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Tim Griffiths
12-19-2001, 07:28 AM
Does this count as humour?

So many new arts and styles try to justify themselves by
pretending they have some glorious lineage. This may be
lamest attempt I've seen, from a hybrid art less than 30
years old:

----
It is doubtful that any karate style existing today is as pure
as the original. Kokondo, however, has borrowed only
those techniques known to be authentic and effective!
There are hundreds of styles of karate now being practiced.
More than half of these have been developed within the last
forty years. Our system is one of these..but only in name.
In principle, Kokondo is as old as the oldest known oriental
martial art. In technique, it is among the arts of the ancients.
----

Thalib
12-19-2001, 08:18 AM
I haven't heard of Kokondo...

From what I know, Karate has it's roots in Okinawa-te and shorinji kempo (correct me if I'm wrong).

But what you said is true... it is sad isn't it...

Edward
12-19-2001, 11:27 AM
It is not important how far can an art trace its origins. It is more relevant to see how uptodate and compatible with the present times it is. However, it is not very Aikido to make fun of other martial arts. I am sure there is enough funny material found in different Aikido styles so that there is no need to look elsewhere.

Cheers,
Edward

Erik
12-19-2001, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by Edward
However, it is not very Aikido to make fun of other martial arts. I am sure there is enough funny material found in different Aikido styles so that there is no need to look elsewhere.

Thanks mama-san!

Erik
12-19-2001, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by Tim Griffiths
It is doubtful that any karate style existing today is as pure
as the original. Kokondo, however, has borrowed only
those techniques known to be authentic and effective!


Correct me if I'm wrong here but I'm thinking people have hit each other for 1,000's of years. If so, I'm thinking we all partake of techniques that are ancient, authentic and effective.

Edward
12-19-2001, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Erik


Thanks mama-san!



You might be interested to know that Mama-san is the title given to the lady manager in a prostitution bar. I hope that this is not what you had in mind when you called me that ;)

Erik
12-19-2001, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by Edward
You might be interested to know that Mama-san is the title given to the lady manager in a prostitution bar. I hope that this is not what you had in mind when you called me that ;)

I like the name.

Edward
12-19-2001, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by Erik


I like the name.

Very funny...

PeterR
12-19-2001, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by Edward
However, it is not very Aikido to make fun of other martial arts.
Why do I always get the impression we're being lectured to.

shihonage
12-19-2001, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by PeterR

Why do I always get the impression we're being lectured to.

lyam
12-19-2001, 03:22 PM
Ha ha! This is the last forum I ever expected to see that pic on! I almost spit out the water I was drinking! I can't stop using exclamation points!

-sean

shihonage
12-19-2001, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by lyam
Ha ha! This is the last forum I ever expected to see that pic on! I almost spit out the water I was drinking! I can't stop using exclamation points!

-sean

I know it's been overused, but it's so ... cute.

mj
12-19-2001, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by Edward

You might be interested to know that Mama-san is the title given to the lady manager in a prostitution bar...

How do you know? :D

guest1234
12-19-2001, 06:18 PM
Oh, come on, mj, even I know that:p
Er, well, OK, maybe not a big surprise to anyone:o
Uh, I'll be going now...:rolleyes:

shihonage
12-19-2001, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by ca
Oh, come on, mj, even I know that:p
Er, well, OK, maybe not a big surprise to anyone:o
Uh, I'll be going now...:rolleyes:

guest1234
12-19-2001, 06:40 PM
:D :D :D
I laughed so hard I spilled my tea:D

'Though you'd better watch out, I'm one of those 'unfeminine' sorts, and mean for one so short...:eek:

Edward
12-19-2001, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by mj


How do you know? :D

If you ever happen to be in Bangkok one of these days, I promise to take you on a small tour ;)

Edward
12-19-2001, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by PeterR

Why do I always get the impression we're being lectured to.

Why do you feel concerned? Isn't what I said true? Do you have a different opinion? Do you suggest that I stop posting on this forum?

I would like to hear your point.

guest1234
12-19-2001, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by Edward


If you ever happen to be in Bangkok one of these days, I promise to take you on a small tour ;)

Acckkk!:eek: :eek:
Univeral precautions, universal precautions, universal precautions.:D

mj
12-20-2001, 04:34 AM
Originally posted by Edward


If you ever happen to be in Bangkok one of these days, I promise to take you on a small tour ;)

er....my wife wants a small word about your 'small tour' :D

She is my universal precaution :p

Edward
12-20-2001, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by mj


er....my wife wants a small word about your 'small tour' :D

She is my universal precaution :p

Sorry about that, now you will never be able to set foot in Bangkok :D

j0nharris
12-20-2001, 08:36 AM
Well, as long as we're on the subject, this is why sumo is always superior to karate :D

fighting styles... (http://www.radford.edu/~jcharris/kitten_fight.mpeg)

-jon

PeterR
12-20-2001, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by Edward
Why do you feel concerned? Isn't what I said true? Do you have a different opinion? Do you suggest that I stop posting on this forum?

I would like to hear your point.
Post away - but above and elsewhere you seem to make a lot of moral judgements of people.

However, it is not very Aikido to make fun of other martial arts.

Why don't you explain this line a bit more. Why is it true - what is it in Aikido that percludes this behaviour. Why do you think that someone who has a laugh at something ridiculous is not doing Aikido.

Edward
12-20-2001, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by PeterR

Post away - but above and elsewhere you seem to make a lot of moral judgements of people.

However, it is not very Aikido to make fun of other martial arts.

Why don't you explain this line a bit more. Why is it true - what is it in Aikido that percludes this behaviour. Why do you think that someone who has a laugh at something ridiculous is not doing Aikido.

"Do not criticize any other martial arts. The mountain does not laugh at the river because it is lowly, nor does the river speak ill of the mountain because it cannot move about. Everyone has his own characteristics and gains his own position in life. Speak ill of others, and it will surely come back to you."

Koichi Tohei

PeterR
12-20-2001, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by Edward
"Do not criticize any other martial arts. The mountain does not laugh at the river because it is lowly, nor does the river speak ill of the mountain because it cannot move about. Everyone has his own characteristics and gains his own position in life. Speak ill of others, and it will surely come back to you."

Koichi Tohei
The quote is apt and reflects my view yet you say elsewhere

Only in Aikido, to my knowledge, are practitionersí manners and personality, not only in the dojo but also outside of it, more important than technical ability and physical prowess.

This is a very broad statement and in my view wrong. It was in answer to Peter G.'s post which I agree completely with. It also assumes that Aikido has some sort of moral superiority which in my view is also completely incorrect. The assumption that Aikido practice gives one the right to judge another's "maners" also leaves a sour taste in my mouth. I realize I am guilty of mixing threads yet ... remove someone for being a disruption and a danger but for bad manners?

If I was so judged I would have been kicked out of my dojo long ago - manners are learnt.

shihonage
12-20-2001, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by j0nharris
Well, as long as we're on the subject, this is why sumo is always superior to karate :D

fighting styles... (http://www.radford.edu/~jcharris/kitten_fight.mpeg)


More like "why getting out of the way is a valuable skill" :)

Edward
12-20-2001, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by PeterR

The quote is apt and reflects my view yet you say elsewhere

Only in Aikido, to my knowledge, are practitionersí manners and personality, not only in the dojo but also outside of it, more important than technical ability and physical prowess.

This is a very broad statement and in my view wrong. It was in answer to Peter G.'s post which I agree completely with. It also assumes that Aikido has some sort of moral superiority which in my view is also completely incorrect. The assumption that Aikido practice gives one the right to judge another's "maners" also leaves a sour taste in my mouth. I realize I am guilty of mixing threads yet ... remove someone for being a disruption and a danger but for bad manners?

If I was so judged I would have been kicked out of my dojo long ago - manners are learnt.

Peter,

If I'm not mistaken, the above statement is not from me but from Late Doshu Kisshomaru Ueshiba. However, as you noticed, there are many conflicting opinions about this subject. Mine might be the most radical, but I will have to live with that. I am not trying to convince anyone of my positions. Every one picks up whatever one considers suitable for him.

Cheers,
Edward

PeterR
12-20-2001, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by Edward
Every one picks up whatever one considers suitable for him.

True - I'll back off now. It's a pet peave of mine - in the first month after I returned to the real world I sat through more lectures about Aikido phiolosophy and how Japanese behave then I did in the half decade I lived there. A lot of it was at odds from what I had learnt in country.

They may have molded my behaviour in Japan but they never judged (well at least to my face).

mj
12-20-2001, 08:19 PM
/deleted/

shihonage
12-20-2001, 09:59 PM
/undeleted/

Tim Griffiths
12-23-2001, 04:31 AM
Four sentences, four comments:

Originally posted by Edward
It is not important how far can an art trace its origins.


Maybe. However, what is important is to be honest - about
the age of your art or anything else.


It is more relevant to see how uptodate and compatible with
the present times it is.


Really? Should Naginata-jitsu be junked? Should we
train mostly in firearms and knifework? What is your test
for 'compatibility'?


However, it is not very Aikido to make fun of other martial arts.


Why not? Are aikidoka meant to be humourless one-with-
the-universe zen students? What is 'being Aikido'?
When did 'aikido' become an adjective?
In any case, was I ridiculing another martial art (about
which I'm sure you know little) or an attitude of trying to
give a modern derivative art some undeserved
historical substance?


I am sure there is enough funny material found in different Aikido styles so that there is no need to look elsewhere.

So you're saying its OK to laugh at aikido, but not other arts?
Why? Because this is an aikido forum (can I laugh at
aikido on other forums)? Because I practice aikido (I also practice Kokondo)? Because some aikidoka
have their head shoved so far up their own colon they can't
see the colour of what they're saying?

Surely 'compassionate understanding' of other arts should
begin with other aikido style, not be inapplicable to them.

Tim

Edward
12-23-2001, 05:47 AM
Originally posted by Tim Griffiths
Four sentences, four comments:



Maybe. However, what is important is to be honest - about
the age of your art or anything else.



Really? Should Naginata-jitsu be junked? Should we
train mostly in firearms and knifework? What is your test
for 'compatibility'?



Why not? Are aikidoka meant to be humourless one-with-
the-universe zen students? What is 'being Aikido'?
When did 'aikido' become an adjective?
In any case, was I ridiculing another martial art (about
which I'm sure you know little) or an attitude of trying to
give a modern derivative art some undeserved
historical substance?



So you're saying its OK to laugh at aikido, but not other arts?
Why? Because this is an aikido forum (can I laugh at
aikido on other forums)? Because I practice aikido (I also practice Kokondo)? Because some aikidoka
have their head shoved so far up their own colon they can't
see the colour of what they're saying?

Surely 'compassionate understanding' of other arts should
begin with other aikido style, not be inapplicable to them.

Tim

Thank you very much for your kind message, which is so much in the spirit of Aikido.

I will try to explain my comments, which I assume were not clear enough, and I apologize for that.


Re. 1 & 2: You should read these 2 sentences together. The meaning is the age of any art is not as important as its contents. Being uptodate and compatible with present times does not mean to give up naginata, fencing, and horse riding. I was making allusion about the transition of Budo from the art of killing in the old times, to the art of self realization of the modern times.

Re. 3 & 4: You can read above in my correspondence with PeterR that I was quoting a principle formulated by Koichi Tohei Sensei. You are free to follow or not follow his recommendation. I have never heard of late Tohei Sensei nor any of the many Shihans spreading Aikido in the world, having achieved this technically difficult technique such as shoving their head in their colon, as you say. If you were meaning myself, I'm afraid I lack the necessary spine flexibility to do that. Sorry to disappoint you.
As for finding funny material in aikido itself, I fail to see the problem, as being able to laugh at our own mistakes is the sign of a true gentleman.

Speaking about gentlemen, I have practiced Aikido in many dojos around the world and have met only gentlemen, and this is what encouraged me to persevere in this art. I wonder why that ever since I started reading this forum that I started to notice that gentlemen are rare. Is it a special feature of this forum to attract the less polished of us? Or do people find it easier to loose their manners when they are not face to face with each other?

Arianah
12-23-2001, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by Edward
Speaking about gentlemen, I have practiced Aikido in many dojos around the world and have met only gentlemen, and this is what encouraged me to persevere in this art. I wonder why that ever since I started reading this forum that I started to notice that gentlemen are rare. Is it a special feature of this forum to attract the less polished of us? Or do people find it easier to loose their manners when they are not face to face with each other?

I don't think that the people here are any different than the "gentlemen," as you say, that you have met in your experience, simply that this form of communication begs misunderstanding. Since we can't determine the tone of the words spoken in a post and therefore the poster's intent, we can misinterpret what is being said. For example, Edward, when I first came on this board, I read all your posts with a malicious tone, but now that I've gotten a flavor for your style, I read them as matter-of-fact and slightly sarcastic rather than with malice (hell, I don't even know if that is the correct tone :) ) Anyway, this is the way that a lot of these argumentative posts get started:
-Someone posts something slightly controversial in the spirit of discussion
-Someone else reads it, thinks it is intentionally offensive, posts a venom reply
-The first person retorts in an equally venom manner
And voila! You've got a first rate argument that leaves everyone with a bad taste in their mouth. *clap, clap, clap* Well done! ;) Another thread was started about people being jerks because they can be anonymous. I think it is often just a matter of misunderstanding.

By the way:
. . . shoving their head in their colon, as you say. If you were meaning myself, I'm afraid I lack the necessary spine flexibility to do that. Sorry to disappoint you.

this is a great line! :D



**This post is to be read as humble opinion, with slight humor and the overtone of a smothering mother :)

Arianah

post script: Sorry about the long post, but I've seen quite a few of these misinterpreted posts start arguments and thought I might just provide something to dilute the nastiness. You may resume.

davem
12-24-2001, 11:51 AM
Something I don't think people think about when they make posts here, is that they are also speaking as a representative of their dojo. While they may not want to be, if a person sees them participating in all of the 'debates' and being rude on these boards continually... First instinct would be to feel that this behavior is the norm for this particular dojo.

I just think something we should all think about before we post, is that we are seen as representatives of our dojos, and as such we have the ability to reflect both good and bad upon our dojo and sensei.

With that being said. Merry christmas to all, and I hope you all have a fun holiday time. Yule then New Year's, talk about the perfect time to have fun.

Dave

Edward
12-26-2001, 01:08 AM
Hello Sarah,

Thanks for understanding the tone of my posts. As a matter of fact, I never thought about this problem, and now that you bring it to my attention, I agree with you that it is the origin of many misunderstandings. I do hope that forum members do not interprete my posts wrongly as being malicious... In the real life, I am a calm person, who speaks in a reserved way, with a touch of sarcasm as Sarah said. Please read my posts in this manner.

However, sometimes you can know a lot about people from their reaction to misunderstandings, unfortunately.

Dave,

I agree with you completely. However, as far as I am concerned, I am very proud of my teachers and my dojo. My personal opinions do reflect those of my teachers and their attitude towards Aikido, since I learned all I know about Aikido from them.

I am sure there is no shame in defending the values and ethics of Aikido.

I agree that some of the teachers would be very embarrassed to read what their students wrote on this forum. And very unfortunately, some of them won't be embarrassed at all :( Some might even be teachers themselves :eek:

Anyhow, I wish you all a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

Cheers,
Edward

davem
12-26-2001, 01:09 PM
Hey I'm glad to see someone agrees with me!
It's one of the reasons I prefer to read instead of post... I'd hate to make my dojo look bad because I'm having a bad day or something like that. It's something I need to work on, as with all things, the more balanced I become and the easier I am able to reach my center, the better I am at keeping my constantly changing attitudes from causing problems.

Heh, good new year's to you Edward, and to all of you.

Abasan
12-26-2001, 09:32 PM
dave, edward.

If you are writing your posts sincerely why should there be shame? If you are wrong, you will be corrected. If you do not accept the correction, thats your choice.

Some ppl might add, if you don't have something good to say, don't say anything. And if you really have to critique a post, don't get personal.

Anat Amitay
12-31-2001, 10:54 AM
guys and girls.
you're all looking at things in the wrong light.
When you write something, you have a certain intention, you're heading in a certain direction of thought, but sometimes you forget that others don't know what that direction is. Giving in only clues of it instead of NAMEING it usually gets people wrong to your meaning.
For example, Edward- when you were saying that some things should be left because they don't fit in the modern world- you meant the killing part of the old arts, but you didn't mention it.
So someone else didn't understand your meaning and thought it "stupid" to stop practicing a martial art because today it's more likely someone will attack you with a gun from 20 meters than one on one combat.
To the main idea I'm talking about:
Before you get angry at someones responce to your comments, wait a minute and try to look at your own writing from anothers point of veiw. Maybe he's seeing something else, maybe I didn't explain myself well enough. And even if someone wrote a comment you didn't like, being angry and answering angrily is VERY much NOT aikido...
that's my point of veiw.
enjoy anything you do in life and except others that are different and think different than you
Cheers
Anat

thoss
10-12-2005, 06:43 PM
its kata heavy , I have been in sense 1987 . I know 40 katas, 36 unarmed ones . that's silly .
you talk about traditional ? most only knew 6 or 7 .

Motabo only knew 3 .
but it dose use traditional methods . the white trough yellow pay the bills and that closed to all they get before the quit . the serious one that stay past nedon get some urue but not a lot .

but its more complete then most . we do use all the jitsus , choking throwing , punching and so on ,
but most system are as good as the teacher .

the one I studied with was great , chuck held nothing back .

I saw the sankosho : its vary detailed , Roberts did a good job . but left out any mention of kyusho .
Kohan the round though . he is a board member and if you piss him off he'll lie about you in a minuet .
I'm a pagan and this guy tried having me bounced by saying I'm a member of the KKK , LOL ya right .
wasn't his only lie but I'll leave that there .

kokondo is not really pure , its mostly Okinawa some Philippians and Chinese influence .

but if I were to recommend a system it would be it .

thoss
10-12-2005, 07:34 PM
I haven't heard of Kokondo...

From what I know, Karate has it's roots in Okinawa-te and shorinji kempo (correct me if I'm wrong).

But what you said is true... it is sad isn't it...
Okinawa-ta and Uchinadi are the two most original .

the changes came in 1920 when it hit Japan and had to be changed to fit budo .
that's when it became a sport .

the only shame in karate is when it became Mcdojos .

emma.mason15
10-12-2005, 10:59 PM
my friend is a karate instructor
we regulary take the p!ss outta each other .... its harmless and said in good form ....we giggle about taekwondo and well we're both guilty of laughing at some "Mc Dojos" oin our area ....
it doesnt mean that i have any less respect for him or his art ..... (and i aint lecturing him on hether or not he can ..... he'd kick my @ss!!! lol)
.... to laugh is to live ....
emma
x

thoss
10-12-2005, 11:32 PM
my friend is a karate instructor
we regularly take the p!ss outta each other .... its harmless and said in good form ....we giggle about taekwondo and well we're both guilty of laughing at some "Mc Dojos" oin our area ....
it doesn't mean that i have any less respect for him or his art ..... (and i aint lecturing him on hether or not he can ..... he'd kick my @ss!!! lol)
.... to laugh is to live ....
emma
x

glad you have fun but Mcdojos are children's karate with contracts and money and no real instruction . other wise known as belt stores .

don't teach kyusho or any real scill .

good for kids and a baby SITER FOR FASMILYS FOR AN HOUR .

THE FIRST THREID CLAIMED KOKONDO WAS CLOSE TO THE ORIGENAL ? BULL SHIT , THE ORIGENAL WAS TOP PROTECT A PERSON FROM RANDUM ATTACKS . NO REALL CIVIL LAW . SO YOU HGURT THE ATTACKER AND LEFT THEM ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD [SORRY FOR CAPS BIG FINGERS }

you either killed or crippled the person .

when it was change to a sport it was changed . as Funakoshi said its much differently from what he learned .

Paul was asked in 1992 seminar what he thought of ninjitsu and he answered go you really want to kill some one ?

karate wasn't an assassins art but kill they did .

kokondo doesnt teach kyusho that would kill . its not identical to the original karate .
its no better then gojorue .
if your sensia is good that's all there really is . not the style .

thoss
10-14-2005, 09:49 PM
Mr Roberts . I apologize for insulting you . with how I feel .

I just received a e-male from a old friend one in some time now , he asked me to stop being a jerk and I agree .

my post doesnt come down on you or any one {except Mr Chonan } thats old crap and hopefully gone . I know I posted it here .

anyone that learned about kokondo would see its value . young jimmy here just went top fare with his exuberance .

again Robert I am sorry for hurting your feeling , and Paul knows I respect him .


but I'm here all the time so if its a problem ? well I'm in the book .

thoss
10-14-2005, 10:11 PM
glad you have fun but Mcdojos are children's karate with contracts and money and no real instruction . other wise known as belt stores .[this is not! kokondo .}
don't teach kyusho or any real scill .

good for kids and a baby SITER FOR FAMILY'S FOR AN HOUR .
OK this is and I see why its unfair things change so no need for the old way .

THE FIRST THREID CLAIMED KOKONDO WAS CLOSE TO THE ORIGINAL ? BULL SHIT , THE ORIGINAL WAS TOP PROTECT A PERSON FROM RANDOM ATTACKS . NO REAL CIVIL LAW . SO YOU HURT THE ATTACKER AND LEFT THEM ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD [SORRY FOR CAPS BIG FINGERS }

you either killed or crippled the person .

when it was change to a sport it was changed . as Funakoshi said its much differently from what he learned .
he did , I was there ,
Paul was asked in 1992 seminar what he thought of ninjitsu and he answered go you really want to kill some one ?

karate wasn't an assassins art but kill they did .

kokondo doesn't teach kyusho that would kill . its not identical to the original karate .
its no better then gojorue .
if your sensia is good that's all there really is . not the style . Now here I am sorry but gojo rue is a good art too! not a put down on kokondo .

thoss
10-14-2005, 10:24 PM
its kata heavy , I have been in sense 1987 . I know 40 katas, 36 unarmed ones . that's silly .
you talk about traditional ? most only knew 6 or 7 .
{just my opinion }
Motabo only knew 3 .
but it dose use traditional methods . the white trough yellow pay the bills and that closed to all they get before the quit . the serious one that stay past nedon get some urue but not a lot .{this I am sorry fore , white throu yellow rarly stay so the ones that hang in there gewt some good stuff }

but its more complete then most . we do use all the jitsus , choking throwing , punching and so on ,
but most system are as good as the teacher . {AND??}

the one I studied with was great , chuck held nothing back .{I studied, not still , I do miss it but thats my fault } { I found other styles }

I saw the sankosho : its vary detailed , Roberts did a good job . but left out any mention of kyusho .
Kohan the round though . he is a board member and if you piss him off he'll lie about you in a minuet .
I'm a pagan and this guy tried having me bounced by saying I'm a member of the KKK , LOL ya right .
wasn't his only lie but I'll leave that there .{this is true , he said I defaced the collage and I didn't , he said I was a member of the KKK well you must be a wasp and I anti one .}

kokondo is not really pure , its mostly Okinawa some Philippians and Chinese influence .{ this was just bull shit and I'm sorry it was saying its not 700 years old or straight Okinawa }

but if I were to recommend a system it would be it .
didn't read this part ? to bad .

you guys are really good but you not the only ones .
one more what the hell , Rob you looked good but the picture od augments rear elbow I think you could rub that gi more to fare sticking out , just a suggestion

again guys sorry if I came down hard on you , only had one stuck in my crol .

thoss
10-14-2005, 11:27 PM
tim did I pop your bollon?
LOL
ok

thoss
10-15-2005, 01:09 AM
timmy
you refer to clones as non dojos ? you mean the many dojos that left kokondo ?
well i don't know them them son but I'm sure they had their reasons to .

that makes them less ? how ?

i understand exuberance , but you are a bit churlish in this area .

you lack respect and thats a shame .

Lee Mulgrew
11-07-2005, 10:35 AM
is it just me or has the fun from this HUMOR thread dissapeared? Lighten up guys!

Avery Jenkins
11-07-2005, 11:47 AM
Looks like Tim was trying to stir up a little action by getting in a fight with himself, but he forgot to change screen names...

emma.mason15
11-08-2005, 04:49 PM
*Bangs everyones heads together*

OIIIII ... behave this is the HUMOUR thread .... and I like it like that!!! :D :D :D