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Mike_SMD
08-15-2007, 07:17 PM
Hi folks!
I'm off to a weapons focused class in a few moments but I was thinking today and after my experiences getting 'back in the saddle' the old gears have been turning like mad...

And I've been chewing on something.

I think that BJJ and Aikido (the two biggest of the polar opposites commonly compared in the us vs them realm of the internet) are actually more alike than different. Indeed, given the similarity of root and movements I'm prepared to state that as a point of fact they're actually damn near the same thing. Physically at least... although I'm sure the philosophical approaches of both vary more by club than anything else.

I don't have time to go into it much more right now, but rest assured that I will if pushed. There's a few key pinch points in my reasoning that will need some explaining... maybe... though even then we'll just have to see.

I find this interesting mostly due to the fact that Aikido is billed as a generally useless martial art for self defense (other folk's words - not mine) while BJJ and similar styles get the media blitz for their so-called 'deadly' capabilities.

Buuuuuuuuut...
Marketing spin doesn't generate a reality.

Discuss!

Mike.

Adam Alexander
08-15-2007, 07:29 PM
At one time, seeing what BJJers said on this site, being less developed technically/theoretically than I am now and seeing clips of it, could see that they were very similar.

However, now that I've come further along in my technical/theoretical understanding of aikido, I no longer believe they're any more similar than any other two arts. They share a lot, but all do.

People saying one's superior over the other? I've adopted the idea that if I need to prove it, I'll show up at your place. If you need to prove it, you'll show up at mine. Everything else is just talk...empty, empty talk.

CNYMike
08-15-2007, 09:13 PM
.... I think that BJJ and Aikido (the two biggest of the polar opposites commonly compared in the us vs them realm of the internet) are actually more alike than different. Indeed, given the similarity of root and movements I'm prepared to state that as a point of fact they're actually damn near the same thing .....

I think the best way to investigate this (assuming you're not doing so already) would be to crosstrain in BJJ --- go at least once a week while continuing in Aikido. In a year to two, see how you look at them.

Aikibu
08-15-2007, 09:48 PM
They Compliment each other well. :)

William Hazen

Budd
08-15-2007, 10:28 PM
They Compliment each other well. :)


Seconded. Assuming the person training has the right attitude ;)

Mike_SMD
08-15-2007, 10:45 PM
Yeah, I'm going to agree totally here... it's not so much a compliment as it is an outright meshing as the scale of the distance of conflict decreases. Circles are circles after all.

Roast in the oven.
Talk more later.

Though...
The 'if I have to prove it I'll show up at your house' is sort of silly, hell yeah things have to be proven! Certainly though there's always a chance to do so with more sharing and less conflict in mind...?

Maybe I missed your meaning though, anyway I can *feel* my partner glaring at me right through the kitchen wall.... sooooo...

Take care,

Mike.

Roman Kremianski
08-15-2007, 10:54 PM
When I started BJJ I found it surprisingly paralleled Aikido. Center of gravity concepts, relaxation, breathing, and of course, it actually made it possible to over come a larger opponent without hurting him.

Something I found was too hard for me in Aikido.

It added a whole new dimension to my training. It was easy staying relaxed on my feet with a compliant uke, but quite the opposite while on my back with a 60lb heavier guy on me trying to put some hurting on. Many non-BJJers don't appreciate the mind state you have to work your way up to in order to stay relaxed in bad positions. I mean, my first month I was squirming like a ferret. Still do with people more experienced than me.

Aristeia
08-16-2007, 12:51 AM
some of us have been saying they are strategically almost identical for some time. My BJJ coach once mentioned he was surprised I copped flak from some in the aikikido community as he would have thought them to be very similar.

I suspect like adam/jean/dale that any two arts one studieds you would tend to notice similarities, but I find them particularly striking in bjj/aikido. I still often find myself using aikido terms when coachingh bjj....

deepsoup
08-16-2007, 04:22 AM
Well of course Aikido and BJJ are compatable - they're both basically just Judo after all!
<hides under desk>
:)

Drew Mailman
08-16-2007, 08:23 AM
I wish there was a BJJ school worth a damn in my town... Oh well.

Ron Tisdale
08-16-2007, 09:19 AM
Maybe I missed your meaning though, anyway I can *feel* my partner glaring at me right through the kitchen wall.... sooooo...

Now THAT is aikido! :D

B,
R

Basia Halliop
08-17-2007, 05:26 PM
I think that BJJ and Aikido (the two biggest of the polar opposites commonly compared in the us vs them realm of the internet) are actually more alike than different.

I wonder if the fact that two things are contrasted so often is really evidence of their being polar opposites: it could also be a sign that there's enough overlap in the people who do them to find people who know enough about both to have a strong opinion on both. Don't we often argue more with neighbours then with those who are really far from our universe?

Kevin Wilbanks
08-17-2007, 06:46 PM
Well of course Aikido and BJJ are compatable - they're both basically just Judo after all!
<hides under desk>
:)

Actually, that's not far off. All three you mention descendants of Japanese Ju Jutsu with more specialized focus.

Mike_SMD
08-17-2007, 08:44 PM
(this in response to Basia's comment)

Very interesting observation...

If there wasn't enough overlap for us to at least *grasp* what the fundamentals of BJJ include we sure as heck wouldn't feel comfortable critiquing it.

Not often that I hear of Aikidoka being compared to the enthusiasts of Kalaripayit, now... is it...?

Though...
When I really dig into it...

-mumbles thoughtfully to self-

(don't mind the glibness, I like where you're going with this)

Take care,

Mike.

Aristeia
08-17-2007, 09:11 PM
If there wasn't enough overlap for us to at least *grasp* what the fundamentals of BJJ include we sure as heck wouldn't feel comfortable critiquing it.

You'd think so wouldn't you. And yet.....

Basia Halliop
08-18-2007, 03:01 PM
You'd think so wouldn't you. And yet.....

:lol

Probably all it takes is for people to _feel_ like they grasp something of it, even a little bit. When it comes to confidence in critiquing, perception of knowledge is even more important than actual knowledge, isn't it?

But I was thinking also just of the fact that it's something people in Aikido know exists (!) and hear about often enough to remember it exists (I don't know if the the same is true the other way around). Maybe there's even occasionally some sense that they have at least some common ground to bother comparing them at all.

Roman Kremianski
08-18-2007, 06:34 PM
On a related note, here's an interesting video of a BJJ guy sparring with an Aikido guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ny3yZitAFU

Budd
08-18-2007, 07:58 PM
I'm not usually one to claim that video snippets are worth much of anything, but I don't think either person came off particularly well - the aikido guy seemed to throw "cheap" strikes that weren't particularly effective, the bjj guy (a white belt) kept trying to pull guard until the end *grumbles*, when his o soto gari was successful, but he got rolled and the aikido guy held him in kesa gatame.

I'm not sure if they had agreed to a ruleset (the comments weren't clear), or if the bjj guy assumed the aikido guy would spar according to jits rules (which is what I would assume if I was crashing their class). The bjj guy claimed that the aikido guy was going for nut shots, eye gouges, etc., which I think is pretty much dirty pool unless you're attacked or the ruleset agrees upon is really "anything goes".

Thing is, everyone's got a belief system, everyone's got a plan (until they get hit) and most people already know everything anyway, so they don't usually take advantage of trying to learn something new. But if I'm a guest at someone else's class, I play by their "rules" - simple good manners.

Today's aikido guy that talks down on learning grappling will be tomorrow's bjj student trying to tell us how to "fix" aikido. Today's bjj guy that doesn't learn takedowns (or train how to "not" get taken down - yes - they are out there) will be tomorrow's wrestler/judoka that wants to "fix" bjj. Today's wrestler/judoka that doesn't think strikes are useful will be tomorrow's mma player looking to point out where each art has holes. Tomorrow's mma player might not ever become really "great" at any aspect of their game, but might focus on "lay and prey" stuff that works great in a cage, but not so much in the real world.

Basically, today's guy that already "knows the answer", will be tomorrow's guy telling the person using his "today answer" why he is wrong tomorrow, without realizing that even tomorrow, there might still be more he doesn't get.

In other words, never assume you have the answers, get out there and train with people that know things you don't. Keep researching, keep improving and don't be an asshole if you can help it.

Note to self: Periodically remind myself to take my own advice . . . ;)

Shannon Frye
08-18-2007, 08:12 PM
I think that the principals of both arts can be viewed as similar - the differences are fueled not by the differences in "styles", but in the differences of the people performing the art. Your "average" aikidoka is not a carbon copy of your "average" bjj student.

But I DO doubt that any bjj forum would ever admit having any similarity to aikido. Evolution is such a wonderful thing!

Roman Kremianski
08-18-2007, 10:30 PM
Today's bjj guy that doesn't learn takedowns (or train how to "not" get taken down - yes - they are out there) will be tomorrow's wrestler/judoka that wants to "fix" bjj.

No one in BJJ is interested in "fixing" BJJ. They would just train wrestling.

Your theories are interesting to read, but almost make it seem like you've never trained in either. Wrestlers/Judoka don't think strikes are useful? Do they not own a pair of human arms?

They called it mixed martial arts for a reason. Because it's just a collection of knowledge from different arts. Instead of fixing one thing or trying to make something "whole", people go else where for knowledge.

Sort of why I don't see the point of people arguing that things like sparring/groundwork/striking/insert anything here, etc should be introduced into Aikido. If you want it, there's a time and place to get it.

My opinion on the video: I thought the BJJ guy did a poor job. Not gonna go into detail, but he looked like he was deathly afraid of clinching the Aikidoka.:uch:

Roman Kremianski
08-18-2007, 10:46 PM
Not implying you don't train BJJ Budd, as I know you do. Do you just grapple or do MMA in general?

Aristeia
08-18-2007, 11:13 PM
My opinion on the video: I thought the BJJ guy did a poor job. agreed. much of the video also demonstrated the difficulty of introducing sparring into aikido. It was what happens when no one really wants to engage.

Budd
08-19-2007, 09:15 AM
No one in BJJ is interested in "fixing" BJJ. They would just train wrestling.:

Believe it or not, there are still folks out there that think bjj is the end-all, be-all for combat. Just like there may be aikido people out there that haven't trained to make their stuff work in a "live" environment.


Your theories are interesting to read, but almost make it seem like you've never trained in either. Wrestlers/Judoka don't think strikes are useful? Do they not own a pair of human arms?

Are my theories violating one of your (relatively new, I bet) belief systems?

I try not to buy into party lines/belief systems of anything just because other people do. You're mixing up my argument - I'm pointing out extreme cases (of what I consider dumb behavior) that later turns into more cases (of what I consider dumb behavior), just with a change in viewpoint.

Some Wrestlers/Judoka have had enough success with what they got (stuff strikes, clinch, takedown, finish) that they'll just say, "Strikes, why do I need to learn that?".

Sometimes, they are right (the athletes that are into compeition over combatives). In terms of actual conflict, the smart ones will know better. But then my original point was that being well-rounded was a good idea, only dumb people think they know everything.

They called it mixed martial arts for a reason. Because it's just a collection of knowledge from different arts. Instead of fixing one thing or trying to make something "whole", people go else where for knowledge.

Even mixed martial artists are subject to "gym/camp loyalty", which when used to propogate belief systems over training & development - can cause stagnation. I don't buy the argument that because one's training in mma, they automatically become exempt from this . . . The successful/smart ones know better (see previous point) . . . but . . .

Don't even get me started on how many are trying to latch onto the buzz term "mma" with how they train . . .

Sort of why I don't see the point of people arguing that things like sparring/groundwork/striking/insert anything here, etc should be introduced into Aikido. If you want it, there's a time and place to get it.

There's a difference between tacking on a form of practice that conflicts or isn't congruent with your training system/goals, versus applying base principles into various training paradigms. Sometimes it depends on whether training is principle versus technique-based, other times it depends on how "honestly" the principles are applied.

Budd
08-19-2007, 09:30 AM
Not implying you don't train BJJ Budd, as I know you do. Do you just grapple or do MMA in general?

I used to go play with MMA boys more, but these days, I pretty much just go periodically crash the local BJJ school and try to get a decent mix between gi and no-gi. No real interest in rank and tournaments. It's always fun to get the newbies that want to "teach" me how to do all the techniques while drilling, then see the change in their faces when we start to roll.

I've also got a buddy that boxes and I go play with him and his guys every once in a while.

I had some humorous attempts at kickboxing years ago in college, but I might get back into that type of training (I can always can use a laugh) just to put a thin patch of spackle on that hole and work out some kinks.

Thing is, even in different environments, I'm still applying MY core physical AIKIDO principles in those settings (irimi, irimitenkan, disrupt structure via connection by moving ME, etc.) - with varying degree of success, but it's still done with the main goal of making my overall aikido better.

'Course, there's a part of me that just likes to "bang". Reigning that side in is just another reason that I do aikido.

statisticool
08-19-2007, 09:53 AM
I never understood the "vs" part.

Have martial artists lost the goal of self defense against attacks in real life, and are now only interested in global martial arts instruction domination?

Roman Kremianski
08-19-2007, 09:55 AM
A bit confused. Do you just crash/play/throw down MMA/BJJ every so often, or do you dedicate 2-4 times a week on the mat for a committed period of time? I also meddled and sparred with friends during the time when I did Aikido exclusively, but everything changed once I committed to an MMA school and really started studying the aspects.

Budd
08-19-2007, 10:35 AM
Just to settle your confusion, these days I try to do formal BJJ once a week (mixing up gi vs. no-gi) and then seminars whenever possible. I work out with grapplers from wrestling, judo and sambo whenever possible. I have a base in boxing, judo, wrestling, sports karate (blecch) and humorous attempts at kickboxing (not my game, I know it, but still think there's benefit to training it). I try to brush up on these with other practitioners whenever possible, but am primarly committed with my dojo's aikido program (as my long term budo study).

I started training in martial sports when I was 5 (judo) and continued in one form (judo - wrestling - judo - wrestling - karate - wrestling) or another through college. I am now 32. I have different training goals than martial sports, but still recognize the skills they build and polish. I don't claim expertise in any of them, but still like to go play with people that are.

When I spar with people in specific martial sports, I usually already have some sort of a base in a version of their sport (if not their sport). So, depending on the sparring paradigm, I'm not going to backpedal from a clinch or takedown and don't mind trading hands and feet. In other words, I'll shin kick, jab, hook, bodylock, shoot, submit with the next guy. I'm not gonna try to tenkan, spin away from trouble or panic when things don't look like aikido.

Because each sport trains towards certain goals (even different gyms within the same sports - don't believe me? Go visit three different non-affilitated BJJ schools in one week), the degree with which they're congruent with how I train overall can sometimes throw me off. But it goes back to what Don Magee said (and I've already stolen this as a saying), when you're training a specific drill (no matter the art/style/sport), you work on the goals of that specific drill, regardless of what you "think" you know.

salim
08-19-2007, 07:16 PM
Very interesting thread and love to here people developing there marital arts skills. Interesting youtube clip. The Aikidoist looked pretty winded and I wonder if he would really be a match to a trained BJJ fighter of higher skills. Really goes to show that you can't rely on any one martial art.

Often times we read so much philosophy about Aikido that the realities of self defense are garbled in the intellectual writings of some Aikidoist. I agree with Don Magee and Budd Yuhasz. Great to here people speaking about the realities of marital arts.

paw
08-19-2007, 10:12 PM
On a related note, here's an interesting video of a BJJ guy sparring with an Aikido guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ny3yZitAFU

I suppose I'm a day late and a dollar short...

Where I've trained, an aikido black belt tends to be someone with at least 5-6 years of training time. Someone with 5-6 years of training time in bjj wouldn't be a white belt, mostly likely blue/purple. To me it would be more accurate to show two people with similar training times to draw any conclusions.

Regards,

Paul

Roman Kremianski
08-19-2007, 10:57 PM
BJJ and Aikido belts are a bit different. I don't believe one has to be a BJJ black belt to play with an Aikido black belt. Kind of how many top MMA guys are BJJ white belts, and have have known to have beaten many high belt BJJ guys.

Aristeia
08-19-2007, 11:06 PM
yeah but this guy looked to be a white white belt. *maybe* 1 stripe....

salim
08-20-2007, 07:57 AM
The Aikido guy eye gouged the BJJ guy at the end. The Aikido guy was pretty winded and the BJJ guy allowed him to regain himself. If the BJJ guy was a black belt the story may have been completely different. Also I noticed the methods of atemi waza were used a lot by the Aikidoist.

Aristeia
08-20-2007, 01:38 PM
BJJ guy was a black belt the story may have been completely different..*may* have? Based on that video if the bjj guy had been one of my three stripe white belts it would have been completely different...

Roman Kremianski
08-20-2007, 01:52 PM
That's I'm trying to say.

salim
08-20-2007, 01:56 PM
Perhaps they give out black belts in Aikido like giving candy to a child.

Roman Kremianski
08-20-2007, 02:09 PM
BJJ black belts are few and between in contrast to Aikido. Try to search up some local BJJ black belts in your city/town. Harder yet, try finding some that are actually capable of awarding belts.

Aristeia
08-20-2007, 02:21 PM
why would a bjj bb not be able to award at least blue and purple?

dalen7
08-20-2007, 02:26 PM
Perhaps they give out black belts in Aikido like giving candy to a child.

would be nice...my sempai (1st kyu) has been at it 10 years I believe...our 2nd kyus have been at it around 7 years I would say...so please, oh please start handing out those candy black belts - or Im switching! :D

Peace

dAlen

Roman Kremianski
08-20-2007, 02:33 PM
why would a bjj bb not be able to award at least blue and purple?

Meant black belts. My mistake.

Bill Brownlow
08-20-2007, 03:15 PM
Hi folks!

... although I'm sure the philosophical approaches of both vary more by club than anything else....


Can't agree more. The club where I have been training BJJ for the past 8 years has a very favorable look on Aikido. The stand up techniques we learn to apply for self defense are often ikkio, nikkio, sankyo or kote-gaeshi (sorry if mangled the spelling). My instructor doesn't often use Aikido lingo, but teaches it as "defense against a one handed lapel grab, variation #1, and variation #2 " This is how I learned it.

A few years ago, my work scheduled changed for a few months and I couldn't train with him regularly, I joined an Aikido dojo for that time and was like, "Cool, I kind of know this". I say kind of because our stand up classes were maybe once a month and there is a certain amount of use it or lose it with my muscle memory.

After getting back to my regular club and talking to my instructor about it he told me that "Yeah, you can call it Aikido if you like. I prefer to call it Jiu Jitsu. Wrestling, Boxing, Karate, call it whatever you want, but to me they are all different sections of the same sphere of movement I like to call Jiu Jitsu." He told me another time, "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, just takes Aikido and puts it on the floor. Its the same concepts of spherical movement, blending and redirecting our opponent. In bjj we just use our backs and hips instead of our feet and hips to generate the movement. (think lying down vs standing up) He holds shodan in aikido and judo, nidan in tang soo do and has many years in freestyle/folkstyle wrestling, thai boxing and escrima apart from his bjj training.

Personally, I like his philosophy. Call it what you want its all jiu jitsu to me.


...Aikido is billed as a generally useless martial art for self defense (other folk's words - not mine) while BJJ and similar styles get the media blitz ....


First see above about self defense per se.

When sparring 1 on 1 my instructor will usually use the classic MMA (thai box/bjj). As soon as another person enters the mix its an aikido game.

Thanks for reading.
Bill

Budd
08-20-2007, 03:19 PM
Nice post, Bill, your perspective and mileage are appreciated.

Bill Brownlow
08-20-2007, 03:20 PM
Hi folks!

... although I'm sure the philosophical approaches of both vary more by club than anything else....


Can't agree more. The club where I have been training BJJ for the past 8 years has a very favorable look on Aikido. The stand up techniques we learn to apply for self defense are often ikkio, nikkio, sankyo or kote-gaeshi (sorry if mangled the spelling). My instructor doesn't often use Aikido lingo, but teaches it as "defense against a one handed lapel grab, variation #1, and variation #2 " This is how I learned it.

A few years ago, my work scheduled changed for a few months and I couldn't train with him regularly, I joined an Aikido dojo for that time and was like, "Cool, I kind of know this". I say kind of because our stand up classes were maybe once a month and there is a certain amount of use it or lose it with my muscle memory.

After getting back to my regular club and talking to my instructor about it he told me that "Yeah, you can call it Aikido if you like. I prefer to call it Jiu Jitsu. Wrestling, Boxing, Karate, call it whatever you want, but to me they are all different sections of the same sphere of movement I like to call Jiu Jitsu." He told me another time, "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, just takes Aikido and puts it on the floor. Its the same concepts of spherical movement, blending and redirecting our opponent. In bjj we just use our backs and hips instead of our feet and hips to generate the movement. (think lying down vs standing up) He holds shodan in aikido and judo, nidan in tang soo do and has many years in freestyle/folkstyle wrestling, thai boxing and escrima apart from his bjj training.

Personally, I like his philosophy. Call it what you want its all jiu jitsu to me.


...Aikido is billed as a generally useless martial art for self defense (other folk's words - not mine) while BJJ and similar styles get the media blitz ....


First see above about self defense.

To address uselessness, When sparring 1 on 1 my instructor will almost always use the classic MMA (thai box/bjj). As soon as another person enters the mix its an aikido game. The reason being not that Aikido is useless for handling 1 on 1, but Aikido becomes the only option (in his opinion) for handling more than 1.

Thanks for reading.
Bill

DonMagee
08-20-2007, 03:26 PM
I think the white belt in that video was poor quality even for a white belt. I'd put him at the under 1 month mark in skill. He made very classical mistakes and had no confidence. He seemed to have no knowledge of take downs in any regards (bjj or otherwise) and for some unknown reason wanted to pull the aikido guy down on top of him.

He was not prepared for a bjj tournament, let alone a challenge match.

salim
08-20-2007, 03:38 PM
would be nice...my sempai (1st kyu) has been at it 10 years I believe...our 2nd kyus have been at it around 7 years I would say...so please, oh please start handing out those candy black belts - or Im switching! :D

Peace

dAlen
Come to North Carolina and see all the pretty black belts. Most have no clue about self defense, there tasebaki and tenkan looks like there dancing!

Ron Tisdale
08-20-2007, 04:05 PM
I really didn't see much in the video to impress me on either side.

Who knows how foolish I'd look though...

B,
R ;)

Bill Brownlow
08-21-2007, 08:27 AM
I think the white belt in that video was poor quality even for a white belt. I'd put him at the under 1 month mark in skill. He made very classical mistakes and had no confidence. He seemed to have no knowledge of take downs in any regards (bjj or otherwise) and for some unknown reason wanted to pull the aikido guy down on top of him.

He was not prepared for a bjj tournament, let alone a challenge match.

I didn't watch the whole thing because I thought it was boring and I'm not going to comment on the white belt's level of experience (or the black belt's), but I find it hard to believe that you have never seen people "pulling guard" like that. It is a very common white belt takedown, at the last tournament I was at I saw some blue belts doing it rather successfully (of course they gave up the 2pts for takedown).

The "unknown reason" to pull the guy down on top of him is demonstrated at about 00:56 into the video. The camera angle is not good but he clearly has the guy in his guard and works an armbar - unsuccessfully, but thats what was going on.

Ron Tisdale
08-21-2007, 08:48 AM
Yikes...Don I'm sure understands what "pulling guard" is...

I think he is questioning the logic of using that in that situation. Which I would question too...

Against a competant aikidoka, I'd be working judo sweeps and wrestling shots, NOT trying to pull guard clumsily.

Best,
Ron

DonMagee
08-21-2007, 09:12 AM
OMG!!!!!!
I watched the video again and realized I know this guy!!!!!! I can't believe I missed my club's patch on his back!

He trains at my bjj club when he is in town (rarely). He's actually here this week. I'm going to have to pick on him about it.

He's a large guy, and from what I seen last night at practice (first time he's been here in months) he still tries strength over technique. He's also young and very scared of hand and wrist locks. One night at my house my aikido instructor wanted to show a quick lock and he asked to use him. He only touched his hand and the kid about jumped though the roof.

He's a nice guy though. I really believe he probably did not even realize that he was in a challenge match and thought he was in a bjj match. I think he learned a valuable lesson in that video. Ask about the rules before you accept cross style challenge matches. It's hard for him because he really has no training except for when he is in South Bend, IN and can train with us.

After reading the comments. I'm kinda embarrassed at how everyone makes it seem like the aikido guy was a bad guy though. He was just playing his game by his rules. Nothing wrong with that. Personally the moment he hit me or went for a dirty technique. My game would of changed and I would of done the same. I can't fault him for playing his game though. It did demonstrate that being mentally prepared to keep and play your game will allow you control another fighter.

But I can't claim the white belt was unprepared. He has at least 4-6 solid months of bjj. Which I always claim is enough to take down and submit most people. He has also on a few occasions trained in judo with us on saturdays. I guess I can only point to a lack of consistent training with partners more skilled them him has created some large holes in his game. I'm still going to pick on him for getting beaten up while trying to pull the sloppiest guard I've seen in a while.

Bill Brownlow
08-21-2007, 09:31 AM
Yikes...Don I'm sure understands what "pulling guard" is...

I think he is questioning the logic of using that in that situation. Which I would question too...

Against a competant aikidoka, I'd be working judo sweeps and wrestling shots, NOT trying to pull guard clumsily.

Best,
Ron

I certainly meant no disrespect to Don, but re-reading my post I can see how it may have come off preachy. I did not have that intention.

I was trying to impress that if you only have a hammer in your toolbox, everything looks like a nail. Depending on the white belt's level and previous grappling/martial arts exp, that may be the only way to take down an opponent that he knows. As a white belt, all he knows is submissions from the ground.

I would agree with you as well that trying to pull guard without setting up a good opening for it is a very BAD idea, and yes from what little I saw it was clumsy.

DonMagee
08-21-2007, 09:59 AM
I certainly meant no disrespect to Don, but re-reading my post I can see how it may have come off preachy. I did not have that intention.

I was trying to impress that if you only have a hammer in your toolbox, everything looks like a nail. Depending on the white belt's level and previous grappling/martial arts exp, that may be the only way to take down an opponent that he knows. As a white belt, all he knows is submissions from the ground.

I would agree with you as well that trying to pull guard without setting up a good opening for it is a very BAD idea, and yes from what little I saw it was clumsy.

That's why I didn't call it pulling guard. Pulling guard like a throw requires you break the balance first. Otherwise you are just trying to pull the guy down on top of you, or hugging a guy standing up with your legs wrapped around him.

salim
08-21-2007, 10:10 AM
I think it's great that we have an Aikidoist sparring. We should advocate for more sparring. It's a true test of a person's ability, unlike demonstrations, which tell you nothing about a person ability to realistically defend themselves. Winner or loser, it's a real test of ability.

philippe willaume
08-21-2007, 12:10 PM
Hello

First of all, what would have been the reaction, had that white belt whooped his black belt ass?

So BJJ did not work very well on that very occurrence, and so what . one swallow does not bring the spring

If you are sparing on a regular basis what ever the sparing at, you will lose some here and then. And that is all sparing proves that X had the better on Z at a time T.

Can we really call the “punches” and “kicks” strikes, they seems to me more like distraction to me.
Besides you are a little bit naïve when sparing with some who know you grapple, does not have a ground game himself and except him to drop his only weapons preserve the distance.
Aikido is not magical, you need to have create an advantage to establish your techniques.

phil

Basia Halliop
08-21-2007, 12:57 PM
Well, I don't know enough about BJJ to know how good or bad he was, but I wasn't hugely impressed by the Aikido guy, at least considering he was the one wearing a black belt and presumably had several years more training than the other guy.

Basia Halliop
08-21-2007, 01:01 PM
I assumed the kicking and punching was partly an attempt to start some kind of interaction, to get the other guy to block or strike back and give himself something more familiar to respond to or something, since he probably was used to training from some kind of strike or grab... I don't really know though.

salim
08-21-2007, 01:12 PM
Hello

First of all, what would have been the reaction, had that white belt whooped his black belt ass?

So BJJ did not work very well on that very occurrence, and so what . one swallow does not bring the spring

If you are sparing on a regular basis what ever the sparing at, you will lose some here and then. And that is all sparing proves that X had the better on Z at a time T.

Can we really call the "punches" and "kicks" strikes, they seems to me more like distraction to me.
Besides you are a little bit naïve when sparing with some who know you grapple, does not have a ground game himself and except him to drop his only weapons preserve the distance.
Aikido is not magical, you need to have create an advantage to establish your techniques.

phil

I disagree with you regarding what sparring does for a person. Sparring is not about winning or losing necessarily. The object for some, is to determine a person's self defense capability. It allows a person to judge there weaknesses with there timing, there ability to move in any direction, there ability to counter act unplanned attacks or moves that you are not familiar with defending. It allows you to judge yourself, improve your own skills and abilities. There are an array of unconventional punches, kicks, take downs, movements that only training, sparring can allow a person to learn from. Sparring is a good training method for self defense.

salim
08-21-2007, 01:16 PM
Look how winded the Aikido guy was. The BJJ guy actually allowed the Aikido to regain his wind. Imagine a real fight, they are not going to allow you to regain you wind. In a real fight they are going to kick your ass, put a hurting own you. If we didn't learn anything from the video, we learn that physical conditioning extremely is important.

DonMagee
08-21-2007, 01:31 PM
Very true, he was too nice. If someone tried to eye gouge me. I would not rest until they were out cold.

salim
08-21-2007, 11:46 PM
It's amazing how the Aikikai and Ki organizations, really are the ones who have a problem with the training methods of sparring. They are so heavily influenced by the Shinto religion that they have abandon the combativeness that Aikido had, post WWII.

You rarely here the Yoseikan, Yoshikhan or Aikibudo organization having a gripe with sparring or self defense. Really a turn off to those who have the drive to learn purely self defense.

philippe willaume
08-22-2007, 04:53 AM
I disagree with you regarding what sparring does for a person. Sparring is not about winning or losing necessarily. The object for some, is to determine a person's self defense capability. It allows a person to judge there weaknesses with there timing, there ability to move in any direction, there ability to counter act unplanned attacks or moves that you are not familiar with defending. It allows you to judge yourself, improve your own skills and abilities. There are an array of unconventional punches, kicks, take downs, movements that only training, sparring can allow a person to learn from. Sparring is a good training method for self defense.

Well about losing and winning
You are dancing around the bush here.
In sparing, it is not so much the case one will fare better than the other globally (that will fluctuate through time and it does not really matter. But for each technique that he successfully applies you lost. That is the net result of all the assessment you are making. There should be no issue recognising that your sparing partner has the better on you. In fact that is te first step to address issue you have with your strategy, tactics or technique.
(Though usually technique is not the one that, let you down, it is trying to apply one when it is not really the time or the place.)

My point is that even if you are very good in sparing, your partner will get some on you.
It happens and I would say that exactly the point. Sparing is an environment where losing as no consequences. Winning ort loosing do not really matter as you will always be able to get a positive aspect on how you perform.
I think it is not very different to what you are saying. However No not recognising failure lead to the comment that the guy that spared made on you tube.
Ie I controlled him all the time, I could have ,I would have if I really wanted to…
No he did not have control of the bloke most of the time, if that was the case he would have pulled more successful technique. It is not a matter of could would or wanting….
If that is what you get out of sparing, it will never be of any use.

About the virtue of sparing
What the sparing scenario “I am squaring up to you outside any partcial range or at extreme kick range” has to do with self defence? Sparing is duelling which seldom happens in self defence.
Sparing only value in self defence is that it tunes your strategically, tactical and technical aspect of fighting. basically it makes you better at using the technique.
As well if you are recreating an art like medieval fencing for exemple, sparing is very important research tool because if you can not pull a technique in sparring, there is something that you did not understand and you need to go back to the manual.
And for me that is the biggest danger with sparing, you can drop a technique because it does not work, where in fact the technique is perfectly fine and the problem is in where and when you tried to use it.

From work (or drill) is the place to develop technique not sparing. Sparing can give an idea for drill/ form work. But to develop the motor skill for a given technique, you need consistency and sparing can not give you that. (Well it will eventually do, but it is much much more inefficient than drill/from work.)

phil

philippe willaume
08-22-2007, 05:09 AM
I assumed the kicking and punching was partly an attempt to start some kind of interaction, to get the other guy to block or strike back and give himself something more familiar to respond to or something, since he probably was used to training from some kind of strike or grab... I don't really know though.
To me he used kick and punches, to fill the vacuum between them, So that the bjj guy could not close on him. It is exactly like keeping the point of a sword towards your opponent.
They were not really strikes so to speak, they are warning shot across the bow if you want.
Of course there is always the possibility that my 87 grand-mother pack more whallops that the aikido guy or that he is severely short sighted and strike too short.

Ps
Not to throw a spanner in the works but the aikido guy can be knackered, he just had his training session. I do not know how long and how intense his sessions are but I am not on top condition after mine.

philippe willaume
08-22-2007, 05:22 AM
Well, I don't know enough about BJJ to know how good or bad he was, but I wasn't hugely impressed by the Aikido guy, at least considering he was the one wearing a black belt and presumably had several years more training than the other guy.

Sparring will seldom look nice or impressive (unless the party involved are very good).
Yes it does not look earth shattering but it is a video and we where not there.
It is good that they spared, now there is not that much that video tell us.
Nothing other hand a smaller more experienced aikidoka after a training session was able to hold off /was slightly better than a fresh bigger and much less experience BJJ practitioner.

If those guy where sparing regularly, the BJJ guy will adapt and then reverse the tendency, to which the aikido guy will adapt and reverse the tendency and so and so on.

There is no generic lesson as to this is the proof that X is better than Z here, just what worked and did not for those two guys at that given time. (Where X and Z can be style or persons).
It is just one occurrence. We can not build rules or even have and unqualified opinion with that.

phil

Keith R Lee
08-22-2007, 06:39 AM
So, from looking at that video....a few months old BJJ white belt and a Aikido black belt negate each other in terms of skill?

:p

grondahl
08-22-2007, 07:30 AM
It's amazing how the Aikikai and Ki organizations, really are the ones who have a problem with the training methods of sparring. They are so heavily influenced by the Shinto religion that they have abandon the combativeness that Aikido had, post WWII.

You rarely here the Yoseikan, Yoshikhan or Aikibudo organization having a gripe with sparring or self defense. Really a turn off to those who have the drive to learn purely self defense.

What? Are you saying that they used to train with sparring in aikido before WW2? And also that Yoshinkan uses sparring in its training?
Where have you "learned" all of this?

Basia Halliop
08-22-2007, 08:47 AM
Uh, Salim, don't you mean Tomiki ?.... :rolleyes:

Also, Aikikai isn't really a style per se, it's more a collection of everyone left over who has never left to form their own group :). I wouldn't say it's got any one particular view or philosophy. For example, what I have learned so far about Shintoism after around three years in the Aikikai: it's a religion in Japan.

Basia Halliop
08-22-2007, 08:52 AM
For the record, when I said I wasn't hugely impressed, I didn't mean prettiness. All I meant was that they struck me as too well matched for a black belt going against someone with 4-6 months of training. I could have judged wrong though, since I'm not so used to evaluating that format, and anyway, as you say, it's hard to draw big conclusions.

Basia Halliop
08-22-2007, 09:05 AM
Uh, Salim, don't you mean Tomiki ?.... :rolleyes:

Also, Aikikai isn't really a style per se, it's more a collection of everyone left over who has never left to form their own group :). I wouldn't say it's got any one particular view or philosophy. For example, what I have learned so far about Shintoism after around three years in the Aikikai: it's a religion in Japan.

philippe willaume
08-22-2007, 12:54 PM
What? Are you saying that they used to train with sparring in aikido before WW2? And also that Yoshinkan uses sparring in its training?
Where have you "learned" all of this?

Hello Peter I don’t believe that is what Salim is saying. (that being said, it is forum communication ....)

I think he just says that should you happen to mention a liking or interest in sparing or self defense, those organizations do not send you a two beams, 3 nails and a hammer via 3 roman legionaries.
What I understand he is saying that is those organization are more open to the ideas of sparing and using aikido in a more self defense way that aikikai (which I understand is Hombu affiliated dojo)or ki aikido tradition/schools..

Phil

Roman Kremianski
08-22-2007, 01:15 PM
I've yet to see a Yoshinkan dojo where they spar, so maybe I'm missing a piece of the "pre-WW2" history here.

philippe willaume
08-23-2007, 05:10 AM
I've yet to see a Yoshinkan dojo where they spar, so maybe I'm missing a piece of the "pre-WW2" history here.

"It's amazing how the Aikikai and Ki organizations, really are the ones who have a problem with the training methods of sparring. They are so heavily influenced by the Shinto religion that they have abandon the combativeness that Aikido had, post WWII."
.

may be i am daft but I do not understand what salim said as they were sparing before WWII and aikikai and ki lost that aspect.

I just understand that as ki and aikikai don not puyt much value on sparing, in fact they have moved away from the more combat oriented pre WWII aikido.

ps i do not nessecarily agree with that, it is too much of sweeping statement, but i think that is what salim is saying.

grondahl
08-23-2007, 06:30 AM
That is how I understand Salims post as well. But the problem I see is that all records indicates that Ueshiba didn´t teach sparring either before or after WW2. So the aspect that he claims have been lost has never been there.

may be i am daft but I do not understand what salim said as they were sparing before WWII and aikikai and ki lost that aspect.

I just understand that as ki and aikikai don not puyt much value on sparing, in fact they have moved away from the more combat oriented pre WWII aikido.

ps i do not nessecarily agree with that, it is too much of sweeping statement, but i think that is what salim is saying.

mathewjgano
08-23-2007, 09:15 AM
It's amazing how the Aikikai and Ki organizations, really are the ones who have a problem with the training methods of sparring. They are so heavily influenced by the Shinto religion that they have abandon the combativeness that Aikido had, post WWII.

I may not be an expert on this, but I train at a licensed Shinto shrine under a licensed Shinto priest and by most accounts, our form of Aikido is very "firm." I regularly see folks testing each other out before and during training ("sparring," as I understand it) and I've often recieved a crisp strike (never very hard, but it always stings a little) when I don't move properly. I don't think the religion has anything to do with it.
What I think much of the Aikido world takes exception to is the idea of competing too much during these activities. I'm sure there are plenty of dojo that don't like people to compete in the manner described above, but there's a fine line between competing and pushing a partner to new limits. Maybe the best way of saying it is, "safety first?"
Take care,
Matt

mathewjgano
08-23-2007, 10:41 AM
That is how I understand Salims post as well. But the problem I see is that all records indicates that Ueshiba didn´t teach sparring either before or after WW2. So the aspect that he claims have been lost has never been there.

Maybe I don't understand what sparring is...
I recall taking tae kwon do in elementary school and watching the yellow belts "spar." They weren't allowed to go at it full force because they're yellow belts, yet it was called "sparring." Maybe an elementary tae kwon do class isn't a good example, but I've never seen "sparring" refer to full-force contact. As I said above, I understand many dojo do not like it when uke tries kaeshiwaza/reversals, but I've still been given the impression there's a degree of "sparring" when two students practice a technique during open-mat sessions. Any time someone stops the flow to teach or make suggestions, isn't that a mild form of sparring? Add to that the increased intensity with which different sempai uke apply pressure and I don't understand the idea that there is no sparring in Aikido. Tomiki Ryu has a very structured sparring system. Their randori system, as I think I understand it, uses a graduating degree of force that I think most people would liken to a graduating degree of sparring, but still it's sparring. Perhaps Shodokan folks with more experience will correct me if I'm wrong.

grondahl
08-23-2007, 10:53 AM
But Shodokans system for randori is not prewar as far that I´m aware of.. And it was constructed by Tomiki, not Ueshiba. Thus it was never a part of the training method either in Aikikai hombu, Iwama, Shingu etc....

mathewjgano
08-23-2007, 11:21 AM
But Shodokans system for randori is not prewar as far that I´m aware of.. And it was constructed by Tomiki, not Ueshiba. Thus it was never a part of the training method either in Aikikai hombu, Iwama, Shingu etc....

That's a good point about it being more akin to prewar styling (as I assume you meant). Still, what about the underlying principle of added degrees of pressure? I'm probably stretching it by suggesting corrections are a form of sparring, but I know my dojo is influenced by Tohei sensei and Chiba sensei; I assume much of our format was derived from them, but I should probably do more research before I start making assumptions like that.

mathewjgano
08-23-2007, 11:43 AM
...sorry, I meant to include the idea that randori isn't exclusively a Shodokan thing. It exists in all styles of aikido...I believe. What's different between randori and sparring?
Maybe I'm getting off topic, but it seems to me sparring is randori and that Aikikai includes this practice. Maybe it's less important than the idea of how much randori to include in one's training, but spontaneous changes in movement is an invaluable aspect of my experiences with Aikido and I have always assumed this to be intrinsic to it and a form of sparring.
Take care,
Matt

Ron Tisdale
08-23-2007, 11:59 AM
Hi Mathew,

In general, randori in Japanese arts loses the distinction between uke and nage/shite/tori. Shodokan Aikido follows this example.

Aikikai, Yoshinkan Aikido does do what is called randori, but in most cases, there is still a distinction between uke and nage. One person in uke, and one nage for the entire exercise.

Most of the latter would be quite surprised in a true Shodokan randori situation, I think. Not all...but at least quite a few.

Best,
Ron (I would include myself in that assessment)

Basia Halliop
08-23-2007, 12:07 PM
Randori probably means different things in different dojos and with different people.

Most of what I've seen is sort of like 'ukes(s) take turns attacking nage in one of 'the usual' attacks (any attack theoretically), nage does a technique of their choice, uke does ukemi, next uke attacks.' I.e., the uke(s) are still not 'trying to win' generally any more than in paired kata practice, they're just attacking then taking ukemi, it's just that nage doesn't know what attack is coming at him/her or from what direction, and has to decide on the spur of the moment which technique to do for that attack. But it's generally still basically structured and basically 'cooperative', at least what I've mostly seen.

On the other hand, I've also seen/done jiu-waza that was totally different from that, much closer to sparring, attacks much less structured (although still not 'full-force'), you tried to stick in 'real techniques' whenever you could but if you couldn't think of a 'real technique' to do, you did something else fast otherwise the other would do something -- but rarely and only with a few people.

salim
08-23-2007, 12:58 PM
What? Are you saying that they used to train with sparring in aikido before WW2? And also that Yoshinkan uses sparring in its training?
Where have you "learned" all of this?

The sparring methodology of Aikido, originally called Aikibudo was that of militaristic superiority. Japan was at it's height in what it called militaristic pride before WWII. The warrior mentality was always a part of the traditional Japanese martial arts before WWII. Historically Aiki methodology was mastered for killing, Aikijujutsu, Aikibudo, etc. The combative nature of these martial arts was for the
warrior , required sparring, testing of skills for combat and effectiveness of technique.

The warrior mentality was part of Ueshiba's mentality at the time. As most know his primary martial arts background was in Judo, from Kiyoichi Takagi, Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, from Takeda Sokaku and other traditional Japanese martial arts. Some writings indicate the speeches of nationalism and gratification of the samurai vanquishing it's enemies. This was the mentality of early Aikido (Aikibudo was the name he used to describe his martial arts at the time.)

Ueshiba became deeply influenced by religious sect leader Onisaburo Deguchi, the leader of the neo-Shinto Omoto-kyo religion. The philosophy of utopia, love and compassion were essential elements in the teachings. Ueshiba distance himself from the methodology of Judo and Aikijujutsu toward the late 1920s or 30's. Aikibudo became Aikido officially in 1942. A result of the religious conversation, what was thought of as a purification of the Aikibudo, to harmonize men. The hostile environment created by the Japanese government also propagated the discontinuance of traditional Japanese combat martial arts. Aikido was formed more from a religious zealousness, losing it's combat nature that it originally had.

The warrior, sparring nature of Aikibudo was reunited from some of the early students of Ueshiba. Minoru Mochizuki, a direct student of Ueshiba and one of the first to bring Aikido to the western world, brought Yoseikan Aikdio. The methodologies of Judo, Aikijujutsu were brought back to the original Aikibudo, very prevalent in France under the auspices of Alain Floquet, a direct student of Mochizuki. Mochizuki preserved the true essence of Aikido. Sparring, competitive nature was brought back to life. Goza Shioda brought Yoshinkan Aikido, another warrior driven methodology. Kenji Tomiki brought Shodokan Aikido, which holds regular competitions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoseikan_Aikido

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shodokan_Aikido

http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=3455

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=244

http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclopedia.php?entryID=324

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=322

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=87

Ron Tisdale
08-23-2007, 01:00 PM
Salim, no offense, but I think you've seen too many samurai movies... ;)

Best,
Ron

salim
08-23-2007, 01:05 PM
I love those movies.

Cheers

Budd
08-23-2007, 01:21 PM
You know, here's a conflict (and I swear it's related to all of this stuff) that there may be in trying to study both aikido and bjj:

Reishiki.

In aikido, very often, there's quite a bit of ceremony and fomalized behavior - sometimes exacerbated needlessly, sometimes critically tied into one's worldview of budo, other times there simply to preserve the tradition in what one's been taught.

Bowing, posture, how to sit, how to stand, opening and closing the engagment - many times there's a right and wrong way to do this . . . which can be a comfort to someone that thrives by strict controls and a hindrance to someone that just wants to roll.

I'll admit, my own bias is typically towards a less formal setting, but thanks to my current instructor, I've begun to see the merit of rei, incorporated it more into my practice and made the effort to better understand what's meant by the term, "Budo begins and ends with Rei" . . .

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu has its own cultural attributes that permeate practice. It's not uncommon to see guys lounging/laying around in a casual fashion while the instructor teaches a technique or drill. This actually can be viewed as having merit in an approach to instruction - in that it's consistent with the idea of using as little energy as possible, conserving strength, etc. It's also indicative of a possibly more casual approach to certain conventions of practice.

Anyhow, I see this as more of a source of conflict than necessarily the techniques and principles. The conflicts in randori I think are also worth mentioning, but I think a number of aikido schools/practitioners legitimately look for ways of "honest" testing that don't have anything to do with competition - whether they call it randori, jiyu waza, sparring, training . . . etc.

Roman Kremianski
08-23-2007, 02:17 PM
Is this the Yoseikan Aikido you're talking about Salim? (Just what a found from a quick youtube search)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xRVAjktcT1E

Budd: I've always found that the "When in Rome..." saying worked best for me. Whatever environment you're in, blend with it. I can imagine how Aikidoka might find it weird that BJJ guys talk and laugh during stretching, or play loud music during practice/rolling. Ehehe.

Reishiki doesn't define who you are. Just because you are mimicking another culture doesn't mean you will "lack" something in your martial arts training if you don't follow those guidelines. As long as there's a sense of respect and order on the mat, it's all fine, bowing in seiza or not.

Just what I think.

grondahl
08-23-2007, 02:36 PM
Yoseikan Aiki-jutsu.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=inS1EPTMn-A&mode=related&search=

I can feel the combative warrior spirit shine! ;)

Budd
08-23-2007, 03:48 PM
Hi Roman,

Agree with the "when in Rome . . ." (especially per my earlier co-opting of Don's quote).

As for mimicking another culture, it's more about retaining aspects of another culture's influences in your current practice and learning to see relevance for yourself - not necessarily making one more or less martial.

Order and respect are relative things, depending on your viewpoint. To your point, there are plenty of instances in a Japanese dojo setting where "respect" is overtly shown, but not given. Likewise in a BJJ session, swearing and silliness can mask shared brotherhood towards a common purpose.

Budd: I've always found that the "When in Rome..." saying worked best for me. Whatever environment you're in, blend with it. I can imagine how Aikidoka might find it weird that BJJ guys talk and laugh during stretching, or play loud music during practice/rolling. Ehehe.

Reishiki doesn't define who you are. Just because you are mimicking another culture doesn't mean you will "lack" something in your martial arts training if you don't follow those guidelines. As long as there's a sense of respect and order on the mat, it's all fine, bowing in seiza or not.

Just what I think.

salim
08-23-2007, 04:40 PM
Is this the Yoseikan Aikido you're talking about Salim? (Just what a found from a quick youtube search)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xRVAjktcT1E

Budd: I've always found that the "When in Rome..." saying worked best for me. Whatever environment you're in, blend with it. I can imagine how Aikidoka might find it weird that BJJ guys talk and laugh during stretching, or play loud music during practice/rolling. Ehehe.

Reishiki doesn't define who you are. Just because you are mimicking another culture doesn't mean you will "lack" something in your martial arts training if you don't follow those guidelines. As long as there's a sense of respect and order on the mat, it's all fine, bowing in seiza or not.

Just what I think.

Yes thats Yoseikan Aikido.

salim
08-23-2007, 04:42 PM
[QUOTE=Peter Gröndahl;187322]Yoseikan Aiki-jutsu.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=inS1EPTMn-A&mode=related&search=

I can feel the combative warrior spirit shine! ;)[/QUOTE

Nice youtube clip and definitely more adaptive to self defense.

Roman Kremianski
08-23-2007, 09:36 PM
Likewise in a BJJ session, swearing and silliness can mask shared brotherhood towards a common purpose.

By respect and order I didn't really mean quiet seiza and Japanese class lingo. Meant more of what you said. We swear all the time, and our teacher regularly (and good heartedly) refers to some of his students as "punks", but there is a strong sense of family in the dojo. No one is out to get no one, and every one is on good terms, especially when it comes time to help someone progress.

Just felt like saying that as a lot of people speak of the etiquette in Aikido as if it produces better people than an MMA gym. Many of our folks have careers too, and they go about their day just like anyone else. Whatever works for the person right?

I always found it strange though how mellowed out people are here. You go to a youth hockey team outing and it's usually a testosterone-powered rivalry. You walk into a gym where people of all sizes come in to fight, and it's like walking into a cafe.

Budd
08-23-2007, 09:44 PM
I always found it strange though how mellowed out people are here. You go to a youth hockey team outing and it's usually a testosterone-powered rivalry. You walk into a gym where people of all sizes come in to fight, and it's like walking into a cafe.

Yeah, there's groups in the aiki and MMA end of the spectrum that beat the crap out of each other, such that people are always injured (for stupid reasons, IMO). There's also folks in both games that know when to appropriately "turn it on", but generally know how to be cool and keep it in context.

mathewjgano
08-24-2007, 05:53 PM
Ron, thanks for the clarification on randori! I find I often develop a sense of certain terminology which is close, but not quite correct, to the actual meaning. I think I may be thinking of "shiai" but I'm not yet positive of that.

Salim, thanks for the bit of history. You've clearly looked it up more than I have. My only real point was that "Shinto" itself isn't so much a factor in the presumed lack of sparring since it existed before aikido did. You're probably right that Oomotokyo influenced aikido to a large degree (via Osensei); my only question is how that presumably took place. Osensei was involved in Oomotokyo during the 20's and 30's when "aikido" was still more "hard" wasn't he?
Take care, and sorry for straying off topic.
Matt

salim
08-25-2007, 12:28 PM
Ron, thanks for the clarification on randori! I find I often develop a sense of certain terminology which is close, but not quite correct, to the actual meaning. I think I may be thinking of "shiai" but I'm not yet positive of that.

Salim, thanks for the bit of history. You've clearly looked it up more than I have. My only real point was that "Shinto" itself isn't so much a factor in the presumed lack of sparring since it existed before aikido did. You're probably right that Oomotokyo influenced aikido to a large degree (via Osensei); my only question is how that presumably took place. Osensei was involved in Oomotokyo during the 20's and 30's when "aikido" was still more "hard" wasn't he?
Take care, and sorry for straying off topic.
Matt

It is commonly thought that Ueshiba's increasing attachment to pacifism in later years and belief that Aikido should be an "art of peace" were inspired by his involvement with the sect.

Ueshiba met Onisaburo Deguchi around 1920, research suggest that over the years, perhaps a 15 to 20 year period there was a natural progression toward pacifism, due to the teachings of Omoto religion. Ueshiba went through sort of, Aikido metamorphosed. The combative nature of the original Aikido was changed to meet the needs of Ueshiba's religious beliefs.

It's true that the early Aikido methods maintain some of it's combativeness. This was gradually reduced to pacifism.
The increase pressure from the Japanese government to remove combat arts from Japan greatly influenced all Japanese arts during this time. It was seen as a display of defiance toward government control of the society at large.

wildaikido
08-26-2007, 09:16 AM
Hello All,

As a Yoseikan Aikidoka I feel I can contribute.

First the clip above is not Yoseikan Aikido, it is Yoseikan Budo of Hiroo Mochizuki.

In Yoseikan we have Shiai, combat practice, which could be used to mean "competition" but would be classified as sparing. Our Jiyu Randori, which would be more in line with what would be considered sparring in karate for example. Here uke attacks in any way, and always resists tori. For this reason things tend to end up on the floor with uke and tori grappling. This is identical to the randori in Judo.

Our shiai is a competitive randori, which was never meant to be organised to formal competitions that Yoseikan Budo now have, as Judo was never meant to be part of the Olympics. Here the practitioners decide on scoring and rules and then compete. This could be with knifes and batons, or hand to hand like judo, scoring with a clean throw or a pin.

Now from that, Yoseikan Aikido includes all Judo ne waza, ground fighting techniques. Even the old techniques that are no longer in Judo, such as leg locks are in Yoseikan Aikido. Hence, our ground fighting is comparable to BJJ. So the compatibility that is being discussed between Aikido and BJJ, already exists in Yoseikan Aikido.

Regards,

salim
08-26-2007, 10:01 AM
Hello All,

As a Yoseikan Aikidoka I feel I can contribute.

First the clip above is not Yoseikan Aikido, it is Yoseikan Budo of Hiroo Mochizuki.

In Yoseikan we have Shiai, combat practice, which could be used to mean "competition" but would be classified as sparing. Our Jiyu Randori, which would be more in line with what would be considered sparring in karate for example. Here uke attacks in any way, and always resists tori. For this reason things tend to end up on the floor with uke and tori grappling. This is identical to the randori in Judo.

Our shiai is a competitive randori, which was never meant to be organised to formal competitions that Yoseikan Budo now have, as Judo was never meant to be part of the Olympics. Here the practitioners decide on scoring and rules and then compete. This could be with knifes and batons, or hand to hand like judo, scoring with a clean throw or a pin.

Now from that, Yoseikan Aikido includes all Judo ne waza, ground fighting techniques. Even the old techniques that are no longer in Judo, such as leg locks are in Yoseikan Aikido. Hence, our ground fighting is comparable to BJJ. So the compatibility that is being discussed between Aikido and BJJ, already exists in Yoseikan Aikido.

Regards,

I wish there was a Yoseikan dojo in Raleigh, North Carolina. Yoseikan Aikido is the best Aikido.

wildaikido
08-26-2007, 10:26 AM
I wish there was a Yoseikan dojo in Raleigh, North Carolina. Yoseikan Aikido is the best Aikido.

This is the closest

North Carolina Yoseikan Budo
220 North Poston Street, Shelby, North Carolina USA 28150
Tel: (704) 472-0944
Teacher: Sensei Yves Boudreau

Thank you for making the statement about Yoseikan, but it is a very subjective comment. I think for me, now, at my age, yes, Yoseikan is the best school of Aikido for me. Maybe one day, when I am older I might have a different view of things. Look at O'Sensei, his Aikido evolved through his whole life, as did Mochizuki Kancho's Aikido.

Regards,

gregg block
08-26-2007, 12:26 PM
On a related note, here's an interesting video of a BJJ guy sparring with an Aikido guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ny3yZitAFU

First of all. I didnt see any Aikido from the "black belt" in this video. At least not the kind of Aikido I'm use to seeing. Secondly I think a random guy off the street would stand a pretty good chance of putting a beat down on either of these two. I guess the white belt could claim inexperience. how sad!

Daniel Ranger-Holt
08-26-2007, 01:49 PM
Interesting, i've recently been seriously thinking about possibly cross training. I've been practicing Aikido now for over a year three times a week usually without fail. And was sniffing around Wing Chun then gradually considered BJJ after i learnt more about it. Then i come to this forum for the first time in almost a year and its the first topic in the general forum i see.

Personally i was recently thinking about the practicalities of Aikido, using it in a real street fight situation. It this real thought into it which made me consider something else to compliment my Aikido training. I took up Aikido not for the spiritual aspect, but for self defence.

Even though it seems to me Aikido has the worst reputation when it comes to using it in a real situation. All the arts of course have their disadvantages BJJ has a fair few i can think of in a real street pub brawl envioronment. Im still debating whether to just stick with my Aikido, a 3rd dan at my dojo shows us an Aikido that seems very practical, a lot more solid than a lot of Aikido i've seen online etc.

But if i had the time i think i would attend BJJ twice a week for at least 6 months a year, if there was a dojo near me. (Im in the south east) But at the moment i've put so much into Aikido, even though its only a year and a half or so i have put a lot of time in. I want to see how i feel in a year or so. But BJJ does keep calling!

salim
08-26-2007, 03:35 PM
Perhaps Yoseikan Aikido will solve the dilemma. It already contains some of the BJJ methods along with Judo throws. It's really a good combination for self defense.

Others and myself feel the same way that you do. Really we are not interested in the religious aspects of Aikido and want to learn self defense only.

salim
08-26-2007, 03:41 PM
This is the closest

North Carolina Yoseikan Budo
220 North Poston Street, Shelby, North Carolina USA 28150
Tel: (704) 472-0944
Teacher: Sensei Yves Boudreau

Thank you for making the statement about Yoseikan, but it is a very subjective comment. I think for me, now, at my age, yes, Yoseikan is the best school of Aikido for me. Maybe one day, when I am older I might have a different view of things. Look at O'Sensei, his Aikido evolved through his whole life, as did Mochizuki Kancho's Aikido.

Regards,

Thank you. I'll have to visit this dojo, although it's several hours from Raleigh area.

deepsoup
08-26-2007, 05:22 PM
Interesting, i've recently been seriously thinking about possibly cross training.

You might find it worth your while to seek out a Yoshinkan instructor not a million miles from where you are, by the name of Gadi Shorr. He's a 5th dan graduate of the (in)famous Yoshinkan Senshusei course who also has a great deal of experience of BJJ. He practices and teaches somewhere in Hertfordshire, Watford I think. He's an excellent teacher and a thoroughly good egg, worth a visit perhaps.

Daniel Ranger-Holt
08-26-2007, 06:32 PM
You might find it worth your while to seek out a Yoshinkan instructor not a million miles from where you are, by the name of Gadi Shorr. He's a 5th dan graduate of the (in)famous Yoshinkan Senshusei course who also has a great deal of experience of BJJ. He practices and teaches somewhere in Hertfordshire, Watford I think. He's an excellent teacher and a thoroughly good egg, worth a visit perhaps.

Thats great, thank you i will give the name a google, i would have some questions for him actually. I worry if my problem is my patience. I guess after the time i put in i want to feel like i can defend myself competently, but i'll never know until the time comes.

I havent had a fight in 12 years (when i was at school) i don't see why that has to change. I jus want to know if i can avoid fighting effectively (so use my Aikido) if it was to happen, otherwise i'd do something else that will teach me to end a conflict, but i see nothing as unique as Aikido in this particular way of thought, ending conflict peacfully....which tells me i should jus stick with it.

Im a big dude i dont want to smack someone, anyone, the thought of injuring someone isn't really for me. Why i took Aikido up in the first place. Maybe im answering my own question...stick with Aikido :rolleyes: Who knows, i love the choice though.

wildaikido
08-26-2007, 11:43 PM
Even though it seems to me Aikido has the worst reputation when it comes to using it in a real situation.

This is a sad fact, but all I need to know is that when push comes to shove, I am confident that MY Aikido will work for me.

In the two self defence situations I have been in, my Aikido worked great, just big haymakers (over telegraphed hooks) and some bad kicks, no problems all I had to do was block the attacks. With the second one, I was going to take the guy down, but security turned up, so I let them deal with him.

To me, the mat work in Yoseikan is not part of self defence, but dealing with a trained opponent. Having said that, one of the other students in our class (when he was a beginner) got jumped by two guys and he did a sweep to throw one of the guys, but got pulled down to the ground. Luckily a guy pulled up in his car and scared the two guys off, other wise he would not have known what to do. This is why in my training, I will train ne waza with everyone, even beginners. In a self defence situation it is less likely you will use it, but if someone pulls you down, you have to get them off you quick to deal with the next guy. This is where one on one ground work can complement a multiple opponent art like Aikido.

I believe there are three levels to Aikido, basics, self defence, and combat. Here I us combat to mean defending against a trained attacker in some thing like a protection senario (hence running is not an option). This is where the addition of a totally resistant uke in Yoseikan means we get real experience. Personally I believe that cooperation is needed, but only for basics. After that, uke should resist, he should committee to the attack, like you would get in a self defence situation, but he should resist after that, if he can. I think other styles of Aikido tend to emphasis the cooperation to much, this results in beautiful techniques, but no practical experience.

Regards,

deepsoup
08-27-2007, 05:24 AM
This is where the addition of a totally resistant uke in Yoseikan means we get real experience. Personally I believe that cooperation is needed, but only for basics. After that, uke should resist, he should committee to the attack, like you would get in a self defence situation, but he should resist after that, if he can.

I'm curious about those clips above. Its very pretty to watch, in a way that shiai usually isn't (in judo or Shodokan aikido). Also there doesn't appear to be a mat referee. Do you know what the rules are in that kind of competition? There doesn't seem to be 'full resistance' going on there, more a kind of hikitategeiko. (A kind of partial resistance randori, 'cooperative competition' if you like.)

I wouldn't be so sure about characterising a 'self defence situation' as one in which there's a committed attack - feints, exploratory jabs and sneak attacks are equally likely I'd have thought.

Sean
x

wildaikido
08-27-2007, 07:05 AM
I'm curious about those clips above. Its very pretty to watch, in a way that shiai usually isn't (in judo or Shodokan aikido). Also there doesn't appear to be a mat referee. Do you know what the rules are in that kind of competition? There doesn't seem to be 'full resistance' going on there, more a kind of hikitategeiko. (A kind of partial resistance randori, 'cooperative competition' if you like.)

I wouldn't be so sure about characterising a 'self defence situation' as one in which there's a committed attack - feints, exploratory jabs and sneak attacks are equally likely I'd have thought.

Sean
x

Hi Sean,

I have no idea about the competition that is in Yoseikan Budo, all I know is Mochizuki Kancho agreed with Jigoro Kano, that competition was an effective means to test your level of ability. But competition should not be organised, which could lead to the emergence of a supreme grand champion... In Yoseikan Aikido we still strive for a balance, you and your partner, not you and your opponent!

About that youtube clip I stated that it was Yoseikan Budo of Hiroo Mochizuki, and it does indeed look like a demonstration and not shiai. You are correct, all shiai will look messy, and this is how I would imaging other styles of Aikido would describe Yoseikan at high levels. Where I would describe some styles of Aikido as very pretty at high levels.

If someone is proficient at the level of feinting and leading with jabs to test your defence, they are not trying to "attack you" they are "fighting you" hence I PERSONALLY don't consider it self defence, to me it is combat. But that is why I teach, kihon, self defence, and combat applications of techniques.

Regards,

salim
08-27-2007, 07:39 AM
Hi Sean,

I have no idea about the competition that is in Yoseikan Budo, all I know is Mochizuki Kancho agreed with Jigoro Kano, that competition was an effective means to test your level of ability. But competition should not be organised, which could lead to the emergence of a supreme grand champion... In Yoseikan Aikido we still strive for a balance, you and your partner, not you and your opponent!

About that youtube clip I stated that it was Yoseikan Budo of Hiroo Mochizuki, and it does indeed look like a demonstration and not shiai. You are correct, all shiai will look messy, and this is how I would imaging other styles of Aikido would describe Yoseikan at high levels. Where I would describe some styles of Aikido as very pretty at high levels.

If someone is proficient at the level of feinting and leading with jabs to test your defence, they are not trying to "attack you" they are "fighting you" hence I PERSONALLY don't consider it self defence, to me it is combat. But that is why I teach, kihon, self defence, and combat applications of techniques.

Regards,

Love your approach and wish your mindset was more common among the general Aikidoist. It definitely would bring about better training for self defense. The realities of self defense are often over shadow with romanticism of Aikido.

wildaikido
08-27-2007, 08:53 AM
Love your approach and wish your mindset was more common among the general Aikidoist. It definitely would bring about better training for self defense. The realities of self defense are often over shadow with romanticism of Aikido.

This is a little bit of a generalisation. I think there are lots of good Aikidoka out there, they are just few and far between. Look at the Yoshinkan, if you go through the senshusei course, you deserve your shodan in a year.

However, the vast amount of @#$% on youtube says that there are a lot of people who have no Budo in there Aikido.

I think it is up to the students of Aikido, student choose the teacher, and you can't teach with out students. I found people I can respect, and who know their stuff, and I go out of my way if I have to seek out a teacher. Don't just settle for the guy down the road, unless he is the one.

Regards,

salim
08-27-2007, 12:23 PM
This is a little bit of a generalisation. I think there are lots of good Aikidoka out there, they are just few and far between. Look at the Yoshinkan, if you go through the senshusei course, you deserve your shodan in a year.

However, the vast amount of @#$% on youtube says that there are a lot of people who have no Budo in there Aikido.

I think it is up to the students of Aikido, student choose the teacher, and you can't teach with out students. I found people I can respect, and who know their stuff, and I go out of my way if I have to seek out a teacher. Don't just settle for the guy down the road, unless he is the one.

Regards,

Oops, you're right, I should've been more specific. I agree with you regarding the majority of the @/*%$E@ that you see on youtube.
Although reading some Aikido sites and blogs you never here the importance of self defense being of great importance, definitely not the focus.

Yes, Yoseikan, Yoshikhan and Shodokan Aikido bring more focus towards self defense, but most Aikidoist either don't know they exist or they are really not respected in the Aikido world due to there heavy focus of combat and self defense.

The Aikikai organization is what most Aikidoist recognize as Aikido, and everything else is not Aikido really. It's a mentality that's the problem. Pacifism is what the Aikikai organizations preach as being Aikido, thus what people perceive as Aikido. So if it does not have the roots of pacifism then is not Aikido, which is totally incorrect.
The original Aikido was combat and for self defense.

wildaikido
08-27-2007, 01:05 PM
Oops, you're right, I should've been more specific. I agree with you regarding the majority of the @/*%$E@ that you see on youtube.
Although reading some Aikido sites and blogs you never here the importance of self defense being of great importance, definitely not the focus.

That's were I am lucky, since I am at a Self Defence School. Hence the aim of our Aikido is self defence.

Yes, Yoseikan, Yoshikhan and Shodokan Aikido bring more focus towards self defense, but most Aikidoist either don't know they exist or they are really not respected in the Aikido world due to there heavy focus of combat and self defense.

Well fair is fair, I don't respect some in the Aikikai, of Ki Society (disclaimer, I said SOME, and it is a joke). The facts speak for themselves. O'Sensei spent most of his time in Iwama, not at hombu. Hombu was mostly directed by Kisshomaru and Tohei, and both men had very different ideas about Aikido. This fact is seen in their training and teaching.

The Aikikai organization is what most Aikidoist recognize as Aikido, and everything else is not Aikido really. It's a mentality that's the problem. Pacifism is what the Aikikai organizations preach as being Aikido, thus what people perceive as Aikido. So if it does not have the roots of pacifism then is not Aikido, which is totally incorrect.
The original Aikido was combat and for self defense.

That is because it has the most members. But more followers does not make it the only Aikido school. I believe Mochizuki Kancho grasped the true concept of Budo. Someone said "for there to be peace, you must prepare for war." The conversation Mochizuki had with O'Sensei after he returned from Japan sums up what O'Sensei thought on the matter. He said that we must train to be strong, but we must not be concerned with winning. Mochizuki Kancho relates this to Darwinism, in that the strong survive and the weak don’t. This is also why Mochizuki Kancho promoted the fact that Jigoro Kano did not what his budo turned into an Olympic sport, since the idea of winning and losing is contrary to the principle of mutual welfare and prosperity.

At this point it is worth noting the definition of the term shiai, which Jigoro Kano used. He replaced the old kanji, "to the death" with his modern budo term "to try together". Hence the essence of competition (shiai) in Judo (and Aikido), should be for us to try our techniques together, but in a beneficial way. That is with a resisting partner to test us.

salim
08-27-2007, 03:01 PM
At this point it is worth noting the definition of the term shiai, which Jigoro Kano used. He replaced the old kanji, "to the death" with his modern budo term "to try together". Hence the essence of competition (shiai) in Judo (and Aikido), should be for us to try our techniques together, but in a beneficial way. That is with a resisting partner to test us.[/QUOTE]

Good example of testing technique.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vSDyLY-KySo

philippe willaume
08-28-2007, 05:38 AM
At this point it is worth noting the definition of the term shiai, which Jigoro Kano used. He replaced the old kanji, "to the death" with his modern budo term "to try together". Hence the essence of competition (shiai) in Judo (and Aikido), should be for us to try our techniques together, but in a beneficial way. That is with a resisting partner to test us.

Good example of testing technique.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vSDyLY-KySo[/QUOTE]
Hello
I do like that way of training, at least once and a while.
I do totally agree that sparing, in order to test technique should be done without completion (As in the Olympics judo understanding of competition).

But on the other hand, we need to be aware of the side effect of the rules and promotion of resistance when we use to spar.
It is very obvious with the weapons usage in that last video. Sparing will always be limited by and geared towards by rules that are being used.
This is not a reflection on the participant, the style, the weapon usage or the video in itself, it is a promotional video. Not a sparing video per say but it helps to illustrate my point.

Each time we have the two swords/sticks versus the two handed sword, the practitioner accept a debilitating or killing blow in order to get his technique in.

There seems to be no entering strategy as far as weapon are concerned, (funnily enough this not really the case with open hands), ie they do entrer without concerne for their own safety hence there is no control of the opponent option and they are doing the cardinal sin to extend their hands to break the distance, offering a massive one time counter to your opponent. The best you can expect from entry like that is a double kill.

It is not bad or wrong to spar like that (discounting hands/arm shot or ignoring counters to the entrance), the logic behind it being that it enable the fight to develops pass the sniping/jockeying for position.
But you need to be aware that you are bypassing something that will have definitive consequences in the actual usage of the weapon.

So we need to bear in mind if is it a realistic or meaningful resistance and what we are getting from the resistance

Daniel Ranger-Holt
08-28-2007, 06:14 AM
but if someone pulls you down, you have to get them off you quick to deal with the next guy. This is where one on one ground work can complement a multiple opponent art like Aikido.



Ive given this a lot of thought as well, and i think i need to try, at least try BJJ solidly for about 6 months or so, just to see how i feel it could compliment my Aikido. If i got took down, i would have no idea what to do, and with over a year three times a week of training for what i joined Aikido for Self Defence, not knowing what do do at all if i go down isn't good enough. Obviously i wouldnt want to fight, let alone go down, but if i do? It's just a case of finding BJJ in particular school near me..time for some googling.

However the idea of giving up one for the other wouldnt make sense. Aikido will give me some chance against more than one person, and a grappling art would help me if i go down. My Aikido wouldnt be good enough for me to avoid possibly going down in a fight for a good 5 or so years? thats too long IMO i would feel comfortable knowing what to do now. In both arts im not going to be standing slugging it out, something i find brutal and uneeded.

I am going to be on the doors in a few months, if all goes to plan, im just thinking sensibly. After reading through a LOT of posts here at Aikiweb, theres seems to be more people practicing Aikido for some other reason, spirituality, improving your inner peace etc other than self defence...im starting to feel ALONE :straightf

I would love to speak to someone who has purely Aikido and BJJ expierience though. And no other arts. Would have a lot of questions for them.

grondahl
08-28-2007, 06:41 AM
I am going to be on the doors in a few months, if all goes to plan, im just thinking sensibly. After reading through a LOT of posts here at Aikiweb, theres seems to be more people practicing Aikido for some other reason, spirituality, improving your inner peace etc other than self defence...im starting to feel ALONE :straightf
.

How do you define "self defence"?

Daniel Ranger-Holt
08-28-2007, 07:35 AM
How do you define "self defence"?

I think you probably know what i mean by self defence, and ive touched a nerve somewhere? didn't intend to IF i did. Look, i'm in an Aikido forum, talking about me learning Aikido for self defence. So it should be fairly obvious what i mean by self defence.

Not running to the phonebox, or carrying a can of pepper spray, carrying a riot sheild etc, smiling at an attacker about to crack me one in the face or running tackle me or the "best self defence is carry a gun" zzzz im not interested in that kind of talk myself, personally.

Im talking about confidently being able to do something effective against someone who attacks me, without hurting anyone needlessly, i dont want to face the law or even the possibillity of going to jail so no punching, striking, etc..

But holding someone till they get the message or deflecting them off me till they get the message is what im looking for. On and off the ground. Im not looking to defeat anyone or any martial artist, because if anyone is good enough, or better than you, its over. But as an average guy with no fighting skills or insticts etc, id like to feel i could do something confidently...

Which is why i am considering BJJ if i find somewhere near me, and it doesnt overlap my Aikido.

wildaikido
08-28-2007, 07:46 AM
But holding someone till they get the message or deflecting them off me till they get the message is what im looking for. On and off the ground. Im not looking to defeat anyone or any martial artist, because if anyone is good enough, or better than you, its over. But as an average guy with no fighting skills or insticts etc, id like to feel i could do something confidently.
This is my definition of self defence. The person must be untrained or you are not defending yourself. If you "defend yourself" against a trained attacker, he will win, as he is attacking, and you are defending! If he is trained you must fight him (If you have not choice, my example would be defending my wife and kids). Therefore this comes under the branch of combat.

I recommend judo. If you can find a good judo instructor, who will teach you techniques and is not focused on competition, this will compliment anyone’s Aikido very well. I can only imaging there are a few people like this in England. A lot of the old old great went through England (Tani), and some old great (Abe).

Regards,

philippe willaume
08-28-2007, 08:05 AM
Hello
It is really an aside but I think that to be fair if the aim is self defence or self protection you need a striking art and a grappling art. So instead of aikido and BJJ, I would do a striking art and aikido or a striking art and BJJ. (well the BJJ “self defence” side)

All self defence relies on awareness, and that is the stuff that takes the longest time to develop.
I will use BJJ in case of a one to one and aikido when there is several of them is great on paper, however it realise totally on you being aware that there is several of them.
All the point of them being several, is that one of them can blind side you which implies making you believe that it is a one on one is an option.
If you have enough experience, you will be able to pull it off consistently but BJJ and aikido on their distinct value will not increase your awareness more than spending the same amount of time doing only aikido or only BJJ.

Other than one vs one when weapons are not accessed, Going to the ground suck in biblical proportion.
If that is no likely case for you, spending time doing ground works is not a very productive way to spend your time.
It is bit of a sweeping example but if you are a Bouncer/doorman or a woman, ground works does make lots of sense. One vs one can happens a significant % of the possible encounters.

If you are a member of the general public or working in protection (other than doorman) you are more likely to be in a one vs several or several vs several, so ground work is not that attractive of a proposition.

What I just said is absolutely not equivalent to say that BJJ, MMA or any other combat sports are useless in self defence.
In fact they can be quite useful, you are more prepared you have developed a level of awareness, and in good physical condition one v one are your bread and butter, so it can compensate for surprise, you are used to confrontation and you with enough awareness you can turn a one v several into a one v one to give you an options to flee.
As well, aikido in a several vs one situation does not make it good situation, it just make it marginally less worse.

Daniel Ranger-Holt
08-28-2007, 08:08 AM
This is my definition of self defence. The person must be untrained or you are not defending yourself.

Hmm i understand your definition but not sure if i agree with it fully. For example i've never been in a street fight in my life. By street fight i mean...my personal definition is...two people fighting for whatever reason, none of them skilled in any arts, just punching kicking human scrapping. But i know a lot of people around my area get into "scraps" every weekend after they have been out drinking or just for a laugh. Random drunks who've had more than one fight...so have some idea what happens, even its a very very basic idea, in that sence they have had more training then me. Mr NO fight at all.

Now, me, i havent had any fights since school, when i was 16 im 28 now. So if i come up against any of the type of people i describe above, i would class that as me defending myself, because in a way they are trained in some form of fighting, as low down the chain as it may be...me, i am not, at all. I may be 5'11 and a big wide dude, but...these people have more expierience than me, and as far as on the street encounters go i respect them (if thats the right word).

Therefore i would say if i face anyone like that, personally, to me...thats self defence. Whereas you say if they are attacking but are untrained, you are not defending yourself? respectfully and humbly i disagree.

wildaikido
08-28-2007, 08:08 AM
Hello
It is really an aside but I think that to be fair if the aim is self defence or self protection you need a striking art and a grappling art. So instead of aikido and BJJ, I would do a striking art and aikido or a striking art and BJJ. (well the BJJ "self defence" side)

Strange! My Aikido is a striking art, I believe O'Sensei's Aikido was a striking art!

Regards,

wildaikido
08-28-2007, 08:13 AM
Therefore i would say if i face anyone like that, personally, to me...thats self defence. Whereas you say if they are attacking but are untrained, you are not defending yourself? respectfully and humbly i disagree.

No, if they are UNTRAINED and ATTACKING it is self defence. If they are TRAINED and attacking, the mentality of defending will not be enough, you must FIGHT.

That is how I differentiate them; it is in the mental attitude, the approach, and the tactics.

A trained person attacking will overwhelm you if you "defend", you must have the superior spirit!

Regards,

Daniel Ranger-Holt
08-28-2007, 08:20 AM
Hello
It is bit of a sweeping example but if you are a Bouncer/doorman or a woman, ground works does make lots of sense. One vs one can happens a significant % of the possible encounters.

If you are a member of the general public or working in protection (other than doorman) you are more likely to be in a one vs several or several vs several, so ground work is not that attractive of a proposition.


Thanks Philippe! its why i am considering BJJ. in reality of course some people suggest to me Aikido and Judo, Aikido and Wing Chun even, some have said Aikido and Sambo (something i havent looked into really) So everyone has something different, my personal so far...most sensible crosstrain option for me would be BJJ i think. If my Aikido taught me ground work i feel i would have no need, but it doesn't i would feel exposed. So it still seems like some kind of ground control would be good for me...but as i say, everyone says something different to cross train with. I guess its best to look into them all but actively try the one i feel would suit me personally. But its a interesting discussion, thanks guys.

I will be back later to contribute, my daughter is dragging me off the pc to the park :p

Cheers.

thomanil
08-28-2007, 08:43 AM
Strange! My Aikido is a striking art, I believe O'Sensei's Aikido was a striking art!
Regards,

Good for you! Unfortunately, not every dojo has a strong focus on delivering and defending against functional strikes. If this is the case for Daniel, then I think there's great value for him in crosstraining at least a little in boxing/kickboxing/muay thai; basically any straight forward striking art where you have to deal with actually getting hit in the face on a regular basis. :)

salim
08-28-2007, 08:50 AM
Thanks Philippe! its why i am considering BJJ. in reality of course some people suggest to me Aikido and Judo, Aikido and Wing Chun even, some have said Aikido and Sambo (something i havent looked into really) So everyone has something different, my personal so far...most sensible crosstrain option for me would be BJJ i think. If my Aikido taught me ground work i feel i would have no need, but it doesn't i would feel exposed. So it still seems like some kind of ground control would be good for me...but as i say, everyone says something different to cross train with. I guess its best to look into them all but actively try the one i feel would suit me personally. But its a interesting discussion, thanks guys.

I will be back later to contribute, my daughter is dragging me off the pc to the park :p

Cheers.

You are not alone. I feel the same way. I'm more interested in self defense and the common mentality among most Aikidoist is spirituality or some deep inner meaning, which I have no interest. I'm not interest in Shinto Oomoto in the least bit and it's really a turn off to here about religion and Aikido mixing. I already have religion and don't want to here about philosophical religious principles.

philippe willaume
08-28-2007, 08:59 AM
I
Not running to the phonebox, or carrying a can of pepper spray, carrying a riot sheild etc, smiling at an attacker about to crack me one in the face or running tackle me or the "best self defence is carry a gun" zzzz im not interested in that kind of talk myself, personally.

Im talking about confidently being able to do something effective against someone who attacks me, without hurting anyone needlessly, i dont want to face the law or even the possibillity of going to jail so no punching, striking, etc..
.
Hello Daniel,
It really deepens of what job you are doing but using aikido has about the same chance of putting you into jail than striking or punching.

In most western country, it is not what you did but why you did it that will matter as far as the law is concerned.
Of course, our response needs to be proportionate to the threat but we have ruled out weapons in the question, so it has little bearing here.

You are using the example of pinning someone, or deflecting someone until they get the message.
By not removing your self, you de facto engage in a consensual fight. In most countries, the law expect you to get away from trouble when possible.
You can have good reason not to remove yourself, like presence of witness, closed circuit camera, and lighted area and so on. That is what is going to keep you out of trouble not the usage of aikido (in that case).

Hence you will need to be able to answer why you keep deflecting the guy instead of going away.

Law enforcement usually tends to assume that the guy that has the upper hand was the instigator of the fight. at the best it is going to be 50-50.

So pinning him may be a solution, but that he was the instigator still has to be demonstrated.


But holding someone till they get the message or deflecting them off me till they get the message is what im looking for. On and off the ground. Im not looking to defeat anyone or any martial artist, because if anyone is good enough, or better than you, its over. But as an average guy with no fighting skills or insticts etc, id like to feel I could do something confidently...

Which is why i am considering BJJ if i find somewhere near me, and it doesnt overlap my Aikido.
I think this is the biggest misconception about self defence/self protection.

It is not very likely to be a booting match or a challenge.
If it is the case, you are very likely to be able to walk away from it. Unless confronted with someone relatively drunk and without any mates in the same states (but in that case any martial art or combat sport will do, bearing in mind the reasonable force).

How possible and at what frequency depends where you are living.

It is very likely to be "Martial" almost in the etymological meaning of the word.
Your opponent (s) , like you will be, without fighting skills or instincts so they will try to get as many chance on their side before it starts. (If they have fighting skill, they will want to reduce your response time to the minimum).
Basically they/he will try to break the distance and capture you attention.

Basically it is much more likely to kick in at talking range than with “ oy, you, me, now on the common, handbag at two paces

philippe willaume
08-28-2007, 09:06 AM
Strange! My Aikido is a striking art, I believe O'Sensei's Aikido was a striking art!

Regards,
well mine as well, however it is not the case for all us. :-)

philippe willaume
08-28-2007, 09:15 AM
You are not alone. I feel the same way. I'm more interested in self defense and the common mentality among most Aikidoist is spirituality or some deep inner meaning, which I have no interest. I'm not interest in Shinto Oomoto in the least bit and it's really a turn off to here about religion and Aikido mixing. I already have religion and don't want to here about philosophical religious principles.

I would argue that take down and pin in aikido constitute as much ground work as reasonably possible in a multy opponent environment.
That seems the to be the same in medieval European wrestling, outside judicial duel, several vs several (or one vs several), usually with weapons availiabe, seems to have been the most likely situation for them as well.

PS and they say as well that if you (being knights in that occurrence), are attacked by 4 or 6 peasants, running away is the best option….(and that there is no shame to do it)

wildaikido
08-28-2007, 09:30 AM
I can garantee if you do something like a wrist twsit (Kote Gaeshi) on me (any throw), and I go down, you will not pin me with an Aikikai based pin. You want even turn me over! Now I am trained and will resist. Once I am on the floor, I will not let go of you. Start hitting or kicking, your coming down to the floor with me.

So from here, what do you plan to do when "my" friends are coming for you?

Aiki1
08-28-2007, 10:26 AM
I would love to speak to someone who has purely Aikido and BJJ expierience though. And no other arts. Would have a lot of questions for them.

I have taught Aikido for 25 years, and studied BJJ privately with the guy who taught for Rickson, for a few years. I have studied other stuff over the years, but not for a while now. Aikido is my art, but I love BJJ and have incorporated just the ground escapes into my style. Not any submissions, but how to get out/away.

Daniel Ranger-Holt
08-28-2007, 10:31 AM
Hmmm, ok, i dont think im explaining myself very well. Surely having some kind of grappling ability is a plus, if i am looking for straight self defence as opposed to having none.

Im not looking to be the supreme martial artist, im just saying if a confrontation was to go to the ground, with the Aikido training i am receiving i wouldnt know what to do. Which is the same for most Aikidoka?

This is why having some idea what to do on the ground would be to my advantage. Im not talking about an arm pin on a non resisting opponent i mean a scrabbling unco-operative brawler.

In reality i probably wont cross train, one the expense, two i wouldn't want to do anything unless i could do it twice a week. That would mean four nights a week martial arts, a daughter i have three days a week, and a demanding girlfriend. In reality i wouldnt really be able to fit it in, unless the classes were convienient.

Maybe training on how to not go down if grappled is what i would need. But still BJJ looks like the best option IF i was to cross train.

Phillipe can you explain my mis conception about self defense because i didn't understand what it was, cheers.

Good discussion.

Daniel Ranger-Holt
08-28-2007, 10:45 AM
Aikido is my art, but I love BJJ and have incorporated just the ground escapes into my style. Not any submissions, but how to get out/away.

This is the man i need to speak to...HOW ABOUT TEACHING ME :) Right im in the UK Luron...how far is that from you. :straightf Seriously ypu understand where i'm going though? How to escape evade a grappling situation would be a perfect addition to my Aikido training i personally feel.

If you don't midn me asking, After 20 or so years of Aikido training how confident would you feel you would have been on the ground without that additional BJJ training, if you can answer that question.

Aiki1
08-28-2007, 11:12 AM
This is the man i need to speak to...HOW ABOUT TEACHING ME :) Right im in the UK Luron...how far is that from you. :straightf Seriously you understand where i'm going though? How to escape evade a grappling situation would be a perfect addition to my Aikido training i personally feel.

If you don't mind me asking, After 20 or so years of Aikido training how confident would you feel you would have been on the ground without that additional BJJ training, if you can answer that question.

I understand. If a *good* BJJer does gets you on the ground, and that depends on your skills, **if you don't know what you're doing** they will waste you. I don't mean just any practitioner at all, but someone with skills. Anyone that tells you different hasn't been there.

Now, if you have some ground skills, depending on where they're from, that won't necessarily be the case. Some Aikido/Aikibudo styles (few) do have ground work.

I'm not into submissions. Escaping though - that's a good thing!

wildaikido
08-28-2007, 11:28 AM
I have taught Aikido for 25 years, and studied BJJ privately with the guy who taught for Rickson, for a few years. I have studied other stuff over the years, but not for a while now. Aikido is my art, but I love BJJ and have incorporated just the ground escapes into my style. Not any submissions, but how to get out/away.

Good to here. Like I said before, this sort of thing is required if you come up against multiple opponents, and one of them gets hold of you, won't let go, and trys to pull you down.

Regards,

philippe willaume
08-28-2007, 11:30 AM
I can garantee if you do something like a wrist twsit (Kote Gaeshi) on me (any throw), and I go down, you will not pin me with an Aikikai based pin. You want even turn me over! Now I am trained and will resist. Once I am on the floor, I will not let go of you. Start hitting or kicking, your coming down to the floor with me.

Hello
If it is addressed to me
I would reply that, you are a tad far, so we will probably never know.
Besides, I do not know you well enough to go down on the first date, anyway.

That being said I can not disagree with you there at least in principle.
Like the sihonague pin, I think it is there to make the technique finish pretty.
However shiho nague and kote-gaishi are relatively done in a relatively kind way. There are nastier way to apply them and the ability to recover from the throw is directly linked to how nasty you apply the technique.
(Personally, I see more shihonague and kote gaishi akin to the medieval bone breakers version of those two, so the pin is kind of frivolus)

That is how we do kote gaishi (we are not part of iwama/takemusu but we do it in a similar fashion)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP0VR2ncAgE (between 3.30 and 4:00)

For the record kote gaishi done like that is on the part with nikkio as my second most hated technique to receive (The first being jije garami koshi nague )


So from here, what do you plan to do when "my" friends are coming for you?
Not being there when and where you and them turn up. :-)

philippe willaume
08-28-2007, 11:36 AM
I have taught Aikido for 25 years, and studied BJJ privately with the guy who taught for Rickson, for a few years. I have studied other stuff over the years, but not for a while now. Aikido is my art, but I love BJJ and have incorporated just the ground escapes into my style. Not any submissions, but how to get out/away.

i have rolled around a few time (never is such fine company as your) and i have to admit is lot of fun.

I am quite intersted by the escape would you mind if i contacted you privatley?

phil

Aiki1
08-28-2007, 11:39 AM
Good to here. Like I said before, this sort of thing is required if you come up against multiple opponents, and one of them gets hold of you, won't let go, and trys to pull you down.

Regards,

I would say - already Got you down, but yea, that's the idea....

Aiki1
08-28-2007, 11:41 AM
i have rolled around a few time (never is such fine company as your) and i have to admit is lot of fun.

I am quite intersted by the escape would you mind if i contacted you privatley?

phil

Sure. By escapes I mean the basic escapes from being mounted, reversals from the guard that allow you to get up and away, and some basic knowledge of the other basic positions. Not too much, as I don't imagine too much need to know how to get out of every hold there is etc. For people who want that, they should study the whole art....

wildaikido
08-28-2007, 11:53 AM
Hello
If it is addressed to me
I would reply that, you are a tad far, so we will probably never know.
Besides, I do not know you well enough to go down on the first date, anyway.

I do travel to the UK for conferences, so it could be arranged :-). The second comment makes me :-(.


That being said I can not disagree with you there at least in principle.
Like the sihonague pin, I think it is there to make the technique finish pretty.
However shiho nague and kote-gaishi are relatively done in a relatively kind way. There are nastier way to apply them and the ability to recover from the throw is directly linked to how nasty you apply the technique.
(Personally, I see more shihonague and kote gaishi akin to the medieval bone breakers version of those two, so the pin is kind of frivolus)

Ah, but the Aikikai have a very pacifistic view, hence they would not teach to break the wrist. But the point is still, if you have someone who can fall fast enough because he is trained it won't matter that you tried to break the wrist.

That is how we do kote gaishi (we are not part of iwama/takemusu but we do it in a similar fashion)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP0VR2ncAgE (between 3.30 and 4:00)

I look forward to watching the vid but I am shaped at the moment (stupid crap broadband in Australia). I have trained at the Iwama School here, and their techniques are leaps and bounds above those of the Aikikai. I have adopted their turn of technique for kote gaeshi but in Yoseikan the standard pin from kote gaeshi is a juji gatame (arm bar) from judo.

For the record kote gaishi done like that is on the part with nikkio as my second most hated technique to receive (The first being jije garami koshi nague )

Just want to ask for more info. We have a similar technique we call Genseki Otoshi (rock drop) where you have ukes arms in a juji nage, but you throw them like Seoi Nage (shoulder throw).

Not being there when and where you and them turn up. :-)

That is avoiding the point. Saying it won't happen won't stop it from happening (obviously I am not talking about me :-) I would never do something like that; I am talking about the guys you never want to meet in a pub or on the street who insist.

Regards,

wildaikido
08-28-2007, 11:55 AM
I would say - already Got you down, but yea, that's the idea....

For the sake of conversation (as in I could click on the link, but I though I would ask), where is your school located Larry, I try to be in LA as much as possible for training purposes.

Regards,

Aiki1
08-28-2007, 12:00 PM
For the sake of conversation (as in I could click on the link, but I though I would ask), where is your school located Larry, I try to be in LA as much as possible for training purposes.

Regards,

I'm in Santa Monica. Come by anytime. :-) Don't expect a lot of BJJ training though, there's a lot of other stuff to do that takes precedence....

wildaikido
08-28-2007, 12:08 PM
I'm in Santa Monica. Come by anytime. :-) Don't expect a lot of BJJ training though, there's a lot of other stuff to do that takes precedence....

I wasn't thinking that. Besides, if I want BJJ training I will swing by Torrance and work out with the Gracie's!

I just interested at what regular training is like with someone who sounds very practical themselves. Especially Ki Aikido (sorry had to clip I couldn't resist). We don't have any Ki Aikido here in WA, the closest is 2000 miles away on the other side of the country. I would love to see some practical Ki Aikido, I mean I respect Tohei Sensei, he had powerful technique, I just haven't seen it from others.

Regards,

philippe willaume
08-28-2007, 12:10 PM
Hmmm, ok, i dont think im explaining myself very well. Surely having some kind of grappling ability is a plus, if i am looking for straight self defence as opposed to having none.
Phillipe can you explain my mis conception about self defense because i didn't understand what it was, cheers.

Good discussion.

Well English is not my first language, so I am probably ultra clear.
;-)

In absolute term yes you are right, it is better to be competent in ground fight. But self -defence is not an absolute context.
In relative terms and for self defence/self protection when will you need that?
In other terms how likely it is for you to end up on the floor and is there any thing you will be able to do about it. Most of us are not professional and we have a limited amount of training time.

IE is it worth investing time for the return you will get.

If you are in a part of the world where one v one are likely and there is a relatively safe way to recognise them. Then it is worth starting BJJ
Bouncers for examples are in that case.
You will have one v one, you opponent may be a skilful grappler and in the case of a one vs many, you can hold them off the time the cavalry arrives.

If you are in a part of the world where you are likely to have situation where it is one v several (or several v several), you probably can spend your time on something more productive for you than BJJ.
We are outside the two case where bjj is really useful it is not one on one and there may be cavalry in the vicinity or not.
In all likely hood, unless you are very good at BJJ (but in that case BJJ is your primary martial arts), the best result is that you will marginally delay the moment where they will gang-kick your head in whilst he is keeping you bussy.

It has nothing to do with BJJ being useful or useless; it is just a matter of what tactical choice it offers in your situation. Ie available training time vs occasion to use it.

In that second case it is probably time better spend to work of weapons defence than ground work or striking strategy to prevent an opponent to close in or to escape take down attempts or escape during the transition takedown groundwork (but if your oppoenet is good that will be well integrated in his game , hence difficult to escape him at that stage)

Those last two are just example; does that make more sense.

Phil

deepsoup
08-28-2007, 12:26 PM
Yes, Yoseikan, Yoshikhan and Shodokan Aikido bring more focus towards self defense,
Well, at least as far as Shodokan is concerned, I think I'd take issue with this a little bit. The focus is practical, right enough, but there isn't a specific focus on 'self defence' unless a particular teacher or class decides to go that way. (For example the work that the Yoshinkan and Shodokan dojos do with various police forces.)
The Shodokan 'competitive' randori is not intended to develop 'self defence' skills, its intended to develop aikido skills. Its a subtle difference, but an important one imo.

This is my definition of self defence. The person must be untrained or you are not defending yourself. If you "defend yourself" against a trained attacker, he will win, as he is attacking, and you are defending! If he is trained you must fight him
This seems like semantic hair-splitting, and a bit of a weird definition to me, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

A lot of the old old great went through England (Tani), and some old great (Abe).
Not sure about 'a lot' of the old old greats. If you mean Yukio Tani, he was pretty much unique in these islands back then. (As was Kenshiro Abbe in his time - primarily a judo instructor, but incidentally the first to teach aikido, kyudo, kendo and karate here.)

Ah, but the Aikikai have a very pacifistic view, hence they would not teach to break the wrist.
I think you need to be a bit careful about generalising here. The Aikikai is a very broad organisation, stylistically speaking. There are a lot of shihans there, some doing flowery stuff, others less so.

I have trained at the Iwama School here, and their techniques are leaps and bounds above those of the Aikikai. See, this is what I mean. Until very recently Iwama was Aikikai.

wildaikido
08-28-2007, 12:36 PM
IE is it worth investing time for the return you will get.

Hopefully no one studying Aikido actually wants to fight or even have to defend themselves. But if you are investing in an "insurance policy" and you choose to to take the flood cover because you live in an arid region, and then the rains come, you have nothing. Hence if on of several people you have to defend yourself from, as YOU are saying is most likely (I would love to see some numbers on this) then you need to train with multiple partners, have one grab hold of you drag you down, and then try and deal with the others. Look at the shodan test of Steven Seagal. That is what you need to deal with. I would say after twenty years your need to escape from the ground will decrease since your stand up has improved so much, but in the mean time... This is why we have strikes, sutemi, sweeps and ground fighting in Yoseikan, because in the 50's Mochizuki's Aikido alone was not good enough to overcome his challengers in France. So he used his karate and judo. He would always test O'Sensei, so obviously Aikido worked for him. Look at modern Yoseikan Budo, they have gone even further in this direction. But I am sure that Mochizuki Kancho would have easily overcome his son or any of his students with their new methods of fighting. Hence, Mochizuki Kancho's techniques were better than Hiroo Mochizuki's techniques, and O'Sensei's techniques were better than Mochizuki Kancho's. So the goal is O'Sensei, but you have to train at lower levels to develop true Aikido, you don't just emulate O'Sensei's techniques, because he could do them with a resisting opponent, as Mochizuki Kancho would always test him, and O'Sensei would say, "Mochizuki! I have to watch you."

Regards,

wildaikido
08-28-2007, 12:48 PM
This seems like semantic hair-splitting, and a bit of a weird definition to me, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

I think this is a very important distinction, if you have a self defence mentality against a person who is trained you have no hope. If some random guy just swings a telegraphed haymaker at you, hence he is not trained; you can do what ever you want to defend yourself. But if someone puts there hands up starts dancing and leading with jabs to test your defence, so he can set up his hook or cross, you must attack, you must overwhelm his spirit with yours, you must enter, and then you can do the techniques that are applicable.

Not sure about 'a lot' of the old old greats. If you mean Yukio Tani, he was pretty much unique in these islands back then. (As was Kenshiro Abbe in his time - primarily a judo instructor, but incidentally the first to teach aikido, kyudo, kendo and karate here.)

I would have hoped that these men would have left behind some sort of legacy of great Budo. I know of a guy in Scotland who was a student on Abbe, and he in a strong Aikidoka.

I think you need to be a bit careful about generalising here. The Aikikai is a very broad organisation, stylistically speaking. There are a lot of shihans there, some doing flowery stuff, others less so.

I think the Aikikai from the top down, has a definite direction it wants Aikido to go in. Those who are on the out are in the minority, and will soon retire and be replace with people from the current regimes mentality.

See, this is what I mean. Until very recently Iwama was Aikikai.

I think after the recent events that have happened in Iwama, Iwama was never Aikikai! Other wise what happened would not have happened!

Aiki1
08-28-2007, 12:49 PM
I wasn't thinking that. Besides, if I want BJJ training I will swing by Torrance and work out with the Gracie's!

I just interested at what regular training is like with someone who sounds very practical themselves. Especially Ki Aikido (sorry had to clip I couldn't resist). We don't have any Ki Aikido here in WA, the closest is 2000 miles away on the other side of the country. I would love to see some practical Ki Aikido, I mean I respect Tohei Sensei, he had powerful technique, I just haven't seen it from others.

Regards,

Although I more or less come fromt Ki Aikido originally, we have gone many other places since.... I am totally into Ki though....

wildaikido
08-28-2007, 12:51 PM
Although I more or less come fromt Ki Aikido originally, we have gone many other places since.... I am totally into Ki though....

Arn't we all in Ai KI do :)

Daniel Ranger-Holt
08-28-2007, 12:58 PM
:straightf - Hmmmm



IE is it worth investing time for the return you will get.



Yeah i suppose by that method of thinking its not worth me investing so much time in Aikido when the chances are i wont be in a fight. I've gone all my adult life without fighting, 13 or so years. Not once.



In other terms how likely it is for you to end up on the floor and is there any thing you will be able to do about it.



Well if you have no grappling trainng at all, your chances of doing anything about it (being on the ground) are minimal. If you have some they increase. It just seems blatantly obvious to me.

However i'm not looking to change your views which is how some debates end up, i have no need to my friend, im just thinking about what is practical for me. Being a doorman in a few months, and how i feel helpless if a scuffle was to take me to the ground after studying Aikido for a bit, i dont feel now, thats good enough.

Am i supposed to carry on feeling helpless because statisically i wont go to the floor or, because its not an "absolute" i will go down. All that kind of talk washes over me. I think its a case of what i think would work best for me, and what makes sense in my own head, as well as taking on the views of those such as yourself my sensei and higher grades.

As i said, any serious crosstraining for me really is out of the picture, i dont have the time realistically. But i do wonder as i said. Perhaps my confidence in my Aikido will increase as time goes on, as as someone said i wont even worry about going to the ground.

philippe willaume
08-28-2007, 01:10 PM
I do travel to the UK for conferences, so it could be arranged :-). The second comment makes me :-(.
,

well if you come often enough it may change :-)
we are close to london, you can contact me privatly.


Ah, but the Aikikai have a very pacifistic view, hence they would not teach to break the wrist. But the point is still, if you have someone who can fall fast enough because he is trained it won't matter that you tried to break the wrist.
I look forward to watching the vid but I am shaped at the moment (stupid crap broadband in Australia). I have trained at the Iwama School here, and their techniques are leaps and bounds above those of the Aikikai. I have adopted their turn of technique for kote gaeshi but in Yoseikan the standard pin from kote gaeshi is a juji gatame (arm bar) from judo.
,
That is the one with our leg across his chest and using the hyper extension of the arm, his elbow about our hips or thigh. Right
In the video, and what we use there is a similar principle to turn Uke over.
But the weakness of the pin is here you are right. That being said, I can rarely escape it.
With there about similar grade or higher grade we put more resistance but may be not as much as you describe. (without meeting it is hard to say)


Just want to ask for more info. We have a similar technique we call Genseki Otoshi (rock drop) where you have ukes arms in a juji nage, but you throw them like Seoi Nage (shoulder throw).

This is done exactly like that in medieval wrestling as well. So I associated it with jije garami koshy. I think we have two version one with and without the shoulder but I need to check which is what.
In any case we have version of shiho nague that looks like ippon seoi nage usually done on the ura side and the arm in hyper extension.


That is avoiding the point. Saying it won't happen won't stop it from happening (obviously I am not talking about me :-) I would never do something like that; I am talking about the guys you never want to meet in a pub or on the street who insist.
Regards,
I believe that lots of situation can be avoided by avoiding the 3 stupid ( doing stupid things in stupid places with stupid peoples), but as you said perfectly innocent place can fill with the said 3 stupid at the drop of the hat.
If push comes to shove, well, if one mum has to cry it might as well not be mine.

:-)
phil

philippe willaume
08-28-2007, 01:18 PM
:straightf - Hmmmm

Yeah i suppose by that method of thinking its not worth me investing so much time in Aikido when the chances are i wont be in a fight. I've gone all my adult life without fighting, 13 or so years. Not once.

Well if you have no grappling trainng at all, your chances of doing anything about it (being on the ground) are minimal. If you have some they increase. It just seems blatantly obvious to me.

However i'm not looking to change your views which is how some debates end up, i have no need to my friend, im just thinking about what is practical for me. Being a doorman in a few months, and how i feel helpless if a scuffle was to take me to the ground after studying Aikido for a bit, i dont feel now, thats good enough.

Am i supposed to carry on feeling helpless because statisically i wont go to the floor or, because its not an "absolute" i will go down. All that kind of talk washes over me. I think its a case of what i think would work best for me, and what makes sense in my own head, as well as taking on the views of those such as yourself my sensei and higher grades.

As i said, any serious crosstraining for me really is out of the picture, i dont have the time realistically. But i do wonder as i said. Perhaps my confidence in my Aikido will increase as time goes on, as as someone said i wont even worry about going to the ground.
hum are we not saying the same thing here?
ie
If you are in a part of the world where one v one are likely and there is a relatively safe way to recognise them. Then it is worth starting BJJ
Bouncers for examples are in that case.
You will have one v one, you opponent may be a skilful grappler and in the case of a one vs many, you can hold them off the time the cavalry arrives.
phil

wildaikido
08-28-2007, 01:29 PM
That is the one with our leg across his chest and using the hyper extension of the arm, his elbow about our hips or thigh. Right
In the video, and what we use there is a similar principle to turn Uke over.
But the weakness of the pin is here you are right. That being said, I can rarely escape it.
With there about similar grade or higher grade we put more resistance but may be not as much as you describe. (without meeting it is hard to say)

Correct technique. We do this because a smart uke will retract his arm and grasp it with his other. Hence turning him over even with the Iwama method cannot be done. Judo has techniques to deal with people resisting the juji gatame, hence if he resists we can still do the pin.

This is done exactly like that in medieval wrestling as well. So I associated it with jije garami koshy. I think we have two version one with and without the shoulder but I need to check which is what.
In any case we have version of shiho nague that looks like ippon seoi nage usually done on the ura side and the arm in hyper extension.

I don't like the shiho nage koshi gaeshi, it a killer :(

I believe that lots of situation can be avoided by avoiding the 3 stupid ( doing stupid things in stupid places with stupid peoples), but as you said perfectly innocent place can fill with the said 3 stupid at the drop of the hat.
If push comes to shove, well, if one mum has to cry it might as well not be mine.

That’s a great saying, I may use it. I think it was in this thread that I mentioned I have been in two self defence situations; both were because I was with stupid people doing stupid things :). I like to think that I am not training to defend myself, but to protect my family.

Regards,

BTW, I am half way through the vid of Saito Sensei, I am adding it to my favourite. This is the first time I have seen footage of someone doing the suwari waza from Budo Renshu! COOL!

grondahl
08-28-2007, 02:17 PM
See, this is what I mean. Until very recently Iwama was Aikikai.

I would say that the vast majority of Iwama style students still belong to Aikikai. The majority of the senior students of M.Saito are still affiliated to Aikikai, both in the USA and Europe (Witt, Alexander, Goto, Hendricks, Tom, Evenås,Corralini, Andersson, Toutain, Seargant, De Quiros, Kessler, etc..).

deepsoup
08-28-2007, 02:46 PM
if you have a self defence mentality against a person who is trained you have no hope.
Like I said, semantic quibbling*. Whatever I do to defend myself, be it reactive, proactive or whatever is 'self defence' by definition.

But if someone puts there hands up starts dancing and leading with jabs to test your defence, so he can set up his hook or cross, you must attack
Nope, I must defend myself.
Attacking, entering, etc., is one form my self defence may take, not the only one. I wouldn't want to replace my 'self defence' mentality with an 'attacking' mentality, since that closes off other options.

Its also not entirely a moot point that whatever I do in self defence is legal, whereas an 'attacking mentality' lays me open to criminal prosecution.

(Of course, since I'm more interested in budo than in self-defence, what I'd really like to acheive is no mentality. Mushin mugamae! Maybe someday. :))

Those who are on the out are in the minority, and will soon retire and be replace with people from the current regimes mentality.
You're a bit of a conspiracy theorist, I see. I'm not involved with the Aikikai personally, but this just doesn't ring true. You credit the powers that be at the aikikai with the kind of control over its many shihans that would make herding cats look like a walk in the park.

Sean
x

* There's a hint of macho posturing about it too. Inevitable I suppose, that a thread with BJJ mentioned in its title should drift that way as it rambles on.

Demetrio Cereijo
08-28-2007, 03:15 PM
I would say that the vast majority of Iwama style students still belong to Aikikai. The majority of the senior students of M.Saito are still affiliated to Aikikai, both in the USA and Europe (Witt, Alexander, Goto, Hendricks, Tom, Evenås,Corralini, Andersson, Toutain, Seargant, De Quiros, Kessler, etc..).

Afaik Toutain Sensei has left Saito Hitohiro's Shinshin Aiki Shuren Kai and founded his own organization.

Ron Tisdale
08-28-2007, 04:09 PM
This thread has improved! Graham Wild, thanks for your contributions. I don't agree with everything you say, but it is quite refreshing to read your thoughts.

Best,
Ron

grondahl
08-28-2007, 04:16 PM
Afaik Toutain Sensei has left Saito Hitohiro's Shinshin Aiki Shuren Kai and founded his own organization.

It seems so. My bad.

Aristeia
08-28-2007, 04:42 PM
I would love to speak to someone who has purely Aikido and BJJ expierience though. And no other arts. Would have a lot of questions for them.I'm your huckleberry. Ask away.

Aristeia
08-28-2007, 04:54 PM
In other terms how likely it is for you to end up on the floor and is there any thing you will be able to do about it. Most of us are not professional and we have a limited amount of training time.

IE is it worth investing time for the return you will get.
In terms of return on training time investment, BJJ is one of the best ROI's there is. With regular training over 3-6 months you can have a *significant* advantage over others on the ground. Watch the early ufcs - it wasn't just the guys fighting Royce that went to the ground, almost everyone did. It's a *very* common occurrance in fights even if no one plans to go there. If self defence is what you are after you *must* have a ground strategy. The good news is it doesn't take very long to get there.

mathewjgano
08-28-2007, 05:02 PM
... It's a *very* common occurrance in fights even if no one plans to go there. If self defence is what you are after you *must* have a ground strategy.

I agree. There's only one constant force in our lives I can think of: gravity.

Daniel Ranger-Holt
08-28-2007, 05:37 PM
In terms of return on training time investment, BJJ is one of the best ROI's there is. With regular training over 3-6 months you can have a *significant* advantage over others on the ground. Watch the early ufcs - it wasn't just the guys fighting Royce that went to the ground, almost everyone did. It's a *very* common occurrance in fights even if no one plans to go there. If self defence is what you are after you *must* have a ground strategy. The good news is it doesn't take very long to get there.

You've answered a lot of my questions there my friend. Is it worth it from the perspective of someone who has studied aikido for a while. How long roughly with regulat training and a enthusiatic learner would it take me to get the basics.

Does cross training with BJJ confuse or mess with you Aikido? I have never cross trained. In reality as opposed to questions i'd need to physically see then ask questions i guess...cant find no where near me thats BJJ though at the moment. Hmmm this one will play on my mind for a bit i think.

Aristeia
08-28-2007, 09:38 PM
To give you some perspective on me I taught Aikido for around 10 years and now run my own BJJ organisation.
I never found the two interfered with each other. It's really the perfect situation they have a lot in common strategically but although the movements are different they don't contaminate because one is on the ground and one is on the feet so you're always very clear which mode you're in. Which isn't to say there's not the odd time as uke you'll be tempted to keep going after the throw or as nage finish a sumi otoshi with a nice armbar and similar.

Here's the danger though. Yes you can learn as much ground as you need in a pretty short space of time - 6 months 2-3 times a week at a good school will take you a long way with a moderate amount of co-ordination. But it's addictive. So you will keep going in most cases. Many people fall in love with it and stop doing what they were doing before. 80% of the people I train with that started cross training in BJJ from something else are now doing BJJ exclusively. So there you go.

wildaikido
08-28-2007, 11:19 PM
This thread has improved! Graham Wild, thanks for your contributions. I don't agree with everything you say, but it is quite refreshing to read your thoughts.

Best,
Ron

I am glad I can be amussing to some.

I will say that I am pushing my points a little to much, as someone mentioned before, I am not here to convert anyone, I like to develop thoughts. Hopefully someone may grasp the idea of defending yourself against an untrained person, and trying to defend yourself against a trained person.

From the dictionary.

Defend:
to ward off attack from; guard against assault or injury

Regards,

Roman Kremianski
08-29-2007, 09:06 AM
I think people should have the very basics covered on the ground. I'm not saying join up BJJ and start putting people to sleep with triangles, but get your basic guard, sweeps and position control. Enough for you to

a) Not get mounted and pounded
b) Get up and leave

Study videos of situations on the street that went to the ground, and see what everyone's doing.

philippe willaume
08-29-2007, 09:15 AM
In terms of return on training time investment, BJJ is one of the best ROI's there is. With regular training over 3-6 months you can have a *significant* advantage over others on the ground. Watch the early ufcs - it wasn't just the guys fighting Royce that went to the ground, almost everyone did. It's a *very* common occurrance in fights even if no one plans to go there. If self defence is what you are after you *must* have a ground strategy. The good news is it doesn't take very long to get there.

Well
My point is not that BJJ is not useful or efficient. In fact I believe that if you already know BJJ. It will help you a lot in self defence.
But there is no denying that BJJ or ground work in general is designed to be use against a single opponent, usually in booting conditions.
Here we are talking about ground work in the context of self defence.

My point is that if it self defence you are after, it is not necessarily the thing you want to spend time in. and not practicing a ground game is not equivalent to not have a ground strategy. Look at MMA matches nowadays, some never go to the ground some do.

As you have my notice my answer was two fold.
There are case where I said that yes ground skills are very important it is, and others where I said it was not worth the effort.

In what self defence situation will we use our ground skill exactly?

Obviously in cases that are close to booting match or when we are sure that there only one opponent.

But in a multiple attacker, going to the ground willingly is not a sensible course of action.
And being taken to the ground is going to be your undoing, regardless how good you are on the ground.
yes there is case where you know that help is at hand or if you ground game is much better than your opponent (if you are a proper BJJ guy) you will be able to delay the other opponents enough for help to come and or set up a verbal/psychological fence.
But in that case you need more than 6 month in BJJ and or have help handy.

And according to the part of the world you living in, fighting against a single opponent can be inexistent or relatively common (all that pondered by your occupation).

You can not make a rule about self-defence
If facing several opponents is the most common encounter. It makes more sense to work on defence against being taken down (or the escape to get up that Larry mentioned) than working on what to do when you are on the floor.

If we take graham kote geishi followed by juji gatame, it is a very sound combination, it works well it is easy to apply.
That does not prevent it to be a bad idea if the person you are doing it has friends with him and you don’t.
And the above is not excluding the very same technique being a good idea if graham is dealing with Johnny-no-mate on the booze.

phil

Budd
08-29-2007, 09:25 AM
The other thing to be aware of in a ground grappling situation is that certain training paradagms automatically assume that both opponents are unarmed. This doesn't lessen the validity of either training paradigm, but it's something to keep in mind. I've been to BJJ and Aikido schools that had a certain number of law enforcement guys and they're typically very good about addressing that.

wildaikido
08-29-2007, 10:04 AM
But in a multiple attacker, going to the ground willingly is not a sensible course of action.
And being taken to the ground is going to be your undoing, regardless how good you are on the ground.
yes there is case where you know that help is at hand or if you ground game is much better than your opponent (if you are a proper BJJ guy) you will be able to delay the other opponents enough for help to come and or set up a verbal/psychological fence.
But in that case you need more than 6 month in BJJ and or have help handy.

And according to the part of the world you living in, fighting against a single opponent can be inexistent or relatively common (all that pondered by your occupation).

You can not make a rule about self-defence
If facing several opponents is the most common encounter. It makes more sense to work on defence against being taken down (or the escape to get up that Larry mentioned) than working on what to do when you are on the floor.

If we take graham kote geishi followed by juji gatame, it is a very sound combination, it works well it is easy to apply.
That does not prevent it to be a bad idea if the person you are doing it has friends with him and you don't.
And the above is not excluding the very same technique being a good idea if graham is dealing with Johnny-no-mate on the booze.

I think I would clarify my point by saying, just learning to escape from the mount or guard is not really sufficient. Just like training Kata is not enough to make Aikido effective, there must be Randori The same is true for Ne Waza, if you think just learning how to make people let go is enough, it won't be.

Obviously I am not going into juji gatame out of habit. I respect the limitation of Ne Waza (ie it is no good with multiple opponents). We have multiple pins for all of our techniques. However I think, just as you do, that multiple opponents is very luckily. If they try and take me down, I know what I am doing. Hence the reason I recommend Judo (or BJJ if you want). I am not talking about fighting one guy on the floor while his friends are kicking me in the head; that is stupid. I am taking about getting that guy of me so I can deal with the others.

I would not even use juji gatame on Johnny-no-mate on the booze, I would be turning him over and pin him in the “regular” method, face down. If I had to use the juji gatame, it would be to pop the elbow nice and quick; then I would deal with other opponents without needing to worry about the guy on the floor.

Regards,

philippe willaume
08-29-2007, 12:29 PM
Hello Graham
It was nothing personal.
It was just that the technique you mentioned is really handy to illustrate my point.

There is something I don’t really get in you mail.
We are talking about multiple opponents, so I assume that for the rest of the post
I totally agree with you the limitation of ne- waza but on the other hand I understand that you are saying that you would do juji gatame to pop is elbow (which a good policy in my book) and then deal with the others.
I see that as contradicting each other, I man we are on the floor to do juji gatame and if the other opponent mattered before than they can be on us before completion or at least before we get up.

I am pretty sure it is not what you meant but that is what I read 
(Sorry for being thick, if you want you can PM me because I am not sure that it is relevant to the thread as such)

Budd,
I have tried with BJJ practicing nephew
If the knife was drawn before, BJJ was pretty useless but may be it can be used as an option to jam the draw.
The idea comes from medieval manual, they advocates coming to wrestling before the other can access his weapon. (and from a former discussion here)
It is not an exhaustive trial only 1:30-2:00 hours and it was on a lawn

We worked until submission or repeat stabbing.
The knife holder tried to use bjj or aikido (and punching/pressure points) or any craftiness to get the weapon hand free, but the idea was to free the weapon to stab. If possible with a temporary pin (i.e. a pin that does not really hold but give enough time to hit a valuable target)

We did taking the guard to jam the draw (dagger in from on the side or in the back with a soft fence to cover the draw)
There was a bit of faffing about but we manage to find a safe way to submission.
Basically jamming the knife hand and isolating it by controlling the head.

And we did from a front mount (people usually pay good money for that in London).
And accessing the weapon makes it easier for the hold before the pounding or just sits on the hips and arm across the throat (still jamming the draw (we just did side and front draw for the dagger)

Has anybody else tried that before?

wildaikido
08-29-2007, 12:53 PM
Hello Graham
It was nothing personal.
It was just that the technique you mentioned is really handy to illustrate my point.

I know that, I just picked a combination of techniques that people should recognise, if not they could easily look them up on google image.

There is something I don't really get in you mail.
We are talking about multiple opponents, so I assume that for the rest of the post
I totally agree with you the limitation of ne- waza but on the other hand I understand that you are saying that you would do juji gatame to pop is elbow (which a good policy in my book) and then deal with the others.
I see that as contradicting each other, I man we are on the floor to do juji gatame and if the other opponent mattered before than they can be on us before completion or at least before we get up.

This then suggest that we should train with two man randori, have one pull you down, then try to get him of you before the other can do anything to damaging. If you get the guy on the bottom into a arm bar (juji gatame ude hishige or any other ude hishige [rokkyo]) or an ude garami, you can assume you have popped his shoulder or elbow hence he is gone. Then deal with the second guy. Ideally we would just want to escape the first one, deal with the second guy while the first is standing up. That would be ideal. The whole point of insurance (as you mentioned) is that it is for those none ideal situations.

I must point out that my point is we shouldn't need to cross train in BJJ as the thread suggests, as some of these "tricks" are important enough to include in our training.

The best example is with Tohei Sensei. He has these wonderful demos with him flinging his ukes about, but when the American Judoka challenged him (in Rendezvous with Adventure) he had a resisting opponent. Hence no nice pretty techniques.

Regards,

Aristeia
08-29-2007, 12:59 PM
Well
My point is not that BJJ is not useful or efficient. In fact I believe that if you already know BJJ. It will help you a lot in self defence.
But there is no denying that BJJ or ground work in general is designed to be use against a single opponent, usually in booting conditions.
Here we are talking about ground work in the context of self defence.

Sorry Phil, but you are just wrong.
Multiple attackers make it *more* likely you will need a ground game. If it's a struggle to hold your feet against one person, what makes you think you can do it against three? Because the reality is in a mulitple situation they do not wait their turn like they do in jiyu waza - they bumrush you all at once, and brother you are going down. If you don't know what to do when you're down there you have an even more serious problem than before.

With some training however you have some choices. Many sweeps and reversals can be performed *very* quickly on untrained opponents. Sweeping and getting to knee ride while putting up a verbal fence can be a very effective way of keeping the other potential attackers at bay. In some situations you may choose to go underneath and use one attacker as a shield -I know several people that have done this effectively.

To think that just because you've done some three person jiyu waza in aikido means that is a winning strategy against multiples is naive.

Also the best way to avoid being taken down is to learn takedowns and wrestling.

Finally having a ground game you are confident in will help your standup. when there is less fear of the clinch and the ground you can perform your standup techniques with less hesitation and total commitment which makes for a fearsome irimi!

wildaikido
08-29-2007, 01:06 PM
Also the best way to avoid being taken down is to learn takedowns and wrestling.

Hence the reason I suggest Judo, is has good techniques to complement stand up Aikido, and it gives you a chance to do and resist takedown. Plus you get the MOST effective ground fighting experience (if you have the right teacher) :D

Aristeia
08-29-2007, 01:27 PM
Hence the reason I suggest Judo, is has good techniques to complement stand up Aikido,

Judo's not a bad option. I personally found however that when I dabbled in it I had contamination issues with Aikido. Judo's balance work can be quite different - more hoppy at times doing things like lifting one leg high off the mat while driving your own head down to complete a throw (such as uchi mata). Nothing wrong with that, but it was just so foreign to aikido stances and movement it screwed me up. At the same time I was dabbling one of my Aikido beginners was as well, and he had real trouble with Judo footwork coming across into Aikido.

aPlus you get the MOST effective ground fighting experience (if you have the right teacher) :D LOL at the trollbait ;-)

I'll bite anyway. BJJ is much more sophisticated on the ground. Judo is limited by two aspects of their ground comp rules (which affect training paradigms)

1. The quick standups
2. The hold down ippon.

those two things mean the ground dynamic is quite different in judo. Hence no guard work to speak of, not much in the way of sweeps etc. Now maybe the right teacher deals with all of that but that's a bit like saying the right Aikido teacher will show you how to throw and defend against decent thigh kicks. That may well be true, but those teachers are rarer than the rare spotted snarklefish....

Roman Kremianski
08-29-2007, 01:54 PM
I found wrestling clinches suited me much better than Judo. I don't like relying on the gi or shirt, and some times wrestling just helps me more during the scramble that you often see in fights.

Aristeia
08-29-2007, 02:40 PM
I agree Roman. I've also found that if you get into grappling because you've been unsuccessful with an Aikido tech - that it is generally a clinch type situation you will find yourself in rather than judo grips.

wildaikido
08-29-2007, 11:01 PM
LOL at the trollbait ;-)

I'll bite anyway.

WOOHOO, sucker :D (just to make it clear that is a joke)

BJJ is much more sophisticated on the ground. Judo is limited by two aspects of their ground comp rules (which affect training paradigms)

1. The quick standups
2. The hold down ippon.

those two things mean the ground dynamic is quite different in judo. Hence no guard work to speak of, not much in the way of sweeps etc. Now maybe the right teacher deals with all of that but that's a bit like saying the right Aikido teacher will show you how to throw and defend against decent thigh kicks. That may well be true, but those teachers are rarer than the rare spotted snarklefish....

I don't know how rare those spotted shark fish are, but Helio Gracie found one in Maeda :p

Mochizuki Kancho had Mifune to teach him his Ne Waza! I am sure others did to, but you can see even into the 50's when he released his book that Mifune was still teaching leg locks etc. I also use Kawaishi's, My Method of Judo as a reference book for Ne Waza.

I would agree that some judo throws may seem apposed to the principles of Aikido, but the majority of them aren't. Also, don't forget that when Kano asked Ueshiba to accept Mifune as a student O'Sensei said, Mifune is already doing Aikido!

The sad thing about Judo and it's rules it that Judo, due to Kosen Judo (High School Judo) was turning into what BJJ (minus and strikes) on its own. However, when Kano noticed this, he actually organised a rule change to limit work on the floor. The said three attempts to pull your opponent down, then you lose. 30 seconds on the floor, then its back on your feet. It is quite strange that Kano as a revolutionist with judo actually limited its development. Obviously at some level, Kano was still a traditionalist, since his favourite art was Kito Ryu (the source of most of the throws). Judo would clearly be the BEST art on the ground today if this hadn't happened, and basically Judo in the Olympics would be like modern grappling tournaments.

Regards,

philippe willaume
08-30-2007, 08:48 AM
Sorry Phil, but you are just wrong.
Multiple attackers make it *more* likely you will need a ground game. If it's a struggle to hold your feet against one person, what makes you think you can do it against three? Because the reality is in a mulitple situation they do not wait their turn like they do in jiyu waza - they bumrush you all at once, and brother you are going down. If you don't know what to do when you're down there you have an even more serious problem than before.

With some training however you have some choices. Many sweeps and reversals can be performed *very* quickly on untrained opponents. Sweeping and getting to knee ride while putting up a verbal fence can be a very effective way of keeping the other potential attackers at bay. In some situations you may choose to go underneath and use one attacker as a shield -I know several people that have done this effectively.

To think that just because you've done some three person jiyu waza in aikido means that is a winning strategy against multiples is naive.

Also the best way to avoid being taken down is to learn takedowns and wrestling.

Finally having a ground game you are confident in will help your standup. when there is less fear of the clinch and the ground you can perform your standup techniques with less hesitation and total commitment which makes for a fearsome irimi!
Hello micheal
I think you miss some of the point I made earlier. You view share some common point wit mine but I think it is too broad of a statement.

Did I not mention myself and before you than yes you can put up a verbal/psychological fence whilst using your ground game?
But did I not say that if you already practice BJJ (or any ground art for that matter) it can be put to good use for self defence?
Did I not state the in some cases, like bouncer or rape defense, ground skill are needed?
Yes I know few people from whom it worked, but I know far more people from whom it did not.
Did I no use exactly the same example that you used to explain where and why I believe it works?
That being said: People who use their opponent as a shield were successful because help arrived at one point. You are surely aware that, if we believe info available, injuries occurred by a large majority when grappling on the ground either via weapon conceded on the person being grappled, a weapons/strike used by a standing opponent or a weapon or strike by a an opponent no being part of the initial attack..

Could you try that circle drill. (with and without physical fence)
Get 2-3 guys at one meters from you and, they go at you, both trying to take you down/restrain you and pond you whilst you are on the ground or as you go down.
Or one bringing you down whilst the other(s) tries to kick
And increase the starting distance, by one meter

You will find that striking and moving out of the way will become effective far sooner (at a closer distance) than ground fighting. (As well it preserves you ability to flee to a greater extends.) but using ground fighting will produce positive results.

If you stager the opponents i.e. one starts further back than the other, and increase that distance between them, ground fighting becomes even more viable. And for it to be viable, you need a strategy to get create the staggering (i.e. give you time to deal with one opponent).
This is what graham will achieve with his randori or what you will make happen in my example above.

In a stable controlled environment, ie you know the number of attacker and that they do not have weapons. Ground fighting is a viable option.

Now add a concealed weapon on one of the baddy and or have two attacking and have a third in side coming when he sees fit (with or without weapon). Ground fighting becomes much much less viable.

Self defence wise, it is not likely that you will know how many attackers there is, if they all are going to come at once and if the will have weapons, (though improvised weapon are usually readily available).
I share a lot of your argument but in “self defense” they will use their number to swamp you (rape like scnearion) or some will impair you, for the other to strike, All that being you a minimum time to react. Ie no square of no advance warning.

May be it is being naïve, or amazingly impress by my randory and kokuy nague vs plenty of people that do not really have it in for me. (and thrust me I am found of myself)
But I would say it is about pressure testing you strategy and tactics as much as you pressure test your techniques.

phil

philippe willaume
08-30-2007, 11:58 AM
This then suggest that we should train with two man randori, have one pull you down, then try to get him of you before the other can do anything to damaging. If you get the guy on the bottom into a arm bar (juji gatame ude hishige or any other ude hishige [rokkyo]) or an ude garami, you can assume you have popped his shoulder or elbow hence he is gone. Then deal with the second guy. Ideally we would just want to escape the first one, deal with the second guy while the first is standing up. That would be ideal. The whole point of insurance (as you mentioned) is that it is for those none ideal situations.

I must point out that my point is we shouldn't need to cross train in BJJ as the thread suggests, as some of these "tricks" are important enough to include in our training.

The best example is with Tohei Sensei. He has these wonderful demos with him flinging his ukes about, but when the American Judoka challenged him (in Rendezvous with Adventure) he had a resisting opponent. Hence no nice pretty techniques.

Regards,
Hello graham,
Thanks I see what you mean
Hopefully with my reply to Michael, you will see where I am coming from.

It is not an antinomy as such. I mean what you say makes sense and works and to certain extend is applicable in self defence.
Granted that is not going to be applicable in a mugging scenario, but that is fine for a drunken guy and his mate (s), (Provided that it is used with a verbal/psychological fence).

We can ague till we are blue in the face if it is the optimum approach to self-defence or not. My point is that it is good enough if drunken brawl is the more likely self defence situation you will see, and that is really what matters. Self-defense in itself does not mean a lot.

I think that is where RBSD and combat sport go a bit over the top sometimes,.
One is assuming that there is people out there whose sole purpose is to get you, if possible in post apocalyptic world and the other does not really want to admit that its operating environment represent only a fraction of what happens in the “real world”.

Phil

wildaikido
08-30-2007, 12:44 PM
Hello graham,
Thanks I see what you mean
Hopefully with my reply to Michael, you will see where I am coming from.

It is not an antinomy as such. I mean what you say makes sense and works and to certain extend is applicable in self defence.
Granted that is not going to be applicable in a mugging scenario, but that is fine for a drunken guy and his mate (s), (Provided that it is used with a verbal/psychological fence).

We can ague till we are blue in the face if it is the optimum approach to self-defence or not. My point is that it is good enough if drunken brawl is the more likely self defence situation you will see, and that is really what matters. Self-defense in itself does not mean a lot.

I think that is where RBSD and combat sport go a bit over the top sometimes,.
One is assuming that there is people out there whose sole purpose is to get you, if possible in post apocalyptic world and the other does not really want to admit that its operating environment represent only a fraction of what happens in the "real world".

Phil

Hi Phil,

Enjoying the exchange (not really arguing, I hope).

Don’t get me wrong, I would hope to one day be like O’Sensei, and never need to use ground techniques because I can deal with my opponents at the moment of contact, or before (through peaceful negotiations :D).

I am currently trying to get some statistics together, since you are pushing the “likely” scenario thing. I do agree with this, as I am sure Michael does, but we just have different ideas as to what we think is more likely. I have seen people clinch in one on one street fights, but stay standing. I have only experienced haymakers in my two encounters. Hence I am trying to get some stats on assaults and robberies, specifically about the number of attackers.

I can tell you for sure that as a female in Australia you are more likely to be assaulted between the age of 15 to 24 (~42%), buy a family member (~42%) (or someone she knows in general ~81%), in a home (~58%). I can only assume that this would be a one on one situation. For a male in Australia you are more likely to be assaulted between the age of 15 to 24 (~40%), buy a stranger (~51%), not in a home (~70%). I can make no assumption based on the information. Hence I have asked the Australian Institute of Criminology for more information.

As a researcher I have a natural tendency to research :D

Regards,

wildaikido
08-30-2007, 12:51 PM
The result of those numbers suggests that an art like Aikido, rather than something like Karate, would be much better for a woman to learn, since in an overwhelming majority of cases (>80%) she will be assaulted by someone she knows. I would say however, the fact that she is trained means that the person who knows her may be less likely to assault her. Just a thought.

Regards,

Aristeia
08-30-2007, 02:13 PM
Phil here's where we differ. You think in a multiple scenario engagement you'll have a choice whether you go to ground. I'm not saying BJJ is all you need - not by a long stretch. But it is a part of it. Ground fighting is *necessary* but not *sufficient* for self defence in all scenarios.

Try this. Grab two untrained men in reasonable physical condition. Show them a 2 $100 notes in your wallet and put the wallet in a button down pocket. Tell them the money is theirs if they can take it. See how long you stay on your feet.

I agree that grappling will sometimes be your last option. But sometimes you don't have an option....

wildaikido
08-30-2007, 09:38 PM
Try this. Grab two untrained men in reasonable physical condition. Show them a 2 $100 notes in your wallet and put the wallet in a button down pocket. Tell them the money is theirs if they can take it. See how long you stay on your feet.

That's not fair, why can't I have a chance at winning the $200. I'm going to be in NZ in November for a conference :(

Aristeia
08-30-2007, 09:44 PM
cause I already know :-)

Graham if you feel like a bit of rolling while you're hear feel free to stop by -www.groundcontrol.net.nz

Roman Kremianski
08-30-2007, 10:43 PM
Try this. Grab two untrained men in reasonable physical condition. Show them a 2 $100 notes in your wallet and put the wallet in a button down pocket. Tell them the money is theirs if they can take it. See how long you stay on your feet.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NGJCl6IS_xQ

I reckon a wrestler/grappler and Aikidoka would last roughly about the same amount of time.

Aristeia
08-31-2007, 12:26 AM
until they hit the ground? You may be right. My point was that it's going to go to the ground so saying "you don't want to learn groundfighting if you're dealing with multiples" is misguided. That's when you're most likely to hit the mat so if you've never been down there....

philippe willaume
08-31-2007, 05:43 AM
Phil here's where we differ. You think in a multiple scenario engagement you'll have a choice whether you go to ground. I'm not saying BJJ is all you need - not by a long stretch. But it is a part of it. Ground fighting is *necessary* but not *sufficient* for self defence in all scenarios.

Try this. Grab two untrained men in reasonable physical condition. Show them a 2 $100 notes in your wallet and put the wallet in a button down pocket. Tell them the money is theirs if they can take it. See how long you stay on your feet.

I agree that grappling will sometimes be your last option. But sometimes you don't have an option....

No Michael, I do not think you will have a choice to go to the ground or not.
You keep talking in absolute terms. I am talking in relatives terms.
IE there are some cases when if you hit the deck you are buggered regardless your ground skill. For those case it is better to train against being taken down than what to do after.

That is the point of the two guys at 1 meters distance drill/exercise. Just try it, you will see that your will be getting swarmed/overwhelm as soon as you hit the deck.
And they will bring you down if you do not have a fence. (I would even say that they will bring you down even if you have a fence and you marginally cock up).From what we have tried the fence do not help as much for ground work. It is a tad too close. It helps creating distance but not enough to make ground work reliable.
Again we are talking likely scenario here, this is not true for all cases. The case that graham put forward is a good example of my statement being wrong and yours being right.
Modifying the distance at which they start or the distance between then will tell you when one is "correct" approach.
It shows as well that creating the condition to fight on the ground safely and staying up are variation of the same function. You need to create distance in order to get time to apply and recover from the application of a given technique.
Now not training on the ground do not equate not training against being taken down. I am totally with you on the point that one needs to train against take down.
The first time you shoot someone that never dealt with it before. He will end up on his arse.(of course there is always exceptions but I was not one of them…).

phil

philippe willaume
08-31-2007, 07:48 AM
Hi Phil,

Enjoying the exchange (not really arguing, I hope).

Don’t get me wrong, I would hope to one day be like O’Sensei, and never need to use ground techniques because I can deal with my opponents at the moment of contact, or before (through peaceful negotiations :D).

I am currently trying to get some statistics together, since you are pushing the “likely” scenario thing. I do agree with this, as I am sure Michael does, but we just have different ideas as to what we think is more likely. I have seen people clinch in one on one street fights, but stay standing. I have only experienced haymakers in my two encounters. Hence I am trying to get some stats on assaults and robberies, specifically about the number of attackers.

I can tell you for sure that as a female in Australia you are more likely to be assaulted between the age of 15 to 24 (~42%), buy a family member (~42%) (or someone she knows in general ~81%), in a home (~58%). I can only assume that this would be a one on one situation. For a male in Australia you are more likely to be assaulted between the age of 15 to 24 (~40%), buy a stranger (~51%), not in a home (~70%). I can make no assumption based on the information. Hence I have asked the Australian Institute of Criminology for more information.

As a researcher I have a natural tendency to research :D

Regards,
Hello Graham, no it do not think it is arguing. I think that what exchanging point of view is all about.
I know it is very difficult to have proper data (I had data on knife crime in the UK and Scotland during the sword ban/putting “samaurai sword” to the dangerous weapons act proposal) and that what is true in Perth is not necessarily true in Windsor (Uk), non the less I think it is interesting to have those data.

That being said I think, one can make an educated guess as too how wise it is to go to the ground (or in how much trouble you are if you happened to be taken there)
For example Gun is something to take in consideration in some part of London, but has no real relevance in Windsor (where Bess and Phil the Greek have an adobe and where there more troops/police than there are inhabitants).

Those are the question I would ask
Is there is a lot a gun or weapons involved in crime
Is there a fair amount of occurrence when improvised weapon have been used
Is there any strongly bonded group of people band (i.e. hard core “foot supporters”, gangs etc) that you are likely to meet outside of your choosing? Member of the armed forces could be taken in account in that category, not really for the act of gratuitous violence which are not very likely (under our climate at least) but for the strong bound of a squad.

If the answer is resounding yes to one of those, It is very possible/not unlikely that a weapon will be present and /or that and other attackers will intervene after the fight has started and where a verbal/psychological fence is not likely to work.

Basically they take away all the safety we can have when fighting on the ground hence priority is to not get there and when there to get up as quick as possible, knowing that it may already be too late.

That being said, as Michael pointed out, it is a trade off. If someone put you to the ground; you are likely to get it, even if that particular situation ground fighting would have been safe. So our do not take me down at all cost game need to be strong (hence the importance of striking, movements and training against take down).

Like all trade of, it may or may not be beneficial to everyone every where. Personally I think it is harder to make the “not going to the ground at all cost” strategy work. So doing it because it takes care of the worst case scenario is counter productive in cases where that worse case scenario is not very likely to happen.

phil
Ps sorry for armed forces personnel to be associated with hooligans and gangs but it is quite clear that touching one member of the squad , even if he behaved like a twat and deserved a slap (which is not a public matter but an internal squad affair), will bring retribution and immediate help from the remainder of the squad.

Roman Kremianski
08-31-2007, 08:06 AM
until they hit the ground? You may be right. My point was that it's going to go to the ground so saying "you don't want to learn groundfighting if you're dealing with multiples" is misguided. That's when you're most likely to hit the mat so if you've never been down there...

No, I posted that video as a response to people who keep saying "Well, BJJ is good for one guy, but Aikido is good for 2" If Aikidoka have never trained in that matter, they'll be just as effective against 2 opponents as a BJJer.

darin
09-30-2007, 09:28 AM
Look at modern Yoseikan Budo, they have gone even further in this direction. But I am sure that Mochizuki Kancho would have easily overcome his son or any of his students with their new methods of fighting. Hence, Mochizuki Kancho's techniques were better than Hiroo Mochizuki's techniques,

Regards,

As great as Mochizuki Minoru was I don't think he would have been able to compete against Hiro Mochizuki and the top YWF instructors. Yoshi used to tell me how Minoru tried to test his skills against Hiroo only to have Hiroo playfully tap his head (jabbing etc) with ease. And, about 10 years ago one of my students when visiting the Seifukai hombu witnessed Hiroo Sensei wipe the floor with the Seifukai instructors, again with ease.

If Mochizuki Minoru's techniques were superior to his son's then the YWF would be still doing them the same way.

darin
09-30-2007, 10:33 AM
This is my definition of self defence. The person must be untrained or you are not defending yourself. If you "defend yourself" against a trained attacker, he will win, as he is attacking, and you are defending! If he is trained you must fight him (If you have not choice, my example would be defending my wife and kids). Therefore this comes under the branch of combat.

I recommend judo. If you can find a good judo instructor, who will teach you techniques and is not focused on competition, this will compliment anyone's Aikido very well. I can only imaging there are a few people like this in England. A lot of the old old great went through England (Tani), and some old great (Abe).

Regards,

Depends on the situation but I think you need both defense and attack. If your up against a trained attacker who is more skilled than you or someone who is armed then sometimes defense is all you have at least until you hopefully find an opening to attack or escape.
I'd say its easier to fight someone who doesn't know how to fight than it is to fight someone who does but in the end of the day it comes back to the situation and you have to do what ever you can to survive.

Judo is good. Also learn how to box and take some lessons in Kali and Escrima.

gdandscompserv
09-30-2007, 12:21 PM
Try this. Grab two untrained men in reasonable physical condition. Show them a 2 $100 notes in your wallet and put the wallet in a button down pocket. Tell them the money is theirs if they can take it. See how long you stay on your feet.
How fast can they run and for how long?
:D

Aristeia
09-30-2007, 01:09 PM
You achieve "sanctuary" when you hit the nearest pub.

jennifer paige smith
10-02-2007, 09:28 AM
You achieve "sanctuary" when you hit the nearest pub.

In which case the bartender is the lucky stealer of your precious $'s.:D
win-win

Aikibu
10-02-2007, 07:39 PM
In which case the bartender is the lucky stealer of your precious $'s.:D
win-win

Unless I was one of the Uke's in that Scenario.

I just offer to buy a round for everyone. :)

William Hazen

Aikibu
10-02-2007, 08:03 PM
You achieve "sanctuary" when you hit the nearest pub.

If I was one of the Uke's in that Scenario.... I would just buy everyone a round or two with the money. :)

William Hazen