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MM
09-15-2008, 03:35 PM
I am one step away from closing this thread due to personal attacks and discussions.

Address the topic -- not the person.

Shape up, folks.

-- Jun

It's your site, Jun. What you do is entirely your decision.

However, I will point out my disappointment here.

1. This is the non-aikido traditions forum. This is not what Erick learns and/or teaches.

2. A great many topics here deal directly with Dan, Mike, and Akuzawa, their experiences, their teachings, and the people who have met and/or trained with them. Erick is not on any of those lists.

3. Erick has consistently posted that he knows and/or understands what Dan or Ark or Sagawa is doing. He does so when *every* person who has trained with the above people (Dan, Mike, Ark) tells him he doesn't. He does so even when those specified people tell him he isn't understanding.

4. To close this thread, which would be a third thread, because someone from the real aikido world decides to tell those teachers in the non-aikido world what they are doing -- and gets it all wrong ... well, that action is wrong, in my opinion.

I think you are a stand up guy. I am glad I got to meet you. I always thank you for what you've done here with Aikiweb. But, I won't stand silently by when I think some action is not right. And closing this thread would be denying all of us who post here in the non-aikido forum to continue our conversation ... all because one person who doesn't have the training, doesn't have the teaching, can't do the examples given, calls people liars, and regularly brings discord into a thread. That just isn't right to me.

Thank you,
Mark

akiy
09-15-2008, 04:20 PM
I have moved this post to the Announcements and Feedback forum. I will try to make some time later to address the thoughts and concerns above.

-- Jun

Ron Tisdale
09-15-2008, 04:43 PM
I probably should keep my mouth shut, but hey...

Mark, I agree with your over all assessment I think, but I have two problems:

1) this is Jun's house

2) We can ignore Erick. We don't have to respond to or engage him. That is our choice...if things continually go down hill when we respond to him or engage him, we certainly can become aware of that and...

STOP.

Best,
Ron

MM
09-15-2008, 05:00 PM
I probably should keep my mouth shut, but hey...

Mark, I agree with your over all assessment I think, but I have two problems:

1) this is Jun's house

2) We can ignore Erick. We don't have to respond to or engage him. That is our choice...if things continually go down hill when we respond to him or engage him, we certainly can become aware of that and...

STOP.

Best,
Ron

Hi Ron,
I agree with #1. And it might be just me ... if so, please thump me upside the head. :) But, closing a thread because one person brings discord is like punishing a whole classroom because one person won't listen to the teacher.

2. I just talked to someone else about this. Ignoring Erick is all well and good for those of us who have had the luck to train with Dan, Mike, and Ark. We've felt the truth. There are many who haven't been as lucky. To leave Erick post on and on with nothing but disinformation, wrong information, and pointing to the wrong training would give all those people conflicting ideas about what it is we have been talking about. And personally, I am all for trying to get *everyone* a chance to train in this, have knowledge of this, and be able to get better. Leaving Erick to muddy the waters would only hinder new people, those who are on the fence, or those who don't know better yet.

All IMO, anyway,
Mark

TomW
09-15-2008, 05:03 PM
I probably should keep my mouth shut, but hey...

Mark, I agree with your over all assessment I think, but I have two problems:

1) this is Jun's house

2) We can ignore Erick. We don't have to respond to or engage him. That is our choice...if things continually go down hill when we respond to him or engage him, we certainly can become aware of that and...

STOP.

Best,
Ron

Well said Ron, well said.

gdandscompserv
09-15-2008, 05:23 PM
Use da scroll wheel!:D

TomW
09-15-2008, 07:00 PM
Hi Ron,

2. I just talked to someone else about this. Ignoring Erick is all well and good for those of us who have had the luck to train with Dan, Mike, and Ark. We've felt the truth. There are many who haven't been as lucky. To leave Erick post on and on with nothing but disinformation, wrong information, and pointing to the wrong training would give all those people conflicting ideas about what it is we have been talking about. And personally, I am all for trying to get *everyone* a chance to train in this, have knowledge of this, and be able to get better. Leaving Erick to muddy the waters would only hinder new people, those who are on the fence, or those who don't know better yet.

All IMO, anyway,
Mark

Mark, I can certainly see your point here, but I would suggest that in this case, on the forums here, the "waters" are as transparent as it gets. All the information, anecdotes, and opinions, right or wrong, are laid out side by side for everyone to read and decide for themselves what they want to spend their time on.

While the small "stream or two" of opinion may be muddying the "waters", splashing around seems to muddy the waters as much as the small stream itself. It's a small stream and getting more dilute by the day as people gain experience.

Seems to me that's about as good as it gets, FWIW.

Peter Goldsbury
09-15-2008, 07:39 PM
As an interested bystander, who has read the thread, I think I have to comment here. My comments are directed at your post, Mark, because it is the opening post. Comments are marked PAG.

It's your site, Jun. What you do is entirely your decision.

However, I will point out my disappointment here.
PAG. Yes. I believe that Jun sometimes uses the principle of kenka ryo-seibai, (equal chastisement for all sides regardless of the reason behind the conflict) and demands an end to personal attacks and sometimes I do this on E-Budo as well (especially in Bad/Baffling Budo). However, it can be seen as unfair to those who feel that they have done nothing wrong.

1. This is the non-aikido traditions forum. This is not what Erick learns and/or teaches.
PAG. I do not think this matters. I read every thread that appears on this website, including this one and would post if I thought I had something to say, or that needed saying.

2. A great many topics here deal directly with Dan, Mike, and Akuzawa, their experiences, their teachings, and the people who have met and/or trained with them. Erick is not on any of those lists.
PAG. Again, I do not think this matters. I have met Akuzawa Sensei once and also teach aikido students who have met him and trained with him. They want to continue and I, too, want to train with him for the same reasons that you and Rob Liberti train with Dan Harden. So I am not on any lists either, but I do not think that this is relevant to whether I post here or not.

3. Erick has consistently posted that he knows and/or understands what Dan or Ark or Sagawa is doing. He does so when *every* person who has trained with the above people (Dan, Mike, Ark) tells him he doesn't. He does so even when those specified people tell him he isn't understanding.
PAG. I think there are two issues here. (1) Whether a person actually understands what Dan Ark or Sagawa is doing. (2) Who and how one tells a person that he/she does not understand. I think the second is a much more delicate issue, especially on the Internet.

4. To close this thread, which would be a third thread, because someone from the real aikido world decides to tell those teachers in the non-aikido world what they are doing -- and gets it all wrong ... well, that action is wrong, in my opinion.
PAG. Well, this is an aikido forum and I personally am against setting up boundaries within the forum, especially if the boundaries relate to a rather ill-defined area of what a person 'knows' and are such as to exclude someone who does not, apparently 'know'.

I think you are a stand up guy. I am glad I got to meet you. I always thank you for what you've done here with Aikiweb. But, I won't stand silently by when I think some action is not right. And closing this thread would be denying all of us who post here in the non-aikido forum to continue our conversation ... all because one person who doesn't have the training, doesn't have the teaching, can't do the examples given, calls people liars, and regularly brings discord into a thread. That just isn't right to me.
PAG. This is exactly why I decided to post this. I think the Internet imposes a certain kind of self-discipline on users and I personally believe that it is equally offensive to to tell someone publicly that he does not know what he is talking about as it is to call someone a liar. In both cases the person's good name & reputation is damaged. This, also, makes me uncomfortable. Sometimes, I feel that playground tactics are being used: the teacher is called because a child is not playing a game according to the rules set by the larger group.

Thank you,
Mark
PAG. Mark, I have great respect for you and the issues you raise in threads such as these. So these comments are not meant as a criticism. Perhaps threads such as these, which deal with issues not generally known to aikidoists in general, call for more active moderating than usual, but I doubt that Jun has either the time or the stomach for this. It's his call.

Incidentally, Erick has raised a number of points over on the Transmission thread about my latest column. I have the choice whether to respond in detail, or briefly, or not at all--and leave others to judge the reasonableness of what he states.

Best regards,

PAG

Janet Rosen
09-15-2008, 08:05 PM
On the mat, I am responsible for my training. My partner's training is NOT my responsibility except if it endangers me. Other people when I'm not partnered with them, not my business.

Same here. I'm responsible for my opinions and my posts. I may chose to engage in a bit of a debate (as I did in raising some questions for Mark in the Aikido and Dynamic Sphere topic). But it is not my job to prevent other people from saying things.

It IS possible in a thread to ignore a specific post and continue to have give and take with other posters.

rob_liberti
09-15-2008, 09:00 PM
Telling someone they cannot post on a forum rubs me the wrong way no matter what they are saying. Sorry Mark, I understand your point, but I'm not willing to go there to that degree with you.

I am a bit sick of threads I'm posting in getting shut down. Maybe we can figure out a compromise here? Where the pointless bickering posts just pulled out to open discussions or something?

Rob

Ellis Amdur
09-16-2008, 02:05 AM
I just talked to someone else about this. Ignoring Erick is all well and good for those of us who have had the luck to train with Dan, Mike, and Ark. We've felt the truth. There are many who haven't been as lucky. To leave Erick post on and on with nothing but disinformation, wrong information, and pointing to the wrong training would give all those people conflicting ideas about what it is we have been talking about. And personally, I am all for trying to get *everyone* a chance to train in this, have knowledge of this, and be able to get better. Leaving Erick to muddy the waters would only hinder new people, those who are on the fence, or those who don't know better yet.

I do my level best to stay out of these threads, but this is aesthetically unpleasing. I personally am fascinating with internal training - but I think the world - AND martial arts - can do just fine without it. And not only that. I believe that there are myriads of people who train in pure aikido - let's say for 10 years - who could defeat in a fight someone who trained in internal training an equal amount of time. a) because there are lots of lousy teachers of this stuff b) there are even more lousy students c) a number of internal training folks are like the zen priest in Mike S.'s oft-quoted story, pushed off the veranda by Tohei because his center only "worked" under his own conditions. [can it potentially vastly enhance one's abilities - I believe that it is an avenue exactly towards the end.
Other than fighting, what's the advantage? Silly question? But so is so much of this debate. It is cool, beyond a doubt. But as far as health goes, t'ai chi guys don't seem to live any longer than wrestlers or Shaolin practitioners. Spiritual? Haven't yet met any internal martial arts saints. In fact, kick boxers were the most solid people I met when training in Japan. Psychological health? Puleeze. Internal martial arts are a petrie dish of psychological pathology. Ahh, this being American political season, where umbrage has been raised to a fine art - I didn't mean you, whoever you are, taking offense at this moment. I meant that other person.
Anyway, I personally think internal training is absolutely a wonderful study. It is becoming a consuming interest of mine. But so, for others, is pure modern aikido, without any focus on it whatsoever. In short, Mark, I dislike the "good news," in which everyone must get a chance, must be converted as much as I dislike the good news that missionaries try to give me when they come, unsolicited, to my house. You write as if people NEED to be saved from something awful - and honestly, none of this is all that important in the larger scheme of things. Adopting a child is important. Shihonage with ki or without is not. It's just interesting.
In short, when one goes beyond to derision at the benighted ignorance of the majority of the people interested in aikido, or believes that this stuff is so important that everyone must have it - and/or must be saved from the terrible form of martial arts they are now doing, it's bad taste or even worse, bad religion.
People here are adults. They do not need to be protected from the evil thoughts of Eric Mead, man-of-myriads-of words.
I remember once seeing a terrible demo of a group in Japan, and expressing outrage that the teacher could get away with conning his students the way he did. My own instructor said, "People get exactly the teacher they are looking for. If they truly wanted something else, they would go out and find it."
Best

gdandscompserv
09-16-2008, 07:27 AM
Ellis,
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b379/deserthippie/bowdown.gif

Kevin Leavitt
09-16-2008, 07:58 AM
Thank you Ellis for your perspective. It is an important one.

salim
09-16-2008, 08:23 AM
I have moved this post to the Announcements and Feedback forum. I will try to make some time later to address the thoughts and concerns above.

-- Jun

Juan,

We are all adults here. Perhaps your sensitivity level is too high or your ambiguous perceptions of another persons feelings towards another, is pure speculation. We should be able to express ourselves without the over ambitious policing, overly concerning yourself on the meaning of another persons comments. This website is not composed of children who need their hand held or told what can and can't be said. True, it's your site and you can do as you please, but really you will just turn more and more people away that don't have your mentality. Open mindedness is a virtue that we all can benefit from. I wonder how many people find your monitoring tactics insulting to their intellect?

MM
09-16-2008, 08:31 AM
Wow, Ron, Tom, Peter, Rob, Janet, and Ellis. Either I've put my foot in my mouth or it's a worthy topic. :)

Thank you for the posts.

Tom,
The people who do have experience still are an insignificant number to those that don't. And to read someone who doesn't and posts as if he completely understands really does create confusion.

Peter,
Ah, thank you for the principle of kenka ryo-seibai. I was ignorant of that. It is, as all can probably tell, a pet peeve of mine. It is a principle I do not hold to. Punishing others (closing the thread) who are not part of the problem (I include me as part of the problem) is not a principle I agree with.

While this is a delicate issue, I watched as Mike and Rob and Dan posted, each in their own words, and yet all three understood each other. Erick, as noted by *everyone* who trains does not understand. Sometimes things can be clear and simple. Had Erick posted in a non-authoritative voice, I don't think we'd have this thread or this discussion. However, that is not the case. He posts from authority, one in which he does not have. And that has caused issues from quite a bit of people in the non-martial forum.

As noted, Dan, Mike, and Rob were all called upon what they posted. Each was told publicly that they did not know what they were talking about. In fact, they are still being told that in other venues. But, each has demonstrated their understanding, whether online or in person(mostly). Erick has not, nor do I believe he will.

Thank you for your post and words. Although I find myself in somewhat of a differing opinion, I think your post was the one that cleared up some things for me. Thank you for that.

Janet,
Thank you for your posts in the other thread. They really are appreciated. But, just as someone is held accountable for yelling fire in a crowded theatre, so, too, are people held accountable for things posted. Yes, it is an extreme example does not fit all that well, but the general idea is the same. Or, pardon my butchering, all that is needed for evil to prosper is for good to do nothing. All that is needed for confusion is to let Erick keep posting authoritatively on things he is not an authority.

Rob,
I don't want to tell someone they can't post on a forum. I just think that when there is one person causing this much confusion and threads get closed ... the issue isn't closing threads, it isn't all the other people in the thread ... rather than patching the outward symptoms, why not address the root problem? Personally, I think if Erick had the experience and was training this, he'd probably come up with some biomechanical explanation that would be interesting.

And Ellis,
Wow, I thought I'd never say this ... but reading your post, all I can think was that you missed my point. And my intent. Sorry. I reread it multiple times, but you went in a tangent that I never thought about. Internal and fighting? spiritual? everyone getting a chance and must convert everyone? The people reading in the non-aikido forums are there for a reason, so yeah, I'd like to see them get a chance at training and understanding. So, when someone comes along who posts authoritatively on the subject and by all purposes does not have the understanding, then it irks me when threads are shut down. Now, information and discourse are no longer flowing. People don't know who to believe and closing threads only sows more confusion -- no one gets a feeling of who or why it was closed. Punishing all for one or a few. Not my cup of tea.

People are adults, yes. But if I started posting authoritatively on Araki ryu as if I were menkyo kaiden and knew everything about what was supposed to be trained, how it was trained, and biomechanically what to do to train -- and then when you decided to post, threads were shut down. Who would know what to believe? You, of course. Most people know you. Here, the situation is different and most don't have any idea about who or what to believe. Some of what is posted by Mike, Dan, Ark on what they can do *is* hard to believe. So, information is a good thing. And people usually don't just bump into the right teacher. Somewhere along the line, they've gathered information and at some point, make a choice. Getting disinformation on subjects that they don't know or understand can create bad choices.

Eh, maybe I'm wrong. But, not today. Not here. Not now. How Erick has been posting in the non-aikido forums is wrong. Closing threads when people object to Erick's posts is wrong. It is that simple. I draw the line when the many are punished for the few or one.

Ron Tisdale
09-16-2008, 09:22 AM
Salim,

Jun is not Juan (who is Juan, anyway??), and I personally found your post insulting, not Jun's actions.

Best,
Ron

salim
09-16-2008, 09:40 AM
Salim,

Jun is not Juan (who is Juan, anyway??), and I personally found your post insulting, not Jun's actions.

Best,
Ron
Oops, slip of the finger. Jun, sorry for the misspelled name.
We are all adults and should be able to accept constructive criticism. What's insulting about not wanting to be policed or monitoring for every little comment, that can be perceived one way or another?

Fred Little
09-16-2008, 09:45 AM
I draw the line when the many are punished for the few or one.

Mark,

It's Jun's forum and Jun gets to draw the lines.

It's really that simple.

Best,

Fred Little

MM
09-16-2008, 09:48 AM
Mark,

It's Jun's forum and Jun gets to draw the lines.

It's really that simple.

Best,

Fred Little

Hi Fred,
Meant that personally. Not as in AikiWeb control. I agree with you there.

Ellis Amdur
09-16-2008, 09:49 AM
Mark - I shan't go back-and-forth on this too much. But let's use your example. You start posting on Araki-ryu. You start posting opinions, theories and the like. I'd respond once or twice, I'm sure, in good faith. Then I'd make a statement that you didn't know what you were talking about and that I would ignore any post you made in the future, and would not participate in any dialogue generated by your posts. In fact, that's exactly what I do with a lot of people.
Returning to the subject at hand, let's say I've only peripherally heard of this internal stuff. I live in Seattle. An expert (take your pick) is coming through and I want to sign up for the seminar. Then I read one of Erick's posts.. And then, because of this, I don't even go to the seminar, either because he convinced me it's b.s. or because I'm still reading his posts, which are VERY long, and I miss the seminar time. Too bad for me. The kind of person who would be dissuaded from going for such a reason would never do the work anyway. The kind of person who would go, but would be so "confused" by the post that they couldn't perceive the evidence even when they felt it would never do the work.
If you want to discuss things with Erick or some others I can think of, that's on your dime. John McCain's statement on wrestling with pigs comes to mind, though. And finally, I've only seen Jun close threads when things get personal. If you or others go into discussions with the best intentions, and end up losing your temper arguing with someone who is, from your lights, talking nonsense, then it begs the question on another kind of "internal strength."
Best
Ellis

phitruong
09-16-2008, 10:17 AM
was going to stay out of this, but my internal is weak, bad stomach really. :)

that phrase about "I might not agree with what you say, but will defend to death your right to say it." (something along that line). I lived under a communist government for a number of years, so I knew a bit about freedom of speech and its power to the masses. I also knew that the greatest weapon against freedom of speech isn't censorship, but it is the right to ignore. fight for your freedom and choose your right. also, freedom is a power, and power comes with responsibility.

damn! why am i keep rambling on and on? must be some internal stuffs that are not working right. :D

Janet Rosen
09-16-2008, 10:25 AM
Mark, it simply is not your responsibility to "correct" others' posts, even in the guise of some higher responsibility to "others" who might be "confused." Like Ellis says, this is not life and death. This is flavors of m.a. and opinions.

And because I believe this, this will also be my last posting on this thread. Folks will believe/act as they will regardless.

Jun, keep up the good work.

MM
09-16-2008, 11:01 AM
So, with all the idea that everyone has a right to talk and it isn't our responsibility to correct other people, why do we ban users? Why do we complain to Jun about certain people's posts? In the hopes that they will be banned? It's definitely been done here with certain people. And overlooked with other people.

Keith Larman
09-16-2008, 11:28 AM
As a guy who is admin on another forum...

I think Jun is doing an *amazing* job. And what Fred said about that is the "first truth" to consider -- this is Jun's house. What Jun says goes. Nothing more needs to be said.

On the difficulties... The issue isn't whether Erick is right, wrong, or even seriously deluded. As long as Jun feels he's not strayed from the rules as Jun sees them, well, there you go.

I've also got to say that I would like to think the majority of people reading are quite capable of reading between the lines and making up their own minds, thank you very much. I tend to read all new messages here and I must admit that there are times when I want to yell at both sides of this debate "Okay, okay, we heard you the first 8000 times..." Man, at times it's like getting stuck at a family get together with that weird uncle that discovered religion late in life and just can't understand why everyone else doesn't want to discuss it with him... Ad nauseum... On and on, never ending, constantly recycling...

Sometimes the posts remind me of kids with shiny new toys. Their entire world revolves around that one shiny thing. And the perception of the value of everything around them seems to hinge on whether they can use the toy with it. It gets old...

But... Hey, post away. I *do* read them all. I *do* hope to get out and train with some of these guys to see for myself. I'd just like to say I think I have a sufficient intelligence level to reads everyones' posts without needing someone else to protect me from the awesome mind control powers of individual posters... "These are not the droids you're looking for..." Wave hand here.

In terms of insults -- I've seen some pretty nasty posts from both sides over the years. Some very heated posts. And it seems to me that if I'm reading them, well, they ain't being censored on either side. Which I'm fine with. As I said earlier, your words define you. And I'd like to think the rest of us aren't all that stupid that we can't figure it out for ourselves.

Trolling is something totally different. But being an admin for one of these things is *incredibly* difficult. Because people do start to demand that others get banned because they don't agree with them. Or they feel insulted or slighted. Or they feel they're not getting the respect they deserve. Well, my reply to most on forums I admin is to get used to it or don't post. It isn't a perfect medium. And it never will be.

akiy
09-16-2008, 11:38 AM
Hi everyone,

I found myself busy last night with keiko and am finding myself busy this morning with work, so I don't have much time. I just wanted to say, though, that I appreciate everyone's concerns regarding the manner of moderation and expected behavior here on AikiWeb and also to say a few words before I bury myself under a few projects here at work.

I believe that communication happens most effectively through respectful dialog. As such, I do not want to cultivate a "community" where disrespectful language, tone, and manner run rampant. I believe that honest criticism, difficult topics, and even strong disagreements can be shared and addressed without employing divisive, corrosive language and without targeting the person. These unnecessary behaviors are the biggest contributors to why I end up closing threads. I have tried, from the beginning, to allow people to discuss what they want; I am more concerned about how you conduct your discussions here on AikiWeb.

Lastly, if you feel that the moderation here on AikiWeb is not to your liking, there are many other venues, online and elsewhere, for expressing your thoughts. I certainly do not want to push anyone elsewhere, but please understand that you are as free to go someplace else that will make you content as you are to stay here and respect the spirit of this website. Personally, I would prefer to have a smaller community that is respectful and conducive to a positive community than its alternatives.

I'll try to come back with more thoughts later. Until then, thank for sharing all of yours, folks.

Best,

-- Jun

Dan Austin
09-16-2008, 02:11 PM
Not that my opinion matters, but there does seem to be a bias, intentional or not, in moderating these threads. I was banned for two weeks for suggesting that a person who continually pollutes discussions when he has been called out for lack of knowledge or willingness to meet up with anyone to verify his knowledge might have some issues. OK, maybe that didn't need to be said, because it's pretty obvious, and it isn't the kind of interaction Jun wants on his site. To address Salim's comment, yes, it does feel a little insulting to be prevented from pointing out offensive behavior. This is especially the case when I see for example William Hazen calling Rob John a jerk, and I didn't see any gap in his posting. Erick insults people indirectly on a regular basis, sometimes directly as with the use of the word "liar" recently, and he's allowed to keep on trucking. It is what it is. I knew I was on dicey ground. ;) Overall Jun has been quite tolerant in allowing discussions of a subject that causes controversy, so asking for a lack of any bias against those who are outside the Aikido mainstream may be a bit much. After all how could it be Aikido if there's no politics? ;)

The other day I saw that the non-Aikido forum had more active readers than the General forum. On most days the non-Aikido forum seems to be the second most active. Human nature being what it is, a free-for-all unmoderated area would probably be the most popular on the site, and many sites have an "enter at your own risk" unmoderated area, but Jun has a vision of the kind of site he wants and it's been highly successful to date without indulging in that sort of thing. He's been accommodating enough.

Really, the only thing to do that would conform entirely with the site rules is for the regular posters on this topic to agree to ignore Erick until such time as he shows in person that he can demonstrate physically his knowledge of the subject. Anyone who responds to him, including me, really doesn't have a reason to complain about the consequences or how fair they seem.

akiy
09-16-2008, 02:26 PM
Hi folks,

Can you all please stop using this thread and this website to target specific people? Thank you.

As an aside, I'll just say that people are welcome to contact me regarding specific posts containing instances of seemingly egregious behavior. I'm not perfect and I'm sure that I've certainly let instances of such get past me. Besides, as some folks here know firsthand, you'll usually get a warning (or three) before I start imposing posting restrictions, so you may not see people's postings interrupted.

Back to work for me...

-- Jun

Cady Goldfield
09-16-2008, 07:48 PM
My own instructor said, "People get exactly the teacher they are looking for. If they truly wanted something else, they would go out and find it."


Paraphrasing my mother (practicing psychologist, guardian ad litem and family counselor from 1943-2005): The rocks in his head match the holes in theirs.

Cady Goldfield
09-16-2008, 09:05 PM
;) :)

rob_liberti
09-16-2008, 11:12 PM
Can we just make the following points a sticky and not post them in every single thread in this section:

1) this is Jun's website
2) since there is a feedback section and all, one might expect this to be "the place" to disagree with Jun.
3) I'm grateful for this wonderful site, but...

Rob

DH
09-17-2008, 12:05 AM
Mark - I shan't go back-and-forth on this too much. But let's use your example. You start posting on Araki-ryu. You start posting opinions, theories and the like. I'd respond once or twice, I'm sure, in good faith. Then I'd make a statement that you didn't know what you were talking about and that I would ignore any post you made in the future, and would not participate in any dialogue generated by your posts. In fact, that's exactly what I do with a lot of people.
Returning to the subject at hand, let's say I've only peripherally heard of this internal stuff. I live in Seattle. An expert (take your pick) is coming through and I want to sign up for the seminar. Then I read one of Erick's posts.. And then, because of this, I don't even go to the seminar, either because he convinced me it's b.s. or because I'm still reading his posts, which are VERY long, and I miss the seminar time. Too bad for me. The kind of person who would be dissuaded from going for such a reason would never do the work anyway. The kind of person who would go, but would be so "confused" by the post that they couldn't perceive the evidence even when they felt it would never do the work.
If you want to discuss things with Erick or some others I can think of, that's on your dime. John McCain's statement on wrestling with pigs comes to mind, though. And finally, I've only seen Jun close threads when things get personal. If you or others go into discussions with the best intentions, and end up losing your temper arguing with someone who is, from your lights, talking nonsense, then it begs the question on another kind of "internal strength."
Best
Ellis

Good advice
For the first time since I've been here I have added someone to my ignore list. Why? After talking with several guys here its appears that responding to this one person has been the single most common source for a lot of warnings and posting restrictions. So the writing is on the wall-with this guy. Even with his verbiage and comments like calling people Jerks and liars and what not...and his never apologizing for it. For whatever reason, it seems clear... Don't mess with this guy. He's hands off.

So, Ellis's advice comes to the fore. Stop talking to him. If the only way to avoid losing your temper with his open antagonism and purposeful set-ups, tauntings and targeting of our threads is ignore him. Do it. All agree to summarily ignore everything he says and put him on an ignore list, and then stop quoting him in our posts.

Jun has better things to do then to have to keep monitoring. He also stated he would prefer a smaller list where everyone got along-Notice that did not include a desire or support for this new information. Which means to me he would prefer -that- over a larger more informed board where there was antagonism and more trouble for him to have to referee. Seems clear to me that he has better things to do.

So again, his mission statement is clear. He made significant allowances for me, so I am grateful. He even helped me work out issues regarding my approach. So I think if we want to write and share information, then make the changes yourself for yourself.

akiy
09-17-2008, 12:32 AM
Jun has better things to do then to have to keep monitoring. He also stated he would prefer a smaller list where everyone got along-Notice that did not include a desire or support for this new information. Which means to me he would prefer -that- over a larger more informed board where there was antagonism and more trouble for him to have to referee.
Just another quick reply here to clarify that it is not that I want a place where "everyone got along." I'm fine with people not getting along. I'm fine with antagonism. What I am objecting to is the disrespectful rhetoric within discussions as well as people targeting the person rather than their thoughts.

As I wrote:
I believe that communication happens most effectively through respectful dialog. As such, I do not want to cultivate a "community" where disrespectful language, tone, and manner run rampant. I believe that honest criticism, difficult topics, and even strong disagreements can be shared and addressed without employing divisive, corrosive language and without targeting the person.

I hope I am making this distinction clear, as I believe it to be important.

-- Jun

Keith Larman
09-17-2008, 09:20 AM
A memory from my childhood...

Me (all philosophically inclined): "But Dad, Kevin (my brother) isn't listening to me. He won't even listen to facts! All he does is ignore things that I know are true!"

My dad (an engineer): "If he won't listen then why are you still talking to him?"

Me: "Oh..."

:)

Hebrew Hammer
09-17-2008, 10:09 PM
A memory from my childhood...

Me (all philosophically inclined): "But Dad, Kevin (my brother) isn't listening to me. He won't even listen to facts! All he does is ignore things that I know are true!"

My dad (an engineer): "If he won't listen then why are you still talking to him?"

Me: "Oh..."

:)

:D LOL :D if you had only posted this sooner....the Dao of Dad. I see a book in your future.

Erick Mead
09-17-2008, 11:10 PM
After talking with several guys here its appears that responding to this one person has been the single most common source for a lot of warnings and posting restrictions. So the writing is on the wall-with this guy. ... If the only way to avoid losing your temper with his open antagonism and purposeful set-ups, tauntings and targeting of our threads is ignore him. Do it.
御願いします.
http://www.koryu.com/library/dlowry9.html

MM
09-18-2008, 08:14 AM
For the first time since I've been here I have added someone to my ignore list. Why? After talking with several guys here its appears that responding to this one person has been the single most common source for a lot of warnings and posting restrictions. So the writing is on the wall-with this guy. Even with his verbiage and comments like calling people Jerks and liars and what not...and his never apologizing for it. For whatever reason, it seems clear... Don't mess with this guy. He's hands off.


Isn't it amazing how one person can be given a pass while everyone around that one person must pay for his actions? It certainly illustrates a very important concept in budo. There are two kinds of power: that which is given and that which is within.

Some people are given power and it becomes very apparent how they choose to use it. Some examples of being given power might include not having repercussions in a forum, being a forum administrator, etc. All the while, these people might believe they have power, but really it is a fleeting thing that can change when the wind blows.

Power within is never given so it can never be taken away. It is a strong force that can be built to withstand many things. What force could bring Ghandi down? His power of spirit was strong. What force could bring Ueshiba down? His aiki was strong even to his death.

And when it comes down to the wire, to life and death, to things that really matter, which power do you want? The transient stuff that can be shifted, dissolved, taken away? Or the power that is the engine of the body, mind, and spirit? And when you choose, be careful that if you choose the former, you don't lose the slim chance to get the latter.

There is right. There is wrong. I stand by my original posts. Closing threads because the root disruption is one person is wrong. But, as people have noted ... I do not have the given power. Someone else has that ...

gdandscompserv
09-18-2008, 09:01 AM
Isn't it amazing how one person can be given a pass while everyone around that one person must pay for his actions? It certainly illustrates a very important concept in budo. There are two kinds of power: that which is given and that which is within.

Some people are given power and it becomes very apparent how they choose to use it. Some examples of being given power might include not having repercussions in a forum, being a forum administrator, etc. All the while, these people might believe they have power, but really it is a fleeting thing that can change when the wind blows.

Power within is never given so it can never be taken away. It is a strong force that can be built to withstand many things. What force could bring Ghandi down? His power of spirit was strong. What force could bring Ueshiba down? His aiki was strong even to his death.

And when it comes down to the wire, to life and death, to things that really matter, which power do you want? The transient stuff that can be shifted, dissolved, taken away? Or the power that is the engine of the body, mind, and spirit? And when you choose, be careful that if you choose the former, you don't lose the slim chance to get the latter.

There is right. There is wrong. I stand by my original posts. Closing threads because the root disruption is one person is wrong. But, as people have noted ... I do not have the given power. Someone else has that ...
All well and good except for one thing; nobody gave Jun his power. He developed it all on his own and it is 'real' power. He can even make you dissappear.;)

John A Butz
09-18-2008, 09:42 AM
Mark,

I like you and I think you are a stand-up guy. But I have to say that rarely does a thread on the internet devolve into an argument because of the actions of one person. Others have said it before in this thread, but it bears repeating; no matter what someone says or does, you always have the ability to control how you react.

My honest opinion is that a pass is being given to everyone involved in threads that degenerate into arguments and noise. There are people who post on this board with incredibly strong opinions, who argue with anyone that disagrees with them, and use a specific and sometimes difficult to understand set of terms and explanations that are not grasped by the people they are talking at (note please that I am not referring to anyone in particular, but don't assume I am referring to the same individual you might think I am talking about). Jun is very tolerant of every conversation, no matter how heated, that doesn't involve personal attacks; the type of poster described above very often ventures into that territory.

Regarding Peter's comment about correction for everyone involved in a dispute regardless of perceived fault, all I can reference here is a training maxim that has been a staple of my time on the mat: "If you hear a student get corrected, assume you are making the same mistake." I think that this is a valid point, and that everyone involved should keep it in mind.

Mark, I am addressing you mostly because I know you and because I understand why you are passionate about what you are working on. I think that the issues that brought about this conversation are much bigger then just any one person. I also think that the atmosphere of hostility that hovers over every Internal Skills discussion that happens on Aikiweb will do more in the long run to hinder the acquisition of those skills by potentially interested parties then the opinions of any one person.

If I wanted to find a model for dealing with challenging people and conversations, I would look to posters like Don Magee, who patiently goes over the value of alive training so often that he deserves a medal; Kevin L, who has to repeatedly deal with people who make incorrect assumptions about how the military trains martial arts and does so with respect and clarity; and Rob Liberti, who is able to ask clarifiying questions and make statements about the subject being discussed without calling into question the character of the people he is debating with.

With the greatest respect,
--John A Butz

Josh Reyer
09-18-2008, 10:21 AM
If I wanted to find a model for dealing with challenging people and conversations, I would look to posters like Don Magee, who patiently goes over the value of alive training so often that he deserves a medal; Kevin L, who has to repeatedly deal with people who make incorrect assumptions about how the military trains martial arts and does so with respect and clarity; and Rob Liberti, who is able to ask clarifiying questions and make statements about the subject being discussed without calling into question the character of the people he is debating with.

Ron Tisdale, too, whom I've seen handle many a touchy, controversial topic with an aplomb I wish I could muster for something as silly and trivial as linguistic discussions.

akiy
09-18-2008, 10:52 AM
Hi folks,

Another quick post here. Thanks for everyone's thoughts so far.

I'm a bit confused at having the actions of a forum administrator compared to those of Morihei Ueshiba or Gandhi. I guess I'm at a loss as to understanding how a forum administrator should "act" should they subscribe to the notion of "What would Ueshiba/Gandhi do?"

As far as thoughts about having threads closed due to the actions of only one person go, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree in our perceptions of what is going on. At least in the case of the thread which spawned this discussion, I saw more than one person engaging in disrespectful, personal discussions. As such (and perhaps to address the issue of whether people are given "passes"), I'll just say that I gave out more than one user infraction in that particular thread.

Thanks, again, for everyone's feedback.

Best,

-- Jun

Ron Tisdale
09-18-2008, 10:59 AM
Oh Damn, now I'm blushing! :eek: :blush:

Thanks for the kind words. Now, if only I had yours or Peter's intellect, or Dan's rugged good looks! :D

Best,
Ron (I'd settle for a quarter of Dan's aiki, but that power must be earned through sweat...it is not given)

Mike Sigman
09-18-2008, 02:42 PM
At least in the case of the thread which spawned this discussion, I saw more than one person engaging in disrespectful, personal discussions. As such (and perhaps to address the issue of whether people are given "passes"), I'll just say that I gave out more than one user infraction in that particular thread.I've seen many people on many different forums observe, over the years, that Aikido forums have a reputation for passive-aggressive behavior. It's true... although I'd also suggest that the same behaviour can be found in some karate forums, some judo forums, some CMA forums, and so on.

The problem I see is when passive-aggressive posting, sly-but-politely-worded posts, pseudo-polite-but-personally-aimed remarks, etc., are allowed to pass as acceptable behavior and a limited/unrealistic definition of "disrespectful" posting is then applied.

Pretending that sly or passive-aggressive or personal-oriented remarks are not insulting, when they're clearly meant to be, only fuels the problem. I've found that as an admin on other forums when I stop the first sly or personally-oriented oblique comments, I also stop the later escalations. When posters find out that they can't make a chump out of the moderator by couching insults in polite language, they tend to get back on topic and the bickering tapers off. Sure, it doesn't solve all cases of "disrespectful behavior", but it sure stops it from growing.

Go back and look at all the really contentious threads over the past few years and look at how they always start with a few sly, personal digs that don't quite have blatant insults but which are clearly insulting and off-topic. Nip those and you would have nipped the subsequent conflagrations. Unfortunately for the reputation of Aikido, treating passive-aggressive posting as "Aiki-speak" or some such nonsense has done much to color the reputation of Aikido and reflect on its place among other martial arts.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Nicholas Eschenbruch
09-18-2008, 02:55 PM
Mark,
I also think that the atmosphere of hostility that hovers over every Internal Skills discussion that happens on Aikiweb will do more in the long run to hinder the acquisition of those skills by potentially interested parties then the opinions of any one person.
--John A Butz

That is definitely true. One does sometimes get the impression internal skills correlate with missionary zeal, very strong opinions and lots of time to spend on aikiweb, to put it carefully.

Am I one of the lurkers supposedly misguided by wrong posts about internal skills? I dont post a lot for several reasons, but I am interested in the topic, I follow discussions closely and I do get enough information to make up my mind and form a personal opinion (misguided as it may be...). So in the back of my mind, I have a list of people who I am very interested in training with if I ever make it to their countries, one or two I would make quite an effort to meet, and well, I also have people who I put on ignore a long time ago (as they probably did with me). And a list of some of whom I am totally convinced they have skills, but I just would not want to spent time with them. Wrong people on the those lists? Well, probably, but I am an adult after all, my problem.

Also, I think Jun is doing a great service to the aikido community maintaining this site, and his handling of things, especially the internal skills debates, is a great example of applied aikido for me, I stand in awe of that.

Nick

Lan Powers
09-18-2008, 03:31 PM
Verbal aikido has been mentioned before.....I like to think of myself as an "irimi" kind of conversationalist :)
(Just kidding, of course, but what a neat anology to the physical actions you see....neatly tenkan-ing around an "ugly" point in a exchange..)
Just a silly thought. <shrug>
Lan

bkedelen
09-18-2008, 08:54 PM
I've seen many people on many different forums observe

Is it not ironic, then, that you so often shield your own opinions about the people and ideas in this forum by claiming that those opinions were delivered to you from an anonymous group of people outside the forum. How is this not the exact passive/aggressive behavior you decry?

Mike Sigman
09-18-2008, 09:02 PM
Is it not ironic, then, that you so often shield your own opinions about the people and ideas in this forum by claiming that those opinions were delivered to you from an anonymous group of people outside the forum. How is this not the exact passive/aggressive behavior you decry?Actually, lack of sourcing is not synonymous with "passive-aggressive". If you're really interested in whether "passive-aggressive" is a term associated with Aikido, all you have to do is Google ["passive-aggressive" + Aikido]. Let us know the results, unless of course you want to change the discussion to one about me personally, which you appear to be doing.

Aren't you a member of Ikeda's dojo, BTW?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Cady Goldfield
09-18-2008, 10:08 PM
The true irony here would be if this thead "On Closing Threads" were to be closed due to the deterioration of the posting.

After all that has been said about personal attacks, and the necessity of refraining from them on this website in order to facilitate cogent discussion, I'm surprised that someone would then launch into yet another personal attack.

There's a private-message function on this board for anyone with pressing questions of a personal nature.

Mike Sigman
09-18-2008, 10:22 PM
Good point, Cady. ;) Perhaps the bigger point is not the exchange itself, though, but the fact that people are so used to slipping in a certain level of insult (just below the level that Jun would suggest they've been "disrespectful") on this forum that they don't even see the point of what you just said. It probably needs to be instilled that no personal/off-topic/oblique shots are to be tolerated. But whatever... I'm not trying to tell Jun how to run his forum, I was contributing what I thought might be a constructive opinion about how to avoid letting a certain few people interrupt thread after thread.

Best.

Mike

Mike Sigman
09-19-2008, 02:23 PM
By the way, and I've meant to post this before, I think it would be helpful if more people understood the correct meaning of Ad Hominem. Ad Hominem essentially refers to the situation where someone responds to the man rather than to the issue being discussed. In other words, if someone says A equals B, but a responder says in reply "your answer can't be correct because I have more rank than you"... that's an ad hominem response.

Ad Hominem's can be politely worded, but anytime someone starts dragging off-topic personality into the discussion, no matter how sly or clever or without harsh words, it's still ad hominem. If you understand the meaning of ad hominem in that light and look at how many posts drift immediately into personality discussion apart from the issue, you can see that most of the problem is the diversion to ad hominem, regardless of whether any harsh terms were used. It would be useful if people were sometimes prompted to respond to the debate rather than to the perceived personality. Maybe we should have a separate forum where we talk about what we really think of various other people? :rolleyes:

FWIW

Mike

MikeLogan
09-19-2008, 02:26 PM
Awesome, where did my post go?

Was it too ad -hominy-hominy-hominy?

Or more likely the case I'm a donkey's cap, or ass-hat more commonly?

Wait, yes, I'm an ass-hat, it spurned another thread.

Nothing to see here folks, just a 4 yr old forum noob
michael.

Ron Tisdale
09-19-2008, 02:32 PM
By the way, and I've meant to post this before, I think it would be helpful if more people understood the correct meaning of Ad Hominem.

Snip incorrect definition.

Obviously, Mike's lack of knowledge of latin is showing...the term actually refers to a breakfast menu, as in

I'd like my eggs Ad Hominy, or With Grits... :D

Sorry,
Ron :eek:

Mark Gibbons
09-19-2008, 02:36 PM
Mike Logan. Your post was moved to start a separate thread.
Here http://aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15133

HL1978
09-19-2008, 02:45 PM
Awesome, where did my post go?

Was it too ad -hominy-hominy-hominy?

Or more likely the case I'm a donkey's cap, or ass-hat more commonly?

Wait, yes, I'm an ass-hat, it spurned another thread.

Nothing to see here folks, just a 4 yr old forum noob
michael.

its in the non-aikido traditions forum

MikeLogan
09-19-2008, 03:49 PM
Yea, hence my confirmation of my own ass-hattery. I should have used the terms spurred, or better, spawned.

I found the thread, now I need the time to catch up on the replies. good weekends to all.

michael.