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Bagua
01-27-2008, 02:22 AM
just a quick question

how much time do you or your instructions give over to meditation or ki development.

What methods do you have to practice these things?

Stephen Webb
01-27-2008, 11:29 AM
We generally start each class with between three and ten minutes of ki breathing exercises before we get started, and I personally do it most nights before going to bed as it helps me sleep better.

As for developing it in practice, isn't that what aikido is?

Alfredo sheppy
01-27-2008, 02:39 PM
Hey Finlay,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMe_CGdF-zc

I noticed your post. I have also studied Bagua and Aikido. My Aikido teacher would do a lot of zen meditation. One thing that got me into Bagua was the search for exercises I knew must exist to develop internal power (how else could Osensi perform his feats), exercises I couldn't find in Aikido till later. I know a lot of readers are not going to like to here this, but I feel this is seriously lacking in Aikido.

Of course you know chi development is highly emphasized in chinese internal martial arts. My current teacher has students do Chi-kung for a couple years before one can even start doing tai chi. Bagua would traditionally do circle walking for a year before practice.

Now that have I developed some internal power (mainly from holding the ball and circle walking) I can really appreciate the approach of energy development first, as I can now feel energy within the movements, an energy that feels strongest when motions are performed with correct alignment relaxation, vortex motion.

After a lot of study of alternative energy study (mainly victor schauberger), I have come to believe water-misogi, meditating underneath a waterfall, a shinto practice osensi did, is a powerful internal energy tool, removing blockages, blockages both spiritual and physical.

The founder of the following Japanese art which looks a lot like aikido emphasizes this practice to develop ones sixth sense. I believe this will also develop internal power for techniques and spiritual development.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMe_CGdF-zc

Here is a thread I started on water misogi.
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11795

Take care
Alfredo

SeiserL
01-28-2008, 05:10 AM
There is 1 meditation time at the dojo, no regular meditation as part of class, I meditate daily.

Ki development is a part of everything.

Kevin Leavitt
01-28-2008, 05:27 AM
I think meditation is a highly individual thing. Various ways to do it. There is enough we have to do in aikido, that there simply would not be enough time to lead or guide meditation.

Actually aikido practice itself can be a form of meditation.

As it is personal, you really need to find your own way to develop a practice.

Find a teacher. Spend time reading about it, listening to tapes. Go to a school.

Everyone needs to develop there own practice and interpretation of meditation if you ask me.

I still have a long way to go. I need to find a good teacher to develop my sitting meditation. I do a fair amount of walking meditation, which works for me.

Chris Parkerson
01-28-2008, 06:37 AM
What methods do you have to practice these things?

Some schools have meditation periods as scheduled classes.

What do you want to achieve out of meditation.

The body (skeletal structure) is a giant antenna that attracts a variety of energies. There are allot of things you can do with energy.

You may want to read some of the works of Montak Chia. Look him up online. The Tibetan monastic and Chinese martial traditions are highly developed in this area. He is a combination of both.

Caveat: Don't chase the Ki, Chi or Kundalini. Allow it to happen as your intent directs your body.

Will Prusner
01-28-2008, 09:23 AM
You may want to read some of the works of Montak Chia.

Proper spelling of his first name is "Mantak". I've been practicing various forms of Qigong for a little while now. I find that his explanation of the routes that ki flows through the body on are phenomenal. However, in the very beginning, and still today to a certain extent, I find the practice of alot of his techniques difficult to understand and apply. For me to feel comfortable with alot of his techniques would definitely require hands on experience with a well learned practitioner. A currently unavailable resource.

I've had lots of success with various DVDs. There are many available. One for most any preference it seems: Standing, sitting, moving, lying down, etc. Find one you like and stick with it, although there are immediate noticeable sensations, the benefits (physical, mental, spiritual) generally start to manifest after the first 100 days of continuous practice, in my experience.

Many of the principles are the same for aikido. An emphasis on posture, breath, intention, ki, body awareness, blending, etc...

W.

p.s. - if you happen to subscribe to one of those services that sends you dvds by mail, look through their selections, lots of good stuff. Search: Chi kung, Qigong

Bagua
01-29-2008, 01:06 AM
Hi thanks for the response

My knowledge of aikido is very limited, I did a few classes when I was younger and the teacher then, an Italian, spent time at the beginning of each class doing breathing exercises. The class I have seen recently had none of this so it is just personal choice.

As for the rest of Aikido creating or developing ki i.e. the techniques, at what stage does the real practise begin, by this I mean: all martial arts develop ki or qi just some focus on it and try to develop it.

One of the base meanings in Chinese of “qi” is “air”, and a lot of the basic practice involves breathing as many if not all Martials arts do, even the very external style of TKD focuses a lot of coordinating the movements with breath, this on it’s own does not develop higher level qi development.

The practice of qi gong or any internal/energy based is not just simply standing breathing or waving your hands in the air there is a lot of intention behind the postures or movements. And that is what people in the Chinese internal styles are training, there is another phrase in Chinese which roughly goes yi,qi,li (there are other words but I have forgotten them) this mean intention drives the qi with drives your strength. This can’t happen without proper practise of qi gong/meditation and then movement practice

(Sorry if I am telling you think which you already know)

Even my current teacher says if you can’t use or direct your qi you are not doing real Bagua.

Does any of this sound familiar to anybodies aikido study?

Thanks for your replies

Chris Parkerson
01-29-2008, 08:02 PM
Proper spelling of his first name is "Mantak". I've been practicing various forms of Qigong for a little while now. I find that his explanation of the routes that ki flows through the body on are phenomenal. However, in the very beginning, and still today to a certain extent, I find the practice of alot of his techniques difficult to understand and apply. For me to feel comfortable with alot of his techniques would definitely require hands on experience with a well learned practitioner. A currently unavailable resource.

Well said William. Sorry about the misspelling. I was on I phone and often have to type in the blind on it.

In the 1970's a Tai Chi teacher of mine warned me about chasing the Chi. He said you could catch "the devil's fire". Mantak Chia's techniques are not difficult if you attend the seminars. I do not know whether the seminars still exist. I went in the 1980's. But William's warning is quite real. Any complex meditation system should not be, in my opinion, practiced without live guidance. The body seeks its natural balance with its fluids as well as with its magnetics and ether. Using intent and specific mental exercises to guide flows, can disrupt the balance if the exercises are not done properly or if your body experiences imbalance undetected due to the lack of a guide's wise eyes.

I have had two friends who caught "the devil's fire". They are not fun to be around. I have also been very drunk on kundalini. You can waste much time and lose your sense of priorities by not keeping kundalini under control.

The simple stuff of meditation is that if your mind becomes calm, your body relaxes. If your body relaxes, chi will flow, it will often flow past blockages you have when you are tense. When chi flows, you can use if for a myriad of things....healing, hurting, psychic skills, and other noetic disciplines.

Chris Parkerson

ChrisHein
01-29-2008, 11:35 PM
As I edge closer and closer to Aiki, I realise more and more that, regular, purposeful Aiki cannot be achived without the kind of mind developed through meditation.

That said I still spend much more time wrestling with my students then we do sitting. However I find myself sitting more and more these days.

I do what I would call observational meditation (you can call it what ever you like). It's simply sitting, being aware of everying that you can, and not attaching to any one aspect of right now.

Will Prusner
01-30-2008, 09:36 AM
Using intent and specific mental exercises to guide flows, can disrupt the balance if the exercises are not done properly or if your body experiences imbalance undetected due to the lack of a guide's wise eyes.

I have had two friends who caught "the devil's fire". They are not fun to be around. I have also been very drunk on kundalini. You can waste much time and lose your sense of priorities by not keeping kundalini under control.


Yes, I'm jumping on the opportunity to attend such a seminar when/if the possibility presents itself. In the meantime, I try to do gentle qigong practice, always paying close attention to subtle cues to how my body and mind are responding to each other. Also, I always make sure to properly focus on collecting the chi at the end of the excercise. Thus far, no adverse effects.

Chris Parkerson
01-30-2008, 04:58 PM
just a quick question

how much time do you or your instructions give over to meditation or ki development.

What methods do you have to practice these things?

Finlay,

I got to wondering if your question about meditation had to do with making techniques better?

Is this what you are getting at?

Bagua
01-30-2008, 10:04 PM
hi chris

Certainly this was a big part of what i was getting at. in my previous post i mentioned the idea of yi,qi,li

When i am studying if on a good day i really feel the buzz and warmth in my body (i practice outside, so warmth is a big issue some nights:) )on ocassion when practicing qin na or joint locking i have experienced a very different kind of feeling than just body mechanics at work.

for me this is a very important part of my development. and i my bagua training we spend about 30mins on standing meditation a session

Chris Parkerson
01-30-2008, 10:45 PM
if you want to get good at soft throwing arts (biped tipping), it is really about relaxing and using leverage through the soles of your feet to effect the joint lock, connection to uke's center of gravity, floating uke to the edge of his base, and once he is depending on your posture to hold him up, drop out from under him. No real esoteric skill, just an acquired feel much like chiropracty or massage.
No will follow the effort.

In the 1960's and 70's we were all looking for magic. Manu Chinese and Japanese teachers hid their skills and attributed them to some esoteric principle. Hoping chi-gods will take over without efficient body mechanics is a real cloudy maze.

Moving meditations are better if they combine proper sequence, breath and intent. The Paqua/hsingi white crane and Tiengunn exercises are a staple for me. I slow them down to avoid the whipping/ballistic stuff you would use in pugilism. The sequence is the same if you want to throw someone with good leverage.

Good Kung fu is grounded in the feet, goes through the knees, is directed by the waiste, and culminates in the hands. This is the sequence for building efficient momentum.

Funny how so many aikido "walking exercises" do not really employ it efficiently. Another dark labrynth. Weight shift must be grounded, the lower body must get close (tai jitsu), then the hands (te jitsu) do the fine tuning. Chi follows naturally, the meditation is on the sequence.

Bagua
01-31-2008, 01:10 AM
good answer

i agree with you that we should look for some sort of magic to the arts for us. I am sure we have all seen the "masters" who pretend to throw people all over the place without touching them and fool so many people in to believeing it.

maybe i worded some of my posts wrong and gave pople the idea that i was looking to start floating on a cloud or something. I am looking to get well grounded (in every way hahaha0 in the external expression of the art, with out this we are olny practicing qi gong but i also want to work on the internal aspects ofthe art, wothout this we are missing a huge partof the art (well in bagua anyway)

In my opinion both should work together but also be trained individually sometimes to try to focus.

again not to be chased most of thw lower levels happen naturally with proper practice anyway but still needs to be practiced

dps
01-31-2008, 06:12 AM
Good definition of meditation, ....... being aware of everying that you can, and not attaching to any one aspect of right now., whether you are sitting, standing, moving or still.

David

Chris Parkerson
01-31-2008, 06:45 AM
Finlay,

I have personally witnessed chi projection from a distance on several occassions. It is not pure hogwash. There is value to it in my opinion. Especially for healing.

In the 1970's our Kenpo crowd assisted Wai Fong Doo (Grand Master of the Bok Fu Pai Kung Fu tradition) and he trained us for several years. He trained us in a variety of internal meditations and my training partner was eventually given a mastership of Bok Fu Pai Tai Chi. Doo Wai could lock your body up (paralyze it) from a distance. He could also effect your acupuncture points from a distance thus causing imbalance.

Sifu Joachim Almeria (Tai Chi, JKD, BJJ and Aikido yudansha) out of Las Vegas, has an earned graduate degree in acupuncture from China. He can cause people to lean forwards and backwards from a distance. His acupuncture treatments are phenomenal.

The Dillman crowd experiments with their stuff from a distance as well. They have some success.

Oddly enough, each case requires some level of "set up" at the psychological level. For this reason, I believe it has less effect in actual combat when an opponent does not get his energy in sinc with the guy doing the energy attack and when the enemy adrenal dumps as a primal "ward off".

I have personally taken multiple contact strikes from a top level Dillman-tradition instructor on acupuncture points (with a relaxed, stable body that is centered) with virtually no effect. Same with high level PPCT instructors. I attribute this success to my own meditations.

My training partner, on the other hand, can disrupt my organs with his Kiai. I got scared for my safety once when we did this in front of a mirror. There was a multiplying effect. I wonder if his ability had more to do with my own mental accpetance of his attack. Perhaps I did not "ward him off" with my own psychic intent.

Bagua
01-31-2008, 11:06 PM
Chris

Interesting, kong jing (empty force) is something that is thrown around a lot in martial arts circles, and many people claim to have it.

we have all walked into a room where someone is angry or upset and felt the change in energy, this is a very base level of control energy in a room. i have spent a long time teaching large groups of children and being ablr to change the mood in a room is a very useful tool (especally when they don't speak your language:) )

this energy exchange can be focused and refined through meditation and other things into something useable. I was good friends with a shaman for a while and when people use to come to her with problems, one of the ways she used was to accept their negitive energy and send positive energy back into them (more or less). my friend visited a chinese master who did much the same thing on a martial level, everytime his student attacked him he would dis-assemble the agression and the fella would forget what he was doing....

my problem with a lot of the people that i have seen is the amount of mysticism they put into it. and also them selling the idea as a viable self defence style. like you mentioned both people have to buy into the experience and even then it is not as dramatic as people expect.

people like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I

that said i am open to my mind being changed, if i do meet some one who can "hit' me without touching i will write in a tell everyone the experience. there is a master here who i have been trying to track down to chat to, i am sure you have seen this clip before but here goes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drz-CMespEM

very interesting stuff, my current teacher whacks me in pressure points every so often to get my attention.

once you start looking in to the internal sie of things, then arts really become extraordianry. which i supose was the basis of my original post.

once agan thank you for you clear and well though out replies. it is good to share experiences so we can all tlearn.

finlay

happysod
02-01-2008, 06:10 AM
I got scared for my safety once when we did this in front of a mirror.I sincerely hope your friend is banned from changing rooms or discos with a mirror ball for the safety of innocent bystanders...

Chris Parkerson
02-01-2008, 08:17 AM
Baqua,

I really liked the second video. But I (as you will probably agree) think his claim of being the only Dim Mak specialist is an overstatement.

When Brian Adams, Parker Linekin and I trained with Wai Fong Doo, we were given Dim Mak training. Doo Wai is a unique fellow. Six generations before him, his great, great......grandfather was Doo Tin Yin, a famous physician. When the Fukien Shil Lum temple was destroyed, one of the five martial arts teachers named Fung Do Duk escaped. Fung Do Duk broke his ties from Shil Lum in order to remain hidden from the Qing Emperor and the bounty that was placed on his head. Doo Tin Yin hid him.

Fung Do Duk passed his knowledge to Doo Tin Yin as the 1st generation Doo family inherited grandmaster of the White Tiger Kung Fu system of martial arts. The system of Bok Fu Pai was founded by Fung Do Duk and passed on by the Doo family.

Doo Wai's training was a mixed experience. His father was one of the 10 warlords under Chain kai Shek. He was the real deal, having been cross-trained with other influential martial masters. But he would add weird stuff to his curriculum. He once gave us the herbal antidote to Din Mak. Once prepared he decided to store it, not in the traditional wax. Instead, he covered it with magic shell (chocolate syrup that hardens over ice cream) and placed it in the freezer.

When I studied Dit bu Sam with him, (iron vest training), he insisted that I take an herb daily or bad things would happen to me. I had it analyzed. It was a pinch of freeze dried herbal tea you can get at any store in packages that cost about 50 cents. One day, he got pissed at me for suggesting he needed money. He sent me a video tape where he presented his family scrolls with herbal physician remedies in them. I took them to the Pacific College of Oriental Medicine. They immediately recognized the formulas as both authentic.

The master in the 2nd video stream you provided moves very well. From the feet through the bones and out the hands. His Yang style whips much more like Chen style. I use this whip slowly to throw people. Instead of going fast to throw a punch at an acupuncture point, I blend at the same speed of the attacker, uproot him and drop him as his center floats past his base. The lower body work acts like a cam. To me, this is the essence of good aikido. I may video some of my aiki-no-jitsu throws this weekend and post them if you like.

Chris Parkerson
02-02-2008, 01:00 PM
Finlay,

I videoed some Aiki no jitsu moves. You may see how Hsing-i and Bagua footwork do the major part of the irimi (entry and command of center) in these Aiki techniques.

I did them with a no-hands oruientation, thus I placed a long arm (M-4 rifle) in my hands to remove the temptation to use grips or strikes.

Aiki no Jitsu Gunman - Rifle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4RxEedbeFU