Ueshiba on Youtube

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[CarlRylander]

Everyone should have a look at these vidclips, if they haven't seen them before.

Ueshiba is good, very fast for a man of seventy-plus. You can tell by the way he is moving, he knows his trade.

Thing is, someone has posted some very insulting comments about him on some of the clips. You can tell that what they really object to is the peaceful aspect of Aikido.

I wonder what he would have said. I think it is just as much of a test in Aikido to see if you can take this sort of insult, as much as sparring!!

[Nafis Zahir]

Everyone should have a look at these vidclips, if they haven't seen them before.

Ueshiba is good, very fast for a man of seventy-plus. You can tell by the way he is moving, he knows his trade.

Thing is, someone has posted some very insulting comments about him on some of the clips. You can tell that what they really object to is the peaceful aspect of Aikido.

I wonder what he would have said. I think it is just as much of a test in Aikido to see if you can take this sort of insult, as much as sparring!!

Please post the links.

[Paul Sanderson-Cimino]

Thing is, someone has posted some very insulting comments about him on some of the clips. You can tell that what they really object to is the peaceful aspect of Aikido.

I wonder what he would have said. I think it is just as much of a test in Aikido to see if you can take this sort of insult, as much as sparring!!

They watched a video of an old guy doing all sorts of strange looking things that cause the "attackers" to fly into the air. They then say, "Hm, that looks fake." Then you say, "What they really object to is the peaceful aspect of Aikido." Sorry, but what? I consider those videos of Ueshiba-sensei to look very strange, despite trying my best to figure out what he's doing. There are several points where his uke seem to be doing the aikibunny thing. Was it just that he was so good it looked fake? Based on historical evidence, I think that's quite likely.

But you shouldn't be upset with people for balking at the videos. You can criticize them for profanity and vulgarity if you like, but YouTube is not exactly a polished forum. (To be perfectly honest, 70% of the comments on that site are appallingly dumb. It's a frightening look into what you might hear if you could listen to what the average person was thinking while watching a given show.)

So while snarky adolescent comments reflect badly on their authors, I don't see any grounds for attacking their skepticism itself -- they've been presented with something outlandish, and they say as much. Unless they have some evidence-backed reason to believe what they see, they'd be foolish to believe it.

[CarlRylander]

First of all, let me tell you that I don't practice Aikido yet. I'm still thinking about it.

There are about ten videos at the moment on Youtube google 'Youtube' and then internal search 'Ueshiba Aikido'. You'll find it.

Most of the videos look a bit choreographed, as do most vidclips of Aikido. But there's one that doesn't. I can't remember which one it was, but Ueshiba is shown holding someone on the floor with one hand. On that one and on the others, you can just see that he's a bit more co-ordinated than the average black belt.

My friend, who is a TKWD black belt, has seen a video of someone running at a settee, lifting it and throwing it without grasping. He told me once that Ueshiba took on six marines and beat them, at seventy. He believes all that Ki stuff and so do I. I've done it, and I'm not even a practitioner. Once, when I was a student, I threw a blunt spoon at a fire door and made it stick in, in front of six witnesses, who were astounded. I subscribe to the 'surge of adrenalin' theory about Ki.

The insulting comments and you'll have to search to find them, called Aikidoists 'Japophiles'. They said O Sensei was a senile old fool who was running a cult. They're quite testing, though there are some good posts. Some people say they have used it in real life, some say it's a bit choreographed. They're a lot like post on this site.

I do hope that Aikido doesn't become a 'dance-like metaphor for resolving conflicts'. I don't think that's what O Sensei would have wanted.

[Roman Kremianski]

I've seen a video of O-sensei doing a demonstration with his uke on top of a building with a group of Americans watching. He threw the uke around with shihonage perfectly then invited one of the Americans to grab his wrist. The guy awkwardly stepped forward and grabbed his wrist. O-sensei performed a shihoage on him and the poor confused looking guy just rolled out of it!

Honestly, I don't think we'll ever know what O-Sensei was up to in his late age.

[CarlRylander]

It's not just Aikido that concerns itself with Ki, you know!!

As I said, my TKWD black belt friend believes in it too.

There was a programme on British cable last year where a karate black belt applied a force field to someone's back. He then moved backward behind him where he could not see him and pushed the air. The man stumbled forward.

I can't explain it, but I believe it.

I don't think O Sensei was getting senile in his old age. The west has yet to catch up with the East in some things.

[Basia Halliop]

It's a shame it's not possible to see videos of him when he was younger or even middle aged. The videos of him as an elderly man show amazing fitness, agility, and coordination for his age (I mean, let's mentally picture him 'sparring' against almost any opponent his own age :) I get kind of an amusing picture of him practically turning cartwheels as another old man shuffles slowly up to him and tries to poke him with his cane), yet I simply can't imagine anyone genuinely trying to attack a man of his age, let alone a highly respected one in Japan, even if they were told to, and I doubt we're likely to ever see a video of him that doesn't look like the ukes are being nice, because they'd practically have to be psychopaths not to be (plus it wouldn't actually surprise me to find that he was kind of a show off and enjoyed the flattery in his old age).

FWIW, he does give the impression sometimes that he might enjoy a bit of cultishness sometimes... but I wouldn't be surprised if his senior students knew what they were doing; things I remember reading from them sounded like they had a lot less 'reverence' and a lot more genuine respect.

[Roman Kremianski]

There was a programme on British cable last year where a karate black belt applied a force field to someone's back. He then moved backward behind him where he could not see him and pushed the air. The man stumbled forward.

I can't explain it, but I believe it.

You can't be serious...?

[Paul Sanderson-Cimino]

You can't be serious...?

I wasn't going to say anything. But yes. I think he is. This is deeply unfortunate.

It's a shame it's not possible to see videos of him when he was younger or even middle aged. The videos of him as an elderly man show amazing fitness, agility, and coordination for his age (I mean, let's mentally picture him 'sparring' against almost any opponent his own age :) I get kind of an amusing picture of him practically turning cartwheels as another old man shuffles slowly up to him and tries to poke him with his cane),

HA! Yes, I would give him good odds against the average 70-year-old...

Although what you ask for is not that hard to find.

http://aikido.magnify.net/item/S5SHCS8VN29SMYJP

Him at 52 -- older, sure, but by no means elderly. After all, here's a 72 year old who punched a (27-year old ... hey, 72-27? Funny...) robber silly:
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20070627/D8Q0TBCO0.html

yet I simply can't imagine anyone genuinely trying to attack a man of his age, let alone a highly respected one in Japan, even if they were told to, and I doubt we're likely to ever see a video of him that doesn't look like the ukes are being nice, because they'd practically have to be psychopaths not to be (plus it wouldn't actually surprise me to find that he was kind of a show off and enjoyed the flattery in his old age).

This makes a lot of sense. Terry Dobson expressed a similar sentiment. (I think he then said that he decided to hell with it and actually rushed him, only to get knocked senseless.)

[ross_l]

Ueshiba-sensei said it best in the Art of Peace:

"As soon as you concern yourself with the "good" and "bad" of your fellows, you create an opening in your heart for maliciousness to enter. Testing, competing with, and criticizing others weaken and defeat you."

He probably wouldn't care what people said about him on Youtube.

[Roman Kremianski]

The west has yet to catch up with the East in some things.

Like the magical ability to toss people with your mind? Or are we talking about new tech from Sony?

[Paul Sanderson-Cimino]

Like the magical ability to toss people with your mind? Or are we talking about new tech from Sony?

Nice one.

It's Yellow Bamboo time! This is an example of a martial art specializing in these sophisticated energetic practices.

Regular training ("I can't explain it, but I believe it.")
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rm5WtE-2dPg

vs. a haughty grappler challenger (with NO study of ki...the poor fool!)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_1ykNZ7rAcw

[Roman Kremianski]

You're right. What a complete idiot that grappler was!!! Going out there without even the basics of ki blasting. Like a rabbit to the wolves.

Dunno where these BJJ morons come from!

[Basia Halliop]

Hmmm... actually I think I've seen the 'younger' ones, but forgot when it was (somehow I thought he was also older in that one).

[CarlRylander]

You can't be serious...?

I'm perfectly serious. I saw it with my own eyes. It was on British cable TV. A man who was not an Aikidoist did it. My aunty has studied yoga and she has heard about it.

If you want another fact, the Russians did investigations on such things and they have film of someone lifting matches by just passing their hands over them.

There are more things in heaven and earth then are dreamt in with your philosophy, Roman!!

I believe that Usheiba was still dangerous at seventy. As I said, my TKWD friend told me he took on six marines. Ninety nine percent of people at that age aren't, but if you are of above average reflexes and strength, you still could be. My Great Grandfather, who was a barefist boxer in his youth, was working as a doorman till he was sixty eight. He could lift half a hundred weight with one arm at that age. That cable program had seventy year old black belts on it.

It's not just Aikido that has people doing fantastic things, you know!
A lot of the arts do. Imagine if you trained for forty or fifty years at something, The things you could do! I'm not saying that I could, but I'm prepared to believe others can

[Paul Sanderson-Cimino]

I'm perfectly serious. I saw it with my own eyes. It was on British cable TV. A man who was not an Aikidoist did it. My aunty has studied yoga and she has heard about it.

If you want another fact, the Russians did investigations on such things and they have film of someone lifting matches by just passing their hands over them.

There are more things in heaven and earth then are dreamt in with your philosophy, Roman!!

I believe that Usheiba was still dangerous at seventy. As I said, my TKWD friend told me he took on six marines. Ninety nine percent of people at that age aren't, but if you are of above average reflexes and strength, you still could be. My Great Grandfather, who was a barefist boxer in his youth, was working as a doorman till he was sixty eight. He could lift half a hundred weight with one arm at that age. That cable program had seventy year old black belts on it.

It's not just Aikido that has people doing fantastic things, you know!
A lot of the arts do. Imagine if you trained for forty or fifty years at something, The things you could do! I'm not saying that I could, but I'm prepared to believe others can

There certainly are a lot of surprising truths out there waiting to be discovered. However, just about everything you describe up there makes me highly skeptical. It does not conform with the current state of knowledge about such things, and extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. So far, I'm not seeing even "ordinary" evidence; I'm seeing several levels of credibility below that (e.g. unsourced anecdotes.)

If I might ask, how old are you?

[Jonshez]

There was a programme on British cable last year where a karate black belt applied a force field to someone's back. He then moved backward behind him where he could not see him and pushed the air. The man stumbled forward.

I can't explain it, but I believe it.
.

I think this was the show Carl is referring to although I can't find a clip showing what he describes, I saw it too. I enjoyed the show, some really interesting stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvRJEWHzGTo
I have to say I am and was very skeptical. The video with the Yellow bamboo chap getting tipped by the bloke on the beach sums it up for me I'm afraid. Lot's and lots of frauds and gullible people wanting to believe, making any real skill or power or energy is obscured.

What's really interesting is watching the Qi Gong group after the Wing Tsun chap has explained a lot of the tricks. Is it me, or is the 'eyeball' trick really using the bony inside ridge of the eye socket rather than his actual eye? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co6G-vyAlII

Jon

[Roman Kremianski]

I'm perfectly serious. I saw it with my own eyes. It was on British cable TV. A man who was not an Aikidoist did it. My aunty has studied yoga and she has heard about it.

If you want another fact, the Russians did investigations on such things and they have film of someone lifting matches by just passing their hands over them.

There are more things in heaven and earth then are dreamt in with your philosophy, Roman!!

I believe that Usheiba was still dangerous at seventy. As I said, my TKWD friend told me he took on six marines. Ninety nine percent of people at that age aren't, but if you are of above average reflexes and strength, you still could be. My Great Grandfather, who was a barefist boxer in his youth, was working as a doorman till he was sixty eight. He could lift half a hundred weight with one arm at that age. That cable program had seventy year old black belts on it.

It's not just Aikido that has people doing fantastic things, you know!
A lot of the arts do. Imagine if you trained for forty or fifty years at something, The things you could do! I'm not saying that I could, but I'm prepared to believe others can

Alright...I'm lost and confused now. Are we dwelling into fantasy and delusion or are we still on humour and sarcasm?

[CarlRylander]

In reply to Roman, I'm forty.

My TKWD friend, who is a black belt and quite hard-headed, told me about the settee incident, which has been filmed. I've never seen the Russian film, but I have seen the force field incident.In addition, I've heard of people who can, blindfolded, sense what colour is on a printed page. There are also people and animals who can sense people coming up behind them. I've seen a dog do it. My great uncle could.

It isn't cynicism to not believe in things you have seen with your own eyes. Maybe you haven't seen the footage, Roman. If you did, but you couldn't explain, perhaps you should just settle with the statement ' It's unexplainable', rather than talk about fantasy. Perhaps there are phenonema that are unexplainable by our present science.

Perhaps it can all be explained by hyper-sensitivity, hypnotism, auto-suggestion and application of strength, I don't know, but I'm willing to accept that our science isn't the pinnacle of all knowlege.
Some of the things we can do would be seen as magic hundreds of years ago.

I've noticed there are a lot of people on this site who are a bit sceptical about Aikido. Why are they studying it, then? The higher reaches of all martial arts have theses elements. It doesn't matter where you go.

[CarlRylander]

In addition, Roman:

'Extraordinary claims require extrordinary evidence.'

From what I can work out, you've at least seen some of the footage of Ueshiba. You've seen the evidence, haven't you?

[CarlRylander]

I'm sorry Roman, it was Paul who said that.

[aikilouis]

On a related note, here's a demo by famous British mentalist Derren Brown of no-touch punch : http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=759170

The mental component of aikido is extremely important : perception of intent and openings, attracting and guiding the other's attention, among other elements. All of this is part of martial arts strategy and training, and aikido probably as much as any other. I read somewhere (sorry, I don't have the reference around) that O Sensei was very interested in sleight-of-hand tricks, and I relate it to the element of deception involved in both activities. A magician's main asset is his ability to manipulate their spectators and lead their attention away from where it really matters. To achieve this he must be in a state of total control of the spectator's perceptions and reactions, and keep his own mind centered. Does it sound familiar ?

[CarlRylander]

My Great Uncle said that he's seen my Grandad drop someone with a 'One inch punch', a la Bruce Lee. My Great Uncle thought he'd killed him.

Actually, if you could hypnotise someone and just make them go away, you wouldn't have to fight them. It would be the ultimate in Aikido!!

I know someone who has an almost hypnotic stare. I had a dispute with him once. It was absolutely terrifying. It took all my willpower not to turn away.

[CarlRylander]

That Derren Brown clip with the candle is 'inexplicable'.

Unless it's a camera trick.

I have read about the fields that surround a body and every living thing. Have you heard of Kirlian photography?Perhaps some people can project them. That's how Ueshiba said he could sense people behind him. He said that the field from electric trams disturbed him.

I don't know. Perhaps Derren is flicking his fingers faster than the camera can see.

[Aristeia]

For me when it comes to this "unexplainable" stuff Derren Brown and James Randi the the debate enders. Brown does all sorts of things that people claim as being supernatural powers but admits that it's trickery. If he claimed special powers, based on what he can do plenty would beleive him. If he can fake it, you have to accept that others can and likely are. It's more likely someone is doing a Derren Brown than usurping the laws of physics.

And of course Randi has a million dollars for anyone that can demonstrate "psychic powers" under test conditions. So if you know guys that can "see" colours blindfolded - why don't they go collect a million bucks?

[Roman Kremianski]

In reply to Roman, I'm forty.

Which is why I feel embarrassed even having to reply to some of the stuff you posted bud!!

I think that me and you live in totally different worlds Carl. You live in a world of stories and self proclaimed legends, while I just reside in the physical.

If you did, but you couldn't explain, perhaps you should just settle with the statement ' It's unexplainable',

I have never done it. I do Aikido on a regular basis, then afterwards I spar or grapple with friends, and from what I can tell you no magic or ki blasting or dog-sense detection can help you.

Find me whatever dude you can who claims to be able to this stuff. I'll follow Michael Fook's example. Like many before me (including the Yellow Bamboo video Paul posted) I'd be graciously willing to strap on a pair of gloves, get a friend with a camcorder, and then go at him for a few minutes. If I feel something truly extraordinary, like being pushed back by an invisible force field or made paralyzed by the guy's stare, then I would humbly become his/her student. Kinda like how things were done back in the day.

I've noticed there are a lot of people on this site who are a bit sceptical about Aikido. Why are they studying it, then?

Because the Aikido I study and the people I train with are the exact opposite of all the silliness you're writing! There's just no magic or supernatural powers mate.

(Of course you can get alcohol involved and think that something's going down though...but that's another topic. Ehehe.)

[CarlRylander]

All I can say is Roman, there must be a lot of 'silly' people in the world, millions of Asians, quite a few westerners, many of whom could tie you in knots quite easily, who all believe in Chi, or Ki.

You wouldn't believe it, even if you saw it with your own eyes, demonstrated by one hundred people on one hundred opponents. As I said before lots of the martial arts deal with this stuff at the highest levels.

You've got to be pragmatic. You may think it's the fairies at the bottom of the garden who are helping you do this. If you do, and it works, what harm is it doing?

I'm prepared to believe that some people can sense changes in electromagnetic fields. Homing pigeons can do it. The brain has a weak electromagnetic field.Perhaps some highly sensitive people can sense changes in it and sense people behind them.Perhaps they just have very good hearing. Perhaps the hairs on their skin can detect small movements in air currents.

As I said some of these things have been filmed.

[CarlRylander]

Ever wondered why the Asian martial arts were kept secret for so long and not revealed to Westerners????

[CarlRylander]

As to liveing in the real world, I would say that my TKWD friend, who I have sparred with, believes in all this.

I've given some examples of things that I have seen myself, including my relatives, who were very 'real world' people, believe me!!

[CarlRylander]

'Then I would humbly become his/her student'

Unlikely.

More likely that you would destroy the evidence.

[Roman Kremianski]

many of whom could tie you in knots quite easily, who all believe in Chi, or Ki.

Obviously there are enough people out there who can "tie me in knots". I'm a thin guy. Question is, will they do it using muscle strength or chi/ki? I wouldn't be too impressed if some 300lb chiblaster showed up claiming to kill me with his mind, then just end up beating me to a pulp with good 'ol ground and pound.

Ever wondered why the Asian martial arts were kept secret for so long and not revealed to Westerners????

Right. Can't let them white folk get a hold of any Eastern magical powers...

'Then I would humbly become his/her student'

Unlikely.

More likely that you would destroy the evidence.

I don't get this bit. I would destroy what evidence? The fact that I just got thrown across the room into a wall without being touched, in front of 2 cameras and a crowd of people? No, I would be at the guy's feet asking him how he did that.

Why don't you just put the aikijoint down for a moment and admit no one is going to show up anywhere and cast a forcefield.

In the meantime, I'll be training if you need me.

[Paul Sanderson-Cimino]

You wouldn't believe it, even if you saw it with your own eyes, demonstrated by one hundred people on one hundred opponents.

Wow. Making unsupported claims is really a way of life for you, isn't it? You haven't shown Roman one shred of evidence beyond your unsubstantiated, uncited stories...and then you claim that if you WERE to provide him with an enormous body of solid evidence, he would willfully disbelieve all of it!

You've got to be pragmatic.
The irony. THE IRONY.

I'm prepared to believe that some people can sense changes in electromagnetic fields. Homing pigeons can do it. The brain has a weak electromagnetic field.Perhaps some highly sensitive people can sense changes in it and sense people behind them.Perhaps they just have very good hearing. Perhaps the hairs on their skin can detect small movements in air currents.
Okay, good. You're setting up reasons why such abilities might be possible. That's well and good. The next step in the scientific process is to choose a specific hypothesis -- e.g., "So and so can distinguish a curtain with nobody behind it from a curtain with someone behind it" and then test it.

'Then I would humbly become his/her student'

Unlikely.

More likely that you would destroy the evidence.

Comedy points to you! I'm imagining Roman being flung across the room by chi blasters...then, in a fit of rage, killing everyone in the school and burning it to the ground. Only...surely they'd be able to stop him with their ki powers?

Believing that nobody knows about these things because skeptics actively destroy evidence as part of a grand conspiracy -- despite all the immense incentives to share this sort of information with the world -- puts you several notches up on the crazy-o-meter. "I can't use my ki powers! Last night, secret Western government MMAers snuck into my room and installed devices in my teeth that disrupt my energy field! They wanted to make sure I couldn't pass the test today . BUT YOU KNEW THAT ALL ALONG, DIDN'T YOU?!" Come on.

Enough of this. Your arguments are so unhinged that you're currently functioning as a straw man. If this is by design, then you, sir, are a troll. If this is by accident, then you are simply an idiot.

So maybe I should stop, as one A) shouldn't feed trolls and B) shouldn't mock the mentally impaired.

Then again, you're kind of a funny and entertaining troll (or idiot).

[CarlRylander]

Paul, Roman:

Roman started of by saying that he didn't believe that a sixty year old couldn't be dangerous, or take on a youngster. I have personal experience from relatives that disputes this, though I have no video proof. There are videos of Ueshiba and others on the net. These constitute evidence. Apart from that, just about everyone who has seen the Karate kid films, or who has any knowledge of Eastern Martial arts, knows that there are experts in the martial arts who have white hair and who must be at least fifty plus.

Roman doesn't even believe in hypnotism! I can pick up the phone book and ring at least five practitioners within an hour.

I have seen a dog that could sense a hand coming up behind him. I have met two people who were virtually 'unjumpable' I have no video proof of this.

There is the Derren Brown video link that others have posted. There is the'Mind, body and Kick ass moves' link too. These are evidence.

As I said, you have to be pragmatic. If you believe that it's the fairies at the bottom of the garden that are helping you do this, or a giant, invisible white rabbit called Harvey. it doesn't really matter, if you can do it.

I can understand your scepticism about Ki. I can believe that there are fields around the human body that can be detectably disturbed, but how these fairly weak fields could throw a human, I don't know. But just because I can't do something, doesn't mean no-one else can.

[CarlRylander]

In addition, Paul, I would say that I thought all this was common knowledge. I mean, the bit about fantasic things in martial arts. I thought everybody knew about them, especially martial arts people.
The fact that there are martial arts people who don't believe in even the least fantastic astounds me. I thought you all did. I thought that's what you aspired to. My TKWD friend does, and he's quite hardheaded.

As to providing proof, look at the title of this thread. It's called 'Ueshiba on Youtube'.

We live in increasingly materialistic times. All this stuff might die out.

[Roman Kremianski]

We live in increasingly materialistic times. All this stuff might die out.

Completely agree with you. Thank god reality (and the internet) is taking over. Now we can actually rely on real evidence and videos rather then ancient scrolls left behind by monks.

Sorry, but this all just keeps leading back to the same argument: Find me people that can do this. Your frantic posting has severely changed my opinion on your perception of reality. Why do you keep raving about dogs sensing things and hypnotism and what not? Christ. My cat can sense when I am about to touch it. Many animals can too. My cat also happens to have fucking whiskers!! None of this has anything to do with fighting ability. And what are you on about with hypnotism? There is no one out there who can hypnotize an attacker. Because it's never been done. I don't care what some old dude in a beard tells you. Being a hot chick and taking your top off in the middle of the match doesn't count either.

Again, going in one big circle. The name I'm using is my full real name. I train here in TO in Aikido and MMA. If any people you find with paranormal abilities happen to be stopping by our fair city, please forward them my email and we might graciously work out a time for a small throwdown or sparring session.

-Ro

:)

[CarlRylander]

Roman, you ignore the fact that I, and others, have posted evidence on this site. If you want to spar with someone who can convince you, go to Japan. There are dozens there.

No-one can hypnotise or stare down an attacker? Ask any parent that's been challenged by a teenager! Probably a bigger one, too!

It's all common knowledge about this stuff. If you don't want to believe it, don't.

[Paul Sanderson-Cimino]

I hope someday Carl takes Roman up on his offer. We can post a video to YouTube showing him standing in keikogi in the middle of a mat room trying to sneak up on a dog.

[Roman Kremianski]

Roman, you ignore the fact that I, and others, have posted evidence on this site.

For god's sake, where?

If you want to spar with someone who can convince you, go to Japan. There are dozens there.

Names and credentials please. See, I can be a difficult person too.

No-one can hypnotise or stare down an attacker? Ask any parent that's been challenged by a teenager! Probably a bigger one, too!

We're going so off track here it's just silly now. A parent staring down their whiny kid is NOT hypnosis. Go into any NHB competition for your weight division and see how many people you can hypnotize before you get hit in the head.

Every time I bring up sparring and fighting skills, you bring up dogs and domestic disputes. Don't you have anything real?

I'm still solid on my offer. And no I'm not traveling to Japan. Though I don't know if it's relevant or not, but I've mentioned on another thread that I'm 5"10, 130lbs. If that changes anything.

[CarlRylander]

Proof? Evidence?

What is this thread called? 'Ueshiba on Youtube'. The site itself contains evidence. There's a link to the Derren Brown site, earlier on, if you look. There's a link to the'Mind, body and kick-ass moves' site, with the forcefield:

http://aikido.magnify.net/item/S5SHCS8VN29SMYJP

http://apnews.excite.com/article/200...D8Q0TBCO0.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvRJEWHzGTo

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...videoid=759170

So your cat has whiskers on the back of it's head, Eh? Must be an unusual cat.

The internet is like everything else, I suppose. It caters to the lowest common denominator. Most people can't leap six feet into the air,take on multiple oppponents,beat up someone bigger than themselves, or pin them with one finger, so they think no-one else can. I've seen the pattern here on other forums. Threatening is usually the last resort. Look up some of the top black belts in Aikido. I don't do Aikido, so I don't know. I know that the present O Sensei is Morita Ueshiba. Perhaps he can throw people without touching them, I don't know. I'm sure that there is someone in Japan who can. Look up Chris Crudelli, who did the forcefield in 'Mind...' I'm sure he can afford the plane fair to Canada.

And, while you're at it, look up 'Poltergeist' on Wikipedia.

As to what Paul said about sensing who is behind a curtain, I think that the field might be blocked by it.

As I've said I've done soemthing fantastic. I made a blunt spoon stick in a door. Was it Ki? Did I just tense all my muscles up in one go? Was it an invisible friend?

Maybe this will all be explained by science in another fifty years.

This has astounded me, in some ways. Aikido is the one art that deals with Ki in a big way. It's part of it's name. It's all about small people taking on big people. It's about beating people up with your little finger!

I would say, Roman, that you have been very considerate and polite though, relatively. That says something for Aikido.

[Basia Halliop]

I've noticed there are a lot of people on this site who are a bit sceptical about Aikido. Why are they studying it, then? The higher reaches of all martial arts have theses elements. It doesn't matter where you go.

I think one basic disagreement here is that there are probably even more martial artists who will tell you something like:

"The lowest reaches of all martial arts have these elements, unfortunately, although we can try not to sink so low ourselves."

In a way I suppose it's just a matter of what you are looking for, what you personally believe or respect, etc. But as you have said, you have never done Aikido (any of the 'versions') yourself yet. If you do decide to, don't come to our dojo; you'll be sadly disappointed :).

...or actually to any of the senseis I've personally seen/met/taken a class with -- if you look hard enough you can probably find someone who's doing what you want, though, although I have yet to meet them myself (very thankfully, to be honest, but that's me)...

[CarlRylander]

I suppose it is a bit presumptous of me to go on about this when I don't practice Aikido.

All I can say is, I have a TKWD friend who believes in all that Ki stuff. He told me about the settee incident. A lot of what I've said is in John Stevens 'The Art of Peace' - a biography of Ueshiba.

Chris Crudelli did do the forcefield bit. I think you would have to go to Japan, once you had a few grades above black belt, to find out about this. I think Stephen Segal did this.

I admit it's fantastic. But fantastic things do happen.It's not mundane. It may have a simple scientific explanation, like hypnotism or EM fieds.

[Aristeia]

I suppose it is a bit presumptous of me to go on about this when I don't practice Aikido..Bingo! You're coming across as someone that's seen one to many movies. Hell you even quoted karate kid as a source! You keep quoting the opinions of you're fried who does TKD as if that means something - TKD does not necessarily give anyone any special insight.

But here's the most hilarious thing. You have on numerous occasions cited the Derren Brown video as evidence.

Let me say this for you slowly. Derren Brown states *outright* that nothing he does is due to mystical or unusal powers. It's all trickery - magicians tricks, NLP tools, suggestion and subliminal messaging. He will state upfront he uses techniques that so called "psychics" use to *fool* the public. He is not evidence of the point you are trying to make - he is the counter example! He fakes it. He admit he fakes it. His whole point is "hey I can fake this stuff so anytime you see someone claiming they have genuine supernatural abilities realise they are faking just like me".

Unbeleivable.

And the dog example? Are you simple? Dogs perrceive mainly via their sense of *smell*. Which is omnidirectional. Of course they sense someone coming up behind them - they smell them. The fact that you think this is evidence of anything is - stunning.

You're looking for the fairy tail. You're looking for the movie magic, for that thing that will make life magical and not so mundane. You believe not because of evidence, but because you would like it to be true. Aikido does not have what you are looking for. It is a fantastic martial art with much to offer the serious student. But it will not turn you into a wizard. You're surprised that this isn't "common knowledge"? Don't be. No serious martial artist will seriously buy into the mythology you're talking about. A bunch of charlatans looking to take your money may do. Aikdo does not have what you're looking for. Go investigate George Dillman and his style - they'll be right down your alley.

[CarlRylander]

I watch too many movies?

What about the John Stevens book? What about the Wikipedia reference? What about my TKWD friend? What about the title of this thread, the very clips that head it?

I admit that some people are fakes, but what about Chris Crudelli and his forcefield? What about my Aunty, who has done Yoga and has heard about it?

It's not all in the movies. You can find out about it wherever you look.

If you look in Wikipedia, it does say that West and East have had difficulty reconciling this, though it lists about ten religions that have a form of Ki.

I have no difficulty with it as I am a Buddhist. I believe in reincarnation.

So there.

[PeterR]

What about the Wikipedia reference?
I can guarntee you that the editors of the wikipedia article do not suggest Ki is supernatural.

[CarlRylander]

What about John Stevens, then?

In 'The Art of Peace' he says Ueshiba could sense attackers even when he was asleep. He said U wouldn't go on electric trams because their field affected him.

[Basia Halliop]

Did John Stevens provide any more evidence than you?

I admit it's fantastic. But fantastic things do happen.It's not mundane. It may have a simple scientific explanation, like hypnotism or EM fieds.

In everything I've seen there are two main 'simple scientific explanations', which occur separately or in various combinations:

a) classical newtonian physics and its interaction with human musculoskeletal anatomy
b) human psychology

[jennifer paige smith]

Did John Stevens provide any more evidence than you?

In everything I've seen there are two main 'simple scientific explanations', which occur separately or in various combinations:

a) classical newtonian physics and its interaction with human musculoskeletal anatomy
b) human psychology

Einstein provided the evidence and John Stevens et. al. provided the topic.

As Einstein said, 'Trajectory is in the ma-ai of the be-holder'.

[jennifer paige smith]

I can guarntee you that the editors of the wikipedia article do not suggest Ki is supernatural.

A thought on words:
Super + Natural
Extra + Ordinary
Very + Common

[Aristeia]

Actually that' just some words listed next to each other?

[Aristeia]

Einstein provided the evidence and John Stevens et. al. provided the topic.

As Einstein said, 'Trajectory is in the ma-ai of the be-holder'.Ok, I'll bite what evidence did Einstein provide for magical ki powers?

[Basia Halliop]

Kind of an aside, maybe irrelevent, but as a great lover of newtonian physics I always find it sad when people dismiss because it's not cool enough or something :(.

Classical physics is really gorgeous and brilliant and amazing! It deserves more respect and awe than it gets!

[/nerd rant]

[Aristeia]

yeah people like to go to quantum physics a lot at the moment. I think it's because quantum is kind of weird so people get the idea they can use it to justify all sorts of craziness.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Let me say this for you slowly. Derren Brown states *outright* that nothing he does is due to mystical or unusal powers. It's all trickery - magicians tricks, NLP tools, suggestion and subliminal messaging. He will state upfront he uses techniques that so called "psychics" use to *fool* the public.
....


I'd bet O Sensei and other "legit" ki blasters had these kind of skills (the Derren Brown and other mentalists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentalism) skills i mean) and put them to use in the martial arts field.

What i'd like to know, if it is the case, if O Sensei was a "natural", if he was self trained or if got this skills from a different source: Daito-Ryu, Omoto Kyo, Shingon....

And, of course, attributing these amazing skills to ki can be a) a cultural thing and lack of appropiate words in the original lenguage to define what we call "mentalism" or b) a way to deceive and hide this knowledge to general public/students and reserve it to "closed doors", "inner circle", top guys, heirs of the ryu and the like.

[kironin]

vs. a haughty grappler challenger (with NO study of ki...the poor fool!)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_1ykNZ7rAcw

Demonstrates exactly why it's not a good idea to jump to supernatural or magical explanations for something you see demonstrated or stories you read or hear about.

Rational thinking is something that has to be learned and even trained scientists can end up fooling themselves. Historical analysis pretty quickly reveals that rational thinking is the exception rather than the rule.

We all have these hideously complex noodles in our head that are all the time processing sensory information and converting it in to our conception of reality. We do it so unconsciously that we forget that our perception of reality is not reality but only an approximation colored by emotional and mental internal states. Something we see, feel, hear, that seems miraculous always needs a sober check if one doesn't wish to speedingly go down the road of self-delusion. If you wish to be convinced of something it's not too hard to convince you. Con men, scam artists, hustlers, political leaders have known this for millenia.
Sometimes we call this wishful thinking. It's so powerful that it's not unknown for leaders, teachers and scammers to fool themselves as well. They begin to believe the wish themselves.

I wish I could always wave my hand or yell and someone wishing to do me harm would simply fall down. Wouldn't that be nice. Wouldn't I feel in control. Wouldn't I feel safe. Very seductive.

There is a wonderful little book by Alan Cromer, "Uncommon Sense: The Heretical Nature of Science" that should be the starting grade school textbook for a general course on the introduction to science for all students.

No touch throws or other interesting Ki related phenomena in Aikido and other esoteric stuff in martial arts are only useful if you are willing to understand what is NOT happening. Too often the trouble starts when someone indulges in wishful thinking and takes something out of a very specific context.

:ki:

[Roman Kremianski]

This thread and it's poster has turned into a joke...I really can't bring myself to write anything else.

Classical physics is really gorgeous and brilliant and amazing! It deserves more respect and awe than it gets!

Hehe...that definitely sounds like a Basia-Style quote. :)

[Dazzler]

Ok, I'll bite what evidence did Einstein provide for magical ki powers?

albert said that ki = MC squared.

Bloody deaf aid playing up again....

[CarlRylander]

I'll believe that Derren Brown disclaimer if someone actually posts a vidclip showing his confession. And if it is a trick, why doesn't he show how it is done, then it would really blow all the others out of the water?

All I can say is, there are a lot of people who believe in this. There is evidence. On wikipedia, it states that some poltergeist evidence that cannot be explained.

I'm not saying that everyone can do this. It wouldn't be a very good starting point. It's something that might come after years of training, and then it might happen only rarely. You would be far better off relying on your reflexes and your training.

As I said, that John Stevens book talks a lot about it.

Becoming a joke? Try to isolate me all you want. It won't work.

[CarlRylander]

To add, it all might have a very twentieth century explanation. I'm open to that. Perhaps, when that bloke threw a settee without touching it, it just looked like he wasn't touching it. It may have been the positioning of his hands and application of strength.

In 'The Art of Peace', it says that O was once at a demo and one of the press photographers said 'This is all fake'. O shouted at them and all their flash bulbs went off at once. Perhaps it was some form of hypnotic suggestion that made them all press their buttons at once, if indeed they did cue the flashes.

Perhaps applying a 'Chris Crudelli force field' is some kind of hypnotic suggestion, too.

I think that O said that you have to use all the resources that are available to hand.

[Aristeia]

Wikipedia is not the fool proof reference you seem to think it is. That said do a modecum of research on Derren Brown and you'll see - it's not like it's a secret.

[PeterR]

Wikipedia is not the fool proof reference you seem to think it is. That said do a modecum of research on Derren Brown and you'll see - it's not like it's a secret.

The wikipedia article on aikido is not too shabby - pity Carl hasn't read it.

[CitoMaramba]

Here are some excerpts from the Wikipedia article on Derren Brown:
"Derren Victor Brown (born February 27, 1971) is an English psychological illusionist and skeptic of paranormal phenomena"
"...Derren Brown states at the beginning of his Trick of the Mind programmes that he achieves his results using a combination of "magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship"."

There's the confession right there.

[Dewey]

After having watched this thread for a few days, I finally have to give my observations:
First, I think this thread has veered off course. Anybody with an account can post their opinions on Youtube. Everybody had a right to their opinions. However, some opinions are worth more than others. Anytime I go to Youtube, I never waste my time reading user opinions. Neither should you.
Second, it seems to me that this thread discussion finally comes down to that age-old discussion that has occupied Aikodo since the beginning: "what exactly is ki and how does it work?"

As we know, there are many "ki philosophers" both within Aikido and without. We can immediately think of the "heavyweights" in this debate: K. Tohei through various published works (both in his Aikikai and ex-Aikikai days); as well as the 2nd Doshu, who eloquently put forth his explanation in "The Spirit of Aikido." Not to mention various other uchideshi of O'Sensei, who perhaps never published anything, but have had interviews transcribed (many stored on Aikido Journal's website). Then lastly, you have the opinions of tens of thousands of Aikidoka around the world. The conclusion: they all have different opinions...some dramatically so. There doesn't really appear to be any real concensus (not unless somebody didn't give me the memo;) ).

However, my personal opinion is that ki is not "the Force" nor any other sort of paranormal phenonema, nor will ki give me supernatural powers. Ki, as Tohei said back in his Aikikai days, is the coordination of the mind & body...and Aikido is the coordination of the mind & body for self-defense.

[Paul Sanderson-Cimino]

There is evidence. On wikipedia, it states that some poltergeist evidence that cannot be explained.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha...

Anyway, I'll briefly reply to what you posted as "evidence" earlier.

I think that what the first (?) guy interviewed on the "Kick Ass Moves" program said applies well to the entire show. These are "vagabond tricks" meant to "make a little money" and put on a display. To be sure, not just any random idiot can do them -- there is definitely skill involved, as with any "magic show". But there's nothing in most of them that demands a supernatural explanation.

The show was not exactly scientific in its methods -- its purpose is to entertain, and it was entertaining to watch -- but there were a few things that, to the extent to which they were investigated on-camera, would at face value suggest something supernatural. Like the kiai guy. At face value. Send a random person up to slug said kiai master, though, and I suspect that the planets may suddenly fail to align in a truly unfortunate and bizarre occurrence which leaves him briefly for the first time in his life without his mystical powers (insert more excuses here).

As for his "forcefield" -- oh, come on. That should not be difficult for you to explain. If he's proposing that he's really projecting mystical energy that can control matter, he should go claim his million dollars.

[Jonshez]

I would say that I thought all this was common knowledge. I mean, the bit about fantasic things in martial arts. I thought everybody knew about them, especially martial arts people.
The fact that there are martial arts people who don't believe in even the least fantastic astounds me. I thought you all did.

Carl, it may be time to re-evaluate your opinion. Based on the experiences you've had you came to a conclusion. You're now comparing your conclusion (based on opinion) with the thoughts of people with experience and finding a substantial difference.
Logic dictates that you need to re-examine the evidence, maybe experience if for yourself rather than be frustrated that your theory isn't standing up to the rigour of testing.

I'm not saying you're theory is wrong, just that we shouldn't be afraid to have a thoughts and beliefs challenged. They aren't immutable facts. Get in a dojo and find more evidence for yourself.

Best wishes.

Jon

[jennifer paige smith]

:circle: Ok, I'll bite what evidence did Einstein provide for magical ki powers?

ok, I'll answer,Insight into Ma-ai. but this is what I came here to say:

I'm here to share the insights and training that I have gotten standing at the side of some of the most amazing, enigmatic and beautiful people this planet has to offer. The privelidge of walking with samurai and other warriors for 'peace' is the greatest gift I have ever gotten. The opportunity to feel and experience the energy and time/space that I have polished my life with is only something others imagine. I've gotten to walk it. I've gotten to bite into the bread of the Japanese Samurai and have fed myself on it's merits since I was a very young woman. I have been treated with brutality, love. indifference, fierceness, racism, sexism, and total admiration equally. I have been tossed so rightly without ever feeling it, By Kato Sensei in this particular instance, that I had to open my eyes to the phenomena that created the moment. A perhaps unrepeatable moment that I will treasure with Kato Sensei and O'Sensei for making me become more awake. I can't fight the inner fight of others nor argue away their demons, I can only commit and re-commit my life to a path that has proven to be true and worthy. There is something amazing at work when an orphan like me can become a woman warrior who walks among the tried and true warriors of the past.
I hope everyone who is reading this thread will have the great benefit of the teachers and experiences that I have been so blessed to have. I hope that there will be a moment where you forget everything you ever knew and can begin again with the eyes of a child, like the eyes of my teachers and now my eyes, too. I could never be driven to criticize or become embittered in the wake of such a gift. And I could never be driven or convinced that my teachers are false, when they are true. If you train well, no matter what you believe, this respect for life will happen.
Whatever you call it.

BTW: so as to not break any hearts, I also love Newtonian Physics. I just happen to think that it is part of a whole body of science and not the whole, itself.

I hope everyones training goes as well and honestly as mine has.
Sincerely,
jen

[Aristeia]

ahhhh.....so where does Einstein come into that?

[PeterR]

He doesn't and he never did.

Really hate people trying to add credence to arguments by assigning false quotes (in fun or otherwise).

[kironin]

couldn't resist...:D

"A human being is a part of a whole, called by us _universe_, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
- A. Einstein

Copyright: Kevin Harris 1995 (may be freely distributed with this acknowledgement)

[PeterR]

Interesting that a quote by Einstein is copyrighted by someone else.

Very pretty - but is it Ki. :D

[kironin]

I found a different source for the quote that didn't insist on that weird acknowledgment (translator?), but I got caught by Jun's 15 min edit rule. :grr:

hell no, not about Ki :)
but actually much much more interesting than that issue I think.
Reminds me more of how Tohei or Ueshiba talk when they talk about Ki. They talk in terms of philosophy when they talk about Ki. It's clear that they are not thinking about magic or other such sloppy delusional thinking but in how to connect with all things, etc. etc. ....

"A human being is part of the whole called by us universe , a part limited in time and space.
We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest.
A kind of optical delusion of consciousness.
This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us.
Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty...
We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if mankind is to survive." - A. Einstein

[CarlRylander]

This thread started with me alerting everyone about a video on Youtube and some of the comments that were posted, saying that Usheiba was a fake and a charlatan and probably senile.

No-one here has said that, thankfully.

I maintain that there are somethings not explainable by twentieth or twenty first century science. That does not mean that they will never be unexplainable.

If you want another 'wacky' example from my treasure trove of 'wackiness'; there have been experiments done in which show that dogs, when video'd, can sense when their owners are do to return home. Two cameras were set up. One on the dog at home, one on the owner at work. The owner, at a random time, decided to go home and set off. The video on the dog showed it becoming excited and looking as if it was ready to greet its owner. This was repeated for different owners and different dogs and at different times. The report was in Scientific American and on the news. Perhaps we will see a dog millionaire, thanks to James Randi. Or perhaps dogs are less materialistic than us.

I stand by what John Stevens has reported, though he did seem to imply it it was fantastic.

[Aristeia]

got a specific cite for that study?

[philippe willaume]

Hello all.

Carl
Ki/chi is just a way ancient Chinese/ Japanese had to explain the world around them.
Exactly as we do with Newtonian and Einsteinian physics.
(and eventually the theory that will link them together)

Amazingly enough, phenomenon that can be described using both physics and ki can be done by anybody (provided a meaningful explication to them). Amazingly enough as well that phenomenon can be reproduced on sceptics at will and we can explain failure.
And that is the point. KI used in that way stands to extensive critical experimentation.
So we can propose that ki=combination of mind and spirit is just another way of saying ki=Newtonians physics and bio-mechanics.

Those using a mystical power only tend not to be repeatable on sceptics. I have yet to be repelled by an invisible barrier, knocked of by a light touch on the arm followed by one on the neck. I have yet to see that being demonstrated with a success rate over 75% on a panels of sceptic subjects. Neither does it seems to be possible to consistently replicate it, Nor is there any reasonable explanation to failure
And that is where you argumentation falls short.
It has nothing to do with being explainable by science or not, for example we can not really explain why a blow to the liver or the cardio thoracic area can disable a person, but it can be reproduce consistently on a large panel and in different circumstance.

I can cut cabbage with a large blunt wooden spoon, whilst cutting them from a galloping /cantering horse.
It does not mean that a large wooden spoon is a fantastic cutting weapon.

As far as animals are concerned, my mare was always at the gate to greet me when I was going to see her everyday, even if I change cars
Either it is an amazing six sense or like other horses, she is gregarious and can recognise different individual in the pack, has a earning and a long range sight that put us human to shame.

phil

[philippe willaume]

Hello all.

Carl
Ki/chi is just a way ancient Chinese/ Japanese had to explain the world around them.
Exactly as we do with Newtonian and Einsteinian physics.
(and eventually the theory that will link them together)

Amazingly enough, phenomenon that can be described using both physics and ki can be done by anybody (provided a meaningful explication to them). Amazingly enough as well that phenomenon can be reproduced on sceptics at will and we can explain failure.
And that is the point. KI used in that way stands to extensive critical experimentation.
So we can propose that ki=combination of mind and spirit is just another way of saying ki=Newtonians physics and bio-mechanics.

Those using a mystical power only tend not to be repeatable on sceptics subjects. I have yet to be repelled by an invisible barrier, knocked of by a light touch on the arm followed by one on the neck. I have yet to see that being demonstrated with a success rate over 75% on a panels of sceptic subjects. Neither does it seems to be possible to consistently replicate it, Nor is there any reasonable explanation to failure

It has nothing to do with being explainable by science or not, for example we can not really explain why a blow to the liver or the cardio thoracic area can disable a person, but it can be reproduce consistently on a large panel and in different circumstance.

to take a stupid example
you can cut cabbage just by presenting a large blunt wooden spoon, whilst cutting them from a galloping /cantering horse.
it does not really matter if you call it ki or kinetic energy to describe what happens however which ever way you explain it, you need to be aware that cutting a similar cabbage on foot using the same move will never works.

As far as animals are concerned, my mare was always at the gate to greet me when I was going to see her everyday, even if I change cars
Either it is an amazing six sense or like other horses, she is gregarious and can recognise different individual in the pack, has a earning and a long range sight that put us human to shame.

phil