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TriangleChoke
11-28-2001, 07:50 PM
I read a book about the founder of aikido and I remember seeing a picture of him walking on the edge or tip of the cups and the cups were aligned in a circle. I know he showed some amazing strength but can someone explain how he did the walking and is it possible for someone to acheive it.

Kami
11-29-2001, 04:45 AM
Originally posted by TriangleChoke
I read a book about the founder of aikido and I remember seeing a picture of him walking on the edge or tip of the cups and the cups were aligned in a circle. I know he showed some amazing strength but can someone explain how he did the walking and is it possible for someone to acheive it.

KAMI : He was also able to leap over tall buildings; catch bullets with his dentures; throw people just with his eye stare; and teleport himself from the earth to the moon and back...:rolleyes:
Seriously, TC (BJJ ?), take everything about ancient masters (Ueshiba included) with a very big grain of salt...Ueshiba Morihei O Kina was a man, a remarkable man, with charisma and incredible abilities, but only that A MAN. All else is myth.
Best;)

Arianah
11-29-2001, 07:18 AM
Kami, I agree that one should be skeptical about all the amazing stories about masters, but one should not simply dismiss them either. I think that if someone (like O'Sensei) has perfect control over his/her mind that things that would be considered impossible can be accomplished. I'm not saying that if one has control of the mind that s/he can suddenly fly and lift houses out of their foundations. I just think it's possible to do more, perhaps things deemed impossible by others.

With regard to walking on the rims of cups, I've seen something similar on Ripley's Believe It or Not . . . (hey, stop laughing--don't make fun! :) ) There was a man who through concentration was able to walk on sheets of paper stretched over wooden frames three feet above the ground. (one of them had been chosen at random to be tested by one of the guys watching and he punched right through it) Does that mean that the man who could walk on these things could fly? No, it just means he has trained himself to distribute his weight in a way that made it possible (which is most likely what Ueshiba Sensei did).

Arianah

Thalib
11-29-2001, 08:05 AM
Hey, I watched that episode.

It's about a chinese Qi Gong healer that uses heat generated by his "Ki" to heal his patients. The heat generated was caught by infra-red cameras... I think.

Walkin on paper was his demonstration on controlling his mind and body.

It is true, the possibilities are quite limitless if you have control over your mind and body. But... nonetheless... I always be sceptic at first.

ranZ
11-29-2001, 08:39 AM
interesting.

I had some discussion with a friend who does XingYi, also an inner martial art / neijia almost like Aikido and i found this website on BaGuaZhang / PaKuaChang or Hakkyokuken in Japanese http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/SpiritSt/xinyi/baguazhangMCX_new1.htm

it's an interview with the current Head of Beijing Bagua association who is also able to "walk in the air".

Chinese neijia has deeper understanding/theory in Ki/Chi/Qi than the Japanese counterpart i believe. And they actually learn things like walking on the wall (yes like in CTHD). Yes by training and using the "one point"/ hara / dantian. NOT mumbo jumbo.

Come on, if everybody in the world believes that 90% of the human brain is unused, howcome they can't believe a person can walk in the air or on the wall. We might as well not believe in aikido :D

PeterR
11-29-2001, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by ranZ
Come on, if everybody in the world believes that 90% of the human brain is unused, howcome they can't believe a person can walk in the air or on the wall. We might as well not believe in aikido :D
Arrrrgggghh! I sure don't believe it. Check out http://www.theness.com/articles/brain-nejs0201.html for a nicely written debunk.

I believe in Aikido - attack hard go down. What's not to believe.

Steve
11-29-2001, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by ranZ
interesting.

I had some discussion with a friend who does XingYi, also an inner martial art / neijia almost like Aikido and i found this website on BaGuaZhang / PaKuaChang or Hakkyokuken in Japanese http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/SpiritSt/xinyi/baguazhangMCX_new1.htm

it's an interview with the current Head of Beijing Bagua association who is also able to "walk in the air".

Chinese neijia has deeper understanding/theory in Ki/Chi/Qi than the Japanese counterpart i believe. And they actually learn things like walking on the wall (yes like in CTHD). Yes by training and using the "one point"/ hara / dantian. NOT mumbo jumbo.

SNIP
:D

How many of you would believe crap like this if aikido had been developed by a guy in a small rural town somewhere in the middle of the United States? Just because something has its roots in Asia doesn't mean it is mystical in any way.

Walking atop a circle of glasses? Sure. Glass has a lot of compressive strength. The tough part would be keeping your balance. Walking on the edges of papers? Well, if you stood six reams of paper on edge and held them together in a rigid unit then it would be easy to do. Seperate the individual sheets and it becomes more difficult because there are fewer sheets to take a person's weight. Still, I could buy it. Wall walking the way it is done in a monumentally beautiful movie about mythical figures? Horse shit.

Don't leave your brain on the edge of the mat with your shoes.

TriangleChoke
11-29-2001, 11:08 AM
I had a chinese friend and many of them and I ask him if he knows kungfu(it was a joke and im asian)and he said no,its dangerous because of the flying or somthing like that or he said that back in the time kung fu practitioners could fly. I am also a wrestler, if i know how they do it i can cheat trough a different weight class.

Erik
11-29-2001, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by Arianah
There was a man who through concentration was able to walk on sheets of paper stretched over wooden frames three feet above the ground. (one of them had been chosen at random to be tested by one of the guys watching and he punched right through it) Does that mean that the man who could walk on these things could fly? No, it just means he has trained himself to distribute his weight in a way that made it possible (which is most likely what Ueshiba Sensei did).


Anthony Robbins made his career on firewalking over hot coals. Just believe in your personal power... Well, with hot coals, unless the people fell face-first into them they wouldn't be burned. Any stage magician knows this. The same thing almost certainly applies with the paper trick. Once you know the trick, the magic goes away.

tedehara
11-29-2001, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by TriangleChoke
I read a book about the founder of aikido and I remember seeing a picture of him walking on the edge or tip of the cups and the cups were aligned in a circle. I know he showed some amazing strength but can someone explain how he did the walking and is it possible for someone to acheive it.

The way this is done is by placing your foot flat on the surface of what you're walking on, and not moving it. This takes an extraordinary amount of relaxation and self control to accomplish if you're doing it on a potentially unstable surface. By keeping your foot flat, you distribute your body weight throughout the surface.

Do not try this at home - Boys and Girls!!
I once saw a Shaolin monk walk the mountain of knives live. The mountain was really a series of steps leading up and down. Each step was an upturned knife and the monk was stepping up on the knife's sharp edge!

When people do stunts like this, they are not really tricks, in the sense of stage magic. They are actual applications of physical laws and in most cases are dangerous to the untrained.

Thalib
11-29-2001, 01:47 PM
Thank you Ehara-san, that is very perceptive of you.

I don't know why is it when there's something unexplainable, people mark it as mystical. There actually is nothing mystical about what we've discussed in this previous posts.

Just because somebody could walk on water or knives or paper or glasses or whatever, sleep on bed of nails, or leap to tall trees, doesn't mean it has to be mystical. It's just that those people have better understanding of nature and of his/her own mind and body.

Things that are done in Aikido are far more than mystical, it is more logical than anything. I'm sceptic in nature and I don't easily believe that type of stuff. But, after taking Aikido, I have a better understanding of how nature works.

I used to think those shaolin monks are doing some mystical stuff. Because I see it with my own eyes, and I still can't explain it. Of course, this is until I take Aikido, then everything started to make sense. There was nothing mystical about those unexplained feats, it's more logical to me than knowing how a computer software works.

We have to understand first, and not mark anything to the supernatural, because it is actually very natural in nature.

[Censored]
11-29-2001, 02:50 PM
I read a book about the founder of aikido and I remember seeing a picture of him walking on the edge or tip of the cups and the cups were aligned in a circle. I know he showed some amazing strength but can someone explain how he did the walking and is it possible for someone to acheive it.

There are a few lines of Chinese martial arts that train this skill. To put it simply, you start walking around the edge of a heavy object, and you gradually (i.e. over months and years) decrease the object's mass and/or strength.

Ignore the people who say it is impossible. Conduct your own investigation if you want to find the truth.

Kami
11-29-2001, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by Arianah
Kami, I agree that one should be skeptical about all the amazing stories about masters, but one should not simply dismiss them either.
Arianah

KAMI : Dear Arianah,

Search for a book called "SKILLS OF THE VAGABONDS", by Leung Ting, himself a grand master of Kung Fu (VING TSUN). There are two volumes and they both expand on the "tricks of the trade", that is, the many ways illusions are created and the many remarkable feats of the martial arts are done.
Of course, we're talking about facts. There are many things unexplained but that's not a proof. They may be explained some day. Many of the tricks in Aikido have already been explained by physics and skill. That's all.
To believe or not, is another thing. Everybody has the right to believe in what he/she wishes. Even if each believes the other is wrong...:D
Thank you very much for your letter
Best regards and a good keiko :ai:

Jim23
11-29-2001, 04:15 PM
Steven Seagal can do some of those things and Ueshiba outranked him. ;)

Hand out the right mind-altering party favours and the audience will believe anything.

Jim23

Mike Collins
11-29-2001, 04:45 PM
I saw with my own two eyes. That's right I SAW WITH MY OWN TWO EYES, a man walk on water, in which another man simply sunk.

Of course Chiun IS a master of Sinanju.

nikonl
11-29-2001, 11:05 PM
Mikey: Wow,where did u see it?

Mike Collins
11-29-2001, 11:13 PM
In a great American drama:

Remo Williams.

I'm sorry, I need to apologize to anyone who, not being from the United States, has no idea what I'm referring to. This post was intended tongue-in-cheek, as Chiun is a fictitional character, Master of a mythical martial art, Sinanju.

It's unlikely that anyone can actually walk on water. (Though you'd think many could, by their attitude)

ranZ
11-30-2001, 02:47 AM
for Steve the guy who sez it's "horse shit".
uhm... next time u have some money, pack your bags and go to China, travel around, open your mind to impossible things.

If u wanna see ppl eating glass or stabbing themselves but not get hurt, or flying daggers you can come here to Indonesia.


Don't leave your brain on the edge of the mat with your shoes.

That goes for you too Steve :)

ah.. can't blame u westerns... always so.. physical. :D j/k j/k
not all Asians believe in this stuff either.

To Peter who believes in striking hard n go down, u should come to a Ki Aikido dojo sometimes. Strike soft with love.

------
and Peter saw with his own eyes that Jesus walked on water and calmed the storm.
gee, i guess y'all think this is fictional too.

PeterR
11-30-2001, 07:42 AM
Originally posted by ranZ
To Peter who believes in striking hard n go down, u should come to a Ki Aikido dojo sometimes. Strike soft with love.

Well what I meant is that the person attacking strikes hard but is still defeated. If you meant the same thing then how do you know your Aikido works - has to be taken on faith.

------
and Peter saw with his own eyes that Jesus walked on water and calmed the storm.
gee, i guess y'all think this is fictional too.
Well yes - yes I do.

jk
11-30-2001, 08:36 AM
...it's still baloney. Or is it?

It's certainly your perogative whether or not to believe stuff about walking up walls, using ki/chi/qi to snuff out candles, and other such feats. What I want to know, however, is what it all means anyway. Why would you go through the trouble of learning this stuff (if you could)? OK, great, so you learn how to walk on the rims of cups. Fine, you one-up Spiderman and learn how to walk up walls (look Ma, no hands!). Are you a better person for it, or what? I mean, other than the obvious entertainment value, why would you learn/do that stuff? Enlighten me, please...

Hey ranZ...I really dig the people who stab themselves and not get hurt. I wonder if they'll let me stab them... :)

Regards,

Thalib
11-30-2001, 08:45 AM
Air is there, you breath it but you don't see it.

It's all right if one does not believe, but one cannot deny the truth. The fortunate ones have travelled around and received knowledge from their travels. The less fortunate ones have to go by listening from others or from reading. The unfortunate ones don't get anything.

Open your mind to the infinite possibilities of nature itself.

Some will try to explain it scientifically, some will try to explain it esoterically, and some will not even care. But the truth is the universe is infinite, nature is infinite, the spirit is infinite.

Black Holes, Dark Matter, The Big Bang, etc. these are mere theories, yet millions and millions of scientists believe that these exist. Yet people can't believe what they see in front of them.

And a note to Ran-chan:
Relax, Ki-breathing... remember, Ki-breathing exercise... think one-point, one mind, one body...

Thalib
11-30-2001, 09:17 AM
Kuo-san, don't mistake these for mere parlor tricks. Those feats are mere side-effects. It's only the practical/visible side of what they are really learning. What they are learning is much deeper.

Some do use it for entertainment as you probably saw in Kecak dance or Debus. Yes, some people do use it for earning money. And yes, Kuo-san, they will let you stab them, they will let you burn them. I can't explain Debus and Kecak, because it edges on the metaphysical. And I rather not go into those type of arts, because the truth about those arts actually scare me. For me, these arts are the exceptions to my views.

Like a snake charmer, what one learn is not how to make the snake dance, but to understand the snake, respect it in every way, study the snake. Making the snake dance is just what they can show visually to other of what they have learned.

The same is true with these concepts: You don't learn to walk up walls, you don't learn to walk on cups, these are merely what could be practiced after your studies, after what you have learned. And what is that you might ask. It is understanding one's mind, one's body, nature, and the universe. And yes, if one study it correctly, it does make you a better person, as I have learned.

It makes one less and less arrogant, and more open minded to the possibilities. One will become more humble because realizing how small he/she is compared to the universe. One will be more tolerant to each other, realizing that we are all essentially of the same essence. Basically, a whole well being.

Do not be mesmerized by amazing techniques, they are mere movements. But study the principle of that technique, the core, the essence, and one will realize its meaning, and the technique will be a movement with meaning and purpose - it will be solid and whole. Ignore it, and it's only an empty shell, easily cracked.

If one only see or learn these feats and do not study the principle, the purpose, nor the meaning behind it, it too will be an empty shell.

Aikido is a study of principle, not techniques. The techniques we study are mere media or mere devices for us to learn the principles. Learn the principles, understand it, and one will have infinite techniques.

Erik
11-30-2001, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by Mikey
Remo Williams.

Perhaps the finest MA movie ever. Simply extraordinary. Right up there with "A Fistful of Yen".

Abasan
11-30-2001, 03:13 PM
Wow.. interesting stuff. Ranz, outside my dojo a guy teaches niajia although he pronounced it more like nojo. He said he used to practice aikido until he found this art which he says is much better and more practical. They do a lot of breathing and forceful exhalation as well as movements similar to qi gong. Otherwise I don't see much of anything spectacular going about. Still, ppl I know who practice qi gong can bend spoons as easily as uri gellar can. I guess its a great party trick.

As for Thalib, yeah. You indonesians are famous for the mystical silat and its variations. Here in Malaysia we have those as well like flying daggers and all, but they are rare. The invicibility of some has been seen but only against edged weapons. Never against bullets (some of them found to their dismay and demise :D ) btw, i wrote sensei hakim an email, thanks for giving it to me.

As for the mind, it is said that if you can command the mind, you can command the mountain. Interprete as you will. As long as the sceptics are happy thats fine. But I believe, and if i have a chance to learn these stuff I would. Cause I can't afford smart homes, and telepathy/telekinesis would be great. And if i could teleport/fly then i won't have to buy a car/get stuck in jams or buy a flight ticket ever again! :p

Till then, Peter as usual is right. We have yet to fully command our bodies, much more our minds. Lets all enjoy aikido and do proper techniques and leave the feats to the pros, ripleys and the movies. Btw, as a result of watching remo, I used to stab my fingers at walls as a child. Now I have fingers as hard as adamatium which can go through a single sheet of paper like hot knife through butter!;)

Andy
11-30-2001, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by Abasan
Still, ppl I know who practice qi gong can bend spoons as easily as uri gellar can. I guess its a great party trick.
You mean they bend the spoon with their hands, just like Uri Gellar (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0879751991)? You're right -- it's a neat slight of hand trick that illustrates absolutely nothing out of the ordinary that anyone who's good at legerdemain can do.

Of course, if your friends actually do have real "superpowers," have them contact James Randi. Your friends just may become a million dollars richer.

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

deepsoup
11-30-2001, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by Andy
Of course, if your friends actually do have real "superpowers," have them contact James Randi. Your friends just may become a million dollars richer.
http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

Thanks for posting that link, I'll spend a while exploring the site later, that looks really interesting.

A short silly story:

When I'm working, I spend a fair bit of my time up on the structural steelwork in the roof of some pretty big arenas. (I hang up lighting rigs for concerts and stuff.)

The beams I walk along are strictly horizontal, but there is a vertical beam in the roof of the Manchester Evening News Arena (about 90 feet above a concrete floor) with muddy footprints running right up the side.

I've heard a theory about a construction worker walking along it while attaching it to the crane to haul it up there, but I know the 'theory' guys are just jealous. I know the truth is that there's a muddy-booted budo guy in Manchester somewhere with some serious ki-extension. :D

Sean
x

ranZ
11-30-2001, 10:02 PM
John:
Fine, you one-up Spiderman and learn how to walk up walls (look Ma, no hands!). Are you a better person for it, or what? I mean, other than the obvious entertainment value, why would you learn/do that stuff? Enlighten me, please...

Well in a way, you are a better person with better skills :)
In the old old days i suppose, hey if your enemies can do those things and settlement are done with combats instead of court, why won't you want to be able to do those things. Now i suppose ppl just do it to perserve the art.

Thalib:
You don't learn to walk up walls


Actually Mal, they do. First they learn with a board, leaned on the wall with small degree. Run up the board to the wall. Increase the degree gradually untill u can do it with out the board. (well that's what i read)

Abasan:[i]
You indonesians are famous for the mystical silat and its variations. Here in Malaysia we have those as well like flying daggers and all, but they are rare. [i]

Yeah, but like Thalib, i'd rather not go in to those stuff. About the flying daggers, heres a story. We had an audio visual assignment, my friends went to Jogja (a very cultural city) to film this pamong.. mm what do you call it, the guy who guards the sacred kingdom weapons. So he explains about the sorts of daggers / keris, spears, etc. And then he actually demonstrate the flying keris in front of the camera (i mean my friends didn't ask for it). So can we send this tape to Randi, or do ppl have to go all the way to florida?
:D

lt-rentaroo
11-30-2001, 11:57 PM
Hello,

- Walking up walls. I've seen Jackie Chan do this in just about every movie he has made in recent years, without using special harnesses or wires. Nothing mystical about it. All it takes is the right angle of approach to the wall, which is what ranZ alluded to in the last post.

I'm sure many will hate to hear this, but if you think "walking up walls" requires some sort of mystical or special skill, then you are fooling yourself. Just like everything else, all it takes is practice. Happy Training!

jk
12-01-2001, 01:35 AM
Hmmm...perhaps I'm a wee bit grumpy about this particular subject, but the point I was trying to make was that this walking up walls/tossing ki balls/self-perforation/eating glass/walking on water/leaping over condos stuff, whether it's grounded in reality or not, is a bit of a distraction. People have come into our dojo asking about supernatural martial arts feats and stuff they've seen in the movies. Then they ask how long it'll take before they can do that (and of course, how long it'll take to get one of them thar black belts). You are polite about it, of course, but it gets tiring...

As Abasan and PeterR have alluded to, our time is better spent in sincere practice, preferably on the basics, without worrying about whether we'll get to the point of being able to toss out ki balls at will or pull tractor-trailers with our naughty bits. At least that's the way I see it...

Regards,

Liz Baron
12-01-2001, 05:07 AM
A few years ago, whilst I was working for a well known British TV organisation, Uri Gellar was a guest on one of the shows I was recording. At the end of the recording he came through into the gallery (control room) to say hello to the production team and the crew.

Two inches from my face, I saw him bend his dressing room key. Just like that.

I care not whether he's a fake, whether telekinesis is real, or whether it was a mass hallucination suffered by the whole room. What I learned from that is that regardless of the explanation, he is a master of his art (whatever it may be), and can perform to the best of his ability close up and live as well as on tape.

If someone has a skill, you can learn from them, whether there is a mystical aspect or not.

Liz

Thalib
12-01-2001, 05:46 AM
Good point Baron-san, as long as there is a lesson to be learned. Thank you.

Kuo-san, I see where your bitterness originates. I too have the same problem. People coming to me asking for a quick martial arts fix. Asking me if it's supernatural. This what is sad about my people, they are not educated enough yet. It does get tiring.

But the point is, we have to educate these people. Let them see the truth. If we turn away, we are not helping anybody.

But, Kuo-san, please keep an open mind to the possibilities.

And, Ran-chan, I still believe walking up walls, like any other techniques, is just a method of teaching principles. If that person did not discover the principle of the matter, I doubt that person will be able to do that type of feats.

Techniques are only a small part of the journey, and it sometimes blind you of the actual purpose of learning it. I believe that's why Ran-chan, during our Ki-no-Kenkyukai classes, techniques are rarely taught.

As I have learned just last night during practice, it is possible to be blinded by techniques, lost the actual principles, and in the end have the technique become ineffective.

ranZ
12-02-2001, 03:07 AM
Originally posted by Thalib
--cut--This what is sad about my people, they are not educated enough yet. It does get tiring.

"my ppl"?? i thought John is from Indonesia too? If i may know, where is your dojo John?
Kamal, the problem isn't that they're not educated enough, they just didn't go to the right person (*they should've went to the psychic :P *) j/k j/k

Techniques are only a small part of the journey, --cut--

i know that, i was just simply stating that it can be learned :)


it is possible to be blinded by techniques

and apparently i'm still blinded by strength. oooohhhh i'll never understand how to properly relax :mad: :eek:

Thalib
12-02-2001, 06:46 AM
Kuo-san is Indonesian? I know Kuo-san resides in Indonesia. Because if Kuo-san is actually Indonesian, he should be more tolerant and be more sensitive about these things.

Yes, Ran-chan, those things can be learned, and that I can't deny.

And Ran-chan, you should be the last person to be blinded by strength. Try to be who you are, but let your Ki grow bigger and stronger infinitely.

HillBilly
12-02-2001, 07:03 AM
righty o,is it not true that even ppl today do stuff that many of us se to be "impossible" for exmple athletes can do amazing stuff with thier sport but if we train enough we could arguably be just as good the same applys here the OSensi, i belive we can do anything we want as long as we are prpared to train for it for anyone doing akiod knows Osensi was a very spiritual man i belive he trained his mind and actually knew his body to be able to acomplish this.yes i agree somtimes things are eggsagerated but still the principle of it.......right i will stop typin now sorry for bad typing skills.:confused: :) :p (bit TOO happy that last one!!!!)

HillBilly

jk
12-02-2001, 09:11 AM
Thalib, I may be taking this the wrong way, but I don't very much appreciate your opinion that I should be more tolerant and sensitive. All I have said is that whatever you believe is your perogative. If you think I have ridiculed people who believe in the seemingly supernatural, then that certainly was not my intent. People can and will believe what they want; I will never begrudge them that, especially if such belief is the product of sound reasoning and discourse. Is this intolerance? I'd think about it again, s'il vous plait.

Thalib, you and any other folks here (hi ranZ) are welcome to our dojo anytime, which is the Institut Aikido Indonesia Jepang, located at 46 Jalan Setiabudi in Bandung. Yep, it's right behind the supermarket there. You can call (22) 203-5000 for information on how to get there, you can get other info through the dojo search function. If you need any more information (or just need to flame me privately ;)), drop me an e-mail.

Love & kisses,

Thalib
12-02-2001, 02:13 PM
I believe it was I that have taken you the wrong way. My apologies Kuo-san.

This misunderstanding would probably not have been met if we were to talk face to face. It is harder to interpret writings. And I guess I have interpret yours in a wrong way. Again, apoogies.

I too, sometimes poke fun at those people that practices supernatural beliefs :D . But, I still can't deny their existence. And sometimes their existence do scare me in some way.

Thank you for your invitation. I will surely drop by your dojo if I was to be in Bandung. And please drop by our dojo whenever you're in Jakarta. But UPH, Karawaci is 20km outside of Jakarta :p . Well, drop by anyway.

DOUZO YOROSHIKU ONEGAISHIMASU.

ranZ
12-02-2001, 11:04 PM
Hi too JK! :)
i like u'r signature Love & kisses, :)

Originally posted by Thalib

It is harder to interpret writings.


agreed. Btw, my apologies for Peter for misinterperting his words.

Originally posted by Thalib

you should be the last person to be blinded by strength.


i know.. my dillema. small person who just wanna kick some a$$ but don't really have the muscles to do it, and now learning not to want to kick a$$ but still tempted to wrestle somebody down. :D

PeterR
12-03-2001, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by ranZ
Btw, my apologies for Peter for misinterperting his words.

Hey its all part of the discussion - no worries.