Sparring in Aikido? [Archive] - AikiWeb Aikido Forums

Aikibu

08-02-2007, 06:11 PM

Joseph Madden

08-02-2007, 08:19 PM

I have been studying Yoshinkai aikido for the last 6 years and sparring is mostly done on a one to one basis after regular classes have finished. On occasion when a group of seniors is getting ready for a dan test, our sensei will allow us to have the dojo free for 2 to 3 hours on a weekend to prepare for the test. You often spend a lot of time on jiyu waza. However, I do agree with William in that caution should be exercised in that you will not be wearing protection of any kind (I've got the dislocated fingers and bruises to prove it).

Roman Kremianski

08-02-2007, 11:09 PM

What kind of sparring are you looking for?

I see some recommending jiyu waza, which is not sparring, so I thought I'd ask.

ChrisHein

08-03-2007, 12:18 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGJCl6IS_xQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s28eQuw9oI

Here are two videos of what we would can Randori at our school. There isn't any striking in this, are you looking for striking , or just live resistive training? We call Jiyu waza another thing, where there is an "uke" and he is pretty much going to go down, but come at you with spontaneous attacks.

nikau

08-03-2007, 01:51 AM

look for a good sensei and learn aikido.

if your worried about sparring etc - cross-train.

find a boxer /muay thai and a judoka who regularly want to practice together.

philippe willaume

08-03-2007, 05:35 AM

Hello
So before anyone goes about the deadly, the street, training with resistance and all the other commonly tossed around buzz word.
Of course resistance training is important but one need to understand that there is a perequation to be made between risk and sparing.

I spar very regularly with longsword (IE weighted shinai with a cross guard) with only a fencing helmet. That is fine as a medieval cut only relies on tip velocity, so it does hurt but all in all, there is a very limited chance of injury if things go tits up. (I.e. some trip or jump into a blow).
When you join our fencing school, you spar the first day but for the 6 first months, you will only spar with instructor and senior students.

As it happens I believe that medieval wrestling and aikido is a beast of same nature and if I am happy to spar with a shinai, I am definitely not happy to spar using aikido/medieval wrestling.

The real danger with sparing is not when things go right, it is when they go wrong, I.e. the opponent trip, go the wrong way or do not see the technique coming.

I have been caught by surprise by a few choke when I am rolling around with my BJJ/MMA practicing nephew. No arm done other than earning, "here I got you old man "and him taking the Mickey at funny noise I make before I pass out.
At the end, BJJ is a relatively safe environment, especially since we started from and in guard.

Now if you want nikkio to be successful against a resisting opponent. let say against a strike or a gab to the upper body or if parries one of our high strike. (And we assume that we have broken is balance so that we have a window to apply the technique and that nikko is the technique that make sense here.)

In its simplest expression you need to be ultra direct:
We need to capitalise of the window of opportunity and we need to have control before he can strike or kick or grab our leg(s).
You need to control the wrist and attack the elbow at the same time. (IE striking the elbow down and moving you body to control the wrist).
Basically the idea is to keep the member isolated whilst we apply overwhelming force (in the Newtonian understanding of the term).
basically what we would do if we were rolling around...

It is all well and good in a controlled environment, like in chris video or in form work with resistance (i.e. we start with that grab or this strike (or combination) and uke tries to hit and then resist the technique and you break off if nothing has happen for 30 sec or something like that. (and then you can add changing the technique to take advantage of his resistance and so on…)

But I think it is a bit too risky in proper free sparing, you can do it once and while but only with selected people.
It a question of balance between the risk of injury and the seriousness of the said injury and the likely frequency at all proficiency level when sparing.

Dewey

08-03-2007, 08:19 AM

I have not heard of many dojos that involve heavy sparring... I live in NJ and the teacher here is supposedly very good and will teach a lot, but I think much of self defense is in the person practicing the art, and being able to put it into use.

That said, I am wondering what the comments are on this. I have been thinking about joining an Aikido dojo in NJ (http://www.aikidocenters.com/) but I don't think they have any sparring involved. Randori is a little structured, it seems nobody is actually "attacking" but really just bum rushing.

Muscle memory and quickness of movement under stress is something that develops ability in almost any sport or self defense. If I'm playing tennis, I need to react quickly and judge quickly where I want to hit the ball on a return. Why is it that no Aikido schools teach contact sparring?

Much obliged for any help.

In response:

There is no need to "teach" contact sparring if you use Randori properly... If you look on some of the VID sites like You Tube you'll catch vids of proper Randori from the likes of O'Sensei, Shioda, Tomiki, Imazumi,Seagal, Matsuoka, Chiba, Nishio, Yamada Sensei's ect ect ect.

Hello
So before anyone goes about the deadly, the street, training with resistance and all the other commonly tossed around buzz word.
Of course resistance training is important but one need to understand that there is a perequation to be made between risk and sparing.........
But I think it is a bit too risky in proper free sparing, you can do it once and while but only with selected people.
It a question of balance between the risk of injury and the seriousness of the said injury and the likely frequency at all proficiency level when sparing.

In the same vein as the above-noted responders: sometimes it's just a matter of semantics in regards to the differences between sparring and randori (i.e. what the definition of "is" is sort of thing); but can also be how that particular dojo trains.

When I first began Aikido, I was gung-ho and wanted to go full throttle from the moment I stepped onto the mat. However, as I quickly found out, safety must always be paramount in the dojo. Contrary to the unjust stereotype that Aikido has been given by some folks, it can be very dangerous if you don't know how to properly take ukemi (breakfalls). You can easily break your neck or any of your limbs if you fall on them wrong. That's why when you're a noob, they start out slow...oftentimes too slow for some folks' taste. Those who leave aikido most often leave within the first six months...sometimes because they're not doing uber-deadly techniques or full resistance training or sparring/randori yet. There's a reason: safety.

Once you learn how to properly take ukemi (which can take anywhere from a few months to more than a year depending upon how much mat time you put in as well as inclination/motivation/dedication), then the pace can pick up as well as the intensity of the attacks. Sparring/randori as well as full-resistance training comes once you're able to do it safely.

Also, if you decide to investigate Aikido further (both in person at local dojos as well as on the internet), you will quickly discover that Aikido is not homogonous or monolithic: there are several different types/styles of Aikido. Some are very martially-oriented, while others are not at all, and many somewhere in between. The rub is: they're all equally "Aikido"!

Caveat emptor.:D

darin

08-03-2007, 10:44 AM

There is no need to "teach" contact sparring if you use Randori properly... If you look on some of the VID sites like You Tube you'll catch vids of proper Randori from the likes of O'Sensei, Shioda, Tomiki, Imazumi,Seagal, Matsuoka, Chiba, Nishio, Yamada Sensei's ect ect ect.

When we do Randori we don't use Gloves or Gear so caution and mindfullness prevail and if you focus on your breath and center with hard practice you can learn to "read and react" ala the "ODA Loop" properly under stress despite the lack of "ground and pound". LOL

You might also check a Systema School near you too.

William Hazen

I have to disagree with you here William. Most of those randori's you see on youtube are rigged. Granted those masters have excellent techniques but there is no way they would be able to defend against 5 to 10 trained men more than half their age if they were attacking for real. Put gloves on these attackers and ask them to go full out and those masters would get pounded. If they did win it wouldn't be by using standard randori aikido techniques.

Contact sparring is a valuable tool. We use it to help students get over their fear of being hit and also develop coordination and timing to hit someone else.

My teacher was a direct student of Minoru Mochizuki. He had trained in many styles of karate, aikido and weapons and worked as a bouncer and bodyguard. He also had experience in many street fights. His opinion was that aikido is only effective against one or two attackers, any more and you need to use karate.

Joseph Madden

08-03-2007, 11:38 AM

Contrary to what you've heard from the Russian (who, like every Russian in our dojo, thinks they know everything) jiyu waza is a form of sparring.If you want the kind of sparring that Roman insists is REAL sparring, go pick a fight with someone on the street. Also, why is someone studying MMA even doing on this web page. Teenagers, what are you gonna do?

Roman Kremianski

08-03-2007, 12:05 PM

Yeah, what do them silly cross trainin' Aikido kids know anyway. Shayaan, listen to the adults with teh true Aikido sparring. Who cares about what you actually want to get out of martial arts?

And Russian? Since when did I change nationalities? :uch:

DonMagee

08-03-2007, 12:25 PM

Sparring and stress training are not and should not just be the realm of the MMA athelete.

Even in the Koryu community there are conflicts about whether or not shiai, jiyu waza..etc are a suitable method of passing on knowledge. The inspired katas of our predissesors(sp) were generally the result of reflection on conflict. We need the conflict to reflect on, or our art becomes empty.

Stay true to your own training goals, thats the best advice I can give.

Osu

Overcoming adversity is the greatest gift sparing can give you. I have simply found not substitute for a good butt kicking. There are things that can never be learned though kata. How to deal with natural movement. For example, how will someone react when you grab their wrist? They could do a unknown number of things, learning how to read what they are going to do, and how to transition to something that will work against their movement really can only be learned though varying levels of resistance drilling and sparing.

This is not to say aikido guys should just throw on the gloves and go 100% all out. That would not help anyone. However, taking yourself out of the comfort zone and into the 'danger zone' that resistant drills and sparring provide you can be nothing but good. It reinforced good things, and points out bad things. Look at the difference between these two exchanges.

Situation one)

Same side wrist grab, you step to the side and perform an ikkyo, then a takedown. After a few reps the instructor stops you and tells you you did not have kuzushi and your technique would of failed.

Situation two)

This time you are in a same side wrist grab, the instructor demonstrated a few ways to use this position, you are now told to take this person down. You go for the same technique from above only this time the person steps with you because he hand his balance, reverse the ikkyo stands up and breaks the grip.

Both of these taught the same lesson. That you needed to get kuzushi. The difference is that with the first example, you might do this for 10 seconds to 10 minutes before someone corrects you. With the second example, you get immediate feedback from your partner. You can now actively try to break his balance, or possibly change to another technique when he tries to escape. You have now learned that sometimes people do things you didn't expect and will quickly learn how to develop your movements to counter them.

Lets use another example, Koto geshi.

Lets say you are doing a kata off a punch. You grab do the technique and your partner informs you he could of punched you in the face because of the distance and body position you took. You now have a dilema, you can adjust your technique, or you could argue that he was no committal and you were not able to finish, and this is why he had the time to see the opening. Had he not stopped you to point out the flaw, he would not be able to hit you.

Now imagine you have a partner who is told you hit you with 50-75% power, maybe he even has mma gloves on. You could possibly be wearing headgear. He starts throwing blows of varying speeds. You move around and start to try to defend. Now when you go for the technique, you get punched right in the face. Obviously, you now know for a fact your technique has a flaw. Back to some simply kata training, then throw the gear back on and try it again. Maybe you simply work on a counter to that face punch for when you screw up that technique, then the next time you do this drill, he punches, you counter and he ends up on his butt.

Eventually though all the sparing you will realize and see some interesting things. First, you realize that you don't really think when you spar, yet after the sparing is done, you realize how much you actually did think. You reflect on the match and realize how much you worked the setups, reversals, etc. But at the time of the match, you felt like it all too fast, and you didn't even have time to think. Then you realize how much you have grown when a new person comes in. You spar with him and see he is slower then dirt, unable to do the simplest of techniques, and you have time to play and try really off the way advanced stuff. In the end you realize he was just like you were when you started. You laugh the first time he gets punched in the face and just stalls out, turns away and covers, or runs. Finally, you take great pride the first time you throw a punch and he does none of those things, but defends properly and puts you on your butt.

You start to take pride in yourself, and in the littlest of things. You stop thinking about what ifs, you stop thinking about fighting as violence. One of the greatest moments of my martial art career happened on Wednesday night. I was sparing with a senior student in my bjj club. He has about 4-5 years on me in training, plus a brown belt in judo from when he was a kid. He's dominating me totally like always, I'm working 100% just to keep myself from being submitted. I'm panicking, nervous to make any movements, gassing myself out trying to muscle. I feel like a brand new white belt going against my first blue belt. FINALLY, I realize this and stop, it seems like forever, but just for a second I breathe, I listen, and I see the openings he is leaving for me. I go for one and escape side control, I take the back and work a choke, he escapes, I sweep him, then another moment and I'm in north south working a kimura. But in that moment the reality catches me and I get excited, and that was all he needed to escape out and put me back in guard. A few seconds later I'm tapping. Then the round ends. I ask him "Have I gotten any better?" as it has been months from the last time we rolled. His answer made my whole entire night. He said "This was the first time I actually had to work to beat you. I actually had to escape and try."

It wasn't winning a major competition, it wasn't beating some huge biker in a bar. It was knowing that I gave 100% everything I had, discovered a slight moment of clarity while under great stress, and made a person who has always dominated me work to beat me, even if it was just for a couple of seconds. There has been nothing I have done in the martial arts from the time I was 12 till now at age 27 that has made me feel as spiritual as that moment. There were no doubts in my mind of what I had achieved. A few minutes later, I'm rolling white a white belt, and I watch him make the exact same discovery.

Joseph Madden

08-03-2007, 12:48 PM

You will never learn to fight properly in a dojo...EVER! You want to fight someone. Go pick a fight. That's how the masters did it. This idea of cross training is frankly horse@#$%. This idea that if you know karate you can take on more than 2 opponents is horse#$%^ too. If you're in a situation where you may have to take on more than two opponents my advice would be to leave. Otherwise you'll be dead or badly injured. I don't care how much training you've had.Ever seen one trained bouncer take on 5 men. He ended up dead.
My apologies to Roman. Could have sworn you said you had a Russian
background.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino

08-03-2007, 12:59 PM

You will never learn to fight properly in a dojo...EVER! You want to fight someone. Go pick a fight. That's how the masters did it.

"You'll never learn to fight properly in boot camp. Just go on out there. Here's your gun. You'll figure it out."

Aikibu

08-03-2007, 02:19 PM

I have to disagree with you here William. Most of those randori's you see on youtube are rigged. Granted those masters have excellent techniques but there is no way they would be able to defend against 5 to 10 trained men more than half their age if they were attacking for real. Put gloves on these attackers and ask them to go full out and those masters would get pounded. If they did win it wouldn't be by using standard randori aikido techniques.

Contact sparring is a valuable tool. We use it to help students get over their fear of being hit and also develop coordination and timing to hit someone else.

My teacher was a direct student of Minoru Mochizuki. He had trained in many styles of karate, aikido and weapons and worked as a bouncer and bodyguard. He also had experience in many street fights. His opinion was that aikido is only effective against one or two attackers, any more and you need to use karate.

My teacher was an Uchi-Deshi of Shoji Nishio Shihan and I was priviledged to learn from Nishio Shihan directly over the last 20 years of his life So I would humbly Submit that our form of Aikido is by far one of the most Martial. I say this so that you understand why I said what I said.... Not to compare your excellent style with ours.

I DID NOT SAY watch the bad Aikido Randori Videos on You Tube Just the good ones. I assumed since you come across as an experianced Aikidoka you know the difference.

My Background in the Martial Arts spans 30 years and several arts.. Karate, Judo, Ju-Jitsu and MMA and I myself am looking for a good Systema Class to enhance my understanding of our Aikido which Shoji Nishio stated MUST measure itself against other arts in order to be Budo aka A Real Martial Art.

All of our Aikido is based on Striking (Atemi). Nuff Said.

I agree that it is a good idea to have some fundimental striking skills and we specifically teach students these basics ( Our Aikido has "Striking Kata and Randori") Beginners make allot of mistakes and they get hit. If I see a fear of being hit being exhibited then it's my job to specifically gear that students practice to understand and control that fear under duress. this may take time and is not an overnight process.

I respecfully disagree with your suggestion that Aikido doesn't work with mulitple attackers. If practiced properly it is possible to handle a few folks (aka More than two) having been in a few "street fights" it has served me well I don't proclaim myself to be anything other than a survivor and I give the Martial Awareness I learned through the years all the credit along with a large amount of good luck

If your Aikido is done with the rythem and flow of Atemi (Striking) then why do you have to digress to Karate??? I mean no disrepect by asking this question but I can't find where Mochizuki Shihan whom I hold in high regard actually said this.

My original suggestion to the young man still stands. Good Aikido EMPHASIZES Atemi so find a practice whose Sensei understands this.

Also find out what Atemi really means... It is has to do with much more than just socking someone in the face. HA HA HA HA

Now I will leave the rest of you to argue about "Street Fighting and other BS"

Yaaaaawn. Been There Done That.

William Hazen

DonMagee

08-03-2007, 02:22 PM

I DID NOT SAY watch the bad Aikido Randori Videos on You Tube Just the good ones. I assumed since you come across as an experianced Aikidoka you know the difference.

William Hazen

Can you link to some good randori videos on youtube?

Roman Kremianski

08-03-2007, 02:22 PM

Joseph, thanks for atleast being honest and revealing your lack of training.

Aikibu

08-03-2007, 02:23 PM

"You'll never learn to fight properly in boot camp. Just go on out there. Here's your gun. You'll figure it out."

Good Post

This is the best general rebuttal I have ever seen on this subject.

Boot Camp does not teach you to fight like an expert But it is a baseline from where all good combat soldiers come from.

William Hazen

Aikibu

08-03-2007, 02:26 PM

Can you link to some good randori videos on youtube?

Hi Don. If I had the time I would love to do that for you. Perhaps Jun could put up a critics corner here on AikiWeb that way we could catalog and rate those vidoes on You-Tube. I have seen a few mostly clips of Shioda and Aiki-Expo stuff.

William Hazen

I will try to get back to you.:)

akiy

08-03-2007, 02:32 PM

Perhaps Jun could put up a critics corner here on AikiWeb that way we could catalog and rate those vidoes on You-Tube.
Like the "Aikido Video Clips Links Category"?

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11980

-- Jun

Aikibu

08-03-2007, 02:49 PM

Like the "Aikido Video Clips Links Category"?

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11980

-- Jun

You have snatched the pebble from my hand.:)

LOL!

William Hazen

I am not slow... just thoughtful. :D

Demetrio Cereijo

08-03-2007, 03:07 PM

Like Brian Dewey said before, sometimes it's just a matter of semantics ...

Why don't start to "construct truly productive spontaneous training environments" like the ones described in D. Valadez On the Interdependent Nature of Tactics and Strategies (http://www.aikiweb.com/columns/thegrindstone/2005_11.html) article.

And, as we can see from the video clips included with Valadez article, no one ended seriously injured in these truly productive spontaneous training environments

Aikido is more than wristlocks....

Joseph Madden

08-03-2007, 07:05 PM

Roman Kremianski

08-03-2007, 07:31 PM

Sorry, just no room for ye old raving geezers. :D

Aikibu

08-03-2007, 07:32 PM

The average 8 year old can be taught how to use an AK47 in about 2 minutes. The average intelligent person can learn how to master a gun on their own with no training in about 10 minutes. Your boot camp analogy doesn't wash. That's why some of the greatest "trained" forces on the planet are getting their A#$es handed to them on a platter. And as far as training goes Roman, thank you for being honest. And proving to me that you are a child.

Look Joe With all due respect.... The greatest trained forces on the planet have yet to lose a "fight on the street" and the loss ratio is right around 150 "untrained AK 47 Shooters" for every Soldier.All if this has to do with thier training...In Fact No trained soldier has ever lost a single "stand up fight" engagement be it hand to hand or small arms since this BS began... War... like life is more than a stand up fight with a clear winner and loser and everytime you post you just display your ignorance of this simple point.

"If you want to run with the big dogs You had better learn to pee on the big trees or else you better get back up on the porch with the other puppies."

This means you Joe. :)

With all due apologies and copious expletives removed... 1st Sgt George C Conrad... Ranger... Warrior... Mentor... and The best Damn Irish Brawler I ever
saw. :)

William Hazen

Hint: Col Harry Summers USA: "You never beat us on the battlefield." Lt Col Phu NVA "This is true... But it is also irrelevent" From the book "On Strategy" By Col Harry Summers.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino

08-03-2007, 07:41 PM

The average 8 year old can be taught how to use an AK47 in about 2 minutes. The average intelligent person can learn how to master a gun on their own with no training in about 10 minutes. Your boot camp analogy doesn't wash.

Seriously, such a waste of time. Man, when will we learn.

My rebuttal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQQo0gfBHq0

It's not relevant at all, but your posts make so little sense that I think we're about even for total argumentative impact. And mine's cuter.

Roman Kremianski

08-03-2007, 08:32 PM

Leave him alone guys, he's the next Fidel Castro.

"Training? We don't need no training!!"

ChrisHein

08-03-2007, 11:33 PM

The average intelligent person can learn how to MASTER a gun on their own with no training in about 10 minutes.

I don't think you know anything about firearms.

darin

08-04-2007, 02:01 AM

I DID NOT SAY watch the bad Aikido Randori Videos on You Tube Just the good ones. I assumed since you come across as an experianced Aikidoka you know the difference.

My Background in the Martial Arts spans 30 years and several arts.. Karate, Judo, Ju-Jitsu and MMA and I myself am looking for a good Systema Class to enhance my understanding of our Aikido which Shoji Nishio stated MUST measure itself against other arts in order to be Budo aka A Real Martial Art.

All of our Aikido is based on Striking (Atemi). Nuff Said.

I respecfully disagree with your suggestion that Aikido doesn't work with mulitple attackers. If practiced properly it is possible to handle a few folks (aka More than two) having been in a few "street fights" it has served me well I don't proclaim myself to be anything other than a survivor and I give the Martial Awareness I learned through the years all the credit along with a large amount of good luck

If your Aikido is done with the rythem and flow of Atemi (Striking) then why do you have to digress to Karate??? I mean no disrepect by asking this question but I can't find where Mochizuki Shihan whom I hold in high regard actually said this.

My original suggestion to the young man still stands. Good Aikido EMPHASIZES Atemi so find a practice whose Sensei understands this.

Also find out what Atemi really means... It is has to do with much more than just socking someone in the face. HA HA HA HA

Now I will leave the rest of you to argue about "Street Fighting and other BS"

Yaaaaawn. Been There Done That.

William Hazen

Some nice comments there William. I checked out Nishio Sensei on youtube and yes he's emphasis is on effective aikido! Very nice techniques.

It was actually my teacher Unno Sensei who said that karate is more pratical against multiple opponents than aikido. His reason behind this was that aikido is essentially a grappling art. Traditional Yoseikan aikido emphasizes judo/jujitsu techniques over traditional aikido ones in randori therefore using sutemi, chokes and ground fighting will obviously limit your range in combat. Unno Sensei generally preferred karate when he fought. He told me he rarely had to use aikido because he'd just knock his opponent's out.

Minoru Mochizuki was basically a MMA pioneer however he was biased to judo as seen in his aikido. I don't really know what his theory on multiple opponents was. I have his book but haven't got around to reading the section on ninindori.

My reason for having a go at youtube is that those videos are basically rigged. Most of them are instructional or designed to show off a style.

Anyway I hoipe this doesn't turn out to be an argument. You have more experience than me and I see what your were trying to say. I agree with your point on atemi.

donplummer

08-04-2007, 03:56 AM

Please feel free to check out the "style" of Aikido called Nihon Goshen Aikido, we "spar" almost every class. I statrted out in a Hombu "style" and have transitioned to NGA very smoothly. I will return to Hombu once I have a solid base(my black belt, I hope) to start over. 9 plus years exprience here between the two "styles", and the stuff I do now, NGA, has been most helpful in forcing me to think on my feet. http://aikidoinc.comif you are interested, our headquarters happens to be in NJ.
Have a peek.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino

08-04-2007, 11:06 AM

Wow. I'd never really watched video of Nishio-sensei before, which was silly given how many good things I'd heard about him. I was very impressed. He had a sort of energetic, smooth movement that strikes me (accidental pun) as really unique. And yes, his use of atemi was noticeable. Nice to see someone actually implementing the "Aikido is (insert large number here)% aikido" idea.

Aikibu

08-04-2007, 12:18 PM

Some nice comments there William. I checked out Nishio Sensei on youtube and yes he's emphasis is on effective aikido! Very nice techniques.

It was actually my teacher Unno Sensei who said that karate is more pratical against multiple opponents than aikido. His reason behind this was that aikido is essentially a grappling art. Traditional Yoseikan aikido emphasizes judo/jujitsu techniques over traditional aikido ones in randori therefore using sutemi, chokes and ground fighting will obviously limit your range in combat. Unno Sensei generally preferred karate when he fought. He told me he rarely had to use aikido because he'd just knock his opponent's out.

Minoru Mochizuki was basically a MMA pioneer however he was biased to judo as seen in his aikido. I don't really know what his theory on multiple opponents was. I have his book but haven't got around to reading the section on ninindori.

My reason for having a go at youtube is that those videos are basically rigged. Most of them are instructional or designed to show off a style.

Anyway I hoipe this doesn't turn out to be an argument. You have more experience than me and I see what your were trying to say. I agree with your point on atemi.

No Worries Darin. I am glad you and Paul have discovered Nishio Shihan. :) I understand why Unno Sensei would want to use Karate in a dangerous encounter. Everyone has thier "Money Punch" aka "Knockout Blow"... A Favorite Technique they can execute without thought from muscle memory under duress. It's still Aikido as knocking someone out prevents them from further harm. :)

Nishio Shihan understood the practical nature of Budo very well... Which is why all our techniques start with a "Knockout Blow" so to speak. He used to say "In Aikido The fight is over at the moment of first contact." This "Knockout blow" is exactly what he meant. Nage should "accept (enter/Irimi) and influance (Atemi)" Uke to achieve harmony with him/Her "right off the bat" to end the conflict before it escalates into a Technique. :)

Nishio Sensei understood with O'Sensei blessing that Aikido must both survive and evolve as a Martial Art. His Aikido when applied as a Martial Art is very effective When combined with the Spirit of Aikido it becomes a tool in which a person can change from a Fighter to a Person of Peace. :)

I hope that last line makes sense. It is sometimes hard to articulate my feelings correctly. :)

William Hazen

ChrisHein

08-04-2007, 12:29 PM

I've never watched Nishio sensei much. He really is smooth. His ideas about Aikido seem sound, and practical. Does he ever train beyond theory though?

jennifer paige smith

08-04-2007, 12:34 PM

Aikibu

08-04-2007, 01:03 PM

I've never watched Nishio sensei much. He really is smooth. His ideas about Aikido seem sound, and practical. Does he ever train beyond theory though?

What kind of question is that? With all due respect Chris it's a silly question.

Show up at the next seminar with Yoshida Shihan and find out for yourself.:)

We've converted quite a few Theorists over the years. LOL

William Hazen

Aikibu

08-04-2007, 01:05 PM

Especially after munching a handful of those funny mushrooms they were handing out at the last rainbow gathering.

No-No, just kidding.

You articulated a sometimes difficult equation to map, which for me could boil down to "Peace is power used pacificly". Discover true power through excellent training and continue on your way.

I hope to see you at the next rainbow gathering. :)

William Hazen

jennifer paige smith

08-04-2007, 01:47 PM

I hope to see you at the next rainbow gathering. :)

William Hazen

Or perhaps at the next seminar your dojo hosts (hint-hint). I'll provide the rainbows.

I hope to train with many of you in the years to come.

Back to my cave,now.

Aikibu

08-04-2007, 02:24 PM

Or perhaps at the next seminar your dojo hosts (hint-hint). I'll provide the rainbows.

I hope to train with many of you in the years to come.

Back to my cave,now.

What else do you think I meant by "Rainbow Gathering" :D LOL I mean this is Malibu.:cool:

Surfs fun right now and I am outta here!

William Hazen

ChrisHein

08-04-2007, 08:33 PM

What kind of question is that? With all due respect Chris it's a silly question.

Show up at the next seminar with Yoshida Shihan and find out for yourself.:)

We've converted quite a few Theorists over the years. LOL

William Hazen

Funny thing I find about people who just do theory is that they don't know that they just do theory. I have not seen any video of him doing actual application, only theory.

I think your answer is more silly then my question. Most Aikidoka only do theory. Actually, from what I know save tomiki guys and Mits Yamashita, all teachers just do theory.

CNYMike

08-04-2007, 09:03 PM

..... Why is it that no Aikido schools teach contact sparring?

Mostly because that diverges from the founder's vision of Aikido. He didn't like the idea of a scenario where one person can "win" and another can "lose." Since sparring can lead to contests with winners and losers, no sparring.

You have to remember a martial art is not just a collection of techniques but a snapshot of whatever its founder was thinking. It doesn't matter which art you're doing; that's true of all of them. You're always getting the techniques and the founder's thinking, because if you become a teacher in that art, that's what you have to communicate.

Now, if you really want to spar more than anything, either (A) don't do Aikido and find another system more to your liking; or (B) train in both Aikido and another system at the same time. If you have the time, can afford it, and your instructors don't have a problem with it, do it if you want to.

Don't take Aikido and whine about not sparring; you won't be doing yourself any favors and you'll just be a pain to everyone who hears it.

Good luck!

Roman Kremianski

08-04-2007, 09:03 PM

Show up at the next seminar with Yoshida Shihan and find out for yourself.

Are there any place online to see videos of previous Yoshida Shihan seminars?

Aikibu

08-04-2007, 11:00 PM

Funny thing I find about people who just do theory is that they don't know that they just do theory. I have not seen any video of him doing actual application, only theory.

I think your answer is more silly then my question. Most Aikidoka only do theory. Actually, from what I know save tomiki guys and Mits Yamashita, all teachers just do theory.

Must be tough to be a big fish in a small pond...

Like I said before... I welcome the opportunity for you to show up at the next seminar with an open mind.Nishio Shihan only had 50+years of Aikido Judo Karate Iaido and Jodo Practice and was awarded Japan's highest civilian honor for his developments in Aikido before he passed away...

Jury's still out on your legacy...Practice Hard. :)

William Hazen

Aikibu

08-04-2007, 11:23 PM

Are there any place online to see videos of previous Yoshida Shihan seminars?

Not that I know of. Yoshida Shihan is really busy teaching in Europe Russia and The United States and I am sure he's being filmed all over the place now. :)

I think the Aikido Journal may have a few clips of him at a demonstration but as a rule Senior Yudansha of Nishio Shihan have not been into being filmed all that much. Shoji Nishio himself was very reluctant to expose too much because he was always refining his technique to match advancements in other Martial Arts and he felt the viewer would not appreciate or mistake what he/she saw as "The way we do it." Stan (Pranin) Finally convinced him to write something down before he passed, and the result was "Yurusu Budo" ("The Budo of Acceptance." Our Aikido)

Koji Yoshida lived with Nishio Shihan fulltime for over ten years as Uchi Deshi and has practiced andtaught Aikido for over 35 years. We were very lucky that Nishio Shihan appointed him US Represenative before he passed. He will eventually get more exposure here in the US we hope... As our Aikido as an organization is very small, and consists of a half a dozen dojos. In Europe and Japan our Aikido is huge but here we got a late state (Nishio Shihan first visited the States in the early 80's).

Sorry if this is TMI but I will provide stuff from Yoshida Shihan as it becomes availible to me. :)

William Hazen

ChrisHein

08-05-2007, 12:10 AM

Must be tough to be a big fish in a small pond...

Like I said before... I welcome the opportunity for you to show up at the next seminar with an open mind.Nishio Shihan only had 50+years of Aikido Judo Karate Iaido and Jodo Practice and was awarded Japan's highest civilian honor for his developments in Aikido before he passed away...

Jury's still out on your legacy...Practice Hard. :)

William Hazen

William, do you always take everything as an attack?

I'm not saying he's bad, or that I'm good. I'm not saying if he doesn't do application he sucks. I'm not saying that he doesn't know anything. I'm just asking if he does application. If so, is there a video I can watch, because that would be cool.

I'd love to train at his seminar. When is the next one, how much does it cost...

I'm not asking you to prove anything, but a little more info would be cool.

G DiPierro

08-05-2007, 12:12 AM

Mostly because that diverges from the founder's vision of Aikido. He didn't like the idea of a scenario where one person can "win" and another can "lose." Since sparring can lead to contests with winners and losers, no sparring.I've seen this rationale before and it makes no sense. How can you have any kind of two-person martial arts training without one person eventually winning and the other person losing? Certainly you have this in every aikido technique: the nage wins and the uke loses.

The reasons why there are no sparring in most styles of aikido originally were historical, but recently they have become mainly political. If you introduced realistic resistance training at this point in any of the major organizations that do not have it, a lot of people in powerful places would be shocked to find out how badly their techniques work against resistance (or at least their students who have been deifying them all these years would be).

Roman Kremianski

08-05-2007, 12:43 AM

Not that I know of. Yoshida Shihan is really busy teaching in Europe Russia and The United States and I am sure he's being filmed all over the place now.

I would be interested in training with him, but I can't financially and geographically. I think in the day of YouTube and Aikido forums asking for a video of one's teaching isn't such a big deal, so I don't see why it has to be a rule not to.

Aikibu

08-05-2007, 01:20 AM

William, do you always take everything as an attack?

I'm not saying he's bad, or that I'm good. I'm not saying if he doesn't do application he sucks. I'm not saying that he doesn't know anything. I'm just asking if he does application. If so, is there a video I can watch, because that would be cool.

I'd love to train at his seminar. When is the next one, how much does it cost...

I'm not asking you to prove anything, but a little more info would be cool.

No Worries Chris...Just a bit of verbal Irimi... Perhaps you want to revisit your "Theory versus Application" statement I don't think it comes across too well but perhaps it's just a question of semantics?

I'll pass on Seminar Info as soon as I get it. :)

William Hazen

CitoMaramba

08-05-2007, 03:13 AM

Are there any place online to see videos of previous Yoshida Shihan seminars?

I posted this URL before in the "Aikido is weapons technique" thread but it seems it was ignored. I get the feeling I'm on the "ignore" list of a lot of people. :D

Clips of Yoshida Sensei's seminar in Kiev (http://nishiobudo.org.ua/index.php?page=31&lan=en)

Happy Viewing!

Cito

darin

08-05-2007, 07:22 AM

No Worries Darin. I am glad you and Paul have discovered Nishio Shihan. :) I understand why Unno Sensei would want to use Karate in a dangerous encounter. Everyone has thier "Money Punch" aka "Knockout Blow"... A Favorite Technique they can execute without thought from muscle memory under duress. It's still Aikido as knocking someone out prevents them from further harm. :)

Nishio Shihan understood the practical nature of Budo very well... Which is why all our techniques start with a "Knockout Blow" so to speak. He used to say "In Aikido The fight is over at the moment of first contact." This "Knockout blow" is exactly what he meant. Nage should "accept (enter/Irimi) and influance (Atemi)" Uke to achieve harmony with him/Her "right off the bat" to end the conflict before it escalates into a Technique. :)

Nishio Sensei understood with O'Sensei blessing that Aikido must both survive and evolve as a Martial Art. His Aikido when applied as a Martial Art is very effective When combined with the Spirit of Aikido it becomes a tool in which a person can change from a Fighter to a Person of Peace. :)

I hope that last line makes sense. It is sometimes hard to articulate my feelings correctly. :)

William Hazen

Its interesting to see different strategies. I understand and agree with Nishio sensei's application of atemi in aikido. However I was never really taught that method. I really don't think there are many styles out there that do aikido like that. I mean a lot will say you can do atemi here and there but very few actually train for it to be second nature.

Unno Sensei despite teaching atemi always viewed it as a separate entity. His idea was that you use atemi if your timing isn't good enough, and that aikido doesn't need atemi if done properly. However he wasn't against using atemi in randori or while practicing techniques.

Hiro Mochizuki (Yoseikan Budo) has adopted a kick boxing/mui thai style of atemi using the wave principle to generate power. I remember seeing him in a video say that its very difficult and not practical to be passive and just hope to receive an attack and then apply a technique. His strategy is to duck and weave like a boxer to setup your opponent to commit to a punch or kick therefore giving you the opportunity to apply atemi and then do a throw or lock. I find this very interesting. (This is really Phil Farmer's territory as I have only a limited experience in Hiro Mochizuki's Yoseikan Budo. Hopefully he will come online and share their style's views on sparring).

jennifer paige smith

08-05-2007, 10:15 AM

I posted this URL before in the "Aikido is weapons technique" thread but it seems it was ignored. I get the feeling I'm on the "ignore" list of a lot of people. :D

Clips of Yoshida Sensei's seminar in Kiev (http://nishiobudo.org.ua/index.php?page=31&lan=en)

Happy Viewing!

Cito

Yeah, you're definitely in mine::grr:

ha-ha-ha.
I love your posts. you offer an interesting angle and are informed on many subjects. At times I have no idea what you might say next. That is refreshing.

CNYMike

08-05-2007, 11:21 AM

I've seen this rationale before and it makes no sense. How can you have any kind of two-person martial arts training without one person eventually winning and the other person losing? Certainly you have this in every aikido technique: the nage wins and the uke loses.

Even so, it's one thing to practice a prearranged technique, or know (in the case of randori) that you will always be uke or nage. But apparently, when you go totally freestyle, your ego kicks in and you try to "win." Even if no one is actually keeping score, you can still try to win. I learned this the hard way a coupel of years ago when we started sparring in Kali class. My instructor had us starting low intensity with just punches (the idea being over time to add more techniques and ramp up the intensity). He also had us all doing it at once so we wouldn't have the time watching another match to get nervous. I thought I had the idea down, but he shouted at me from across the room: "You're trying to win sir!"

"I am?" I called back, surprised.

"Yes, you are."

Sparring in class isn't supposed to be about winning or losing, just examining techniques in a freestyle format. But you have to learn to get your ego out of it. Prearranged training where you are always uke or nage short circuits that, too.

The reasons why there are no sparring in most styles of aikido originally were historical, but recently they have become mainly political. If you introduced realistic resistance training at this point in any of the major organizations that do not have it, a lot of people in powerful places would be shocked to find out how badly their techniques work against resistance .....

It seems to me the question then becomes to study how Aikido's principles would work against resistance. Is the person just pushing back against you? Then you have to blend with that energy. Is he trying to counter you? Then counter his counter. Is he just locking down and not moving? Then hit him the face; if he's going to give you a second, use it. :p

I also firmly believe in not being disrespectful to your teachers and your lineage. If O Sensei and everyone between you and him says "don't spar," don't spar. You don't care about that, do whatever you want. But I do.

Like I said, if you really want to spar, either don't do Aikido or crosstrain in something where you can spar, but don't do Aikdo and whine about it, and leave it the way it is.

ChrisHein

08-05-2007, 12:37 PM

But apparently, when you go totally freestyle, your ego kicks in and you try to "win." Even if no one is actually keeping score,

It seems to me the question then becomes to study how Aikido's principles would work against resistance. Is the person just pushing back against you? Then you have to blend with that energy. Is he trying to counter you? Then counter his counter. Is he just locking down and not moving? Then hit him the face; if he's going to give you a second, use it. :p
..................................................................................................
I also firmly believe in not being disrespectful to your teachers and your lineage. If O Sensei and everyone between you and him says "don't spar," don't spar. You don't care about that, do whatever you want. But I do.

Like I said, if you really want to spar, either don't do Aikido or crosstrain in something where you can spar, but don't do Aikdo and whine about it, and leave it the way it is.

NIce post there Michael.

I know what you mean about the winning. I'm pretty lucky in that most of my students try as hard as they can, but don't seem to be too attached to "winning". The problem with not trying to "win" is that you don't go as hard, and resist will all your ability, if you're not trying to win.

The problem with trying to win is, your ego gets attached to the "win" and not the training. You will do things like pervert the rules of the practice to win. Or you may become angry, and disconnected due to your desire to win.

Either way it's bad training. So what to do? You have to breed a special quality in yourself. You have to summon up your fighting spirit, and try as hard as you can. At the same time, you can't allow yourself to derive much pleasure from the victory, only the joy of training.

If it's the joy of training you're attached to, then win or lose you will train hard and honestly.

About not sparing because O' sensei said so. I don't think he ever said you shouldn't spar. I've heard lots of stories about him closing up the dojo to outsiders so he could do sumo. I've read plenty about his nature to compete, and to put himself through arduous training. I think he would really like sparing.

As to what your teachers think. Yes, I've known many teachers that are upset by "sparring". I've been yelled at, and told many times that what I'm doing these days isn't Aikido. One of my teachers told me many times that "wrestling around isn't Aikido".

But that's fine. It's a free world (even if some maniacal dictators say it's not). They can feel how they like about Aikido, and they're not wrong. Neither am I. They do Aikido their way, and I mine. Hopefully we can talk about it, and learn something from each other.

Hey Cito,
You're not on my ignor list. I usually like your posts.

deepsoup

08-05-2007, 12:58 PM

Now, if you really want to spar more than anything, either (A) don't do Aikido and find another system more to your liking; or (B) train in both Aikido and another system at the same time.

Or (C) find a dojo such as the one where I practice, and choose your training sessions accordingly. (You'd like our Monday night sessions a lot.)

Sean
x

G DiPierro

08-05-2007, 02:59 PM

But apparently, when you go totally freestyle, your ego kicks in and you try to "win."I think you mean to say that when you have tried freestyle training in the past, your ego has kicked in. When I do freestyle training, this is not a problem. I've also trained in other arts that have a dedicated non-competative freestyle resistance training component, and this is not a problem there either.
I also firmly believe in not being disrespectful to your teachers and your lineage. If O Sensei and everyone between you and him says "don't spar," don't spar.Well I never met or corresponded with Morihei Ueshiba, so he never told me anything. None of his direct students that I have trained with (over half a dozen) have told me not to spar either. M. Ueshiba was known to have a open policy where students could challenge him in a freestyle situation, even off the mat, but I do not know of many teachers in the aikikai today that would accept any kind of freestyle challenge. Perhaps the lone exception that I have encountered would be N. Tamura.

Like I said, if you really want to spar, either don't do Aikido or crosstrain in something where you can spar, but don't do Aikdo and whine about it, and leave it the way it is.It is interesting how often people want to define what aikido is and to determine who should and who should not practice it. Who really has that right? You could say the current doshu, but then you are talking about doing the doshu's aikido and not that of Morihei Ueshiba. And since the founder is dead, I don't think he is in any position to comment on what is and is not aikido. However, when he was alive he once remarked that what his son Kisshomaru was teaching was not his aikido, and his son has probably been the strongest influence on the development of post-war aikido, particuarly in the US aikikai-affiliated organizations. So perhaps none of what people in the US are doing today can be said to be the aikido of the founder. Either way, I really don't think anyone on an internet forum is qualified to say what aikido is, who should practice it, or how they should practice.

CNYMike

08-05-2007, 05:32 PM

I think you mean to say that when you have tried freestyle training in the past, your ego has kicked in. When I do freestyle training, this is not a problem. I've also trained in other arts that have a dedicated non-competative freestyle resistance training component, and this is not a problem there either.

First of all, what I mean to say is what I said. Don't tell me what I think. I will tell you. I don't like it when internet posters try to tell me what I'm really thinking. Please refrain from doing it.

In the second place, I didn't know I was trying to "win" until someone else pointed out to it. So the lesson I took from that experience is one can think his or ego and/or pride isn't kicking in when, in fact it is.

Well I never met or corresponded with Morihei Ueshiba, so he never told me anything .....

Ditto. So what? We have the art that's been passed down to us as well as the direct students still living and a ton of books about him and Aikido, so it's not like there are plenty of resources out there.

None of his direct students that I have trained with (over half a dozen) have told me not to spar either. M. Ueshiba was known to have a open policy where students could challenge him in a freestyle situation, even off the mat, but I do not know of many teachers in the aikikai today that would accept any kind of freestyle challenge. Perhaps the lone exception that I have encountered would be N. Tamura.

See above. :)

It is interesting how often people want to define what aikido is and to determine who should and who should not practice it .....

Well, I'm not interested in saying who should or shouldn't practice it. As for defining what it is or isn't, I think that's where one has to be careful.

I'll agree, O Sensei left a lot of wiggle room in passing down Aikido. Tomiki, Shioda, Shirata, and all his other students from the '30s were different from him and each other. That's true of the latter generation of his students and their students. There may be as many "styles" of Aikido as there are people practicing it, but one' style won't be recognized unless one's been wearing a hakima for a long time.

But I still think one has to be careful not to cross the line -- however amorphous it is -- between what Aikido is and what it isn't. Because part of what's going on in martial arts training is an oral tradition whereby the art is passed from generation to generation; that more than anything keeps it alive. That's why I keep saying that if someone wants to teach generic grappling, do it whichever way one wants, but if one wants to teach Aikido, specifically, there are more issues one has to deal with. If one chooses to ignore those things, that's that person's business, but it still has to be dealt with, like it or not.

G DiPierro

08-05-2007, 06:04 PM

First of all, what I mean to say is what I said. Don't tell me what I think. I will tell you. I don't like it when internet posters try to tell me what I'm really thinking. Please refrain from doing it.I never said anything about what you were thinking. What you wrote, exactly, was But apparently, when you go totally freestyle, your ego kicks in and you try to "win."Just from reading that sentence, it's unclear who is signified by the pronoun "you." Although you were replying directly to my post, you could not have been referring to me, since you have never seen me do freestyle. I also don't think you were referring generally to the readers of your post as that would mean that you would have had to observe many aikido students of various styles doing freestyle resistance training. Judging by the context of this statement -- the fact that you then went on to describe how one time when you tried resistance training you had problems with trying to win -- it seems as if you were talking about yourself, so I was suggesting that your choice of pronoun in that statement was a bit unclear and did not convey your true meaning. Since you disagree with this, why don't you explain exactly to whom (other than yourself) you were referring in that statement and what evidence has led you to this conclusion.
I'll agree, O Sensei left a lot of wiggle room in passing down Aikido. Tomiki, Shioda, Shirata, and all his other students from the '30s were different from him and each other. That's true of the latter generation of his students and their students. There may be as many "styles" of Aikido as there are people practicing it, but one' style won't be recognized unless one's been wearing a hakima for a long time.You mentioned K. Tomiki, who was one of Ueshiba's top pre-war students and the first recipient of the 8-dan rank from M. Ueshiba in 1940. He taught sparring as part of aikido. Yet you have said more than once that people who want to do sparring should not do aikido and should "leave aikido the way it is." I don't know how long you have been "wearing a hakama," as you put it, but I doubt that you are better qualified than Mr. Tomiki to determine whether sparring should be a part of aikido or whether people who want to do this kind of training have a place in aikido.

Roman Kremianski

08-05-2007, 06:47 PM

What kind of question is that? With all due respect Chris it's a silly question.

Show up at the next seminar with Yoshida Shihan and find out for yourself.

We've converted quite a few Theorists over the years. LOL

I don't really think that's what Chris meant with his question. Just watched the videos, and it seemed like standard Aikido. Maybe there's something I'm missing out?

I thought I had the idea down, but he shouted at me from across the room: "You're trying to win sir!"

To me, someone always had to win or lose. I just found I was not being fair to my partner if I didn't try to win.

I've learned to avoid jabs in Muay Thai because my partner aimed to hit me for real with every jab. I don't see how you and your partner can improve and step up your skills if neither pushes the pressure. My opinion.

Roman Kremianski

08-05-2007, 07:03 PM

And why does everything always have to be about ego? What happened to just the joy of training? Since when is sparring with your friend about buffing your ego and knocking him out? I just always hear this stuff from people trying to discourage sparring/freestyle. Everyone has an ego. Your human brain will naturally feel good when you "win" and a bit depressed when you "lose". There's a difference between feeling an ego boost when you see your skills progress, and just going apeshit and trying to smack your partner around.

Sorry, didn't edit previous post in time.

Ian Cottrill

08-06-2007, 02:21 AM

I think most Dojo's do allow freestyle sparring but not to low belts. It is like all sport, you need to learn the basics properly before you can learn more advanced techniques. With Aikido when you reach Black Belt you learn to fall your opponent slowly & gently even if they attack with much force, however a lower Belt cannot. It is obvious to see that you would go through quite a lot of Uke's if you started freestyle too soon.

Regards Ian.:)

Tony Wagstaffe

08-06-2007, 04:12 AM

CNYMike

08-06-2007, 12:28 PM

..... what evidence has led you to this conclusion.

Well, with regrad to the sparring incident, when Guro Andrew Astle explained what he calls practice sparring -- a concept he borowed from Thai Boxers -- he said the goal was to get our egos and pride and fear out of the way so we could eventually use sparring as a learning tool. And he added that right off, "None of you will be able to do it!" So when he said "You're trying to win," he proved he was right.

No, you weren't there, and no, you probably don't know my Kali instructor, so if you are going to quibble over such things .... don't bother.

You mentioned K. Tomiki, who was one of Ueshiba's top pre-war students and the first recipient of the 8-dan rank from M. Ueshiba in 1940 ..... I doubt that you are better qualified than Mr. Tomiki to determine whether sparring should be a part of aikido ....

Well, how many of his peers did the same thing Tomiki did? How many did not? That would be a good place to start. What did O Sensei think of what he did? Another clue.

Additionally, you may recall I referred to the specific lineage -- O Sensei -->A-->B-->C--->you. I think a student should listen to what those people have to say. If they say "No sparring!" no sparring. If they have another policy, follow that. If a student is not going to listen to those people, then what is he or she doing there in the first place?

CNYMike

08-06-2007, 12:32 PM

G DiPierro

08-06-2007, 12:44 PM

Well, with regrad to the sparring incident, when Guro Andrew Astle explained what he calls practice sparring -- a concept he borowed from Thai Boxers -- he said the goal was to get our egos and pride and fear out of the way so we could eventually use sparring as a learning tool. And he added that right off, "None of you will be able to do it!" So when he said "You're trying to win," he proved he was right.Obviously, if you have no experience with sparring, you will not be able to do it right. That's the best argument (apart from technical effectiveness) for regularly training in freestyle resistance training. Only through such regular training do you learn to let go of your attachment to winning and losing. I bet that if you asked Mr. Astle he would tell you the same thing.

Well, how many of his peers did the same thing Tomiki did? How many did not? That would be a good place to start.How many of Morihei Ueshiba's peers in Daito-ryu left to start their own martial art? By your logic, since he was the only one, we should conclude that the Ueshiba was wrong to "disrespect" his teacher and so we should all quit aikido and study Daito-ryu instead.

What did O Sensei think of what he did? Another clue.As far as I know, Morihei Ueshiba did not have any problems with Tomiki or what he was doing. It was his son Kisshomaru that did not approve of Tomiki's innovations.

Additionally, you may recall I referred to the specific lineage -- O Sensei -->A-->B-->C--->you. I think a student should listen to what those people have to say. If they say "No sparring!" no sparring. If they have another policy, follow that. If a student is not going to listen to those people, then what is he or she doing there in the first place?As I've said, I've never been told by any aikido teacher that I have had not to spar. I'm not currently training with any aikido teachers, but if I were I certainly wouldn't have any interest in becoming a student of a teacher who did not permit his students to engage in freestyle resistance training. In fact, at this point I'm not really interested in becoming a student of any teacher in any art who will not engage with me in such training himself, and the fact that there are very few such teachers in aikido is probably the main reason why I'm not training with any aikido teacher right now.

DonMagee

08-06-2007, 12:53 PM

As for ego's in sparing, if you spar often enough, you will be unable to continue without losing your ego.

What I mean by that is this. Each week we get new students in my bjj club. Every single class we spar, new students are no exception (except it might be positional sparing such as escape from this mount, or pass this guard). Every single one of them has an ego that gets bruised. The ones that can put that past them stay and become good students. The ones that can't whine, get scared, make excuses, never gain skill and eventually leave us.

It's a great tool for filtering out who is worth training with.

Roman Kremianski

08-06-2007, 02:29 PM

Would have to agree with Don. I don't see how it's possible trying to hang with people a lot more skilled than you without getting a bruised ego, and then eventually very little of an ego at all. People need to stop using the whole "ego" argument as an anti-sparring debate, and maybe start some sparring with people who know more than they do? Just my idea.

CNYMike

08-06-2007, 08:34 PM

Obviously, if you have no experience with sparring, you will not be able to do it right. That's the best argument (apart from technical effectiveness) for regularly training in freestyle resistance training. Only through such regular training do you learn to let go of your attachment to winning and losing. I bet that if you asked Mr. Astle he would tell you the same thing.

I'm sure he would; circumstances that are none of your businesses prevented us from continuing to do that. But I started Jun Fan Gung Fu last year and have sparred more frequently; on occassion I have begun to enjoy it.

However, it is still possible for one's ego and pride to get in the way! In my case, it is because when I sparred in karate back in the '80s, I was more often than not a pucnhing bag with legs. I have the same problem now. It is hard to get past "winning" and "losing" if all you do is "lose" (or think you do).

How many of Morihei Ueshiba's peers in Daito-ryu left to start their own martial art? By your logic, since he was the only one, we should conclude that the Ueshiba was wrong to "disrespect" his teacher and so we should all quit aikido and study Daito-ryu instead.

Or maybe we could do what O Sensei did --- found our own systems. If we assume for the sake of argument that O sensei was disrespectful to his teacher, it would have been even worse if he had continued to promote what he was teaching as Daito Ryu when he was going his own way. But by doing his own thing and giving it its own name, no one could tell him he is doing anything wrong because it is his thinking, no one else's.

Which goes back to the point I was trying to make: While there is considerable wiggle room in Aikido, if you wiggle too far, it's not Aikido. At that point one viable option is to call it something else and make it your own.

As far as I know, Morihei Ueshiba did not have any problems with Tomiki or what he was doing. It was his son Kisshomaru that did not approve of Tomiki's innovations.

This came up in another thread a while ago; Tomiki had to broker a deal with O Sensei to use the name "Aikido." So I wouldn't put O Sensei out of the picture just yet.

As I've said, I've never been told by any aikido teacher that I have had not to spar. I'm not currently training with any aikido teachers, but if I were I certainly wouldn't have any interest in becoming a student of a teacher who did not permit his students to engage in freestyle resistance training. In fact, at this point I'm not really interested in becoming a student of any teacher in any art who will not engage with me in such training himself, and the fact that there are very few such teachers in aikido ....

And I was trying to explain why.

..... is probably the main reason why I'm not training with any aikido teacher right now.

So in other words, you are following exactly the same advice I gave to the original poster! And your problem is, then .... what? :hypno:

CNYMike

08-06-2007, 08:35 PM

CNYMike

08-06-2007, 08:37 PM

..... I don't see how it's possible trying to hang with people a lot more skilled than you without getting a bruised ego, and then eventually very little of an ego at all ....

That would be true whether a system includes sparring or not.

DonMagee

08-06-2007, 09:26 PM

That would be true whether a system includes sparring or not.

Well, I"m not sure sure on that. At least in my case I trained in arts without sparing for a lot longer then I have in arts with sparing. My first instance of sparing I was paired with a smaller kid who was still in high school. I was at least 20 pounds bigger, and just coming off a long stint in krav maga and aikido.

I was thinking, this should be a cake walk, I'm going to tap this kid faster then he can even react. After about 5 chokes later, I was singing a different tune. I went home that night sulking and wondering why nothing I knew actually worked. Luckily I came to the decision that I had to put it all past me and keep training. I see it happen over and over ever class. It usually doesn't happen as fast as it did in my case, but I watch as white belts go from fighting as if their lives depended on it, to exploring and being ok with making a mistake that costs them that tap. My ego was inflated to huge levels after krav maga and aikido. I mean besides my instructor who has 20 years on me and massive knowledge in the arts I'm invincible. And even if there was someone else like him out there, chances are he wouldn't be a problem anyways.

My attitude a few years ago might of gotten me killed. I probably would of jumped into a fight just because I thought I was invincible. Now I realize I'm a skinny computer nerd with no athletic talent at all. I know my limits, and I would avoid a fight at all costs.

Sparing has given me everything I hold dear in my martial arts. Before sparing, I feel everything I did was a waste. After sparing, I feel I can learn what I was ment to learn in my previous arts.

G DiPierro

08-06-2007, 09:33 PM

However, it is still possible for one's ego and pride to get in the way! In my case, it is because when I sparred in karate back in the '80s, I was more often than not a pucnhing bag with legs. I have the same problem now. It is hard to get past "winning" and "losing" if all you do is "lose" (or think you do).I personally prefer non-competitive freestyle resistance training over formally competitive versions. There's several reasons why, but one of them is that the notion of winning and losing is not so specific or well-defined. There is a lot more room for people of varying levels to work together without one necessarily having to lose all of the time.

Which goes back to the point I was trying to make: While there is considerable wiggle room in Aikido, if you wiggle too far, it's not Aikido. At that point one viable option is to call it something else and make it your own.And again my question to you is who has the right to define what is and is not aikido? Is it simply a matter of politics or is it a matter of fidelity to what Morihei Ueshiba was doing or trying to do? Depending on how you answer this question, you could end up with radically different notions of what should be considered aikido. I'm already very close at this point to not calling what I do aikido anymore if I were to start teaching it publicly again, not because I don't think it qualifies as aikido -- I certainly think it does -- but because I wouldn't want it to be confused with the practice that most people think of as "aikido."

This came up in another thread a while ago; Tomiki had to broker a deal with O Sensei to use the name "Aikido." So I wouldn't put O Sensei out of the picture just yet.Do you have the link? I would like to know more about this.

So in other words, you are following exactly the same advice I gave to the original poster! And your problem is, then .... what?The reason I'm not training with any aikido teacher comes down to lack of access more than anything else. There might be a couple of people in the major aikido organizations would could potentially meet my standards, but I cannot practice with them on a regular basis. So instead I work with the best available teachers I can find, and right now none of them happen to be aikido teachers.

My "problem" with your original and subsequent posts is mostly with your explanation for why there is no freestyle resistance training in aikido. I believe that the reason for this began with the historical development of aikido from Daito-ryu and persists today for political reasons and the inherent unwillingness of people within a Japanese-style hierarchy to change, particularly in ways that might threaten the legitimacy of that hierarchy. I don't buy that there are any good pedagogical reasons (or good reasons of any kind, really) for the lack of this kind of training, and further I think its absence has allowed aikido to develop in ways that have led it away from what the founder was doing both physically and philosophically and increasingly towards a practice that is both martially and spiritually deficient.

tarik

08-07-2007, 02:22 AM

But apparently, when you go totally freestyle, your ego kicks in and you try to "win." Even if no one is actually keeping score, you can still try to win.

Yeah, it takes a while to get that out of your system. It's important, IMO.

Sparring in class isn't supposed to be about winning or losing, just examining techniques in a freestyle format. But you have to learn to get your ego out of it. Prearranged training where you are always uke or nage short circuits that, too.

I very much agree with your statement about what 'sparring' is supposed to be about. To me, a very important part of that training is to learn to let go of that ego.

As for the second part, are you saying that pre-arranged training short circuits ego in training? Because that's not my experience. Some of the most combative and ego driven training I've ever experienced in aikido has almost entirely been during prearranged forms rather than randori or sparring.

It seems to me the question then becomes to study how Aikido's principles would work against resistance. Is the person just pushing back against you? Then you have to blend with that energy. Is he trying to counter you? Then counter his counter. Is he just locking down and not moving? Then hit him the face; if he's going to give you a second, use it. :p

Sounds good to me.

I also firmly believe in not being disrespectful to your teachers and your lineage. If O Sensei and everyone between you and him says "don't spar," don't spar. You don't care about that, do whatever you want. But I do.

I care a lot, myself. However, Ueshiba Sensei's aikido is gone, and most of us are interested in learning our own teacher's aikido which is all that's truly available to learn. I know of plenty of teachers who don't say "don't spar".

I agree about the issue of disrespect, but what is it?

It was expressed to me at one time that I was disrespectful for not falling down when a senior (6th dan) instructor waved his hand in front of my face. I disagree.. it would have, in my opinion, been disrespectful to fall down, and in this case I'm not talking about sparring. It happened 3-4 times in a row, and I was honestly wondering when he was going to throw me as we were in front of class and he was instructing.

So then I endured first a blow that required the instructor to check in with me for an injury (there was none as my ukemi was up to it) and then a lecture in front of the entire class about my ukemi for not falling down earlier.

I sincerely expected this instructor to know how to throw me without hurting me and I also expected that I was not supposed to just fall down for no reason I could discern. Was this disrespect, or a miscommunication of expectations and values? (FWIW, I have never gotten on the mat with that instructor again.)

What this really boils down to, in my opinion, is finding and training with partners who have similar expectations, values, whom you can respect, and who want to train in the way you want to train.

Like I said, if you really want to spar, either don't do Aikido or crosstrain in something where you can spar, but don't do Aikdo and whine about it, and leave it the way it is.

Respectfully, getting caught up in whether it's called aikido or not because you don't care for some of the content strikes me as potentially another battle of ego.

Arguing that this is not a part of aikido seems a little silly to me. It's a simple reality that there are forms of aikido that contain 'sparring' and forms that do not. Heck, I know of at least one form of aikido that includes music and dancing.

They're all each aikido to one degree or another. I certainly confess that I harbor opinions as to what is more likely to be viable and true budo, but I think that is perhaps a different issue and not entirely written in stone anyway and after all, not everyone studies aikido as a budo.

Regards,

Roman Kremianski

08-07-2007, 08:14 AM

eck, I know of at least one form of aikido that includes music and dancing.

That's the hardcore one
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9OqMLzVKAJs

jennifer paige smith

08-07-2007, 09:45 AM

[QUOTE=Giancarlo DiPierro;185590]

And since the founder is dead, I don't think he is in any position to comment on what is and is not aikido. However, when he was alive he once remarked that what his son Kisshomaru was teaching was not his aikido, and his son has probably been the strongest influence on the development of post-war aikido, particuarly in the US aikikai-affiliated organizations. So perhaps none of what people in the US are doing today can be said to be the aikido of the founder..[/ QUOTE]

Correct. That is, if they are sparring.

Now what is aikido again?

It can take too long to explain the workings of the universe but O'Sensei tried. Here is a quote from the lectures by O'sensei forum on Aikido Journal:

"Now aikido is the name given to our practice of the Way to attain oneness with the spirit and body of the Universe, and the Way of unification with the light of harmony.

For example, if there is something dirty on earth, insects come and clean it up. Insects, fish, birds and all other animals have their own way of taking care of impurities in this way.

As human beings we must purify ourselves from all sins and impurities and each accomplish our own God-given missions. This is what aikido offers, and it is for this purpose that you (addressing the Byakko Shinko Kai audience) offer “The World Peace Prayer” which Goi Sensei advocates. However, if you pray in words only, it does not work. You must actually live up to the prayer, otherwise it will be of no avail.

(2)
Aikido is the martial art (bu) of truth; it is the work of love.

It is the way to protect all living things of this world, that is, aikido is a compass that gives life to all things.

It is the manifestation of takemusu6 that has given birth to all martial techniques that have so far been created.

The martial arts born therefrom are the law to protect the growth of everything existing in the world in accordance with the law of life and growth of all nature."

Chuck Clark

08-07-2007, 10:13 AM

jennifer paige smith

08-07-2007, 10:36 AM

Everything noted above can be accomplished through the practice of randori (as a form of "sparring") if done appropriately. Saotome, M. once called this form of sparring "aikido kumite"... and then said, "Very good, but very difficult to do."

Everyone must find their own Way and be responsible for it and practice for the sake of the practice.

Good point, Mr. Clark.
They can also be achieved through the integrous practice of any technique; for practices sake. But it is, like I feel you are saying also, within the form of aiki to be found, or 'stolen' , as you say. (I like to think that it was offered and I accepted. But that's the same difference, I suppose.) Not easy,agreed. But easier than a life wasted in illusion. From where I stand.

Jen

CNYMike

08-07-2007, 11:33 AM

Well, I"m not sure sure on that ....

I've worked with senior students in Aikido who don't let me throw them unless I get it just right and give me pointers. So yes, there are PLENTY of people who know the material better than me.

At least in my case I trained in arts without sparing for a lot longer then I have in arts with sparing ....

My sparring experience has been intermittent over the years, too, although I was doing karate (and sparring) for a year and a half before I started Aikido. And when I returned to it, I stayed in other systems where we spar, although as I noted, it's been in Jun Fan where I've been doing the most.

I also never got it in my head that one art or another would make me invincible, and it helps that my first karate sensei kept saying (A) every move has a countermove, (B) you won't win all the time, and (C) there's always someone out there who knows something you don't. I think that's a healthy perspective, although hard to stick to sometimes.

CNYMike

08-07-2007, 11:41 AM

..... getting caught up in whether it's called aikido or not because you don't care for some of the content strikes me as potentially another battle of ego ....

It's not. As I see it, in every martial arts class there are two things going on: Teaching the techniques and passing down the system that contains them. That's where the questions of content become important. The audience for the techniques is there in the room; the audience for the system is the future generations of students who will learn from whomever in that room becomes a teacher someday.

So if there are certain things that make Aikido what it is and certain things that lead you astray, it seems to me that if you cross that line, it's not Aikido anymore. Period. That doesn't mean it's bad and it can't be taught, but it might be more appropriate to give it a new identity.

CNYMike

08-07-2007, 12:06 PM

.... And again my question to you is who has the right to define what is and is not aikido? ....

Well, based on your next quote:

.... My "problem" with your original and subsequent posts is mostly with your explanation for why there is no freestyle resistance training in aikido. I believe that the reason for this began with the historical development of aikido from Daito-ryu and persists today for political reasons and the inherent unwillingness of people within a Japanese-style hierarchy to change, particularly in ways that might threaten the legitimacy of that hierarchy. I don't buy that there are any good pedagogical reasons (or good reasons of any kind, really) for the lack of this kind of training, and further I think its absence has allowed aikido to develop in ways that have led it away from what the founder was doing both physically and philosophically and increasingly towards a practice that is both martially and spiritually deficient.

I guess you do. :p Either way, I'm stupid and don't know nothin'. You win; I'll shut up now.

DonMagee

08-07-2007, 01:39 PM

I've worked with senior students in Aikido who don't let me throw them unless I get it just right and give me pointers. So yes, there are PLENTY of people who know the material better than me.

My sparring experience has been intermittent over the years, too, although I was doing karate (and sparring) for a year and a half before I started Aikido. And when I returned to it, I stayed in other systems where we spar, although as I noted, it's been in Jun Fan where I've been doing the most.

I also never got it in my head that one art or another would make me invincible, and it helps that my first karate sensei kept saying (A) every move has a countermove, (B) you won't win all the time, and (C) there's always someone out there who knows something you don't. I think that's a healthy perspective, although hard to stick to sometimes.

It comes down to personal experience. We are both lucky to find out where we fit in. I find it impossible to get honest training without sparing. Too many egos are involved, people throwing half hearted attacks just so you can't throw them and they can give you advice. Then they let you throw them. People not letting you throw them without making it obvious they are letting you just because they wear black belts. Constant aggravation when you question the principles of a technique to try to understand it only to see the frustration in th eyes of the teacher that takes your question as a challenge to their ability to do martial arts. I'm not saying my aikido teacher is like this, but I have had lots of run ins with teachers like this. Each and every one was against sparing. In fact the biggest ego's I've ever met where against sparing.

I find it's the sparing that brings truth to the training. For example, I've been told "I don't think any bjj guy could take any of my students down". This is a silly statement that reflects ego. The silliest part about this is that if you asked if he would like to have a student spar you or another bjj friend of yours, you would be told without hesitation "I'm sorry we do not believe in sparing." or "We are too deadly and do not want to hurt you". So now we are back to conjecture and theory instead of positive undeniable truth.

For example, I can do armbar drills all day long. My partner knows I'm going for an armbar, he can point out weakness. He can say "Squeeze your knees more" and yank his arm out. Or he can say " break my posture more" and turn away, etc. And I can make that armbar look very nice. In fact it might very well be a great armbar, and I can teach it to others and we can all look great doing this armbar. But we simply do not know if my armbar is any good. We have a good theory, and if any of us has actually used an armbar in real life, then our theory has even more merit. But lets just say 10 generations goes by with nobody testing this armbar. We just pound out 500 reps of the armbar a class, both sides. Are we still sure we passed down the armbar as it was intended? We are driving only on faith, like a religon. Was the founders armbar even a technique, maybe we talk about that, what about setting it up, was it just a principle?

Obviously you have read this argument a thousand times so you know where I'm going. Until I actually armbar someone who is trying to do everything then can to stop me, I don't know if my armbar is good or not. I don't know if I learned my armbar correctly. I'm just hoping I have a perfectionist teacher, and every single one of his teachers was also perfect, and that I learn 100% perfect.

That is not to say that doing 500 armbars a day is not going to make my armbar tighter. But this is only if I also actually use my armbar so I know where the holes are.

Adam Alexander

08-07-2007, 02:20 PM

Some time back, there was this thread titled Proving Yourself.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12052&highlight=proving

I think the following two quotes did a great job citing opposing positions. (Larry Camejo requoted without permission;) )

Hi Jean,

The above is a great point and a major reason why I think many do not understand the direct physical practicality of applied Aikido principle or technique. As per your post above, revelation comes through situations where there is no pretense of cooperation or creation of a false sense of harmony (i.e. one where you must depend on your partner to not resist your movements and by extension have "effective" waza). In sparring from early on in ones Aikido training one learns ones own weaknesses, strengths and that of others and can train to improve on these areas from very early on. It is these people who tend to be able to apply things reflexively when it is required. Focus on kata alone does not build reflexive ability. Takemusu aiki is also impossible if one cannot allow the subconscious to operate and find the right movement for the situation.

Imho I think part of the reason why many in Aikido do not experience the revelations you referred to above is because many do not engage in some sort of constructive, graduated form of training (from no resistance to full resistance) that builds awareness, reflexes, subconscious reaction and automatic mind/body pathways while maintaining technical integrity.

Regarding my own experiences:

Real World: 8 on 1 ambush/mugging attempt. Kotegaeshi on lead attacker made him my shield against his buddies giving me time to improve my position, open my distance between them and regroup. They decided not to pursue the point after realizing that they had inflicted a good bit of injury on their main attacker (who by then also had a sprained wrist) in trying to get at me..

Sparring in other dojos: Have done well in using Aikido waza during Judo and Jujutsu randori for throws especially. In one case the Judoka ended up on his back on the floor looking up at the ceiling and not quite understanding how he got there.

I actually train in Jujutsu also now to cover combat ranges that are not in my Aikido syllabus (e.g. ground work and clinch range) but my first line of defence will always be coming from my Aikido training. It works because our method thankfully allows for a lot of sparring from early on so one learns a few things about dealing with a serious opponent/attacker as well as the mindset / body tactics required to keep oneself in control.

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

Larry,

I like most current styles of Aikido staying away from sparring. What you learn in ten minutes of sparring will keep you busy for a year. I think the ego-gratification that is built into sparring (generally) is very slippery. Before a school knows it, rather than sparring being a tool that only needs to be used once in a great while, you end up putting an emphasis on it in the curriculum (sp?).

I think that would have the same effect as etiquette and chain of command in a dojo being de-emphasized. Behavior gets mushy real quick (atleast I acted like an a**hole in some situations because I was following the example of someone who had little respect for them).

I prefer to stick to the extreme. When someone thinks they're ready, they'll find a test.

On the subject of resisting ukes, when I've been out, I didn't encounter any "real life" resisting ukes.

CNYMike

08-07-2007, 02:38 PM

.... I find it's the sparing that brings truth to the training. For example, I've been told "I don't think any bjj guy could take any of my students down". This is a silly statement that reflects ego ....

Unless it's true. :p And you've probably grappled enough to know that the person who ends up on the bottom is in serious trouble; I've noted that from the reaplys on Spike. Makes me wonder if the reasons so many systems put a premium on stability is because they want to avoid that situation in the first place. But I digress ...

The silliest part about this is that if you asked if he would like to have a student spar you or another bjj friend of yours, you would be told without hesitation "I'm sorry we do not believe in sparing." or "We are too deadly and do not want to hurt you". So now we are back to conjecture and theory instead of positive undeniable truth.

It's not all that silly. Think about it: Let's say someone claims a certain technique can break your neck. You say, "let's spar and test it!" If that person succeeds, you are dead. If it fails (assuming he did everything correctly in the first place), he's emabarrassed.

Embarrassment vs. a human life is no contest -- the life wins. Of course, you can always agree to get it to position, but then you never know if it leads to a break, bringing us back to the question.

So I'm not against sparring and not saying it's bad -- I've jut always had trouble with it -- but safety considerations put limits on that. Unless you don't care .... and then you are dangerous and I'm running for the door. :)

Paul Sanderson-Cimino

08-07-2007, 07:39 PM

Unless it's true.

I'm going to hazard that you haven't grappled with a BJJer before, amirite?

Also: Don, I like the armbar analogy.

Roman Kremianski

08-07-2007, 11:16 PM

Of course, you can always agree to get it to position, but then you never know if it leads to a break, bringing us back to the question.

I'm taking you've never had a guillotine applied on you? You don't need to break someone/s neck or arm to realize you're breaking something. You'd be tapping desperately way before then.

Makes me wonder if the reasons so many systems put a premium on stability is because they want to avoid that situation in the first place.

And yet so little actually bother to train for when it does.

darin

08-08-2007, 01:51 AM

Nice music. Very relaxing...

darin

08-08-2007, 01:53 AM

Sorry was talking about this link

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9OqMLzVKAJs

deepsoup

08-08-2007, 04:22 AM

There was a point towards the end of that video where I really thought they were about to kiss, I was quite disappointed that it didn't happen. :)

DonMagee

08-08-2007, 07:11 AM

Unless it's true. :p And you've probably grappled enough to know that the person who ends up on the bottom is in serious trouble; I've noted that from the reaplys on Spike. Makes me wonder if the reasons so many systems put a premium on stability is because they want to avoid that situation in the first place. But I digress ...

Ahh, but is there anyone out there who is so skilled there is no greater? If there really is an instructor out there so skilled that no bjj guy on the planet can take him down, I'd love to be his uchi deshi, hell, I'd be his slave. The statement I made is only a statement of ego. Anyone who has ever done any sparing knows there is always someone out there who can kick your butt. I asked a bunch of guys I trained with if they thought they could be any aikidoka they might encounter. These guys give no respect to anything not sport martial arts, yet they still all replied that there had to be a few that could do it for real and beat them. Just on statistics alone.

It's not all that silly. Think about it: Let's say someone claims a certain technique can break your neck. You say, "let's spar and test it!" If that person succeeds, you are dead. If it fails (assuming he did everything correctly in the first place), he's emabarrassed.

Embarrassment vs. a human life is no contest -- the life wins. Of course, you can always agree to get it to position, but then you never know if it leads to a break, bringing us back to the question.

So I'm not against sparring and not saying it's bad -- I've jut always had trouble with it -- but safety considerations put limits on that. Unless you don't care .... and then you are dangerous and I'm running for the door. :)

I agree, there has to be limits, but the reality is those limits are far less then what most non-sparing believers will lead you to believe. A good example is the knee break kick. Everyone knows by now that breaking the knee with a kick is actually a very hard thing to do. It requires expert timing, and proper position on the attacker, otherwise the kick simply moves their leg and hurts. Yet I can't count the number of times this move is listed as a way a non-sport martial artist with no sparing would be a MMA fighter. The silliest part is that would restrict this from the ring. If it was that dangerous there would indeed be a rule. Another big one I hear is finger breaks. We have seen finger, hand, and even ankle breaks in MMA competition. It almost never ends the fight. The only reason it is illegal is because of the recovery time required to get back to training after you break a few fingers. Fingers suck to break. Just imagine how effective it's going to be against a guy who actually wants to kill you vs a guy who just wants to win a sporting event.

The real dangerous techniques don't need to be proven, logic tells us an eye gouge puts out an eye, repeated blows to the back of the skull will kill you, etc. However, most deadly techniques fall into four categories.

1) Techniques that we think might work, but have no constant proof and in my opinion probably are not a real threat. (My reverse punch to the chest will stop your heart.)
2) Techniques we know work, but can test your ability to get into position. We all know dropping elbows on the back of the head/spine will kill you. No need to test it, but do you have the knowledge and skills to take a person's back?
3) Techniques that we know will work and have safe equivalents. If I can't punch you in the face from this range, I probably can't eye gouge you from it either.
4) Techniques we know will work, but the context they are used in is in question. For example, I can knee you in the groin to pass your guard (my groin would be impossible to knee, only my butt would be exposed) or eye gouge from the bottom of the mount while getting punches rained on my face. These are testable with a little creative thinking. I'd be willing to put on a cup and put you in my guard and see if you can knee my groin. I'd be willing to put on some goggles and rain punches on your head and see if you can touch my eyes before you can't take the blows any longer.

I'm glad you don't think sparing is bad. I'm not trying to convince you, I'm just using your posts as a spring board to get my point across to others who might not consider sparing a valid choice for training.

G DiPierro

08-08-2007, 08:29 AM

It's not all that silly. Think about it: Let's say someone claims a certain technique can break your neck. You say, "let's spar and test it!" If that person succeeds, you are dead. If it fails (assuming he did everything correctly in the first place), he's emabarrassed.In aikido many throwing techniques could potentially be used to break someone's neck. They would involve getting the uke upside down and then dropping or throwing him onto his head. For obvious reasons, they are not practiced or normally even taught this way .

In many cases, if you can control someone enough to get him into a position to break his neck, you can control him enough to throw him instead, however this is not universally true. I was rolling with a local BJJ instructor a while back and he tried to apply a flying armbar. Although he had decent control of the arm, while he was upside down trying to submit me, I lifted him several inches off of the ground. Of course I did not drop him, but when we discussed what happened afterwards he did not seem to realize the danger he would have been in had it been a real fight, and I had to explain to him that I had been in a very strong position from which to pile-drive him on his neck.

Ultimately resistance training is just a tool that you use to explore various aspects of a real conflict that you cannot otherwise explore (except in a real fight, of course, and that's not where you want to learn these things if it is possible to learn them beforehand). It has limitations like other forms of training, and if you understand and respect these limitations it can be one of the most fruitful forms of training you can do, and that is why so many martial arts have this training.

Aikido typically does not, and I have not yet seen, nor do I believe there are, any valid arguments for why this is the case other than tradition and politics. Most of the arguments boil down to some variation of how resistance training can be misused or is limited. These problems exist for all types of training, including solo and paired kata training, but usually people who practice these exclusively don't care to examine the problems and limitations of those training methodologies, many of which can be resolved with the incorporation of resistance training.

Although the quality of your training and instruction is ultimately more important than the format, the mistake many people in aikido make is to assume that their training and instruction must be high quality because their teacher is high-ranked or because he is always able to throw his students. In reality, without testing what you do in some kind of a freestyle resistance setting, it is very difficult to know for sure how you good you are. Morihei Ueshiba knew this, and freely accepted open-format challenges from his students and other interested parties. How many aikido teachers today are willing to do that? How many will demonstrate that they can throw someone who is not giving them a typically over-committed aikido attack but who is actively trying to resist and counter?

In other words, how many aikido teachers can demonstrate that they can do what they claim to be teaching to someone who is trying to do the same thing to them? That is the minimum standard of performance that I now expect from any potential teacher in any art, and most teachers at even relatively low experience levels in arts like judo, BJJ, or kendo, to name a few of many, have no trouble meeting it. Yet only a few people at any level in aikido are willing or able to do this, and that is something I find very troubling for the future development of the art.

Aikibu

08-08-2007, 10:08 AM

Although the quality of your training and instruction is ultimately more important than the format, the mistake many people in aikido make is to assume that their training and instruction must be high quality because their teacher is high-ranked or because he is always able to throw his students. In reality, without testing what you do in some kind of a freestyle resistance setting, it is very difficult to know for sure how you good you are. Morihei Ueshiba knew this, and freely accepted open-format challenges from his students and other interested parties. How many aikido teachers today are willing to do that? How many will demonstrate that they can throw someone who is not giving them a typically over-committed aikido attack but who is actively trying to resist and counter?

In other words, how many aikido teachers can demonstrate that they can do what they claim to be teaching to someone who is trying to do the same thing to them? That is the minimum standard of performance that I now expect from any potential teacher in any art, and most teachers at even relatively low experience levels in arts like judo, BJJ, or kendo, to name a few of many, have no trouble meeting it. Yet only a few people at any level in aikido are willing or able to do this, and that is something I fi