Training in Aikido and Judo

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[David Kerr]

I am just curious if there are any Aikidoka out there who train in Judo and Aikido.
Could you please share your opinions.:cool:

[wildaikido]

I don't train in Aikido and Judo, just Aikido, Yoseikan that is so we do most things aikido and judo (but no judo starting grabs, katate dori, shomen uchi, etc).
Judoish waza are very good. As long as you train where judo is not just a sport it can be very beneficial to your waza.

[deepsoup]

Originally posted by wildaikido
I don't train in Aikido and Judo, just Aikido, Yoseikan that is so we do most things aikido and judo (but no judo starting grabs, katate dori, shomen uchi, etc).
Judoish waza are very good. As long as you train where judo is not just a sport it can be very beneficial to your waza.

That said, your chances of finding a Judo dojo where they teach the whole Kodokan syllabus rather than just coach the olympic sport of judo is pretty slim. They do exist (I trained in one when I was a lad), but they are very few and far between in the UK.

I'd agree with Graham that Yoseikan would be a good choice for someone interested in both judo and aikido. The founder of that style, Minoru Mochizuki, was one of the students that Jigoro Kano (the founder of Judo) asked to study with Morihei Ueshiba (the founder of aikido) after he was impressed by a demonstration of early aikido.

Sean
x

[Edward]

Before starting up Aikido, I did over 7 years of competitive Judo. I must say that thanks to my judo experience, I could make substantial progress in very short time. However, Judo approach is more grappling like, and every one at my dojo say that I still walk like a Judoka (or like someone looking for trouble, if you see what I mean :) ) Judo techniques are heavy and lack the elegance of Aikido movements. They usually end up with both Uke and Nage on the mat.

Anyhow, if you did Judo in the past, it's very beneficial for Aikido. But to mix both styles is not very recommendable because you will spoil your Aikido style. Studying Judo techniques adapted to aikido principles is the best suggestion (such as at a Yoseikan dojo). In my experience, the only throw in common is koshi Nage, and the variations on this technique can include a large part of Judo hip throws, especially the ones in which you keep both feets on the mat. Many senseis do their own research and give you the techniques without saying where they come from.

An unrelated story: A few months ago, I went to practice at a university dojo which shares their huge mats with a judo class. Every one knows my Judo background, so after we finished Aikido, I was invited to do Judo randori, especially after they saw the nostalgia in my eyes as I was frequently watching the judo class. While attempting to do a Tomoe Nage, my partner maybe was too heavy for me, and I suffered a severe groin strain which kept me away from my Aikido training for 3 months. Now I believe I'm too old for Judo and will stick to my Aikido practice.

[Brian]

I study Judo and Aikido. Both classes are taught at the local YMCA, and they switch off each day, so it works out very well.

In aikido class, I practice aikido. In judo class, I practice judo. Nothing has gotten mishmashed in the process, and my aikido is not sloppier as a result. Of course, I would chalk this up to the fact that I decided to wait until I had one year of aikido under my belt before beginning judo, so I wouldn't get overloaded and confused.

The only things I carry over from one class to the other are beneficial.

- As a result of my aikido, I've acquired greater balance, and some of my classmates usually complain about my balance after randori. This fact was driven home when I was doing randori with my sensei. He attempted a foot sweep, and his foot just smacked into my ankle, and I was not moved in the slightest. "Wow," he said, "that didn't work on you at all. I better start trying something different." I was flattered, but couldn't dwell on it too long, as I immediately fell to the ground and groped at the lower portion of my now badly bruised leg. Alright, maybe having balance isn't all that great afterall. Or maybe it was a very, very strong sweep. I've learned to move my feet back from sweeps since :P

- As a result of my judo, I've acquired greater awareness. I would have expected to have gotten this from aikido class if anything. However, usually half of each judo class consists of randori alone. There are many subtleties of attacking, especially when you are in such a close range, that I've slowly become able to identify. It is now quite easy for me to pick up on when someone has decided to attack me simply by the way they hold themselves. I get to experience this often, as a few of my aikido classmates try to "sneak attack" eachother if they think someone is not paying attention. Out of the corner of my eye, I can see them change their posture/stance ever so slightly. Then, when they do attack, it is a simple matter to sidestep them (I don't apply a technique, however- they outrank me :P)

Neither art is superior to the other, and I do not fight in some sort of "aikiju"do hybrid. I react with a technique proper for the situation. Usually, it boils down to whether they are right next to me or not. If my attacker is far away from the onset, I will react with an aikido technique. If the attacker is right next to or has a hold of me from the outset, I will react with a judo technique.

So, in my experience, the two arts have complemented eachother. As long as you have a solid foundation in one art before moving on to the next, I say 'the more the merrier.'

[PeterR]

Well this summer I was at a Yudansha seminar for the Japan Aikido Association near Tokyo when during a bout of heavy beer guzzling a 6th Dan Kodokan Judo, 7th Dan Aikido said now you must do Judo. The senior Shihan of the organization, also drunk, nodded in agreement.

Kenji Tomiki believed Aikido and Judo were one in the same separated only by ma-ai. Please excuse the pun. I seriously doubt that doing one will harm the other and as posted above, would probably help.

[Edward]

Originally posted by Brian

In aikido class, I practice aikido. In judo class, I practice judo.

Couldn't have been said better. It is a sign of respect to your instructor, fellow students and to your art to do so. I used to brag about my judo techniques during Aikido, and now when I remember how impolite it was, I really wish I could have known better.

I would like to add that Aikido and Judo are very similar in some ways, which could create confusion, and very different in other ways, which could make them incompatible. I see many Senseis have studied Judo for many years before starting up Aikido, or vice-versa. So I guess practicing simultaneously is not commendable.

One last thing, a few Aikido styles such as Tomiki and Yoseikan have been founded by Judokas, hence the close relationship. But if you study Aikikai, Takemusu or Yoshinkan the relationship with Judo is less pronounced, and more pure Aikido, I would say.

[jk]

If you can make the time to train in both, why not?

An acquaintance of mine once started 2 different martial arts at the same time (the nutcase was training in a third art at that time). I think he eventually got dan rankings in all of these arts, and I believe he still practices them all. A good martial artist, but he's still a nutcase... ;)

I guess the only concern here is whether one art would "spoil" the other...you might get all sorts of different answers on this topic. I personally believe (and other august members of Aikiweb have said) that it can't hurt, but then I've been more of a serial polygamist when it comes to the martial arts. Just use your best judgment, I suppose...

Regards,

[L. Camejo]

Hi guys,

I agree with all of your posts and I just have a little bit to add.

To reiterate the fact that Judo can improve one's Aikido (and vice versa), I tend to utilise Judo techniques to drive home the principle of tori keeping his back straight and maintaining centred balance after an Aikido technique has been executed. This is generally done when students think that they have the technique mastered, I think it's a great vehicle for engendering humility :)

An example of this is where one may throw with kotegaeshi and end with poor posture, i.e. back being bent over. In the middle of the ukemi I grab the shoulder of the person's dogi and within a second of us both hitting the ground, they're flapping helplessly in juji gatame :)

As you may guess, people in my dojo have EXTREMELY good posture and balance after executing most Aikido techiques :D

Just my 2cents to add to the wealth of information we have here.

L.C.:ai::ki:

[Rob Burson]

I trained seriously in Aikido for two years until my Sensei left the small town I live in. Shortly after that I took up Judo, and am now also two years into my training.

My experience has been that the two arts overlap at some point but that the vast majority of techniques are very distinct. Aikido is much more formal than Judo in it's dojo mannerisms. Aikido techniques, too, are formal in relation to Judo technigues. By formal I mean that Aikido tends to lean toward the kata end of training, while Judo sways back toward "get down to business" fighting. Aikido pushes the boundries of the ideal upward: if there were a perfect martial art it would look like this. Are all these beautiful techniques real? I'm not sure that it matters, but some of them certainly are - in the right circumstances. Judo grounds itself in the real. These techniques absolutely work. It totally matters if they are real, and only slightly matters that they be beautiful...or ideal.

My humble opinion is that the two martial arts combined equip one with an extremely formidable fighting style that neither can truely attain on it's own.

[jsuaikido]

Dude, I really think you should do both if at all possible. I love both arts equally. I really don't see much difference between the two. I believe the art is in the individual and not the canvas, marble, paper, technique...whatever. Have fun and learn!

[Zato Ichi]

If you have the chance, do both. Unless you're doing Shodokan, judo will give you the opportunity to do some full on randori with lots of resistance... it's a great ego killer, and gives you a very good indication on what kind of techniques work for you. As others have mentioned, many of the techniques are compatable, so if your aikido fails, you can transition into a judo technique and vice versa. Just be sure not to mix them up in class. You tend to get dirty looks. :o

While attempting to do a Tomoe Nage, my partner maybe was too heavy for me, and I suffered a severe groin strain which kept me away from my Aikido training for 3 months. Now I believe I'm too old for Judo and will stick to my Aikido practice.

Gee, thanks Edward. I was planning to get back into judo after an extended abscence in the near future, but this story has given me second thoughts... damn you aging process! :D

[PeterR]

Gee, thanks Edward. I was planning to get back into judo after an extended abscence in the near future, but this story has given me second thoughts... damn you aging process! :D
One word Hori-san - Himeji.

[Daniel-san]

There's a guy in my aikido class that was almost a black belt in Judo, he's very good to wrestle with, hehe.

On a side note, i've got to get this out or else I will explode:

Tanaka sensei came over to australia this week to my dojo and a few of his students. We had an awesome class of about 50+ people with Tanaka teaching it. It was absolutely fantastic. I ate breakfast with Tanaka sensei, lunch, dinner then sat around just chatting for the whole night. After I had a few beers he thought it would be fun to start using some of his karate on me, and aikido. He locked on sanko, had me down on the ground, and then he almost broke all of my fingers. It was a blast!

[Michael Neal]

As long as you train where judo is not just a sport it can be very beneficial to your waza.

Actually I think the sport Judo techniques are the most effective and fit in great with Aikido. The kata stuff you would do in a self defense oriented Judo dojo is pretty much already covered in Aikido.

[PeterR]

Actually I think the sport Judo techniques are the most effective and fit in great with Aikido. The kata stuff you would do in a self defense oriented Judo dojo is pretty much already covered in Aikido.
Agreed completely. The greatest benefit of Judo cross-training for an Aikidoist is not so much the techniques (which of course are interesting) but the randori. Sport or no sport the whole idea of randori was to train relatively safely in a full resistance environment. Doing that changes your outlook much more than a leg sweep or a choke hold both of which can also be done in an Aikido dojo.

[billybob]

i miss judo randori so much! if i swing my wife on my hip one more time while dancing she is going to punch me (and she punches hard!)

I am of low rank in aikido, and only held ikyu in judo. but i thought we were studing 'do'. technique is supposed to fall away as we internalize the principles. so, what's the difference? good movement is good movement. using force and bad attitude are bad in either art. and if you fight on the street - you won't remember what you 'technique' you used anyway, or you might embellish. same same, same same. ok!
billybob

[Tim Gerrard]

During a my for 4th Kyu Grading, a member of the panel (a Judo Dan grade) asked whether another candidate and I practiced Judo, I am a 3rd Kyu in Judo and me friend is a 1st Dan. He commented on hip movement during techniques, and said that he could spot the judo 'coming out' as it were. I would like to perhaps raise the issue, and hear experiences of others such as myself who have come to Aikido as their second art. Does your 1st art affect the way you practice Aikido, for example a Judoka may use their hips more and favour techniques such as Tenchi-nage and Koshis, and would a Karateka prefer a more linear approach (I'm sorry if these sound like stereotypes but it's more to get the ball rolling, and give people an idea about what I'm talking about).

Do they make a difference eg. Judo-aikido, Karate-aikido etc..

cheers
T

[PeterR]

Nice post David - very good point.

Tim - I think the same thing that attracts us to certain arts reflects the direction they develope. So yes a person who likes Karate and Aikido will probably have a different approach than a person who likes Judo and Aikido. For example I prefer to get in close and personal although way back when I did Japanese boxing (read young and stupid) my Aikido might have developed in a different direction.

[xuzen]

I am of low rank in aikido, and only held ikyu in judo. but i thought we were studing 'do'. technique is supposed to fall away as we internalize the principles. Good movement is good movement. using force and bad attitude are bad in either art. and if you fight on the street - you won't remember what you 'technique' you used anyway billybob

White cat or black cat; what does it matter, as long as it catches the mice. Love your attitude, forms and techniques are good for demos; your heart (shin), intention (yi) and mental preparation are your 'real' weapon. You may have a low rank now, but your thought shows much maturity.

Cheers mate,
Boon.