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Enrique Antonio Reyes
09-30-2008, 09:27 PM
I've heard of a lot of people getting injured during break falls. Unlike in judo where they spar and make each other fall I'm not sure if it is really necessary to use break falls in Aikido training. I mean it's not like a real attacker outside of the gym would fall that way. (or would they?)

So are break falls really necessary in Aikido training? What do you think?:confused:

mickeygelum
09-30-2008, 10:32 PM
Mr. Reyes,

What was Camar Sensei's response to this question?

Yes, they are necessary.

Mickey

raul rodrigo
09-30-2008, 10:38 PM
Well a nidan friend of ours was accosted by a mugger with a knife one night and responded with kote gaeshi. The mugger came to grief on the sidewalk due to lack to ability to handle that kind of fall.

elizondo
09-30-2008, 10:56 PM
What happened to the mugger?

raul rodrigo
09-30-2008, 11:01 PM
Nothing good. In addition to the impact with the concrete, our friend felt the bones in the mugger's wrist snap or dislocate during the kote gaeshi. After that, my friend didn't stop to give first aid; he got out of there quick in case the mugger had backup, a common enough occurrence in Manila streets.

Ketsan
09-30-2008, 11:02 PM
I've heard of a lot of people getting injured during break falls. Unlike in judo where they spar and make each other fall I'm not sure if it is really necessary to use break falls in Aikido training. I mean it's not like a real attacker outside of the gym would fall that way. (or would they?)

So are break falls really necessary in Aikido training? What do you think?:confused:

Hmm, if I stopped taking ukemi and I didn't get injured I wouldn't go back. A couple of times I've had techniques perfomed on me before I was ready to take ukemi, it isn't a pleasent experience.

With Sumi otoshi the first part of my body to make contact with the floor was the back of my skull (feet were in the air) and I was in no condition to carry on after or even for a couple of days after!

Nobody with any sense or experience ever said that ukemi would allow you to avoid injury 100% of the time. Done correctly there is no ukemi, all techniques are modifed to allow uke to take ukemi so that training can take place. They're still not safe, but they are safer.

Ukemi is just a method for escaping most of the destructive power of a technique. In practice the idea is that your opponent doesn't know the ukemi and so recieves all of the destructive energy and is...............destroyed.:D

Enrique Antonio Reyes
10-01-2008, 12:35 AM
Mr. Reyes,

What was Camar Sensei's response to this question?

Yes, they are necessary.

Mickey

Hi Mickey. I'm not so sure about your intention but to answer you I never really asked him that question. I'm guessing he'd say...Yes?:rolleyes:

Enrique Antonio Reyes
10-01-2008, 12:39 AM
Ukemi is just a method for escaping most of the destructive power of a technique. In practice the idea is that your opponent doesn't know the ukemi and so recieves all of the destructive energy and is...............destroyed.:D

Hi Alex,

Please note that I only meant break falls or hard falls. I didn't mean to remove "rolls" from training

One-Aiki,

Iking

Enrique Antonio Reyes
10-01-2008, 12:43 AM
Well a nidan friend of ours was accosted by a mugger with a knife one night and responded with kote gaeshi. The mugger came to grief on the sidewalk due to lack to ability to handle that kind of fall.

Thank you for your input Raul and I pity the mugger for not asking first if his potential victim is a "nidan".

My point is that during training we almost always get by doing a back roll during a kote gaeshi. It is only when we are requested to that we do a breakfall.

I don't know. Maybe it's just me. Again, thanks for the input.

One-Aiki,

Iking

ilia rudnitskiy
10-01-2008, 01:30 AM
It all depends on the speed and the "size" of the technique...

For example, if nage applies kotegaeshi very swiftly, your body won't be able to keep up with a normal back roll, and you are likely to injure your wrist... this is why we perform a breakfall (or my opinion anyways) which is much faster than a back roll.

Secondly, if the nage performs kotegaeshi while moving your wrist across his body, say from one knee to the other, your body would have to travel a long distance, and a back roll might be uncomfortable... therefore, we do a breakfall to "jump" that distance.

This applies to pretty much any technique, and even more so to techniques that are very difficult or impossible to roll out of... such as shihonage (if you do it the arm-breaking way).

Also, I don't see how you could get injured while breakfalling if you practice them correctly... And the reason that any attacker outside the dojo wouldn't breakfall is, as Raul stated, that they would have a broken wrist (or any other part of their body).

Mary Eastland
10-01-2008, 06:44 AM
Nope. We never do them.
Mary

DonMagee
10-01-2008, 07:53 AM
It really depends how you project the energy of a throw. If I throw my partner down at the ground he should break fall. If I throw him outward and away he should roll.

A good example of this is kata garuma. I can pick you up and throw you right at my feet. In this case, you need to break fall. I could dive under you and 'wheel' you over the top of me, in this case you might breakfall, but you also have the option to roll, and probably should take that.

DH
10-01-2008, 08:10 AM
Maybe the OP's question is more to the point than the follow-ups.
Why is it that under full resistance-breakfalls aren't usually needed?

I think considering the dynamic in grappling is a smart place to start. There, breakfalls are more difficult to get. I think there is a great deal of fallacy in the Japanese nage / /Uke training model that states that Many of the more dangerous techniques had to either be removed or practiced slowly. I've suggested or flat out stated in several threads that fighting back "changes" the dynamics in the human frame and mindset that greatly affects how the body responds. Under stress many of these supposedly "deadly" and "dangerous" techniques actually prove to be highly improbable and in many cases a practical impossibility. When you consider these waza were supposedly meant to work when tried against the "supposedly equally trained warrior" the improbability goes not from the how effective "it is" but whether "it ever was."
I think a lot of these waza. were invented after and between any war, by an older version of bored farmers and suburbanites with Japanese names. Most experienced grapplers-which was what these warriors were supposed to be-would never let you get that joint that way, the body dynamic, would for the most part, deny the opportunity. And their response to an atemi, would never be to jump or roll away from it, but to counter and throw or punch, kick, and head butt the crap out of you for trying.

If folks are having fun thats great, but its nice to have fun and maintain a more level headed understanding of the probablities in using waza as a cop, or as a defense against an ever growng "grappling-aware" public so that in a self-defense situation you're not expecting something that isnlt going to happen and are at least more aware of what and who you may be actually playing at and with.

Carsten Möllering
10-01-2008, 08:25 AM
Moin moin,
My point is that during training we almost always get by doing a back roll during a kote gaeshi. It is only when we are requested to that we do a breakfall.


In our Aikido we never tell uke how to fall, but we lead (or try to) uke by our technique.

For example we do kote gaeshi in different ways:
There is a way to execute the technique, so uke can fall backward.
We can execute it in a way, so uke has to take a forward roll.
And we can (try to) do it in a way, uke has to take a forward breakfall. (This doesn't only mean to hold his wrist, but also the kuzushi is slightly different.)

That implies that uke doesn't take breakfalls because of joint pressure oder pain but because his whole body is leaded this way.
We don't work on the wrist, but try to affect the center of uke and thereby his whole body.

And yes: According to the way nage does the technique breakfalls are really necessary. It is nage who decides.

Carsten

Ketsan
10-01-2008, 08:37 AM
Hi Alex,

Please note that I only meant break falls or hard falls. I didn't mean to remove "rolls" from training

One-Aiki,

Iking

That's what I'm talking about, we call it forward ukemi. Yes, rolls are also forward ukemi but by some language quirk in our dojo "forward ukemi" refers to any flip or high fall. :D

When techniques are performed correctly the safest, if not the only pratical, option should be forward ukemi . Uke willbe taking a very heavy fall so they have a choice, either they land in a heap or they take forward ukemi.

Where I practice rolls are only practical when technique is done slowly to give up forward ukemi would probably be safer, but it would demand that we lower the intensity of our training.

Eva Antonia
10-01-2008, 08:46 AM
Hi all,

according to my very limited experience, there are a lot of factors influencing the necessity of breakfalls.

1) The weight of uke and tori...it's much easier for a well built person to apply a technique to a lightweight and send her/ him flying than vice versa - especially if you are not yet very advanced.

2) The experience of uke and tori. I remember from randoris in our dojo, but also from normal training that there are (for me) no possibilities not to do a breakfall, when certain persons perorm kote gaeshi, sumi otoshi or juji garami on me. There wouldn't just be the time to think of trying a backfall because I'd already be flying. On the other hand, there is NO ONE I could make do a breakfall, and if they do on a technique performed by me, they do it just for the pleasure of breakfalling. Third, in our dojo is a guy who ALWAYS tries to escape breakfalls with backrolls, and noone ever made him do a breakfall...but then I think toris know that he is afraid of breakfalls and just don't try too hard.

3) The dynamic of the attack and the defense. If things like sumi otoshi, kote gaeshi etc. are done really quickly, and with the right turn and distance and so on (all things I know theoretically but don't manage in practice), then how do you NOT do a breakfall? I know from my wrists that for example kote gaeshi just doesn't work if applied slowly; you can turn and turn and nothing really happens, but if it's done rapidly, it's the loss of equilibrium that makes me do the fall and not the hurting wrist. Or for example really quick irimi nage (direct or indirect) or ten shi nage, that causes a sort of backwards breakfall because you just don't have the time to fold your body for a backroll, but you still can stretch out the arm and turn a bit around in order to buffer the fall and not crash on your skull...

4) Whatever forward or sideward fall when you hold the kimono of the partner...what can he do?

I don't know if I will think the same if I ever (hopefully) become a DAN...but at the moment it looks like this :)

Best regards,

Eva

DonMagee
10-01-2008, 08:48 AM
I just thought of something else. When I throw in judo 9 times out of 10 I do not let go of my partner. This removes rolling as a possible ukemi.

gdandscompserv
10-01-2008, 08:56 AM
I just thought of something else. When I throw in judo 9 times out of 10 I do not let go of my partner. This removes rolling as a possible ukemi.
I think you hit the nail on the head there Don.

DH
10-01-2008, 09:00 AM
I just thought of something else. When I throw in judo 9 times out of 10 I do not let go of my partner. This removes rolling as a possible ukemi.

You also "forgot" my point. Usually they.....haven't let go of you either! Hence the furtherance of my point that the dynamic changes. I'd add to that the way the body falls when being thrown from active resistance is different as well.

Mato-san
10-01-2008, 09:27 AM
I guess this one goes back to the CT thread, if you as Uke hang on long enough, sure the breakfall is valid. Or if you as Nage, as in Kotegaishi (for a loose example) hang on long enough, once again sure the Ukes big fall is valid. Showtime I say!
But its all fun.

Personally I reserve that kind of thing for the Jo, as Uke I will hang onto that thing as if it were a spear, because the reality is if it were a spear you would probably not want to release.

I think the cling on point (Uke or Nage) is very valid in this thread and other threads possibly overlooked, be it taijutsu, ken or Jo.

Flintstone
10-01-2008, 10:28 AM
We don't work on the wrist [...]
You don't work on the wrist in kotegaeshi...? Ouch. So that's a kokyunage, not a kotegaeshi.

phitruong
10-01-2008, 10:30 AM
I just thought of something else. When I throw in judo 9 times out of 10 I do not let go of my partner. This removes rolling as a possible ukemi.

not only they don't let you go, they ride you down into the floor too, sort of a double whammy kind of thing. for folks who don't believe in breakfall, I'd just say kata guruma. :D

raul rodrigo
10-01-2008, 10:45 AM
not only they don't let you go, they ride you down into the floor too, sort of a double whammy kind of thing. for folks who don't believe in breakfall, I'd just say kata guruma. :D

Hell, why not soto makikomi? No rolling out of that one.

C. David Henderson
10-01-2008, 11:03 AM
I believe I understand why people are questioning the need to do breakfalls (either often or at all); however, I think knowing how to do them well is well worth knowing.

Breakfalls have kept me from injury both in practice (e.g., hard and/or unexpected throws) and outside (e.g., mountain biking). Even if we were to agree that breakfalls are not "necessary" most of time, when the time comes, knowing how may be critical.

For what its worth.

David Henderson

Carsten Möllering
10-01-2008, 11:04 AM
You don't work on the wrist in kotegaeshi...? Ouch. So that's a kokyunage, not a kotegaeshi.

It is not our "first intention" or goal when doing kote gaeshi to destroy or injure the joint. Our intention or goal is to move the whole uke, his body. So we work on the center of uke by using the contact at the wrist. (It's the same with nikyo e.g.)

Check out the third one: Kote gaeshi or kokyu nage? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PQsRl9aFTM)
The first one is different, but there is no difference in bending the wrist between the second (ushiro ukemi) and the third version (mae ukemi). It isn't causing pain this way anywa. What throws uke in the third version is the different kuzushi. And it isn't possible to do ushiro ukemi in that situation.

Carsten

Ketsan
10-01-2008, 11:17 AM
Maybe the OP's question is more to the point than the follow-ups.
Why is it that under full resistance-breakfalls aren't usually needed?

Full reistance.................hmmm. You mean as in Judo, for example?

The difference between the two arts from a ukemi point of view is Judo's emphasis on not being thrown and thus loosing the match, even at the risk of injury.
In Aikido ukemi is for preventing injury at all costs by escaping the technique if possible, but if not, breakfalling in the hope that after landing you can continue to fight.
The reason it's not deemed to be needed is because Aikido is a "discreditied" art within sporting circles where "full resistance" is common.
I've watched fights in the UFC where fighters have been dumped on their back and submitted/grounded and pounded where an Aikidoka would have floated around the technique and probably escaped.

DonMagee
10-01-2008, 12:05 PM
You also "forgot" my point. Usually they.....haven't let go of you either! Hence the furtherance of my point that the dynamic changes. I'd add to that the way the body falls when being thrown from active resistance is different as well.

Well I've tried not teaching falling to new judo students, and they didn't last very long. Breakfalls are important for training in judo. Sure the odd hard throw on a mat won't kill you (once you have trained your body to get used to it), but try taking 200 big throws in a short period without any breakfalls. I still see guys who don't take the breakfalls seriously getting the wind knocked out of them and hitting their head on the floor.

But you are correct, in actual sparing or competition, the falls are less important. But if you do not drill them you will not have trained the body to exhale and tuck the chin. Those are really the two things that let you keep fighting after getting a big hard fall.

If falling skills were not important, then I would expect to see more wrestlers who show up for judo to fair better in the throw line/sparing when being thrown.

Nafis Zahir
10-01-2008, 01:31 PM
Are breakfalls necessary? Sometimes they are. I have seen people take breakfalls when it was not necessary to do show. That kind of thing is just showboating. But when training very hard, it may be necessary to take a breakfall when you are thrown very hard, suddenly taken off of your feet, or held when you are use to being let go. I don't think it's something that should be done very often, but I do believe it is something that should be worked on. I only do them when necessary.

Marie Noelle Fequiere
10-01-2008, 03:21 PM
Not only can good falling techniques help you avoid injury when you take an accidental fall outside of the dojo, what happens when you are attacked on the street by somebody who knows Aikido, and is good at it, and gives you a full speed kotegaeshi?
I've said it before, I will say it again: The assumption that only honest people have access to martial art training and the ability to excel in them is naive.

SmilingNage
10-01-2008, 03:24 PM
Breakfalls are nothing more than rolling in the air above the mat. It is an extension of rolling on the mat. If you cant roll, then you shouldnt breakfall. It is an advance understanding of ukemi and technique. With that being said should you learn it, of course. Is it necessary, not really. You can get by with forward and back roll and the side ukemi(which is nothing more than a break fall that doesnt get launched into the air.)

Flintstone
10-01-2008, 04:04 PM
Check out the third one: Kote gaeshi or kokyu nage? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PQsRl9aFTM)
The first one is different, but there is no difference in bending the wrist between the second (ushiro ukemi) and the third version (mae ukemi). It isn't causing pain this way anywa. What throws uke in the third version is the different kuzushi. And it isn't possible to do ushiro ukemi in that situation.
Three diferents variations on the same theme. Well put together. However, in the video, it looks like he's working the wrist... Have to feel it, but I'll take your word for it.

DonMagee
10-01-2008, 06:19 PM
Breakfalls are nothing more than rolling in the air above the mat. It is an extension of rolling on the mat. If you cant roll, then you shouldnt breakfall. It is an advance understanding of ukemi and technique. With that being said should you learn it, of course. Is it necessary, not really. You can get by with forward and back roll and the side ukemi(which is nothing more than a break fall that doesnt get launched into the air.)

What you and I call breakfalls are much different things. When people I throw breakfall, they simply do not have a choice to roll. They have a choice to tuck their chin, exhale, slap the mat, and try not to cross their legs. That is about all the choice they get. This is because they are flying though the air attached to me and have a split second before the rest of my body lands squarely on their torso.

Ron Tisdale
10-01-2008, 06:28 PM
Hey Don,

Sounds about right... :D

Best,
Ron (ok, I like the aikido version of that too...you know the gracefull, high flying...what ever...)

DonMagee
10-01-2008, 06:40 PM
Hey Don,

Sounds about right... :D

Best,
Ron (ok, I like the aikido version of that too...you know the gracefull, high flying...what ever...)

I love watching the aikido ones, I just can't make anyone do those....yet....

I still have been unable to jump into breakfalls. I have a mental block on it. Grab me by the chest and toss me and I have no problems :D

jonreading
10-01-2008, 08:04 PM
Before I answer the question if break falls are necessary, I am going to qualify my response with similar [rhetorical] questions.... Is swimming necessary? No. Unless you fall into water where you must swim. What knowing how to start a fire? Nope. Unless you need to start a fire. What about learning to read? Professional athletes do it...

I teach break falls to my students because I feel it is academic to their education. Learning to protect your body is important to the study of a martial art, certainly to the practice of that martial art. Also, I do not want to endanger a student by executing a technique unless I am comfortable they can survive the execution of the technique.

Whether my students choose to take a break fall or not is a different question. I give my students the opportunity to take sutemi or ukemi, but I expect them to know both for their safety.

Ron Tisdale
10-01-2008, 08:10 PM
Cough...was that CHEST or CHEST HAIR...

I did that once, unintentionally...

Ever hear a guy scream? :D

B,
R

DonMagee
10-01-2008, 10:15 PM
Cough...was that CHEST or CHEST HAIR...

I did that once, unintentionally...

Ever hear a guy scream? :D

B,
R

All those judoka make fun of me for wearing a rashguard...until I unleash the chest fro!!!

Enrique Antonio Reyes
10-02-2008, 03:37 AM
Well I've tried not teaching falling to new judo students, and they didn't last very long. Breakfalls are important for training in judo. Sure the odd hard throw on a mat won't kill you (once you have trained your body to get used to it), but try taking 200 big throws in a short period without any breakfalls. I still see guys who don't take the breakfalls seriously getting the wind knocked out of them and hitting their head on the floor.



In my opinion breakfalls would be a necessity in JUDO and BJJ. I am just not so sure how it applies with AIKIDO training so that's why I made the thread. Don't get me wrong I did a lot of breakfalls (mat, wood hell even on concrete at times) when I started (did some jumping ones too) but I am just exploring the idea that it may not be much of a necessity in AIKIDO.

One-Aiki,

Iking

Carsten Möllering
10-02-2008, 04:17 AM
HiI am just not so sure how it applies with AIKIDO training so that's why I made the thread. ... but I am just exploring the idea that it may not be much of a necessity in AIKIDO.
I hope my english is enough to make my thoughts understandable ...

morote dori ude kime nage
kote gaeshi
shiho nage
some kokyu nage

Some techniques can be executed in a way nage holds uke elbows, wrist, wrist and elbow or only one elbow (bend of the elbow?) and doesn't let uke go. So the center of the technique is in front of nages center and uke is forced to move around at that hight.
And he can't roll because nage holds on.
Same thing in juji garami

And tenchi nage and irimi nage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsMemmqLyqA) can be executed in a way, uke has to move around the leg and center of nage. Again rolling isn't possible.

Here is an example of shiho nage. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFCNvIJ8CjI)
Here some of the other techniques I mentioned. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbCPDogOfrg)

I think there is no discussion about Koshi nage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-FRjEfP94s) and aiki otoshi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ma4oRk0e_nw)?

So I don't think that we have to practice every time in this straight manner. But those pictures display the techniques as they ought to be in our opinion.
And that makes breakfalls necessary.

Carsten

SmilingNage
10-02-2008, 08:50 AM
What you and I call breakfalls are much different things. When people I throw breakfall, they simply do not have a choice to roll. They have a choice to tuck their chin, exhale, slap the mat, and try not to cross their legs. That is about all the choice they get. This is because they are flying though the air attached to me and have a split second before the rest of my body lands squarely on their torso.

I would call that being caught between the hammer and the anvil, not breakfalling.

Tambreet
10-02-2008, 10:50 AM
We spend a lot of time at my dojo practicing ukemi and breakfalls. I think it's very important for one reason: I can't control how people throw me. But if my ukemi's good enough, I can make sure that I don't get hurt no matter what comes my way.

Also I'm a relative newbie, but I think breakfall can be taught without serious injury. At our dojo, we start with rolls, then yoko ukemi (side fall), and then eventually breakfall (but not with beginners), and I can't recall seeing any injuries other than minor bumps and bruises or soreness.

xuzen
10-03-2008, 01:13 AM
I wants my uke to get up again so that I can slam him/her again into the mat.

That is why uke must learn breakfalls. Ukes are in short supply, I want to recycle them.

Boon.

Mato-san
10-03-2008, 10:03 AM
I want to fall harder than I throw

NagaBaba
10-03-2008, 10:06 AM
I see another reason to do regularly high flying break falls, even in cooperative environment. I observed ppl who don't do it, and their body tends to be sloppy or stiff after many years of practice.

100 high flying break falls in every class it is an excellent method to soft a body, yet still develops great flexibility and power. Also, a body gets use to strong physical impact, so the pain acceptance increases strongly and if you get hit (accidentally or for purpose) you simply don't care.

Mato-san
10-03-2008, 10:10 AM
If you feel pain in a breakfall you are doing it wrong

Mato-san
10-03-2008, 10:35 AM
I think the fact that you are hitting the mat at full force and speed tends to freak people out. Looks sweet and makes a phat noise but if you do it wrong it hurts. Not a huge deal..

I think people should learn it but not do it for every throw executed in class. If you take a nice new variation of a a waza presented by Sensei..hang on to it and take a big fall and test it....

show off at demonstrations etc....

Each to their own

Michael Douglas
10-03-2008, 10:48 AM
Not only can good falling techniques help you avoid injury when you take an accidental fall outside of the dojo, what happens when you are attacked on the street by somebody who knows Aikido, and is good at it, and gives you a full speed kotegaeshi?
The streets ARE such a dangerous place. :eek:

As for the original question : YES of course sometimes you need to 'breakfall' in aikido.
Well, I guess there may be some dojos where everything is so fluffy and rolly that a hard fall is never taken ... but ... then that's NOT really aikido is it?

Lyle Bogin
10-07-2008, 06:51 AM
Breakfalls often are painful, even if they are totally correct. There is only so much force that can be dissipated through increasing the area of the body that its the mat.

The breakfall is the "high spinning kick" of aikido. Sexy. Youthful. It lets other people know you are the master! It can save your life!

Really I think that you only need them for techniques where both arms need to be tied up for the throw, and things like koshinage

And to deal with macho bullshit.

Carsten Möllering
10-07-2008, 07:25 AM
Breakfalls often are painful, even if they are totally correct.Hm, got other experiences.

Really I think that you only need them for techniques where both arms need to be tied up for the throw, and things like koshinageWhat about shiho nage oder kote gaeshi? Only one arm is involved.
I posted videos of both in this thread. Do you really think, you could roll out of this techniques?

I think on the contrary, that every techinque can be done in a way, uke has to do a breakfall.

Carsten

Eva Antonia
10-07-2008, 07:59 AM
Hello,

last summer, when I was 5th kyu but had recently started to discover breakfalls and was very happy with this great new discovery, there was a guy who did such a shiho nage on me (with the forearm twisted outwards and an evil block below evileyes ) that the only way out would have been a breakfall half backwards - and that variant I didn't know. He didn't know that I didn't know, and so he just went through it with force and velocity, and there I hang on my twisted arm, could not make a nice, swift backroll and slapped my legs furiously.

It hurt THREE months!!!

So I think yes, it is necessary, not only to have fun, but also to protect yourself.
Still, I wouldn't go so far to do a HUNDRED of them during every training...

Best regards,

Eva

DonMagee
10-07-2008, 12:47 PM
Breakfalls often are painful, even if they are totally correct. There is only so much force that can be dissipated through increasing the area of the body that its the mat.

The breakfall is the "high spinning kick" of aikido. Sexy. Youthful. It lets other people know you are the master! It can save your life!

Really I think that you only need them for techniques where both arms need to be tied up for the throw, and things like koshinage

And to deal with macho bullshit.

I can't say I've taken a painful breakfall in the last year or so. I have been sloppy and gotten the wind knocked out of me or had poor form and banged up my knees on each other. But I can't recall a proper break fall I've taken that has hurt.

mwible
10-07-2008, 01:21 PM
I've heard of a lot of people getting injured during break falls. Unlike in judo where they spar and make each other fall I'm not sure if it is really necessary to use break falls in Aikido training. I mean it's not like a real attacker outside of the gym would fall that way. (or would they?)

So are break falls really necessary in Aikido training? What do you think?:confused:

If it weren't for breakfalls, and properly knowing how to fall; every Aikido class, i would come out with bruises on my kidneys, a very sore back, and probably ATLEAST a mild concussion.

So, yes. Breakfall's are very necessary in the training of Aikido.

mwible
10-07-2008, 01:23 PM
I can't say I've taken a painful breakfall in the last year or so. I have been sloppy and gotten the wind knocked out of me or had poor form and banged up my knees on each other. But I can't recall a proper break fall I've taken that has hurt.

He was probably refering to executing a Sutemi, or "Sacrifice fall". Which i find to be mildly painful just about every time i execute one.

But, ordinary breakfalls, noooo, definitly not painful.

-morgan

Mato-san
10-08-2008, 07:22 AM
I can't say I've taken a painful breakfall in the last year or so. I have been sloppy and gotten the wind knocked out of me or had poor form and banged up my knees on each other. But I can't recall a proper break fall I've taken that has hurt.

Well said Don, I have had more pain from taking Mae Ukemi... when the technique is done with speed (no macho shi#t at all) sometimes the breakfall is softer although it looks harder. Some techniques you just can't roll out of, even if the Nage releases early. SO YES breakfalls should be learnt, but learn them safely and execute them gracefully. NO PAIN

Peter Bowyer
10-27-2008, 12:34 PM
To answer that you have to know 'why' we breakfall. The option of breakfalling or simply rolling is most dependant on the speed and precision in which the technique is being executed. Sometimes a roll just won't cut it.

Put yourself in this situation: you're being mugged and you then perform Aikido to get away but the mugger also has some skills. If they are skilled enough and perform a technique on you would you want to be slammed against the ground or would you rather take the fall easier and control yourself?

Sure, one can get injured practicing breakfalls, but that can happen in anything in life. You can injure yourself knitting! The idea is to teach and customize your body to adapt to any situation...and needing to breakfall my be required.

Aikibu
10-27-2008, 01:25 PM
Nope...

I don't see them as a requirement at all. Break-falling is a good skill but one should be careful in their later years. I started break-falling in Judo over 30 years ago and no matter how good you are it takes it toll over time.

I don't want hip replacement surgery.

If you're going to feature break-falling in practice then make sure you build folks up to it. If they can't forward and backward roll with effortless grace then be careful with teaching them break-falls. I have seen too many "bone break-falls" in my day.

William Hazen

Voitokas
10-27-2008, 06:46 PM
Nope...

I don't see them as a requirement at all. Break-falling is a good skill but one should be careful in their later years. I started break-falling in Judo over 30 years ago and no matter how good you are it takes it toll over time.

I don't want hip replacement surgery.

If you're going to feature break-falling in practice then make sure you build folks up to it. If they can't forward and backward roll with effortless grace then be careful with teaching them break-falls. I have seen too many "bone break-falls" in my day.

William Hazen

So maybe necessary to learn how to do, but not necessary to make uke do.

That makes sense - breakfalls never hurt me now, but I hope to still be practising into my sixties and seventies, which is old enough for a broken bone to be a really big deal. I can't think of any techniques off the top of my head where you have to make uke take a breakfall.

On the other hand, if they are necessary to learn how to do (and I would say they are, even when they're not normally part of your practise - usually I end up taking breakfalls when working with overzealous beginners. :uch:), then we have to practise them to get them right...

Aikibu
10-27-2008, 11:06 PM
Good points...

Usually when I visit another Dojo it seems that every technique ends in a breakfall. LOL

I guess it's cool to see a 6'2" 250 pound dude go BOOM! :D

William Hazen

I am hoping if I get to see Mark Murry and he teaches our class he'll go easy on my old bones. :)

Amadeus
10-27-2008, 11:22 PM
There is alot of energy in gravity. Energy that can hurt you when you hit the ground. With tecnique you can harmonize with that energy and transform it to a positive force that won't hurt you, but instead get you back on your feet.

That is aikido.

Daniel Blanco
10-28-2008, 01:59 PM
Yes I feel that a student should have the knoweldge of soft ukemi and hard(breakfalls) ukemi,because you never know if your partner is moving at a fast pace and to avoid injury a break fall is necessary,a student should start learning breakfalls at the 3rd kyu level and above.

Amir Krause
10-29-2008, 09:27 AM
I think it depends on teacher and style.

I recall a friend who practiced Aikido in another place and claimed she can roll out of everything without breakfalling like in judo just rolling or using a very soft roll like breakfall.

She came to my Sensei dojo as part of some M.A. meeting we held. Already during the warm-up, she tried to demonstrate that breakfall while I threw her, not full force, and failed.

I believe it is a matter of two elements:

1. How close are you to 'Szczepan concept' of "Uke can not go wrong, and Tori is responsible for successful technique execution"?

* If Uke is responsible for the technique sucess, he can get out however he wishes to. If Tori is responsible for harmony, and really throws, Uke may find himself in many unpleasent situations unless he knows multiple ways of breakfalling and rolling.

2. Where is your throw directed ? some throw away, we throw just in front of out feet - unless there is reason (another attacker).
* Throwing away gives energy to the roll (I actually used it as a way of helping student roll). Throwing downwards requires a smaller roll unless Uke started very early (and that might be inrealistic if Tori is in control).

Amir

Ron Tisdale
10-29-2008, 03:33 PM
Nice Post Amir. Good to read you again. That matches pretty closely to my thoughts.

Best,
Ron

ChrisMoses
10-29-2008, 03:46 PM
I recall a friend who practiced Aikido in another place and claimed she can roll out of everything without breakfalling like in judo just rolling or using a very soft roll like breakfall.

She came to my Sensei dojo as part of some M.A. meeting we held. Already during the warm-up, she tried to demonstrate that breakfall while I threw her, not full force, and failed.



Ah, the "soft ukemi" phenomenon. I can't stand it. Only works in a very specific environment and you have to know how to take 'real' ukemi anyway in case you train with someone who actually knows how to throw with kuzushi. We had a guy train with us briefly who was training with another group that used the soft ukemi. He came in saying that you could use if for any throw in aikido. He never once found an opportunity to use it while studying with us.

C. David Henderson
10-29-2008, 08:18 PM
Ouch?

DonMagee
10-29-2008, 10:11 PM
Ah, the "soft ukemi" phenomenon. I can't stand it. Only works in a very specific environment and you have to know how to take 'real' ukemi anyway in case you train with someone who actually knows how to throw with kuzushi. We had a guy train with us briefly who was training with another group that used the soft ukemi. He came in saying that you could use if for any throw in aikido. He never once found an opportunity to use it while studying with us.

You know, if it was possible to roll out of every technique, you could eventually (just by a law of averages and good cardio) win the fight. You attack, get thrown, roll out, get up, and attack until you eventually hurt your aiki target. This means I could further my secret goal of teaching everyone how to beat aikido attackers by giving free tumbling classes (just kidding :-))

Amir Krause
10-30-2008, 04:02 AM
Ah, the "soft ukemi" phenomenon. I can't stand it. Only works in a very specific environment and you have to know how to take 'real' ukemi anyway in case you train with someone who actually knows how to throw with kuzushi. We had a guy train with us briefly who was training with another group that used the soft ukemi. He came in saying that you could use if for any throw in aikido. He never once found an opportunity to use it while studying with us.

I am not against soft Ukemi. Our current mat is very thin and over concrete. It hardly absorbs the fall. Hence I prefer to soft Ukemi (avoid the slap) or roll. Soft Ukemi is martially preferble, you can continue fighting faster... But, it is not always possible.

An Aikido practitioner should have all the options, for him to choose from, on the spot during his ukemi. If you do not know to really breakfall, you might get into problem with some throws and people. If you do, you will likely remain rather safe within the dojo.

In fact, for me so far, breakfalls have proven to be the most effective real street S.D. technique learnt in Aikido. Since learning them, I saved myself multiple fractures from attacks by innate objects. At least some of the attacks included trapping a foot, so I could not roll and had to hard breakfall forward. The training resulted in my getting up with only a few sratches.

Amir

ChrisMoses
10-30-2008, 12:27 PM
I am not against soft Ukemi. Our current mat is very thin and over concrete. It hardly absorbs the fall. Hence I prefer to soft Ukemi (avoid the slap) or roll. Soft Ukemi is martially preferble, you can continue fighting faster... But, it is not always possible.



Nothing wrong with quiet falls. Around here "Soft Ukemi" is almost a trademarked term for a very particular kind of ukemi, kind of similar to the Donovan Waite stuff.

Here's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kItc4PJtCa4) one example of what I'm talking about. Of particular concern to me is how long uke's head is pointed straight down at the ground during the fall.

Mary Eastland
10-30-2008, 04:55 PM
Ah, the "soft ukemi" phenomenon. I can't stand it. Only works in a very specific environment and you have to know how to take 'real' ukemi anyway in case you train with someone who actually knows how to throw with kuzushi. We had a guy train with us briefly who was training with another group that used the soft ukemi. He came in saying that you could use if for any throw in aikido. He never once found an opportunity to use it while studying with us.
Wow,.... there are so many ways to say my aikido is better than yours....I thought I read somewhere on this site where Jun asked us not to do that...:D
I can take dependable ukemi when my balance is taken without taking a breakfall....:cool:
Mary

Lorien Lowe
10-30-2008, 05:18 PM
Breakfalls may not always be necessary, but they are often fun.

Seeing yudansha get tossed across the room, roll gracefully, and come up with a grin on their faces was what set the aikido hook for me when I started training. I felt my whole body say, 'I want to be able to do that.'

Sometimes it stings a little bit, but more often it feels good to me. It feels like the impact of each foot when I run - the aligned whole-body 'omph' that makes me feel incredibly solid and totally real for just an instant. And it can be great for a stiff muscle in the shoulder.

James Edwards
10-30-2008, 06:41 PM
There's a story that one of Chiba sensei's students did a backward roll into someone, broke his neck and died. From that point Chiba sensei started teaching his students to do backward breakfalls instead with the signature double slap. The breakfall is not directly to the back as well but more to the side.

ChrisMoses
10-31-2008, 12:10 PM
Wow,.... there are so many ways to say my aikido is better than yours....I thought I read somewhere on this site where Jun asked us not to do that...:D
I can take dependable ukemi when my balance is taken without taking a breakfall....:cool:
Mary

Actually, I'm not saying "mine's better" at all. I expressed a preference (against) and followed it up with real reasons why I have that *opinion* (safety and lack of usefulness in the way I train). I also specifically mentioned that it works in it's own environment. We do not project our throws or support uke, we throw straight down after breaking balance, this kind of ukemi simply doesn't work for that type of training. I do think this kind of ukemi builds a false confidence in what one is actually capable of falling from, an opinion echoed by several folks I know who actively study this kind of training.

ChrisMoses
10-31-2008, 12:39 PM
Missed my edit window...

Mary, I also wanted to point out that I don't see any of the "Soft Ukemi™" in videos on your site. I too can take some very quiet falls but all of which I consider a subset of 'normal' ukemi. Soft Ukemi™ is not the same as quiet ukemi or non-breakfall ukemi, it's a very particular style of falling.

Michael Douglas
10-31-2008, 02:55 PM
...In fact, for me so far, breakfalls have proven to be the most effective real street S.D. technique learnt in Aikido. Since learning them, I saved myself multiple fractures from attacks by innate objects. At least some of the attacks included trapping a foot, so I could not roll and had to hard breakfall forward. The training resulted in my getting up with only a few sratches.
I'll second that!

Douglas Fajardo
10-31-2008, 07:24 PM
of course is necessary to learn how to fall ´cause that is your defend againts your enemy´s tecnique

Amir Krause
11-04-2008, 03:19 AM
Nothing wrong with quiet falls. Around here "Soft Ukemi" is almost a trademarked term for a very particular kind of ukemi, kind of similar to the Donovan Waite stuff.

Here's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kItc4PJtCa4) one example of what I'm talking about. Of particular concern to me is how long uke's head is pointed straight down at the ground during the fall.

Oops

Did not know the "Soft Ukemi™" first sight of those.
So I would rather refrain from giving an opinion until I see someone trying them here.
The Ukemi style attempted in my story seemed different.

Amir

grondahl
12-11-2008, 02:33 AM
This demo of Jorma Lyly and Jan Nevelius contains some of the softest ukemi I´ve seen live. The soft falls starts from ca 1:35 in Nevelius part of the demo.

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=og918YEJyBI

Russ Q
12-11-2008, 03:23 PM
Hmmm..., I'm working on landing softly and silently from tobu ukemi. I usually slap the mat pretty hard and I know that wouldn't bode well on concrete. As for the need for tobu ukemi a couple of thoughts:

Was at a seminar where Ellis Amdur was the instructor. We were all around 2nd to 4th kyu so he was showing us "proper" ukemi for most of the weekend (as he often put it "from an aikido training POV). He was of the opinion that learning tobu ukemi was important. He mentioned he was training at a seminar and the instructor demonstrated shihonage. Amdur sensei then proceeded to practise with one this instructors high ranking students. As uke he began turning into the throw (which would result in tobu ukemi). His partner said: "You don't need to do that, I'm a nice guy" presuming, I guess, that he meant he would not crank the cut down hard and fast. Of course, as soon as Amdur sensei relaxed, tori cranked down hard and fast. Amdur sensei recieved the energy via tobu ukemi and saved himself a nasty injury. This is the example as I remember it told. My apologies to Amdur sensei if I have taken any liberties.

Secondly, I was at a seminar with George Ledyard Sensei this past weekend. I was lucky enough to be uke for a considerable time. We were doing some ryotedori sumio toshi and there was one instance where he led my movement in such a way that I was in the air (tobu ukemi style) and on the way down before I felt him touch me. No way that could've resulted in any other kind of ukemi (as far as I'm concerned...:-)

So, from a training POV, I think tobu ukemi (conditional upon your body being able to "get there") is necessary and useful.

Cheers,

Russ

creinig
12-12-2008, 10:40 AM
Just for the fun of it, here's one of my favorite aikido clips which contains a couple of throws that require a little skill in breakfalling. Then and when.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6Y3WZuUtVo

Of course, the instructor demonstrating there is considered kinda extreme by some, but I don't think that invalidates the point ;)

Misogi-no-Gyo
12-13-2008, 12:43 AM
Maybe the OP's question is more to the point than the follow-ups.
Why is it that under full resistance-breakfalls aren't usually needed? Huh? Full resistance to what, empty handed techniques? What about an attacker armed with a Jo?

I think considering the dynamic in grappling is a smart place to start. There, breakfalls are more difficult to get. I think there is a great deal of fallacy in the Japanese nage / /Uke training model that states that Many of the more dangerous techniques had to either be removed or practiced slowly.I would agree. When I hear that, I know someone is just repeating something they heard, not something they actually researched to any real depth.

I've suggested or flat out stated in several threads that fighting back "changes" the dynamics in the human frame and mindset that greatly affects how the body responds. Under stress many of these supposedly "deadly" and "dangerous" techniques actually prove to be highly improbable and in many cases a practical impossibility. When you consider these waza were supposedly meant to work when tried against the "supposedly equally trained warrior" the improbability goes not from the how effective "it is" but whether "it ever was."
True, and I wouldn't have thought different until I saw am interesting demonstration regarding Nodo-Tsuki-Age (forward lunge to the throat). This technique is very easy to resist when applied by most Nage in most cases. However, replace that same attack with a good lunge to the throat using a wooden Jo and the break fall not only makes sense, it is about the only way to not have your windpipe damaged.

I think a lot of these waza. were invented after and between any war, by an older version of bored farmers and suburbanites with Japanese names. Most experienced grapplers-which was what these warriors were supposed to be-would never let you get that joint that way, the body dynamic, would for the most part, deny the opportunity. And their response to an atemi, would never be to jump or roll away from it, but to counter and throw or punch, kick, and head butt the crap out of you for trying. Again, true, but most bushi were well armed and trained to disarm their opponent or attack them when they were off guard as part of their attack.

If folks are having fun thats great, but its nice to have fun and maintain a more level headed understanding of the probablities in using waza as a cop, or as a defense against an ever growng "grappling-aware" public so that in a self-defense situation you're not expecting something that isnlt going to happen and are at least more aware of what and who you may be actually playing at and with. Very true, again. However, the higher level goal of martial arts is to learn to avoid attacks all together. Ukemi as an exploration of ones own fears, along with the physical training required to open up the hip power required for some of the higher level ukemi certainly can lead to one's own improvement. Additionally, learning to relax and be open, as opposed to "fighting back" all the time for the sake of "changing the dynamic" is the way of Aikido. Ukemi is about receiving the waza as a means of transmission of the gokui, as only the uke, not the spectators can really get a sense of what the Nage is really doing to any real depth.

...Enjoy

.

mickeygelum
12-14-2008, 08:03 AM
Y'all forgot about armor and antiquated battle methodologies. Modern interpretations fail, akin to a Amish IT conglomeration...:)

Mickey

John Matsushima
12-14-2008, 11:30 AM
I think that the ability to do breakfalls is not necessary to training. In my experience, a skilled Aikido practitioner will make me do a breakfall whether I like it or not and if he wants to make it hurt, then it's gonna hurt.

What I think is more important is the ability of the nage to get someone to do that breakfall. And that is part of an even greater ability; the ability to control one's own technique and power. Being able to throw someone into a hard breakfall is one thing, but I think that being able to determine when, where, and how your uke will fall is really skillfull.

As far as injury, I'm not sure that knowing how to do a breakfall could protect one's self from injury. In my experience, when someone got a good one on me, my head still popped back and hit the mat even though I had it tucked and slapped the mat and did everything right. The force was just to great and my neck couldn't take it. I wasn't injured, but I don't want to do that again. I read somewhere, maybe it was Aikido Journal, that there are a number of recorded cases in Japan of deaths from serious breakfalls where uke's head hit the mat so hard and died from brain injury.