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GeneC
11-28-2008, 09:50 PM
Hello,could someone fluent in Nihongo tell me how a Nipponji would say,"In the stillness, between breathing in and breathing out, can one capture Yin and Yang in perfect harmony."?

TIA

GeneC

Carl Thompson
11-29-2008, 02:03 AM
It's been a while since I got corrected for my Japanese so let's give it a go...

「不動の境地にある時、呼吸と呼吸の間に人は陰陽の完璧な調和を捕らえることができますか?」

"Fudo no kyochi ni aru toki, kokyu to kokyu no aida ni hito wa inyo no kampeki-na chowa o toraeru-koto ga dekimasu-ka?"

... might be close to what you are trying to express.

Carl

GeneC
11-29-2008, 09:02 AM
Thanks so much. No offense, but the quote itself isn't a question. I was asking if someone could translate. Sorry for the confusion. Btw, "kokyu to kokyu"? Isn't kokyu= hip? Doesn't Aikidoka interpret Chi or ki to be breath? I have the "Human Japanese" translator and alot of those words are not recognizable to it.

Voitokas
11-29-2008, 03:18 PM
"kokyu to kokyu"? Isn't kokyu= hip? "kokyuu" is "breath", so Carl has it "between two breaths". Maybe "kokyuu no naka ni" , "in the middle of a breath", would be more like what the sage was trying to say. My in-house translator (she hates it when I call her that!) says that she would say it: 不動の境地にある時のみ、呼吸の中に、完璧な調和における陰陽をとらえることができる。
"fudou no kyouchi ni aru toki nomi, kokyuu no naka ni, kampeki na chouwa ni okeru inyou wo toraeru koto ga dekiru."
Or did you mean you wanted an exegesis, like a translation from the English translation of the text into "what the heck does that really mean?!" In that case, who knows?:)

Voitokas
11-29-2008, 03:26 PM
"Hip" is "koshi" ("small of the back") when we talk about koshinage in aikido, or "shiri" ("butt") when we complain about how big our hips are getting as we get older, or "kotsuban" ("pelvis") when my mother says "she's got good child-bearing hips". ;)

GeneC
11-29-2008, 07:53 PM
"kokyuu" is "breath", so Carl has it "between two breaths". Maybe "kokyuu no naka ni" , "in the middle of a breath", would be more like what the sage was trying to say. My in-house translator (she hates it when I call her that!) says that she would say it: 不動の境地にある時のみ、呼吸の中に、完璧な調和における陰陽をとらえることができる。
"fudou no kyouchi ni aru toki nomi, kokyuu no naka ni, kampeki na chouwa ni okeru inyou wo toraeru koto ga dekiru."
Or did you mean you wanted an exegesis, like a translation from the English translation of the text into "what the heck does that really mean?!" In that case, who knows?:)

Thankyou for clearing that up for me. Yes, I think 'in the middle of a breath' is closer to what's meant. Also, I'd like to know 'what it really means', but I'm afraid it's one of those things that the meaning is simple (meaning it means just what it says),but it takes a lifetime to actually do it.
To tell you the truth (aside from th fact that that is now my motto, my mantra and my lifetime goal from now on), I's trying to see if I could get it down to something I could put on a t-shirt (or a tattoo).

raul rodrigo
11-29-2008, 09:10 PM
Well if there was someone in Aikiweb who did know what that quotation meant, his only appropriate Taoist response to your question would be to send you a blank email.

Carl Thompson
11-30-2008, 12:20 AM
No offense, but the quote itself isn't a question.


None taken. The way you quoted it looks like a question though :)

,"In the stillness, between breathing in and breathing out, can one capture Yin and Yang in perfect harmony."?


Just one other point...

Maybe "kokyuu no naka ni" , "in the middle of a breath", would be more like what the sage was trying to say.

呼吸の中にcould be “in the middle of a breath” as in just exhaling or inhaling. Kokyu is breathing in and out, so I had it as in the middle of one breath and another to get a similar feel in English.

Maybe if you made this 呼吸の間にkokyu no aida ni ?

Voitokas
11-30-2008, 06:06 AM
呼吸の中にcould be "in the middle of a breath" as in just exhaling or inhaling. Kokyu is breathing in and out, so I had it as in the middle of one breath and another to get a similar feel in English.

Maybe if you made this 呼吸の間にkokyu no aida ni ?Yeah, I see what you mean, Carl; "kokyu no naka ni" could be in the middle of exhaling or inhaling. "Kokyu no aida ni" seems a little weird, though, too, because I always think of "aida ni" as defining the space between two things. Maybe it gives it that properly frustrating taoist inscrutability! Hmmm.. I'm leaning back to your original "kokyu to kokyu no aida ni" (between breath and breath). I guess it's hard to say without knowing if the original was supposed to convey the inevitability of the next breath, the transient nature of the moment, the absolute silence when the only person in the stillness is not making a sound, or what.
Well if there was someone in Aikiweb who did know what that quotation meant, his only appropriate Taoist response to your question would be to send you a blank email.trying to see if I could get it down to something I could put on a t-shirt (or a tattoo)
I think that Raul is right, and the best expression of your new life theme would be to wear a blank t-shirt. And I would definitely advise skipping the tattoo!

GeneC
11-30-2008, 08:31 AM
Well if there was someone in Aikiweb who did know what that quotation meant, his only appropriate Taoist response to your question would be to send you a blank email.

Ahhh,but a blank email is only half the equaton. The point of emptiness is to be filled with (the understanding of) Tao. I think I understand what it means( at least,I'm pretty sure)- that if one wants to capture the perfect balance between Yin and Yang, you'll find it at the still point, between breathing in and breathing out. I believe that's where ki lives. The portal to the energy of the Universe, or the (electrical) outlet ( to plug into), if you prefer.

Sumimasen, I'm simply looking for an accurate translation to a simple concept ( and to see what fellow Aikidokas' opinions are). kioskete ne.

GeneC
11-30-2008, 08:50 AM
None taken. The way you quoted it looks like a question though :) "All beings support Yin and embrace Yang, yet, only at the still, between breathing in and breathing out, can one capture these two in perfect harmony."?

Ahh, but it's taken out of context....."Hello,could someone fluent in Nihongo tell me how a Nipponji would say,".....?

呼吸の中にcould be "in the middle of a breath" as in just exhaling or inhaling. Kokyu is breathing in and out, so I had it as in the middle of one breath and another to get a similar feel in English

Sumimsen, but it's more specific than that. In between Kokyus would be the wrong place, it's in between a single Kokyu. How'd you say that in Nihongo? Also, isn't there a single word in Nihongo that describes perfect balance of Yin and Yang? I'm looking for that word and the word for "in between a single breath".

GeneC
11-30-2008, 09:14 AM
Yeah, I see what you mean, Carl; "kokyu no naka ni" could be in the middle of exhaling or inhaling. "Kokyu no aida ni" seems a little weird, though, too, because I always think of "aida ni" as defining the space between two things. Maybe it gives it that properly frustrating taoist inscrutability!

Hmm, I think "kokyu no aida ni" would accurately describe "the space between breathing in and breathing out".

Maybe it gives that properly frustrating Taoist inscrutibility.Hmmm.. I'm leaning back to your original "kokyu to kokyu no aida ni" (between breath and breath). I guess it's hard to say without knowing if the original was supposed to convey the inevitability of the next breath, the transient nature of the moment, the absolute silence when the only person in the stillness is not making a sound, or what.

I'm not findng Taoism frustrating at all. I'm seeing complex concepts being over-simplfied. This guy describes things that took a lifetme to realize, but words it like it'd be easiest thing in the world to do. I do believe it directly relates to Aikido.

I'd like to relate a relevant story.....I used to rock climb out in Joshua Tree when I was stationed at 29 palms. One time my climbing buddy( actually my best friend from highschool and we joined the Marine Corp together) and I were climbing some huge boulders until nightfall. We decided to stay there and do some star gazing. The stars were from horizon to horizon. Billions and billions of them. I could look out and see stars and planets and Galaxies. I could see into and thru the Milky Way. I could actually see the Earth rotating. I felt like I was right out there in outerspace. I actually panicked for a moment, 'cause I thought I was going to be sucked up into outerspace. At that moment I felt the power of the Universe! I felt it flowing thru me( more accurately , I was in bathed in it) Was it ki? I wholeheartedly believe it was. Now, IMO, the trick is to be able to 'channel' that feeling (energy) at will and I believe I've found where to find it..

raul rodrigo
11-30-2008, 04:52 PM
I have a little understanding of the Tao te ching, I suppose, and it does relate to aikido. But what of it? When it says "soft overcomes hard," it doesn't matter how good an exegesis I can do on those words. (My AB degree was in philosophy, so I can do a pretty good tap dance if I wanted to.) What matters is if and how that understanding is expressed in my movement, if in fact my moving softly, without ego, without the intent of winning, can in fact overcome an uke being very stiff and strong.

For instance, the Hombu teacher Seishiro Endo, 8th dan, refers a good deal to the Tao te ching in his interviews as an inspiration for his aikido training. He said: Kano Jigoro named judo and took as a key phrase, "Softness overcomes hardness," based on Lao-tzu's 36th text, which states, "Soft and weak defeats hard and strong." "Soft and weak" means soft and supple. When one is in such a state one can feel ki, match the partner's ki, and fall into a state of riding the flow of ki. From there one becomes able to move in a "mu-i-shi-zen" manner. On the other hand, "hard and strong" denotes a rigid and unyielding state, in which one can move only with the ego fully exposed. Based on these ideas, in seeking Tao, I now have as a major goal to practice softly in such a way that I rid myself of egotistical consciousness."

But words will always fail to express something as ineffable as the Tao. What could really help is seeing a video of Endo, or infinitely better, taking ukemi from Endo himself, for someone to see/feel just how the principle "soft overcomes hard" is expressed in aikido movement.

GeneC
11-30-2008, 04:59 PM
Sumimasen, I'm not looking for an 'exegesis', just a simple way to say it in Japanese.` Really, it's not that big of a deal.

Carl Thompson
12-01-2008, 02:26 AM
Ahh, but it's taken out of context....."Hello,could someone fluent in Nihongo tell me how a Nipponji would say,".....?

I see where you're coming from, but the part within the quotation marks should be the actual quotation, which doesn't need to be modified to indicate reported speech.

Hello,could someone fluent in Nihongo tell me how a Nipponji would say,"In the stillness, between breathing in and breathing out, can one capture Yin and Yang in perfect harmony."

Judging by the difference between the quote in your new signature and this one, I think you just needed to change the word-order in the original:

"In the stillness, between breathing in and breathing out, one can capture Yin and Yang in perfect harmony."

To make the same change to the Japanese just drop the ka at the end.

As for kokyu, you seem to have reignited discussion elsewhere on the forum. The quote appears to be talking about the normal physical action of breathing. Inhaling (breathing in) is su, exhaling (breathing out) is haku. There is a point at either end of these where one changes to the other. That same situation is expressed by "between a breath and a breath" in Japanese just as it does less eloquently so in English. I chose that because it sounds better in the Japanese, since su can also mean ‘suck' and haku also means ‘throw up'. :yuck:

In between Kokyus would be the wrong place, it's in between a single Kokyu. How'd you say that in Nihongo?

Sorry to clamp down on the grammar again but how can you be between a single thing? It doesn't work in English or Japanese. I appreciate how much this quote means to you so please take my contributions as an honest attempt to help you get it right .

:)

(okay, it's also part of my own nihongo-iiyuwaza practice)

All the best

Carl

Demetrio Cereijo
12-01-2008, 07:53 AM
Clarence,

Maybe you should provide the original chinese text.

GeneC
12-01-2008, 08:02 AM
I would if I knew how to transfer it to here.

Demetrio Cereijo
12-01-2008, 08:26 AM
It seems to be from Lao Tse.... try here:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Laozi_(Wikisource_translation)#Chapter_42

GeneC
12-01-2008, 08:42 AM
Well his name is Lao Tsu and the name of the book is "Tao Te Ching". The best I can do now is to say in Chinese, it's "Wu fu Yin erh pao Yang ch'ung ch'i yi wei ho."

GeneC
12-01-2008, 08:43 AM
Judging by the difference between the quote in your new signature and this one, I think you just needed to change the word-order in the original:

Word order? That to me means ,swapping around the subject and predicate, verb or adjective (which is what one does in Japanese). No word order has been harmed in making this thread. A quote is all inclusive and self contained, anything that happens outside the quotation marks has no bearing on the quote itself, nor changes it in any way. Condensing a sentence with commas does not change the structure (or the word order) at all.

Sorry to clamp down on the grammar again but how can you be between a single thing? It doesn't work in English or Japanese.

??? Easy, when that 'single thing' is actually two or more actions. I don't know what you mean that it doesn't work in English (or Nihongo): in between, in the middle of, simultaneously, et al.

appreciate how much this quote means to you so please take my contributions as an honest attempt to help you get it right .

Sir, I REALLY do appreciate your effort and appreciate your willingness to help me with this, but don't be offended if I question your interpretation. I too would like to be accurate. Sumimasen.

GeneC
12-01-2008, 08:53 AM
What about "In yo o ai ko"?

Carl Thompson
12-02-2008, 03:24 AM
Word order? That to me means ,swapping around the subject and predicate, verb or adjective (which is what one does in Japanese). No word order has been harmed in making this thread. A quote is all inclusive and self contained, anything that happens outside the quotation marks has no bearing on the quote itself, nor changes it in any way. Condensing a sentence with commas does not change the structure (or the word order) at all.

Forgive me. By word order, I just meant "order of words". The ordering of "can one" and "one can" in the original quote compared to the later one, to me at least makes the difference between a question and a statement.

As for "between": in my case I always thought it was different in function from "in the middle of" since it denotes two or more things or actions. You can be in the middle of one action, but not between one. One thing actually being two or more actions (while still being one thing) is perhaps too Taoist for my brain to cope with in this instance.

Maybe just get the original in Japanese and find the relevant section there. It appears to be out of print but you might still find an old copy via Amazon: 老子道徳経 (http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E8%80%81%E5%AD%90%E9%81%93%E5%BE%B3%E7%B5%8C-1978%E5%B9%B4-%E5%8E%9F%E8%A3%85%E5%BD%B1%E5%8D%B0%E5%8F%A4%E5%85%B8%E7%B1%8D%E8%A6%86%E8%A3%B D%E5%8F%A2%E5%88%8A-%E6%B2%B3%E4%B8%8A%E5%85%AC/dp/B000J8CEUC/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228206640&sr=1-3)

GeneC
12-02-2008, 10:12 AM
Forgive me. By word order, I just meant "order of words". The ordering of "can one" and "one can" in the original quote compared to the later one, to me at least makes the difference between a question and a statement.

The original quote says, "All beings support Yin and embrace Yang, yet, only in the still point, between breathing in and breathing out, can one capture these two in perfect harmony." I condensed it to say,"in the stillness, between...,can one..." as does my sig. I'm really sorry for the mixup.

....... You can be in the middle of one action, but not between one. One thing actually being two or more actions (while still being one thing) is perhaps too Taoist for my brain to cope with in this instance.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but in that context, 'in the middle of' and 'between' means exactly the same thing. Luckily, in this case, we ARE talking about an action that is really two actions and it IS talking specifically about the stillness between those two actions.

Most actions require at least two 'sub' actions. Say, throwing a ball (or a person, or a punch/kick/pin/joint lock, etc)- the wind-up and the actual throw. Now, one could "be" between the wind-up , the throw, or the stillness between the wind-up and the throw (if you're the Nage) or (if you're the Uke) 'come between' ( stop) the windup, 'come between' (stop) the actual throw or 'come between ' "at the moment of stillness, between the wind up and the throw.

So, what about "In yo o ai ko"? Isn't that saying the same thing as the quote?

Ethan Weisgard
12-03-2008, 01:36 AM
Hello all,

How about su-iki (inhalation) 吸う息 and haku-iki (exhalation) 吐く息 to specify a bit more. Carl mentioned that just using su and haku doesn't quite sound right as stand-alone words. I know some of the old Sensei use these terms.
And I would also recommend staying away from the ink!

In aiki,

Ethan Weisgard

GeneC
12-03-2008, 08:58 AM
Well, I have some nasty scars from my wrist to my armpit from a bad accident with a big piece of glass, so I'm considering covering them up, but I'm afraid the quote is too much writing. I'll probably go with a dragon.

Kent Enfield
12-03-2008, 06:04 PM
Just to be clear, you're asking for a translation into Japanese of a paraphrase of an English translation of the Chinese original and people are concerned about accuracy? If accuracy is important, you want to go straight from the original to the target language, preferably done by someone who is native in the target language and fluent in the original and knowledgeable of the context.

GeneC
12-03-2008, 07:00 PM
This really is not a big deal. I really didn't think it'd be this much of a problem and it's beginning to feel like beating a dead horse, so I'd just as soon drop this. I've got it in English and I've got it in Chinese, so that's good enough. Thanks all.

Erick Mead
01-05-2009, 09:10 AM
Yeah, I see what you mean, Carl; "kokyu no naka ni" could be in the middle of exhaling or inhaling. "Kokyu no aida ni" seems a little weird, though, too, because I always think of "aida ni" as defining the space between two things. Of the two, I would default, if the context is aikido, to "kokyu no naka ni" as it relates directly to the founders' vision of the importance of Ame no Mi-naka-nushi no Kami -- Master of the Center-Heaven. Abe Sensei describes this kami as "root of breath" and in an interview on this topic has the following:

In a case of Aikido, there are invisible heart and breathe there. And, if one trains the method of
breathing mainly by oneself, one's own Aikido will be established. The way of training of body is
depend on where one places Minakanushi. It means that heart, breathe, and body should be
united and, when one practices, heart, breathe, and body must be located at the center.
"Exhale, stop breathing, inhale, hold breathing", each position of breathing method is the
location of Minakanushi. The technique is changed by your decision of which one is main: Is
inhale main?, is holding breath main?, is exhale main?, or is stopping breathing main? The
choice can be made unconsciously by training. Therefore, the Aikido will be Aikido with
harmony.
In a home, Minakanushi is different when the husband is main and when the wife is main. The
elements of Minakanushi are what something main (sic) will never be fixed. The center moves
around, but it is never fixed.
The wife is Minakanushi until preparing breakfast in the morning. While having meal, the
husband is Minakanushi. After the husband went work, the wife becomes Minakanushi. Just
like that, Minakanushi never be fixed.
Minakanushi of "Kojiki" teaches us to get it and know it.

Ethan Weisgard
01-17-2009, 09:21 AM
Well, I have some nasty scars from my wrist to my armpit from a bad accident with a big piece of glass, so I'm considering covering them up, but I'm afraid the quote is too much writing. I'll probably go with a dragon.

Dear Clarence,

I would just like to mention that if you plan on spending time in Japan, tattoos are still almost only worn by yakuza. The rock'n'roll crowd is starting to sport them now as well, but tattoos are highly stigmatized in Japanese society. Many swimming pools, onsen (hot spring baths) and sento (traditional Japanese hot spring bath houses)have a no-tattoo policy. Not only for your own sake, but also for the sake of the Japanese people who you in the future might be befriending will be put in trying situations. Please consider this.

In aiki,

Ethan Weisgard