Poll: How comfortable are you in taking falls from aikido koshinage?

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[AikiWeb System]

AikiWeb Poll for the week of November 25, 2007:

How comfortable are you in taking falls from aikido koshinage?

I don't do aikido
We don't do koshinage
Perfectly comfortable
Very comfortable
Somewhat comfortable
Not very comfortable
Not at all comfortable


Here are the current results (http://www.aikiweb.com/polls/results.html?poll_id=403).

Cast your vote at the top right of this page (http://www.aikiweb.com).

[Qatana]

We only do koshinage on 1st kyu and above tests. At present we have two dojo members who are able to take ukemi for koshis, and one of them is on the testing panel. sometime in the next year I test for 1st Kyu and my immediate sempai will test for shodan and we will have to share the same uke.
Fortunately in oiur basics class we are Finally, after five years, doing intensive breakfall paractice, so when our current 4th & 5th kyus are ready, they will have an 18 year old girl and me to take ukemi for their tests. For some reason none of the 4th & 5ths feel it necessary for Them to still be in Basics class...

[MikeLogan]

I could fall from a correct koshinage all day. Now depending on the orientation of the throw, (some) nage's tendency to hold onto uke's arm can render two effects. The better effect is that uke can execute a breakfall, but finds themself partially suspended by nage still holding their arm. The worse effect is that uke cannot execute a breakfall because, yep, nage is still holding their arm.

Plenty of times in plenty of dojos I've thudded into the mat with my arm that should have made first contact still firmly in the hands of nage. My guess is that because koshinage is not as familiar for many of us as some other techniques, if we successfully mount uke for the throw it is at the expense of awareness of uke's predicament. Or, fearing for uke, we hold onto them as they go down to soften the fall, hehe, unintentionally hardening it. just an idea....

michael.

[khammack]

I've actually got a judo background, and it took me a while to figure out why people at my dojo treated it with such kid gloves.

Personally, I find it to be the most natural. But that's because all judo falls are essentially koshinage falls.

It's actually very dissatisfying for me the way people try to do it so slowly and carefully; I find that I can't even take it seriously unless I get slammed harder than gravity will take me. All in good time, I'm sure. ;-) I'm still an Aikido newbie.

-kev

[grondahl]

IMHO: Koshinage is probably the easiest throw to take breakfalls from if tori/nage knows how to actually throw (at least from 2 of 3 basic koshinage variations, the shihonage entry is a little more scary. The problem that I found with beginners is that they dont realize in what direction they should try to orient themselves so they become stiff and get spiked straight on their head if thrown. But that is easily fixed by doing slow throws where you actually guide them physically through the ukemi. Or even do some slow judo style koshinage first where you can secure their landing and then proceed to regular koshinage. The beginners that I have done this with have no problem taking ukemi from nice controlled koshinage within their first semester of aikido.

Another major problem with koshinage is that since the ukemi can feel a little bit awkward many people dont really practice the throw all the way through, stopping the throw after they have loaded uke up on the koshi. I have yet to find a good reason for that practice, it seems to me that it builds more bad habits (especially the habit of focusing on the loading of uke rather than letting uke fall over the koshi).

Of course, if you are allowed to do koshinage with your feet together as in judo (as opposed to hanmi) then the ukemi should be even easier.

[kironin]

We simply don't do them. We do sudori instead.

I am comfortable taking them from some one who knows how to lead correctly into a koshinage because I can relax into it. However, I took Judo for a while and the first class was O goshi. From that experience and visiting around a lot to other schools, I was able to get comfortable. Still as you get older, it isn't pleasant to take ukemi from someone who doesn't do a proper throw or tries to slam you.

[Amir Krause]

I am very uncomfortable in taking these Ukemi, even though I believe have already done it a few hundred times. It seems I have some mental elements that simply forces me t cringe and grasp Tori when he throws me.
I have sometimes gave special attention and activly tried to stop myself, and still, had a very hard time about it.

I talked with my Sensei aobut this, he said it probably has to do with te lack of any control over the fall in such throws, compared to the typical Aikido Ukemi in which one elects to fall to "save himself".

Amir

[SmilingNage]

All I can say is weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

[MikeLogan]

I talked with my Sensei aobut this, he said it probably has to do with the lack of any control over the fall in such throws, compared to the typical Aikido Ukemi in which one elects to fall to "save himself".
This 'control over the fall' is given to uke by nage. In kaitenage we don't grasp the neck, we simply weigh it down. In shihonage for people not capable or ready for the breakfall, we loosen it up. Sometimes nage forgets, especially in goofy koshis.
michael.

[grondahl]

Based on my own experience, I disagree. Even if it´s probably perfectly possible I have yet to encounter a shihonage that actually throws people in to a breakfall. I have encountered shihonages that took my balance and locked me up so that I could´t´t walk away and instead went straight down but never actually thrown as in for instance koshinage or iriminage. The breakfall in shihonage is always the choice of uke (maybe a choice between a dislocated elbow and safe ukemi but still a choice), in a well performed hipthrow you dont have any choice….

This 'control over the fall' is given to uke by nage. In kaitenage we don't grasp the neck, we simply weigh it down. In shihonage for people not capable or ready for the breakfall, we loosen it up. Sometimes nage forgets, especially in goofy koshis.
michael.

[Walter Martindale]

Judo background also (shodan, but long, long ago). If nage knows how to throw, ukemi is pretty much like judo and easy to land. If nage isn't confident, then ukemi can end up on a "corner" from nage trying to protect uke too much - takes away the rhythm of the throw.
W

[Shannon Frye]

Judo background here (as with some earilier posts). I was surprised to find that koshi nage was the biggest, baddest and "most feared" throw. After judo class, Ikoshi nage is a snap.

However, as earlier stated, it can be a nightmare if you are dealing with (being thrown by) someone inexperienced with the throw. I remember a training session where a yudansha (I was kyu rank) was getting upset with me, because he just didn't "get it", and all my help was embarrassing him.

[Qatana]

We have a dojo member with a jiu jutsu background. On his shodan test he did variations that his uke knew nothing about. he did, however, have a really Good uke.

[Faith Hansen]

I agree that taking a good fall from koshinage depends a lot on your nage. My ukemi is pretty good and I've taken some pretty icky falls out of koshinage because my partner "freaked out" in the middle of it. Taking the throw from an experienced nage is pretty fun though.

I think the danger in not training these techniques or falls at all is that there may be times at seminars and such that you will need this knowledge to prevent yourself from getting hurt. We don't train breakfalls out of everything in our dojo because it is hard on your body and we have a great deal of older students....but we prepare them enough to take a breakfall if necessary to prevent injury. My Sensei always says that the two most dangerous people at seminars are the malicious and the inept. You should be prepared for both just in case. :)

[Joe Jutsu]

I voted "Perfectly comfortable," even though we don't "do" koshinage's in Ki Society anymore (which KILLS me much more than the ukemi!) I've only taken aikido koshinage's a couple of times, but after doing a judo demo at the KC Japan Fest a couple of months ago without a day of judo under my belt (an acquaintance from college broke all her uke's and needed a hand), I was feeling them. But then again I bounce well...

[MikeLogan]

(maybe a choice between a dislocated elbow and safe ukemi but still a choice)While technically a choice, it's one most people would never make, but the chance to even perform ukemi as an option is only earned through practice. Depending on nage's execution of shihonage, as you say, uke has the choice, but it has to be perceived.

The shihonage that ends with uke in a backfall position before nage, I believe, would likely produce the same effect on an untrained individual. The shiho that calls for a breakfall escape is not a throw so much as it is a nasty arm bar. An arm-f.u.b.a.r. if you will, and someone with no clue of what was coming should expect to hear some grisly popping sounds.

That makes me wonder about the actual use of some aikido 'throws'. If you actually did a kotogaeshi, or kaitenage on an aggressor, it seems you would have more likely a chance of wrecking a joint or kicking someone in the face.

dunno, happy friday folks. Seminar tomorrow. I doubt Koshi is on the menu, but I bet it could be arranged.

michael.

[Ron Tisdale]

Even if it´s probably perfectly possible I have yet to encounter a shihonage that actually throws people in to a breakfall.

Yoshinkan shihonage kuzushi (the arm is straight, not bent).

Daito ryu versions of shihonage (the arm is straight, elbow locked out, wrist locked out, shoulder pretty much locked).

You can't break fall? You can be broken :D ...not so much on the first but definately on the second. :eek:

Which is not to say that anyone can get those severe locks on anyone in a "live" setting. Like anything else, experience and general toughness counts.

Best,
Ron

[Amir Krause]

This 'control over the fall' is given to uke by nage. In kaitenage we don't grasp the neck, we simply weigh it down. In shihonage for people not capable or ready for the breakfall, we loosen it up. Sometimes nage forgets, especially in goofy koshis.
michael.

Based on my own experience, I disagree. Even if it´s probably perfectly possible I have yet to encounter a shihonage that actually throws people in to a breakfall. I have encountered shihonages that took my balance and locked me up so that I could´t´t walk away and instead went straight down but never actually thrown as in for instance koshinage or iriminage. The breakfall in shihonage is always the choice of uke (maybe a choice between a dislocated elbow and safe ukemi but still a choice), in a well performed hipthrow you dont have any choice….

I agree that taking a good fall from koshinage depends a lot on your nage. My ukemi is pretty good and I've taken some pretty icky falls out of koshinage because my partner "freaked out" in the middle of it. Taking the throw from an experienced nage is pretty fun though.

I think the danger in not training these techniques or falls at all is that there may be times at seminars and such that you will need this knowledge to prevent yourself from getting hurt. We don't train breakfalls out of everything in our dojo because it is hard on your body and we have a great deal of older students....but we prepare them enough to take a breakfall if necessary to prevent injury. My Sensei always says that the two most dangerous people at seminars are the malicious and the inept. You should be prepared for both just in case. :)

While technically a choice, it's one most people would never make, but the chance to even perform ukemi as an option is only earned through practice. Depending on nage's execution of shihonage, as you say, uke has the choice, but it has to be perceived.

The shihonage that ends with uke in a backfall position before nage, I believe, would likely produce the same effect on an untrained individual. The shiho that calls for a breakfall escape is not a throw so much as it is a nasty arm bar. An arm-f.u.b.a.r. if you will, and someone with no clue of what was coming should expect to hear some grisly popping sounds.

That makes me wonder about the actual use of some aikido 'throws'. If you actually did a kotogaeshi, or kaitenage on an aggressor, it seems you would have more likely a chance of wrecking a joint or kicking someone in the face.

dunno, happy friday folks. Seminar tomorrow. I doubt Koshi is on the menu, but I bet it could be arranged.

michael.

Yoshinkan shihonage kuzushi (the arm is straight, not bent).

Daito ryu versions of shihonage (the arm is straight, elbow locked out, wrist locked out, shoulder pretty much locked).

You can't break fall? You can be broken :D ...not so much on the first but definately on the second. :eek:

Which is not to say that anyone can get those severe locks on anyone in a "live" setting. Like anything else, experience and general toughness counts.

Best,
Ron

I think I said it all in the first place: "I talked with my Sensei aobut this, he said it probably has to do with te lack of any control over the fall in such throws, compared to the typical Aikido Ukemi in which one elects to fall to "save himself".

Note the last statement. Most other throws we have, including, Shiho-Nage, Kote-Gaishi, Ikkyo.And Kaiten-Nage, and many others, in all of those Uke controls his fall, and makes a choice to save the broken joint this way.

Even if I loose my balance, I still have a choice and control in those falls and many others. I do not have that choice nor the same control in Koshi Nage or the shoulder throws (forgot the Japanese name) and a few others. And this makes my Ukemi for them very poor. Everyone has his own weak points.

Amir

[ChrisMoses]

I think I said it all in the first place: "I talked with my Sensei aobut this, he said it probably has to do with te lack of any control over the fall in such throws, compared to the typical Aikido Ukemi in which one elects to fall to "save himself".

Note the last statement. Most other throws we have, including, Shiho-Nage, Kote-Gaishi, Ikkyo.And Kaiten-Nage, and many others, in all of those Uke controls his fall, and makes a choice to save the broken joint this way.

Even if I loose my balance, I still have a choice and control in those falls and many others. I do not have that choice nor the same control in Koshi Nage or the shoulder throws (forgot the Japanese name) and a few others. And this makes my Ukemi for them very poor. Everyone has his own weak points.

Amir

Here's the problem I have with your statement. I do not consider *any* throw where uke falls solely to save themselves from injury as real aiki. It may be good solid waza, but it's jujutsu kansetsu/nage waza and not aiki. Real aiki, with real kuzushi (not the running around crap you usually see) gives uke just about as much control over their ability to fall or not as a good koshinage (o-goshi or the more classic across the back version in the Aikikai). Aiki waza creates the exact same imbalances in uke and the same dependencies on nage as o-goshi, harai goshi or osoto gari (all throws that could be considered koshinage). Real aiki leaves uke wondering what happened, not a joint strained to the point of failure followed by a heroic leap to safety.

We don't allow many inexperienced folks to train at our dojo, but the couple that have been allowed in, focus on falling from osoto gari, and then o-goshi. Aside from the solo stuff, that's basically all they do for months and months. If you can't take those two basic falls, you will be very limited in what you can study and frankly, they're just not that difficult to learn *if the person throwing you actually knows what they're doing*. I can throw nearly anyone, even someone with no ukemi experience, up to about 250 lbs in koshinage/ogoshi and set them down on the mat in front of me.