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Tijani1150
11-01-2007, 04:52 PM
I dislocated my knee during practise last Tuesday and I was wondering if anyone has gone through this horrible experience and how did that implicate their practise of Aikido after they healed?

is it easy to come back?

are you ever the same in terms of flexibility and movment and speed?

what are the chances of the knee going out of place again specialy if I refuse to have an operation..

etc etc ..... please share

damn I hate this :dead: I just can't comprehend that I will have stay out of Aikido for a while NOOOOOOOOOO

SeiserL
11-01-2007, 05:10 PM
I just can't comprehend that I will have stay out of Aikido for a while NOOOOOOOOOO
Stay out temporarily or stay out out permanently.
Listen to the doctors.
Do your rehab exercises.
Injuries are fast, healing is slow.
If you are going the make distance, get used to it.

Janet Rosen
11-01-2007, 10:11 PM
What he said! Take time to heal AND to rehab.
Ask your doc(s) if there is any factor that might be predisposing you to this - for example, sometimes a chronic imbalance btwn the medial and lateral parts of the quadriceps muscles makes the kneecap skew to one side and this can be lessened by targeted exercise, or sometimes there is laxity in the ligament or tendon that a sports specialist could suggest a way to compensate for.

Tijani1150
11-01-2007, 10:25 PM
I am to see an orthapedic in 4 days I just hope he/she wont mention the need for an operation because that it an automatic 6 months off practise what is frustrating and disappointing is that I frequently did weighted squats which is supposed to strengthen the knees and then this happens out of the blue.

Peter Goldsbury
11-01-2007, 11:31 PM
I think we all understand your frustration, but beware. If not dealt with properly, such injuries have a habit of coming back to haunt you later in life.

Walter Martindale
11-02-2007, 05:54 AM
Judo competition - British Columbia Winter Games.. 1979, Kamloops, BC - late March... I now have no anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) in my right knee.
It took me about 6 months to learn to not have my knee shift about when walking up stairs.
It took a couple of years to learn to move anywhere other than in a straight line without leaving my lower leg planted on the ground
I still have no Right ACL.
What worked for me... (your experience may be different and I take no responsibility for your experience)
I was in my late 20's and a grad student at U of British Columbia, with keys to the weight room - worked up to 4 sets of 20 leg press with 750 lb on the Global Gym. 4 sets of 10 hamstring curls with the weightstack on whatever machine it was in the gym at the time.
Got bored, started rowing with the UBC crew. Lower back gave out after 3 years and I took up coaching.
Started Aikido (long irrelevant story) in 1993 - still have no ACL, no where near as strong, but most of the time my knee cooperates.

As stated before your experience may differ.. However - the surgeries they offer now are way better, and prognosis is also way better than in 1980.... Have the operation (I'd suggest, anyway), rehab, recover, and have a long Aikido life.
W

crbateman
11-02-2007, 06:45 AM
All good advice so far... I would just like to add that being unable to physically perform on the mat for the time being does not mean that you cannot continue your learning process. Read, watch video, observe seminars, talk and exchange ideas with others, learn about the origins, history, evolution and other important information concerning Aikido. Keep your mind moving...

Tijani1150
11-02-2007, 12:22 PM
I get the feeling that things will not be the same again and this is what worried me mostly anyway I thank all of those who replied.

ChrisMoses
11-02-2007, 01:45 PM
What kind of dislocation was it, and what did you tear/stretch?

I dislocated my patella about 9 months into my aikido training. It was a combination of the over-exuberance of a new student and the footwork of European foil fencing which I had only quit doing a few months before. Sounded like a rock went through the wall of the dojo. My knee is not the same as it was before, never has been. I had to wear various stabilizer braces for years and years and had several subluctions/strains due to the looseness of that joint. The sword school I got involved with several years later put a lot of emphasis on leg strength and I was eventually able to ditch the braces and supports. It took a long time, but I'm finally able to jog again without pain, and while I can still feel a slight catch in the joint, it doesn't keep me from any of the activities that I love. As others have mentioned, getting your legs strong *and balanced* again will do wonders although be ready for a lot of hard work. Good luck.

Robert Rumpf
11-02-2007, 02:48 PM
I dislocated my knee during practise last Tuesday and I was wondering if anyone has gone through this horrible experience and how did that implicate their practise of Aikido after they healed?

is it easy to come back?

are you ever the same in terms of flexibility and movment and speed?

what are the chances of the knee going out of place again specialy if I refuse to have an operation..

etc etc ..... please share

damn I hate this :dead: I just can't comprehend that I will have stay out of Aikido for a while NOOOOOOOOOO

Hello Ahmed,

I dislocated my knee three times between ages 18-19 due to playing soccer. I had patella realignment knee surgery at 19 and started Aikido as a way of strengthening my knees, in lieu of physical therapy. I haven't had any problems with my knees since then, and its been 12 years or so. If I had it to do over again, I would have gotten physical therapy after the operation - I think I was lucky in retrospect to recover so well, and I credit that to Aikido, other activities, and my age.

Good luck!
Rob

Black_Blade
11-02-2007, 03:44 PM
I had the outer (lateral) meniscular cartilage removed on my right knee when I was 20-it was torn at some time in my childhood that I must have been unaware of. After the surgery, I did the usual physio therapy to get my knee back functioning again. It never gave no troubles until I began aikido training several yrs later...the extreme bending required in seiza and suwari waza did not agree with it at all and it would get really uncomfortable after a few seconds and I would have no choice but break out of seiza and just sit cross legged. This was fine with my sensei, but a source of chagrin for me, since I wished to learn all the aspects of the art.

Now, fast forward about ten years later...I am taking up training again and of course am running into the same trouble...limited range of bending and swelling. This time around I wish to really do as much as I can to counter this, so will be seeing my doctor and maybe a surgeon for advice on the best things to do. There are many others in my club with knee braces and other knee problems...and they have been able to continue their training (my sensei included) so that is encouraging...so hopefully I can get on top of this problem.

Janet Rosen
11-02-2007, 05:00 PM
Reply to last poster, Chris, who is w/o lateral meniscus cartilage.

Many folks who have missing meniscus end up with an imbalance in how the femur rests on the lower leg bone, which eventually leads to osteoarthritis at the lower end of the femur, as well as sort of throwing all the other support structures into misalignment. We are able to stay active and do well, but.....

...seiza and seated technique place incredible stresses on the internal workings of the knee and I humbly suggest you consider yourself too high risk to incorporate them into your training.

hullu
11-02-2007, 08:46 PM
How much did it hurt?

Tijani1150
11-02-2007, 09:31 PM
How much did it hurt?

lets just say I don't wish that pain I went through to even my worse enemy, yes thats how bad it is, to the extent that while I was screaming from pain I forced my self and straightened my leg so the cap can go back in place to hopefuly ease the pain.

I humnbly suggest to all those reading this to consider wearing an elastic knee brace during practise even if your knees are the tuffest in the world as it could happen to anyone.

Beard of Chuck Norris
11-03-2007, 07:05 AM
My right knee is utter rubbish, seiza is only a problem for me because i have really big thighs. The pain comes from taking ukemi again becasue i am rubbish and i forget my legs.

Having rubbish knees has made me move correctly on the mat (trying to do it outside too) my heels are never on the mat when i'm doing something.

You'll be given strengthening exercises to stabilise your knee cap, it will take time. Don't rush things, aikido is going no where.

That said, i wish you a speedy recovery! ;) :D

Peace and love

Jo

robert weatherall
11-03-2007, 07:14 AM
I dislocated my left knee 10 years ago while doing Aikido as an orange belt. I tore all my cruciate ligaments and damaged my popliteral artery meaning I had to have a arterial bypass to save the leg. I recently got my 1stDan so I hope that proves to you it is possible to come back form an serious injury and continue to make progress.

Is it easy to come back? No. It took me 18 months to learn to walk without a limp and about 3 years before I was back training. Sorry if that's depressing.

I would say I recovered around 98 per cent of my former abilities although people who have only met me since the accident tell me they can't see any problems with my movement or speed.

The chances of the knee going out of place again? That will depend on the individual and the severity of injury but undoubtedly it will be more likely. It's just how the body works once something pops out of place it makes it easier to pop out again. Whenever I walk onto the tatami there is always a little part of my mind which knows I might not walk off again. As for refusing to have an operation I would suggest that unwise. If your surgeon thinks an operation will improve your long term recovery go for it. Better to have some time off now than an injury which will always niggle and casue you problems.

Other advice.
The muscles around the knee can take over the role of the ligaments. You need to build them up with a combination of weight training (as already suggested) and running/cycling. Cycling can be easier as there is less impact on the knee.
Lateral movement shouldn;t be a problem but be careful when twisting. In aikido we all know we need firm well grounded footwork but we often have to twist our hips. Be careful when doing this.

Don't be afraid to sit out on certain techniques. When I am on a very crowded mat and i see people crashing into each other with rolls I sit out or help the lower grades. Ultimately it is up to you to protect yourself when training.

Ahmed. You right about the pain. I was told later I squealled like an animal being tortured.

roman naly
11-08-2007, 01:34 AM
I've done my patella tendon and dislocated my knee (not aikido - weekend warrior injury). This happened three months ago. At the time I thought that I would never train again, but as time has progressed it has healed quite well. Physio still 3 times a week but this is very important as you can't rush these things. Still a few months away from training again, but it will happen. So chin up and listen to the experts.

Bronson
11-08-2007, 02:07 AM
There are many others in my club with knee braces and other knee problems...

Are most of these due to the aikido training? If so this, to me, is a red flag especially if you already have knee problems.

Bronson

aikidoc
11-08-2007, 06:31 PM
A lot depends on what you mean by dislocated. If you tore the cruciate ligaments, they can be repaired surgically if you have a good orthopedist. Seiza might be rough on them. If you tore cartilage, there is also a lot that can be done. You may need to wear a knee brace with any return to practice depending on the nature of your injury.

Marc Abrams
11-08-2007, 06:56 PM
I have mixed Chinese medicine with western medicine, with great results. I find that accupuncture, bone-setting, and their medicines facilitate quicker healing for bone, joint, and connective tissue injuries.

The best piece of advice that I give people is to remember the amount of time (after you get the problem fixed) that it took for the injury to stop hurting. Then realize you are half-way home. Most people re-injure themselves at this point in time, because they believe that just because there is no more pain, they can go full-tilt again (I did that enough times in my ignorant youth!). The road to recovery is always too slow, so simply relax and enjoy the scenery on the way to recovery.

Marc Abrams

Nikopol
11-08-2007, 08:43 PM
I dislocated my knee during practise last Tuesday and I was wondering if anyone has gone through this horrible experience and how did that implicate their practise of Aikido after they healed?

damn I hate this :dead: I just can't comprehend that I will have stay out of Aikido for a while NOOOOOOOOOO

I am probably repeating advice here, but have been through knee injuries myself.

First off, let it heal. That gives you something to do. Warm baths, massage with ointments such as tiger balm. This is a chance to spend some quality time with your knees and you will come away with a better understanding of them.

Think about how and why you injured yourself. Probably going too quickly. So now that nature has slowed you down by force, to be in a hurry now is to increase your risk and lose the lesson.

Read some Aikido books, watch some Aikido videos, practice at home slowly, carefully. The time is not lost.

When you can go back to the dojo, show up equipped with your new and improved training style. That is, not to force or rush yourself at the expense of your body.

それでは、 お大事に :)

Janet Rosen
11-08-2007, 09:16 PM
First off, let it heal. That gives you something to do. Warm baths, massage with ointments such as tiger balm.

During the acute phase of a soft tissue injury, when there is swelling and inflammation, cold packs/ice are actually recommended (along w/ elevation) to reduce the swelling.
Heat is more typically used in chronic injury or in acute muscle spasm.

Tiger balm will not do anything for dislocations or torn structures. Its active ingredients are the same as those in BenGay and all other "heat" causing ointments that work to distract you from pain by creating local sensory nerve irritation.

Nikopol
11-08-2007, 09:46 PM
During the acute phase of a soft tissue injury, when there is swelling and inflammation, cold packs/ice are actually recommended (along w/ elevation) to reduce the swelling.
Heat is more typically used in chronic injury or in acute muscle spasm.

Tiger balm will not do anything for dislocations or torn structures. Its active ingredients are the same as those in BenGay and all other "heat" causing ointments that work to distract you from pain by creating local sensory nerve irritation.

While cold is used to stop swelling in the short term it is not good for joints and contributes to the buildup of fluids (water on the knee). To facilitate the healing process, restoring the integrity of the joint and flexibility, heat is required.

Tiger balm will do wonders by encouraging blood flow. Contrary to the statement that it will 'distract you from pain' (absurd), it will alleviate pain without the use of invasive medications.

I know that there is a lot of swelling with that dislocation. As soon as you can be weaned off of the ice, my advice is intended to get you back in the dojo with good knees.

I've been through and seen it all from Aikido to football (soccer) injuries.

Janet Rosen
11-08-2007, 11:25 PM
Tiger balm will do wonders by encouraging blood flow. Contrary to the statement that it will 'distract you from pain' (absurd), it will alleviate pain without the use of invasive medications.

Most of the research I have seen on the rubs using camphor, cassia, capsicum, etc indicates that they stimulate the sensory nerves, providing a sensation of heat. This essentially overloads the sensory nerves (as in occupying receptor sites and temporarily interfering w/ neurotransmittors) and yes the effect is to distract you from the pain by providing an alternate sensory input. This is NOT absurd. This makes us of a known property of sensory nerves.
(and I would add that the principle of mental distraction for the treatment of pain is also well documented and highly effective)

Nikopol
11-09-2007, 01:23 AM
Most of the research I have seen on the rubs using camphor, cassia, capsicum, etc indicates that they stimulate the sensory nerves, providing a sensation of heat. This essentially overloads the sensory nerves (as in occupying receptor sites and temporarily interfering w/ neurotransmittors) and yes the effect is to distract you from the pain by providing an alternate sensory input. This is NOT absurd. This makes us of a known property of sensory nerves.
(and I would add that the principle of mental distraction for the treatment of pain is also well documented and highly effective)

Okay, apply some research and call me in the morning :)

Ahmed, I wish you a speedy recovery.

Infantryman1990
11-15-2007, 10:51 PM
i hurt my knee and didn't get it treated, was never the same.

then i had knee surgery and it took me out for six months but i WAS able to come back.

When I was young, 6 months felt like a lifetime. . . now, I see six months is the smallest price to pay when a lifetime can last 80 years.

Do what's right for your body. aikido isnt' going anywhere.

Nikopol
11-16-2007, 01:53 AM
Reply to last poster, Chris, who is w/o lateral meniscus cartilage.

Many folks who have missing meniscus end up with an imbalance in how the femur rests on the lower leg bone, which eventually leads to osteoarthritis at the lower end of the femur, as well as sort of throwing all the other support structures into misalignment. We are able to stay active and do well, but.....

...seiza and seated technique place incredible stresses on the internal workings of the knee and I humbly suggest you consider yourself too high risk to incorporate them into your training.

this 'suggestion' should be taken with a grain of salt.

The amount of time you are going to spend doing suwariwaza is not going to add up to many hours; driving a car or even walking, will do more long-term damage, looking at the big picture.

Some of us who have actually had surgical removal of the meniscus, would rather advise you to exercise a little caution, and give your body proper care and attention, so that you will be able to recover, return to Aikido, and be healthier and in less discomfort than if you had quit.

Anyone who has had meniscus trimming or removal should be considering ways to rebuild the cartilage, through diet and supplements.

After a general injury to a joint you need to focus on incremental restoration of the integrity of the joint. If surgery is not required, or has been completed, it's time to start. Like any fitness regime, you will see the results in time.

Don't be discouraged if someone does a google search and comes on like an expert ready to turn you away from getting better.

Bodies do heal, and you as the occupant can help.

Nikopol
11-16-2007, 02:22 AM
Sorry for the bump,

Many folks who have missing meniscus end up with an imbalance in how the femur rests on the lower leg bone, which eventually leads to osteoarthritis at the lower end of the femur, as well as sort of throwing all the other support structures into misalignment. We are able to stay active and do well, but.....



If in fact, Janet has had surgery on the meniscus I apologize for
assuming she had not.

but.....

...seiza and seated technique place incredible stresses on the internal workings of the knee..

Only if you are crap at suwariwaza.

I will dissapear now and not be back. :) If anyone needs encouragement to aget through their rehab feel free to PM me.

Janet Rosen
11-16-2007, 12:23 PM
Hi, Vincent. No problem. Room for many perspectives. And I hope you don't disappear!

I'm a RN who has worked in acute rehab AND a person who has had 3 knee surgeries following an aikido training accident. I try not to generalize just from personal experience, but also take into account many interviews I've done w/ orthopedists, athletic trainers, and physical therapists specifically on risk factors.

It is very true as you say that "daily living" on a missing or partly missing meniscus, in itself does promote uneven wear and tear.

And it is also true that there have been many people who come back, slowly, from worse injuries and ailments than torn meniscus, to do very active and athletic aikido. The ability to heal in the face of naysaying doctors (and my cautions... heheheheh) is astonishing and inspiring.

So, my role here is to be a voice of caution. There are dojos that do a significant amount of time training in suwariwaza and it does put incredible internal stresses on the knee. If a person w/o a prior meniscus problem can suffer a spontaneous tear from getting up from seiza or from going into lotus position (I have heard of more than one case of each of these) then I will continue to caution that suwariwaza is a high risk activity for people with prior knee injuries.

Should none of us/them DO suwariwaza? No, it is an invididual decision. But it should be an informed one.

Tijani1150
11-19-2007, 05:31 PM
So, my role here is to be a voice of caution. There are dojos that do a significant amount of time training in suwariwaza and it does put incredible internal stresses on the knee. If a person w/o a prior meniscus problem can suffer a spontaneous tear from getting up from seiza or from going into lotus position (I have heard of more than one case of each of these) then I will continue to caution that suwariwaza is a high risk activity for people with prior knee injuries.

Should none of us/them DO suwariwaza? No, it is an invididual decision. But it should be an informed one.

What about Shiko Ho Janet I take it its as bad as suwariwaza right? anyways I will have my MRI this evening I pray nothing is torn.

Janet Rosen
11-19-2007, 08:09 PM
Ahmed, best of luck tonight!!!
The best adviser will be your own doc and rehab team.
Hoping the test is a-ok and you can just do a nice slow rehab back to form.

Nikopol
12-05-2007, 01:45 AM
Hi, Vincent. No problem. Room for many perspectives. And I hope you don't disappear!

I'm a RN who has worked in acute rehab AND a person who has had 3 knee surgeries following an aikido training accident. I try not to generalize just from personal experience, but also take into account many interviews I've done w/ orthopedists, athletic trainers, and physical therapists specifically on risk factors.

It is very true as you say that "daily living" on a missing or partly missing meniscus, in itself does promote uneven wear and tear.

And it is also true that there have been many people who come back, slowly, from worse injuries and ailments than torn meniscus, to do very active and athletic aikido. The ability to heal in the face of naysaying doctors (and my cautions... heheheheh) is astonishing and inspiring.

So, my role here is to be a voice of caution. There are dojos that do a significant amount of time training in suwariwaza and it does put incredible internal stresses on the knee. If a person w/o a prior meniscus problem can suffer a spontaneous tear from getting up from seiza or from going into lotus position (I have heard of more than one case of each of these) then I will continue to caution that suwariwaza is a high risk activity for people with prior knee injuries.

Should none of us/them DO suwariwaza? No, it is an invididual decision. But it should be an informed one.

Hey Janet,

Am back, was actually kind of frazzled and busy as there was major testing at my dojo. I'm glad you didn't take offense at my remarks! I was just looking at your website, and as a fellow New Yorker and artist was pleased with what I saw, and read about your knee damage. ACL... that's one I have managed to avoid.

Anyways living in Japan I suppose I have more opportunity to rehabilitate my seza, having tatami at home, so I just want to let people know that they can do it, but by all means with caution and common sense.

Shikoho, Seiza and Suwariwaza, the dreaded S3 are not ruled out for post-injury, but never try to work through the pain. Work on your Seiza in a hot jacuzzi. As a veteran of knee damage, we now have incentive to learn to do the S3 correctly... If they are causing pain, bow out. They are not meant to hurt if done correctly. In shikoho, try the trick of pausing for a fraction of second each time you advance a 'step'... it should not be visible but will help avoid new injuries.

Peace all!