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Marko Ilic
12-02-2008, 02:09 AM
I was wandering when I saw some yellow belts do some technique. They said that the technique was Iriminage but it looked nothing like Iriminage to me. I can only tell you how its don from Katatetori (right hand grabing right hand). You start by tenkan-ing away and putting your hand on his neck at the same time. And then instead of doing a "clothesline: kind of throw you just pull uke down.
Does anyone know if this is really Iriminage.

Thanks,
Marko

Nafis Zahir
12-02-2008, 03:21 AM
It may be that they call the technique Iriminage even though it's different from what youcall Iriminage.

Amir Krause
12-02-2008, 06:39 AM
Japanese Technique names are not well defined.
With the little I have seen of Japan, different places use the same names for different things and different names for the same things.

It is even worse once you include us foreigners who have no understanding of Japanese, and apply those names...

Amir

Carsten Möllering
12-02-2008, 07:30 AM
Hi,

If I get it right position is not (gyaku hanmi) katate dori but ai hanmi katate dori? (right hand grabs right hand) Many styles use "katate dori" for left hand grabs right hand.

And it is not only tenkan but irimi tenkan? nage does one step forward and then turns, left hand on ukes neck.

And then cuts uke down. (It's not pulling.)

If that is correct, the technique ist called "ushiro kiri otoshi" or aswell "chokusen irimi nage". The third form of irimi nage:

En no irimi: irimi nage with tenkan, irimi nage ura
Sankaku no irimi: steps like in tenchi nage, irimi nage omote
Chokusen no irimi: irimi nage on direct line, ushiro kiri otoshi

Carsten

patf
12-02-2008, 10:35 AM
We do a version which sounds very similar though we call it a Kokyunage variation.
In my understanding an arm must enter towards Uke's head/neck (on the final throw) to be classified as irimi-nage.

Tim Griffiths
12-02-2008, 07:18 PM
I was wandering when I saw some yellow belts do some technique. They said that the technique was Iriminage but it looked nothing like Iriminage to me.

That's normal. When I wander around the mat what the yellow belts are doing doesn't normally look like what they're meant to be doing either :D

In Ki Society dojos there's a quite common form of iriminage similar to the ushiro kiri otoshi that Carsten described - although they'd probably call it something like katate kosadori ushiro irimi kokyunage rather than iriminage.

The iriminage [lit: Entering Throw] name comes from the entering movement of the body to take the balance and make the throw, a 'clothesline' movement isn't needed. Ironically this 'taking the balance with the body' part is often the most neglected.

Train well,

Tim

Marko Ilic
12-03-2008, 01:08 AM
And it is not only tenkan but irimi tenkan? nage does one step forward and then turns, left hand on ukes neck.

Carsten[/QUOTE]

This is the ai hanmi katatetori.we do it like this:first you tenkan to uke's back and put your left hand on your uke's head simultaneously. Next you bring uke's head to your shoulder and then do the clothesline kinda throwing with a step inward.

But this other Iriminage follows the same principles as the one above but instead of doing the clothesline you cut him down. The pin is putting uke's arm on your knee (you're in a half standing position) and pull his arm down like you're gonna break it and choke the uke with the other arm.

Thanks anyway.


P.S. I dunno how to quote.

Janet Rosen
12-03-2008, 10:15 AM
I was taught this as an iriminage variation (you are entering, its an irimi, regardless of the tenkan) and have seen it taught at dojos from various styles.

Flintstone
12-03-2008, 11:05 AM
Isn't it that Irimi Nage is instead a collection of techniques instead of a single one? I mean, all of these are Irimi Nage for me:

* [Shomen] Irimi Nage Omote / Mukae Daoshi: Sankaku Irimi,
* [Shomen] Irimi Nage Ura: En no Irimi,
* Ushiro Kiri Otoshi / Ushiro Kata Otoshi: Chokusen no Irimi,
* Shokumen Irimi Nage / Ura Mukae Daoshi,
* Obi Otoshi,
* Shomen Ate / Ago Ate Nage: Chokusen no Irimi,
* Gedan Ate / Do Gaeshi: Chokusen no Irimi,
* Aiki Otoshi / Sukui Nage,
* Aiki Nage,
* etc...

Most probably I'm wrong, though...

patf
12-03-2008, 11:42 AM
I was taught this as an iriminage variation (you are entering, its an irimi, regardless of the tenkan) and have seen it taught at dojos from various styles.

Surely there are a multitude of kokyunage that involve entering but are not classed as irimi nage. It seems to me that the part of irimi nage that irimi refers to is not the entering, rather the finishing. For example sokumen-irimi nage can be done without the initial entering, from Yokumen strike, nage blends with striking arm while stepping back, bringing uke parallel to nage and breaking balance, and then entering across uke's face with free arm in the form of sai-yu-undo.

Just a thought.

Mark Stokmans
12-03-2008, 12:08 PM
Marko Ilic wrote: But this other Iriminage follows the same principles as the one above but instead of doing the clothesline you cut him down. The pin is putting uke's arm on your knee (you're in a half standing position) and pull his arm down like you're gonna break it and choke the uke with the other arm.

This sounds more like kubijime than irimi nage.

Russ Q
12-03-2008, 03:13 PM
Wouldn't any technique where you enter and throw be classified as irmi nage? It could be kokyu nage too (for example) but generally being called one thing doesn't negate it from also being another....y'know:-).

Russ

Carsten Möllering
12-04-2008, 02:53 AM
The pin is putting uke's arm on your knee (you're in a half standing position) and pull his arm down like you're gonna break it and choke the uke with the other arm.

Ok, you made it clear.

The pin, you describe is the regular finish of every form of irimi nage (if you finish it with a pin) as it is taught in our Aikido Tradition. It is most used in tanto dori, jo dori and tachi dori.
But you can also use it in tachi waza tai jutsu. In suwari waza the position of nage is kneeling, not half standing. And the pin is done on the inner leg.

The technique you decribe is called "ushiro kiri otoshi". We seldom use it from ai hanmi. More often we do it from ushiro katate dori or chudan tsuki.

I cited the three regular forms of irimi nage above. chokusen irimi nage or just irimi nage is not frequently used as name of this technique. It is an elder term. You can find it in books with Shirata Rinjiro (John Stevens).

In our aikido there is one form of this technique where it is not called ushiro kiri otoshi but irimi nage. You can see it in this video - which doesn't show our line of aikido but this form of irimi nage - at 0:35. (http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=asp2bVS-a4A)

Carsten

mickeygelum
12-04-2008, 06:29 AM
Greetings,

Ushiro Kubi Gatame is what I have known it to be called.

Train well,

Mickey

Marko Ilic
12-04-2008, 03:16 PM
I did a similar(same) technique now in suwari-waza from ryotetori. It starts by nage twisting (?) his hands and doing a tenchinage kind of throwing. The pin is to put one arm on your knee (more exactly one elbow) and leaning on the uke's other shoulder. Is this THE TECHNIQUE ?

Thank you

Peter Bowyer
12-15-2008, 04:00 PM
The way I understand it is that Iriminage simply means 'entering throw' so regardless how uke is thrown, you still entered (irimi) and threw (nage). It's a variation.

Also, wouldn't right hand grabbing right hand be kosadori (crosshand grab)?

Flintstone
12-15-2008, 07:23 PM
Also, wouldn't right hand grabbing right hand be kosadori (crosshand grab)?
Again, it depends on your school. We will say dosokutedori.