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Chocolateuke
11-26-2001, 11:17 AM
what do you think of having students teach? I do not mean take over the class for a day.. ( although my sensi does every once in a blue moon have to go to some seminar or another and we have our very senior students teach the basics.) i mean you dallas go teach these new students how to fall backwards and forwards. I have dont this I usually end up teaching the new children how to fall and roll while others teach techneqe while the sensi helps all and corrects the mistakes and confusions. I am just wondering if any other dojos do this or not and what your veiws on this are.

Arianah
11-26-2001, 12:05 PM
I belong to a fairly small dojo, so the only one who really teaches formally (which is what it sounds like you are getting at) is the sensei, while the senior-most student will sometimes give some instruction and correction while performing techniques. I think that it is fine for a sensei to have more advanced students teach the more simple things to beginners, otherwise we would be learning the basics over and over, and though reinforcement of the simple basics is good, it would cheat more advanced students if that was all that they did. As long as the student that Sensei asks to teach beginners is comfortable with it, I don't see a reason not to.

As for other students teaching one another, though I know that one is not supposed to do this, I find it very difficult not to tell the person who is nage, and who continually gets confused about how to step, how to do so. What is the etiquette surrounding this? Anyone know? :confused: I know that in a perfect world, the sensei is supposed to come around and correct everything that is going wrong, but if s/he is busy on the other side of the room, is it all right to correct or should one leave their partner to do the technique incorrectly?

Arianah

shihonage
11-26-2001, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Arianah
... I find it very difficult not to tell the person who is nage, and who continually gets confused about how to step, how to do so. What is the etiquette surrounding this? Anyone know? :confused: I know that in a perfect world, the sensei is supposed to come around and correct everything that is going wrong, but if s/he is busy on the other side of the room, is it all right to correct or should one leave their partner to do the technique incorrectly?


It should be relatively easy for you to kind of, not resist, but stay "solid" when the beginning nage jerks in the wrong direction, and if/when they cant figure it out, you, as a uke, should slowly and methodically go through proper ukemi movement which also familiarizes nage with what they are supposed to do.

This way you don't have to say anything.

Thalib
11-26-2001, 01:47 PM
Teaching is part of the learning experience. Our Sensei encourages teaching. From my experience, when one is teaching, one will discover one's strength and weaknesses.

The senior students actually have the obligation to show the correct way of doing things. Even though this would be considered disrespectful in classic budo, in modern budo this is actually encouraged, just as long as the correct way is shown.

Being able to teach what one knows actually proves that one can accept responsibility for what one has learned. But in teaching one must not have the "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude. This arrogance will teach nothing, and only bring downfall to the one who teaches. The correct attitude in teaching is "This is what I've learned, let's discuss this together, there are probably things that you could teach me". This humbleness will teach you even more about what you're teaching.

From my experience, teaching has shown me how inadequate I am in the knowledge that I am teaching and motivated me to learn even further. With the teaching process, one will discover weaknesses. And with the correct attitude given to the students and given by the students, these weaknesses could be covered.

When one teaches, one does not only teach others, but also teaches oneself. Learning by teaching, teaching by learning.

L. Camejo
11-26-2001, 05:04 PM
Hi all,

In my dojo we have a simple law with this -"Teach what you know, if your'e not sure ask the Instructor". This applies to everything from basics to techniques.

In general, teaching something actually shows the student how much they REALLY understand of what they're doing.

Techniques and principles that one takes for granted tend to take on a whole new appearance when you have to explain it to someone who has no idea what you're talking about. :)

My $0.02
L.C.:ai::ki:

guest1234
11-26-2001, 05:57 PM
As for teaching rolls/falls: every dojo I've been in (and that's quite a few) has a more senior student show a new student how to fall their first class, and I think that is good for both. If, however, that senior student is teaching a different new student each class and never getting a chance to train, that is bad (I haven't seen this, but was told about it happening in a dojo nearby by one of those students who moved over to us). The chance to teach ukemi should be shared among several seniors.

As for 'mat-teaching' i.e., telling your partner what to do: I really dislike this. I think it robs the kohai of the chance to learn on their own. I'm not even a fan of the 'resist to teach them' method as sometimes size makes it hard for someone to resist even bad technique, some beginners just throw in more muscle--which can be dangerous to resist, especially if uke is small, and --gasp--sometimes sempai are actually WRONG in what they are trying to show and force the correct kohai to abandon the correct technique out of fear of hurting the resisting uke. I think is is just best to give a sincere, committed attack appropriate for nage to do the shown technique, at a speed appropriate to nage's level. As they go through the motions they will either get it right, or should see that you and they are not looking like what was just shown. At that point, if they are asking what they did wrong, they can be encouraged to try something different from what they did last. I think the exploring of the technique--including the wrong turns and dead ends, are important to growth. If you want to teach them, then do the technique correctly, clearly, crisply, even very very slowly if you need to---they should learn from what you are doing, not what you are saying. In my opinion.

Lastly, there is the 'after class' teaching: here I think it is fine to do all the discussing and verbalizing you want to, but I'd still encourage exploring rather than just "here is what you do, step here and grab this...". I'd also put in this section helping beginners fall/roll again, shikko, trying that technique you were doing with a kohai who just wasn't getting it in class, etc. This I think everyone should do, out of respect for all those who did it for us when we first started.

OK, I will now hop off the soap box.

Speireag
11-29-2001, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by ca
As for 'mat-teaching' i.e., telling your partner what to do: I really dislike this. I think it robs the kohai of the chance to learn on their own. I'm not even a fan of the 'resist to teach them' method as sometimes size makes it hard for someone to resist even bad technique, some beginners just throw in more muscle--which can be dangerous to resist, especially if uke is small, and --gasp--sometimes sempai are actually WRONG in what they are trying to show and force the correct kohai to abandon the correct technique out of fear of hurting the resisting uke. I think is is just best to give a sincere, committed attack appropriate for nage to do the shown technique, at a speed appropriate to nage's level. As they go through the motions they will either get it right, or should see that you and they are not looking like what was just shown. At that point, if they are asking what they did wrong, they can be encouraged to try something different from what they did last. I think the exploring of the technique--including the wrong turns and dead ends, are important to growth. If you want to teach them, then do the technique correctly, clearly, crisply, even very very slowly if you need to---they should learn from what you are doing, not what you are saying. In my opinion.

I agree completely. Our Sensei occasionally reminds us of two things, which I will try to paraphrase here to the best of my understanding.

There is one sensei on the mat. Students should not teach other students during class. It might be okay for very senior students to offer an occasional correction, but even that should be minimized. The reasoning is simple: most students do not have the necessary skill and perception to be critiquing someone else's technique yet. Sensei keeps a close eye on everyone (our dojo is small) and if he is dissatisfied with your progress in some way, he will address it as he sees fit.

It is uke's job to be sincere and to respond naturally to nage. It is not uke's job to try to figure out what nage is going to do and try to prevent it, or to try to guide uke one way or the other, except by responding naturally and sincerely. If that response means that the technique doesn't turn out as nage expected, that's fine. That's good feedback for nage. To do anything else is to prevent uke's practice of ukemi, which is the door to understanding Aikido.

On this latter point, I have sometimes had a senior student "jam" me, and then offer instruction. Even though I generally did learn something from it, I do see Sensei's point; if possible, the student should always figure it out for him/herself. That way, the student learns it more thoroughly and intimately than if it's simply told and the student gets enough of a superficial understanding to make the movement work in that particular case.

-Speireag.

[Censored]
11-29-2001, 07:10 PM
As for 'mat-teaching' i.e., telling your partner what to do: I really dislike this. I think it robs the kohai of the chance to learn on their own.

If you make a comment on your partner's technique, they have the choice to consider or ignore that comment. If you keep your mouth shut, you've given them no choice.

People who want to learn on their own, generally do not take a class.

guest1234
11-29-2001, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by [Censored]

If you make a comment on your partner's technique, they have the choice to consider or ignore that comment. If you keep your mouth shut, you've given them no choice.

People who want to learn on their own, generally do not take a class. [/B]

It sounds like you think Aikido is learned from being told things. I believe it is learned best through feeling (what is done to you as uke, how it feels when you are nage), next through seeing...I see very little need for words. But everyone has their own way of learning, and their own version of Aikido.;)

Roma
11-30-2001, 12:03 AM
Well I have found everyone's responses very interesting and all bring up valid points. However, I think Thalib summed it up best.

In both dojos I've practiced in, it was common for students to 'teach' other students. Not so much as giving a formal lesson, but assisting those who may require added guidance in how to perform a technique.

Obviously the sensei is not available at every moment to everyone. As a student practicing a technique for the first times, guidance from other students have been welcome and appreciated. Others have helped me by giving me something to visualize (verbally) 'draw a line in the sand', 'carry the tray', 'bring my elbow to my ear'.

I do not agree that students should not teach other students. As a classroom teacher, the students in my classes often teach other students. Obviously they do not give the formal lesson, but during guided practice they assist one another. We learn from our models. On the mat we encounter many models (ukes)and each has something to offer. If you think you are not teaching others by simply doing the technique, you are mistaken.

I have found that I am the best teacher when I am also a student and the best student when I am also a teacher.

If someone wishes to correct another and does so with kindness and intention to help each person benefits.

PeterR
11-30-2001, 07:43 AM
When exactly do we stop being students.

ronin_10562
11-30-2001, 08:05 AM
"When exactly do we stop being students."

That's easy! We stop practicing and stop being students when we stop breathing :)

Walt

Thalib
11-30-2001, 08:15 AM
You could say it like that Kopitov-san. Basically we will never stop being student of the art. Learning is never-ending. When we teach, we teach what we are learning/studying in order for us to understand better what we are learning.

To feel that one understands totally/fully about a subject matter is quite arrogant.

Chocolateuke
11-30-2001, 12:39 PM
maybe I should have put this thread on the training section..
anyhow Sure the sensei is the head at our dojo and we are kinda like prophets who helps senseis teacings to be spread ( in the dojo out side the dojo I never give any form of instruction unless sensei says so which is never :) ) anyhow, Mat teaching and having your sensie tell you show such person basics are very different in my opinion.

mat teaching usually accurrs when you are a partener with someone and your both trying to learn what sensei just showed you, or somthing and one of the partners takes on role of sensie without senseis consent at all. which is usually wrong because they usually dont know the stuff them selfs. at our dojo we have a girl who came in about 1 mounth ago and i already a big mat teacher. she is about 12 years old and she has even tried to teach someone else something which she was didnt have a clue about ( kote-gashi.) luckly sensi came in to the rescue and showed both the right way.. but it is unsettling.

Having your sensei tell you to show basics or something to another student is different because: your sensei told you to "teach" and you already know what the other person is learning. Always my sensei tells us to show something that we have already tested on and have showed sensei that we do in fact know the tecq. it is the senseis call. and sure sensei does come for some polishing on both parties but the person who is learning from scratch has the skeliton of the throw at least.

this is my opinion ca might not like it nor or others but its what ive been learning by! gotta go grade papers ( Teacher aid in drivers ed they have been watching a grueling videio on drunk driving :( with lots of blood :( wich why I am on the comp!.)

[Censored]
11-30-2001, 01:07 PM
It sounds like you think Aikido is learned from being told things.

Ha ha. :rolleyes:

I believe it is learned best through feeling (what is done to you as uke, how it feels when you are nage), next through seeing...I see very little need for words. But everyone has their own way of learning, and their own version of Aikido.;)

IME most people progress very slowly without verbal assistance, it is too easy to miss the point being illustrated. Congrats if you find yourself in the minority.

Speireag
11-30-2001, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by [Censored]
If you make a comment on your partner's technique, they have the choice to consider or ignore that comment. If you keep your mouth shut, you've given them no choice.

Yes and no. If I'm trying to apply myself fully to the training, I don't necessarily want to spend the energy evaluating my partner's comments. My partner is generally welcome to comment afterward, but while we are training, I would rather train, and concentrate on that.

Make no mistake; I sometimes want verbal feedback. I certainly have benefitted from it. And I know how to ask for it when I want it.

Since I can ask for verbal feedback if I want it, by *not* commenting, my partner frees me to work on the non-verbal level. I have found such practice to be much more worthwhile in the long run. Verbal instruction can leave you thinking that you understand something better than you do. You get a better assessment from tactile feedback.

Verbal instruction is certainly very useful but in my experience it has its place: from the sensei, or informally before or after class. I encourage you to explore the option of freeing yourself from verbal commentary, to see what you might discover.

People who want to learn on their own, generally do not take a class.

Just because I'm not talking doesn't mean I'm not learning, and it certainly doesn't mean that I'm learning alone. I'm just able to spend my attention more fully on what we are doing, as opposed to what someone is saying.

-Speireag.

Abasan
11-30-2001, 10:20 PM
The book 'Moving Towards Stillness' has the author describing his experience in learning a particularly difficult kata. This one had him jump and turn in mid air in one sequence. He practiced and practiced it perhaps for a year or so and still he could not do it well, until one fine day, the Sensei told him to shift his weight in a particular manner. Suddenly, he found himself being able to do it with ease and 'mastery'.

He of course went back grumbling that the Sensei could have saved him all that effort if he only he was told that 'trick'. To which his wife responded, yes... but would you have listened to him then? :rolleyes:

The 'listen' here is not just hearing what the Sensei has to say. We all hear things but seldom listen, because we don't understand what is being said or we are not yet in a situation that can bring about that understanding. So although, the rights and wrongs of teaching of fellow students on the mat is as much as a puzzle for me, I believe that teaching through words must come at the proper time, location and source. What would have made an excellant groundbreaking essay 10 years ago might be a complete utter nonsense today.:p

Thalib
12-01-2001, 03:28 AM
Good point Abas-san.

The word "teach" does not mean it has to be in an audio-visual sense. This will start getting to the philosophical sense of teaching.

Just last night, after the technique was succesfully done, my partner asked if he did the technique correctly. So I asked him back if I was faking my attack. He answered that he does not believe so. So I said that he did not need to ask me if it was done correctly or not, he will know it himself.

Most of the aikidoka at the dojo that has been practicing quite a while will know when something is not correct. From partner practice point of view, this can be achieved when there is a truthful uke-nage relationship.

What do I mean by truthful? I don't think I have to explain. I believe you all know what I mean.

[Censored]
12-03-2001, 03:24 PM
Yes and no. If I'm trying to apply myself fully to the training, I don't necessarily want to spend the energy evaluating my partner's comments. My partner is generally welcome to comment afterward, but while we are training, I would rather train, and concentrate on that.

Who allocates your energy? You or someone else?

Make no mistake; I sometimes want verbal feedback. I certainly have benefitted from it. And I know how to ask for it when I want it.

Do you know how to ignore it when you do not want it?

Since I can ask for verbal feedback if I want it, by *not* commenting, my partner frees me to work on the non-verbal level.

You are free regardless. Sorry, but the prison is your mind, pal.

When I practice with others who are in this same trap, I usually keep my mouth shut. Do not mistake this for the proper training method. This is giving a handicap to a beginner.

Mares
12-03-2001, 07:21 PM
I believe verbal communication with lower ranks is important. If you are training with lower grade, in particular newbies, they miss a lot of points. I guess mainly because they almost never do ukemi for sensei so they can't feel it, and secondly they don't know what to look for. So I believe it is important for sempai to help them through. But I must admit I try to keep the talk down to a minimum in order to maximise the reps. Corrections by sempai on the mat is a huge part of our learning. I have found that learning technique from a sempai with a similar body shape to mine is invaluable.

My Sensei said once, I'll give you the gist of it, our aikido is like a diamond. It is originally rough and uncut. Each time Sensei or a sempai teach you something, it's like a diamond receiving a new facet/face. The more facets the diamond gets the more valuable it becomes.

I believe that if you only learn from the one person then your diamond will become like thier diamond, and I believe it is important to create your own.

Edward
12-03-2001, 07:32 PM
Honestly, I hate it when sempais try to teach me while we are practicing. It kills the rythm and spoils my training. I have to admit however that on some occasions, the advice was very helpful to improve my Aikido and I still remember it untill now. Nevertheless, I still don't like it. I believe that each person should be allowed to find one's own way, unless they ask for help. Trial and error is the best teacher.
I admit that I surprise myself giving more advice to lower ranks than before. So I try to control myself, even though it is difficult :-) Well, this is Aikido...

Abasan
12-03-2001, 10:14 PM
Trial and error is the best teacher.

Trial and error in my opinion may not the best teacher. If it is, leave the dojo and invent a martial art by trial and error.

You have a teacher teach you because you might not have the opportunity like OSensei had in creating Aikido. Be it time, money, genius or era.

Similarly, a senior does not teach what he does not know. He only corrects what he knows to be wrong. If we let you practice a technique wrongly all the time, it would not work. If it does not work, the techniques jams, and we'll both be standing there doing nothing. Much better use of time would be for the senior to show the beginner the correct way when he gets stuck. That way senior learns by reemphasising, beginner learns hands on. By way of anology, if a beginner TKD guy spars against a senior. The senior must give chances to the beginner for him to learn something. Otherwise, the senior might not leave any openings and instead repeatedly kick the beginner to a pulp. No one learns anything there. If you still don't understand this, ask a strong senior to hold fast (no chance given) on you and see if you can perform a technique properly.

As Thalib says, be honest as uke or nage.

Edward
12-04-2001, 01:20 AM
Well, Dear Abasan, it seems that you have never practiced in Japan. When you do, you will understand what I meant in my post ;-)

PeterR
12-04-2001, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by Edward
Well, Dear Abasan, it seems that you have never practiced in Japan. When you do, you will understand what I meant in my post ;-)
Well that is a strange comment. I've trained for several years in Japan and see as much value in Ahmad's post as your own.

If your partner is near your own level or doing reasonable for his own the best training is just repeditive execution of the waza (establishing the rythm). If your kohei needs help talk, if your sempai thinks you need help listen.

j0nharris
12-04-2001, 08:09 AM
We have always been instructed that in any group of students (2 or more), that whoever is senior in the group should feel free to offer help to the other(s).
If you are senior in a group of three, but sensei is watching, then it is sensei's place to make corrections, etc....
One of the main reasons for this is to avoid having too many people saying too many different things, though, hopefully, the senior students' understanding of waza will be somewhat close to Sensei's.
And certainly, if your partner asks how his/her technique feels, be honest with them to help improve their center.

-jon

Edward
12-04-2001, 08:26 AM
Originally posted by PeterR

Well that is a strange comment. I've trained for several years in Japan and see as much value in Ahmad's post as your own.

If your partner is near your own level or doing reasonable for his own the best training is just repeditive execution of the waza (establishing the rythm). If your kohei needs help talk, if your sempai thinks you need help listen.

Thanks for your comment, Peter. What I meant is that the japanese, being more refined than other nationalities, have very subtle ways to show what you are doing wrong without speaking a single word. That's better than interrepting your training with a dissertation about the phylosophical importance of the technique, because by the time the Sempai finishes his lecture, the training of this technique would be finished and Sensei will demonstrate another one. I would like to illustrate my point of view with an example of something which occured tonight at my training. Sensei gave us a new version of Katatetori Shihonage. I was practicing with a 4th Dan who studied several years in Japan. Even though I thought I was doing fine, my Sempai found that there are ways to improve my technique. He did not open his mouth. When it was his turn to execute, he did very slowly, emphasizing the points that he thought I was doing wrong. And I understood. I am not a moron, you know. After I followed his silent directions, he started resisting slightly my technique in order to test it. And it was fine. Now this is what I call valuable teaching.

Johan Tibell
12-04-2001, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by Speireag
On this latter point, I have sometimes had a senior student "jam" me, and then offer instruction. Even though I generally did learn something from it, I do see Sensei's point; if possible, the student should always figure it out for him/herself. That way, the student learns it more thoroughly and intimately than if it's simply told and the student gets enough of a superficial understanding to make the movement work in that particular case.

-Speireag.

All too often students resist nage's techniques in ways which are not "correct" just because they "know" their way is correct and as long as you don't do the technique their way they resist. Often resisting this way makes you vunerable to atemi or other techniques. One thing comes to mind, keeping your elbows straight (lock the elbow joint) when resisting morotedori kokyu-ho, if nage wanted he/she could simply grab beneath uke's elbows and pull and brake the joint. Of course I don't want to do that sort of things and think people should realize that they're doing it wrong, unfortuneatly many people don't.

Regards,

Johan Tibell

Johan Tibell
12-04-2001, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by [Censored]

If you make a comment on your partner's technique, they have the choice to consider or ignore that comment. If you keep your mouth shut, you've given them no choice.

People who want to learn on their own, generally do not take a class.

Every been to Japan? They teach by showing and then doing (at least in Iwama).

Regards,

Johan Tibell

Johan Tibell
12-04-2001, 10:17 AM
At 6th kyu I knew how to do ikkyu so after that point I was able to teach others to do it...

At 5th I really knew how to do ikkyu so at 5th kyu I should be able to teach it right?
I mean I was pretty sure during a month or so I knew how to do it...

At 4th kyu...

At 3rd kyu...

And so on.

Do you all get my point? Before you teach someone you have to be very sure you're doing it right or you will just hurt their training...

Regards,

Johan Tibell

PeterR
12-04-2001, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by Edward
What I meant is that the japanese, being more refined than other nationalities, have very subtle ways to show what you are doing wrong without speaking a single word. That's better than interrepting your training with a dissertation about the phylosophical importance of the technique, because by the time the Sempai finishes his lecture, the training of this technique would be finished and Sensei will demonstrate another one.
Point taken Edward and I agree completely. I only add that even in Japan you can get stuck with a sempai with more mouth than knowledge although this particular creature is far more common in the west.

I think it needs to be learned how and when to help and correct. Sometimes its best just to let the rythm take your kohei on the path of self discovery (poetic huh). If you have to correct the best thing is to choose one or two points and leave the rest for another time. What the talkers fail to realize is that they are loosing their own practice time.

I was a bit harsh in my earlier comment - it sounded like Ahmed was being shut down with the old - well I studied in Japan. Reading your response I am sure you did not mean it that way.

Edward
12-04-2001, 11:06 AM
No problem, Peter. I probably didn't explain myself sufficiently the first time.

Abasan
12-06-2001, 01:59 AM
Too true, I have not been to Japan to train yet. Hopefully in the future though, even if its just to see Iwama the Hellish Dojo as my sempai describes it.

Sure, Edward... a sempai who can correct your mistakes without words are wonderful creatures. They are rare though. And most Kohai are not as independant as you and may find themselves frustrated by improper techniques.

But then again, different situations call for diffent strategies. So there's probably a time to speak and a time to keep quiet.

Johan though raises an interesting point. However, as someone has already said, when do we actually stop being a student? Never... we continuously learn and unlearn throughout our lives. If you wait till perfection before doing something, you won't do anything at all. I'm not saying we should rush out and start teaching at 6th,5th or 4th kyu. But if we are sure of a technique, our role should be to correct a beginners obvious mistakes. Not teach. Leave the teaching to the pros.

Duarh
12-06-2001, 02:38 AM
What I, being a lowly white belt, hate most is when someone who has trained maybe a month more than I trains with me and starts teaching with 100% confidence in his/her own truth. That is, I'm not at all against learning from someone who has trained even less then I, but I just hate when someone 6thkyuish says 'Don't look at the way he did it, that's wrong. I know how to do it' after a nidan has come around to show me (Yes, I actually HAVE experienced this)

But otherwise, I've learned lots from 4th kyus (who are not so far advanced as sensei so they still remember teaching the very, very basics which sensei sometimes takes for granted) and 2-1th kyus. I'm not at all against student-student teaching, if it's on a moderate level.

Toms

Thalib
12-06-2001, 05:37 AM
There is a world of difference between teaching and telling.

What has been said so far about the "smart alec" students telling another what to do, it is just that, telling, not teaching. Do not mistake the two. Teaching is a noble art, and not many are able to follow this path.

It is believed that there was already a post stating what teaching is all about. It is not, "I know how it is done." Not, "This is how it is done." But teaching is, "Let's learn together on how it is done and so far this is what have been learnt..."

The difference is actually on the mindset of the one that is involved. When one believes that oneself knows everything, one actually knows nothing, and the skill would eventually die out. But, when one believes that oneself is still inadequate in one's pursuit of knowledge, one will always try to better oneself, and the skill would eventually be ever-lasting and ever-expanding.

Telling is only an empty shell, meaningless, useless. Many people only tell what they know, not teach what they know. It is not easy to teach. Be blessed to those who knows how to teach, for it is a noble art.

Teaching is learning, learning is teaching.

Edward
12-06-2001, 11:07 AM
Well, as someone already said somewhere in this thread, if you really have to speak, keep it to a minimum. If speaking is silver, silence is gold, as the Germans say.

[Censored]
12-06-2001, 12:33 PM
Every been to Japan? They teach by showing and then doing (at least in Iwama).

Well, if they do it in Iwama, I suppose the technique is beyond improvement.

Arianah
12-06-2001, 01:48 PM
I have just today learned the true value of silence on the mat. Wanting more time to practice, a fellow student and I set up a time to meet and go over a few throws outside of class. Though this person makes a great mat partner when in class, outside of class, when he can speak freely, he began teaching me, as if he had been doing Aikido for ten years and this was my first day :rolleyes: (we have both been practicing for the same amount of time. In fact, I have practiced more than he.) I didn't think he would ever shutup, and began to be especially annoyed when he started contradicting Sensei. :mad: I have a new-found appreciation of the no-talking rule on the mat. I still maintain that a beginner who is completely confused could benefit from a little prompting from a more advanced student (ex. "step back" end), but I can see where the arrogant students with nothing of real value to share can get annoying when they begin to teach on the mat.

Arianah

Richard Harnack
12-06-2001, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by Arianah
I have just today learned the true value of silence on the mat. Wanting more time to practice, a fellow student and I set up a time to meet and go over a few throws. Though this person makes a great mat partner when in class, outside of class, when he can speak freely, he began teaching me, as if he had been doing Aikido for ten years and this was my first day :rolleyes: (we have both been practicing for the same amount of time. In fact, I have practiced more than he.) I didn't think he would ever shutup, and began to be especially annoyed when he started contradicting Sensei. :mad:...Arianah

Some people seem to only be able to learn when they hear themselves say it. However, those who talk instead of training are not learning anything.

It is appropriate to ask your Sensei to come over and instruct you in the technique you are attempting to learn. This way the other person may actually learn something too.

Enjoy.

Edward
12-06-2001, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by Richard Harnack


It is appropriate to ask your Sensei to come over and instruct you in the technique you are attempting to learn. This way the other person may actually learn something too.


Well, this is a great idea. Not only that, but usually your Sensei will show you the technique by demonstrating on your partner, so choose a really painful one ;)

Speireag
12-07-2001, 03:47 AM
Speireag:
Yes and no. If I'm trying to apply myself fully to the training, I don't necessarily want to spend the energy evaluating my partner's comments. My partner is generally welcome to comment afterward, but while we are training, I would rather train, and concentrate on that.

[Censored]:
Who allocates your energy? You or someone else?

Speireag:
Make no mistake; I sometimes want verbal feedback. I certainly have benefitted from it. And I know how to ask for it when I want it.

[Censored]:
Do you know how to ignore it when you do not want it?

Speireag:
Since I can ask for verbal feedback if I want it, by *not* commenting, my partner frees me to work on the non-verbal level.

[Censored]:
You are free regardless. Sorry, but the prison is your mind, pal.

When I practice with others who are in this same trap, I usually keep my mouth shut. Do not mistake this for the proper training method. This is giving a handicap to a beginner.

It's hard to know how to reply productively to a post such as this. You're making a lot of assumptions, in a tone which is condescending and arrogant. Since I don't know why you reacted in that way, I won't attempt to reply in detail. I'll just say that I hope that you study sincerely and that your study bears fruit.

Best wishes,

-Speireag.

[Censored]
12-07-2001, 12:39 PM
It's hard to know how to reply productively to a post such as this. You're making a lot of assumptions, in a tone which is condescending and arrogant. Since I don't know why you reacted in that way, I won't attempt to reply in detail.

You have been distracted by trivialities and you are therefore in no position to deal with the real substance. Is this how you bring your Aikido practice into your daily life?

If this was an actual attack, instead of a calm Internet discussion, that kind of response might just get you killed. You know?

I'll just say that I hope that you study sincerely and that your study bears fruit.

Thanks. I hope you won't look a gift horse in the mouth. ;)

unsound000
12-13-2001, 12:36 AM
The Kodenkan school takes teaching as a responsibility of everyone in the dojo.
http://www.ajjf.org/dojos/kodenkan/


Originally posted by Chocolateuke
what do you think of having students teach?

Edward
12-13-2001, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by [Censored]
[B]
If this was an actual attack, instead of a calm Internet discussion, that kind of response might just get you killed. You know?



Usually in Aikido, we follow a certain etiquette of being courteous to each other. I see now that you practice Hawaiian Ju-Jutsu not Aikido. I hope you follow a similar etiquette in your art too.

Edward
12-13-2001, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by unsound000
The Kodenkan school takes teaching as a responsibility of everyone in the dojo.
http://www.ajjf.org/dojos/kodenkan/



Sorry Jon,

I confused you with censored. Please accept my apologies.

Best regards,
Edward

[Censored]
12-13-2001, 04:06 PM
Usually in Aikido, we follow a certain etiquette of being courteous to each other. I see now that you practice Hawaiian Ju-Jutsu not Aikido. I hope you follow a similar etiquette in your art too.

I have been courteous enough to mirror your misconceptions. This is a courtesy I do not normally grant to Aikido practice partners, much less strangers, because they cannot handle the pressure gracefully.

Prove me wrong.

Richard Harnack
12-13-2001, 04:31 PM
Joshua & Chris -
After reading your most recent colloquy I can only conclude that you both have reached an impasse beyond which lies an increase in recriminations.

As a favor to myself, would you be so kind as to move your colloquy to private e-mails.

I realize this a selfish request on my part, but one I am making.

Thank you.

shihonage
12-13-2001, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by Richard Harnack
Joshua & Chris -
After reading your most recent colloquy I can only conclude that you both have reached an impasse beyond which lies an increase in recriminations.

As a favor to myself, would you be so kind as to move your colloquy to private e-mails.

I realize this a selfish request on my part, but one I am making.

Thank you.

Speireag
12-13-2001, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by Richard Harnack
Joshua & Chris -
After reading your most recent colloquy I can only conclude that you both have reached an impasse beyond which lies an increase in recriminations.

As a favor to myself, would you be so kind as to move your colloquy to private e-mails.

I realize this a selfish request on my part, but one I am making.

Thank you.

Richard -

I think that you may be confusing me with some of the people who replied more recently. (Chris may also have done the same thing in his most recent post, but it's not clear from the context.) I last replied to this thread on December 07, and had not intended to reply after that.

Yesterday I caught up with recent replies to the thread, and saw a way to contribute something productive, though I may not have the time to do it for a few days. If I do, I do not think that you will object to the content or tone.

Best wishes,

-Speireag.

Richard Harnack
12-13-2001, 08:18 PM
Originally posted by Speireag


Richard -

I think that you may be confusing me with some of the people who replied more recently.

-Speireag.
Joshua -
If it is your picture that Aleksey has put up then I am more than a bit confused. :)

I was responding to the tone of the last few posts done under both yours & Chris' names.

Anyhow, sigh....

shihonage
12-13-2001, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by Richard Harnack

Joshua -
If it is your picture that Aleksey has put up then I am more than a bit confused. :)


No, its the picture of your post.
Metaphorically speaking :eek:

Chocolateuke
12-13-2001, 10:25 PM
wow all because some 17 year old wise guy asked about student teaching we have joker pics on the post and war. CU slowly walkes backwards and runs until.. I thought this up and wanted to ask y'all it has to do with females. um girls develop these round soft spots just below the neck and sometimes they are kind distracting does anyone else have this problem? and do you believe if girls have to wear shirts guys have to also or vice versa? just some thought from a 17 year old :) ( no offence girls) well have fun arguing hope the post gets some harmony kicked in. and girls do you ever feel looked on by guys??

shihonage
12-13-2001, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by Chocolateuke
um girls develop these round soft spots just below the neck and sometimes they are kind distracting does anyone else have this problem?

It's called "Adam's apple".
What kind of girls are you hanging out with, anyway ?

unsound000
12-14-2001, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by Chocolateuke
I thought this up and wanted to ask y'all it has to do with females. um girls develop these round soft spots just below the neck and sometimes they are kind distracting does anyone else have this problem? and do you believe if girls have to wear shirts guys have to also or vice versa?

I have the problem of finding them distracting...but it's a good problem, one I'm willing to spend time on. Though it be a lonely job, I will perservere. Seriously though, I've worked out with girls that had the hair, the makeup, perfume, the whole bit. That was a little distracting for the 16 yr old guy I was. I think a lot of it is just maturity level to be able to keep everything on the work out level. ahhhh...distractions...

Creature_of_the_id
12-14-2001, 03:24 AM
Read through the posts and thought I'd join in on the whole talking versus silence debate.
not going to argue for either side.

I can see value in all types of training, to say that one way is less effective than another or to say that there should be no teaching on the mat other than sensei can be a bit of an extremist view.
but also a valid view if that is how you wish to train.

My point is, in watching we learn, in listening we learn, in doing we learn, in teaching we learn.

why limit the tools that we can use to progress?

if someone is telling you how to do something then why not allow them? they are doing themselves more benifit than you usually anyway. I sometimes encourage lower grades to teach me technique just so they can break it down in their heads and verbalise it and have to understand it. there are so many tools for learning.

another point...
we all have a choice in how to react to anything. if we expect to train in silence or in a certain way and our partner does not behave in that way then our expectations are not met and we tend to react emotionally.. get angry, frustrated etc.
if we remove the expectation then we can find harmony with every training partner and every moment. isnt that the aiki way?

in randori if we expect a certain attack then we limit ourselves to certain movement. the attack does not come and we get hit and hurt, if we remove expectation then we can blend and find harmony with all attacks. by applying this to our life, removing expectations of people we remove judgements of how they behave and we allow ourselves acceptance of all, realising our own choice in how we react and that we cannot be to blame for someone elses choice of reaction.

if we continue to say.. this is right, this is wrong... we get no where, we continue to judge and so get hurt. right and wrong are not absolute, they are defined individually through our own limited experiences, if we had different experiences then we would have different values. so why hold onto them when they are so limited? they create resistance and conflict with others limitations.

let go of right and wrong, understand that the resistance is a choice and find harmony with all.
or dont, it is your choice and i will not judgeyou for it, just find harmony with you ;)

(how did I get all that from a teaching on the mat post? i'll end my monologue)

with love
Kev

guest1234
12-14-2001, 06:47 AM
I would be able to ignore those who insist on telling you what to do if all they did was talk while training.:rolleyes:
Unfortuanately, they seem unable to move their mouth and anyother body part at the same time, and waste my training time, usually telling me something that is their usually incorrect version of what the teacher just showed.
These folks should limit their talking to while they are moving (preferably while they are NAGE)...if their partners value their instruction they could listen then.

Arianah
12-14-2001, 07:34 AM
Chocolateuke:
um girls develop these round soft spots just below the neck . . . and girls do you ever feel looked on by guys??

I've never been looked at etc. But one time I was partnered with this one guy and we were doing nikyo. When I attempted to pull his hand to my shoulder, I misjudged where my shoulder actually was a little bit :o . . . ehem . . . then he began saying "ha ha, I touched your boob!" :eek:

Arianah

Post Script: By the way, Kev, yours was a very thoughtful and interesting post. I believe that teaching is a very valid means of learning, but I must also agree with Colleen that it is sometimes at the sacrifice of someone else's practice time. I think it is valid for someone to feel frustrated at another because s/he is doing nothing but talking when they are supposed to be doing technique. Where I agree that we have to let go of certain expectations, I still expect that when I am paired with someone for practice that we will practice . I think it is less of a matter of "We have to practice in silence or else it isn't right!" than it is of "We have to practice!" I am all for sempai giving quick, precise corrections, and for kohai to validate what they have learned by saying, "now you step back, right?" but when someone starts giving a sermon on the mat, it becomes a problem.

Arianah

Creature_of_the_id
12-14-2001, 07:46 AM
Hi Arianah,
of course it is valid, any response or reaction is valid. One of my points is that being frustrated is a choice. So you cannot really blame someone else when you choose to be frustrated over their actions because they do not meet up to your own expectations of how they should behave.

everyone has views on how to train as this thread shows very clearly, all views on how to train are based on personal experience. all experience is limited and in judging someone else actions you are claiming that your own limited experiences are more valid than someone elses.

my point in all this is... you cannot be effected by anyone any more than you choose to be. not very many people enjoy feeling frustrated... so why choose to?

From my persepctibe making a choice such as that is all about control. We become frustrated because others are not behaving in a way that we want them to, and so we become frustrated, we do not see that the only thing that we can control is our own choice within any given moment.

in order to get around these frustrations I simply acknowledge that I have no control over others, other than that which they believe that they give me. I remove my expectations and limited beliefs of how tat person will behave and find harmony with whatever they are doing.
there is no frustration because their is no judgement or conflict, there is only harmony and the experience of relating to that person in whatever form that takes.

that for me is aikido... what I do on the mat is just an art form that reflects these thoughts and actions and puts them in a form that people can absorb.

(can you tell I have nothing to do at work today?)

with love
Kev

Richard Harnack
12-14-2001, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by shihonage


No, its the picture of your post.
Metaphorically speaking :eek:

I'm underwhelmed.

[Censored]
12-14-2001, 02:25 PM
Unfortuanately, they seem unable to move their mouth and anyother body part at the same time, and waste my training time, usually telling me something that is their usually incorrect version of what the teacher just showed.

If it is incorrect, it can be ignored or countered. If it cannot be ignored or countered, it must not be incorrect.

Johan Tibell
12-15-2001, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by [Censored]
If it is incorrect, it can be ignored or countered. If it cannot be ignored or countered, it must not be incorrect.

Well, it's not always that simple. One technique can be correct at a certain level but at a higher it's not good enough. There arevery few techniques that a good instructor can't counter.

Regards,

Johan Tibell

Arianah
12-17-2001, 01:02 PM
Many have said in this thread that they become annoyed when a student attempts to teach them. I've been thinking about this topic quite a bit lately. In a previous post on this thread, I related my experience with a fellow student attempting to teach me, and my annoyance at this. I began to wonder why it was that when he told me things that would help my technique (which were very good points now that I think about it, and have made my throws more effective when I incorporate them) that I became irritated with him, while others may teach me on the mat and I accept their advice with interest and gratitude. I think now that it is intention behind the comments that may make students teaching other students a good or bad experience. In the case of this particular student, he gave me tips not to help me become better at technique, but used them as an opportunity to point out what was wrong with my technique and to prove that he knew more than I. If the intention of on-mat student-to-student teaching is to help and improve, I think that it can be very beneficial (even if their comments are "wrong," if said with good intention, it is much less irritating than if they had said it to prove that they were smart), but there are "helpful" students who are just trying to feed their ego. While I am rather glad that he pointed these things out to me now, I can also see how this kind of attitude could ruin otherwise helpful advice.

Arianah

[Censored]
12-17-2001, 02:17 PM
Well, it's not always that simple. One technique can be correct at a certain level but at a higher it's not good enough. There arevery few techniques that a good instructor can't counter.

Right. Point is, if YOU cannot counter or ignore it, YOU are not currently qualified to deem it incorrect. This is far more valuable information than the achievements of your predecessors.

...If the intention of on-mat student-to-student teaching is to help and improve, I think that it can be very beneficial (even if their comments are "wrong," if said with good intention, it is much less irritating than if they had said it to prove that they were smart), but there are "helpful" students who are just trying to feed their ego.

If you want to learn how to deal with uncooperative and selfish people, you must practice with those people. Or with people playing that role sincerely. ;)