Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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[Mike_SMD]

Hi folks!
I'm off to a weapons focused class in a few moments but I was thinking today and after my experiences getting 'back in the saddle' the old gears have been turning like mad...

And I've been chewing on something.

I think that BJJ and Aikido (the two biggest of the polar opposites commonly compared in the us vs them realm of the internet) are actually more alike than different. Indeed, given the similarity of root and movements I'm prepared to state that as a point of fact they're actually damn near the same thing. Physically at least... although I'm sure the philosophical approaches of both vary more by club than anything else.

I don't have time to go into it much more right now, but rest assured that I will if pushed. There's a few key pinch points in my reasoning that will need some explaining... maybe... though even then we'll just have to see.

I find this interesting mostly due to the fact that Aikido is billed as a generally useless martial art for self defense (other folk's words - not mine) while BJJ and similar styles get the media blitz for their so-called 'deadly' capabilities.

Buuuuuuuuut...
Marketing spin doesn't generate a reality.

Discuss!

Mike.

[Adam Alexander]

At one time, seeing what BJJers said on this site, being less developed technically/theoretically than I am now and seeing clips of it, could see that they were very similar.

However, now that I've come further along in my technical/theoretical understanding of aikido, I no longer believe they're any more similar than any other two arts. They share a lot, but all do.

People saying one's superior over the other? I've adopted the idea that if I need to prove it, I'll show up at your place. If you need to prove it, you'll show up at mine. Everything else is just talk...empty, empty talk.

[CNYMike]

.... I think that BJJ and Aikido (the two biggest of the polar opposites commonly compared in the us vs them realm of the internet) are actually more alike than different. Indeed, given the similarity of root and movements I'm prepared to state that as a point of fact they're actually damn near the same thing .....

I think the best way to investigate this (assuming you're not doing so already) would be to crosstrain in BJJ --- go at least once a week while continuing in Aikido. In a year to two, see how you look at them.

[Aikibu]

They Compliment each other well. :)

William Hazen

[Budd]

They Compliment each other well. :)


Seconded. Assuming the person training has the right attitude ;)

[Mike_SMD]

Yeah, I'm going to agree totally here... it's not so much a compliment as it is an outright meshing as the scale of the distance of conflict decreases. Circles are circles after all.

Roast in the oven.
Talk more later.

Though...
The 'if I have to prove it I'll show up at your house' is sort of silly, hell yeah things have to be proven! Certainly though there's always a chance to do so with more sharing and less conflict in mind...?

Maybe I missed your meaning though, anyway I can *feel* my partner glaring at me right through the kitchen wall.... sooooo...

Take care,

Mike.

[Roman Kremianski]

When I started BJJ I found it surprisingly paralleled Aikido. Center of gravity concepts, relaxation, breathing, and of course, it actually made it possible to over come a larger opponent without hurting him.

Something I found was too hard for me in Aikido.

It added a whole new dimension to my training. It was easy staying relaxed on my feet with a compliant uke, but quite the opposite while on my back with a 60lb heavier guy on me trying to put some hurting on. Many non-BJJers don't appreciate the mind state you have to work your way up to in order to stay relaxed in bad positions. I mean, my first month I was squirming like a ferret. Still do with people more experienced than me.

[Aristeia]

some of us have been saying they are strategically almost identical for some time. My BJJ coach once mentioned he was surprised I copped flak from some in the aikikido community as he would have thought them to be very similar.

I suspect like adam/jean/dale that any two arts one studieds you would tend to notice similarities, but I find them particularly striking in bjj/aikido. I still often find myself using aikido terms when coachingh bjj....

[deepsoup]

Well of course Aikido and BJJ are compatable - they're both basically just Judo after all!
<hides under desk>
:)

[Drew Mailman]

I wish there was a BJJ school worth a damn in my town... Oh well.

[Ron Tisdale]

Maybe I missed your meaning though, anyway I can *feel* my partner glaring at me right through the kitchen wall.... sooooo...

Now THAT is aikido! :D

B,
R

[Basia Halliop]

I think that BJJ and Aikido (the two biggest of the polar opposites commonly compared in the us vs them realm of the internet) are actually more alike than different.

I wonder if the fact that two things are contrasted so often is really evidence of their being polar opposites: it could also be a sign that there's enough overlap in the people who do them to find people who know enough about both to have a strong opinion on both. Don't we often argue more with neighbours then with those who are really far from our universe?

[Kevin Wilbanks]

Well of course Aikido and BJJ are compatable - they're both basically just Judo after all!
<hides under desk>
:)

Actually, that's not far off. All three you mention descendants of Japanese Ju Jutsu with more specialized focus.

[Mike_SMD]

(this in response to Basia's comment)

Very interesting observation...

If there wasn't enough overlap for us to at least *grasp* what the fundamentals of BJJ include we sure as heck wouldn't feel comfortable critiquing it.

Not often that I hear of Aikidoka being compared to the enthusiasts of Kalaripayit, now... is it...?

Though...
When I really dig into it...

-mumbles thoughtfully to self-

(don't mind the glibness, I like where you're going with this)

Take care,

Mike.

[Aristeia]

If there wasn't enough overlap for us to at least *grasp* what the fundamentals of BJJ include we sure as heck wouldn't feel comfortable critiquing it.

You'd think so wouldn't you. And yet.....

[Basia Halliop]

You'd think so wouldn't you. And yet.....

:lol

Probably all it takes is for people to _feel_ like they grasp something of it, even a little bit. When it comes to confidence in critiquing, perception of knowledge is even more important than actual knowledge, isn't it?

But I was thinking also just of the fact that it's something people in Aikido know exists (!) and hear about often enough to remember it exists (I don't know if the the same is true the other way around). Maybe there's even occasionally some sense that they have at least some common ground to bother comparing them at all.

[Roman Kremianski]

On a related note, here's an interesting video of a BJJ guy sparring with an Aikido guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ny3yZitAFU

[Budd]

I'm not usually one to claim that video snippets are worth much of anything, but I don't think either person came off particularly well - the aikido guy seemed to throw "cheap" strikes that weren't particularly effective, the bjj guy (a white belt) kept trying to pull guard until the end *grumbles*, when his o soto gari was successful, but he got rolled and the aikido guy held him in kesa gatame.

I'm not sure if they had agreed to a ruleset (the comments weren't clear), or if the bjj guy assumed the aikido guy would spar according to jits rules (which is what I would assume if I was crashing their class). The bjj guy claimed that the aikido guy was going for nut shots, eye gouges, etc., which I think is pretty much dirty pool unless you're attacked or the ruleset agrees upon is really "anything goes".

Thing is, everyone's got a belief system, everyone's got a plan (until they get hit) and most people already know everything anyway, so they don't usually take advantage of trying to learn something new. But if I'm a guest at someone else's class, I play by their "rules" - simple good manners.

Today's aikido guy that talks down on learning grappling will be tomorrow's bjj student trying to tell us how to "fix" aikido. Today's bjj guy that doesn't learn takedowns (or train how to "not" get taken down - yes - they are out there) will be tomorrow's wrestler/judoka that wants to "fix" bjj. Today's wrestler/judoka that doesn't think strikes are useful will be tomorrow's mma player looking to point out where each art has holes. Tomorrow's mma player might not ever become really "great" at any aspect of their game, but might focus on "lay and prey" stuff that works great in a cage, but not so much in the real world.

Basically, today's guy that already "knows the answer", will be tomorrow's guy telling the person using his "today answer" why he is wrong tomorrow, without realizing that even tomorrow, there might still be more he doesn't get.

In other words, never assume you have the answers, get out there and train with people that know things you don't. Keep researching, keep improving and don't be an asshole if you can help it.

Note to self: Periodically remind myself to take my own advice . . . ;)

[Shannon Frye]

I think that the principals of both arts can be viewed as similar - the differences are fueled not by the differences in "styles", but in the differences of the people performing the art. Your "average" aikidoka is not a carbon copy of your "average" bjj student.

But I DO doubt that any bjj forum would ever admit having any similarity to aikido. Evolution is such a wonderful thing!

[Roman Kremianski]

Today's bjj guy that doesn't learn takedowns (or train how to "not" get taken down - yes - they are out there) will be tomorrow's wrestler/judoka that wants to "fix" bjj.

No one in BJJ is interested in "fixing" BJJ. They would just train wrestling.

Your theories are interesting to read, but almost make it seem like you've never trained in either. Wrestlers/Judoka don't think strikes are useful? Do they not own a pair of human arms?

They called it mixed martial arts for a reason. Because it's just a collection of knowledge from different arts. Instead of fixing one thing or trying to make something "whole", people go else where for knowledge.

Sort of why I don't see the point of people arguing that things like sparring/groundwork/striking/insert anything here, etc should be introduced into Aikido. If you want it, there's a time and place to get it.

My opinion on the video: I thought the BJJ guy did a poor job. Not gonna go into detail, but he looked like he was deathly afraid of clinching the Aikidoka.:uch:

[Roman Kremianski]

Not implying you don't train BJJ Budd, as I know you do. Do you just grapple or do MMA in general?

[Aristeia]

My opinion on the video: I thought the BJJ guy did a poor job. agreed. much of the video also demonstrated the difficulty of introducing sparring into aikido. It was what happens when no one really wants to engage.

[Budd]

No one in BJJ is interested in "fixing" BJJ. They would just train wrestling.:

Believe it or not, there are still folks out there that think bjj is the end-all, be-all for combat. Just like there may be aikido people out there that haven't trained to make their stuff work in a "live" environment.


Your theories are interesting to read, but almost make it seem like you've never trained in either. Wrestlers/Judoka don't think strikes are useful? Do they not own a pair of human arms?

Are my theories violating one of your (relatively new, I bet) belief systems?

I try not to buy into party lines/belief systems of anything just because other people do. You're mixing up my argument - I'm pointing out extreme cases (of what I consider dumb behavior) that later turns into more cases (of what I consider dumb behavior), just with a change in viewpoint.

Some Wrestlers/Judoka have had enough success with what they got (stuff strikes, clinch, takedown, finish) that they'll just say, "Strikes, why do I need to learn that?".

Sometimes, they are right (the athletes that are into compeition over combatives). In terms of actual conflict, the smart ones will know better. But then my original point was that being well-rounded was a good idea, only dumb people think they know everything.

They called it mixed martial arts for a reason. Because it's just a collection of knowledge from different arts. Instead of fixing one thing or trying to make something "whole", people go else where for knowledge.

Even mixed martial artists are subject to "gym/camp loyalty", which when used to propogate belief systems over training & development - can cause stagnation. I don't buy the argument that because one's training in mma, they automatically become exempt from this . . . The successful/smart ones know better (see previous point) . . . but . . .

Don't even get me started on how many are trying to latch onto the buzz term "mma" with how they train . . .

Sort of why I don't see the point of people arguing that things like sparring/groundwork/striking/insert anything here, etc should be introduced into Aikido. If you want it, there's a time and place to get it.

There's a difference between tacking on a form of practice that conflicts or isn't congruent with your training system/goals, versus applying base principles into various training paradigms. Sometimes it depends on whether training is principle versus technique-based, other times it depends on how "honestly" the principles are applied.

[Budd]

Not implying you don't train BJJ Budd, as I know you do. Do you just grapple or do MMA in general?

I used to go play with MMA boys more, but these days, I pretty much just go periodically crash the local BJJ school and try to get a decent mix between gi and no-gi. No real interest in rank and tournaments. It's always fun to get the newbies that want to "teach" me how to do all the techniques while drilling, then see the change in their faces when we start to roll.

I've also got a buddy that boxes and I go play with him and his guys every once in a while.

I had some humorous attempts at kickboxing years ago in college, but I might get back into that type of training (I can always can use a laugh) just to put a thin patch of spackle on that hole and work out some kinks.

Thing is, even in different environments, I'm still applying MY core physical AIKIDO principles in those settings (irimi, irimitenkan, disrupt structure via connection by moving ME, etc.) - with varying degree of success, but it's still done with the main goal of making my overall aikido better.

'Course, there's a part of me that just likes to "bang". Reigning that side in is just another reason that I do aikido.

[statisticool]

I never understood the "vs" part.

Have martial artists lost the goal of self defense against attacks in real life, and are now only interested in global martial arts instruction domination?

[Roman Kremianski]

A bit confused. Do you just crash/play/throw down MMA/BJJ every so often, or do you dedicate 2-4 times a week on the mat for a committed period of time? I also meddled and sparred with friends during the time when I did Aikido exclusively, but everything changed once I committed to an MMA school and really started studying the aspects.

[Budd]

Just to settle your confusion, these days I try to do formal BJJ once a week (mixing up gi vs. no-gi) and then seminars whenever possible. I work out with grapplers from wrestling, judo and sambo whenever possible. I have a base in boxing, judo, wrestling, sports karate (blecch) and humorous attempts at kickboxing (not my game, I know it, but still think there's benefit to training it). I try to brush up on these with other practitioners whenever possible, but am primarly committed with my dojo's aikido program (as my long term budo study).

I started training in martial sports when I was 5 (judo) and continued in one form (judo - wrestling - judo - wrestling - karate - wrestling) or another through college. I am now 32. I have different training goals than martial sports, but still recognize the skills they build and polish. I don't claim expertise in any of them, but still like to go play with people that are.

When I spar with people in specific martial sports, I usually already have some sort of a base in a version of their sport (if not their sport). So, depending on the sparring paradigm, I'm not going to backpedal from a clinch or takedown and don't mind trading hands and feet. In other words, I'll shin kick, jab, hook, bodylock, shoot, submit with the next guy. I'm not gonna try to tenkan, spin away from trouble or panic when things don't look like aikido.

Because each sport trains towards certain goals (even different gyms within the same sports - don't believe me? Go visit three different non-affilitated BJJ schools in one week), the degree with which they're congruent with how I train overall can sometimes throw me off. But it goes back to what Don Magee said (and I've already stolen this as a saying), when you're training a specific drill (no matter the art/style/sport), you work on the goals of that specific drill, regardless of what you "think" you know.

[salim]

Very interesting thread and love to here people developing there marital arts skills. Interesting youtube clip. The Aikidoist looked pretty winded and I wonder if he would really be a match to a trained BJJ fighter of higher skills. Really goes to show that you can't rely on any one martial art.

Often times we read so much philosophy about Aikido that the realities of self defense are garbled in the intellectual writings of some Aikidoist. I agree with Don Magee and Budd Yuhasz. Great to here people speaking about the realities of marital arts.

[paw]

On a related note, here's an interesting video of a BJJ guy sparring with an Aikido guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ny3yZitAFU

I suppose I'm a day late and a dollar short...

Where I've trained, an aikido black belt tends to be someone with at least 5-6 years of training time. Someone with 5-6 years of training time in bjj wouldn't be a white belt, mostly likely blue/purple. To me it would be more accurate to show two people with similar training times to draw any conclusions.

Regards,

Paul

[Roman Kremianski]

BJJ and Aikido belts are a bit different. I don't believe one has to be a BJJ black belt to play with an Aikido black belt. Kind of how many top MMA guys are BJJ white belts, and have have known to have beaten many high belt BJJ guys.

[Aristeia]

yeah but this guy looked to be a white white belt. *maybe* 1 stripe....

[salim]

The Aikido guy eye gouged the BJJ guy at the end. The Aikido guy was pretty winded and the BJJ guy allowed him to regain himself. If the BJJ guy was a black belt the story may have been completely different. Also I noticed the methods of atemi waza were used a lot by the Aikidoist.

[Aristeia]

BJJ guy was a black belt the story may have been completely different..*may* have? Based on that video if the bjj guy had been one of my three stripe white belts it would have been completely different...

[Roman Kremianski]

That's I'm trying to say.

[salim]

Perhaps they give out black belts in Aikido like giving candy to a child.

[Roman Kremianski]

BJJ black belts are few and between in contrast to Aikido. Try to search up some local BJJ black belts in your city/town. Harder yet, try finding some that are actually capable of awarding belts.

[Aristeia]

why would a bjj bb not be able to award at least blue and purple?

[dalen7]

Perhaps they give out black belts in Aikido like giving candy to a child.

would be nice...my sempai (1st kyu) has been at it 10 years I believe...our 2nd kyus have been at it around 7 years I would say...so please, oh please start handing out those candy black belts - or Im switching! :D

Peace

dAlen

[Roman Kremianski]

why would a bjj bb not be able to award at least blue and purple?

Meant black belts. My mistake.

[Bill Brownlow]

Hi folks!

... although I'm sure the philosophical approaches of both vary more by club than anything else....


Can't agree more. The club where I have been training BJJ for the past 8 years has a very favorable look on Aikido. The stand up techniques we learn to apply for self defense are often ikkio, nikkio, sankyo or kote-gaeshi (sorry if mangled the spelling). My instructor doesn't often use Aikido lingo, but teaches it as "defense against a one handed lapel grab, variation #1, and variation #2 " This is how I learned it.

A few years ago, my work scheduled changed for a few months and I couldn't train with him regularly, I joined an Aikido dojo for that time and was like, "Cool, I kind of know this". I say kind of because our stand up classes were maybe once a month and there is a certain amount of use it or lose it with my muscle memory.

After getting back to my regular club and talking to my instructor about it he told me that "Yeah, you can call it Aikido if you like. I prefer to call it Jiu Jitsu. Wrestling, Boxing, Karate, call it whatever you want, but to me they are all different sections of the same sphere of movement I like to call Jiu Jitsu." He told me another time, "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, just takes Aikido and puts it on the floor. Its the same concepts of spherical movement, blending and redirecting our opponent. In bjj we just use our backs and hips instead of our feet and hips to generate the movement. (think lying down vs standing up) He holds shodan in aikido and judo, nidan in tang soo do and has many years in freestyle/folkstyle wrestling, thai boxing and escrima apart from his bjj training.

Personally, I like his philosophy. Call it what you want its all jiu jitsu to me.


...Aikido is billed as a generally useless martial art for self defense (other folk's words - not mine) while BJJ and similar styles get the media blitz ....


First see above about self defense per se.

When sparring 1 on 1 my instructor will usually use the classic MMA (thai box/bjj). As soon as another person enters the mix its an aikido game.

Thanks for reading.
Bill

[Budd]

Nice post, Bill, your perspective and mileage are appreciated.

[Bill Brownlow]

Hi folks!

... although I'm sure the philosophical approaches of both vary more by club than anything else....


Can't agree more. The club where I have been training BJJ for the past 8 years has a very favorable look on Aikido. The stand up techniques we learn to apply for self defense are often ikkio, nikkio, sankyo or kote-gaeshi (sorry if mangled the spelling). My instructor doesn't often use Aikido lingo, but teaches it as "defense against a one handed lapel grab, variation #1, and variation #2 " This is how I learned it.

A few years ago, my work scheduled changed for a few months and I couldn't train with him regularly, I joined an Aikido dojo for that time and was like, "Cool, I kind of know this". I say kind of because our stand up classes were maybe once a month and there is a certain amount of use it or lose it with my muscle memory.

After getting back to my regular club and talking to my instructor about it he told me that "Yeah, you can call it Aikido if you like. I prefer to call it Jiu Jitsu. Wrestling, Boxing, Karate, call it whatever you want, but to me they are all different sections of the same sphere of movement I like to call Jiu Jitsu." He told me another time, "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, just takes Aikido and puts it on the floor. Its the same concepts of spherical movement, blending and redirecting our opponent. In bjj we just use our backs and hips instead of our feet and hips to generate the movement. (think lying down vs standing up) He holds shodan in aikido and judo, nidan in tang soo do and has many years in freestyle/folkstyle wrestling, thai boxing and escrima apart from his bjj training.

Personally, I like his philosophy. Call it what you want its all jiu jitsu to me.


...Aikido is billed as a generally useless martial art for self defense (other folk's words - not mine) while BJJ and similar styles get the media blitz ....


First see above about self defense.

To address uselessness, When sparring 1 on 1 my instructor will almost always use the classic MMA (thai box/bjj). As soon as another person enters the mix its an aikido game. The reason being not that Aikido is useless for handling 1 on 1, but Aikido becomes the only option (in his opinion) for handling more than 1.

Thanks for reading.
Bill

[DonMagee]

I think the white belt in that video was poor quality even for a white belt. I'd put him at the under 1 month mark in skill. He made very classical mistakes and had no confidence. He seemed to have no knowledge of take downs in any regards (bjj or otherwise) and for some unknown reason wanted to pull the aikido guy down on top of him.

He was not prepared for a bjj tournament, let alone a challenge match.

[salim]

would be nice...my sempai (1st kyu) has been at it 10 years I believe...our 2nd kyus have been at it around 7 years I would say...so please, oh please start handing out those candy black belts - or Im switching! :D

Peace

dAlen
Come to North Carolina and see all the pretty black belts. Most have no clue about self defense, there tasebaki and tenkan looks like there dancing!

[Ron Tisdale]

I really didn't see much in the video to impress me on either side.

Who knows how foolish I'd look though...

B,
R ;)

[Bill Brownlow]

I think the white belt in that video was poor quality even for a white belt. I'd put him at the under 1 month mark in skill. He made very classical mistakes and had no confidence. He seemed to have no knowledge of take downs in any regards (bjj or otherwise) and for some unknown reason wanted to pull the aikido guy down on top of him.

He was not prepared for a bjj tournament, let alone a challenge match.

I didn't watch the whole thing because I thought it was boring and I'm not going to comment on the white belt's level of experience (or the black belt's), but I find it hard to believe that you have never seen people "pulling guard" like that. It is a very common white belt takedown, at the last tournament I was at I saw some blue belts doing it rather successfully (of course they gave up the 2pts for takedown).

The "unknown reason" to pull the guy down on top of him is demonstrated at about 00:56 into the video. The camera angle is not good but he clearly has the guy in his guard and works an armbar - unsuccessfully, but thats what was going on.

[Ron Tisdale]

Yikes...Don I'm sure understands what "pulling guard" is...

I think he is questioning the logic of using that in that situation. Which I would question too...

Against a competant aikidoka, I'd be working judo sweeps and wrestling shots, NOT trying to pull guard clumsily.

Best,
Ron

[DonMagee]

OMG!!!!!!
I watched the video again and realized I know this guy!!!!!! I can't believe I missed my club's patch on his back!

He trains at my bjj club when he is in town (rarely). He's actually here this week. I'm going to have to pick on him about it.

He's a large guy, and from what I seen last night at practice (first time he's been here in months) he still tries strength over technique. He's also young and very scared of hand and wrist locks. One night at my house my aikido instructor wanted to show a quick lock and he asked to use him. He only touched his hand and the kid about jumped though the roof.

He's a nice guy though. I really believe he probably did not even realize that he was in a challenge match and thought he was in a bjj match. I think he learned a valuable lesson in that video. Ask about the rules before you accept cross style challenge matches. It's hard for him because he really has no training except for when he is in South Bend, IN and can train with us.

After reading the comments. I'm kinda embarrassed at how everyone makes it seem like the aikido guy was a bad guy though. He was just playing his game by his rules. Nothing wrong with that. Personally the moment he hit me or went for a dirty technique. My game would of changed and I would of done the same. I can't fault him for playing his game though. It did demonstrate that being mentally prepared to keep and play your game will allow you control another fighter.

But I can't claim the white belt was unprepared. He has at least 4-6 solid months of bjj. Which I always claim is enough to take down and submit most people. He has also on a few occasions trained in judo with us on saturdays. I guess I can only point to a lack of consistent training with partners more skilled them him has created some large holes in his game. I'm still going to pick on him for getting beaten up while trying to pull the sloppiest guard I've seen in a while.

[Bill Brownlow]

Yikes...Don I'm sure understands what "pulling guard" is...

I think he is questioning the logic of using that in that situation. Which I would question too...

Against a competant aikidoka, I'd be working judo sweeps and wrestling shots, NOT trying to pull guard clumsily.

Best,
Ron

I certainly meant no disrespect to Don, but re-reading my post I can see how it may have come off preachy. I did not have that intention.

I was trying to impress that if you only have a hammer in your toolbox, everything looks like a nail. Depending on the white belt's level and previous grappling/martial arts exp, that may be the only way to take down an opponent that he knows. As a white belt, all he knows is submissions from the ground.

I would agree with you as well that trying to pull guard without setting up a good opening for it is a very BAD idea, and yes from what little I saw it was clumsy.

[DonMagee]

I certainly meant no disrespect to Don, but re-reading my post I can see how it may have come off preachy. I did not have that intention.

I was trying to impress that if you only have a hammer in your toolbox, everything looks like a nail. Depending on the white belt's level and previous grappling/martial arts exp, that may be the only way to take down an opponent that he knows. As a white belt, all he knows is submissions from the ground.

I would agree with you as well that trying to pull guard without setting up a good opening for it is a very BAD idea, and yes from what little I saw it was clumsy.

That's why I didn't call it pulling guard. Pulling guard like a throw requires you break the balance first. Otherwise you are just trying to pull the guy down on top of you, or hugging a guy standing up with your legs wrapped around him.

[salim]

I think it's great that we have an Aikidoist sparring. We should advocate for more sparring. It's a true test of a person's ability, unlike demonstrations, which tell you nothing about a person ability to realistically defend themselves. Winner or loser, it's a real test of ability.

[philippe willaume]

Hello

First of all, what would have been the reaction, had that white belt whooped his black belt ass?

So BJJ did not work very well on that very occurrence, and so what . one swallow does not bring the spring

If you are sparing on a regular basis what ever the sparing at, you will lose some here and then. And that is all sparing proves that X had the better on Z at a time T.

Can we really call the “punches” and “kicks” strikes, they seems to me more like distraction to me.
Besides you are a little bit naïve when sparing with some who know you grapple, does not have a ground game himself and except him to drop his only weapons preserve the distance.
Aikido is not magical, you need to have create an advantage to establish your techniques.

phil

[Basia Halliop]

Well, I don't know enough about BJJ to know how good or bad he was, but I wasn't hugely impressed by the Aikido guy, at least considering he was the one wearing a black belt and presumably had several years more training than the other guy.

[Basia Halliop]

I assumed the kicking and punching was partly an attempt to start some kind of interaction, to get the other guy to block or strike back and give himself something more familiar to respond to or something, since he probably was used to training from some kind of strike or grab... I don't really know though.

[salim]

Hello

First of all, what would have been the reaction, had that white belt whooped his black belt ass?

So BJJ did not work very well on that very occurrence, and so what . one swallow does not bring the spring

If you are sparing on a regular basis what ever the sparing at, you will lose some here and then. And that is all sparing proves that X had the better on Z at a time T.

Can we really call the "punches" and "kicks" strikes, they seems to me more like distraction to me.
Besides you are a little bit naïve when sparing with some who know you grapple, does not have a ground game himself and except him to drop his only weapons preserve the distance.
Aikido is not magical, you need to have create an advantage to establish your techniques.

phil

I disagree with you regarding what sparring does for a person. Sparring is not about winning or losing necessarily. The object for some, is to determine a person's self defense capability. It allows a person to judge there weaknesses with there timing, there ability to move in any direction, there ability to counter act unplanned attacks or moves that you are not familiar with defending. It allows you to judge yourself, improve your own skills and abilities. There are an array of unconventional punches, kicks, take downs, movements that only training, sparring can allow a person to learn from. Sparring is a good training method for self defense.

[salim]

Look how winded the Aikido guy was. The BJJ guy actually allowed the Aikido to regain his wind. Imagine a real fight, they are not going to allow you to regain you wind. In a real fight they are going to kick your ass, put a hurting own you. If we didn't learn anything from the video, we learn that physical conditioning extremely is important.

[DonMagee]

Very true, he was too nice. If someone tried to eye gouge me. I would not rest until they were out cold.

[salim]

It's amazing how the Aikikai and Ki organizations, really are the ones who have a problem with the training methods of sparring. They are so heavily influenced by the Shinto religion that they have abandon the combativeness that Aikido had, post WWII.

You rarely here the Yoseikan, Yoshikhan or Aikibudo organization having a gripe with sparring or self defense. Really a turn off to those who have the drive to learn purely self defense.

[philippe willaume]

I disagree with you regarding what sparring does for a person. Sparring is not about winning or losing necessarily. The object for some, is to determine a person's self defense capability. It allows a person to judge there weaknesses with there timing, there ability to move in any direction, there ability to counter act unplanned attacks or moves that you are not familiar with defending. It allows you to judge yourself, improve your own skills and abilities. There are an array of unconventional punches, kicks, take downs, movements that only training, sparring can allow a person to learn from. Sparring is a good training method for self defense.

Well about losing and winning
You are dancing around the bush here.
In sparing, it is not so much the case one will fare better than the other globally (that will fluctuate through time and it does not really matter. But for each technique that he successfully applies you lost. That is the net result of all the assessment you are making. There should be no issue recognising that your sparing partner has the better on you. In fact that is te first step to address issue you have with your strategy, tactics or technique.
(Though usually technique is not the one that, let you down, it is trying to apply one when it is not really the time or the place.)

My point is that even if you are very good in sparing, your partner will get some on you.
It happens and I would say that exactly the point. Sparing is an environment where losing as no consequences. Winning ort loosing do not really matter as you will always be able to get a positive aspect on how you perform.
I think it is not very different to what you are saying. However No not recognising failure lead to the comment that the guy that spared made on you tube.
Ie I controlled him all the time, I could have ,I would have if I really wanted to…
No he did not have control of the bloke most of the time, if that was the case he would have pulled more successful technique. It is not a matter of could would or wanting….
If that is what you get out of sparing, it will never be of any use.

About the virtue of sparing
What the sparing scenario “I am squaring up to you outside any partcial range or at extreme kick range” has to do with self defence? Sparing is duelling which seldom happens in self defence.
Sparing only value in self defence is that it tunes your strategically, tactical and technical aspect of fighting. basically it makes you better at using the technique.
As well if you are recreating an art like medieval fencing for exemple, sparing is very important research tool because if you can not pull a technique in sparring, there is something that you did not understand and you need to go back to the manual.
And for me that is the biggest danger with sparing, you can drop a technique because it does not work, where in fact the technique is perfectly fine and the problem is in where and when you tried to use it.

From work (or drill) is the place to develop technique not sparing. Sparing can give an idea for drill/ form work. But to develop the motor skill for a given technique, you need consistency and sparing can not give you that. (Well it will eventually do, but it is much much more inefficient than drill/from work.)

phil

[philippe willaume]

I assumed the kicking and punching was partly an attempt to start some kind of interaction, to get the other guy to block or strike back and give himself something more familiar to respond to or something, since he probably was used to training from some kind of strike or grab... I don't really know though.
To me he used kick and punches, to fill the vacuum between them, So that the bjj guy could not close on him. It is exactly like keeping the point of a sword towards your opponent.
They were not really strikes so to speak, they are warning shot across the bow if you want.
Of course there is always the possibility that my 87 grand-mother pack more whallops that the aikido guy or that he is severely short sighted and strike too short.

Ps
Not to throw a spanner in the works but the aikido guy can be knackered, he just had his training session. I do not know how long and how intense his sessions are but I am not on top condition after mine.

[philippe willaume]

Well, I don't know enough about BJJ to know how good or bad he was, but I wasn't hugely impressed by the Aikido guy, at least considering he was the one wearing a black belt and presumably had several years more training than the other guy.

Sparring will seldom look nice or impressive (unless the party involved are very good).
Yes it does not look earth shattering but it is a video and we where not there.
It is good that they spared, now there is not that much that video tell us.
Nothing other hand a smaller more experienced aikidoka after a training session was able to hold off /was slightly better than a fresh bigger and much less experience BJJ practitioner.

If those guy where sparing regularly, the BJJ guy will adapt and then reverse the tendency, to which the aikido guy will adapt and reverse the tendency and so and so on.

There is no generic lesson as to this is the proof that X is better than Z here, just what worked and did not for those two guys at that given time. (Where X and Z can be style or persons).
It is just one occurrence. We can not build rules or even have and unqualified opinion with that.

phil

[Keith R Lee]

So, from looking at that video....a few months old BJJ white belt and a Aikido black belt negate each other in terms of skill?

:p

[grondahl]

It's amazing how the Aikikai and Ki organizations, really are the ones who have a problem with the training methods of sparring. They are so heavily influenced by the Shinto religion that they have abandon the combativeness that Aikido had, post WWII.

You rarely here the Yoseikan, Yoshikhan or Aikibudo organization having a gripe with sparring or self defense. Really a turn off to those who have the drive to learn purely self defense.

What? Are you saying that they used to train with sparring in aikido before WW2? And also that Yoshinkan uses sparring in its training?
Where have you "learned" all of this?

[Basia Halliop]

Uh, Salim, don't you mean Tomiki ?.... :rolleyes:

Also, Aikikai isn't really a style per se, it's more a collection of everyone left over who has never left to form their own group :). I wouldn't say it's got any one particular view or philosophy. For example, what I have learned so far about Shintoism after around three years in the Aikikai: it's a religion in Japan.

[Basia Halliop]

For the record, when I said I wasn't hugely impressed, I didn't mean prettiness. All I meant was that they struck me as too well matched for a black belt going against someone with 4-6 months of training. I could have judged wrong though, since I'm not so used to evaluating that format, and anyway, as you say, it's hard to draw big conclusions.

[Basia Halliop]

Uh, Salim, don't you mean Tomiki ?.... :rolleyes:

Also, Aikikai isn't really a style per se, it's more a collection of everyone left over who has never left to form their own group :). I wouldn't say it's got any one particular view or philosophy. For example, what I have learned so far about Shintoism after around three years in the Aikikai: it's a religion in Japan.

[philippe willaume]

What? Are you saying that they used to train with sparring in aikido before WW2? And also that Yoshinkan uses sparring in its training?
Where have you "learned" all of this?

Hello Peter I don’t believe that is what Salim is saying. (that being said, it is forum communication ....)

I think he just says that should you happen to mention a liking or interest in sparing or self defense, those organizations do not send you a two beams, 3 nails and a hammer via 3 roman legionaries.
What I understand he is saying that is those organization are more open to the ideas of sparing and using aikido in a more self defense way that aikikai (which I understand is Hombu affiliated dojo)or ki aikido tradition/schools..

Phil

[Roman Kremianski]

I've yet to see a Yoshinkan dojo where they spar, so maybe I'm missing a piece of the "pre-WW2" history here.

[philippe willaume]

I've yet to see a Yoshinkan dojo where they spar, so maybe I'm missing a piece of the "pre-WW2" history here.

"It's amazing how the Aikikai and Ki organizations, really are the ones who have a problem with the training methods of sparring. They are so heavily influenced by the Shinto religion that they have abandon the combativeness that Aikido had, post WWII."
.

may be i am daft but I do not understand what salim said as they were sparing before WWII and aikikai and ki lost that aspect.

I just understand that as ki and aikikai don not puyt much value on sparing, in fact they have moved away from the more combat oriented pre WWII aikido.

ps i do not nessecarily agree with that, it is too much of sweeping statement, but i think that is what salim is saying.

[grondahl]

That is how I understand Salims post as well. But the problem I see is that all records indicates that Ueshiba didn´t teach sparring either before or after WW2. So the aspect that he claims have been lost has never been there.

may be i am daft but I do not understand what salim said as they were sparing before WWII and aikikai and ki lost that aspect.

I just understand that as ki and aikikai don not puyt much value on sparing, in fact they have moved away from the more combat oriented pre WWII aikido.

ps i do not nessecarily agree with that, it is too much of sweeping statement, but i think that is what salim is saying.

[mathewjgano]

It's amazing how the Aikikai and Ki organizations, really are the ones who have a problem with the training methods of sparring. They are so heavily influenced by the Shinto religion that they have abandon the combativeness that Aikido had, post WWII.

I may not be an expert on this, but I train at a licensed Shinto shrine under a licensed Shinto priest and by most accounts, our form of Aikido is very "firm." I regularly see folks testing each other out before and during training ("sparring," as I understand it) and I've often recieved a crisp strike (never very hard, but it always stings a little) when I don't move properly. I don't think the religion has anything to do with it.
What I think much of the Aikido world takes exception to is the idea of competing too much during these activities. I'm sure there are plenty of dojo that don't like people to compete in the manner described above, but there's a fine line between competing and pushing a partner to new limits. Maybe the best way of saying it is, "safety first?"
Take care,
Matt

[mathewjgano]

That is how I understand Salims post as well. But the problem I see is that all records indicates that Ueshiba didn´t teach sparring either before or after WW2. So the aspect that he claims have been lost has never been there.

Maybe I don't understand what sparring is...
I recall taking tae kwon do in elementary school and watching the yellow belts "spar." They weren't allowed to go at it full force because they're yellow belts, yet it was called "sparring." Maybe an elementary tae kwon do class isn't a good example, but I've never seen "sparring" refer to full-force contact. As I said above, I understand many dojo do not like it when uke tries kaeshiwaza/reversals, but I've still been given the impression there's a degree of "sparring" when two students practice a technique during open-mat sessions. Any time someone stops the flow to teach or make suggestions, isn't that a mild form of sparring? Add to that the increased intensity with which different sempai uke apply pressure and I don't understand the idea that there is no sparring in Aikido. Tomiki Ryu has a very structured sparring system. Their randori system, as I think I understand it, uses a graduating degree of force that I think most people would liken to a graduating degree of sparring, but still it's sparring. Perhaps Shodokan folks with more experience will correct me if I'm wrong.

[grondahl]

But Shodokans system for randori is not prewar as far that I´m aware of.. And it was constructed by Tomiki, not Ueshiba. Thus it was never a part of the training method either in Aikikai hombu, Iwama, Shingu etc....

[mathewjgano]

But Shodokans system for randori is not prewar as far that I´m aware of.. And it was constructed by Tomiki, not Ueshiba. Thus it was never a part of the training method either in Aikikai hombu, Iwama, Shingu etc....

That's a good point about it being more akin to prewar styling (as I assume you meant). Still, what about the underlying principle of added degrees of pressure? I'm probably stretching it by suggesting corrections are a form of sparring, but I know my dojo is influenced by Tohei sensei and Chiba sensei; I assume much of our format was derived from them, but I should probably do more research before I start making assumptions like that.

[mathewjgano]

...sorry, I meant to include the idea that randori isn't exclusively a Shodokan thing. It exists in all styles of aikido...I believe. What's different between randori and sparring?
Maybe I'm getting off topic, but it seems to me sparring is randori and that Aikikai includes this practice. Maybe it's less important than the idea of how much randori to include in one's training, but spontaneous changes in movement is an invaluable aspect of my experiences with Aikido and I have always assumed this to be intrinsic to it and a form of sparring.
Take care,
Matt

[Ron Tisdale]

Hi Mathew,

In general, randori in Japanese arts loses the distinction between uke and nage/shite/tori. Shodokan Aikido follows this example.

Aikikai, Yoshinkan Aikido does do what is called randori, but in most cases, there is still a distinction between uke and nage. One person in uke, and one nage for the entire exercise.

Most of the latter would be quite surprised in a true Shodokan randori situation, I think. Not all...but at least quite a few.

Best,
Ron (I would include myself in that assessment)

[Basia Halliop]

Randori probably means different things in different dojos and with different people.

Most of what I've seen is sort of like 'ukes(s) take turns attacking nage in one of 'the usual' attacks (any attack theoretically), nage does a technique of their choice, uke does ukemi, next uke attacks.' I.e., the uke(s) are still not 'trying to win' generally any more than in paired kata practice, they're just attacking then taking ukemi, it's just that nage doesn't know what attack is coming at him/her or from what direction, and has to decide on the spur of the moment which technique to do for that attack. But it's generally still basically structured and basically 'cooperative', at least what I've mostly seen.

On the other hand, I've also seen/done jiu-waza that was totally different from that, much closer to sparring, attacks much less structured (although still not 'full-force'), you tried to stick in 'real techniques' whenever you could but if you couldn't think of a 'real technique' to do, you did something else fast otherwise the other would do something -- but rarely and only with a few people.

[salim]

What? Are you saying that they used to train with sparring in aikido before WW2? And also that Yoshinkan uses sparring in its training?
Where have you "learned" all of this?

The sparring methodology of Aikido, originally called Aikibudo was that of militaristic superiority. Japan was at it's height in what it called militaristic pride before WWII. The warrior mentality was always a part of the traditional Japanese martial arts before WWII. Historically Aiki methodology was mastered for killing, Aikijujutsu, Aikibudo, etc. The combative nature of these martial arts was for the
warrior , required sparring, testing of skills for combat and effectiveness of technique.

The warrior mentality was part of Ueshiba's mentality at the time. As most know his primary martial arts background was in Judo, from Kiyoichi Takagi, Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, from Takeda Sokaku and other traditional Japanese martial arts. Some writings indicate the speeches of nationalism and gratification of the samurai vanquishing it's enemies. This was the mentality of early Aikido (Aikibudo was the name he used to describe his martial arts at the time.)

Ueshiba became deeply influenced by religious sect leader Onisaburo Deguchi, the leader of the neo-Shinto Omoto-kyo religion. The philosophy of utopia, love and compassion were essential elements in the teachings. Ueshiba distance himself from the methodology of Judo and Aikijujutsu toward the late 1920s or 30's. Aikibudo became Aikido officially in 1942. A result of the religious conversation, what was thought of as a purification of the Aikibudo, to harmonize men. The hostile environment created by the Japanese government also propagated the discontinuance of traditional Japanese combat martial arts. Aikido was formed more from a religious zealousness, losing it's combat nature that it originally had.

The warrior, sparring nature of Aikibudo was reunited from some of the early students of Ueshiba. Minoru Mochizuki, a direct student of Ueshiba and one of the first to bring Aikido to the western world, brought Yoseikan Aikdio. The methodologies of Judo, Aikijujutsu were brought back to the original Aikibudo, very prevalent in France under the auspices of Alain Floquet, a direct student of Mochizuki. Mochizuki preserved the true essence of Aikido. Sparring, competitive nature was brought back to life. Goza Shioda brought Yoshinkan Aikido, another warrior driven methodology. Kenji Tomiki brought Shodokan Aikido, which holds regular competitions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoseikan_Aikido

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shodokan_Aikido

http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=3455

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=244

http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclopedia.php?entryID=324

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=322

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=87

[Ron Tisdale]

Salim, no offense, but I think you've seen too many samurai movies... ;)

Best,
Ron

[salim]

I love those movies.

Cheers

[Budd]

You know, here's a conflict (and I swear it's related to all of this stuff) that there may be in trying to study both aikido and bjj:

Reishiki.

In aikido, very often, there's quite a bit of ceremony and fomalized behavior - sometimes exacerbated needlessly, sometimes critically tied into one's worldview of budo, other times there simply to preserve the tradition in what one's been taught.

Bowing, posture, how to sit, how to stand, opening and closing the engagment - many times there's a right and wrong way to do this . . . which can be a comfort to someone that thrives by strict controls and a hindrance to someone that just wants to roll.

I'll admit, my own bias is typically towards a less formal setting, but thanks to my current instructor, I've begun to see the merit of rei, incorporated it more into my practice and made the effort to better understand what's meant by the term, "Budo begins and ends with Rei" . . .

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu has its own cultural attributes that permeate practice. It's not uncommon to see guys lounging/laying around in a casual fashion while the instructor teaches a technique or drill. This actually can be viewed as having merit in an approach to instruction - in that it's consistent with the idea of using as little energy as possible, conserving strength, etc. It's also indicative of a possibly more casual approach to certain conventions of practice.

Anyhow, I see this as more of a source of conflict than necessarily the techniques and principles. The conflicts in randori I think are also worth mentioning, but I think a number of aikido schools/practitioners legitimately look for ways of "honest" testing that don't have anything to do with competition - whether they call it randori, jiyu waza, sparring, training . . . etc.

[Roman Kremianski]

Is this the Yoseikan Aikido you're talking about Salim? (Just what a found from a quick youtube search)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xRVAjktcT1E

Budd: I've always found that the "When in Rome..." saying worked best for me. Whatever environment you're in, blend with it. I can imagine how Aikidoka might find it weird that BJJ guys talk and laugh during stretching, or play loud music during practice/rolling. Ehehe.

Reishiki doesn't define who you are. Just because you are mimicking another culture doesn't mean you will "lack" something in your martial arts training if you don't follow those guidelines. As long as there's a sense of respect and order on the mat, it's all fine, bowing in seiza or not.

Just what I think.

[grondahl]

Yoseikan Aiki-jutsu.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=inS1EPTMn-A&mode=related&search=

I can feel the combative warrior spirit shine! ;)

[Budd]

Hi Roman,

Agree with the "when in Rome . . ." (especially per my earlier co-opting of Don's quote).

As for mimicking another culture, it's more about retaining aspects of another culture's influences in your current practice and learning to see relevance for yourself - not necessarily making one more or less martial.

Order and respect are relative things, depending on your viewpoint. To your point, there are plenty of instances in a Japanese dojo setting where "respect" is overtly shown, but not given. Likewise in a BJJ session, swearing and silliness can mask shared brotherhood towards a common purpose.

Budd: I've always found that the "When in Rome..." saying worked best for me. Whatever environment you're in, blend with it. I can imagine how Aikidoka might find it weird that BJJ guys talk and laugh during stretching, or play loud music during practice/rolling. Ehehe.

Reishiki doesn't define who you are. Just because you are mimicking another culture doesn't mean you will "lack" something in your martial arts training if you don't follow those guidelines. As long as there's a sense of respect and order on the mat, it's all fine, bowing in seiza or not.

Just what I think.

[salim]

Is this the Yoseikan Aikido you're talking about Salim? (Just what a found from a quick youtube search)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xRVAjktcT1E

Budd: I've always found that the "When in Rome..." saying worked best for me. Whatever environment you're in, blend with it. I can imagine how Aikidoka might find it weird that BJJ guys talk and laugh during stretching, or play loud music during practice/rolling. Ehehe.

Reishiki doesn't define who you are. Just because you are mimicking another culture doesn't mean you will "lack" something in your martial arts training if you don't follow those guidelines. As long as there's a sense of respect and order on the mat, it's all fine, bowing in seiza or not.

Just what I think.

Yes thats Yoseikan Aikido.

[salim]

[QUOTE=Peter Gröndahl;187322]Yoseikan Aiki-jutsu.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=inS1EPTMn-A&mode=related&search=

I can feel the combative warrior spirit shine! ;)[/QUOTE

Nice youtube clip and definitely more adaptive to self defense.

[Roman Kremianski]

Likewise in a BJJ session, swearing and silliness can mask shared brotherhood towards a common purpose.

By respect and order I didn't really mean quiet seiza and Japanese class lingo. Meant more of what you said. We swear all the time, and our teacher regularly (and good heartedly) refers to some of his students as "punks", but there is a strong sense of family in the dojo. No one is out to get no one, and every one is on good terms, especially when it comes time to help someone progress.

Just felt like saying that as a lot of people speak of the etiquette in Aikido as if it produces better people than an MMA gym. Many of our folks have careers too, and they go about their day just like anyone else. Whatever works for the person right?

I always found it strange though how mellowed out people are here. You go to a youth hockey team outing and it's usually a testosterone-powered rivalry. You walk into a gym where people of all sizes come in to fight, and it's like walking into a cafe.

[Budd]

I always found it strange though how mellowed out people are here. You go to a youth hockey team outing and it's usually a testosterone-powered rivalry. You walk into a gym where people of all sizes come in to fight, and it's like walking into a cafe.

Yeah, there's groups in the aiki and MMA end of the spectrum that beat the crap out of each other, such that people are always injured (for stupid reasons, IMO). There's also folks in both games that know when to appropriately "turn it on", but generally know how to be cool and keep it in context.

[mathewjgano]

Ron, thanks for the clarification on randori! I find I often develop a sense of certain terminology which is close, but not quite correct, to the actual meaning. I think I may be thinking of "shiai" but I'm not yet positive of that.

Salim, thanks for the bit of history. You've clearly looked it up more than I have. My only real point was that "Shinto" itself isn't so much a factor in the presumed lack of sparring since it existed before aikido did. You're probably right that Oomotokyo influenced aikido to a large degree (via Osensei); my only question is how that presumably took place. Osensei was involved in Oomotokyo during the 20's and 30's when "aikido" was still more "hard" wasn't he?
Take care, and sorry for straying off topic.
Matt

[salim]

Ron, thanks for the clarification on randori! I find I often develop a sense of certain terminology which is close, but not quite correct, to the actual meaning. I think I may be thinking of "shiai" but I'm not yet positive of that.

Salim, thanks for the bit of history. You've clearly looked it up more than I have. My only real point was that "Shinto" itself isn't so much a factor in the presumed lack of sparring since it existed before aikido did. You're probably right that Oomotokyo influenced aikido to a large degree (via Osensei); my only question is how that presumably took place. Osensei was involved in Oomotokyo during the 20's and 30's when "aikido" was still more "hard" wasn't he?
Take care, and sorry for straying off topic.
Matt

It is commonly thought that Ueshiba's increasing attachment to pacifism in later years and belief that Aikido should be an "art of peace" were inspired by his involvement with the sect.

Ueshiba met Onisaburo Deguchi around 1920, research suggest that over the years, perhaps a 15 to 20 year period there was a natural progression toward pacifism, due to the teachings of Omoto religion. Ueshiba went through sort of, Aikido metamorphosed. The combative nature of the original Aikido was changed to meet the needs of Ueshiba's religious beliefs.

It's true that the early Aikido methods maintain some of it's combativeness. This was gradually reduced to pacifism.
The increase pressure from the Japanese government to remove combat arts from Japan greatly influenced all Japanese arts during this time. It was seen as a display of defiance toward government control of the society at large.

[wildaikido]

Hello All,

As a Yoseikan Aikidoka I feel I can contribute.

First the clip above is not Yoseikan Aikido, it is Yoseikan Budo of Hiroo Mochizuki.

In Yoseikan we have Shiai, combat practice, which could be used to mean "competition" but would be classified as sparing. Our Jiyu Randori, which would be more in line with what would be considered sparring in karate for example. Here uke attacks in any way, and always resists tori. For this reason things tend to end up on the floor with uke and tori grappling. This is identical to the randori in Judo.

Our shiai is a competitive randori, which was never meant to be organised to formal competitions that Yoseikan Budo now have, as Judo was never meant to be part of the Olympics. Here the practitioners decide on scoring and rules and then compete. This could be with knifes and batons, or hand to hand like judo, scoring with a clean throw or a pin.

Now from that, Yoseikan Aikido includes all Judo ne waza, ground fighting techniques. Even the old techniques that are no longer in Judo, such as leg locks are in Yoseikan Aikido. Hence, our ground fighting is comparable to BJJ. So the compatibility that is being discussed between Aikido and BJJ, already exists in Yoseikan Aikido.

Regards,

[salim]

Hello All,

As a Yoseikan Aikidoka I feel I can contribute.

First the clip above is not Yoseikan Aikido, it is Yoseikan Budo of Hiroo Mochizuki.

In Yoseikan we have Shiai, combat practice, which could be used to mean "competition" but would be classified as sparing. Our Jiyu Randori, which would be more in line with what would be considered sparring in karate for example. Here uke attacks in any way, and always resists tori. For this reason things tend to end up on the floor with uke and tori grappling. This is identical to the randori in Judo.

Our shiai is a competitive randori, which was never meant to be organised to formal competitions that Yoseikan Budo now have, as Judo was never meant to be part of the Olympics. Here the practitioners decide on scoring and rules and then compete. This could be with knifes and batons, or hand to hand like judo, scoring with a clean throw or a pin.

Now from that, Yoseikan Aikido includes all Judo ne waza, ground fighting techniques. Even the old techniques that are no longer in Judo, such as leg locks are in Yoseikan Aikido. Hence, our ground fighting is comparable to BJJ. So the compatibility that is being discussed between Aikido and BJJ, already exists in Yoseikan Aikido.

Regards,

I wish there was a Yoseikan dojo in Raleigh, North Carolina. Yoseikan Aikido is the best Aikido.

[wildaikido]

I wish there was a Yoseikan dojo in Raleigh, North Carolina. Yoseikan Aikido is the best Aikido.

This is the closest

North Carolina Yoseikan Budo
220 North Poston Street, Shelby, North Carolina USA 28150
Tel: (704) 472-0944
Teacher: Sensei Yves Boudreau

Thank you for making the statement about Yoseikan, but it is a very subjective comment. I think for me, now, at my age, yes, Yoseikan is the best school of Aikido for me. Maybe one day, when I am older I might have a different view of things. Look at O'Sensei, his Aikido evolved through his whole life, as did Mochizuki Kancho's Aikido.

Regards,

[gregg block]

On a related note, here's an interesting video of a BJJ guy sparring with an Aikido guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ny3yZitAFU

First of all. I didnt see any Aikido from the "black belt" in this video. At least not the kind of Aikido I'm use to seeing. Secondly I think a random guy off the street would stand a pretty good chance of putting a beat down on either of these two. I guess the white belt could claim inexperience. how sad!

[Daniel Ranger-Holt]

Interesting, i've recently been seriously thinking about possibly cross training. I've been practicing Aikido now for over a year three times a week usually without fail. And was sniffing around Wing Chun then gradually considered BJJ after i learnt more about it. Then i come to this forum for the first time in almost a year and its the first topic in the general forum i see.

Personally i was recently thinking about the practicalities of Aikido, using it in a real street fight situation. It this real thought into it which made me consider something else to compliment my Aikido training. I took up Aikido not for the spiritual aspect, but for self defence.

Even though it seems to me Aikido has the worst reputation when it comes to using it in a real situation. All the arts of course have their disadvantages BJJ has a fair few i can think of in a real street pub brawl envioronment. Im still debating whether to just stick with my Aikido, a 3rd dan at my dojo shows us an Aikido that seems very practical, a lot more solid than a lot of Aikido i've seen online etc.

But if i had the time i think i would attend BJJ twice a week for at least 6 months a year, if there was a dojo near me. (Im in the south east) But at the moment i've put so much into Aikido, even though its only a year and a half or so i have put a lot of time in. I want to see how i feel in a year or so. But BJJ does keep calling!

[salim]

Perhaps Yoseikan Aikido will solve the dilemma. It already contains some of the BJJ methods along with Judo throws. It's really a good combination for self defense.

Others and myself feel the same way that you do. Really we are not interested in the religious aspects of Aikido and want to learn self defense only.

[salim]

This is the closest

North Carolina Yoseikan Budo
220 North Poston Street, Shelby, North Carolina USA 28150
Tel: (704) 472-0944
Teacher: Sensei Yves Boudreau

Thank you for making the statement about Yoseikan, but it is a very subjective comment. I think for me, now, at my age, yes, Yoseikan is the best school of Aikido for me. Maybe one day, when I am older I might have a different view of things. Look at O'Sensei, his Aikido evolved through his whole life, as did Mochizuki Kancho's Aikido.

Regards,

Thank you. I'll have to visit this dojo, although it's several hours from Raleigh area.

[deepsoup]

Interesting, i've recently been seriously thinking about possibly cross training.

You might find it worth your while to seek out a Yoshinkan instructor not a million miles from where you are, by the name of Gadi Shorr. He's a 5th dan graduate of the (in)famous Yoshinkan Senshusei course who also has a great deal of experience of BJJ. He practices and teaches somewhere in Hertfordshire, Watford I think. He's an excellent teacher and a thoroughly good egg, worth a visit perhaps.

[Daniel Ranger-Holt]

You might find it worth your while to seek out a Yoshinkan instructor not a million miles from where you are, by the name of Gadi Shorr. He's a 5th dan graduate of the (in)famous Yoshinkan Senshusei course who also has a great deal of experience of BJJ. He practices and teaches somewhere in Hertfordshire, Watford I think. He's an excellent teacher and a thoroughly good egg, worth a visit perhaps.

Thats great, thank you i will give the name a google, i would have some questions for him actually. I worry if my problem is my patience. I guess after the time i put in i want to feel like i can defend myself competently, but i'll never know until the time comes.

I havent had a fight in 12 years (when i was at school) i don't see why that has to change. I jus want to know if i can avoid fighting effectively (so use my Aikido) if it was to happen, otherwise i'd do something else that will teach me to end a conflict, but i see nothing as unique as Aikido in this particular way of thought, ending conflict peacfully....which tells me i should jus stick with it.

Im a big dude i dont want to smack someone, anyone, the thought of injuring someone isn't really for me. Why i took Aikido up in the first place. Maybe im answering my own question...stick with Aikido :rolleyes: Who knows, i love the choice though.

[wildaikido]

Even though it seems to me Aikido has the worst reputation when it comes to using it in a real situation.

This is a sad fact, but all I need to know is that when push comes to shove, I am confident that MY Aikido will work for me.

In the two self defence situations I have been in, my Aikido worked great, just big haymakers (over telegraphed hooks) and some bad kicks, no problems all I had to do was block the attacks. With the second one, I was going to take the guy down, but security turned up, so I let them deal with him.

To me, the mat work in Yoseikan is not part of self defence, but dealing with a trained opponent. Having said that, one of the other students in our class (when he was a beginner) got jumped by two guys and he did a sweep to throw one of the guys, but got pulled down to the ground. Luckily a guy pulled up in his car and scared the two guys off, other wise he would not have known what to do. This is why in my training, I will train ne waza with everyone, even beginners. In a self defence situation it is less likely you will use it, but if someone pulls you down, you have to get them off you quick to deal with the next guy. This is where one on one ground work can complement a multiple opponent art like Aikido.

I believe there are three levels to Aikido, basics, self defence, and combat. Here I us combat to mean defending against a trained attacker in some thing like a protection senario (hence running is not an option). This is where the addition of a totally resistant uke in Yoseikan means we get real experience. Personally I believe that cooperation is needed, but only for basics. After that, uke should resist, he should committee to the attack, like you would get in a self defence situation, but he should resist after that, if he can. I think other styles of Aikido tend to emphasis the cooperation to much, this results in beautiful techniques, but no practical experience.

Regards,

[deepsoup]

This is where the addition of a totally resistant uke in Yoseikan means we get real experience. Personally I believe that cooperation is needed, but only for basics. After that, uke should resist, he should committee to the attack, like you would get in a self defence situation, but he should resist after that, if he can.

I'm curious about those clips above. Its very pretty to watch, in a way that shiai usually isn't (in judo or Shodokan aikido). Also there doesn't appear to be a mat referee. Do you know what the rules are in that kind of competition? There doesn't seem to be 'full resistance' going on there, more a kind of hikitategeiko. (A kind of partial resistance randori, 'cooperative competition' if you like.)

I wouldn't be so sure about characterising a 'self defence situation' as one in which there's a committed attack - feints, exploratory jabs and sneak attacks are equally likely I'd have thought.

Sean
x

[wildaikido]

I'm curious about those clips above. Its very pretty to watch, in a way that shiai usually isn't (in judo or Shodokan aikido). Also there doesn't appear to be a mat referee. Do you know what the rules are in that kind of competition? There doesn't seem to be 'full resistance' going on there, more a kind of hikitategeiko. (A kind of partial resistance randori, 'cooperative competition' if you like.)

I wouldn't be so sure about characterising a 'self defence situation' as one in which there's a committed attack - feints, exploratory jabs and sneak attacks are equally likely I'd have thought.

Sean
x

Hi Sean,

I have no idea about the competition that is in Yoseikan Budo, all I know is Mochizuki Kancho agreed with Jigoro Kano, that competition was an effective means to test your level of ability. But competition should not be organised, which could lead to the emergence of a supreme grand champion... In Yoseikan Aikido we still strive for a balance, you and your partner, not you and your opponent!

About that youtube clip I stated that it was Yoseikan Budo of Hiroo Mochizuki, and it does indeed look like a demonstration and not shiai. You are correct, all shiai will look messy, and this is how I would imaging other styles of Aikido would describe Yoseikan at high levels. Where I would describe some styles of Aikido as very pretty at high levels.

If someone is proficient at the level of feinting and leading with jabs to test your defence, they are not trying to "attack you" they are "fighting you" hence I PERSONALLY don't consider it self defence, to me it is combat. But that is why I teach, kihon, self defence, and combat applications of techniques.

Regards,

[salim]

Hi Sean,

I have no idea about the competition that is in Yoseikan Budo, all I know is Mochizuki Kancho agreed with Jigoro Kano, that competition was an effective means to test your level of ability. But competition should not be organised, which could lead to the emergence of a supreme grand champion... In Yoseikan Aikido we still strive for a balance, you and your partner, not you and your opponent!

About that youtube clip I stated that it was Yoseikan Budo of Hiroo Mochizuki, and it does indeed look like a demonstration and not shiai. You are correct, all shiai will look messy, and this is how I would imaging other styles of Aikido would describe Yoseikan at high levels. Where I would describe some styles of Aikido as very pretty at high levels.

If someone is proficient at the level of feinting and leading with jabs to test your defence, they are not trying to "attack you" they are "fighting you" hence I PERSONALLY don't consider it self defence, to me it is combat. But that is why I teach, kihon, self defence, and combat applications of techniques.

Regards,

Love your approach and wish your mindset was more common among the general Aikidoist. It definitely would bring about better training for self defense. The realities of self defense are often over shadow with romanticism of Aikido.

[wildaikido]

Love your approach and wish your mindset was more common among the general Aikidoist. It definitely would bring about better training for self defense. The realities of self defense are often over shadow with romanticism of Aikido.

This is a little bit of a generalisation. I think there are lots of good Aikidoka out there, they are just few and far between. Look at the Yoshinkan, if you go through the senshusei course, you deserve your shodan in a year.

However, the vast amount of @#$% on youtube says that there are a lot of people who have no Budo in there Aikido.

I think it is up to the students of Aikido, student choose the teacher, and you can't teach with out students. I found people I can respect, and who know their stuff, and I go out of my way if I have to seek out a teacher. Don't just settle for the guy down the road, unless he is the one.

Regards,

[salim]

This is a little bit of a generalisation. I think there are lots of good Aikidoka out there, they are just few and far between. Look at the Yoshinkan, if you go through the senshusei course, you deserve your shodan in a year.

However, the vast amount of @#$% on youtube says that there are a lot of people who have no Budo in there Aikido.

I think it is up to the students of Aikido, student choose the teacher, and you can't teach with out students. I found people I can respect, and who know their stuff, and I go out of my way if I have to seek out a teacher. Don't just settle for the guy down the road, unless he is the one.

Regards,

Oops, you're right, I should've been more specific. I agree with you regarding the majority of the @/*%$E@ that you see on youtube.
Although reading some Aikido sites and blogs you never here the importance of self defense being of great importance, definitely not the focus.

Yes, Yoseikan, Yoshikhan and Shodokan Aikido bring more focus towards self defense, but most Aikidoist either don't know they exist or they are really not respected in the Aikido world due to there heavy focus of combat and self defense.

The Aikikai organization is what most Aikidoist recognize as Aikido, and everything else is not Aikido really. It's a mentality that's the problem. Pacifism is what the Aikikai organizations preach as being Aikido, thus what people perceive as Aikido. So if it does not have the roots of pacifism then is not Aikido, which is totally incorrect.
The original Aikido was combat and for self defense.

[wildaikido]

Oops, you're right, I should've been more specific. I agree with you regarding the majority of the @/*%$E@ that you see on youtube.
Although reading some Aikido sites and blogs you never here the importance of self defense being of great importance, definitely not the focus.

That's were I am lucky, since I am at a Self Defence School. Hence the aim of our Aikido is self defence.

Yes, Yoseikan, Yoshikhan and Shodokan Aikido bring more focus towards self defense, but most Aikidoist either don't know they exist or they are really not respected in the Aikido world due to there heavy focus of combat and self defense.

Well fair is fair, I don't respect some in the Aikikai, of Ki Society (disclaimer, I said SOME, and it is a joke). The facts speak for themselves. O'Sensei spent most of his time in Iwama, not at hombu. Hombu was mostly directed by Kisshomaru and Tohei, and both men had very different ideas about Aikido. This fact is seen in their training and teaching.

The Aikikai organization is what most Aikidoist recognize as Aikido, and everything else is not Aikido really. It's a mentality that's the problem. Pacifism is what the Aikikai organizations preach as being Aikido, thus what people perceive as Aikido. So if it does not have the roots of pacifism then is not Aikido, which is totally incorrect.
The original Aikido was combat and for self defense.

That is because it has the most members. But more followers does not make it the only Aikido school. I believe Mochizuki Kancho grasped the true concept of Budo. Someone said "for there to be peace, you must prepare for war." The conversation Mochizuki had with O'Sensei after he returned from Japan sums up what O'Sensei thought on the matter. He said that we must train to be strong, but we must not be concerned with winning. Mochizuki Kancho relates this to Darwinism, in that the strong survive and the weak don’t. This is also why Mochizuki Kancho promoted the fact that Jigoro Kano did not what his budo turned into an Olympic sport, since the idea of winning and losing is contrary to the principle of mutual welfare and prosperity.

At this point it is worth noting the definition of the term shiai, which Jigoro Kano used. He replaced the old kanji, "to the death" with his modern budo term "to try together". Hence the essence of competition (shiai) in Judo (and Aikido), should be for us to try our techniques together, but in a beneficial way. That is with a resisting partner to test us.

[salim]

At this point it is worth noting the definition of the term shiai, which Jigoro Kano used. He replaced the old kanji, "to the death" with his modern budo term "to try together". Hence the essence of competition (shiai) in Judo (and Aikido), should be for us to try our techniques together, but in a beneficial way. That is with a resisting partner to test us.[/QUOTE]

Good example of testing technique.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vSDyLY-KySo

[philippe willaume]

At this point it is worth noting the definition of the term shiai, which Jigoro Kano used. He replaced the old kanji, "to the death" with his modern budo term "to try together". Hence the essence of competition (shiai) in Judo (and Aikido), should be for us to try our techniques together, but in a beneficial way. That is with a resisting partner to test us.

Good example of testing technique.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vSDyLY-KySo[/QUOTE]
Hello
I do like that way of training, at least once and a while.
I do totally agree that sparing, in order to test technique should be done without completion (As in the Olympics judo understanding of competition).

But on the other hand, we need to be aware of the side effect of the rules and promotion of resistance when we use to spar.
It is very obvious with the weapons usage in that last video. Sparing will always be limited by and geared towards by rules that are being used.
This is not a reflection on the participant, the style, the weapon usage or the video in itself, it is a promotional video. Not a sparing video per say but it helps to illustrate my point.

Each time we have the two swords/sticks versus the two handed sword, the practitioner accept a debilitating or killing blow in order to get his technique in.

There seems to be no entering strategy as far as weapon are concerned, (funnily enough this not really the case with open hands), ie they do entrer without concerne for their own safety hence there is no control of the opponent option and they are doing the cardinal sin to extend their hands to break the distance, offering a massive one time counter to your opponent. The best you can expect from entry like that is a double kill.

It is not bad or wrong to spar like that (discounting hands/arm shot or ignoring counters to the entrance), the logic behind it being that it enable the fight to develops pass the sniping/jockeying for position.
But you need to be aware that you are bypassing something that will have definitive consequences in the actual usage of the weapon.

So we need to bear in mind if is it a realistic or meaningful resistance and what we are getting from the resistance

[Daniel Ranger-Holt]

but if someone pulls you down, you have to get them off you quick to deal with the next guy. This is where one on one ground work can complement a multiple opponent art like Aikido.



Ive given this a lot of thought as well, and i think i need to try, at least try BJJ solidly for about 6 months or so, just to see how i feel it could compliment my Aikido. If i got took down, i would have no idea what to do, and with over a year three times a week of training for what i joined Aikido for Self Defence, not knowing what do do at all if i go down isn't good enough. Obviously i wouldnt want to fight, let alone go down, but if i do? It's just a case of finding BJJ in particular school near me..time for some googling.

However the idea of giving up one for the other wouldnt make sense. Aikido will give me some chance against more than one person, and a grappling art would help me if i go down. My Aikido wouldnt be good enough for me to avoid possibly going down in a fight for a good 5 or so years? thats too long IMO i would feel comfortable knowing what to do now. In both arts im not going to be standing slugging it out, something i find brutal and uneeded.

I am going to be on the doors in a few months, if all goes to plan, im just thinking sensibly. After reading through a LOT of posts here at Aikiweb, theres seems to be more people practicing Aikido for some other reason, spirituality, improving your inner peace etc other than self defence...im starting to feel ALONE :straightf

I would love to speak to someone who has purely Aikido and BJJ expierience though. And no other arts. Would have a lot of questions for them.

[grondahl]

I am going to be on the doors in a few months, if all goes to plan, im just thinking sensibly. After reading through a LOT of posts here at Aikiweb, theres seems to be more people practicing Aikido for some other reason, spirituality, improving your inner peace etc other than self defence...im starting to feel ALONE :straightf
.

How do you define "self defence"?

[Daniel Ranger-Holt]

How do you define "self defence"?

I think you probably know what i mean by self defence, and ive touched a nerve somewhere? didn't intend to IF i did. Look, i'm in an Aikido forum, talking about me learning Aikido for self defence. So it should be fairly obvious what i mean by self defence.

Not running to the phonebox, or carrying a can of pepper spray, carrying a riot sheild etc, smiling at an attacker about to crack me one in the face or running tackle me or the "best self defence is carry a gun" zzzz im not interested in that kind of talk myself, personally.

Im talking about confidently being able to do something effective against someone who attacks me, without hurting anyone needlessly, i dont want to face the law or even the possibillity of going to jail so no punching, striking, etc..

But holding someone till they get the message or deflecting them off me till they get the message is what im looking for. On and off the ground. Im not looking to defeat anyone or any martial artist, because if anyone is good enough, or better than you, its over. But as an average guy with no fighting skills or insticts etc, id like to feel i could do something confidently...

Which is why i am considering BJJ if i find somewhere near me, and it doesnt overlap my Aikido.

[wildaikido]

But holding someone till they get the message or deflecting them off me till they get the message is what im looking for. On and off the ground. Im not looking to defeat anyone or any martial artist, because if anyone is good enough, or better than you, its over. But as an average guy with no fighting skills or insticts etc, id like to feel i could do something confidently.
This is my definition of self defence. The person must be untrained or you are not defending yourself. If you "defend yourself" against a trained attacker, he will win, as he is attacking, and you are defending! If he is trained you must fight him (If you have not choice, my example would be defending my wife and kids). Therefore this comes under the branch of combat.

I recommend judo. If you can find a good judo instructor, who will teach you techniques and is not focused on competition, this will compliment anyone’s Aikido very well. I can only imaging there are a few people like this in England. A lot of the old old great went through England (Tani), and some old great (Abe).

Regards,

[philippe willaume]

Hello
It is really an aside but I think that to be fair if the aim is self defence or self protection you need a striking art and a grappling art. So instead of aikido and BJJ, I would do a striking art and aikido or a striking art and BJJ. (well the BJJ “self defence” side)

All self defence relies on awareness, and that is the stuff that takes the longest time to develop.
I will use BJJ in case of a one to one and aikido when there is several of them is great on paper, however it realise totally on you being aware that there is several of them.
All the point of them being several, is that one of them can blind side you which implies making you believe that it is a one on one is an option.
If you have enough experience, you will be able to pull it off consistently but BJJ and aikido on their distinct value will not increase your awareness more than spending the same amount of time doing only aikido or only BJJ.

Other than one vs one when weapons are not accessed, Going to the ground suck in biblical proportion.
If that is no likely case for you, spending time doing ground works is not a very productive way to spend your time.
It is bit of a sweeping example but if you are a Bouncer/doorman or a woman, ground works does make lots of sense. One vs one can happens a significant % of the possible encounters.

If you are a member of the general public or working in protection (other than doorman) you are more likely to be in a one vs several or several vs several, so ground work is not that attractive of a proposition.

What I just said is absolutely not equivalent to say that BJJ, MMA or any other combat sports are useless in self defence.
In fact they can be quite useful, you are more prepared you have developed a level of awareness, and in good physical condition one v one are your bread and butter, so it can compensate for surprise, you are used to confrontation and you with enough awareness you can turn a one v several into a one v one to give you an options to flee.
As well, aikido in a several vs one situation does not make it good situation, it just make it marginally less worse.

[Daniel Ranger-Holt]

This is my definition of self defence. The person must be untrained or you are not defending yourself.

Hmm i understand your definition but not sure if i agree with it fully. For example i've never been in a street fight in my life. By street fight i mean...my personal definition is...two people fighting for whatever reason, none of them skilled in any arts, just punching kicking human scrapping. But i know a lot of people around my area get into "scraps" every weekend after they have been out drinking or just for a laugh. Random drunks who've had more than one fight...so have some idea what happens, even its a very very basic idea, in that sence they have had more training then me. Mr NO fight at all.

Now, me, i havent had any fights since school, when i was 16 im 28 now. So if i come up against any of the type of people i describe above, i would class that as me defending myself, because in a way they are trained in some form of fighting, as low down the chain as it may be...me, i am not, at all. I may be 5'11 and a big wide dude, but...these people have more expierience than me, and as far as on the street encounters go i respect them (if thats the right word).

Therefore i would say if i face anyone like that, personally, to me...thats self defence. Whereas you say if they are attacking but are untrained, you are not defending yourself? respectfully and humbly i disagree.

[wildaikido]

Hello
It is really an aside but I think that to be fair if the aim is self defence or self protection you need a striking art and a grappling art. So instead of aikido and BJJ, I would do a striking art and aikido or a striking art and BJJ. (well the BJJ "self defence" side)

Strange! My Aikido is a striking art, I believe O'Sensei's Aikido was a striking art!

Regards,

[wildaikido]

Therefore i would say if i face anyone like that, personally, to me...thats self defence. Whereas you say if they are attacking but are untrained, you are not defending yourself? respectfully and humbly i disagree.

No, if they are UNTRAINED and ATTACKING it is self defence. If they are TRAINED and attacking, the mentality of defending will not be enough, you must FIGHT.

That is how I differentiate them; it is in the mental attitude, the approach, and the tactics.

A trained person attacking will overwhelm you if you "defend", you must have the superior spirit!

Regards,

[Daniel Ranger-Holt]

Hello
It is bit of a sweeping example but if you are a Bouncer/doorman or a woman, ground works does make lots of sense. One vs one can happens a significant % of the possible encounters.

If you are a member of the general public or working in protection (other than doorman) you are more likely to be in a one vs several or several vs several, so ground work is not that attractive of a proposition.


Thanks Philippe! its why i am considering BJJ. in reality of course some people suggest to me Aikido and Judo, Aikido and Wing Chun even, some have said Aikido and Sambo (something i havent looked into really) So everyone has something different, my personal so far...most sensible crosstrain option for me would be BJJ i think. If my Aikido taught me ground work i feel i would have no need, but it doesn't i would feel exposed. So it still seems like some kind of ground control would be good for me...but as i say, everyone says something different to cross train with. I guess its best to look into them all but actively try the one i feel would suit me personally. But its a interesting discussion, thanks guys.

I will be back later to contribute, my daughter is dragging me off the pc to the park :p

Cheers.

[thomanil]

Strange! My Aikido is a striking art, I believe O'Sensei's Aikido was a striking art!
Regards,

Good for you! Unfortunately, not every dojo has a strong focus on delivering and defending against functional strikes. If this is the case for Daniel, then I think there's great value for him in crosstraining at least a little in boxing/kickboxing/muay thai; basically any straight forward striking art where you have to deal with actually getting hit in the face on a regular basis. :)

[salim]

Thanks Philippe! its why i am considering BJJ. in reality of course some people suggest to me Aikido and Judo, Aikido and Wing Chun even, some have said Aikido and Sambo (something i havent looked into really) So everyone has something different, my personal so far...most sensible crosstrain option for me would be BJJ i think. If my Aikido taught me ground work i feel i would have no need, but it doesn't i would feel exposed. So it still seems like some kind of ground control would be good for me...but as i say, everyone says something different to cross train with. I guess its best to look into them all but actively try the one i feel would suit me personally. But its a interesting discussion, thanks guys.

I will be back later to contribute, my daughter is dragging me off the pc to the park :p

Cheers.

You are not alone. I feel the same way. I'm more interested in self defense and the common mentality among most Aikidoist is spirituality or some deep inner meaning, which I have no interest. I'm not interest in Shinto Oomoto in the least bit and it's really a turn off to here about religion and Aikido mixing. I already have religion and don't want to here about philosophical religious principles.

[philippe willaume]

I
Not running to the phonebox, or carrying a can of pepper spray, carrying a riot sheild etc, smiling at an attacker about to crack me one in the face or running tackle me or the "best self defence is carry a gun" zzzz im not interested in that kind of talk myself, personally.

Im talking about confidently being able to do something effective against someone who attacks me, without hurting anyone needlessly, i dont want to face the law or even the possibillity of going to jail so no punching, striking, etc..
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Hello Daniel,
It really deepens of what job you are doing but using aikido has about the same chance of putting you into jail than striking or punching.

In most western country, it is not what you did but why you did it that will matter as far as the law is concerned.
Of course, our response needs to be proportionate to the threat but we have ruled out weapons in the question, so it has little bearing here.

You are using the example of pinning someone, or deflecting someone until they get the message.
By not removing your self, you de facto engage in a consensual fight. In most countries, the law expect you to get away from trouble when possible.
You can have good reason not to remove yourself, like presence of witness, closed circuit camera, and lighted area and so on. That is what is going to keep you out of trouble not the usage of aikido (in that case).

Hence you will need to be able to answer why you keep deflecting the guy instead of going away.

Law enforcement usually tends to assume that the guy that has the upper hand was the instigator of the fight. at the best it is going to be 50-50.

So pinning him may be a solution, but that he was the instigator still has to be demonstrated.


But holding someone till they get the message or deflecting them off me till they get the message is what im looking for. On and off the ground. Im not looking to defeat anyone or any martial artist, because if anyone is good enough, or better than you, its over. But as an average guy with no fighting skills or insticts etc, id like to feel I could do something confidently...

Which is why i am considering BJJ if i find somewhere near me, and it doesnt overlap my Aikido.
I think this is the biggest misconception about self defence/self protection.

It is not very likely to be a booting match or a challenge.
If it is the case, you are very likely to be able to walk away from it. Unless confronted with someone relatively drunk and without any mates in the same states (but in that case any martial art or combat sport will do, bearing in mind the reasonable force).

How possible and at what frequency depends where you are living.

It is very likely to be "Martial" almost in the etymological meaning of the word.
Your opponent (s) , like you will be, without fighting skills or instincts so they will try to get as many chance on their side before it starts. (If they have fighting skill, they will want to reduce your response time to the minimum).
Basically they/he will try to break the distance and capture you attention.

Basically it is much more likely to kick in at talking range than with “ oy, you, me, now on the common, handbag at two paces

[philippe willaume]

Strange! My Aikido is a striking art, I believe O'Sensei's Aikido was a striking art!

Regards,
well mine as well, however it is not the case for all us. :-)

[philippe willaume]

You are not alone. I feel the same way. I'm more interested in self defense and the common mentality among most Aikidoist is spirituality or some deep inner meaning, which I have no interest. I'm not interest in Shinto Oomoto in the least bit and it's really a turn off to here about religion and Aikido mixing. I already have religion and don't want to here about philosophical religious principles.

I would argue that take down and pin in aikido constitute as much ground work as reasonably possible in a multy opponent environment.
That seems the to be the same in medieval European wrestling, outside judicial duel, several vs several (or one vs several), usually with weapons availiabe, seems to have been the most likely situation for them as well.

PS and they say as well that if you (being knights in that occurrence), are attacked by 4 or 6 peasants, running away is the best option….(and that there is no shame to do it)

[wildaikido]

I can garantee if you do something like a wrist twsit (Kote Gaeshi) on me (any throw), and I go down, you will not pin me with an Aikikai based pin. You want even turn me over! Now I am trained and will resist. Once I am on the floor, I will not let go of you. Start hitting or kicking, your coming down to the floor with me.

So from here, what do you plan to do when "my" friends are coming for you?

[Aiki1]

I would love to speak to someone who has purely Aikido and BJJ expierience though. And no other arts. Would have a lot of questions for them.

I have taught Aikido for 25 years, and studied BJJ privately with the guy who taught for Rickson, for a few years. I have studied other stuff over the years, but not for a while now. Aikido is my art, but I love BJJ and have incorporated just the ground escapes into my style. Not any submissions, but how to get out/away.

[Daniel Ranger-Holt]

Hmmm, ok, i dont think im explaining myself very well. Surely having some kind of grappling ability is a plus, if i am looking for straight self defence as opposed to having none.

Im not looking to be the supreme martial artist, im just saying if a confrontation was to go to the ground, with the Aikido training i am receiving i wouldnt know what to do. Which is the same for most Aikidoka?

This is why having some idea what to do on the ground would be to my advantage. Im not talking about an arm pin on a non resisting opponent i mean a scrabbling unco-operative brawler.

In reality i probably wont cross train, one the expense, two i wouldn't want to do anything unless i could do it twice a week. That would mean four nights a week martial arts, a daughter i have three days a week, and a demanding girlfriend. In reality i wouldnt really be able to fit it in, unless the classes were convienient.

Maybe training on how to not go down if grappled is what i would need. But still BJJ looks like the best option IF i was to cross train.

Phillipe can you explain my mis conception about self defense because i didn't understand what it was, cheers.

Good discussion.

[Daniel Ranger-Holt]

Aikido is my art, but I love BJJ and have incorporated just the ground escapes into my style. Not any submissions, but how to get out/away.

This is the man i need to speak to...HOW ABOUT TEACHING ME :) Right im in the UK Luron...how far is that from you. :straightf Seriously ypu understand where i'm going though? How to escape evade a grappling situation would be a perfect addition to my Aikido training i personally feel.

If you don't midn me asking, After 20 or so years of Aikido training how confident would you feel you would have been on the ground without that additional BJJ training, if you can answer that question.

[Aiki1]

This is the man i need to speak to...HOW ABOUT TEACHING ME :) Right im in the UK Luron...how far is that from you. :straightf Seriously you understand where i'm going though? How to escape evade a grappling situation would be a perfect addition to my Aikido training i personally feel.

If you don't mind me asking, After 20 or so years of Aikido training how confident would you feel you would have been on the ground without that additional BJJ training, if you can answer that question.