MMA and Aiki Expo

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[Roman Kremianski]

Giancarlo DiPierro: No matter what theories you will come up with, everything will always go back to one thing: MMA.

[Aikibu]

Giancarlo DiPierro: No matter what theories you will come up with, everything will always go back to one thing: MMA.

Nope... Automatic weapons are more effective than MMA. Come to think of it Air Support and Naval Gunfire are not that bad...Then there's tactical nukes

This is where this line of thinking leads if all it's about is "effectiveness"... Why then should Joe Citizen invest his time and practice anything outside of a combat pistol range???

Perhaps the Martial Arts are about more than if "my Chop Sockey is better than your Chop Sockey."

O'Sensei, Kano, and Funakoshi among others seemed to think so...If all I wanted to do is destroy every opponent I face "on the street" a CCW and a few hours at the range every week would suit me just fine...Hell I walked the earth with an M60 Machine Gun at one time....

What happen if both of us start shooting though..back to the old my combat pistol course is more effective than yours arguement I guess.:rolleyes:

William Hazen

[Roman Kremianski]

Nope... Automatic weapons are more effective than MMA. Come to think of it Air Support and Naval Gunfire are not that bad...Then there's tactical nukes

This is where this line of thinking leads if all it's about is "effectiveness"... Why then should Joe Citizen invest his time and practice anything outside of a combat pistol range???

You're right. And then there are tsunamis...and asteroids hitting the earth...and finally the universe vaporizing itself into nothing. Why bother even training MA?? We're all just dead. F'ing dead.

Sorry, but what you gave is an old reply thrown around for various reason. People don't give a crap about guns and bombs. No one simply cares. Bring your theory into an MMA gym: No one will care.

People just say it because they have no idea what else to say. Why bother resisting some shihan's technique in the first place? Just stab him...or pull out your 9mm and put a couple of caps in him.

Don't even bother learning anything ever...you'll only get shot, stabbed, or shelled by heavy artillery.

Wanna resist and topple a 130lb, 70 year old man? Great...remember to post about it on a forum later so people can point out the obscurity in that.

I'd also like to provide a thanks for taking the time to answer for Giancarlo. I am sure he appreciates it.

[mathewjgano]

Giancarlo DiPierro: No matter what theories you will come up with, everything will always go back to one thing: MMA.

How do you mean?

[Aikibu]

You're right. And then there are tsunamis...and asteroids hitting the earth...and finally the universe vaporizing itself into nothing. Why bother even training MA?? We're all just dead. F'ing dead.

Sorry, but what you gave is an old reply thrown around for various reason. People don't give a crap about guns and bombs. No one simply cares. Bring your theory into an MMA gym: No one will care.

People just say it because they have no idea what else to say. Why bother resisting some shihan's technique in the first place? Just stab him...or pull out your 9mm and put a couple of caps in him.

Don't even bother learning anything ever...you'll only get shot, stabbed, or shelled by heavy artillery.

Wanna resist and topple a 130lb, 70 year old man? Great...remember to post about it on a forum later so people can point out the obscurity in that.

I'd also like to provide a thanks for taking the time to answer for Giancarlo. I am sure he appreciates it.

Thank you more making my point for me.The logic of conflict and escalation is not a reason for practice MMA or Aikido.So why do you continue to tout it using MMA???


Also as Budd mentioned we have our fun with some MMA guy a while back...like you suggested... No one cared when he walked into the Aiki-Expo with his claims of MMA mastery and Aikido's "in-effectiveness".... He was givin the opportunity to demonstrate his MMA's "superiority" with a Sensei who was about 15 years older than him.

he lasted less than 5 minutes.

There were top Aiki Shihan, Judoka, Koryu, and Systema Teachers in an atmosphere of respect and learning. The only one with an attitude was Mister MMA.

So it works both ways...

Some of the MMA proponents here smack of zealotry and I have seen this before... Everytime something new comes out. Folks love to pick on Aikido and have been doing it for decades.Perhaps because it takes more courage to love and connect with ones opponents than it does to destroy them.Beating on someone is the easy way out... My point is if destruction is your goal buy a gun or join the military where you get to play with the big toys... Somehow despite most young men's infatuation with with winning and destruction... Aikido thrives and continues to experiment and grow. I will practice it until the end of my days...

Just the way O'Sensei and Nishio Shihan would have wished it for me and the millions of others who know the difference.

MMA has it's place, My respect, and I love it... But until it develops a solid ethical and spiritual structure like every other sport and/or physical endevor.... It is a house of cards and risks falling at the whim of the crowd.

William Hazen

[Roman Kremianski]

he lasted less than 5 minutes.

Video please?
Hehe, come on, don't say you didn't see that coming.

[Aikibu]

Video please?
Hehe, come on, don't say you didn't see that coming.

Nope no Video however it was witnessed by George Ledyard, Ellis Amdur, Toby Threadgill, Stan Pranin, Julio Turibo, and a host of other distingushed Shihan and Sensei's.

Guess you'll just have to take our word for it. :)

William Hazen

Ohh and one of the folks I mentioned was Mister MMA's humble Uke...:D

[L. Camejo]

Nope no Video however it was witnessed by George Ledyard, Ellis Amdur, Toby Threadgill, Stan Pranin, Julio Turibo, and a host of other distingushed Shihan and Sensei's.

Guess you'll just have to take our word for it. :)

William Hazen

Ohh and one of the folks I mentioned was Mister MMA's humble Uke...:DI remember speaking to Sensei Ledyard a bit about this after the event. Wasn't some of MT's "session" documented in the Aiki Expo DVD for that year? From how it sounded I'm sure there are those who have this on personal video, but I'm not sure if it will be publicly available.

[George S. Ledyard]

I remember speaking to Sensei Ledyard a bit about this after the event. Wasn't some of MT's "session" documented in the Aiki Expo DVD for that year? From how it sounded I'm sure there are those who have this on personal video, but I'm not sure if it will be publicly available.

To be fair, the guy we are talking about was pretty much delusional. His skill level in Aikido wasn't even 5th kyu, his lack of any conditioning indicated that he had never done any serious mixed martial arts training, he was unable to do the most basic covering moves against a jab, and had less than no idea how to shoot for someones legs. It would be very inaccurate to draw any conclusions whatever about Aikido or Mixed Martial Arts from this fellows performance at the Expo. It turned out later that he wasn't even a yudansha in anything.

[Aikibu]

To be fair, the guy we are talking about was pretty much delusional. His skill level in Aikido wasn't even 5th kyu, his lack of any conditioning indicated that he had never done any serious mixed martial arts training, he was unable to do the most basic covering moves against a jab, and had less than no idea how to shoot for someones legs. It would be very inaccurate to draw any conclusions whatever about Aikido or Mixed Martial Arts from this fellows performance at the Expo. It turned out later that he wasn't even a yudansha in anything.

I disagree with you Sensei Ledyard...You are being more than fair LOL....:D

William Hazen

[Budd]

It's been my experience that lots of people that run their mouths are delusional about their skill levels. I also have met a few exceptions, but it usually tends to be the former rather than the latter.

[SeiserL]

I am not sure what MMA and the Expo have to do with each other, but there was some great cross training there.

So, here it comes again. LOL

[Dewey]

It's been my experience that lots of people that run their mouths are delusional about their skill levels. I also have met a few exceptions, but it usually tends to be the former rather than the latter.

Yup. That's pretty much it...regardless or what style/art they claim to train in.

[George S. Ledyard]

I remember speaking to Sensei Ledyard a bit about this after the event. Wasn't some of MT's "session" documented in the Aiki Expo DVD for that year? From how it sounded I'm sure there are those who have this on personal video, but I'm not sure if it will be publicly available.
Hi Larry,
There are a small number of folks who have that clip. It might be that at some party some day, with sufficient liquid inducement, someone might pull out one of the copies... But it's pretty pathetic stuff... you feel a bit embarrassed to be laughing.
- George

[Marc Abrams]

As one of the "participants" in "The Folly at the Expo", I would like to chime in on George's comments.

That clown at the Expo had nothing to contribute to the effectiveness/ineffectiveness of Aikido, or anything having to do with Aikido against MMA. The clown was a clear example of an individual with significant psychological issues (my opinion) who was lucky to have survived his encounters with consensual reality.

The video clips are not really worth watching, even inebriated, unless you MUST see what not to do as a martial artist.

Marc Abrams

[gdandscompserv]

Sounds like a train wreck to me. And you know how humans are with train wrecks! Rubber-neckers, all of you!

[Aikibu]

As one of the "participants" in "The Folly at the Expo", I would like to chime in on George's comments.

That clown at the Expo had nothing to contribute to the effectiveness/ineffectiveness of Aikido, or anything having to do with Aikido against MMA. The clown was a clear example of an individual with significant psychological issues (my opinion) who was lucky to have survived his encounters with consensual reality.

The video clips are not really worth watching, even inebriated, unless you MUST see what not to do as a martial artist.

Marc Abrams

great post Marc....My point in bringing this up is simple...Those making claims about a Martial Arts "effectiveness" or thier Arts superiority "on the internets" sooner or later will have a chance to demonstrate exactly what they mean...With all the posts around here that attack Aikido... This experiance for me was a great reminder that the Aikido community is a viberant and constantly changing collective of dedicated Martial Artists who take thier practice very seriously and, is nothing like some of the posters here have portrayed...

My Point....It's easy to Talk the Talk. Walking the Walk takes dedication, focus, hard practice, and a lifetime to accomplish....

My experiance of the Expo is that it was filled folks who love what they do, and are committed to helping others improve thier lives through serious practice. I was honored to be among them and learn from them.

William Hazen

[Marc Abrams]

William:

My opinion, based upon my experiences, is that much of this gum-flapping is nothing more than a juvenile, prepubescent wiener contest. Much of it is testosterone-driven, drivel, that typically thrives more in other types of martial arts than Aikido. I do not know, or know of Giancarlo, but his comments fit neatly within that category. I agree with your assessment of the Expo, in that almost all of the people were sincere martial artist, who strove to share their knowledge bases, trained hard, and looked to expand and improve on where they were.

I think that it was Ikeda Sensei who turned around the question, "Is Aikido effective?" to "Is your Aikido effective?" Sincere martial artists (at least the ones that I know) all strive to improve upon what they do, based upon what they are learning, and who they are learning from. Those people do not have to brag about stopping instructors, or being better than other people. Frankly, a person that is stuck in that paradigm should have a difficult time executing Aikido. You cannot blend and harmonize if you are so stuck on how good you are. In the end, who really gives a damn who we are better than, and which people are better than us. I am simply interested in maintaining a "beginner's mind" and learn from people who I believe I have a lot to learn from. At the same time, I take my responsibility of teaching very seriously, and try and give to my students, that which I think that I know. I make a sincere effort to do so, in a manner that can effectively and efficiently convey the information.

I think that we would all be better off if we simply try and ignore the "wiener contests" and focus in on our sincerely learning, while sharing what we learn with those around us. Many of us privately cross-train, or share ideas with martial artists from other styles. We do not have to advertise what we do, or how effectively we do it. If we have a lot to talk about in terms or these areas, without having to engage in fruitless, egotistical discussions.

Train Hard, Stay Well

Marc Abrams

[L. Camejo]

Hi Larry,
There are a small number of folks who have that clip. It might be that at some party some day, with sufficient liquid inducement, someone might pull out one of the copies... But it's pretty pathetic stuff... you feel a bit embarrassed to be laughing.
- GeorgeHi George,

I remember getting the lowdown from those in attendance directly after that Expo. It sounded quite painful and sad so I have no need to see the video. Roman was asking about video (else it "never happened") hence my post.

Happy Training.

[Aikibu]

William:

My opinion, based upon my experiences, is that much of this gum-flapping is nothing more than a juvenile, prepubescent wiener contest. Much of it is testosterone-driven, drivel, that typically thrives more in other types of martial arts than Aikido. I do not know, or know of Giancarlo, but his comments fit neatly within that category. I agree with your assessment of the Expo, in that almost all of the people were sincere martial artist, who strove to share their knowledge bases, trained hard, and looked to expand and improve on where they were.

I think that it was Ikeda Sensei who turned around the question, "Is Aikido effective?" to "Is your Aikido effective?" Sincere martial artists (at least the ones that I know) all strive to improve upon what they do, based upon what they are learning, and who they are learning from. Those people do not have to brag about stopping instructors, or being better than other people. Frankly, a person that is stuck in that paradigm should have a difficult time executing Aikido. You cannot blend and harmonize if you are so stuck on how good you are. In the end, who really gives a damn who we are better than, and which people are better than us. I am simply interested in maintaining a "beginner's mind" and learn from people who I believe I have a lot to learn from. At the same time, I take my responsibility of teaching very seriously, and try and give to my students, that which I think that I know. I make a sincere effort to do so, in a manner that can effectively and efficiently convey the information.

I think that we would all be better off if we simply try and ignore the "wiener contests" and focus in on our sincerely learning, while sharing what we learn with those around us. Many of us privately cross-train, or share ideas with martial artists from other styles. We do not have to advertise what we do, or how effectively we do it. If we have a lot to talk about in terms or these areas, without having to engage in fruitless, egotistical discussions.

Train Hard, Stay Well

Marc Abrams

Amen Marc....In the future I will try not to let my passion for Budo get the best of me here. Being a Sober Irishman any excuse to get me fired up is the bane of my exsistance. LOL :D Time to chill and get back to doing what I love best "taking action" on my love for Aikido.

See you on the mat someday. :)

William Hazen

[gdandscompserv]

Did someone say, wiener roast?

Just kidding.
Well said Marc, thanks!

[Marc Abrams]

William:

Hope your school is safe with the fires going on in your area.

Look forward to an opportunity to train with you one day (hopefully soon!).

Marc Abrams

[ewhip]

William:

I think that it was Ikeda Sensei who turned around the question, "Is Aikido effective?" to "Is your Aikido effective?"

I'm so glad you posted this - it puts into words what I've been thinking for a long time whenever these conversations come up regardless of style.

[Will Prusner]

I find it humorous that this MMA v. Aikido debate rages on. It makes some sense to me that proponents of Aikido would feel some desire to defend their chosen art (although I personally do not. I think the Aikido tradition can fend for itself,just as it was long before I came along). But what I find truly funny is this: If you love MMA so much, wouldnt you want to spend your time reading all of the exciting stuff that's being posted on the MMA web forums that might help you in your MMA technique? Interesting, insightful stuff, that's applicable to the style you adore so much? But you keep comin back to the AikiWeb, you love it, you just can't stay away!!! Actions speak louder words, and the fact that the MMA guys keep posting is just proof that there is something very worthwhile (and attractive) about aikido.

[Aikibu]

William:

Hope your school is safe with the fires going on in your area.

Look forward to an opportunity to train with you one day (hopefully soon!).

Marc Abrams

Thanks Marc and God Bless You,

The fire is 4 miles south at present. I lived in Malibu since 84 and having been through fires, mudslides, flooding, and earthquakes All I can say is Nature is the ultimate Sensei. :)

William Hazen

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Video please?
Hehe, come on, don't say you didn't see that coming.

I have a small clip where some tall guy with blonde (grey) ponytail plays with Mr. MMA.

But i haven't drink enough to release it.
:)

[Marc Abrams]

William:

I did my doctorate down in San Diego. After I finished, I left from the land of "terra shake-ah" to the land of terra firma. I realized that if the ground was not shaking, the mud was not sliding, the fires were not being driven by the Santa Ana's, that it was just an empty day in California!:cool:

Enjoyed my time in Ca, but too much of a New Yorker in my heart. Although, plan to build a house on a nice piece of property that I own on Grand Cayman Island, when I retire. That is of course, if the island is not submerged as a result of the ice-cap melting from global warming!:eek: Love the beach, but hate the shakes and fires!

Lots of Love!

Marc Abrams

[Dewey]

I find it humorous that this MMA v. Aikido debate rages on. It makes some sense to me that proponents of Aikido would feel some desire to defend their chosen art (although I personally do not. I think the Aikido tradition can fend for itself,just as it was long before I came along). But what I find truly funny is this: If you love MMA so much, wouldnt you want to spend your time reading all of the exciting stuff that's being posted on the MMA web forums that might help you in your MMA technique? Interesting, insightful stuff, that's applicable to the style you adore so much? But you keep comin back to the AikiWeb, you love it, you just can't stay away!!! Actions speak louder words, and the fact that the MMA guys keep posting is just proof that there is something very worthwhile (and attractive) about aikido.

I think it has more to do with being an internet troll. Sometimes Trollshido just doesn't satisfy them anymore so they post over here to get their kicks. Yes, unfortunately there are such things as MMA trolls. It's more unfortunate that there are a few here. Wish they'd return from whence they came...

Even worse, in my opinion, are the "MMA evangelists" who preach the gospel of MMA and try to convert us. They claim not to care if we believe them or not concerning their opinions and conclusions about Aikido, but yet still keep posting in earnest, still trying to convince us of their viewpoint. Wish they'd also return from whence they came...

[Ron Tisdale]

Hmmm...I'm trying to imagine who these "trolls" are...

I can think of several people who contribute to this board who are participants in MMA training. None of the ones I'm thinking of remind me of "trolls" in the least. Not even a little bit.

Lessee...Budd, Kevin, Paul, Don, Keith, (and a few other names I can't remember) all make positive contributions to the board, even though their perspectives are often different from the "norm". But I appreciate their perspectives none the less.

They also seem to be very gentlemanly in their behavior online, as well as in person (for the ones I've met).

Best,
Ron

[Will Prusner]

All i'm saying is that if I love auto racing, I would be on the auto racing forum. Not on the canoeing forum, trying to convince those folks that canoeing is not a viable means of transportation.

(unless, I secretly love travelling via canoe, but don't want to admit it for some deep-seated personal reason... (ego, fear, ???))

[Ron Tisdale]

Again, your description does not match the posters I mentioned...

Perhaps you could be clearer as to whom you are referring...

After all, it could be that they enjoy BOTH aikido AND MMA...right?

Best,
Ron

[Will Prusner]

point taken, and no disrespect implied or intended toward any of the posters or their opinions. I am a huge supporter of diversity and have learned much from the opinions presented throughout the varied threads on this forum. I also enjoy these particular discussions because it inspires me to think through scenarios I might otherwise not. However, out of respect for the prime directive of this forum, it just seems that the discussion ought to be within the art of Aikido. Bringing other arts into the mix could be done ad nauseum and just seems kinda out of left field, and ponderous, to me. What's next? Aikido v. Southern Praying Mantis, Aikido v. Fly Fishing. Where do you draw the line? I mean, if it were a thread about how the principle of "taking the center" or "extension" is beneficial to a practitioner of MMA, then I could understand, but, a comparison for comparison's sake of two completely unrelated endeavors, I find a little tedious. Although, as I stated, I have to admit that on some level I do enjoy reading the positions of knowledgeable folks debating the merits of each style and would most likely be severely disappointed if it ever came to an end. Kinda contradictory, huh?

[Ron Tisdale]

Kinda contradictory, huh?

The best things in life are often when two opposites attract. :D

B,
R

[Will Prusner]

Amen to that, my brother. :)

[Aristeia]

I would take it as a good sign personally. MMA has had some sort of an impact on almost every martial art on the planet. I'm not saying that every art is looking to become MMA - but it has challenged training paradigms and forced many arts to question some of their assumptions.

Even where people have been through that process and decided there are good reasons for conintuing to do what they do in the way they do it, I believe that "check" is beneficial.

That being the case, if on a forum like this MMA never came up I think it would be a cause for concern. It would indicate a community completely unaware of the evolution of what s happening around them. So the fact it is discussed to me is just an indication that this particular community does not have their head in the sand.

[gdandscompserv]

MMA has had some sort of an impact on almost every martial art on the planet.
Ah, the proverbial chicken or the egg, huh?;)

[Lyle Bogin]

MMA is part of the general martial arts scene, but it is also it's own world, quite separate from the aiki-sphere.

It's popularity should have us focusing on our uniqueness as aikidoka if we want our art to survive the current marketplace.

It's OK if they are better fighters...there's a pro league and the demands placed on top level MMAists is way beyond what most aikidoka will ever encounter.

So let's enjoy the blood and not worry too much.

[Aristeia]

It's popularity should have us focusing on our uniqueness as aikidoka if we want our art to survive the current marketplace.
exactly. This is the type of discussion it should be generating - because it *is* a marketplace and people are going to start coming into it much more educated on the trends - I"m sure many people are seeing that already...

[Roman Kremianski]

There are some of us that may have given up on the physical side of Aikido, but are still searching for the spiritual/philosophical side. Hope that answers someone's question as to "why MMA guys are still on aikiweb".

Loads of great MMA guys here, like Don. They usually do a pretty good job at shutting people up when Aikido's physical application gets exaggerated.

You are being more than fair LOL..

I am confused. First you tell me about how an "MMA guy" walked in and got whooped

(By which I think you wanted to say, "MMA FAILS LOL")

Then you flat out agree when George comes in and basically says the guy was a random low beginner off the street.

[Roman Kremianski]

accidental double post

[Aikibu]

There are some of us that may have given up on the physical side of Aikido, but are still searching for the spiritual/philosophical side. Hope that answers someone's question as to "why MMA guys are still on aikiweb".

Loads of great MMA guys here, like Don. They usually do a pretty good job at shutting people up when Aikido's physical application gets exaggerated.

I am confused. First you tell me about how an "MMA guy" walked in and got whooped

(By which I think you wanted to say, "MMA FAILS LOL")

Then you flat out agree when George comes in and basically says the guy was a random low beginner off the street.

You just don't get it and why should you? My point had nothing to do with MMA. It had to do with the persons conduct. You've "given up" on Aikido which means you're just wasting your time here... Hiding behind Don pointing the finger will not lead you to a spiritual path.

I respect Don however... I have been there and done that... I know what Aikido is and how it works and the simple fact of the matter is there is nothing "wrong" with it. It has it's strengths and weaknesses and what it comes down to is something you've alluded to in your post and some folks here have tried to point out to you in a very polite manner...

If your Aikido practice is weak That means you're weak...

If it's the Sensei's or Aikido Style that is at "fault" and you feel your Aikido is weak well change Sensei's otherwise if you want to take up a spiritual practice try Tai Chi or some other Internal Art. Aikido is a MARTIAL ART AND>>>> A Spiritual Practice...Some styles of Aikido emphasize one over the over....So the excuse that Aikido does not work comes back to you once again...

MMA may survive just fine without a spiritual side by the way....but without a strong ethical foundation it may limit it's appeal to young men with a hard on for beating on someone. Why do you think Professional Boxing is in decline??? Some will it's because of the rise in popularity of MMA The folks I am friends with ( One is a VP in the largest boxing federation) have other observations. I think the UFC is a top notch organization but it has has allot of growing to do and the jury is still out on how it will help promote the "sport" of MMA....

I have had many guys like you over the years Roman....When they whine about beginner wrist grabbing or the slow pace of learning Shoji Nishio Shihan's Aikido I usually fix that with a little Randori and ask them to share thier best stuff...If they are still unsatisfied then I ask them to leave and find something that works for them....Perhaps they will come back...Most don't...

I also have allot of folks with Dan Ranks in other Martial Arts in our class....To a person they love what Aikido has to offer...

Good Luck...

William Hazen

[Aristeia]

You just don't get it and why should you? My point had nothing to do with MMA. It had to do with the persons conduct. You've "given up" on Aikido which means you're just wasting your time here...

It's possible that you don't get it perhaps? Roman didn't say he'd given up on Aikido, he said he'd given up on a certain aspect of Aikido. Are you suggesting that people can only be interested in Aikido for exactly the same reasons you are?
I know what Aikido is and how it works and the simple fact of the matter is there is nothing "wrong" with it. It has it's strengths and weaknesses and what it comes down to is something you've alluded to in your post and some folks here have tried to point out to you in a very polite manner...

Agreed. There's nothing "wrong' with it. It is what it is. Often the debate is over what it is and what it isn't good for rather than whether it's "broken". But often that point is lost on some. I suspect Roman understands this point very well but that you and he have a different idea as to what it's strengths and weaknesses are..



If your Aikido practice is weak That means you're weak...
Do you know something about Romans Aikido practice that we don't?

if you want to take up a spiritual practice try Tai Chi or some other Internal Art. so Aikido's not an internal art? It's not a valid spiritual practice?


MMA may survive just fine without a spiritual side by the way....but without a strong ethical foundation it may limit it's appeal to young men with a hard on for beating on someone.

Spoken like someone that's never been in an MMA gym for any length of time. Some may argue that there are elements of MMA training that build character very effectively. Maybe even more so than speaking in a foreign language while bowing because sensei says so (not that there's anything wrong with that, I just don't think it necessarily builds character)

Why do you think Professional Boxing is in decline??? Some will it's because of the rise in popularity of MMA The folks I am friends with ( One is a VP in the largest boxing federation) have other observations. enlighten us

I think the UFC is a top notch organization but it has has allot of growing to do and the jury is still out on how it will help promote the "sport" of MMA....
Surely you didn't mean to be as insulting as you were by putting sport in scare quotes. Surely?

[crbateman]

All I can say is Nature is the ultimate Sensei.... and one who always offers a fully committed and intense attack. Stay safe.

[DonMagee]

I respect Don however... I have been there and done that... I know what Aikido is and how it works and the simple fact of the matter is there is nothing "wrong" with it.


I agree, depending on what you are expecting to get out of your training, there is nothing wrong with anything. What I talk about (and I know you were not addressing me) is honesty in training and efficient ways to develop effective training methods. I keep the spirituality out of it. How a person is spiritual is none of my business. Most of my posts are just me exploring how I feel on a subject and understanding how others react to that. This allows me to address my own training and grow in a technical and maybe even spiritual sense.


MMA may survive just fine without a spiritual side by the way....but without a strong ethical foundation it may limit it's appeal to young men with a hard on for beating on someone. Why do you think Professional Boxing is in decline??? Some will it's because of the rise in popularity of MMA The folks I am friends with ( One is a VP in the largest boxing federation) have other observations. I think the UFC is a top notch organization but it has has allot of growing to do and the jury is still out on how it will help promote the "sport" of MMA....


I think any sport like boxing, wrestling, mma, rugby, football (american), etc will always attract kids who initially just want to hurt people. However, the method of practice quickly isolates and breaks down kids like this. It is impossible to be a tough guy in MMA. Unless you are the best, someone will knock you on your butt. Your coaches will push you until you are beaten. You have to learn to lose. Kids who want to hurt people have egos that can't handle losing, they either change, or quit. Boxing is declining not because of MMA or aggression.

It is a business model. First, nobody teaches boxing. Try finding a place to learn to box in northwest indiana, it's very hard. Second try finding a fight, again very hard. The reason? Profit. It is not profitable to run a boxing match, this is the promotions problem. They ruined the sport with fragmented promotions and tons of weight classes and belts. Rarely are champs undisputed and it is very hard to follow the sport. Contrast that to MMA. You have 1 or 2 promotions that are in the public eye, high profile fighters, and easy access. This leads to popularity, which makes it easier for local promoters to run shows, so kids can find fights easier, which makes it profitable to run a gym, so the kids can get trained. All business.

I still can see no reason why MMA would be at odds with any martial art. I see no reason for sparing to be at odds with any martial art. I have still to this date not been given a compelling argument as to why sparing is bad.

And that is the essence of what we are talking about, training methods. MMA is nothing more then a collection of training methods, aikido is the same, no more no less. Most people's problem with different training methods is either the hype of that method, or the fact that their arts founder, their instructor, or some other instructor looks down on that method. Sometimes what they are lacking is a understanding of why this is the case, and if the issues brought up are really real. They also sometimes miss the picture that their founders normally did not just spring fourth with martial knowledge, but rather learned a art then changed the training method! Worse then that, some arts practitioners fail to even realize that the MMA training method was their training method, it has just be corrupted over time for the sake of making money or to hide an instructors lack of skill.

Just is a prime example. If you read tomiki or kano's writings, you see he was working to have a form of randori and competition with strikes as well as throws and ground work. He said that it was impossible at his time to do all that together safely, and that it would be up to future generations to find a way. Tomiki found his randori/competition as the second component to kano's up close grappling randori. Now with modern safety equipment, we have the ability to make kano's true randori a real possibility, but we do not see judo guys trying to implement this kind of practice. Why? Because it's not judo, and it exposes a lack of skill that would need to be filled (striking).

So I guess what I'm saying is that all martial arts are not perfect. And I hope that everyone realizes this and trys to improve their art. Allowing an art to stagnate will only lead to its devolution and will become a watered down dance form. I see this most in my judo practice vs my bjj practice. Bjj guys are always trying to find out how to improve their game, using new ideas from other grappling arts, practicing new strategies that are not common, playing with new types of movements and made up techniques. Judo guys are always saying "That's not judo". And thats the best part about MMA. There is nothing you can train that is not MMA as long as you have the mindset.

[Budd]

Ugh. I see too many people talking at each other, but not enough listening and talking to each other.

Ron - I'm not really an MMA guy ;) I just like to borrow some of the sport's training methodologies (which were borrowed or evolved from other arts' training methodologies) and work out with people that do . . . oh wait, I just remembered the first rule about fight club ;)

Giancarlo - I think what folks are saying is that they don't see where you get the authority to make judgement calls about laying hands on anybody. Some folks get away with it because a number of people have met them behind the scenes (even if they don't talk about it) and can verify their chops. The problem is the kind of claims you're making 1) aren't verifiable 2) don't really give weight to your arguments 3) also don't really cast you in a favorable light . . . so maybe people are puzzled why you're making them?

Roman - I understand where you're coming from, in terms of moving on to other training methodologies. But the way you come across, especially if you recall your stances from before you were training MMA, is that you've traded one belief system for another. I think what "some" of us are trying to caution you against is so readily trading one form of zealotry for another - it's a great big world out there. Keep training, keep asking questions, but don't make the same mistake that lots of us make, or have made, and presume that you're coming from a position of authority because of what you've trained and who you train with . . . even if people try to give it to you. The problem with having authority is that sooner or later people expect you to show that you've earned it ;).

Others that are now all disparaging about MMA and talking about MMA on an aikido board - one of my big beefs with mainstream aikido is this perceived superiority from moral and, by some, martial fortitude. It becomes this big pose of "O-Sensei said" or "My teacher said" whereby the speaker is passing the buck of responsibility for their own progress to someone else.

I think loving protection is great. I think martial effectiveness is great. I don't think you can honestly have the former, in a martial context, without the latter. The problem then becomes avoiding the pitfalls of honest testing vs. insularity vs. kidding ourselves. Aspects of MMA can provide an excellent venue to train/test some of those skills. Plus, a lot of us think it's fun. :)

Okay, I'm off for an all day meeting with no Interweb. Will catch up later.

[Budd]

Don - you snuck that in while I was on my soap-box. Can't argue with your thoughts even if they aren't the same as mine :)

[SeiserL]

I have a small clip where some tall guy with blonde (grey) ponytail plays with Mr. MMA.
IMHO, if those are the best deadly jabs the old guy has, then he really sucks. LOL

[Mark Jakabcsin]

Giancarlo DiPierro: No matter what theories you will come up with, everything will always go back to one thing: MMA.

It may come back to MMA if all you are interested in is a good athletic competition, but step outside the rules of the contest and the current tactics of MMA are not as attractive. This is not a knock on MMA or it's participants as MMA is a very demanding and tough activity.

Do you understand that the RULES of the athletic contest dictate the strategies and tactics used by the contestants? Change the rules and the strategies and tactics will instantly change. Again this is not a knock on MMA it is merely an acknowledgement of the truth.

In case you are having trouble understanding my meaning let me give an example or two. If we tweak the rules just a little can you see how the contestants would need to change their tactics? Let us say that once a round the ref is allowed to haul off and strike or stop one of the contestants. Just flat out cold cock one of them. Would being in the mount be a desirable position? How about in a three round fight each fighter was allowed one round to hide a small knife on his own body for use during that one round. Would fighters be using the same tactics or would they need to adapt what they do? Or perhaps each fighter was allowed one round with a friend jumping into the ring to help him out for say 30 seconds. Does grappling on the ground look as attractive now?

Keep in mind I greatly enjoy ground grappling but I have no illusions of the dangers of using it outside of an athletic contest. For training purposes ground grappling builds a strong body, solid understanding of body mechanics, body positioning, breathing, flow, etc. Great stuff and well worth the sweaty training.

Rules dictate tactics. This is no different in a violent encounter outside the ring. The problem is a criminal by definition does not accept the same set of rules as a law abiding citizen. Frankly the chap that is least inhibited or constrained by rules has a huge advantage and likelihood of success.

Just some food for thought.

Take care,

Mark J.

[George S. Ledyard]

IMHO, if those are the best deadly jabs the old guy has, then he really sucks. LOL
First the old guy with the ponytail, then the old fat guy. the boy had a tough day there.

[Marc Abrams]

George:

You ruined him for the rest of us! After you allowed him to experience the sensation of trying to lift a man twice his weight, he was reduced to whining about his bad back!:rolleyes:

Then again, the rest of his crew of "elite marital artists" did a great job representing him during his class!:D

Marc Abrams

[Dewey]

Ugh. I see too many people talking at each other, but not enough listening and talking to each other.....


Thanks, Budd, for the excellent post. That's what I was trying to say in my earlier postings in this thread. Unfortunately, sarcasm doesn't really translate too well on internet discussion boards.

It's easy to argue with internet people. With few exceptions, they're not "real" people: just a username and an avatar on the screen. Who really knows if anything they say is true or if they're just talking out of their ass. Most of us have not met one another in real life and probably never will, so there's that margain of safety. Sure, it's easy to do...we all have done it at one time or another. However, I genuinely wonder if we would have the same sorts of discussions and debates if they were in person?

Probably not.

[MM]

It's easy to argue with internet people. With few exceptions, they're not "real" people: just a username and an avatar on the screen. Who really knows if anything they say is true or if they're just talking out of their ass. Most of us have not met one another in real life and probably never will, so there's that margain of safety. Sure, it's easy to do...we all have done it at one time or another. However, I genuinely wonder if we would have the same sorts of discussions and debates if they were in person?

Probably not.

Hello Brian,
You brought up a good point, but I think that part of it is wrong. I agree that it's too easy to "talk" on the Internet. People are usernames and avatars. Someone new to the forums won't know who to believe and who not to.

However, I think the forums have really changed the situation for meeting people. The chances of meeting someone now is, IMO, more likely than before the forums. And the reason is because the forums make things more curious, or interesting. I don't know of any other format (yet) that creates an air of curiosity when "talking" to a multitude of people. I've read Ledyard sensei's posts and given the chance, I will make one of his seminars one of these days. If not for the forums, I probably wouldn't have heard of half the people I have met. :)

I think the Aiki Expos were great and I wish I could have made one, but I also think that maybe they were too big. The AikiWeb Seminar was very good, though.

Give the tech some time and instead of word driven forums, we'll have video driven forums. That'll be something to see (pun intended). It'll be interesting to see what changes in the interaction arena.

Mark

[Keith R Lee]

A little late to the conversation but as to the question of why there are people who train in MMA on an AIkido board...maybe because they train or have trained in Aikido as well?

I'm fairly certain everyone that Ron listed, including myself, fall into that category. When conversations about MMA, "alive" training, active resistance, etc. come up, wouldn't it be better to have people versed in the terminology and training methods of both Aikido and those other things instead of just Aikido? As opposed to intellectual mind games and hypotheticals that bear no relation to how things actual play out in practice?

It would be one thing if Don, Michael, Kevin, myself, etc. came on here and attacked Aikido. As far as I can recall, none of us have done this. Instead, we've merely shared our personal experience of moving into an active resistance/"alive" training/MMA from an Aikido background, and how these new training methodologies have challenged the preconceived notions obtained from our Aikido practice. Hell, who wouldn't want to hear about these experiences, if they were serious, dedicated Aikidoka, trying to better their training and themselves? The only reason (I can conceive) a person wouldn't want to hear of these experiences is because it would lead them to challenge their own preconceived notions and assumptions about Aikido and physical conflict, and they are resistant to that challenge and, perhaps, change. It is much easier to stick with what one knows then be forced to change, adapt, and grow.

However, isn't that the whole point of Aikido? To blend, grow, adapt? To "fit in" with whatever comes your way? Ki musubi?

It's the situation I find myself in with training Aikido and MMA. "Alive" training has forced me to blend, grow, and adapt my Aikido, and my Aikido has effected how I look at MMA. And not in any base, technical, wrist locks v. double legs fashion, but in a more holistic, principle based manner. I find both styles of training valuable, and feel compelled to share that experience with others, as I would assume Don, Michael, Kevin, and the rest do as well. Mostly because, all of us have had very similar experiences when transitioning to an "alive"-based training methodology, one that really challenged our pre-conceived notions of a physical conflict situation. Along those lines, are we not ones to judge our previous training and training partners (Aikido) v. the ones we train with now (MMA)?

An analogy that I think is appropriate is the teenage-virgin idea of sex v. the adult personal experience of sex. The teenage-version will have all types of knowledge of what sex is about, will heard lots of stories, etc. and think they will know what sex is about. Compare that to the adult, who has had sex with multiple partners, and obviously has real, empirical knowledge of sex. If both of these people were to say...write a book, or teach a class about sex, who would you want to learn from?

Not that the teenager wouldn't have anything to offer, merely that it is only part of the picture, which is I think the viewpoint of many who have trained in Aikido and "alive" based training.

Lastly, it often seems to me that there is a resistance to anything coming from "the outside" into Aikido. Almost as if anything that needs to be learned or taught about Aikido as to emerge from Aikido. Is it that aspects of "alive" training don't have Japanese descriptions and the people don't wear skirts? Are the kamiza and dogi really what makes Aikido, Aikido or could people still do it wearing shorts and training outside in the dirt? In my personal experience, many people who train in Aikido romanticize and exaggerate the importance of all the trappings and reishiki of Aikido, when those things seem to be of little importance to me. Good company and hard training are all that is really needed to make Aikdio, Aikido. Funny thing is, once you get past the Tapout clothes and preponderance of goatees and tattoos, those are the same things you need for MMA.

[Will Prusner]

I believe that the internet forum environment probably affords the opportunity for more boastful and disrespectful behavior than would be exhibited in person, by individuals inclined to that type of behavior in the first place. But for the sake of maintaining a comfortable environment with open expression, I believe it is a necessity to be tolerant. The level of anonymity which is present on such a forum, sometimes makes me wonder if a guy who is making outrageous, inflammatory claims is nothing more than an individual with a physical, emotional or mental disability expressing a desire to feel powerful, a feeling that has maybe been denied to him/her for their entire life. And then I have to question the appropriateness of my emotional response to such an individual. Anyhoo...

A thought, and then a question crossed my mind and I just wanted to put it out there:

I know that Morihei Ueshiba from his youth on was interested in different martial styles, and was proficient in several. I also believe I heard once that he was known to practice Tai Chi Chuan. My thought/question is, If given the opportunity at a time in his life when he would have been physically able, would he have been interested in training and/or competing in modern MMA, as we know it?

[Aikibu]

It's possible that you don't get it perhaps? Roman didn't say he'd given up on Aikido, he said he'd given up on a certain aspect of Aikido. Are you suggesting that people can only be interested in Aikido for exactly the same reasons you are?

It's possible I don't get it. However I can certainly tell by the tone your question you don't either Go back and read my reponse in it's proper context. Putting words in my mouth does not work either. I am not suggesting anything other than perhaps responding to my post when your not centered does not come across very well.

Agreed. There's nothing "wrong' with it. It is what it is. Often the debate is over what it is and what it isn't good for rather than whether it's "broken". But often that point is lost on some. I suspect Roman understands this point very well but that you and he have a different idea as to what it's strengths and weaknesses are..

Better...

Do you know something about Romans Aikido practice that we don't?
so Aikido's not an internal art? It's not a valid spiritual practice?

??? Again a careful reading of the posts in thier proper context will help you a great deal

Spoken like someone that's never been in an MMA gym for any length of time. Some may argue that there are elements of MMA training that build character very effectively. Maybe even more so than speaking in a foreign language while bowing because sensei says so (not that there's anything wrong with that, I just don't think it necessarily builds character)
enlighten us
Surely you didn't mean to be as insulting as you were by putting sport in scare quotes. Surely?

So says you. Sounds like you have some personal issues with Foreign Sensei's but hey that would be making an assumption on my part and taking your post out of context. At least one of us needs to stay centered in this exchange.LOL I don't need to repeat myself to you with regard to my experiance with MMA. The information is all there.

Humbly Bowing Down to You,

William Hazen

P.S. If you wish to continue this please PM me...

[Aikibu]

A little late to the conversation but as to the question of why there are people who train in MMA on an AIkido board...maybe because they train or have trained in Aikido as well?

I'm fairly certain everyone that Ron listed, including myself, fall into that category. When conversations about MMA, "alive" training, active resistance, etc. come up, wouldn't it be better to have people versed in the terminology and training methods of both Aikido and those other things instead of just Aikido? As opposed to intellectual mind games and hypotheticals that bear no relation to how things actual play out in practice?

It would be one thing if Don, Michael, Kevin, myself, etc. came on here and attacked Aikido. As far as I can recall, none of us have done this. Instead, we've merely shared our personal experience of moving into an active resistance/"alive" training/MMA from an Aikido background, and how these new training methodologies have challenged the preconceived notions obtained from our Aikido practice. Hell, who wouldn't want to hear about these experiences, if they were serious, dedicated Aikidoka, trying to better their training and themselves? The only reason (I can conceive) a person wouldn't want to hear of these experiences is because it would lead them to challenge their own preconceived notions and assumptions about Aikido and physical conflict, and they are resistant to that challenge and, perhaps, change. It is much easier to stick with what one knows then be forced to change, adapt, and grow.

However, isn't that the whole point of Aikido? To blend, grow, adapt? To "fit in" with whatever comes your way? Ki musubi?

It's the situation I find myself in with training Aikido and MMA. "Alive" training has forced me to blend, grow, and adapt my Aikido, and my Aikido has effected how I look at MMA. And not in any base, technical, wrist locks v. double legs fashion, but in a more holistic, principle based manner. I find both styles of training valuable, and feel compelled to share that experience with others, as I would assume Don, Michael, Kevin, and the rest do as well. Mostly because, all of us have had very similar experiences when transitioning to an "alive"-based training methodology, one that really challenged our pre-conceived notions of a physical conflict situation. Along those lines, are we not ones to judge our previous training and training partners (Aikido) v. the ones we train with now (MMA)?

An analogy that I think is appropriate is the teenage-virgin idea of sex v. the adult personal experience of sex. The teenage-version will have all types of knowledge of what sex is about, will heard lots of stories, etc. and think they will know what sex is about. Compare that to the adult, who has had sex with multiple partners, and obviously has real, empirical knowledge of sex. If both of these people were to say...write a book, or teach a class about sex, who would you want to learn from?

Not that the teenager wouldn't have anything to offer, merely that it is only part of the picture, which is I think the viewpoint of many who have trained in Aikido and "alive" based training.

Lastly, it often seems to me that there is a resistance to anything coming from "the outside" into Aikido. Almost as if anything that needs to be learned or taught about Aikido as to emerge from Aikido. Is it that aspects of "alive" training don't have Japanese descriptions and the people don't wear skirts? Are the kamiza and dogi really what makes Aikido, Aikido or could people still do it wearing shorts and training outside in the dirt? In my personal experience, many people who train in Aikido romanticize and exaggerate the importance of all the trappings and reishiki of Aikido, when those things seem to be of little importance to me. Good company and hard training are all that is really needed to make Aikdio, Aikido. Funny thing is, once you get past the Tapout clothes and preponderance of goatees and tattoos, those are the same things you need for MMA.

Outstanding post...and I agree 100% with a few exceptions

One: The assumptions about Aikido not adapting to outside influances unless they come from inside Aikido is simply not true in all cases. Our Aikido goes to great lenghts to learn from other Arts how to make Aikido better.

Two: I have extensive experiance with "alive" based training and for the most part they mirror yours However the Differance with us is that it comes at a much later stage in the training process. Some may consider this a flaw and there seem to be allot of Aikido Dojos who never progress to alive based training so it's a valid criticism. Our Aikido has two kinds of students...One is experianced in other Arts the other is not. If I see a problem with Dojos it's that they have to train to the lowest common denominator as a baseline. This can be frustrating for someone who is used to more advanced levels of training. I think this is a major flaw with Aikido. We address it in our style as do some others like Tomiki, Shodokan, and Iwama...Aikido for the most part needs to adapt it's syllubus to make it more alive without compromising it's responsibility to it's core set of technical principles, and the complete newbie.

Hopefully your excellent post will lead to a great exchange of ideas in this regard.

William Hazen

[Erick Mead]

...intellectual mind games and hypotheticals that bear no relation to how things actual play out in practice?Idle games are idle games, whether physical or intellectual ...
... these new training methodologies have challenged the preconceived notions obtained from our Aikido practice. Hell, who wouldn't want to hear about these experiences, if they were serious, dedicated Aikidoka, trying to better their training and themselves? ,,, Along those lines, are we not ones to judge our previous training and training partners (Aikido) v. the ones we train with now (MMA)? Your post seems well-intended and heartfelt -- but it misses the mark. You are NOT best positioned to judge -- precisely because you seem NOT to have found that Aikido offers what you want. Nor does the fact that you did not find it mean that others have not, nor that what Aikido was lacking (from your perspective) is necessarily to be found in MMA. As to the latter I would not presume to judge. Since you have not found what you sought in Aikido, the plain fact may be that you want something that is not meant to be sought through Aikido. Aikido is marvelously diverse, but is not and should not try to be all things to all people.

An analogy that I think is appropriate is the teenage-virgin idea of sex v. the adult personal experience of sex. ... Compare that to the adult, who has had sex with multiple partners, and obviously has real, empirical knowledge of sex. ... who would you want to learn from? So, one should learn every conceivable form of sex for one's own satisfaction from a paid professional who has lots of expereince ? :o

The alternative image is not the teenage virgin but a mutually caring exploration discovering its role in a proper marriage, for the benefit of another, not merely for one's own interest. Observed too often in the breach, perhaps, but ideals are like that. Maybe MMA can provide that, but from what I have seen of it, that seems the exception to its intended purpose. The purpose of Aikido is closer in kind to that of marriage than of escapades of fighting, or other words beginning with "f"... and ending with "-ing"

I think your analogy (perhaps not intended that way) hits on a similar diversion of interest in WHAT Aikido seeks compared with other arts, and particularly the explicit combat and sports arts. If MMA in your analogy is about ever more spectacular and diverse achievements (in hot sex per your anology -a sad image, in my opinion) -- Aikido is analogous to building more solid marriages (musubi - in both senses, connection and creativity), and thereby making the participants stronger individuals, in the process of making them also more connected to one another, and stronger still BECAUSE of their ability to connect more creatively.

Marriage definitely involves sex as a defining characteristic and necessary means, but it is a means, not an end, and it is about far, far more than that. Martial spectacle is no more redeeming than the more titillating kind. Aikido necessarily involves violence and requires martially honest encounters, but not in the sense of mere sport, at best -- or combat porn, at worst.

[Will Prusner]

Idle games are idle games, whether physical or intellectual ...
Your post seems well-intended and heartfelt -- but it misses the mark. You are NOT best positioned to judge -- precisely because you seem NOT to have found that Aikido offers what you want. Nor does the fact that you did not find it mean that others have not, nor that what Aikido was lacking (from your perspective) is necessarily to be found in MMA. As to the latter I would not presume to judge. Since you have not found what you sought in Aikido, the plain fact may be that you want something that is not meant to be sought through Aikido. Aikido is marvelously diverse, but is not and should not try to be all things to all people.

So, one should learn every conceivable form of sex for one's own satisfaction from a paid professional who has lots of expereince ? :o

The alternative image is not the teenage virgin but a mutually caring exploration discovering its role in a proper marriage, for the benefit of another, not merely for one's own interest. Observed too often in the breach, perhaps, but ideals are like that. Maybe MMA can provide that, but from what I have seen of it, that seems the exception to its intended purpose. The purpose of Aikido is closer in kind to that of marriage than of escapades of fighting, or other words beginning with "f"... and ending with "-ing"

I think your analogy (perhaps not intended that way) hits on a similar diversion of interest in WHAT Aikido seeks compared with other arts, and particularly the explicit combat and sports arts. If MMA in your analogy is about ever more spectacular and diverse achievements (in hot sex per your anology -a sad image, in my opinion) -- Aikido is analogous to building more solid marriages (musubi - in both senses, connection and creativity), and thereby making the participants stronger individuals, in the process of making them also more connected to one another, and stronger still BECAUSE of their ability to connect more creatively.

Marriage definitely involves sex as a defining characteristic and necessary means, but it is a means, not an end, and it is about far, far more than that. Martial spectacle is no more redeeming than the more titillating kind. Aikido necessarily involves violence and requires martially honest encounters, but not in the sense of mere sport, at best -- or combat porn, at worst.

Testify!!!

Well said. I agree completely.

[Aristeia]

hmm...Budd makes the virgin analogy to point out that it's not useful to get an opinion from someone on a topic that they have no direct experience of. And now we stretch that metaphor beyond belief to point out the monogomous sanctity of Aikido in comparison to the slapper ho of MMA.

No, no smug superiority in the Aikido community at all.....

[Ron Tisdale]

Hey Michael...I wasn't even going to go there...I don't think it's worth it...

B,
R

[DonMagee]

I would do anything for love, but I just wont do that.

[Erick Mead]

hmm...Budd makes the virgin analogy to point out that it's not useful to get an opinion from someone on a topic that they have no direct experience of. And now we stretch that metaphor beyond belief to point out the monogomous sanctity of Aikido in comparison to the slapper ho of MMA. Well, since you say so ... :D

I did not suggest the analogy, I just followed it to its conclusion. Last I looked Aikido had moral and personal development as a significant part of its stated purpose; MMA -- not so much -- if there is any overarching moral principle involved in the movement (apart from the minimal one of not getting beaten) let's just say it is not a notable part of the marketing plan so far.

I made no judgment on the point. Almost anything that is real is good in its proper context. Many things are good, not all things are good in the same way and some good things may be bad out of a proper context. Context matters.

The moral judgment you complain about was contained in the analogy first presented. I simply applied that fully to the context to suggest that the implied criticism cuts more deeply in reverse.

Aikido training does not per se result in vain and virginal ignorance about violence remedied only by teaching from someone who analogously plumbs the figurative depths of orgiastic debauchery to understand sexuality. Bad MMA training might go there. Good MMA would not.

Bad aiki bunny Aikido training fails the other way, and might require something more like that kind of bitter medicine as a purgative. The point is merely that traditionally sober and pedestrian aikido training is not so uninformed as to the nature and consequences of violence and its uses through their practice as the implied condescension by virtue of MMA's "worldly ways" contained in the original analogy.

That is all. A little respect all around is fine thing.

[Steven]

Okay – so considering my background and first teacher I realize I’m being a bit of a devil’s advocate here, but I can’t resist the urge to ask. “What exactly does it mean when someone says they train MMA?”

The name a lone, Mixed Martial Arts, suggests someone who practices more than one martial art, of their choice, and combine the two. There’s really nothing new about this. One of Yoshinkan Aikido’s earliest American practitioners, for example, was combing his karate skills and aikido skills, as learned from Gozo Shioda Sensei, in the mid to late 1950’s and created his own hybrid system. Wouldn’t that be considered MMA by definition?

I think the only real difference these days is that MMA has become a sport competition where folks who study multiple disciplines met in a ring and beat the snot out of each other making it a sport, more so than a martial art.

In my view, MMA is not a martial art. Rather is represents a person who studies multiple arts and competes in competitions against others doing the same thing. So when someone says to me “I practice MMA” I typically ask, “which arts”. Kind like someone saying “I practice aikijujutsu”. That really doesn’t tell you much of anything. Like saying, “I drive an automobile”.

That’s my story and I’m sticking to it. :p

[CNYMike]

Okay -- so considering my background and first teacher I realize I'm being a bit of a devil's advocate here, but I can't resist the urge to ask. "What exactly does it mean when someone says they train MMA?"

Well, at one time, in the early days in the UFC, it referred to events hosted by the Gracie family pitting differnt arts against each other, but since then it has been standardized into two areas: Standup and ground. Standup conisists of Thai Boxing and mayvbe some Western boxing, so kicking, punching, knees and elbows. Ground means submission grappling based mainly on Brazillian Jujitsu and related systems. There are schools that teach that material and prepare fighters for professional events like the UFC; one such school is in my area (http://www.cnymma.com/). One of their guys was in the UFC within the last few months. However, last year, they rented the place out for a seminar with Sifu Francis Fong, so not every MMAer is a loudmouth who wants nothing to do with other systems. (Of course, CNYMMA is run by Sifu Kevin Seaman's son, and Sifu Kevin was trained by Sifu Francis Fong and Sifu Dan Inosanto. No surprises there!)

So that is what "MMA" means; quibbling over semantics won't help matters. I don't have term for people who train in multiple arts except "martial artists." And I think the martial arts marketplace has enough room for MMA and "traditional" Aikido -- different strokes for differnt folks.

[xuzen]

Okay -- so considering my background and first teacher I realize I'm being a bit of a devil's advocate here, but I can't resist the urge to ask. "What exactly does it mean when someone says they train MMA?"

It ain't no MMA if ya'll ain't wearing no spandex and Tap-Out (TM) shirt (chuckles)

Boon.

[Aristeia]

What Boon said.
And also what Michael said - different strokes for different folks for sure.
As to what MMA is - it is not just cross training in different arts. Crosstraining in tai chi and Aikido does not make you an MMA er. It has meaning beyond the literal meaning of the words. compare for example with Kung fu which I understand means something like hard work? Does that mean a hard day in the garden makes me a kung fu practioner? Or karate, which means (today) empty hand. Does that mean if I do anything without tools I'm practicing karate?

No because it has meaning outside of the literal translation. So with MMA. It is an accepted term which refers to a specific sport and grouping of rulesets. It can also be used to refer to the training that may lead to participation in that sport, training in the methodologies that have shown to be effective. Those methodologies are continuing to evolve but at heart are a combination of techniques that can be seen in muay thai, boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Judo and maybe a bit of Sambo.

Eric, I'm not sure you realise how metaphor works, it's a limited comparison. Because someone compares two things in one area for purposes of illustration does not mean you can compare them in all areas.
Aikido had moral and personal development as a significant part of its stated purpose; MMA -- not so much -- if there is any overarching moral principle involved in the movement (apart from the minimal one of not getting beaten) let's just say it is not a notable part of the marketing plan so far.

You see this kind of proves Budd's point in my mind. The implication here is that Aikido is good for personal and moral development and MMA is only about wanton violence. It is only someone that has no direct experience of it (back to the virgin analogy) that would make this claim. Those that *do* have experience know that there's no way you train MMA without significant advances in character and personal development. But it doesn't come through waxing philosophical at the end of the class, it comes as a direct result of the training itself. Which is a suspect how it used to be with TMAs as well.

I've seen great character development take place in Aikido, in BJJ and in MMA. One doesn't have a monopoloy on it just because it's on the brochure...

[Budd]

I've seen great character development take place in Aikido, in BJJ and in MMA. One doesn't have a monopoloy on it just because it's on the brochure...

Zing! Nicely put, Mr. Fooks :)

[Will Prusner]

If it's about character development, then I thinkit depends mostly on the character and there desire to develop. Not so much on the vehicle used to develop. If one wanted to develop there character, or sense of spirituality for that matter, it would be just as easy to progress in those areas doing Aikido, Gardening, MMA, BJJ, Fly Fishing, Chopping heads on a battlefield, etc. What is the practitioner's intention for their practice?

I have known individuals with wonderful characters who have deep wells of spirituality and have never felt the desire or inclination to step into a dojo or other martial arts training hall. Sometimes I have to stop and question my own motives for practice, make sure they are pure in nature and not tainted by fear before I continue. For me, it would be harder to check those motives if the style I studied was more focused on damaging or killing my opponent.

Anybody see Karate Kid? Who would you rather hang out with, Mr. Miyagi and Daniel-san (character) or the Cobra-kai (in need of character)?

[Aikibu]

Charactor Development is a cornerstone in a strong ethical and moral foundation....

Aikido's ethical foundation lies in the traditional Martial Disciplines and some would suggest certain Japanese religeous beliefs

MMA's origins may be the same in a sense but it is a professional sport and as such it's overall goals are a bit different

Apples and oranges...though both may develop good charactor One is about harmony the other winning...

That in my opinion is a distinct differance and makes comparing one as better than the other silly...

William Hazen

[Aristeia]

certainly they have different approaches. But there's some interesting things coming up in this discussion I'd like to give my view on.

MMA does have a professional sport aspect to it for sure. But it's not like the only guys training it are the guys you see on the UFC. There are plenty of "hobbyists" involved who may never have an actual MMA match per se. In 5 years time those hobbyists will be the majority.

One is about harmony the other winning...

I find this interesting. Because it occurs to me that Aikido, the way it is trained in the vast majority of dojo, operates a training fiction that ensures that nage always wins. Whereas in MMA/BJJ you "suffer" loss after loss after loss to progress. In fact you have to let go of the idea of "must win" very early in your training if you are going to make it past the first six months. So in many ways those arts taught me much much more about the ability to shelve competitive spirit, about how to focus on other things than my own victor and about taking my ego out of the equation than I ever learned in Aikido. Aikido possibly taught me more about the idea of "blending" although it's hard to say because those lessons are also very clearly in BJJ so I'm not sure I wouldn't have picked them up from there if I hadn't already trained Aikido.

Sometimes I have to stop and question my own motives for practice, make sure they are pure in nature and not tainted by fear before I continue. I'm interested by this William. Are you saying that motives that involve fear are not good ones?

[Aikibu]

certainly they have different approaches. But there's some interesting things coming up in this discussion I'd like to give my view on.

MMA does have a professional sport aspect to it for sure. But it's not like the only guys training it are the guys you see on the UFC. There are plenty of "hobbyists" involved who may never have an actual MMA match per se. In 5 years time those hobbyists will be the majority.

I find this interesting. Because it occurs to me that Aikido, the way it is trained in the vast majority of dojo, operates a training fiction that ensures that nage always wins. Whereas in MMA/BJJ you "suffer" loss after loss after loss to progress. In fact you have to let go of the idea of "must win" very early in your training if you are going to make it past the first six months. So in many ways those arts taught me much much more about the ability to shelve competitive spirit, about how to focus on other things than my own victor and about taking my ego out of the equation than I ever learned in Aikido. Aikido possibly taught me more about the idea of "blending" although it's hard to say because those lessons are also very clearly in BJJ so I'm not sure I wouldn't have picked them up from there if I hadn't already trained Aikido.

So you like apples as opposed to oranges fair enough...How can you extrapolate this to mean that oranges are somehow lacking or infer that some Aikidoka feel MMA is lacking because it's goals are different....

Harmony is about blending and attempting to rid yourself of the duality of "victory or defeat" A Nage is only one part of this equation... he/she needs to the help of an Uke to achieve this Harmony. Any Uke that needs to "win" or any Nage that needs to "win" cannot effectively practice Aikido. Both must play thier half in order to achieve the whole which is harmony. You must (as we say in another spiritual practice "Surrender to win")

I think Shoji Nishio put it best about Aikido and it's one of the reasons I choose to learn and practice it.

"People who practice Aikido, should be recognized as the best artists in the world. It's easy to create something good, with good materials, however, we perform a Martial Art that is designed to destroy and kill people, which is something people dislike.
With these poor marterials, we cultivate a society of friendship and build peaceful minds that people desire.

Every Aikido technique has that mind/heart."

In no way shape or form does MMA have a similiar mindset...It does share some of the same training values but it's about the simple duality of victory or defeat. Does that mean that Aikido or MMA is better???

Nope...To think that way is to fall into yet another of the same mind traps I am trying to free myself from through hard practice thus...

better/worse = victory/defeat

this homey don't want to play the fool no more...:)

Another great analogy I along time ago from an old timer was. "Dummy (me back then)...Life is a smorgasboard of good food with plenty to eat for everybody But some dudes like pickles, and some like peanut butter. The key is enjoy the foods you like and don't stop folks from eating the foods they like just because you don't like them."

Bowing down now...

William Hazen

[Will Prusner]

Are you saying that motives that involve fear are not good ones?

While I acknowledge that fear is a powerful motivational force, when I have chosen a course of action based on fear, in hindsight I usually wish I had chosen otherwise.

In my experience, fear usually stems from a belief that you will lose something that you have, or not get something that you need (or want). This kind of thinking leads to a form of self imposed mental slavery. It is capable of prohibiting one from taking the proper course of action or taking no action whatsoever.

There is a story in the Hagakure about a Lord of a comparably small holding who was killed by an assasin sent by a competitive, neighboring lord. The lord who had sent the assasin was a much more powerful individual who had in his service around 1,000 samurai, compared to a much smaller number retained by the now deceased lord. The majority of the samurai decided that it would be foolish to throw their lives away in an attempt to avenge their dead lord. But one of the samurai ran straight to the compound of the lord who had sent the assasin and engaged his 1,000 samurai in combat. He didn't kill the lord, but he did kill many samurai before he was cut down. Certainly more than the guys who did not go at all. And it is theorized more than he would have had he sat around for a few days and tried to come up with a better strategy. It is said that this is where the saying "stamp quick and pass through iron" originated. Meaning if rather than be blinded by fear or be scared or worry about the final outcome, if one simply takes the correct action without hesitation he will be more effective than if he waits, or does nothing at all.

So... when I practice Aikido, I don't want to be coming from a place of "I'd better get real good at twisting wrists and throwing people, so i don't get my ass kicked! (fear-based motivation). I'd much rather approach my training with an attitude of "The light of the world shines forth from me, I am helping to make myself and the world better by this practice. I am helping to usher in a new age, I am performing a prayer with my body that will help to open the rock door of heaven and begin an age of enlightenment and prosperity led by Amaterasu o mi Kami" (positive action).

:)

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Anybody see Karate Kid? Who would you rather hang out with, Mr. Miyagi and Daniel-san (character) or the Cobra-kai (in need of character)?

None of them probably, but never in the character of a guy who claims to be peaceful and ethical but goes full-contact in a point sparring tournament.

Anyway, if aikido claims to be a tool for character developement, can someone explain me why the amount of politics, ego, abuse, passive-agressiveness and closed mindedness we find in aikido world?

[MM]

So you like apples as opposed to oranges fair enough...How can you extrapolate this to mean that oranges are somehow lacking or infer that some Aikidoka feel MMA is lacking because it's goals are different....

William Hazen

I read this thread and think about posting, but then I read one of your replies, find myself agreeing with it, and drop the thought. I couldn't have said things any better. One of these days, I'll have to get over to your side of the US and visit. :)

Mark

[Erick Mead]

No because it has meaning outside of the literal translation. So with MMA. It is an accepted term which refers to a specific sport and grouping of rulesets. ...
Eric, I'm not sure you realise how metaphor works, it's a limited comparison. Because someone compares two things in one area for purposes of illustration does not mean you can compare them in all areas. Is that not the function of aikido? -- To take the expressed hostile intent just exactly where it was headed but just THAT much further forward/back/off-side where they lose control of the intended meaning of that action? So it is in extending a metaphor. Truth is what it is, not what we intend it to be -- unless, of course, you are actually Stephen Colbert, in disguise.

The implication here is that Aikido is good for personal and moral development and MMA is only about wanton violence. Actually, my point was that if you take the implied accusation of your point and turn it around it becomes the merely reverse accusation, and that while there are legitimate differences in position, neither argument tending to the polar extremities is in fact useful or actually true. In medio veritas.

MMA's intensity (in what the Marine Corps sometimes calls "adversative" training) is without a doubt proper misogi through shugyo. Misogi shugyo is a powerful teacher whatever its source or particular method. The desire for that legitimate "worn out" palpable feeling is, I hazard a guess, a predominant part if the appeal of MMA. But shugyo is both to remove the slack and polish the spirit. I would say, more charitably, that MMA and most competitive arts, lean one way on that spectrum, and aikido leans the other way.

Hazarding an overgeneralization closer to the reality than our dueling methaporical battle -- the misogi shugyo of MMA seems to emphasize toughness of physique, suppleness of response, and sharpening an instinctive will to dominate. There are mental well as physical components, and necessarily rational and irrational components, to the training.

The misogi shugyo of aikido is also physical as well as mental -- but in a different way. There is a focus on making the instinctive will MORE accommodating to the movement (and inherent shape) of attack while ultimately frustrating its intended objective, rather than dominating or resistive to the action of the attack per se, honing awareness in connection and sharpening the criticality of responses to that connected physical movement.

The "worn out" feel of aikido at the end of good training seem more akin (to me anyway) to that of the surfer (whose principles are actually much in common), drained physically yes ( though less so in most cases that a MMA bout or even judo randori) but also drained mentally. The mental component of this shugyo is distinctively different from that of competitive arts. Holding awareness open, and seeking and maintaining connection with intensity, finding and trying to eliminate reactive force-on-force contests.

I have no doubt they overlap in their intedned and practical coverage, but they are different in emphasis and focus.

One doesn't have a monopoly on it just because it's on the brochure...Only the rubes believe a sales pitch ...

[Erick Mead]

Anyway, if aikido claims to be a tool for character developement, can someone explain me why the amount of politics, ego, abuse, passive-agressiveness and closed mindedness we find in aikido world? The tu quoque argument. I suppose it is because they are all flawed people? Like everyone else on the planet?

I don't think a quantitative comparison on those traits is even possible, much less useful, much less true.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

The tu quoque argument. I suppose it is because they are all flawed people? Like everyone else on the planet?

I don't think a quantitative comparison on those traits is even possible, much less useful, much less true.

Then, who can cast the first stone?

[Erick Mead]

better/worse = victory/defeat Mitsugi Saotome Shihan is reputed to have said (paraphrasing):

"You want to win? (pointing to his head). This is your trophy: you keep your head -- you win."

[Will Prusner]

Anyway, if aikido claims to be a tool for character developement, can someone explain me why the amount of politics, ego, abuse, passive-agressiveness and closed mindedness we find in aikido world?

Why do we find it in the not Aikido world (everywhere else)?

The fact that we are drawn to an art which makes such a claim (if that claim interested us in the first place) is an indicator that our characters need to be developed.

Hopefully we are progressing, but we are definitely NOT perfect.

P.S. - Aikido doesn't claim anything, people claim things for it.

[Erick Mead]

Then, who can cast the first stone?The guy with the faster trebuchet squad.

Of course, it wasn't me.

Seriously, too true. I was attempting to point out that a thrown stone very often merely becomes ammunition for the other guy. In Aikido, of course, the point is that even a thrown fist, or sharp elbow, also becomes ammunition for the other guy. Not a martially sound way to fight a battle or structure a reasoned debate. There are more profitable ways to address the issues than implied slights or incitements, and making them more evident just allows them to better avoided in other forms...

[Aikibu]

None of them probably, but never in the character of a guy who claims to be peaceful and ethical but goes full-contact in a point sparring tournament.

Anyway, if aikido claims to be a tool for character developement, can someone explain me why the amount of politics, ego, abuse, passive-agressiveness and closed mindedness we find in aikido world?

Everything/Everyone has it's 10% to make a value judgement of the whole based on a few is nothing more than a sign of inexperiance. At one time I was a Romping Stomping Airborne Ranger Now I am a Middle Aged Mellow Dude...

One does not survive that process without humbly waking up to the reality of the fragility of life...

And...Any Serious Martial Artist does not survive that process with all that immature BS you're whining about intact.

The Martial Arts are a forge for the body, mind ,and spirit. No one who completes the entire process is the worse for it, and it takes a lifetime to learn.

As O'Sensei (and others) have said...

"Iron is full of impurities that weaken it; Through forging, It becomes steel and is transformed into a razor sharp sword. Human beings develop in much the same fashion."

And when forged....

"The penetrating brilliance of swords Wielded by followers of the way Strikes at the evil enemy... Lurking deep within thier own souls and bodies."

Bowing down to you.

William Hazen

[Aristeia]

The guy with the faster trebuchet squad.

Of course, it wasn't me.

Seriously, too true. I was attempting to point out that a thrown stone very often merely becomes ammunition for the other guy. In Aikido, of course, the point is that even a thrown fist, or sharp elbow, also becomes ammunition for the other guy. Not a martially sound way to fight a battle or structure a reasoned debate. There are more profitable ways to address the issues than implied slights or incitements, and making them more evident just allows them to better avoided in other forms...And my point is that your extension of the metaphor has done nothing to address the original point (that those without experience in a matter and generally the best people to comment on it), but rather has just served to try and cast MMA in a pejorative light.

[Aristeia]

So you like apples as opposed to oranges fair enough...How can you extrapolate this to mean that oranges are somehow lacking

Interesting how these conversations always come back to this point. No one has to my knowledge said that Aikido is wrong or lacking. At most we sometimes challenge claims about what it is or is not useful for, which is not a criticism of Aikido in itself. And in fact this thread is much more about defending MMA as it's currently running.

or infer that some Aikidoka feel MMA is lacking because it's goals are different....

oh, I don't know, maybe talk about it having no character development, appealing to baser nature and being compared to a skanky ho?


"People who practice Aikido, should be recognized as the best artists in the world.
or indeed talk like that...

In no way shape or form does MMA have a similiar mindset...It does share some of the same training values but it's about the simple duality of victory or defeat. Does that mean that Aikido or MMA is better???

I'm not sure I'd agree with that. People start MMA for all sorts of reasons. Many to challenge themselves and their own limitations. IOW it's a tool for self improvement.

Another great analogy I along time ago from an old timer was. "Dummy (me back then)...Life is a smorgasboard of good food with plenty to eat for everybody But some dudes like pickles, and some like peanut butter. The key is enjoy the foods you like and don't stop folks from eating the foods they like just because you don't like them." in this we are in total agreement.

[Aikibu]

One question for you...

Why is it instead of answering the entire post in context... You select only certain sentences to support your pre-established point of view even it places it out of context with the original post?

"Selective perception is for those who are afraid of the dark corners of thier own logic" Margaret Mead

Bowing down to you Mr Fooks

William Hazen

[Aristeia]

I try to include the relevent context - but my feeling has always been in these types of discussions where posts get quite long it just gets arduous and confusing if everthing is always reposted in it's entirety. So I attempt to post just the points I am replying to. Any stripping of context is entirely unintentional.

[Aikibu]

I try to include the relevent context - but my feeling has always been in these types of discussions where posts get quite long it just gets arduous and confusing if everthing is always reposted in it's entirety. So I attempt to post just the points I am replying to. Any stripping of context is entirely unintentional.

I completely understand and I apologize for some of my long posts. I try to put allot of thought and mindfulness into what I say these days as well as check my facts before I post...

Bowing down to you Mr. Fooks

William Hazen

[Aristeia]

hey no apology required, I've got no problem with long posts, been known to write a few of them meself...

[DonMagee]

[QUOTE=Erick Mead;192429

MMA's intensity (in what the Marine Corps sometimes calls "adversative" training) is without a doubt proper misogi through shugyo. Misogi shugyo is a powerful teacher whatever its source or particular method. The desire for that legitimate "worn out" palpable feeling is, I hazard a guess, a predominant part if the appeal of MMA. But shugyo is both to remove the slack and polish the spirit. I would say, more charitably, that MMA and most competitive arts, lean one way on that spectrum, and aikido leans the other way.
[/QUOTE]

No offense intended. But this is one of the major things that draws me away from aikido. Too much repeating the same things over and over just to use japaneese words to sound more insightful.

Example while watching the last UFC, If I said that anderson silva was controling the ring effectively to keep rich franklin out of effective range, an aikido person would usually say something like

"Yes, his concepts of proper maai are inline with his blah blah (Sorry I don't know enough japaeese to even pull it off).

It really annoys me to no end.

[mathewjgano]

"Yes, his concepts of proper maai are inline with his blah blah (Sorry I don't know enough japaeese to even pull it off).

It really annoys me to no end.

Well, Don, clearly your musubi has some tsumi to purify! evileyes ;) :D

[Erick Mead]

Too much repeating the same things over and over just to use japaneese words to sound more insightful.

Example while watching the last UFC, If I said that anderson silva was controling the ring effectively to keep rich franklin out of effective range, an aikido person would usually say something like

"Yes, his concepts of proper maai are inline with his blah blah (Sorry I don't know enough japaeese to even pull it off).

It really annoys me to no end.But that is why we use them. :D

Seriously, your example of making "range" = "maai" illustrates why we use them -- because the concepts have no good shorthand in English with more precision or well-accepted meaning. It took me a long time to get that. "Maai" as used in aikido is not simply range, or space, or even timing -- at least, not only those things - "interval" is closer in the sense used in music.

Maai applies not merely to the physical arrangement but to the playing out of the dynamic in, well, harmonic terms -- physical harmonics. Proper maai is exactly like the standing waves of a plucked string -- if you do not know what is happening, the dynamic may look like a static bent shape spanning a static distance -- but it isn't that at all. If you tried to make a string fit that shape over that distance in static terms you end up with a floppy mess, but if it is simply taut and tuned to the proper harmonic -- it forms itself when struck.

[Aikibu]

No offense intended. But this is one of the major things that draws me away from aikido. Too much repeating the same things over and over just to use japaneese words to sound more insightful.

Example while watching the last UFC, If I said that anderson silva was controling the ring effectively to keep rich franklin out of effective range, an aikido person would usually say something like

"Yes, his concepts of proper maai are inline with his blah blah (Sorry I don't know enough japaeese to even pull it off).

It really annoys me to no end.

Very strange indeed. I have practiced Aikido and other Japanese Martial Arts for over 30 years and I still don't speak the language.

No offense intended but way should a foreign language have that much emotional control over you?

We watched the Silva/Franklin fight... Aikidoka, MMA fighters and the like and none of us felt annoyed that Silva speaks Portuguese to explain himself. heck most of the better BJJ Fighters I know are from Brazil...

William Hazen

[Cyrijl]

No offense intended but way should a foreign language have that much emotional control over you?
I think Don could have easily made the same remarks to you and Erick.

I didn't post in this thread, but this one and the other one about resisting just drove me to it.

MMA is not a style, it is a training method. As such there is no winning or losing. Luckily there is also not much passive-aggressiveness like the type you see from aikidoka in this thread. You fill others with your own perceptions and then decry when other do the same.

I have met very few aikido who hold anything close to honor. The same goes with BJJ. However, people who train heart and soul in something and for something, well that is another matter.

If you take a bjj student of 6 months and an aikido student of six months, they do not develop honor at different rates. People go into training with certain mindset and cultural conditioning. Someone who might be drawn to aikido might already be drawn to the subservient communal think of stereotypical japanese culture. Because that student acts in a way which may appear to be honorable, that does not in fact make him honorable.

I think that is why you see alot of passive aggressve arguments form aikidoka. Aikido doesn't make someone that way, people who are like that are drawn to aikido much like some bonehead/meathead might be attracted to MMA style training or wrestling.

Overtime, however, the bad elements of each style tend to be weeded out. The most serious injury I have ever had was in aikido class. In fact it was the aggression in the aikido class that made me quit.

Just becasue someone isn't insulting, or isn't resisting fully does not mean that person is not aggressive.

Sorry for being so long and repetitive. I am waiting for my halloween candy.

[Aikibu]

I think Don could have easily made the same remarks to you and Erick.

I didn't post in this thread, but this one and the other one about resisting just drove me to it.

MMA is not a style, it is a training method. As such there is no winning or losing. Luckily there is also not much passive-aggressiveness like the type you see from aikidoka in this thread. You fill others with your own perceptions and then decry when other do the same.

I have met very few aikido who hold anything close to honor. The same goes with BJJ. However, people who train heart and soul in something and for something, well that is another matter.

If you take a bjj student of 6 months and an aikido student of six months, they do not develop honor at different rates. People go into training with certain mindset and cultural conditioning. Someone who might be drawn to aikido might already be drawn to the subservient communal think of stereotypical japanese culture. Because that student acts in a way which may appear to be honorable, that does not in fact make him honorable.

I think that is why you see alot of passive aggressve arguments form aikidoka. Aikido doesn't make someone that way, people who are like that are drawn to aikido much like some bonehead/meathead might be attracted to MMA style training or wrestling.

Overtime, however, the bad elements of each style tend to be weeded out. The most serious injury I have ever had was in aikido class. In fact it was the aggression in the aikido class that made me quit.

Just becasue someone isn't insulting, or isn't resisting fully does not mean that person is not aggressive.

Sorry for being so long and repetitive. I am waiting for my halloween candy.

Interesting tale my lad...Thanks for sharing. :)

Bowing down to you Joe...

William Hazen