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marlon10
01-21-2009, 09:36 AM
I am new to Aikido but I have to say that I can't believe some of the things I read on here. I really enjoy the intelligent and open-minded discussions that go on here for the most part but it's the silly one's that just get in the way and force you to have to dig through all the crap.

For instance the Aikido vs. "insert style here" threads. These are so stupid. I read where if you find yourself faced against a filipino stick fighter you should run.

This is such a stupid topic to even bring up. If you are faced with anyone wielding a weapon you should run if you can. The question is how many fights do most people really get in during the course of their lives, unless you look for fights and as Aikido practitioners we should be doing our best to avoid such situations.

Second what are the chances of being in a fight against a trained stick fighter or anyone seriously dedicated to the Martial Arts. The chances are pretty slim.

Plus the argument is dumb because there are infinite possibilities. If you face an experienced knife fighter who has three black belts what can Aikido do? These are pointless scenarios.

Marc Abrams
01-21-2009, 09:51 AM
Marlon:

Thank You for Sharing!

Marc Abrams

Ron Tisdale
01-21-2009, 10:50 AM
It's good to see a newbie with so much common sense! Welcome.

Best,
Ron

ChrisHein
01-21-2009, 10:52 AM
If your chances of getting in a fight are slim (to which I agree with you) Why train in martial arts at all?

Forget the weapon, if you are going to get into any kind of fight, shouldn't you simply run or walk away?

Why train martial techniques at all? It's unlikely we will get in a fight, and good sense tells us to leave if one brakes out.

We should just stop training in martial methods....
If you want to be completely logical about it.

marlon10
01-21-2009, 11:12 AM
Chris,

You are absolutely right. There would be no reason to train in martial arts, if fighting was your sole purpose to begin training in the first place.

But my purpose for starting Aikido wasn't about fighting. As hokey as this sounds, it's about character development. Aside from the fight skill the Aikido does or does not develop, I want to develop discipline and a sense of self confidence that I don't believe I have at this stage in my life.

I want to develop a level of body coordination as well that can spill over to other parts of my life. I want to say that I have achieved some level of skill in a subject that has been near and dear to my heart for as long as I can remember. I love the Martial Arts, not because I want to fight, but because I want to express. I want to express my spiritual side in a physical form. For me no other style of martial arts fits my demeanor as closely as Aikido does.

So to sum it up, yes I believe that if you practice martial arts for the sole purpose of fighting you are misguided. Eventually you will either get yourself hurt or your feelings hurt.

phitruong
01-21-2009, 11:34 AM
nonsense! (sorry, couldn't help myself :) ) those discussions have lots of good information. aikido practice has two sides: attacker (uke) and defender (nage). now focus on the attacker, how do you propose on dealing with attacks if attackers don't know how to attack? and who know better about the attack, for example, knife attack than knife fighter? who know better about punching and kicking than folks who practiced karate, kungfu and such?

character development is about being honest with oneself and one own practice. can one be honest with one practice if one only deals with fake attacks?

food for thought, heh? mention about food, time for me to find some and be honestly attack such things. :D

JohnSeavitt
01-21-2009, 11:40 AM
... but it's the silly one's that just get in the way and force you to have to dig through all the ...

Yeah, ya hardly ever see that on the internet.

John 'folks keep coming back, though ...'

Aikibu
01-21-2009, 11:59 AM
The sole purpose of the Martial Arts is to fight?

I did not know that. :)

William Hazen

Marc Abrams
01-21-2009, 01:35 PM
Marlon:

You are a new student so people on this site are being kind with you. Chris, for example, was simply being sarcastic.

Look up the definition of "Martial" and then "Arts." Many people study martial arts for a myriad of reasons. If it works for them, good for them. Your position about what Aikido/martial arts should or should not be is simply your own, based upon your life experiences to date. I would kindly suggest that you simply keep a personal log of your beliefs and experiences and see how they may change over your upcoming years of training. Making statements about what you think about things that you really do not know about may hinder your training rather than assist in it. It is good to raise questions that you can explore in your training. That is a vastly different position than trying to create "facts" out of ideas and beliefs.

Marc Abrams

lbb
01-21-2009, 01:53 PM
If your chances of getting in a fight are slim (to which I agree with you) Why train in martial arts at all?

For reasons that have nothing to do with fighting.

marlon10
01-21-2009, 02:23 PM
Marc,

I appreciate the fact that people are being kind to me because I am new. And I will heed your advice and keep a journal of my thoughts and track my evolution. That is definitely a good idea. But I am old enough not to take things to personally and realize that there are more internet warriors then real one's.

I bring these points up because of people like yourself who provide constructive responses to questions posed on the forum. I think that is what the forum should be about.

If people here are training for the sole purpose of becoming an effective fighter, for a fight that may never come, then at the end of this journey what will you have to show for it. My thoughts lean more toward perspective.

I believe that learning to fight is fine if your a professional fighter. But learning to possess this destructive set of skills is pointless if you are truly committed to avoiding violence. It has been my impression that some of the great masters developed and understanding of this. The founder's techniques got "softer",if you will, and less about pure fighting skill.

That's just my thought.

Marc Abrams
01-21-2009, 02:46 PM
I believe that learning to fight is fine if your a professional fighter. But learning to possess this destructive set of skills is pointless if you are truly committed to avoiding violence. It has been my impression that some of the great masters developed and understanding of this. The founder's techniques got "softer",if you will, and less about pure fighting skill.

That's just my thought.

Marlon:

Those "great masters" were people who were professional fighters with an awesome set of destructive skills. It seems that because they reached that level of understanding, their sense of the fragile, precious gift of life became all the more acute. People who know nothing about violence tend to be the ones who get hurt and or make bad decisions based upon wrong assumptions about violence. A perfect example would be looking at the last administration's cabinet officials opinions about whether to start a war with Iraq. The only high ranking person with SUBSTANTIAL combat experience, Collin Powell, was the one person who was most strident against starting that war.

Learning to be peaceful in a safe place tends to be a self-serving delusion that is shattered only when confronted with violence. Learning to be peaceful in a crucible of conflict and violence is a task that many Aikidoka strive to accomplish.

O'Sensei's techniques might have become "softer" as he got older, but they were still pure fighting skills that were controlled at a level that few reach.

Marc Abrams

ChrisHein
01-21-2009, 06:35 PM
Marlon:

Look up the definition of "Martial" and then "Arts." Many people study martial arts for a myriad of reasons. If it works for them, good for them. Your position about what Aikido/martial arts should or should not be is simply your own, based upon your life experiences to date. I would kindly suggest that you simply keep a personal log of your beliefs and experiences and see how they may change over your upcoming years of training. Making statements about what you think about things that you really do not know about may hinder your training rather than assist in it. It is good to raise questions that you can explore in your training. That is a vastly different position than trying to create "facts" out of ideas and beliefs.

Marc Abrams

That's Really sound advice.

Kevin Leavitt
01-21-2009, 06:44 PM
MIlton wrote:

If people here are training for the sole purpose of becoming an effective fighter, for a fight that may never come, then at the end of this journey what will you have to show for it. My thoughts lean more toward perspective.

I believe that learning to fight is fine if your a professional fighter. But learning to possess this destructive set of skills is pointless if you are truly committed to avoiding violence. It has been my impression that some of the great masters developed and understanding of this. The founder's techniques got "softer",if you will, and less about pure fighting skill.

Welcome. I agree that there is much illogic behind X vs Y, I spend alot of time talking and writing about it, and how adopting a methodology specific paradigm will get you in trouble in a fight.

However, I welcome those with those kind of question here, as I think they are a natural part of the growth process in martial arts. What better place do we have to explore and learn about this! Rather here than on the street.

Some of us do have jobs and careers where figthing, or at least preparing to fight is very, very important aspect of our lives.

There is a paradox though, and Mushashi I think has summed it up well for us in the Book of Five Rings.

I think what is specifically important about the philosophical and spiritual side of aikido or aiki-budo is that to understand peace, we must understand violence, or at least the nature of violence, and develop ourselves with the appropriate skills to skillfully deal with violence.

You are correct for most of us, hopefully all of us, those skills will be confined to non-physical means.

More importantly, I think, which is what you have stated is your goal, it is about conquering violence within yourself, your fears etc.

I do believe, that we need to discuss and practice the very physical side of why we study in a very martially relevant way if we expect our budo practice to do us any good.

As such, it requires that we address the very subject that you started this thread about for many people.

It is quite possible that you have transcended the need to answer these questions, and that is a good thing! However, for many we are struggling with it, or we want a deeper understanding of other perspectives or paradigms.

In simply asking the question "how does X do against Y...we open our minds to explore more deeply external factors. The key is though to look past the base reasoning of X vs Y, and find something much deeper than the superfical logic presents!

Oh...also great advice and feedback from Mark and Phi!

marlon10
01-21-2009, 08:46 PM
I appreciate all the posts and I really agree with alot of what you all are saying. I have some great ideas and thoughts to ponder over and I appreciate the points of views.

This is exactly why I love being apart of these forums. As long as one keeps an open mind one can find inspiration from so many origins of thought.

Thanks again for all your opinions and comments, and allowing me to voice mine.

Jason Jarred
01-21-2009, 09:25 PM
I hope I haven't come along too late to contribute. BTW hi I'm a fairly new poster but a huuuuge lurker :D
For the most part I think discussion around Aikido vs <whatever> can be constructive, sure it's frustrating at times (I personally stay away from those threads most of the time) but I'm certain some people find these types of discussions useful for assessing what Aikido might mean for them.
I tend to reflect the sentiments of some of the senior forum members views above - the wrong attitude taken into a fight (a fight that is *unavoidable*) is not an Aikido attitude. What's the wrong attitude for me? Anything involving ego. I won't lay down behind a bush to avoid a fight - for me this analogous to losing your centre during training, but I certainly won't provoke somebody into punching or attacking me.
The clip somebody posted in another thread, with the Capoira vs Boxer, made me laugh (whether it's from a movie or not). This is exactly what I think can happen if we take an egotistical attitude in combination with our Aikido skills into a fight. Our RL opponent will just look at us cross eyed as we're doing a 'technique', then their fist will slam into our head with a most unfortunate certainty.

I believe keep it simple is the best avenue of approach, and dispense with that ego. I know it's repeated verbatim around here, but I've had the fortune (or misfortune?) to have been attacked twice in the past year, and was most grateful for what Aikido had taught me - humility & humble.

Will Prusner
01-22-2009, 02:44 AM
A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men.
-Anonymous

crbateman
01-22-2009, 04:44 AM
Nonsense, although completely subjective, is still useful because it makes you think... even if only to decide if it is really nonsense.

dps
01-22-2009, 07:20 AM
A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men.
-Anonymous

A lot of nonsense is only relished by the posters. - Ancient Chinese saying ( no,.....really it is)

David:)

gdandscompserv
01-22-2009, 11:18 AM
I don't mind a bit-o-nonsense here and there.:D

Michael Douglas
02-01-2009, 05:08 AM
... The question is how many fights do most people really get in during the course of their lives, unless you look for fights and as Aikido practitioners we should be doing our best to avoid such situations.
Hi Marlon.
You should only be doing your best to avoid fights if you -don't- want to be like the founders of aikido, surely? Those guys were scrappers!
So I guess my own comment here makes me realise something : there must be a modern commonly stated aikido philosopy
of avoiding fights. Fair enough. I'll get me coat... :)

Guilty Spark
02-02-2009, 11:43 AM
I read where if you find yourself faced against a filipino stick fighter you should run.

This is such a stupid topic to even bring up. If you are faced with anyone wielding a weapon you should run if you can.

Disagree.
If you turn to run away then
a. You remove your situatonal awareness. Now you have someone intending to hurt you behind you where you cannot see them or defend yourself against them.
b. You're flipping a coin to see who can run faster.

In a high stress situation humans revert to a more primitive part of their brain. Fight or flight. More animal like, agree?
What happens when an excited and aggressive dog faces off against you and you turn your back on it and try to run away? Instinct screams wounded prey, attack.

One of the main reasons someone is going to pull a weapon on you is psychological. The intimidation and fear factor. Puts you on the defensive. They control you. psychological stuff is weird. Someone aiming a pistol at you is more intimidating than a rifle because it's more personal. Doubly so for a knife.

In my opinion the bes thing to do when someone pulls a weapon on you is seize the initive and attack. Step into them, never run away.

By all means employ situational awareness and avoid a fight. But if you find yourself in one 'bring the fight to them'.

Kevin Leavitt
02-02-2009, 03:48 PM
I think it depends on the situation, but actually I tend to agree with Grant in many respects. Especially when you consider "fighting distance" and the ability to close distance.

The "Rule of 21" comes to mind.

The thing is this: Pyschologically we like to think we have a choice or ability to run or avoid a fight. However, the thing with fighting is this, either you are in the fight or you are not! that may or may not have anything to do with your personal preference.

Here is a blog post I did on fighting distance about a month ago.

http://www.budo-warrior.com/?p=103

Guilty Spark
02-09-2009, 05:45 AM
Very good read! Thank you.
May I have your permission to print that and place it up at work here?

Kevin Leavitt
02-09-2009, 10:49 PM
Absolutely Grant!

Jorge Garcia
02-10-2009, 10:05 AM
If your chances of getting in a fight are slim (to which I agree with you) Why train in martial arts at all?

Forget the weapon, if you are going to get into any kind of fight, shouldn't you simply run or walk away?

Why train martial techniques at all? It's unlikely we will get in a fight, and good sense tells us to leave if one brakes out.

We should just stop training in martial methods....
If you want to be completely logical about it.

I find it interesting to note that in his book, Karate-do Kyohan, Gichin Funakoshi says on page 5 that it is "instructors of poor character" that "thoughtlessly place the emphasis of training on the techniques rather than on the spiritual aspects of the "do" and it is the " the misbehavior and poor attitudes of karate students who are learning the art solely as a technique of fighting."

He goes on to talk about those that are encouraged to use their karate in brawls with admonitions such as "You can never improve or polish your techniques without some actual application in fights..." He says that this kind of talk shows a "lack of sense of those who know nothing at all about karate-do." He says that karate is one strike that determines life and death and that this is a rare situation which will possibly be experienced once in a lifetime by an ordinary person and therefore may be used only once or not at all (in your life).

The next paragraph says that he has always told his students that the art does not make the man but it is the man that makes the art. He goes on to say that one should learn karate to become humble, to train the mind to face the world truthfully and to develop oneself. His Secret Principles" on page 234 are the best thing I have ever read for a real martial artist to use in a confrontation. This showed me that the Founder of modern karate was indeed a great man and a lot smarter than most of the sweet people that frequent these forums.

We really do waste a lot of time answering people rather than training and becoming wiser and better people. It is great to ask a question but to ask a question to the world will only give you a world of answers. How then will a person know what to do?

I made my own conclusions about Aikido, fighting and self defense a long time ago and I was so tickled to find out that a man like Funakoshi Sensei had said these things long before I was born. I also like his book on the 21 Guiding Principles of Karate. It sounds like Aikido philosophy.

Best wishes,
Jorge

Aikibu
02-10-2009, 04:10 PM
I find it interesting to note that in his book, Karate-do Kyohan, Gichin Funakoshi says on page 5 that it is "instructors of poor character" that "thoughtlessly place the emphasis of training on the techniques rather than on the spiritual aspects of the "do" and it is the " the misbehavior and poor attitudes of karate students who are learning the art solely as a technique of fighting."

He goes on to talk about those that are encouraged to use their karate in brawls with admonitions such as "You can never improve or polish your techniques without some actual application in fights..." He says that this kind of talk shows a "lack of sense of those who know nothing at all about karate-do." He says that karate is one strike that determines life and death and that this is a rare situation which will possibly be experienced once in a lifetime by an ordinary person and therefore may be used only once or not at all (in your life).

The next paragraph says that he has always told his students that the art does not make the man but it is the man that makes the art. He goes on to say that one should learn karate to become humble, to train the mind to face the world truthfully and to develop oneself. His Secret Principles" on page 234 are the best thing I have ever read for a real martial artist to use in a confrontation. This showed me that the Founder of modern karate was indeed a great man and a lot smarter than most of the sweet people that frequent these forums.

We really do waste a lot of time answering people rather than training and becoming wiser and better people. It is great to ask a question but to ask a question to the world will only give you a world of answers. How then will a person know what to do?

I made my own conclusions about Aikido, fighting and self defense a long time ago and I was so tickled to find out that a man like Funakoshi Sensei had said these things long before I was born. I also like his book on the 21 Guiding Principles of Karate. It sounds like Aikido philosophy.

Best wishes,
Jorge

Great Post Jorge Thanks. :)

William Hazen

Walter Martindale
02-11-2009, 05:08 AM
The sole purpose of the Martial Arts is to fight?

I did not know that. :)

William Hazen

Oh, come on. Just like the sole purpose of a handgun is to kill people...
Ever seen a "free pistol"? For example, the Pardini Free Pistol with Mechanical Trigger (as opposed to electronic trigger)

http://www.pardini.it/weapon/target_pistols-fpm.htm

(yes, I know you've got your sarcasm face on)
W