DEFENCE AGAINST KICKS

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[samurai_x]

Is it taught only w/ senior students ?
How come it's very seldom that u see them during Demo's ?
Do Aikido really include it in their defence?
If it's included , do we deal w/ it in the same manner w/ the empty hand attacks. Still going w/ the flow no Force against Force or do we use Blocks semilar to other Arts ?

[chillzATL]

Some styles only teach kick defense at higher ranks some teach it from the beginning. Can't say why it's seldom seen in demos, I guess that's up to the sensei giving the demo. How the technique is applied depends on the situation really. yes, the majority of the kick defenses I've seen flow with the attack, not against it. Wouldn't be aikido otherwise.

[Aiki1]

There are kick defenses in Aikido, but they aren't necessarily in the "mainstream" syllabus, and not everyone knows them, agrees on them, or feels they're necessary. One big thing is that the ukemi is hard, even dangerous because the uke is usually left on one foot for the throw, so you have to be pretty prepared and pretty good at taking falls to practice those defenses. And yes, they are (or should be) similar to other Aikido techniques, not blocking etc.

[Mike Collins]

Fact is, kicks seldom work. With the exception of a really good kicker, doing a low kick, kicks are simply too easy to see coming, and therefor defense is a relatively simple thing.

All those kickers, please don't jump all over this post, I'm not saying don't kick, only that very few people can be effective doing kicks in actual combat.

[akiy]

I think one of the biggest reasons why we don't see many defenses against kicks being practiced in aikido is that most people who practice aikido do not know how to kick properly. It's hard to practice something or demonstrate it well when no one knows how to do it...

Also, as Larry mentioned, the ukemi from kicks can be pretty tough as they usually involve a breakfall from a one-legged position.

And, as one of my first aikido teachers said, the only time he'd kick someone higher than their waist would be if they were lying on the ground. I tend to agree.

-- Jun

[Erik]

To throw a reverse perspective on the matter. I was talking to a guy who studied Tae Kwon Do (maybe a year or so) and he explained to me that he was told that you were to never catch the kick. The response he was taught involved a whirly-gig move where you used the other leg to kick your attacker. I never quite got the logic of that as I'll take my 2 legs over their one anytime of the day. And that whirlygig, methinks it lands you on your head but that's just my guess as I have no plans to formally test that in the near future.

Rather amazing the lengths people will go to in order to maintain their world view.

Fact is, kicks seldom work. With the exception of a really good kicker, doing a low kick, kicks are simply too easy to see coming, and therefor defense is a relatively simple thing.

Catch a UFC match (or whatever it is these days) or a kickboxing match and see how many kicks land. Hell in kickboxing they used to require 8 kicks but I'd bet the knockout ratio is something like 10 to 1 punches over kicks. The other thing to watch is how many times the kicker falls while trying to kick. You see them falling in competitive matches fairly regularly. How often do boxers fall without help?

[Russ]

I remember going to a seminar about three years ago in which Hiroshi Ikeda Sensei was instructing. At the end of last class he offered to answer questions and there was a yudansha from the midwest (big, strong and severe!) who asked why we don't deal with real punches and kicks at seminars. How would you (Ikeda Sensei) deal with those? Ikeda Sensei said "It's the same" and looked at the guy to see if that answered it or if he had further questions. This guy wanted to see it work so Ikeda Sensei obliged. Uke came in with a fast, right cross and Sensei did one of the quickest, smoothest ikkyo omotes I've ever witnessed. My impression was that this guy didn't believe it because it was so smooth. Sensei did it again, flawless, uke goes straight down very fast. He did not demonstrate for a kick (I think the uke was very relieved about that.)

I guess the point is the principles are the same, the execution perhaps involves a smaller circle and a much finer sense of timing. IMHO.

Russ

[Mike Collins]

That is both the best and the worst story I've ever read.

Best because it validates my belief that this stuff will work as taught.

Worst cause it makes it clear how far I gotta go to get where I hope I'm going.

[samurai_x]

I think i agree on all of u guys have to say, but i still have this concern regarding kicks. Dont u think if it's not that regularly practised ,i mean the Defence Against Kicks. Dont u think
that when time comes when u encounter a kicker the Aikido student might have some difficulty dealing w/ it ? Coz the
student is not familiar w/ such form of attack. And is it ok to teach kicks to Aikido students so they will be more familiar to it ? But just below the belt kicks they could be very good atemi.

[Erik]

samurai_x wrote:I think i agree on all of u guys have to say, but i still have this concern regarding kicks. Dont u think if it's not that regularly practised ,i mean the Defence Against Kicks. Dont u think that when time comes when u encounter a kicker the Aikido student might have some difficulty dealing w/ it ? Coz the student is not familiar w/ such form of attack. And is it ok to teach kicks to Aikido students so they will be more familiar to it ? But just below the belt kicks they could be very good atemi.

It's hard to argue with this. The point I was trying to make is that they aren't as terrifying as they seem. Although I admit that I flinch on them. As you say not enough practice. I just don't think they are very effective overall.

Your comment on learning kicks as atemi is very true. I can kick just a teeny tiny bit mostly a right front kick (actually it isn't that terrible and my left could kick you in the head but probably not hurt you) and you can get people to come out of their hakama with it. Actually, you don't even have to extend the leg. You just have to put a lot of energy in it. They make for great atemi.

[chillzATL]

samurai_x wrote:
I think i agree on all of u guys have to say, but i still have this concern regarding kicks. Dont u think if it's not that regularly practised ,i mean the Defence Against Kicks. Dont u think
that when time comes when u encounter a kicker the Aikido student might have some difficulty dealing w/ it ? Coz the
student is not familiar w/ such form of attack. And is it ok to teach kicks to Aikido students so they will be more familiar to it ? But just below the belt kicks they could be very good atemi.

It's a matter of perspective. We've practiced them before, but it's not a regular thing. It's one of those things that, IMO, after you spend a little time on the mat, you start to envision your reactions to various attacks that aren't the normal attacks you get during your waza. Just take those things and test them out before and after class with someone. Go slowly, see what works for you. If none of it does, ask your sensei, get it clarified. But as many have said previously, kicks in a real fight, are very uncommon.

[BC]

Regarding the use of kicks as atemi, I think that takes away one of the important principles/advantages of aikido - that of good balance. The use of kicks as a form of fighting can be effective, but I don't think aikido is really about fighting, is it? Also, kicking atemi can have the effect of disrupting your ability to move (by picking one of your feet up off of the ground) in a free and flowing manner. But I'm biased, since I previously practiced a martial art which did utilize kicks, but was still probably mostly arms (60% arms, 40% feet and never kicks higher than the waist area).

I remember from that art it being easier to defend against kicks as long as you properly managed your distance to your opponent (they can't touch you if you're out of range, obviously), and entered to their front or back with a counter arm attack. There is almost always a specific moment when a kicker is vulnerable if their kick doesn't land on you, I think even more so than with a hand attack. I guess the key then is learning to recognize that moment and act on it. IMHO

-BC

[Edited by BC on July 28, 2000 at 08:49am]

[Ponta]

I just wanted to say that using kicks as atemi could be quite nice as a training method. I started practice wushu besides of aikido for about one year ago, and I must say my balance and movement have become much better since then, through the view of aikido. Most credits should go to the extensive kicking, were you really need balance and quick foot movements.

[Erik]

BC wrote:Also, kicking atemi can have the effect of disrupting your ability to move (by picking one of your feet up off of the ground) in a free and flowing manner.

Actually, you really don't have to bring the foot off the ground, at least not very much. If you time it right the atemi comes from the hip and the foot acts as a focus for taking the mind. It's almost like a feint, and it focuses on projecting the sense of strike rather than actually striking. It can be very effective when done with energy.

I got this from a former instructor who reveled in it. Of course he was a big guy and very believable.

[Shouri (Steve)]

Several of the students in our Aikido class also take karate. Me, personally, I do not because I wish to keep my Aikido pure. However, during randori or while showing a new technique, one of these students will often attack with a kick (thanks to karate). Here is how I have defended against these kicks, though I am sure there are other and better ways (not being there would be the best).

When uki kicks with his/her right leg, aiming for say my hips or ribs, I will step toward uki with my left foot so that contact with the leg comes at the thigh and out from center (less leverage, less power from the kick). I grab around the thigh near the knee with my left hand/arm. I then swing my right foot to the inside of uki's left foot, bringing my body next to uki's, while pulling backwards on uki's now-suspended right leg. At this point you could either use a strike (oizuki, menuchi or chudanzuki) or a hold (I prefer to use mune dori so that I can ease uki to the ground). So, as I am pulling backward with my left hand, my body is pushing uki in the opposite direction and my right hand is pushing down on uki. Guess what happens? You can also kick outward with your right foot on uki's left foot (the only one still on the mat), but I find that this causes balance problems for me and is unsafe for uki.

Well, I am sure there are other, better ways of doing this. But this works pretty well for me.

Aikyou,

-Shouri

[Sid]

Concerning kicks as atemi -

I asked my sensei about it, and besides for telling me about not unbalancing oneself, he also said soemthing to the effect of someones mind not being in their leg( or where you kick them
) but in their head - he said an atmei to the face is more effective. What do you think?

sid

[akiy]

People in aikido are much more used to people trying to hit them in the face. Most of them do not expect a kick from uke so it works pretty well in my experience.

I usually only use kicks if uke is being a "butthead" and just clamping on to try to freeze me out by grabbing. Usually if this happens, they're just standing there right in front of me...

-- Jun

[BC]

Good tip Jun. I might have to try that tonight if my partner tries to freeze me in a ryotetori.

I have a question. Does stepping on uke's foot count as an atemi kick? Because if yes, then I'm doing that fairly frequently with my big size 11.5 feet.

-BC

[E.J. Nella]

Great discussion! I have taken Savate (French Kick-Boxing) and Jeet Kune Do (Bruce Lee's Martial Art) to address the question of "How does someone who knows how to punch, punch?" and "How does someone who know how to kick, kick?". I also wished to learn how to punch and kick so I could teach others how to punch and kick, so I could learn how to defend myself from punches and kicks with someone that can take Aikido Ukemi. I am still learning and am really enjoying seeing how other Martial Arts are taught and reinforcing why I love Aikido so much. But I digress.

I am still in this process so am still working on what to do when kicked as an Aikidoist, but I wished to share an experience I had using a kick as an Atemi. I was doing Ikkyo Ura and found myself a little behind Uke and I was not getting his balance. Well, from out of nowhere I gave a weak kick with my big toe to his hip and man, you should have felt the jolt that little touch made! It was as much surprise as anything else, I mean I couldn't kick too hard because it would have hurt my toe more than his hip. Well, once his energy had been disrupted I was able to finish a safe Ikkyo Ura.

I guess to sum up, if both our hands are busy, and a little energy disruption is required, why not go downstairs as long as we are safe and maintain our balance?

[George S. Ledyard]

Although we do a repetoire of moves for defense against kicks, the techniques are really jsut for practice. From the martial point of view no one is really going to kick above the waist, it's too risky. The only real technique against kicks when you are in combat is to enter directly and jam the kick. If you stay out at kicking range then the attacker has the ability to kick and then follow it up with hands, then transition to knees and elbows. If you enter directly into the kick it jams it, puts you at the punching range that allows you to elicit a defensive move from the attacker rather than visa versa. Then you can use that defensive movement to establish a lock for a control technique if appropriate.

I had occasion to go over this issue with a friend of mine who is an 8th Dan in Hapkido. Basically he said you need to have a good connection with the opponent so that the instant he shifts to commit to the kick you move straight in. It is a simple concept that is very difficult to do if you have a skilled opponent.

Essentially all of our fancy kick defenses are in the same league with weapons takeaways. We study them but if we actually had a situation in which we were able to execute one, it was because the attacker wasn't skilled and made a mistake.

[AikiTom]

Sid wrote:
Concerning kicks as atemi -

I asked my sensei about it, and besides for telling me about not unbalancing oneself, he also said soemthing to the effect of someones mind not being in their leg( or where you kick them
) but in their head - he said an atmei to the face is more effective. What do you think?

sid

Sid, I don't agree. I think Jun's comments sum it up pretty well.

My sensei often says, "The mind leads the body, so lead their mind and their body follows," which is I like.
If uke is firmly rooted and you do atemi to the head, it may be parried or block - then what? That's why I would disagree.

[Keith]

Check out Saotome Sensei's video "The Principles of Aikido". In the intro segment, he enters and turns for iriminage with one uke, and sticks his foot in the face of another to hold him at bay. Looked like a kick to me.

Keith Engle

[Aiki1]

Anyone with experience in at least real-world fighting, or, well, Brazilian JJ, for instance, knows that high kicks can get you taken down in a second. That isn't to say that in certain situations they aren't effective - they can be. I knew a Taekwondo fellow who got attacked in an alley by three or four guys, can't remember, and took them all out quite well. Ok... But these days, to rely on them might not be prudent. That being said, I have seen that video with the "face-kick atemi" and frankly, well, I'll just say that I personally wouldn't risk it. That being said, I do know some Aikido people who might use a low kick or touch as a distraction, and that can work if you subscribe to that approach.

Also, something to remember in Aikido - it's somewhat important Not to become the "attacker" such that the other person could then become the "nage" and reverse the entire situation. That's one reason atemi is tricky when the other person is trained.

[djleyva]

Hi guys. I wouldn't be so quick to blow off the effectivness of kicks as many non kickers usually do. Korean martial arts have lots of kicking techniques due to the influence of a native korean art called tae kyon which consists of nothing but kicking. I doubt that kicking would be such a huge part of the korean martial culture if it didn't work. If you look at the tragic history of korea, I doubt that they would seriously embrace any art that didn't really work.

[samurai_x]

I agree w/ all of u guys have to say, but I still think one way of defending our selves as AIKIDO practitioners from kicks specially from the ones that r very good at it.Is to learn how to deliver a kick coz u have to be familiar w/ the kick to be able to understand and device a proper way to defend it w/out giving an opening to your opponent. I have been using kicks for atemi for a while now and it proved to be effective so far . Again , thanks for the answers guys . Based on your answers and from my experience I have made a list of some very effective counters or defence:
1. Entering before the kick can be fully delivered.
2. Moving out of range - Side stepping or Taking a step back .
3. Redirecting or Deflecting the kick.
4. Last,I dont know if most of u agree w/ me on this ? Blocking the kick.

As for the atemi,It can be delivered to
the:
1.Shin
2.Ribs
3.Groin
Just low kicks to maintain balance.



TUOCS
MUSUBI DOJO
KI AIKIDO

[DJM]

samurai_x wrote:

<snip>
2. Moving out of range - Side stepping or Taking a step back .
<snippet>
4. Last,I dont know if most of u agree w/ me on this ? Blocking the kick.

Hi..
I agree with a lot of what you suggested in the above post, however...
;)
Side stepping is fine, but since karate-types tend to follow a kick with a punch you'll just offer then a nice inviting target for that follow-up if you only step back...
As for blocking, nope. Not - in my opinion at least - Aikido, since you're opposing your strength against his. Obviously there are strong arguments to use your tegatana to maintain maai, but not to actually stop the kick itself..
Just 2p worth...
Peace,
David

[Guest5678]

I have to agree completly with Ledyard sensei on this one. The only attacks I've experienced that included kicking was aimed at my knees or groin. If you think about it, knees are the closest targets to kick. Sword people know this all to well. You must either enter and jam the kick or enter around the kick and involk a defensive response from the attacker. Backing up will just serve to make you a bigger target, unless of course you're making distance in an attempt to introduce the attacker to Mr. Smith and Wesson. :D

Regards,

Dan Pokorny

[Chuck Clark]

If it means anything...

I also agree with Ledyard sensei concerning defense against kicks. (I personally "love it" when the opponent chooses to stand on one leg while I get to stand on both of mine.)

You must understand that YOU WILL get hit in any encounter. The important part is that you survive and end the encounter.

[E.J. Nella]

Hi again,

I wish to give my opinion on a couple of ideas that have been touched on by a other folks in this thread. The first is ma-ai. If the attacker is too far to punch, they may still be close enough to kick. Sometimes we don't think of that while focusing on punches and grabs. This is what many people that train in different fighting arts are taught, particularly in Jeet Kune Do. There is a "kicking range", a "punching range" a "trapping range" (kind of like Tai Chi's Sticky Hands) and a "grappling range" (on the ground). So the point is to be aware of the attackers' distance so we can be prepared for what may be coming.

The second thought that entered my cashew-sized brain is "diversion". Again, in JKD we are taught to either punch with a single direct attack (with the intent to disable with the first blow) or attack with combination (in order to get the defender backing up on their heels). It is not assumed this will always be successful so both of these tactics are usually combined with a kick either first or second to divert the attention of the defender either high or low. Punches to the face area tend to bring the defenders' attention and hands up leaving them susceptible to a low kick. Delivering a low kick diverts the attention low to open up an attack high.

These points strike me as being important to an Aikidoist. We all try to keep a "soft focus" on our partner to be aware of anything, but if we don't occasionally see some kicks headed our way, when it happens we may not be able to act as quickly as necessary because we have not developed the muscle memory required to act without thinking too long.

My 2 copper pennies worth!

[Aiki1]

Kicking is always an interesting subject.... I spent several years learning Hapkido with Bong Soo Han quite a while ago, and pretty much learned the ins and outs - interestingly enough, a lot of the high Korean kicks, esp. the jump spinning ones, were actually originally designed to take a rider off a horse.

[jera]

Hi,

There's alot of good advice on here, so here's my two bits worth. I've spent quite alot of time in freeform sparring with friends who practice Jeet Kune Do type systems and pure Shotokan Karate. Both of these guys use alot more kicks than I do (I view them as flash if you have time but generally anything above knee height is too slow - could be my legs are slow but neither Tai Chi nor Wing Chun advise kicking high.) I have found that iriminage techniques work extremely well against karate style snap and push kicks, entering around the kick and executing your technique as your partner hurriedly tries to get his/her foot back on the floor. I do employ waist high front kicks quite alot as they are good for seting an opponent up for follow up hand techniques or just to push him/her out of reach. The only kick I had serious trouble getting around was the Thai shin kick that my JKD friend favours. I'd get inside the shin and get a knee in my back - and he's not afraid of going to the floor either so the resulting crash of limbs to the mat gets pretty messy.

Kicks are extremely powerful if you can land them and are best employed (as was shown in a previous post) to take care of secondary opponents at range or against relatively unskilled attackers.

Happy ukemi

Jera

[aiki_what]

Kicks...like any other attack occur in either a vertical or horizontal plane. Aikido is well versed to handle kicks via the standard applications...i.e. irimi and tenkan.

Irimi works well for those attacks that occur in the Vertical plane..tenkan works well (sometimes coupled with irimi) in the horizontal.

The problem lies not in the application of technique but mindset. The first inclination is to block...but as my wise old Sensei told me..."If you have time to block, you have time to move" it's just a different set of muscles. Blocking is a situational response to a attack, Movement (irimi and tenkan) is a strategic response....moving to a place of specific advantage in relation to an attack. You change the line of attack to your advantage..it's a different mindset than the common aikido adage "get off the line". More realistically it is " Get off the line at the point where you have the upper hand."

Whew!

[jera]

Hmm, absolutely, and that's where the weakness lies in kicks. They give you time to get moving.

Interestingly Wing Chun uses similar lines, angles and timing to Aikido but the applications are very different (all rapid short range strikes and kicks to the knees etc...).

[andrea]

The only differece between kicks and punches is on the ma-ai. more important is to stop of speaking in termes of "defense" agaist kicks or anything else because this isn't a good attitude for fighting: defense is equipareted to passive while fighting speaking is better to be active then we should start to have an attacking attitude.
Hovever the best thing is to be able to balance inn and yang (not only during a training section or a fight) so, is not correct to stress on defense neither on attack (but i think too many aikidokas practise with a defense idea in their mind: they are dead before fighting)
sincerely yours
andrea anzalone

[Chuck Clark]

Think again, Andrea. The movements of kicks and punches are quite different due to the mechanical workings of the joints involved. Kicks tend to always work in arcs and punches can come at you in a very straight line.

If you always watch the center line and shoulders of the uke, you can see any pre-movement body shift to take weight off a leg in order to kick (this works for the punches, too). Arcs are also much easier to see and enter into.

[andrea]

Chuck Clark wrote:
Think again, Andrea. The movements of kicks and punches are quite different due to the mechanical workings of the joints involved. Kicks tend to always work in arcs and punches can come at you in a very straight line.

If you always watch the center line and shoulders of the uke, you can see any pre-movement body shift to take weight off a leg in order to kick (this works for the punches, too). Arcs are also much easier to see and enter into.

Hi Clark,
I thinked, and the result is that arcs and straight line enter together in the field of ma-ai, as I wrote yesterday, so the problem is the attitude and not the "technics".
Yours sincerely
andrea

[AikiTom]

I have to agree with Clark Sensei - kicks and punches are not the same. Ma-ai is important, but I think the timing is different, and must be since more distance (therefore more time) is involved in an arc, rather than a straight-line attack.

[George S. Ledyard]

Chuck Clark wrote:
Think again, Andrea. The movements of kicks and punches are quite different due to the mechanical workings of the joints involved. Kicks tend to always work in arcs and punches can come at you in a very straight line.

If you always watch the center line and shoulders of the uke, you can see any pre-movement body shift to take weight off a leg in order to kick (this works for the punches, too). Arcs are also much easier to see and enter into.

This is true only of you are dealing with traditional Thai / Korean /Japanese / Okinawan styles of kicking. When you look at the South Asian styles or even an art like the Russian Systema kicks can be done at exactly the same range as the hands. In terms of the Jeet Kun Do ranges mentioned above We typically think of kicks at "kicking range", knees at "punching" and "trapping range" and , unless you are familiar with Thai close quarters knee techniques, we don;t usually consider kicks at grappingrange.

In your Kali, Silat, Kuntao styles or the Russian Systema you will see an array of close quarters leg techniques. The lines are often quite deceptive so that they tend to cause you to block on the wrong plane (the Jeet Kun Do folks call this PIA or Progressive Indirect attack which loosely translated means an attack that changes vectors in mid flight).

In all these systems there is a smooth transition from strikes using the legs / knees / feet to foot traps and entanglements. So the person doing what i recommended earler which is to enter directly to the attacker's center and jam the potential kick will still have to deal with non-impact use of the feet.

It is this reason that I beleive we discover an area which has largely disappeared from Aikido but I think ewas once important, trapping tha foot of the attacker. If you look at Silat for example, there are many technbiques that are very similar to those we know from Aikido. The difference is ath they are usually done without grabbing (using entanglement instead) and very frequently the defender enters directly in and manages to step on the attacker's foot thereby trapping it. Not only does this prevent him from making a balancing step in order to not fall, but it also prevents the use of that foot for impact technique. I think this type of training disappeared from Aikido because it is somewhat dangerous. If you think of a kokyunage executed when the ukes front foot is trapped you can see that as he falls in the typical spiral he will dislocate his ankle if you do not realease the foot.

When I started to investigate this I was supposing that these may havre been in Aikido at one time. Later my Assidtant Chief Instructor, Kevin Lam, told me that in fact Imaizumi Sensei had specifically stated in class that foot trapping had been important in applied technique.

Any, trapping is an important part of kick defense once you start considering the use of the legs and feet in these other styles.

[Aiki1]

When I hung around Seagal for a while years ago, before he became a movie star.... well anyway... Seagal used to (probably still does) teach stepping on the foot with the entry a lot, but I agree, it really is super dangerous. Also, I think it's tricky, meaning if one were to include it in one's repitoire, I think it would have to be used very strategically, because even though it can limit the ability of the attacker to kick etc., it can also limit the mobility and sense of "openness" of the nage.

[Chuck Clark]

I specifically didn't deal with mawai because it can always be different relative to the techinque and intent.

However, kicks always work in an arc from the point of origin to the target. Punches can work in an arc or in a straight line similar to a piston.

Of course there are different styles of kicking, etc. Off-line/entering into the origin of the kick is the answer, in my experience.

Shinto Muso Ryu Jo techinques (at higher level in the system) often include stepping on the attacker's foot. I often do it in our Jiyushinkai style of randori, too, although you must be very careful as it is easy to hurt someone in practice.


[Edited by Chuck Clark on August 6, 2000 at 01:02pm]