permission to fight back. If you punch me you will be on the ground in two seconds."

He said something like "You're such a liar. Fight me you bitch."
I replied "Maybe I am but do you really want to take the risk? Leave me alone please."

at this point he pushed me up to a wall with a hand on each side of my shirt/shoulder.

Big mistake. I swatted the right hand off and proceeded to grab his left hand with my left, slightly turn his arm and performed a 'chicken wing' maneuver with my right arm. He went clapping to the ground shouting out various swears.

I did not let go and I looked up at his friends who had stepped back now and told them to leave. They did.

I let the 16-year-old guy go, knelt down and said "If you attack me again that's three strikes. And I'll go to the police. Leave me alone and leave my girlfriend alone"

I really hope that he does. He's been bugging her for a month because he likes her.

My neighbourhood is fairly kind, and my school has good order but most of the kids there think they're the best fighters to ever live.

What have video games and Television done to the minds of our teenagers? Violence everywhere.

Hopefully that'll be the last thing I'll post in this thread.

[Guilty Spark]

I hope this answers your question.

Very much so, thank you!

I'm pretty bad for being late to class, would have been awesome to show up for his class late and have him make an example out of me.