What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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[wildaikido]

Hopefully we know about the scientific method (if not they didn’t, they do now :D) But my point was you don't go out drop a brick and a feather and say, heavy things fall faster than light thing because that is what you observe. Especially when Galileo has already proved that this Greek notion is wrong. We should always start by learning the lessons of those who came before us. Then we will develop past them.

I said you may be the person that would say the negative comment about me saying I could handle a BJJer. I don't know you so I can't say you’re that person. You say you aren't, so I believe you. But then Darin said,

You missed my point. And yes even big strong guys like you do get mugged or worse. I don't think its something you can be too confident about. Self defense Is about common sense and luck.

So someone somewhere at some point will say it.

Like I said before, the best method to deal with a BJJer is to knock him out with one strike! But obviously without the training you will never succeed. Could a karateka do it? I would love to see Kanazawa in his prime have to defend himself against a BJJer on the street. It would be interesting to see. Kanazawa has the sort of spirit you would expect to be successful, with the goods to back it up.

If you want a sure fire method, that will be more of a struggle, and will take longer to do, and will require you to have a similar strength fitness and ability, take him to the ground and beat him at his game. This is how I would do it, after lunching a knee at his face if he shoots, or my elbow to his chin, if he is standing. Maybe it will connect, and maybe he will go down. But at least it will help me when we are on the floor, since he has to deal with his dislocated jaw or his broken nose, maybe.

Talented people can make a sport work for them. But the principle in Yoseikan is mutual welfare and prosperity. Those who will fail with the sport method are then left behind, and this creates an unbalance in society. An unbalanced society will lead to social problems. Hence a training method that is suitable for all is better.

Regards,

[JamesDavid]

To me aikido really isn’t designed to deal with someone trying to take you to the ground. But what would I do? To answer the original question i have been of the opinion lately that you need to be able to implement technique in a static environment. Specifically as has been mentioned in this thread you are not likely to get a lead on a trained BJJ practitioner, or any other martial art practitioner for that matter. Techniques that are trained to control and throw in aikido have their origin in much more savage application (which you should know).

1.If you can't lead into a throw then use the technique to break. i know, not very sporting.

2. Take atemi seriously. I work out on a punching bag with the atemi I have been taught and I think it fits into aikido body movement better that boxing style of striking (obviously).
.
3. The guy is almost certainly going to get you to the ground. So either train in BJJ or get your friend to kick the guy in the head while you are rolling around on the ground. Not very sporting I know.

a questions for the BJJ people, would hard ground affect your takedown technique??

[darin]

I can not comment on the activities of "Jan de Jong Martial Arts Fitness" and I think it best that I don't. I will say my 6th, 5th, and 4th kyu grades and certificates were signed by Jan.

As for me, under Sensei Hans, he got his shodan from Yoshi, and he got his 6th dan from Mochizuki Kancho. My 3rd and 2nd kyu certificates are from Hans. I will never get a shodan from Hans, I don't think he would ever offer one, and I would never ask for one.

The term Yoseikan does not only belong to the current Mochizuki family. Also, this fact does not stop our Aikido being Yoseikan Aikido. Lets just say I am not going to be doing a Gary Bennett and appointing myself a 10th dan, EVER!

Regards,

Is that why you were training with Ross? How'd he go with him accepting your grade from Hans? Not criticising your ability just wondering about the politics with the Seifukai. How about Patrick Auge?

[darin]

Back to the topic, I think it all depends on what the BJJ guy will do. The thing is, in a street situation he may be pointing his finger in your face. Or in a bar pushing you. You only see these kinds of attacks in the UFC press conferences! hehehe

I too like Graham have had success using leg and ankle locks against grapplers as well as foot sweeps. But then again we don't do pure aikido and Yoseikan Budo wasn't just aikido.

I still think it comes down to how you train.

[wildaikido]

Is that why you were training with Ross? How'd he go with him accepting your grade from Hans? Not criticising your ability just wondering about the politics with the Seifukai. How about Patrick Auge?

Ross was very happy to accept my 4th kyu at the time. He said, in theory, a couple of years (which would have been a couple of years ago) and he was happy for me to be a shodan.

In America, Auge Sensei was very accepting of me. I found with my 8 years (at the time) and 2nd kyu I was at the level I belonged at, but there was really only one second kyu to compare myself to, William, and he, I think, had been doing it for a while (he is the guy that kicked my arse with the grappling). I know for sure the brown belts were above and beyond me, hence I know what I am training to achieve.

Regards,

[DonMagee]

Hopefully we know about the scientific method (if not they didn't, they do now :D) But my point was you don't go out drop a brick and a feather and say, heavy things fall faster than light thing because that is what you observe. Especially when Galileo has already proved that this Greek notion is wrong. We should always start by learning the lessons of those who came before us. Then we will develop past them.

I said you may be the person that would say the negative comment about me saying I could handle a BJJer. I don't know you so I can't say you're that person. You say you aren't, so I believe you. But then Darin said,

So someone somewhere at some point will say it.

Like I said before, the best method to deal with a BJJer is to knock him out with one strike! But obviously without the training you will never succeed. Could a karateka do it? I would love to see Kanazawa in his prime have to defend himself against a BJJer on the street. It would be interesting to see. Kanazawa has the sort of spirit you would expect to be successful, with the goods to back it up.

If you want a sure fire method, that will be more of a struggle, and will take longer to do, and will require you to have a similar strength fitness and ability, take him to the ground and beat him at his game. This is how I would do it, after lunching a knee at his face if he shoots, or my elbow to his chin, if he is standing. Maybe it will connect, and maybe he will go down. But at least it will help me when we are on the floor, since he has to deal with his dislocated jaw or his broken nose, maybe.

Talented people can make a sport work for them. But the principle in Yoseikan is mutual welfare and prosperity. Those who will fail with the sport method are then left behind, and this creates an unbalance in society. An unbalanced society will lead to social problems. Hence a training method that is suitable for all is better.

Regards,

Judo also has the same goal of mutual welfare and benefit. However, the training methods are not designed for everyone. My fear is that like the "No child left behind Act" in the Unites States, targeting a training method everyone can do means watering down your training to the lowest ability level of the group. When students couldn't pass the tests in high school, to keep funding schools made the tests easier. Without exclusion, you see the same in martial arts.

That is NOT to say some people should no train. Everyone should train, however, people need to realize they will not always succeed. Not everyone will get a black belt, or even get past their white belt. The encouragement should be to train, everyone can train, even if its only for 5 minutes at the level most judo and bjj clubs train at. The training is for everyone, just everyone might not be successful at it.

In regards to the scientific method, the martial arts are not an exact science. In fact most of our proofs have never been recreated. There is not a single person in aikido today who can do what Ueshiba did. To me this means one of three things.
a) aikdoka of today are training wrong on purpose for some reason.
b) Ueshiba was a poor teacher and did not teach what he knew.
c) The stories were not true.

Unlike the feather and the brick, we can not reproduce what Ueshiba was able to do. I can quickly test the feather and brick and find they fall at the same speeds and grow on it. I can quickly test the effectiveness of an armbar and grow on it. But the metaphysical subjects that I am questioning can not be tested. They are more like philosophy or psychology. There is no proof or right answer, unlike an armbar. Also my personal testing in both types of training environments has proven to me there is something lacking in non-sport training that I think is dearly important. This is in direct conflict with Ueshiba. Who is right? Me, Him, probably both. It is not disrespectful to challenge him. I doubt he even cares.

Someone asks if hard ground would change the way I do takedowns. The short answer is no, my takedowns work the same no matter how hard the ground is, you are my landing mat. Squishy human is soft no matter if its concrete or a bed of nails.

[wildaikido]

Judo also has the same goal of mutual welfare and benefit. However, the training methods are not designed for everyone. My fear is that like the "No child left behind Act" in the Unites States, targeting a training method everyone can do means watering down your training to the lowest ability level of the group. When students couldn't pass the tests in high school, to keep funding schools made the tests easier. Without exclusion, you see the same in martial arts.

Judo was originally developed for this goal. That is why it is taught in the school system in Japan. This was Kano's goal, not an Olympic sport, with that type of training.

That is NOT to say some people should no train. Everyone should train, however, people need to realize they will not always succeed. Not everyone will get a black belt, or even get past their white belt. The encouragement should be to train, everyone can train, even if its only for 5 minutes at the level most judo and bjj clubs train at. The training is for everyone, just everyone might not be successful at it.

I think with the right teacher everyone can succeed.

In regards to the scientific method, the martial arts are not an exact science. In fact most of our proofs have never been recreated. There is not a single person in aikido today who can do what Ueshiba did. To me this means one of three things.
a) aikdoka of today are training wrong on purpose for some reason.
b) Ueshiba was a poor teacher and did not teach what he knew.
c) The stories were not true.

It would have to be a combination of the three. But that makes the goal no less important. The main problem today, and I think even in the later years of O'Sensei's life, is that you don't get the feeling that the uke is really testing tori, it is mostly a flashy demonstration. When you see footage of Mifune with his partners, you know those guys are trying to throw him, and he moves effetely past them, and then throws them in return. This is how it used to be with O'Sensei. So with consistent hard mindful training, the evidence is still there, Kano, Ueshiba, Mifune, Mochizuki, that it is possible to cultivate the awareness to use simple techniques to overcome an opponent.

Unlike the feather and the brick, we can not reproduce what Ueshiba was able to do. I can quickly test the feather and brick and find they fall at the same speeds and grow on it. I can quickly test the effectiveness of an armbar and grow on it. But the metaphysical subjects that I am questioning can not be tested. They are more like philosophy or psychology. There is no proof or right answer, unlike an armbar. Also my personal testing in both types of training environments has proven to me there is something lacking in non-sport training that I think is dearly important. This is in direct conflict with Ueshiba. Who is right? Me, Him, probably both. It is not disrespectful to challenge him. I doubt he even cares.

I would not call it metaphysical. This is kind of a cop-out. You can see the physical manifestation. Today I only see it in kendo, were old guys bust out simple flicks and beat down younger faster stronger opponents. But it is there.

The topic of sport or not sport training is highly subjective. To me a sport leads to a competition. A competition leads to a winner. A winner requires a loser. There is nothing mutually beneficial in this situation. I would say that O'Sensei is right. But I track this logic up to the idea of the cold war as Mochizuki Kancho spoke about. If you think about a winning and losing mentality in terms of a war, losing is bad. Ultimately, everyone loses. This is the fact of mutually assure destruction. Plant the seed that it’s not okay to lose in a future president’s mind, and when it comes time to choose to step down or press the button, there’s a chance it won't be good, for the whole world!

Regards,

[Aristeia]

I see this kind of rhetoric alot from the art vs sport debate and it tells me that people just don't understand what they are calling "competitive" training.
Having taught in both Aikido and BJJ it is very clear to me that it's the latter that really teaches people the value of losing. It's not a subject that ever comes up in aikido - but it's an almost everyday discussion on the BJJ mat...

[Basia Halliop]

The topic of sport or not sport training is highly subjective. To me a sport leads to a competition. A competition leads to a winner. A winner requires a loser. There is nothing mutually beneficial in this situation.

Well, that implies you think there is nothing beneficial to losing. If 'losing' means no longer having training available (i.e., if you had to auditione for it or if poor 'performers' get kicked out or get lesser quality training), that's one thing, but if it means 'you don't get to complete the technique you wanted to complete, and instead you have to tap out', or 'you don't get this particular rank today' that's pretty different. That may or may not teach you a lot, depending on the circumstances (I mean if it's too far over your head it might not be helpful, but if it's right at the right level it can teach you plenty).

I think with the right teacher everyone can succeed.

Succeed to the same level when compared to each other student, though? (I don't think every human being on earth has it in them to be a 7th dan, unless we arbitrarily change the defnition of 7th dan to include them. The same goes for any rank, unless the ranks are given for effort instead of achievement, which makes them something quite different). Or succeed relative to their own goals and abilities, in the sense that each student should get better in some way with time?

[Kevin Leavitt]

Interesting conversation!

I think alot of this, as everything in life, depends on how you define success and failure.

I think too many times we assume that everyone defines it the same and that there is only one set of values or criteria to judge success and failure on.

I think with martial type training we tend to want to draw a conclusion on success and failure based on a "would you have lived or died, or suffered a severe injury.

Sort of a black or white criteria, or duality so to speak....

I find this quite ironic since this is the very thing that budo really seeks to eliminate or to at least reach a deeper understanding of.

...yet we all feel compelled to judge ourselves and others martial ability and effectiveness against some criteria that we some how established based on ....what?

Our perception of how well we do...however we self define it!

In a competitive environment we do have criteria to judge effectiveness...in things like judo and BJJ tournaments were we determine winners and losers of the matches on that established critieria.

That said, I don't really think that anyone I compete with in BJJ really cares or takes it too seriously macroscopically.

I just think of the 75 plus year old man that I saw from Sweden in January and the Europeans that got out there and rolled with the rest of us! I think everyone considered him a winner just for having the desire and the joy of life to actually be out there doing it!

[JamesDavid]

[QUOTE=Someone asks if hard ground would change the way I do takedowns. The short answer is no, my takedowns work the same no matter how hard the ground is, you are my landing mat. Squishy human is soft no matter if its concrete or a bed of nails.[/QUOTE]

Thanks

Do you think as a BJJ practitioner you could implement a takedown or defence of a takedown that would take advantage of the hard ground?

[Aristeia]

most takedowns land uke on the ground under nage - so yeah hard ground play into the takedown guys favour. Also if you sprawl on a guy on concrete he's not having a great day....

[DonMagee]

Thanks

Do you think as a BJJ practitioner you could implement a takedown or defence of a takedown that would take advantage of the hard ground?

I'm also a judoka, so I'm not not a normal bjj player. But most of the guys in my club are either wrestlers or judoka, and they have good takedown skills. Even on the mats I've been slamed so hard I had to take a few seconds to get my bearings.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Certainly the composition of the ground material is a factor. That said, the situation is what the situation is, you don't really have much of a choice many times over what you have for ground cover, it is what it is.

To me, putting things in perspective, there is no difference in execution on hard ground vice soft ground...it just hurts more and not something you want to train on.

you tuck your head in on soft ground as well as hard ground, you move the same way on the ground, albiet you might get scuffed up and road rash...

it is what it is.

[bob_stra]

Okay, my lack of wanting to say I can handle a trained BJJ is only from a lack of ego. I did say I easily handled a black belt in judo, and I will add that I also handled the brown belt that was in the same class, who was training for the sole purpose of competing. My ne waza randori against him resulted in me doing things that were not allowed in judo (to his feet and hands) hence we had to break and start again.


Where was this, please?

Besides which, it's a little disingenuous to say 'handled' when you patiently did things that were outside the scope of that practice session, isn't it? That would be akin to me pulling out a gun and shooting you during Jiyu-Waza.


How many times do I need to tell you I train to fight on the ground! Yoseikan Aikido includes the ground fighting from judo. My personal experience of cleaning up a black belt in judo here I Australia, every time on the floor, and then having my arse handed to me by a purple belt Yoseikan Aikidoka in the US, tells me that the ground fighting we do is good.


Same question again.

Mike Fooks: clean up your inbox: I'm trying to send you PM's but they keep bouncing back :(

[wildaikido]

Where was this, please?

It was at the Scarborough PCYC.

Besides which, it's a little disingenuous to say 'handled' when you patiently did things that were outside the scope of that practice session, isn't it? That would be akin to me pulling out a gun and shooting you during Jiyu-Waza.

No it was just Ne Waza randori. However, I had no concept of "rules" so every now and again Allen would call "Shido". Allan liked to use me as a practice dummy for his senior brown belt, as I was bigger and had a little more resistance in me then his black belt (also I think the brown belt had sussed out the black belts tactics). I stopped training with him because I didn't like being used as a training tool for his competition. And I got injured due to this in my 4th and final class with him.

I will say I have surprised most of the judo clubs I have gone to, even Peter at Judo International (;)) was surprised. However, I felt he was a little heavy on the competition aspect.

Same question again.

I do most of my ground training on Friday day at ECU in Joondalup. The final 15 to 20 minutes of training is grappling. Occasionally we get a chance to do some on Tuesday night.

Regards

[Kevin Leavitt]

Interesting Bob...same thought came to my mind concerning the gun analogy.

there certainly is a spectrum of force, paradiqms, rules (implied, specified, and assumed) in any situation.

The concept of "handled" can mean many things. As with you the concept of a handgun popped in my mind. I can pretty much handle any body with a empty hand attack, or even a non-projectile weapon outside of that fighitng range with a handgun.

So what is the point of developing a decision criteria surrounding the overall worth of an art based on whatever you personally decide is a good one to judge things on?

I will "one up" you with the hand gun. then someone else will "one up me with guided missles, or blow darts, and on and on.

The point is, not the comparison of whether Aikidoka can handle judoka, bjjers, on others within a set of parameters we establish.

The point is, IMO, what we can learn from the various encounters and experiences that can lead to a deeper understanding of ourselves and others we interact with.

Not trying to sound too esoteric or high brow on this...frankly I love a good challenge and would gladly meet anyone that wants to test their skill level against me.

I always win.

why? because it ain't about the being "handled" part of it for me, but the understanding and knowledge that we both gain from the encounter.

(I am both an aikidoka and a BJJer)

[wildaikido]

The point is, IMO, what we can learn from the various encounters and experiences that can lead to a deeper understanding of ourselves and others we interact with.

I think this embodies the principle of Shiai Kano Sensei gave us, "to try together," not to compete.

Regards,

[Kevin Leavitt]

Yes. I think Kano's point is missed often. The competition model can be a good tool to learn his lessons and grow with as long as competition is a means to the end, and not the measure of overall success of effectiveness.

[wildaikido]

Yes. I think Kano's point is missed often. The competition model can be a good tool to learn his lessons and grow with as long as competition is a means to the end, and not the measure of overall success of effectiveness.
Hear, hear.

[darin]

I think I know that judo instructor at the Scarborough PCYC but I can't remember his name. Been over a year since I was last there. The aikido school there is now a part of John Langley's institute of aikido.

[wildaikido]

I think I know that judo instructor at the Scarborough PCYC but I can't remember his name. Been over a year since I was last there. The aikido school there is now a part of John Langley's institute of aikido.

I was about to say, I would have thought you would have trained with them. But then I though, Yoshi was more of a Karateka, so he might not have been to heavy on the Judo. Didn't he teach kids judo?

Regards,

PS Yes, his name is Allen, or maybe Allan, or Alan... I don't know

Just looked him up, Allen it is.

[bob_stra]

It was at the Scarborough PCYC.



Beating a man well into his 60's is not going to look good on paper :)

EDIT: Oh I see. Yes, I know of whom you speak....

Still, a sample size of one judoka BB (whom, AFAIK, doesn't like or do a lot of groundwork)...hmm


No it was just Ne Waza randori. However, I had no concept of "rules" so every now and again Allen would call "Shido".


Yes, well....Alan is an interesting character :)


I will say I have surprised most of the judo clubs I have gone to, even Peter at Judo International (;)) was surprised. However, I felt he was a little heavy on the competition aspect.


Oh - you're that Graham! :)

But I only saw you there for one class - what happened? Were you just popping in to check the place out, or did you decide that didn't meet your needs?

Shame, as there is some decent training going on Monday and Thurs nights, esp in regards to randori (newaza and tachiwaza). Strong guys: we now also sport a few BJJ purple and blue belts.

I'd recommend you look at UWA (ex Olympians and Int'l players)....but it seems you'd prefer a less competitive atmosphere?

PS: Did you check out the Kawaishi folks I recommended (IIRC)?


I do most of my ground training on Friday day at ECU in Joondalup. The final 15 to 20 minutes of training is grappling. Occasionally we get a chance to do some on Tuesday night.


The BJJ / MMA club there? Or something else?

[wildaikido]

Beating a man well into his 60's is not going to look good on paper :)

EDIT: Oh I see. Yes, I know of whom you speak....

Still, a sample size of one judoka BB (whom, AFAIK, doesn't like or do a lot of groundwork)...hmm

No, it wasn't Allen, it was his black belt, I say his, as for the 4 weeks I was there, there was only one. I can't recall his name.

Yes, well....Alan is an interesting character :)

Well lets just say there was one other thing that made me want to stop training :D

Oh - you're that Graham! :)

But I only saw you there for one class - what happened? Were you just popping in to check the place out, or did you decide that didn't meet your needs?

Shame, as there is some decent training going on Monday and Thurs nights, esp in regards to randori (newaza and tachiwaza).

Strong guys: we now also sport a few BJJ purple and blue belts.

I'd recommend you look at UWA....but it seems you'd prefer a less competitive atmosphere?

PS: Did you check out the Kawaishi folks I recommended?

The BJJ / MMA club there? Or something else?

I enjoyed the training, but like I said, Peter was very into the competition, so it doesn't really gel with my "philosophy" I really just want to learn techniques to improve my Yoseikan.

YOU MENTIONED SOME KAWAISHI PEOPLE!!! PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD REMENTION THEM TO ME! I HAVE KAWAISHI'S BOOKS, THE MAN IS A LEGEND!

:eek: Shin kyoku, deep breath...

Regards,

[Daniel Blanco]

Aikido will work well if you concentrate on distance,tech,Off Balancing and throwing.Do not try to pin,because BJJ artist train to fight on the ground,your technic( small circle & tight no slack) Ok.Now to all who read this message RESPECT THE ART OF BJJ,because these artist will put your lights out.I have a great respect for BJJ,and all arts,and so should everyone.

[wildaikido]

Aikido will work well if you concentrate on distance,tech,Off Balancing and throwing.Do not try to pin,because BJJ artist train to fight on the ground,your technic( small circle & tight no slack) Ok.Now to all who read this message RESPECT THE ART OF BJJ,because these artist will put your lights out.I have a great respect for BJJ,and all arts,and so should everyone.

Who is disrespecting BJJers?

[bob_stra]

I enjoyed the training, but like I said, Peter was very into the competition, so it doesn't really gel with my "philosophy" I really just want to learn techniques to improve my Yoseikan.


You just haven't had enough practice tuning stuff out :)

I do little things that you're not meant to all the time... (within the bounds of judo, of course). Had I know that was what you were interested, we could have discussed using some of those JJJ techs of yours in newaza. And I'm sure the BJJ guys wouldn't mind either.

It's a good place to train: they go hard but safe. Your only other real option for that level of vigour (and beyond) is UWA....but...yeah: it's rough ;)

There's also some good training at Subiaco PCYC, when there are enough seniors on the mat. I train kata down there on Sundays (which I suspect you'd enjoy) and occassionally do the Thursday class.


YOU MENTIONED SOME KAWAISHI PEOPLE!!! PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD REMENTION THEM TO ME! I HAVE KAWAISHI'S BOOKS, THE MAN IS A LEGEND!

:eek: Shin kyoku, deep breath...

Regards,

http://www.users.bigpond.com/JISHIN/martial-art.htm

There's also a sambo club down that way, FWIW

What's this thing at ECU? I haven't seen any flyers around campus, although I know of a BJJ/MMA club

[wildaikido]

http://www.users.bigpond.com/JISHIN/martial-art.htm

There's also a sambo club down that way, FWIW

Oh now I remember, If I could get down that way I would, now I know they are Kawaishi people! Way to far from Joondalup!

What's this thing at ECU? I haven't seen any flyers around campus, although I know of a BJJ/MMA club

I run a Yoseikan training group. I have had way too many students, up to 16 on Tuesday, so I have not put any new flyers up. Last year I had 6, and then all of a sudden after a year (literally) it jumped up to 14! I say literally a year, as the Tuesday before was our 1 year celebration.

Regards,

[bob_stra]

I run a Yoseikan training group. I have had way too many students, up to 16 on Tuesday, so I have not put any new flyers up. Last year I had 6, and then all of a sudden after a year (literally) it jumped up to 14! I say literally a year, as the Tuesday before was our 1 year celebration.

Regards,

Where are you guys training - at the sport and rec building? I might pop my head in and say hi.

Morcombe (state BJJ champion and IIRC purple belt) is also at ECU joondalup. There's quite a few MMA guys there too.

One of the lecturers in the Sports Science dept is a former Olympic level judoka too.

Small world.

PM seeing you're online - I have question to ask you

[wildaikido]

Where are you guys training - at the sport and rec building? I might pop my head in and say hi.

Morcombe (state BJJ champion and IIRC purple belt) is also at ECU joondalup. There's quite a few MMA guys there too.

One of the lecturers in the Sports Science dept is a former Olympic level judoka too.

Small world.

We are in the sports centre.

I did not know we had BJJ/MMA on campus, I have only seen some gokan ryu karate people :disgust:

Who is the lecturer? I would love to see if I can convince him to take a class. I probably wouldn't succeed, but I would ask.

Regards,

[bob_stra]

We are in the sports centre.

Who is the lecturer? I would love to see if I can convince him to take a class. I probably wouldn't succeed, but I would ask.

Regards,

http://www.sebhs.ecu.edu.au/staff/cv/fiona_iredale.php

[wildaikido]

http://www.sebhs.ecu.edu.au/staff/cv/fiona_iredale.php

I will try and speak with Fiona next week. I think I have met here at some faculty research functions. If she does not train else where, and would like to, I would love to have her teach me and the other trainees so judo.

The one thing I got from training under guys like Peter was I don’t commit enough with my throws. It is just my desire not to hurt people :)

Several of us were going to train with Carlo, but he changed his senior class from Monday to Tuesday, which now clashes with our training. Oh well.

Regards,

[bob_stra]

I will try and speak with Fiona next week. I think I have met here at some faculty research functions. If she does not train else where, and would like to, I would love to have her teach me and the other trainees so judo.

The one thing I got from training under guys like Peter was I don't commit enough with my throws. It is just my desire not to hurt people :)

Several of us were going to train with Carlo, but he changed his senior class from Monday to Tuesday, which now clashes with our training. Oh well.

Regards,

I believe Clive take classes at UWA on Fridays or Sat afternoons...you may enjoy his approach.

Of course, I'm not going to say no to another Kata partner on Sundays at subiaco either...so that's an option for you as well. Gareth focuses on broad scope of judo and IIRC is also dan ranked in jujitsu

I've sent you a PM (I think)...let me know <_<

[wildaikido]

I believe Clive take classes at UWA on Fridays or Sat afternoons...you may enjoy his approach.

Of course, I'm not going to say no to another Kata partner on Sundays at subiaco either...so that's an option for you as well. Gareth focuses on broad scope of judo and IIRC is also dan ranked in jujitsu

Trent who is a judoka that trains with us mentioned a kata class at subi, this is why I wanted to train at Scarborough, as they were supposed to do kata after class on Tuesday.

I just notice Fiona is the secretary of Judo WA. I will have to go seek her out now :D

Regards,

[akiy]

Hi folks,

Can I please ask everyone to move personal discussions not pertaining to the thread discussion on-hand to private messaging or private e-mail?

Thank you,

-- Jun

[wildaikido]

To tie my tangents back into the topic at hand (sorry Jun :() I would say, learn judo to deal with BJJ (as I am trying to arrange more of). If possible, Kawaishi's method would be best (as I exclaimed). His method includes all the ne waza you would see in BJJ such as knee bars and ankle locks.

Regards,

[bob_stra]

I wouldn't say all the techniques seen in BJJ....not by quite a ways.

But certainly more than mainstream judo.

I wasn't aware a spontaneous discovery and sharing of knowledge was against forum protocol. If you prefer, we could continue this thread in the rapidly ugly direction it was beginning to spiral in? (BJJ vs aikido, sport vs art)?

Your point is taken however...so no more from me. Good luck Graham and let me know how you get on!

[wildaikido]

I wouldn't say all the techniques seen in BJJ....not by quite a ways.

But certainly more than mainstream judo.

To stay on topic... I am yet to see a BJJ technique that I have not seen done by Mifune, or Kawaishi or in Kosen Judo. The techniques are nothing new to me. I would say there may be some slight difference, leading to variations etc.

Hence the reason I suggest judo to deal with BJJ. The standing techniques will also help your aikido, as will the fact that you get a resisting opponent.

(Remember we have to stay on topic ;))

Regards,

[darin]

I was about to say, I would have thought you would have trained with them. But then I though, Yoshi was more of a Karateka, so he might not have been to heavy on the Judo. Didn't he teach kids judo?

Regards,

PS Yes, his name is Allen, or maybe Allan, or Alan... I don't know

Just looked him up, Allen it is.

I asked Allen to show us a few judo techniques one day but we never got around to doing anything.

I did learn the basic judo throws, chokes, locks and drills you see in Mochizuki's book however Yosh was a stickler for basics so we didn't venture out too far from kihon. I know he taught judo at UWA to the state team so he probably taught kids judo too. I just never heard about it.

Thing is although we had the karate, kenjutusu and judo elements in aikido we never really concentrated on any one of them for too long. It was always aikido. So I did separate classes in Yoseikan karate kobudo and iaido. Unfortunately at that time Yosh wasn't teaching judo as I would have signed up for that one too.

[wildaikido]

I did learn the basic judo throws, chokes, locks and drills you see in Mochizuki's book however Yosh was a stickler for basics so we didn't venture out too far from kihon. I know he taught judo at UWA to the state team so he probably taught kids judo too. I just never heard about it.

Interesting, we do all of the hip throws (O'Goshi, Uki Goshi, Harai Goshi, Hane Goshi etc) and like I said, Sensei Hans says he teaches us what he learnt from Yoshi.

Thing is although we had the karate, kenjutusu and judo elements in aikido we never really concentrated on any one of them for too long. It was always aikido. So I did separate classes in Yoseikan karate kobudo and iaido. Unfortunately at that time Yosh wasn't teaching judo as I would have signed up for that one too.

I think this was probably because this is what Jan wanted. Hence this is what Yoshi’s students wanted. I mean Branco is a big competition karate person, so I don't imagine he isn’t a huge fan of Aikido. Similar to what you said about Roy.

I think this is one of the reasons I can walk into a judo dojo and fit it, were as they will heckle some other Aikido people. My experience was that they basically said see if what you do works.

Hence the reason I think this sort of judo cross training would help with an encounter with a BJJer.

Regards,

[bob_stra]

To stay on topic... I am yet to see a BJJ technique that I have not seen done by Mifune, or Kawaishi or in Kosen Judo. The techniques are nothing new to me. I would say there may be some slight difference, leading to variations etc.


Paging Mr Fooks....Mr Micheal Fooks...

In the mean time....enjoy this idiotically long thread

http://tinyurl.com/38sdk6

The info you're after is from Frank Benn, from post 430 onwards. I can't load the whole thing because it makes my browser crash!

Note: this is a very old thread....BJJ has since progressed.


Hence the reason I suggest judo to deal with BJJ. The standing techniques will also help your aikido, as will the fact that you get a resisting opponent.

(Remember we have to stay on topic ;))

Regards,

My overall recommendation would be for judo as well. Great standup, pretty good groundwork. With BJJ, there's a fair to middling chance you'd get little to no standing with great groundwork.

Horses for courses - YMMV

[Ron Tisdale]

In Reality, I know squat all about BJJ, but I've been told some of the major differences from judo are

Positional dominance
rules
transitional flow

Hey Bob, I wonder what ever happened to Frank Benn? He was a stalwart on the old rec.martial-arts, and I really liked his posts, even when I disagreed with his opinion.

Sounded like he was a monster in the dojo too, which never hurts! ;)
Best,
Ron

[bob_stra]

In Reality, I know squat all about BJJ, but I've been told some of the major differences from judo are

Positional dominance
rules
transitional flow

Hey Bob, I wonder what ever happened to Frank Benn? He was a stalwart on the old rec.martial-arts, and I really liked his posts, even when I disagreed with his opinion.

Sounded like he was a monster in the dojo too, which never hurts! ;)
Best,
Ron

Frank's still around

http://youtube.com/watch?v=C_zN1aWwZxM

though I don't see him on RMA much. Not that I go there much myself either.

[paw]

In Reality, I know squat all about BJJ, but I've been told some of the major differences from judo are

Positional dominance
rules
transitional flow


Arguably (depending on who you talk to) there may also be technical differences now, particularly with the folks who are focusing on bjj's application in the mma/submission wrestling sphere. Eddie Bravo's "rubber guard" comes to mind.

Regards,

Paul

[bob_stra]

Arguably (depending on who you talk to) there may also be technical differences now, particularly with the folks who are focusing on bjj's application in the mma/submission wrestling sphere. Eddie Bravo's "rubber guard" comes to mind.

Regards,

Paul

Paw, you need to get your butt over to the Geekground and answer my Cyttorak question, seeing Skarhead is AWOL :)

Ron
Yes, that's pretty much my feeling too.

Some very nice judo groundwork, in demo mode

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKq2ZUc2W68

Some very nice BJJ groundwork, in demo mode

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-oAWr4k1jw

There are much better examples on youtube, but I think this gives the flavour. Judo's newaza - AFAIK - is designed to flow on from a throw, break and arm, choke or pin an man, and end. Quickly. Prolonged ground battles were not the original intent?

Eg:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u41omoNO4U

Holmes wrote a good article on it that you might remember

http://www.bestjudo.com/article6.shtml

Like I said, horses for courses. But they are palpably different if you've tried both. Not to say that skills in one don't translate to the other - or to aikido.

Fooks is a good guy to talk about that, as he's Yudanshaka is aikido, blue (purple by now, surely?) in BJJ under John Will (awesome jits) and also has done some judo in his time (IIRC).

There was a fun thread on RMA recently re: BJJ or Judo for SD that may be of merit too re: differences

[Kevin Leavitt]

alot of this is like distilling Chess and Checkers down to the basic elements and then saying they are the same.

Both use the same basic board, have the same number of pieces, require two players, oppose each other the same way etc.

Yet they are two separate and distinct games. Many similarities, but different enough to make it apples and oranges and seem stupid to have one guy line up playing checkers and the other one chess and trying to beat each other!

[wildaikido]

I have one word for you...

Kimura!

Regards,

[paw]

Paw, you need to get your butt over to the Geekground and answer my Cyttorak question, seeing Skarhead is AWOL :)

LOL! I think Skarhead has answered it. Who are you on the GG?

Regards,

Paul

[Aristeia]

Paging Mr Fooks....Mr Micheal Fooks...
hey mate - sorry - just got back from the Will/Machado Nationals + Rigan seminar, so been off line. PM box is cleared.

wrt to everything in BJJ being in judo I believe the standard response is gogoplata no? I don't have more than a passing knowledge of judo but my impression is that while it's great (and there's a reason it's the standard respnse to the "what should I do" question on RMA) it's not as living as BJJ- where new techniques and strategies are being devleoped all the time. Whereas half guard used to be a last ditch attempt to stop the pass, there's now a dizzying array of attacking options. X-guard also comes to mind. The sheer volume of what's around in BJJ today that wasn't there even 4 years ago is boggling. Bravo's stuff comes to mind as well.

Good to see you back on this board bob.

[bob_stra]

Yes my feelings too

But

Oh, Michael....why gogoplata! Anything but gogo :(

http://judoinfo.com/images/shime/kagatojime.gif

http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2797

LOL...let's just pretend you said Rubber guard or X guard or something like that :) because the point is valid.

Anyway...I can't remember what I wanted to PM you about, so I guess wasn't that important :)

How was the seminar / Nat'ls? Has John had enough sense to grade you upto purple yet or what?

[Aristeia]

heh didn't Gi and Ben Holmes go round on gogo a couple of years ago. I'm not sure it's entirely the same technique.

Weekend was awesome, good stuff from Rigan and we had a blast at the comp (although I didn't compete as recovering from hand surgery). One of my guys we've been waiting to unleash for a while on the comp circuit took out the White Heavyweight div. He spent a total of 2 mins 18 secs on the mat to do it.

I'm still a decent distance of purple so if John were to grade me to it I would run screaming from the room. Thankfully that's not likely in the near future, although my co club runner Glen can't be far imo.

[akiy]

Hi folks,

Can I please ask everyone to move personal discussions not pertaining to the thread discussion on-hand to private messaging or private e-mail?

Thank you,

-- Jun

[Ron Tisdale]

Thanks guys for the fill in on the differences. I think you are correct, there is so much growth in BJJ now due to the extreme testing it gets in the ring/octogon/whatever. Rubber guard is sooo wierd...don't think my knees could do that anymore...

B,
R

[Aristeia]

It's actually surprising that rubber guard doesn't take as much flexibility as you think. I"m not saying I use it a bunch but I've certainly threatened it from time to time and it's safe to say flexibility is not my strong point.

[Keith R Lee]

I regularly use it, and it is a big part of my game. Like anything else, it takes lots of practice. Plus one needs to be pretty familiar with all the positions that it connects too. Bravo's book does a very good job of explaining how rubber guard-half guard-butterfly all work together. I don't use butterfly much, but I transition from rubber to half freely.

Rubber guard, x-guard, de la Riva, all of Marcello's new stuff with platas...BJJ, or rather submission grappling, is very much a constantly growing and evolving thing.

[Budd]

You know, my closed guard game sucks, but I usually have better luck working from half to rubber to butterfly. I find I have better luck sinking into Mission Control when the other person is trying to hit me rather than just passing -- and I am the opposite of flexible.

[DonMagee]

It is trivial to take a picture of myself doing any bjj movement, then use the appropriate judo name, which is usually just a description of what you are doing. That does not mean it is in judo. Likewise finding old pictures from 50+ years ago.

What is in judo is what the majority of judoka practice now. I can't say the majority practice anything like a gogoplata, hell most bjjers don't practice it.

[Aristeia]

good point Don. Otherwise we could claim Aikido has BJJ based on those pics of O'Sensei choking.

Also if Judo and BJJ had the same stuff you would expect no difference in how they perform in sports events.

[wildaikido]

good point Don. Otherwise we could claim Aikido has BJJ based on those pics of O'Sensei choking.

I just say Aikido has chokes...

I will agree that tactics and strategies have caused a divergence. I will clarify my point in that Helio Gracie invented nothing new. He is a great jujutsuka, but Rorion claims that his father changed and modified the techniques into something new. All of the techniques in the original syllabus of Gracie Jiu Jitsu can be found in judo, although not necessarily in the syllabus of the Kodokan.

The fact is, Kano took the strength out of Jujutsu in formulating Judo, so all techniques were based on leverage, and Maximum Efficiency with Minimum Effort, not Helio Gracie. I will reiterate that Helio Gracie is a great martial artist.

Indead MMA and UFC has changed the way these techniques are used in the ring or octagon.

Regards,

[Aristeia]

The fact is, Kano took the strength out of Jujutsu in formulating Judo, so all techniques were based on leverage, and Maximum Efficiency with Minimum Effort, not Helio Gracie. I will reiterate that Helio Gracie is a great martial artist.

Indead MMA and UFC has changed the way these techniques are used in the ring or octagon.

Regards,Helio didn't invent BJJ

[wildaikido]

Helio didn't invent BJJ

Is that a statement of fact?

If so that is my point. I didn't make my point correctly before, I was talking about what Helio Gracie did with Gracie Jiu Jitsu.

Regards,

[Kevin Leavitt]

It is semantics for sure to say that anyone invented anything. What I think they did do is breath "life" back into something that was pretty much dead or dying...that is...the art of jujitsu.

They did it in such a way that it could be reasonably acceptable for modern people to practice without hurting one another.

From that we see a re-birth in Submission grappling, catch as catch can, greco-roman, among other forms of unarmed and competitive forms of martial art.

BJJ or GJJ is separate and distinct from judo, aikido or any of the other DO arts the emerged in the late 1800 to mid 1900s. Not so much in the techniques...but the paradigm of how you look at and apply those techniques.

BJJ has it's criticisms, my MMA instructor is a good one to demonstrate the how the parochial mindset in BJJ can get you in trouble. There are many things that BJJ does that will identify you as a BJJer in a grappling situation...many have learned to defeat or exploit those things....guys like Eddie Bravo are proving it.

What is for sure, the Gracie's changed how we train in jujitsu. That cannot be disputed.

[DonMagee]

It is semantics for sure to say that anyone invented anything. What I think they did do is breath "life" back into something that was pretty much dead or dying...that is...the art of jujitsu.

They did it in such a way that it could be reasonably acceptable for modern people to practice without hurting one another.

From that we see a re-birth in Submission grappling, catch as catch can, greco-roman, among other forms of unarmed and competitive forms of martial art.

BJJ or GJJ is separate and distinct from judo, aikido or any of the other DO arts the emerged in the late 1800 to mid 1900s. Not so much in the techniques...but the paradigm of how you look at and apply those techniques.

BJJ has it's criticisms, my MMA instructor is a good one to demonstrate the how the parochial mindset in BJJ can get you in trouble. There are many things that BJJ does that will identify you as a BJJer in a grappling situation...many have learned to defeat or exploit those things....guys like Eddie Bravo are proving it.

What is for sure, the Gracie's changed how we train in jujitsu. That cannot be disputed.

Very well said!

Of course the judo guys will never agree with you, it's just bad judo right?

[bob_stra]

Very well said!

Of course the judo guys will never agree with you, it's just bad judo right?

:D

I still run into 'That's just Judo' on the mat. Like Mike, I no longer talk about BJJ on the judo mat - partially because my jits isn't that great to begin with :)

[DonMagee]

:D

I still run into 'That's just Judo' on the mat. Like Mike, I no longer talk about BJJ on the judo mat - partially because my jits isn't that great to begin with :)

It usually goes like this for me.

We finally get around to doing some matwork in judo, after the match someone will ask "Why are you so good at matwork, when do you practice?" I respond, "Oh I do that 3-4 days a week". Then they ask where. I mention a bjj club. They say "But why, it's just all ripped off judo anyways.". Then I point out I'm better on the mat then they are, and argument begins.

[bob_stra]

It usually goes like this for me.

We finally get around to doing some matwork in judo, after the match someone will ask "Why are you so good at matwork, when do you practice?" I respond, "Oh I do that 3-4 days a week". Then they ask where. I mention a bjj club. They say "But why, it's just all ripped off judo anyways.". Then I point out I'm better on the mat then they are, and argument begins.

There's a 'parable' about falling into holes that your post reminds me of :D

http://www.seniorsapprove.com/autobiography.html

Don't ask, don't tell isn't just for the US army :)

[Kevin Leavitt]

In Germany I have a "arch rival" in GI submission fighter. A 45 Year Old 5 Dan, former Olympian Judoka.

I have a wonderful video that I should post of our first encounter a few years back when we matched up as white belts. Me with a couple of months of BJJ and my years of Aikido training, him with no BJJ and all his years of Judo.

Needless to say, he basically "ipponed" me to the ground, dominated me for the whole match...but had no clue how to submit me, so I laid there, countered, and tried to escape. Eventually I did, slipping out the back door into the rear mount for rear naked choke.

Out next match a year later, I walked up, shook hands, got the Shite, then went straight for my knees to fight him. He asked what I was doing...I said, well you ain't gonna get the takedown this time! :)

When then proceeded to fight and have fun....I forget who won that one now!

Anyway, my point is...He'd cream me in Judo rules, yet we are equals when it come to BJJ and submission fighitng.

BJJ and judo while related, are different enough to make a huge difference in strategy and approach.

Most BJJ guys I know are getting with strong Judo guys these days to learn how to improve takedowns...same with greco roman guys.

As guys get better at BJJ, you have to develop an edge. I see takedowns becoming more and more important in determining the outcome of the fight as more and more people get better and nullifying the positional advantage on the ground.

Watch the UFC over the years...you see the migration in what is working follow the same patern.

My MMA instructor in Germany, crazy as it sounds believes it is only a matter of time before Yoga will enter into the equation taking things almost full circle as have core strength, control, and flexibility, as being the leading reason for someone having an edge.

Discussions with Mike Sigman and Rob also seem to gravitate to what they call internal skills as also giving an edge to things in MMA in the future.

It is a wonderful time to see Martial arts developing and mature! A far cry from where we were 20 years ago!

[Stefan Stenudd]

Usually, I avoid these kinds of threads. They seem not to be that :ai: :ki:... But what the hell, I have time on my hand, at the moment, and avoiding questions is never an answer.
So, here are my limping thoughts, pure specualtions:

I am sure that BJJ is like any martial art: people having fun together in training, enjoying their mutual improvements, and exploring the intricate "chess game" of friendly battle. So, no reason to immediately assume the need for self defense brutality. I prefer to think of it as something in the dojo, and not in the street. Most martial artists don't pick fights in streets.

So, in the dojo, then:
To me, BJJ is a lot like judo's newaza, ground work. Skilled judoka are very good at it, because they practice it a lot. BJJ athletes, too, maybe even more so, since that's about all they do.
A weakness of aikido, in comparison, is that we practice so much - standing, seated, weapons, several attackers, all kinds of attacks... We cannot be as skilled on any of those parts, as somebody can when specializing.
Therefore, the aikidoka should try not to get down on ground, but stay up, where the BJJ athelete is not as trained. Of course, that's easier said than done :)

Also, the techniques applied should be those applicable at a bigger distance than the one normal to grappling - a wrist technique on an extended hand, and so on. The timing should be early, not waiting for any kind of clinch.
And one should be very wary about trying a seated pinning. It is very difficult to pin a judoka, and surely also a BJJ athlete. On the other hand, we hardly practice standing-up pinnings at all.
Maybe the best strategy would be standing-up throwing techniques only, until the class is over? Such as kotegaeshi, and kokyunage on a sankyo grip, and other throws that are initiated at a distance on an extended arm.

Occasionally, we do some suwari-sumo, newaza, or what you want to call it, in my dojo. I try to find the aiki way of doing it, and find it to be very rewarding training, indeed. I recommend it. Aikido is a set of principles, not certain techniques or fighting forms, so these principles can be applied to any style of martial art, modifying it - and, I would like to think, improving it.

Generally speaking, there is no martial art so superior that a beginner of it can defeat an advanced practicioner of another art. So, the one who is the best at his or her art will most probably succeed.

[Aristeia]

Generally speaking, there is no martial art so superior that a beginner of it can defeat an advanced practicioner of another art. Define beginner and define advanced....

[Stefan Stenudd]

Define beginner and define advanced....
Is that really necessary?

Well, let's say somebody who has trained for three months, and somebody who has trained for five years. Whatever :)

[DonMagee]

Is that really necessary?

Well, let's say somebody who has trained for three months, and somebody who has trained for five years. Whatever :)

I agree that if you play by that arts rules, a judo guy will be at a huge disadvantage in a boxing match, etc. But that is where mma type sparing comes in. It allows you to actually see how your skills fair against another person in a very open ruleset that allows all kinds of skills to shine. Then the question becomes, why can a 3 month boxer beat a 5 year tkd guy in this ruleset? (just pulling an example out of thin air)

[Stefan Stenudd]

Then the question becomes, why can a 3 month boxer beat a 5 year tkd guy in this ruleset? (just pulling an example out of thin air)
I have not seen it happen, so I have to answer in principle.

In principle, such things can be explained by the rules used. The one whom the rules fit the best, has a significant advantage that can exceed the advantage of longer training.

Of course, I mean both the rules of the match in questions, and the rules that each combattant is most experienced with.

One interesting consequence of it is that the martial art with the less limiting rules should benefit. Aikido is way up there :)

[Ron Tisdale]

Hi Stefan,

My experiences disagrees somewhat. I think the MA that contains frequent training with active resistance has the edge. If both MAs have this, then it comes down to the rule set...I'd probably give the one with the least restrictive rule set (for resistance training) the edge.

There can be notable exceptions however...but I don't think I can give specifics here.

Best,
Ron

[DonMagee]

I have not seen it happen, so I have to answer in principle.

In principle, such things can be explained by the rules used. The one whom the rules fit the best, has a significant advantage that can exceed the advantage of longer training.

Of course, I mean both the rules of the match in questions, and the rules that each combattant is most experienced with.

One interesting consequence of it is that the martial art with the less limiting rules should benefit. Aikido is way up there :)

I have seen it. I've seen guys with much less training take out much more experienced opponents. They do it by taking them out of their element. I've seen guys with 0 MMA training, walk into the ring and destroy guys who have spent years training just for mma. Why did they win? Strength, aggression, pain tolerance, etc. Look at the begining UFC for good examples. Nobody was training for the UFC, so nobody was prepared. What mattered was not the rules (they were almost non-existant) but if you could force your opponent to play your game. If you can do that, then you win.

This is the area bjj used to excel at. They can make people play their game. People are wiser now, and it is tougher. This is why I'm a fan of judo, most people will clinch with you without hesitation, then you throw them and have your way with them.

You speak of rules, yet refer to aikido as having no rules. While this is true in theory, in practice if you look, this is not true. Can you eye gouge your partner? Can you break his arm? Can you kick him in the groin? If you look, truly without sparing there are more rules in what you can't do. If rules are truly the limiting factor, then it is an easy fix to make the best martial art. I of course do not believe this, I think it is the method of practice, not the competition rules that make a good fighter. judo, boxing, mauy thai, some karates, bjj, etc all have great methods of practice that lead to very useful and quickly developed (years instead of decades) skills.

[Stefan Stenudd]

DonMagee, I agree with you more than I guess you would expect ;)

What you say about "inexperienced" contestants winning against experienced ones, is an example of what I tried to introduce. There is no system of techniques, no martial art per se, that guarantees victory. As Einstein told us, it's all relative :)

About making the opponent play your game, Musashi spoke about this in his Go Rin no Sho. He talked about rhythm - how to make the opponent follow your rhythm, and how you should not follow his, and so on.
The mental aspects are of vast importance in any martial art - also in between them.

About rules, I did not say that aikido has none, not at all. I said "less limiting", by which I mean that aikido is a martial art where all kinds of attacks and situations are trained. Of course, that is also the problem: there is not enough time to get good at all of it.

But if we really look for an optimal martial art, I believe that specialization is not the key. A wide "curriculum" and the ability to adapt will prevail. But that takes time.

[Stefan Stenudd]

I'd probably give the one with the least restrictive rule set (for resistance training) the edge.
Hi Ron,

I think you are quite right about resistance training improving martial arts skills. In some aikido training, this is all but ignored. In many martial arts, resistance is regulated in detail, or very limited in some way.

To learn martial arts, one must try to understand the dynamics of attack and defense. Normally, both combattants are attackers and defenders throughout.
Again, I am reminded of Musashi's Go Rin no Sho, where he says about the feared bandit hiding in a house that the people outside are afraid to enter. They should realize that the bandit is equally afraid of them.

In aikido, many uke have the wrong attitude in attacking, because they exclude the possibility of tori attacking them (with anything other than an aikido technique). So, they position themselves vulnerably, or sometimes they resist in a way that would hardly be done by somebody alert to the possibility of tori forgetting about aikido and striking instead. And so on...

Nevertheless, in aikido the goal is very different from defeating an opponent, so the above is of limited significance. I'm just rambling :)

[Ron Tisdale]

Good ramble. Do more... :D

B,
R

[gregg block]

...

Nevertheless, in aikido the goal is very different from defeating an opponent,

NOT THE ONLY GOAL, BUT MIGHT WANT IT TO BE ONE OF THEM IF THE SITUATION DICTATES!

[Chris Evans]

if he's good, you might get one chance to...
kick to knee,
punch or elbow to face,
knee trust to vitals, or
break wrists or shoulders
...then you'll be taken down for ne-waza, if your one strike did not penetrate enough.

which is why i must resist laughing at karate dojo jiju kumite that limits to point sparring - speed tag with delusions of control, for most --, above the belt only and "light" head contact, no face contact.

however, when I am at a kyokushin karate dojo, I am not laughing -- usually trying to control by breath, summon courage, and pick myself off the mat, again...

the striking i've learned from kyokushin (and in MMA) sparring has made be value developing one-strike one-kill mindset and waza, while BJJ "rolling" made me appreciate all the opportunities to learn.

Atemi, indeed, is 90% of "aikido" or any physical contact.

Osu

go ahead and make that obvious remark about thread zombieness

[Andrew Macdonald]

hi

great question from the OP, and one that is very important for all MA to ask, not specifically baout BJJ but if they see something or someone new then a person should look at their art very honestly and ask how could i deal with that? does my art have something to deal with that. this is how we can find out weaknesses in our arts and ..... isn't that how most of the MA were developed anyway?

if we don;t continue to look and evaluate what happens to our art? it becomes stagnant and frozen at a fixed point in time, which is ok if that is what you wantbut again you should be clear about it i.e. be clear that your practice is mainly for art and history rather than practical application.

as for BJJ, it is a tough one becasue what they have was mainly desgined to fight other martial artists where are most tradional martial art were designed to fight in an unsporting context, you could actually say that about any MA that hs invested time in the sporting aspect, sooner or later the tradional techniques don't work as well and people have to create new methods to overcome defensives and the art changes a grows. this is on reaosn why in contact sports there is very little unworkable theory (in the context of that particualr sport of course)

i think the main thing that people are worried about from BJJ, is the 'shoot' a strong shoot is very uncomfortable and if you are nervous about it, it can actually make you more nervous, however, on an aikido point of view the 'shoot' is alot of force coming to your centre, isn;t this what we train for? watch UFC how in the lower ranks how many times does theattacker end up in a headlock whether on his feet or on the ground. for a start i would be trying to get that head lock and going into the ground his head first (think DDT from saturday morning wrestling) or turn and throw, of course this is theory, if the shoot was too fast, if the fella got a really good shoot which inloves pulling the knees in as well, if he hit me lower that my centre, or dropped fast (i.e. held on to his centre) it would all need tweaking to my technique.

if grapping i wouldn't try to beat a BJJ guy like that, that is playing their game i would try to seperate and get away as fast as possible, aikido strengths longer range and using force, BJJ strengths grapping and ground.

i wouldn;t be comfortable in trying suwari waza seriously, but it would be fun to play with sitting on your knees at the beginning of a match might give them something else to think about.

anyway just a few thoughs

[Andrew Macdonald]

wow just realised how old this thread is, well done on the ressurection, now where's my disco ball?

[brianb]

aikido is not about fighting you are taught locks for finishing and pinning,keep your mai from apponent and evade then irimi the FIGHT should be over before it starts.:cool:

[robin_jet_alt]

hi

i think the main thing that people are worried about from BJJ, is the 'shoot' a strong shoot is very uncomfortable and if you are nervous about it, it can actually make you more nervous, however, on an aikido point of view the 'shoot' is alot of force coming to your centre, isn;t this what we train for?

I don't think there is any one technique that I would try to use against a BJJ person. However, to specifically deal with the shoot, I would probably use a variation on kaiten-nage.

[Aikeway]

In terms of techniques when rolling in ne-waza with a BJJ practitioner, an aikido person should perfect wrist locks from various positions on the ground. Although wrist locks are allowed in BJJ, they are rarely taught, so an aikido person has a comparative advantage when using wrist locks on the ground. However, just like when standing up, tai-sabaki is very important, so too is being able to move your body correctly when on the ground. To do this requires regular practice of ne-waza randori with partners at various skill levels.

[Walter Martindale]

I don't really want to read all the way through this resurrected thread, but...

I think the best way to neutralize a BJJ attacker is with a handshake, a pint of beer, and a conversation about, oh, say, the rugby world cup, or the World Series, or....

[Steven]

I don't really want to read all the way through this resurrected thread, but...

I think the best way to neutralize a BJJ attacker is with a handshake, a pint of beer, and a conversation about, oh, say, the rugby world cup, or the World Series, or....

+1

[phitruong]

I think the best way to neutralize a BJJ attacker is with a handshake, a pint of beer, and a conversation about, oh, say, the rugby world cup, or the World Series, or....

i have heard a brazillian wax job also work too. :D

[Kevin Leavitt]

In terms of techniques when rolling in ne-waza with a BJJ practitioner, an aikido person should perfect wrist locks from various positions on the ground. Although wrist locks are allowed in BJJ, they are rarely taught, so an aikido person has a comparative advantage when using wrist locks on the ground. However, just like when standing up, tai-sabaki is very important, so too is being able to move your body correctly when on the ground. To do this requires regular practice of ne-waza randori with partners at various skill levels.

Wrist locks can work and I do them when they are appropriate in BJJ. However, you ending caveat about "moving your body correctly on the ground" is the most important. That is, learn BJJ if you want to defeat a BJJer on the ground, which is all about moving your body correctly on the ground. Oh the dilemma!

[Kevin Leavitt]

I don't really want to read all the way through this resurrected thread, but...

I think the best way to neutralize a BJJ attacker is with a handshake, a pint of beer, and a conversation about, oh, say, the rugby world cup, or the World Series, or....

yea..that would work well with me I think!

[Kevin Leavitt]

i have heard a brazillian wax job also work too. :D

Ever tried to wax a Brazilian...they don't like it very much...at least the BJJer I train with don't.

[sakumeikan]

Ever tried to wax a Brazilian...they don't like it very much...at least the BJJer I train with don't.

Kevin,
Sonds to me that waxing the hirsute Bjj guy seems to be a reliable waza. I would love to seem them grimace when you remove said wax from the delicate regions of the anatomy.`would the pain from the wax removal be worse than a maegeri to the same area?Ask your mates this question???Cheers, Joe.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Kevin,
Sonds to me that waxing the hirsute Bjj guy seems to be a reliable waza. I would love to seem them grimace when you remove said wax from the delicate regions of the anatomy.`would the pain from the wax removal be worse than a maegeri to the same area?Ask your mates this question???Cheers, Joe.

lalalalal....!!!! um, no.

[Devon Smith]

While it's not on topic as far as Aikido is concerned, from an historic aspect this may be a humorous anecdote, and it happened under friendly circumstances between friends a very long time ago.

Yoshishige Okai received Menkyo Shihan in Hakkoryu in the 1950's. He took his family to Brazil, and later Portugal, where their dojo is today. Here's what I have to quote thanks to him:

We left the deep jungle of Brazil after cultivating the land for a year and then moved to the city of Sao Paulo, Brazil. I entered Miguel Couto Massage School and passed Brazil's national certification exams. Happily, I started to work as a licensed massage practitioner at Sao Paulo. After few years later, I moved to Rio de Janeiro, Brazil and met a judo athlete. He introduced me to Helio Gracie, of the famous Gracie Jiu-jitsu style. Helio told me all kinds of interesting stories and I had a great time with him. Helio told me that his best Waza (technique) is "Dojime" (scissor lock) and nobody ever countered this technique. He asked me "how would you counter "Dojime" using Hakkoryu Jujutsu?" In saying this, he immediately tried to give me "Dojime". I was telling myself that Hakkoryu is self defense. Well, I have two choices. One is "Metsubushi" (eye closer) and another one is "groin kick". In a moment of inspiration, I gave him "groin kick". Of course not too hard, I gave him a break...but I have never forgotten the surprised expression on his face and how his eyes rolled back. I think that I really understood the real significance of "Hakkoryu Goshin Jujutsu" at that moment.


Devon

[Rupert Atkinson]

In that case this is the best piece of advice I can give you. If you want to beat a grappler, you need to learn to grapple. Simple. BJJers train in a different way, with a different mindset and with different goals to most Aikidoka. The result is in a true application they are likely to have more functional tools availible to them. Or it may be better to say their tools have become more functionalised.

This is the only sensible advice. I too had the same question many years ago and so got into Jujutsu, Kungfu, Judo etc. And. at the end of the day, my Aikido is far better than it otherwise would have been. From my experience, if you did try to poke a BJJ guy in the eye or throat, it would just piss him off and make your situation that much worse. Best just get out of the way, seriously.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Yea..and as I always tell folks that want to counter grappling with eye pokes and groin grabs...I can do those too! So, if you want to play with those, lets go!

[Kevin Leavitt]

While it's not on topic as far as Aikido is concerned, from an historic aspect this may be a humorous anecdote, and it happened under friendly circumstances between friends a very long time ago.

Yoshishige Okai received Menkyo Shihan in Hakkoryu in the 1950's. He took his family to Brazil, and later Portugal, where their dojo is today. Here's what I have to quote thanks to him:

Devon

Devon, nice quote...do you have a source for it, I have never seen that and would love to read more about this. There is so much pro Gracie propaganda out there in the world that I am alway looking for other sources that are less biased.

[Devon Smith]

Devon, nice quote...do you have a source for it, I have never seen that and would love to read more about this. There is so much pro Gracie propaganda out there in the world that I am alway looking for other sources that are less biased.

Hi Kevin,

I interviewed Yoshishige Okai myself as well as some other long-time members of Hakkoryu via email thanks to the translation help of a good friend last year. The Gracie anecdote was only a small part of his larger story about how he became interested in shiatsu and later training in jujutsu after his experience with judo. He is still very active at his clinic in the city of Porto, Portugal.

I haven't yet had the chance to meet Yoshishige in person, but I enjoyed meeting and training with his son Ryutaro last year during his first visit to the USA while attending the Hakkoryu jikiden sessions in New Jersey. Ryutaro's shiatsu and jujutsu is excellent, a compliment to his father.

More about Yoshishige Okai:

http://okaishiatsucenter.wordpress.com/fundador/
http://hakkoryu.com/shihan/yoshishige-okai/

Devon Smith

[Kevin Leavitt]

Devon, thanks for the information.

[Aikeway]

How does one kick someone in the groin when they are applying or about to apply do jime? Usually do jime is done when uke has given his back (and is on the ground) to the person who is applying do jime.

[sakumeikan]

How does one kick someone in the groin when they are applying or about to apply do jime? Usually do jime is done when uke has given his back (and is on the ground) to the person who is applying do jime.

Dear Daniel,
Nowhere in the article did anybody state the application of do Jime was Tori attacking Uke from the rear.Obviously if this was the case a kick to the groin by uke becomes a difficult [nay almost impossible ]counter attack. Cheers, Joe. Ps Do Jime as I understand it is a trunk sqeesing waza.

[Aikeway]

It is unlikely that do jime was being attempted. If uke was on his back with his legs apart towards tori who was standing (to enable a kick to the groin to take place), then all uke was most likely attempting was guard position and possibly a sweep. Even locked guard is not necessarily do jime. It's pretty hard to get a submission with do jime when uke is facing tori and tori is standing. The counter is daki age (body slam).

The Brazilian wax job counter won't work on a Brazilian.

[JP3]

On trying to come up with the way to make the story about helio's action work...

There is that one way (which I consider a method for the BJJ learning disabled to pull guard), which is the front attack where tori (not for long in that role), with some hold/grip on uke (standard kumikata will work, as would a standard underhook and head clasp, and then they literally jump from the ground and assume the guard posture on the standing "uke."

Yes, if uke's posture is competent, uke immediately becomes tori for daknage. Translated, I jump in your lap and try to squeeze ya to death or submission with my ultra-powerful thigh squeeze, but you just hoist me, since the mechanical advantage is in your favor (unless good kuzushi, I suppose) and dump with impetus on my back, if you're a nice guy. Neck/head if you're irritated.

[Phil Van Treese]

I'd just choke the guy out.

[Aikeway]

I'd just choke the guy out.

You would need to be highly skilled at chokes if you want to choke out an experienced BJJ practitioner.

[Bill Danosky]

From standing, has anyone said palm-heel strike to the chin yet? Lot of straight BJJ guys will telegraph their shot. From guard, sometimes you can roll for kimura and come up with 2nd control, if you're in a gym that allows it. Or wherever.

[OwlMatt]

The "boasting", as OP put it, of some BJJ practitioners happens because BJJ has a long and well-documented history of making fools out of martial artists who don't know how to fight on the ground. If you want to defend yourself against a BJJer, you need to practice two things:
1) Keeping your feet against someone who knows how to properly use BJJ-style takedowns, and
2) Defending yourself on the ground against BJJ-style grappling.

Needless to say, these are not things you'll get to practice much in most aikido dojos.

[Jaime G]

BJJ guys aren't particulary good at takedowns. IMO a wrestler is far more dangerous. I'll practise a sort of sprawl

[Kevin Leavitt]

Saying BJJers are not good at takedowns..as compared to what....an Aikidoka or a novice? it is relative for sure!

Alot of BJJers are pretty decent at takedowns. Many are former wrestlers, and many are judoka. Although I agree that many BJJ schools neglect to practice takedowns. What is more important is not that a BJJer is technically good at takedowns, but they are pretty darn good at luring you in to a clinch, getting a hold of you and then getting you down to the ground. Sprawling is a good thing to practice and agree it is very useful.

[Budd]

Apply the technique of training grappling in ground and clinch situations against someone that knows what they're doing.

[GShorr]

The main problem with the question is the fact that Aikido is aimed at fights with weapons, (wrist grabs etc) while bjj is related to an empty hand, (close contact and grabbing the body). When I used to practice bjj I used to apply many wrist locks but since the game was different it had to be adjusted to the new circumstances. So my conclusion - in a fight, pull a blade on the bjj practitioner, drive him away and if he dare grabs your wrist in the process - well, we all know what to do next. Otherwise learn bjj to fight bjj situations.
"Dont bring a knife to a gun fight"

[NekVTAikido]

I've been training in BJJ for a little more than a year now, (I started because it was close to home and easier than advertising and getting enough people to come and do aikido with me in a little town in northern VT, I'm sticking with it for those reasons, plus I'm having fun, and its a great group of guys.)

Frankly, in aikido we don't train against the kind of attacks that a BJJ player will use..

To get a sense of what you're up against, imagine what technique you would use if someone threw a net over you (and since you're a martial artist, might as well imagine that net is covered with pitch or glue, a
and has lots of little barbed fishhooks sewn into it). Gadi is on the right track, but remember that BJJ does train against knife attacks too...

[lbb]

I'd have the circus ponies trample him to death. Works every time.

[Keith Larman]

The whole time I'm reading this thread I'm thinking "Glock at 30 feet away". But now I'm worried, what if I hit a circus pony? I mean, geez, no one wants to shoot a circus pony. It's a *Pony* and that's just wrong.

Man, gotta reconsider my entire training strategy now.

:)

[jonreading]

Um...what? Everyone knows that ponies are the first ones that will steal your apples or sugar cubes. Sneaky little thieves. In fact, the pony probably is in cahoots with the BJJ'er. Can't trust the lot of them.

[Budd]

All I'm saying is that you have to beware of both lava and glass when on the ground

[Demetrio Cereijo]

All I'm saying is that you have to beware of both lava and glass when on the ground

And syringes.

Unless you are one of these AIDS denialists.... but that's another story.

On topic. I neutralize BJJ attackers with the Spanish Inquisition. They never expect that.

[Kevin Leavitt]

I hate circus ponies! hate em! they have this cute smug look on their faces as the prance around with there pretty manes and shiny reins. They really think they are something else! Kinda reminds me of a bjjer in his $300.00 Lucky Gi it does!

[Budd]

And syringes.

Unless you are one of these AIDS denialists.... but that's another story.

On topic. I neutralize BJJ attackers with the Spanish Inquisition. They never expect that.

NOT THE COMFY PILLOW AND CHAIR!!!!

[Bill Danosky]

And syringes.

Unless you are one of these AIDS denialists.... but that's another story.

On topic. I neutralize BJJ attackers with the Spanish Inquisition. They never expect that.

What about BJJ attackers armed with fresh fruit? Release the tiger?

[Demetrio Cereijo]

What about BJJ attackers armed with fresh fruit? Release the tiger?

Martial Feng Shui is the most appropiate. It consists in throwing furniture at them (chairs, coffe tables, lamps, chaises longes, wimminz....) until harmony is restored, universal chi flows according to heavenly laws, filial piety is respected and ancestors are properly revered.

Orangutans are useful too... they like fruit.

[lbb]

People generally get more peaceful and harmonious when they're unconscious, as they tend to be after forceful application of chairs, coffee tables, lamps, chaises longes AND wimminz to the head.

[Keith Larman]

Someone has to...

NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope, and nice red uniforms - Oh damn!

[Walter Martindale]

Someone has to...

NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope, and nice red uniforms - Oh damn!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt0Y39eMvpI

Having watched it through now - it's one I hadn't seen - "Tie her to the RACK"

[Bill Danosky]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt0Y39eMvpI

Having watched it through now - it's one I hadn't seen - "Tie her to the RACK"

Um, can we stick to martial themes here?

How to defend yourself against fresh fruit: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piWCBOsJr-w)

[NekVTAikido]

You guys are funny, and I'm enjoying some nice chuckles.
There's a deeper question though: what do you do when you don't get a 'clean' attack? When you're facing 'death b by a thousand cuts' rather than 'one strike, one kill'? How do you apply aikido principals and/or techniques in that circumstance?

Certainly going right to the center is one of our textbook answers, and the glock or knife fits that model. Distraction, redirection, surprise, unbalancing via conventional or unconventional methods, (circus ponies, goofballs in red uniforms)...OK, I guess you guys are dead on the mark after all.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

You guys are funny, and I'm enjoying some nice chuckles.
There's a deeper question though: what do you do when you don't get a 'clean' attack? When you're facing 'death b by a thousand cuts' rather than 'one strike, one kill'? How do you apply aikido principals and/or techniques in that circumstance?

Clinch-throw-mount-armbar.

And comfy chair.

[Bill Danosky]

You guys are funny, and I'm enjoying some nice chuckles.
There's a deeper question though: what do you do when you don't get a 'clean' attack? When you're facing 'death b by a thousand cuts' rather than 'one strike, one kill'? How do you apply aikido principals and/or techniques in that circumstance?

Certainly going right to the center is one of our textbook answers, and the glock or knife fits that model. Distraction, redirection, surprise, unbalancing via conventional or unconventional methods, (circus ponies, goofballs in red uniforms)...OK, I guess you guys are dead on the mark after all.

The thread is not titled, " What AIKIDO technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker". So tearing their face off is still on the table.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Yeah but they can tear your face off as well.

[Bill Danosky]

Yeah but they can tear your face off as well.

Can they? I am not giving them permission.

[Walter Martindale]

I still prefer a handshake and "Can I buy you a beer?"

[kfa4303]

How bad do you want to win? If all you want is martial efficacy that's super easy:

Always box a wrestler and always wrestle a boxer. In other words don't play their game. If you try to out grapple a grappler, without being one yourself, you're probably going to loose. As previously stated, most BJJ guys are generally not the greatest strikers, so having a good 1-2 cross and left hook in your tool box can be a life saver. Don't believe me? Try and hold you own with a decent amateur boxer. He/She will hold you at bay all day and work you over at will with nothing but a straight jab and good foot work. Bruce Lee emphasized this idea with the power lead.
Also, NEVER go to the ground with any one. BJJ practitioner, or not, the ground is a bad place to be, especially when he pulls that knife out of his pocket you didn't see, or his friends come out of hiding and start kicking out in the head while he holds you down. So don't even train for it, or you will do it in real life and it will backfire. As in nearly all tactical situations, the high ground (e.g. standing versus grappling) is best. For further proof consult the Isreali Self Defense and US military tactics, which strongly discourage going to ground at all costs.
As far as stymieing a BJJ practitioner in particular, you'd be amazed at how well simple tenkan motions and good ol' nikkyo can be. Try applying nikkyo the next time a BJJ grabs your lapel, then hold it for second or two, or three after they tap so they can fully appreciate its efficacy. Most of the BJJ guys have never felt a proper wrist lock and when they do, boy does it get their attention. It also makes them instantaneously less grabby. They're so often concerned with not getting choked out, that they forget about good ol' pain compliance (crude, but effective). It's also humbling from a psychological point of view because it is so quick and effective.
Of course, if none of that works and he does get you to the ground, get into full mount, take your thumbs and drive them into his eye sockets and start doing push ups (literally). I assure they WILL comply with great expedience. Another oldie but goodie is to physically bite their nose while in full mount. You can choose to bite it off fully at your discretion. Look at what a little bite on the ear did to "Iron" Mike Tyson. Image that was your nose and realize you're not 10% as tough as Mike. Heck, you can stop a Great White Shark if you hit him hard enough on the nose and do the eye gouge trick, which means a BJJ guy should is a piece of cake.
It's simply a matter of how far you're willing to go. I practice MARTIAL arts. Martial=military=killing/potentially lethal. If someone wants to study grapple-sport-competition-entertainment that's something else entirely and I could care less.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Where is the facepalm smiley?

[iplan]

Okay, here is how I see it:

If we agree that Aikido is a standing fighting system designed ideally to defeat multiple standing attackers.

and

If we agree that BJJ (Judo by another name) is a ground fighting system designed to defeat a single attacker on the ground,

then ~ and perhaps it has already been answered ~ I didn't read the entire thread ~

If I was fighting against a BJJ guy, I'd like to

a) refuse to go to the ground, and avoid the clinch or take down.

b) when the fight does go to the ground, and a skilled BJJ practitioner can get you there easier than you'd care to admit, it's always nice to have a friend standing by, who could come up and kick the BJJ guy in the back of the head and knock him out ~ as the BJJ practitioner is not really trained for multiple attacker scenarios.

c) Even when on the ground, all of the wrist locks still work ~ Nikkio works just as well standing as it does lying on your back ~ you just need a wrist.....


d) answer his BJJ with my own BJJ.

I believe that these two systems are complimentary. In fact, I think of BJJ as Aikido on the ground. They are both effective, and both have their place.

:ai:
iplan

[Bill Danosky]

If we agree that BJJ (Judo by another name) is a ground fighting system designed to defeat a single attacker on the ground,


Judo is not a ground fighting system to defeat a single attacker on the ground. It's about take downs and take down defense. Brazilian Ju Jitsu and Judo are both derived from Japanese Ju Jitsu, but they're only cousins.

A BJJ practitioner is going to have a very difficult time with a judoka, until the judoka gets a throw. If it's in an octagon or ring, the BJJ player pulls guard and works his game. If it's anywhere else, an ippon is probably a knockout or close to it.

Another notable difference is, judoka have to throw into a choke or hold almost immediately or the ref will stand them up. This is because on a battlefield, someone will come along and kick you in the head, etc. So you only get a few seconds to make a move.

BJJ players work a long game. Like wrestling an anaconda, you will succumb in the end if you fall into their grasp. The key is not to. You need good striking, good take down defense and you're right, Jonathan- you can surprise them with wrist locks if you are on the ground, but you have to immobilize them well- if they can squirm a little bit, they will wriggle out. Best take the opportunity to shoot your hips out and stand up, or land some crushing strikes- BJJ players do not like getting hit. Or have your friend kick them in the head, as you mentioned. That is their Achilles' heel.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Judo is not a ground fighting system to defeat a single attacker on the ground. It's about take downs and take down defense. Brazilian Ju Jitsu and Judo are both derived from Japanese Ju Jitsu, but they're only cousins.

A BJJ practitioner is going to have a very difficult time with a judoka, until the judoka gets a throw. If it's in an octagon or ring, the BJJ player pulls guard and works his game. If it's anywhere else, an ippon is probably a knockout or close to it.

Another notable difference is, judoka have to throw into a choke or hold almost immediately or the ref will stand them up. This is because on a battlefield, someone will come along and kick you in the head, etc. So you only get a few seconds to make a move.

BJJ players work a long game. Like wrestling an anaconda, you will succumb in the end if you fall into their grasp. The key is not to. You need good striking, good take down defense and you're right, Jonathan- you can surprise them with wrist locks if you are on the ground, but you have to immobilize them well- if they can squirm a little bit, they will wriggle out. Best take the opportunity to shoot your hips out and stand up, or land some crushing strikes- BJJ players do not like getting hit. Or have your friend kick them in the head, as you mentioned. That is their Achilles' heel.

Not true. I walked into Judo with no background, practiced for about 8 months, then entered my first tournament as a judo white belt with a BJJ purple belt and placed second in the black belt division. This was becoming more and more frequent with grapplers and bjjers obtaining judo membership, then entering the local tournaments. Not too long after that, there were rule changes implemented that discouraged many of the takedowns that are near and dear to my heart...effectively putting the balance back to traditional judoka.

The point is, that BJJers had no issues "doing well" against traditional judoka. In fact, we found they were equal if not more well rounded in competition. The BJJ mentality is "do it if it works, don't waste time if it doesn't". So, while BJJers may not have 5 technical variations of a hip throw...they have a go to one that they have found that works for them in most cases. Most have a paradigm of "study the rules, and exploit them to the maximum."

I can pull up Youtube videos over the last 30 years that show how well the legacy BJJers from Brazil faired against the top players in Judo. They BJJ culture simply see Judo as another venue for testing skill versus lets make rules that will maintain the status quo.

Agreed there are some differences in the tempo of ne waza. I personally think BJJers can learn alot from Judo ne waza. I just spent a week in Dakar, Senegal teaching at Judo schools to include their National Dojo. They wanted to learn how to improve their ne waza. I went over things in BJJ that work very well in Judo. You do not need to move right to a choke, but the fight needs to continue to move forward.

Personally this has never been an issue for me in a Judo tournament or practice. My ne waza far exceeds that of most Judoka, so if I get you on the ground in a judo tournament, the fight will end with a submission. I had no problem passing guard to side control, establishing kesa gatame, flipping to side control, going to mount and doing an arm bar or a choke. Smooth, linear and progressive, maybe 30 seconds to a minute on the ground. I was amazed that the judges gave as much latitude as they did! as long as I was advancing my cause...no issues with staying on the ground.

Other than that...I agree that BJJ has become a game on the ground and it is more like chess than combat in that respect. In my dojo I train the guys in many ways. I'm an advocate of standing the fight back up if they don't advance quick enough, but that causes problems too when the losing guy begins to learn to game the rules and can simply stall.

I am an advocate of introducing weapons at the 30 second mark or a second person during training, so the fight equalizes again if it becomes a slow hug fest.

Be careful with generalizations. Especially with BJJers. On the remarks about not liking to get hit.

You will find most guys that are purple belt or higher have been in the marital arts game a very long time. I'd say more than most martial arts we are very well rounded and most of us came from striking backgrounds, have done MMA or have been exposed to it.

I personally love hitting, and love for that element to be introduced into the equation. I am pretty good at it. I am pretty good at my ne waza. So if you introduce hitting, well I then become pretty damn good...so I personally enjoy the challenge it presents.

Sure, your generalizations might apply to newbs to bjj...that is white belts and blue belts. That is most peoples exposure to BJJ when there buddies take it up and then begin to show their budo buddies what they have learned, which while decent stuff, there games and experience certainly is not enough to represent what very experienced purple, brown, and black belts are doing at their level. Thus, we get the generalizations about what BJJ is and isn't.

[phitruong]

You will find most guys that are purple belt or higher have been in the marital arts game a very long time. I'd say more than most martial arts we are very well rounded and most of us came from striking backgrounds, have done MMA or have been exposed to it.


Kevin, i really like your writing. your martial point of view worthy of serious consideration. you are definitely a budo mutt. my ground game sucked so i need to take up BJJ. it could be fun.

say, do i need a wax job to take up BJJ? :D

[Kevin Leavitt]

definitely a wax job Phi...it is a prereq!

[Bill Danosky]

Not true. I walked into Judo with no background, practiced for about 8 months, then entered my first tournament as a judo white belt with a BJJ purple belt and placed second in the black belt division...

I would expect you to do well walking into a Judo dojo, Kevin, because we already know you are an exceptional martial artist. (Am I correct in recalling that your background is in MACP?) But in this thread we are actually asked to make generalizations about a category of martial artists. For the record, I was coming out for BJJ players and stating that they can be extremely dangerous. I roll with friends who can tap me 3 times in 5 minutes. So obviously, it makes sense to take some prior consideration and appropriate training (which is why I still roll with them).

To do that, we're required to discuss the relative weaknesses in general terms. My statement about BJJ'ers not liking to get hit is based on their UFC performance (yes, my favorite yardstick again). Demian Maia is one of the few really successful "pure" BJJ practitioners (well, maybe Fabricio Verdum and the Nogueira bros. too). And I was thinking of Maia when I said that. He hates it. Top trainers have learned how to counter BJJ, so it's lost the exclusive dominance it once had.

A BJJ player needs to take you down to work their game. Judoka are specialists in take down defense. That is why I say "all other things being equal" the BJJ player will struggle to implement their plan. Once it arrives on the ground, the balance of power shifts, so how do they regain an advantage? This seems to be the original question.

I know you are a Brazilian Ju Jitsu proponent, so it's natural to take it's criticism personally, but I will still encourage you not to. I'm not making any personal judgements. Just answering the OP, which is about how to neutralize "a" BJJ attacker. We assume they meant no one in particular.;)

[Michael Varin]

Another oldie but goodie is to physically bite their nose while in full mount. You can choose to bite it off fully at your discretion. Look at what a little bite on the ear did to "Iron" Mike Tyson. Image that was your nose and realize you're not 10% as tough as Mike.

Hmm? If I remember correctly, and I'd like to think I do, Iron Mike was the "bitor" not the "bitee." Holyfield was the one jumping around the ring crying to the ref.

This actually bring up an interesting point. A few years ago I attended a James Williams seminar. At one point he said, "We all know how to stop an MMA guy, right? Just poke him in the eye or kick him in the testicles. They've all been conditioned to stop fighting when that happens."

I don't think he was wrong. The sportification of MMA has resulted in predictable responses from those who practice it. One should never disrespect the strengths that they have, but one shouldn't overlook the weaknesses either.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

This actually bring up an interesting point. A few years ago I attended a James Williams seminar. At one point he said, "We all know how to stop an MMA guy, right? Just poke him in the eye or kick him in the testicles. They've all been conditioned to stop fighting when that happens."

I don't think he was wrong.

I think the opposite.

[Chris Covington]

Since we are talking generalizations here I'll throw out a few thoughts. I hope they haven't been covered (this is a long thread and I admit I haven't read all of it). Most BJJ guys I know move very slowly and work their way through each defense. In the dojo or even in a rules based sport system this is a good method. Most good BJJ guys I know are like a small stream of water; given enough time they will work their way into the smallest crack and open it up and then the whole river flows in. This method has advantages because you learn to be patient, not over commit to one attack or strategy and it teaches you to see openings everywhere. The problem is that in the field you need to take someone out quick, fast and in a hurry. Not every BJJ guy trains for that. I think for military or police work speed in breaking someone's defense needs to be a greater focus. Then again at the BJJ club I use to teach Daito-ryu out of the blackbelt teacher there submits folks VERY fast. So I guess it all depends.

I'd say the best technique against a BJJ guy is to bring a few friends with you because most BJJ guys move slowly and methodically. While he is tied up with you going through various positions of dominance your friend can light him up. Just my thought based on generalizations I have observed. :)

[Kevin Leavitt]

I would expect you to do well walking into a Judo dojo, Kevin, because we already know you are an exceptional martial artist. (Am I correct in recalling that your background is in MACP?) But in this thread we are actually asked to make generalizations about a category of martial artists. For the record, I was coming out for BJJ players and stating that they can be extremely dangerous. I roll with friends who can tap me 3 times in 5 minutes. So obviously, it makes sense to take some prior consideration and appropriate training (which is why I still roll with them).

To do that, we're required to discuss the relative weaknesses in general terms. My statement about BJJ'ers not liking to get hit is based on their UFC performance (yes, my favorite yardstick again). Demian Maia is one of the few really successful "pure" BJJ practitioners (well, maybe Fabricio Verdum and the Nogueira bros. too). And I was thinking of Maia when I said that. He hates it. Top trainers have learned how to counter BJJ, so it's lost the exclusive dominance it once had.

A BJJ player needs to take you down to work their game. Judoka are specialists in take down defense. That is why I say "all other things being equal" the BJJ player will struggle to implement their plan. Once it arrives on the ground, the balance of power shifts, so how do they regain an advantage? This seems to be the original question.

I know you are a Brazilian Ju Jitsu proponent, so it's natural to take it's criticism personally, but I will still encourage you not to. I'm not making any personal judgements. Just answering the OP, which is about how to neutralize "a" BJJ attacker. We assume they meant no one in particular.;)

I think this is where Mary usually chimes in with her "Circus Pony" comment!

Contrary I don't take it personally, I really don't...I just offer a counter perspective that is all.

It appears the "all things being equal" means within the constraints of competitive rules, so I will restrict my framework to that, especially as it applies to UFC and/or Judo tournaments, and BJJ tournaments.

in MACP training I used to spend a few hours lecturing about the effects of rules on fighting. we would show fights from UFC 1-4 and then later as the rules began to evolve...long story and can't really do this lecture on a forum... Rules matter is the bottom line. The early UFC certainly favored Gracie and Shamrock as they were able to exploit the rules and there were few well rounded fighters that did grappling and striking....there were specialist. As UFC rules put more constraints on the fights such as time limits, weight classes, limit to strikes, refs standing fights back up, and guys began to become more well rounded, it no longer required you to be good at BJJ, but only needed to learn how to defeat the BJJ opponents strategy. Agreed, today, we have no pure fighters in any one style but those that develop strategies that work well for them in UFC. However, those fighters are also specialist at what they do.

That same UFC fighter may not do well in a judo tournament or a BJJ tournament either. Rules matter. However, it is well accepted that you need to be somewhat proficient at grappling as well as striking.

I think the statement that says a BJJer needs to take you down to be successful at his game is an untrue stereotype. Certainly taking someone to the ground is a good strategy if you are good at that and they are bad at that. It certainly is safer than trading blows! Early Gracies in Action videos exploited this lack of understanding of other martial artist to the Gracies benefit!

My argument is that I have found GENERALLY that BJJers tend to be MORE well rounded than most martial art and you simply need to be cautious about forming generalizations. I support that with the proof that no other Martial Art has demonstrated the cross over potential that BJJ. We can split hairs over the relative significance of BJJ in UFC/MMA i.e. 50% stand up versus a ground and pound strategy etc. That may or may not have anything to do with self defense or reality on the street. (although I'd argue that UFC guys can probably hold there own!). We can also split hairs over the significance or percentage of fights that go to the ground on the street. (not important as 100% of all ground fights go to the ground and that is all that really matters if you are in one!)

I would hold up proof as to the adaptability of the BJJ training methods the following: BJJers did very well in Judo tournaments and still do, despite the Judo rule changes to discourage certain takedowns. Judo players do not fair as well in BJJ tournaments typically where the rules are less constrained. Judo and BJJ are not equally interchangeable, there is a distinct correalation that can be observed.

That is all I am saying. Agreed Judoka are specialist in their own right. I dedicated a few years to studying Judo and encourage all my students to study judo as the didactical model has much to offer.

However, the real core issue, IMO, isn't that BJJ is superior, it certainly isn't, but the real cause for success is the paradigm that BJJers typically adopt. That is, if it works...do it. It is an adaptive paradigm that is formed around a framework to make decisions. That is why you see the crossover potential of BJJ. So you will see high level guys studying muay thai for learning striking, going to judo to learn throwing etc. BJJers don't operate on a paradigm that is bound by tradition or style.

This can be frustrating for instructors sometimes when you get guys that need to learn basics emulating the latest Mendes Brothers moves, doing Marcelo Garcia's innovative moves, or going Eddie Bravo...but this is what I think makes it exciting and challenging too.

I sucked at thows (still do), so I strapped on a white belt and did Judo. What I carried with me from BJJ was not the techniques, but the framework of evaluation and decision making. That is the important part that allowed me to learn and adapt.

I use that same framework when I study Aiki. At this juncture, I'd say, I've really developed my own unique framework for decision making and evaluation. The important take away I think is to make sure that framework is not artificially constrained by the limits of your past experiences or martial art style.

For me, it really comes down to this secret...there are no BJJ attacks to neutralize!

A good BJJer has a solid framework composed of branches and sequels, he thinks two to three moves ahead and has five options for everything you are looking to neutralize. The chances are if you are working on an attack to neutralize, he has already moved on...you are behind his decision cycle and working to get back ahead.

So the secret to neutralize an attack is simple...you need to be ahead of his decision cycle and having him responding to your actions. This simply requires you to be better than him within the constraints of the "rules" you are playing by. it is not about the techniques.

This is what everyone above the rank of blue belt in BJJ intimately understands. It is not about techniques, but about understanding the conditions of the fight and simply being better than your opponent at what you do.

This is what makes BJJ culture and mindset adaptive as a methodology.

So if you want to neutralize him...go Musashi on him. Set the conditions of the encounter so they are favorable to you. Put the sun in his eyes. Constrain the situation. I bet you can do kokyu tanden ho better than 99% of the BJJers out there. I bet you can do ikkyo and shionage better than most of them too. I bet you that a Judoka can do Uchi Mata 100 times better and smoother than a BJJer too.

So the secret again is to only agree to fight him or compete with him within the constraints of the rules in which you understand you can beat him at. Don't fight his fight.

The under current is this though....if he cares and values what you do...most likely he will begin to learn it and figure out how to adopt it. His framework and paradigm demands that this happen....for me, this is the real secret to what make a BJJer successful and why BJJ has the reputation that it has. If he doesn't care about it...then he will simply ignore you and not engage you under those rules.

It is nothing special about the collection of techniques or the rules of BJJ.

I think there is something to be learned from this for anyone....have a good decision making and evaluation framework and be open to new things. It is that simple.

So to close. BJJers have been successful in other martial endeavors, not because the base practice of BJJ is better, but because the culture has an adaptive framework that is conducive to crossover. I firmly believe you will continue to see a large proportion of BJJers in MMA because of this. The mindset that these individual have makes them extremely successful in developing successful fight plans.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Since we are talking generalizations here I'll throw out a few thoughts. I hope they haven't been covered (this is a long thread and I admit I haven't read all of it). Most BJJ guys I know move very slowly and work their way through each defense. In the dojo or even in a rules based sport system this is a good method. Most good BJJ guys I know are like a small stream of water; given enough time they will work their way into the smallest crack and open it up and then the whole river flows in. This method has advantages because you learn to be patient, not over commit to one attack or strategy and it teaches you to see openings everywhere. The problem is that in the field you need to take someone out quick, fast and in a hurry. Not every BJJ guy trains for that. I think for military or police work speed in breaking someone's defense needs to be a greater focus. Then again at the BJJ club I use to teach Daito-ryu out of the blackbelt teacher there submits folks VERY fast. So I guess it all depends.

I'd say the best technique against a BJJ guy is to bring a few friends with you because most BJJ guys move slowly and methodically. While he is tied up with you going through various positions of dominance your friend can light him up. Just my thought based on generalizations I have observed. :)

Those are good points Chris and I agree. The typically game of BJJ is careful slow and deliberate. We play our game to someone else's disadvantage. It is a VERY fun game to play! This may or may not reflect the reality of a fight. and I agree that you need to work speed, efficiency, and economy of motion. Correct, not every BJJer trains for that.

As I am a Military guy that teaches combatives as well as BJJ, we teach both. I try to show when I'd use different things depending on the conditions. For example I am not an advocate of the Mount on the street if I can control with Knee on Belly. Mount is too committed if you must move fast to get to another opponent.

It is about understanding the end states, conditions, and effects of your training. There are different decisions that you make depending on these things. You have to train as you will fight!

[Kevin Leavitt]

Hmm? If I remember correctly, and I'd like to think I do, Iron Mike was the "bitor" not the "bitee." Holyfield was the one jumping around the ring crying to the ref.

This actually bring up an interesting point. A few years ago I attended a James Williams seminar. At one point he said, "We all know how to stop an MMA guy, right? Just poke him in the eye or kick him in the testicles. They've all been conditioned to stop fighting when that happens."

I don't think he was wrong. The sportification of MMA has resulted in predictable responses from those who practice it. One should never disrespect the strengths that they have, but one shouldn't overlook the weaknesses either.

I'll go ahead and bite hard on this one...I normally don't do this, but James Williams is a well known public martial arts figure Icon, so I'll criticize....

I generally hear such comments from people that have something to hide or protect. That is, they really have no real solution for dealing with fighting. They will hide behind the trappings and constraints of the world they have created for themselves. Hakama, swords, knifes, and "sensei-hood".

I have NEVER seen a video of someone that makes those comments lay it on the line with an MMAer or grappler and demonstrate their proficiency at that range of combat. They will make excuses such as "I'd have to constrain myself cause what I do is deadly".

I'd actually have respect for the comments if they have actually done that and it worked and could be replicated under those conditions.

Short of that, it comes across to me as a weakness in character. that is, to dismiss and marginalize something that should be respected for what it is.

Good MMA guys can fight. (I am not talking about Tapout Shirt wearing guys).... End of discussion. They have been conditioned to take pain and drive on and press a good fight under pressure. They have been tested. A finger poke or testicle kick, may or may not stop them...we really don't know that until it happens do we?

I know what an MMA guy like GSP is capable of because I have seen him fight. I have never seen James Williams fight so I don't know what he may or may not do under pressure. I assume if you put a sword in his hand that he would be very proficient with it...that I would respect. On that same note, if you put that same sword in GSP's hands...how might he do??? we don't really know do we? we can imagine it...but the answer would be "it depends".

I'd rather see guys in martial arts say something like..."wow, those MMA guys are very good...you really need to respect what they do if you get into a fight."

The comments Michael attribute to James Williams above is EXACTLY my point about decision making frameworks, paradigms, and self imposed constraints....they can get you in trouble if you begin to adopt the wrong mindset.

[Chris Covington]

"They have been conditioned to take pain and drive on and press a good fight under pressure. They have been tested. A finger poke or testicle kick, may or may not stop them...we really don't know that until it happens do we?"

I am very suspect of ball kicks, eye pokes and in general pain compliance techniques used alone, if they do not use kuzushi. I feel like adrenaline is enough to keep a halfway engaged fighter in the fight. From personal experience I have injured myself and never realized it until the fight was well over.

When I was in high school I was in a judo match and went to throw taiotoshi. My foot wasn't down in "live toe" position but was in a dead position and the kid fell on my foot breaking four of my small metatarsus in 7 different places. Didn't feel a thing; I choked the kid out on the ground and won the match. My foot couldn't support my weight when I stood up so I knew something was wrong. It didn't start hurting for a good hour after I got home.

More recently I was in a foot pursuit with my partner. At some point I sprained my ankle (not really sure when). My partner and the suspect went down a flight of stairs. My partner's hand went through a plate of glass in a door and he almost served his hand clean off. It was held on by the inside wrist tendons. Bone and everything else was cut. He kept on the guy trying to make the arrest even with the cut hand. His hand was trapped in the door frame which restricted his movement or else he may have been able to hold the guy til I got there (I don't run as fast as these guys did). Suspect got away but I was able to follow after him until other units could catch up in vehicles and we got our guy. Another officer stayed with my partner. I didn't notice the ankle sprain until I was sitting with my partner's wife in shock trauma.

So yeah... ball kicks and eye pokes... not so much in the thick of it.

Cheers!

[Bill Danosky]

Now we are getting somewhere. It's a shock to your system to inflict or receive damage; hardened criminals and MMA competitors are both desensitized to the negative effects that unconditioned people suffer. I'm not going to tell any glory stories, but OTOH, I have been hit pretty hard a few times, so I can almost always say I've had worse. That can make the difference between something making you submit, and it pi$$ing you off.

There are certainly emotional and psychological effects that go along with violent encounters. Fear/aggression, dominance/submission, fight/flight, etc, etc. The kind of thing Kevin was mentioning awhile back. Somewhere in there is the tolerance you have to sustain damage and still fight back, and that is not something that we are getting from our Aikido training. O Sensei wanted no competition in his training, but it's not right to send people out into the world untested, with the impression that they are prepared.

I like what I'm learning, and I can do it for another 25 years, which I couldn't do with MMA or really even Judo successfully. Maybe I just don't want to work out that hard any more. So I will keep plotting to strip Yoshinkan Aikido down into hack Ju Jitsu through the week, but I think my workshop money is going to tactical CQC training from here out. I am not going to have a physical advantage over many people at 48, so I need to know what I'm doing, now more than ever.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Bill Wrote:

O Sensei wanted no competition in his training, but it's not right to send people out into the world untested, with the impression that they are prepared.


I think it depends on what you are looking for. There are those that care about this and those that don't. I think there are many good reasons to train.

I like what I'm learning, and I can do it for another 25 years, which I couldn't do with MMA or really even Judo successfully. Maybe I just don't want to work out that hard any more. So I will keep plotting to strip Yoshinkan Aikido down into hack Ju Jitsu through the week, but I think my workshop money is going to tactical CQC training from here out. I am not going to have a physical advantage over many people at 48, so I need to know what I'm doing, now more than ever.

lol...the problem we all face! I don't train like I did 10 years ago. I think you have to train appropriately and wisely. You only have a punch card with so many break falls on it. How many do you really need to do after you master that? I don't think it has to do with wanting to work out as hard as you begin to see the futility.

[Bill Danosky]

I think it depends on what you are looking for. There are those that care about this and those that don't. I think there are many good reasons to train.

1.) Ego reinforcement
2.)

Sorry, I couldn't come up with anything else.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Maybe Ego reinforcement. Some may have an actual need to train the spectrum of force/violence process and actually have a working knowledge of how to apply this stuff. Others may simply feel a calling to it and simply enjoy it. Who knows?

[Bumpas]

Because you have only mentioned one of the ten thousand variables for any encounter, one would simply use the "appropriate" technique once the remaining variables were known. No two encounters with any aggression could ever be the same.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Hey Donald, not sure I may get this right, but I'll comment...

There may be 10,000 variables, but for the most part, there are some pretty predictable things about the dynamics of fights. There are only so many positions and things that people can do and I think we can keep these dynamics at a manageable level.

The catch is that predictable fight dynamic takes place within a decision cycle that we need to consider. Where we are in that process matters much more than it is given credit for.

This is what is disturbing to many about that Knock Out Game. The victim never fully appreciates the decision cycle or participates in it to any degree that provides him feedback until it is too late.

The knock out game is on the extreme end of the decision cycle...we hope that we can have more information or knowledge than that in an encounter and we can begin to respond appropriately.

As we move closer to MORE or FULL knowledge...we can make more informed choices and actions. At that point, we don't need to account for 10,000 variables, only a small few that we have learned/conditioned ourselves to respond to. Hopefully in a more subconscious way if we have formed good instincts and habits from our training.

[camt]

How bad do you want to win? If all you want is martial efficacy that's super easy:

Always box a wrestler and always wrestle a boxer. In other words don't play their game. If you try to out grapple a grappler, without being one yourself, you're probably going to loose. As previously stated, most BJJ guys are generally not the greatest strikers, so having a good 1-2 cross and left hook in your tool box can be a life saver. Don't believe me? Try and hold you own with a decent amateur boxer. He/She will hold you at bay all day and work you over at will with nothing but a straight jab and good foot work. Bruce Lee emphasized this idea with the power lead.
Also, NEVER go to the ground with any one. BJJ practitioner, or not, the ground is a bad place to be, especially when he pulls that knife out of his pocket you didn't see, or his friends come out of hiding and start kicking out in the head while he holds you down. So don't even train for it, or you will do it in real life and it will backfire. As in nearly all tactical situations, the high ground (e.g. standing versus grappling) is best. For further proof consult the Isreali Self Defense and US military tactics, which strongly discourage going to ground at all costs.
As far as stymieing a BJJ practitioner in particular, you'd be amazed at how well simple tenkan motions and good ol' nikkyo can be. Try applying nikkyo the next time a BJJ grabs your lapel, then hold it for second or two, or three after they tap so they can fully appreciate its efficacy. Most of the BJJ guys have never felt a proper wrist lock and when they do, boy does it get their attention. It also makes them instantaneously less grabby. They're so often concerned with not getting choked out, that they forget about good ol' pain compliance (crude, but effective). It's also humbling from a psychological point of view because it is so quick and effective.
Of course, if none of that works and he does get you to the ground, get into full mount, take your thumbs and drive them into his eye sockets and start doing push ups (literally). I assure they WILL comply with great expedience. Another oldie but goodie is to physically bite their nose while in full mount. You can choose to bite it off fully at your discretion. Look at what a little bite on the ear did to "Iron" Mike Tyson. Image that was your nose and realize you're not 10% as tough as Mike. Heck, you can stop a Great White Shark if you hit him hard enough on the nose and do the eye gouge trick, which means a BJJ guy should is a piece of cake.
It's simply a matter of how far you're willing to go. I practice MARTIAL arts. Martial=military=killing/potentially lethal. If someone wants to study grapple-sport-competition-entertainment that's something else entirely and I could care less.

Good luck getting into full mount against a BJJ player, and if you somehow manage to get there, good luck staying there long enough to eye gouge or bite. By the way, the whole eye gouging defence is ridiculous anyway: check out this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFYDb9Ki5o0. BJJ is the most martial (potentially lethal), martial art I have ever experienced; sport or not, the techniques are very real and deadly if needed.

The multiple opponent argument, never go to the ground; good idea. But what if you have to? Wouldn't it be nice to know how to quickly choke someone unconscious, or dislocate an arm, then get the hell out of there? Again, if you are mounted with multiple opponents the Bjj player knows many escapes. It is extremely short sighted thinking to just assume that you wont end up on the ground.

If you can afford it, and have the time, learn the ground game! Bjj + Aikido should be very complimentary. Just watch some Roy Dean clips for examples.

[Garth Jones]

This thread won't die!

For everybody who keeps referencing Mike Tyson and the famous ear biting incident - Tyson was the biter and Evander Holyfield was the victim of the bite.

[RHKarst]

Forgive me for making this simple . . . How do you defend? Like any other move. Keep your balance, take his. If he grabs, blend and throw. If he kicks, move then control. If you do not know how to do these things yet, you still have many classes to attend. If they like the ground . . . stay off it and don't use pins that put you both there.

Balance and Ki solve many difficult situations, whether in the street or the board room.

[Richard Vader]

To defend myself from I BJJ guy I have a very effective technique. Before he grabs you make a turn so your back is towards him. Then put your left foot before your right, now put your right foot before your left, repeat very fast.... run, just, run!

[kfa4303]

Thanks for the correction. Yes, Mike was the biter and Holyfield the victim. Either way, they're both bigger, stronger and tougher than any of us will ever be, yet a simple bite to the ear (not even a vital organ) stopped him in his tracks. Just imagine it was his nose. If you hit ANY creature in the nose properly, you will DROP them instantly. With regards to your statement that "BJJ is the most martial (potentially lethal), martial art I have ever experienced" clearly indicates you're new to martial arts and haven't experienced very much. Even the (not so) mighty Gracies will be the first to tell you that their techniques are for sport first, self-defense second and were never intended to be "potentially lethal". While the BJJ self-defense techniques are very effective, they are also heavily modified for street applications where "going to the ground" with your opponent(s) is never advisable. Oh, and BJJ players get caught in full mount all day every day. After all, why do you think they teach techniques for getting out of mount, unless you've been put in it to begin with? There's also a reason why eye gauging is ban in ALL fight sports, save Vale Tudo (I think)? Because it works incredibly well, that's why. You can debate weather it's "noble" or not, but if someone is truly attacking me and/or my loved ones, I could care less. They'll be lucky to be alive after I'm done with them.

Of course, not all BJJ players are of equal skill level either. After all, just because someone plays the violin, doesn't mean they're actually any good at it. There are many people who have been practicing their chosen art for years and years that are just awful. They aren't good now and they never will be, but they have fun all the same. Kind of like the kid in band class with no rhythm. He can't keep a beat to save his life, but he's got heart, which counts for a lot, but to call him a musician would be a lie. Still don't believe me? Just go to your local college, or high school for that matter, and ask to take a roll on the mat with the Captain of the Wrestling team. Feel free to use all the BJJ you want.....if you can ;) They're not even "martial artists", just a bunch of dumb jocks and yet they can throw must of us around like a rag dolls.

Self-Defense is simple really, just be willing to do WHATEVER it takes to survive. That is all. This generally entails hitting a soft thing with a hard thing. A nose with a fist, a skull with a bat, body with a bullet. You get the idea.

Here are some clips of fellas having a tough time in the mount from the bottom position. Can you say ground and pound? It happens to the best of them. So, if you're taking someone(s) to the ground you better dang sure be good, if not, you will loose badly and often.
Again, with all things being equal, the high ground wins. Planes are better than tanks, cavalry is better than infantry, standing is better than kneeling, mount is better than guard. This is also why virtually all Aikido waza end with uke on the mat and nage in a "superior" (i.e. kneeling or standing) position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_mxPgYe1wM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LKADggv018
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaVTmziMNjw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJz8YQ5rXZw (why teach how to get out of mount if it never happens, right?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtkM2SPaSJ8 ("What happens when you get a customer that thinks he's Charles Bronson?" jump to :42 mark)

Clearly you're new to martial arts and love BJJ, but don't get caught in the trap of thinking one art is inherently superior to another. They all have strengths and weaknesses, even (especially?) BJJ. Besides, it all comes down to the individual practitioner in the end, not the style they choose to use. After all, it's the size of the fight in the dog, not the size of the dog in the fight.

[kfa4303]

To defend myself from I BJJ guy I have a very effective technique. Before he grabs you make a turn so your back is towards him. Then put your left foot before your right, now put your right foot before your left, repeat very fast.... run, just, run!

Again, just because they're a BJJ player doesn't make them immortal, or unbeatable. On the contrary, the best fighters in the world today (Silva, Weidman, Emiliananko, Jones) are all lights-out strikers. Quite frankly, the BJJ code has been cracked from some time now. Also, from a purely tactical standpoint, NEVER give up your back to a BJJ player, or anyone else for that matter. Better to stand your ground.

"One day as a lion is worth a lifetime as a lamb."

[kfa4303]

Also, this.

http://i.imgur.com/euLq22x.gif

What did I tell ya? Crude, but effective ;)

[Kevin Leavitt]

Karl Arant wrote:

d" clearly indicates you're new to martial arts and haven't experienced very much. Even the (not so) mighty Gracies will be the first to tell you that their techniques are for sport first, self-defense second

Actually you will find the exact opposite. Most of the old school Gracies lament the direction that many BJJ schools have taken the art. Helio Gracie was adamant about the fact that SD was first and foremost the concern of BJJ. My friends the Valente brothers in Miami are very, very clear about this and it is very evident when you train in their gym.

There's also a reason why eye gauging is ban in ALL fight sports, save Vale Tudo (I think)? Because it works incredibly well, that's why.

No it was banned because it is incredibly stupid and dangerous to poke someone's eyes out. Has nothing to do with effective or ineffective. Of course it is effective, but that is not why it was banned.

Eye gouging is not really a special skill pretty much anyone can do it. However, putting yourself in an effective position to gouge someones eyes...that does require a modicum of skill, hence why the emphasis is on the obtainment of position and not on the eye gouge aspect.

not all BJJ players are of equal skill level either. After all, just because someone plays the violin, doesn't mean they're actually any good at it.

Which is why lineage is important in BJJ and why there is a belt system. Also, the mat don't lie. so, how good you are becomes apparent very quickly.

Just go to your local college, or high school for that matter, and ask to take a roll on the mat with the Captain of the Wrestling team. Feel free to use all the BJJ you want.....if you can They're not even "martial artists", just a bunch of dumb jocks and yet they can throw must of us around like a rag dolls.

Has not been my experience generically. In fact it is the exact opposite, and not because wrestlers are not any good at what they do, it is because they have a very specific rule set and train to exploit and capitalize on those rules. A BJJer has a much broader set of rules and parameters, thus you will find that if you put a wrestler on the mat with a BJJer with comparable skills, the wrestler does not do as well under less restrictive rule set. However, the same is true if you restrict a BJJer to wrestling rules with no experience in that sport. What you learn from this is that rules, or lack of rules matter and need to be considered when you train.

Self-Defense is simple really, just be willing to do WHATEVER it takes to survive.

Its not all that simple all the time. simplicity depends on many things. just because you are WILLING does not mean you are ABLE. I've been studying this stuff for about 25 years now and I have not found it necessarily to be "simple". The SD environment can be quite complex.

This generally entails hitting a soft thing with a hard thing. A nose with a fist, a skull with a bat, body with a bullet. You get the idea.

This assumes that you have a high degree of control of the situation, when in fact, in most SD situations you may typically have a high degree of failure, thus lack of control that you have to work to make up for. Thus, why things are not so simple.

Here are some clips of fellas having a tough time in the mount from the bottom position. Can you say ground and pound?

I no of no one I have studied with the advocates taking someone to the ground as a SD strategy. However, again, failure in SD may dictate that this is where you end up and you need to have skills to mitigate that situation.

The ground and pound fight strategy works very well for MMA because of the constraints of the rules. It may or may not be a good strategy for SD. I had someone ask me the other day how fights end...alot of them end because someone else shows up. Could be your buddy, his buddy, or a neutral party. Ground and Pound in SD when others might be involved may not play out the way it does in the ring. Again, good skills to have and understand, but also need to consider that GnP has its limitations as a SD strategy. I can go on for a long time about how GnP is essentially a "battle of attrition" ...but I think the point is fairly well illustrated.

Planes are better than tanks, cavalry is better than infantry, standing is better than kneeling, mount is better than guard.

As an Infantry Officer, I would beg to differ on this. The reality is that one is not better than the other, they all have strengths and weaknesses and the Leader that can properly employ these tools Strategically, Operationally, and Tactically...that is understands the ART, will be successful.

The same is true of SD and fighting skills. You need to have a varied background and understand the environment and how to employ what and when.

I do agree that all MA have their strengths and weaknesses and BJJ is no exception. We have to work very hard to understand the environment and how our own paradigms, experiences, cultures, training, skills interact in that environment. This is no easy task IMO and is a lifelong pursuit.

[Dave de Vos]

Also, this.

http://i.imgur.com/euLq22x.gif

What did I tell ya? Crude, but effective ;)

Only after watching that 4 times it dawned on me what happened there :dead:

[Riai Maori]

Nike or Adidas

[camt]

Thanks for the correction. Yes, Mike was the biter and Holyfield the victim. Either way, they're both bigger, stronger and tougher than any of us will ever be, yet a simple bite to the ear (not even a vital organ) stopped him in his tracks. Just imagine it was his nose. If you hit ANY creature in the nose properly, you will DROP them instantly. With regards to your statement that "BJJ is the most martial (potentially lethal), martial art I have ever experienced" clearly indicates you're new to martial arts and haven't experienced very much. Even the (not so) mighty Gracies will be the first to tell you that their techniques are for sport first, self-defense second and were never intended to be "potentially lethal". While the BJJ self-defense techniques are very effective, they are also heavily modified for street applications where "going to the ground" with your opponent(s) is never advisable. Oh, and BJJ players get caught in full mount all day every day. After all, why do you think they teach techniques for getting out of mount, unless you've been put in it to begin with? There's also a reason why eye gauging is ban in ALL fight sports, save Vale Tudo (I think)? Because it works incredibly well, that's why. You can debate weather it's "noble" or not, but if someone is truly attacking me and/or my loved ones, I could care less. They'll be lucky to be alive after I'm done with them. .

Clearly, you know very little about BJJ. Your statement about the Gracies "being the first to tell you that their techniques are for sport" is ridiculous and ignorant. The Gracies held Vale Tudo matches to prove the effectiveness of the art in real self defense situations; eye gouging and all. Oh, and sure some BJJ players aren't as good as others, but unlike other martial arts there is no way to fool others about your abilities. As Kevin says, the mats don't lie.

As for your "BJJ players get caught in mount," well yeah, against other BJJ players. Obviously we train getting out of mount in BJJ and also how to get into mount and maintain it. What was your point?

PS-- Every choke in jiu jitsu is potentially lethal. Ridiculous to say otherwise.

[superkizuna]

This is just the thread I was looking for! I believe I have found the answers. The two most commonly displayed techniques that I believe a BJJ fighter will use to incapacitate are the single/double leg takedown and the rear naked choke. Check these videos. These aren't new techniques they are just cool minds.

:( Aikido for Rear Choke and Single/Double Leg Takedown:)

Enjoy (BTW these vids made me really look into aikido deeper)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPGNAFvlWH8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGAM3sES6ss

[Gonzalo]

Best way to deal with it Aikido way!!

If you spot someone with intentions on attacking you, you should read their intenctions and act first( this is irimi to). Act first can mean run fast and faster or just punch the throat of someone or hit him with a brick!! Aikido philosophy is to be in such mean so superior in the art of conflict that you can choose not to kill your opponent and instead give him a lesson he wont forget and will for sure appreciate and became a friend instead of an enemy!

If your technique or mastering of Aikido isn't enough to act in this maner, to save your life just run or hit them with a brick and try not to kill! A jujitsu guy is just a human! A dangerous enemy is just another human.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Gonçalo,

I think your examples assume a degree of choice that may not be present in a self defense situation.

Your strategies may work or be appropriate if you have those choices and objects available to you.

First, you must "spot the intention". You may not be able to do this. Many, i'd say most, attacks are surprises. The attacker concealed his intentions to put you at a disadvantage. He has closed the distance in someway and isolated your ability to make choices. Running, punching or choking are things that may not be immediately available to you until you re-orient and gain control of those choices again.

Good jiu jitsu systems, to include aikido, which is a jiu jitsu system, should train with this in mind. we should practice from different ranges of distance, balance, positional advantage/disadvantage to achieve a better understanding of what is available to us physically. This training should also help us understand the emotional and mental areas that are certainly triggered or effected in these situations.

To study aikido or any form of Jiu Jitsu is to better understand this environment.

[JP3]

This thread won't die!

For everybody who keeps referencing Mike Tyson and the famous ear biting incident - Tyson was the biter and Evander Holyfield was the victim of the bite.

I was wondering if someone was going to point that out.

Try not to go to the ground, good idea. But, if the ground swallows you up, because the other guy managed a good, slick takedown, or you stepped on a banana peel, whatever, you need to know what Not to do while down there. That list is relatively straightforward and simple to learn, probably takes 90 days of rolling with BJJ people to learn what Not to do, and it might be a good idea to know that.

But, to be honest, I very seriously doubt that there is a "Bad Guy" who happens to be a black-belt BJJ bad-ass out there a-hunting... I just don't see that happening.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Agree John, you do not need to master BJJ in order to develop skills to use on the ground. It is just like anything dealing with fighting, you do not need to master any martial art, you need a basic strategy for managing the different elements and dynamics of fighting. The problem is that most people do not adequately develop an understanding or framework of how to do this.

[Gonzalo]

Agree John, you do not need to master BJJ in order to develop skills to use on the ground. It is just like anything dealing with fighting, you do not need to master any martial art, you need a basic strategy for managing the different elements and dynamics of fighting. The problem is that most people do not adequately develop an understanding or framework of how to do this.

I agree, but i think that strategy in martial arts comes during training, in the moment of taking action start thinking is the worst strategy!!
I remember a story from Hiroshi Isoyama, something like a big american soldier doubting about Aikido and asking what would sensei do if he were grabbed from behind by a much more strong man. Sensei agreed to be grabbed and them just hit the big guy with the back of the head.
People say usually " - thats not Aikido!". Fighting is always fighting, theres no referee counting points or stop people from doing nasty things like fingers in the eyes!!

I train Aikido since 2006 and also BJJ since 2011. I love Bjj just because its extremely fun and really makes you realise that fighting in the ground is a completely different world, but its a sport with competition, when training Bjj you learn how to win a battle with rules!! when someone makes me tap with a arm lock, i always think if my life was on the line , i will just start eating is legs in front of my face.

Please don't look at BJJ fighter like they are just too strong and take you to the ground and put you to sleep!! they do that against people that agree to play with them in their rules!! This don't mean they are weak fighters in "street conditions", Here in Portugal everybody knows that guys like constrution workers are the guys to avoid in fighting, they have hands reinforced with many nano layers of rocks and concrete, armed with glass beer bottles and dont use their brains if not necessary!!

[Cnaeus]

just a few experiences of mine on the original subject (BJJ attack and Aikido defense):
I started Aikido in a dojo where the sensei was teaching Aikido with quite the fighter mentality as he was an experienced fighter himself, and thus he valued what he called "effective" techniques over "pure" aikido techniques. This way a lot of karate/judo elements were incorporated in our training. Now, despite his preference to the "effective", he held Aikido principles in the highest esteem, so we were still doing Aikido, even though it was augmented with judo/karate elements. That was until we met BJJ. Then we began playing around ground fighting/grappling, and a slow, painful process began as we saw all our beloved Aikido techniques proven useless against this new fighting style. Eventually the entire dojo were converted to BJJ.
We were trying a lot of things, but basically if you are fighting with a Aikido against a grappling opponent, you have to feel distance and positioning extremely well, atemi is a must, you need to utilize your center very precisely - all in all you need to do aikido at a very high level, and even then, you will not get away unless you have a good knowledge on how a takedown works. And that is, if your opponent is at a beginner level. With more experienced BJJ grapplers things can get exponentially worse.

BTW the only "official" aikido technique I saw against tackling was this (performed by Osensei):
http://youtu.be/98yRuBkUBGQ?t=8m46s

PS: some early post mentioned ki aikido exercises as a possible counter for takedowns. Sadly, in my experience, they wont suffice. Unbendable arm wont save you from armlocks nor will unliftable body prevent you from being taken down. They work fine against forces with constant direction and intensity, but against spiralling or "jerky" grabs where the opponent can change the direction of the force any time, they wont work, or it would require an extremely high level of skill to make them work.

[Phil Van Treese]

.357 magnum since I carry concealed.

[Greg Jennings]

I used to do aikido almost exclusively. For the past several years, I've been doing BJJ almost exclusively.

With the pervasive nature of MMA, I'd claim that the strategy and techniques of MMA, however sloppily applied, are becoming increasingly relevant.

If you are interested in aikido self-defense applications, many aren't and that's super cool with me, a first step that I'd recommend is buying the Gracie Combatives DVDs and spending some time with them. You could then extend that into other information on YouTube.

You *do* need to be aware of, and keep distinct, that there is BJJ competition that doesn't allow striking. For example, there is a "Koala Guard" that can be very effective in grappling competition that'd be, er ah, less effective if striking is allowed.

One of the great advantages that I've found to BJJ is the ability to train at 100% intensity without undue injury. It's fun and it's valuable.

Don't think from this that I no longer value aikido. I do. I miss it very, very much. I especially miss the attitude of respect that permeates a good aikido dojo.

[Rupert Atkinson]

I used to do a lot of Judo and tried BJJ at some point. BJJ guys sit down and expect you to rumble. Just walk off. Ha ha.

[AsimHanif]

The issue is really about training so you are comfortable on the ground or in dealing with strikes. Unfortunately a lot of aikido teachers only have theoretical or limited experience. The value of having extensive experience in a competitive art is that you gain a certain comfort when under stress.
The technique in itself is not important. The ability to respond and apply aikido principles should be part of our training, in my opinion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP_eCB5xNaY&list=UU7iOwd3DzTCiMxtRKOZUN2g

[JP3]

I have lately been coming across much boasting by the Brazilian Jujitsu practioners about their grappling techniques and claims that no martial art would stand a chance once you are on the ground how ever there must be more than one Aikido technique which if applied in that second the Brazilian Jujitsu fighter reaches with his hand to grab would neutralize the whole attack so what is it in your opinion?

... stepping away. Evade, etc. Simple. Frustrating to a grappler, too. Don't get caught in a box, like a bathroom stall (eww... think of going to the ground in your average men's room. Ack...).

[lifestylemanoz]

Wow, big thread. It is clear that Aikido practicioners are concerned about the threat of other martial arts. Kudos to you all. I guess the only solution is to train BJJ. Also, I love it, its just Aikido on the ground with all the same principles that apply. High level practicioners use very little strength and if I use the Gracies (ryron and rener have a great channel on youtube) as an example they have very similar philosophies to training. Also, some of the MMA styles will help, takedown defense etc. and you can weave some aikido in there with techniques like Kata-Ha.

Good luck in your search...

[earnest aikidoka]

Brazillian Jujitsu is quite dangerous a martial art as it's practitioners are not afraid to close the distance, which means that they are capable and willing to take one of two blows to grapple with so for any non-grappler you have only one chance, at best to end the fight before it goes to ground.

However, BJJ has two glaring weaknesses, first, closing. It is not easy to close with a very good striker, especially out in the street where there are obstacles and bystanders who could interfere in a shoot to the legs and space to move. Secondly, focusing too much on ground fighting leaves them pretty much stuck to one on one fights for obvious reasons.

For an aikidoka, the best chance to take a grappler is in the opening moments of the fight. Before the fight even registers in the combatant's minds, so techniques could be awareness of surroundings and atemi, to get the drop on a grappler and take the initiative.

In a fight, the best move would be kaiten nage. This is due to the fact that a grappler only has two opening moves available to him, for all the ground fighting moves he has. He can either do takedown on the legs, or clinch and throw, both of which involves him making the first move. For leg takedowns, controlling the head and isolating the arm should put you into position or kaiten nage. Otherwise, irimi techniques would also work if the BJJ guy goes for a standing clinch instead.

The best technique therefore would be Kaiten Nage as it allows for quick establishment of control and opportunities for strikes to the neck, back of head and collar bone. On that note, if you are able to catch the tackle, you could jam your elbow into his collarbone as he goes for the double legs, dealing pain before controlling his head.

However, this requires split-second timing and if you go to the ground, you lose.

[Jonathan]

You need what you need for any fight with any martial artist: to be able to debilitate your opponent with one blow and to be impossible to take off your feet. Specific techniques are secondary to these skills.

Regards,
Jon.

[MrIggy]

That depends on what his attack would be. If it would be a double or single leg takedown, because that is the easiest and fastest way for him to take you down, just go to your knees and and then either move outwards or just attack his head with punches and elbows or even a choke if you can get a hold of his neck (Gi or noGi or whatever). Even if he immediately gets you to the ground don't let him get on top of you, always get out of the line of attack be it standing or on the ground meaning move sideways or try to get immediately on your knees.

Look at how Kazushi Sakuraba (Gracie Hunter) reacted to the leg attacks of the Gracies, he always tried to maintain a good posture and he never went into a grappling game with them, he played his game not theirs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxnL3TFVXp0

You can even see the usefulness that Suwari Waza or Shikko movement have in that situation, although Sakuraba doesn't do Aikido , in the way he keeps his balance while on the knees. I actually couldn't get into seiza because the stiffness in my knees but after Shikko movement and Suwari Waza it wasn't a problem anymore.

If he tries to clinch for a Judo type throw all you have to do is keep your hips low and push his hips away. Also knees to the groin in that situation will keep him away. Even in the MMA world guys can't take groin attacks easily or not at all, especially if they come in multiples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Byy0oSL53CU

[MrIggy]

It mostly depends on the technique that the BJJ-er would use to attack you. BJJ is basically Judo with wrestling moves that Judo rules don't allow. If it was a double leg takedown the best response would be to simply go on your knees and attack him with punches, try to get back up and in the process use knees or a kick. If he tries to get you in a clinch you have to move sideways so he can't trip you with attacks such as De Ashi Barai, Kosoto Gake, Osoto Gari, or Kouchi Gari or hip throws like Harai Goshi, Uchi Mata, Hane O Goshi or O Goshi. In both cases you have keep you hips low and move sideways (zig zag) to his "blind spot" of flank. Basically you wan't keep him from getting a firm grip and attaining a solid support for his throw meaning you can't let him disrupt your balance.

If if he manages to get you to the ground you have to try to move out the way of his attack, you can't let him get on top of you. Constantly try to get back on your knees no matter how he tries to get you to the ground and try to get a technique in work or get away as much as you can from him. A good example of this fighting strategy would be the legendary Kazushi Sakuraba aka The Gracie Hunter who defeated 4 members of the Gracie family:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxnL3TFVXp0

Off course Sakuraba is a more well rounded fighter but his main strength was to nullify other fighters strength.

[Greg Jennings]

I wonder how many of the folks giving opinions have trained in both arts?

[MrIggy]

I wonder how many of the folks giving opinions have trained in both arts?

It's also depends under whom they have trained.

[MrIggy]

*It

[Greg Jennings]

It also depends under whom they have trained.
Agreed.

My idea is that training, in the dimension that I'm discussing, should have three levels: Paired kata at one end, a minimal-rules-set sparring at the other, and an intermediate-resistance "active kata" and "active free roll" (free to think about and experiment with escapes, reversals, variations) in the middle.

When I was teaching aikido, I didn't think that sparring in that context was ideal. I was working toward a more free form of randori, but I was transferred to another location and no longer trained in aikido.

When teaching, what I was able to push, and did so aggressively, was that intermediate stage. I called it "active uke". Some people caught on quickly, some did not. That's the way of things. It takes time to establish a culture.

I don't agree with everything in this: http://www.straightblastgym.com/aliveness101.html , but I think that it is very worthwhile reading. YMMV.

FWIW.

[MrIggy]

Agreed.

My idea is that training, in the dimension that I'm discussing, should have three levels: Paired kata at one end, a minimal-rules-set sparring at the other, and an intermediate-resistance "active kata" and "active free roll" (free to think about and experiment with escapes, reversals, variations) in the middle.

I like this idea. Especially the active kata/active free roll part. That would help Uke think "out of the box" in unexpected situations. Which is what some people, who have newer actually had a fight in their life, really need.

I don't agree with everything in this: http://www.straightblastgym.com/aliveness101.html , but I think that it is very worthwhile reading. YMMV.
FWIW.

I read it all. I understand the overall idea but as you said i don't agree with some notions, in fact there are some things that i didn't even understand in that text.

[Jisen Aiki]

Are you kidding~ What techniques neutralize BJJ? It will take everything you got, kitchen sink included.

You're asking to thwart the attack of FIGHTERS. Fighters who _INVENT_ new ways killing each other every day. BJJ fighters vet new attack methodology (seems) all the time. They use a high level of corporation in the ACADEMY(Read Dojo) meanwhile they attack with precise killing and disabling technology.
That's cool though you can just neutralize a living breathing culture of attack fighters..Cheers

[MrIggy]

Are you kidding~ What techniques neutralize BJJ? It will take everything you got, kitchen sink included.

You're asking to thwart the attack of FIGHTERS. Fighters who _INVENT_ new ways killing each other every day. BJJ fighters vet new attack methodology (seems) all the time. They use a high level of corporation in the ACADEMY(Read Dojo) meanwhile they attack with precise killing and disabling technology.
That's cool though you can just neutralize a living breathing culture of attack fighters..Cheers

Nice trolling dude.

[Greg Jennings]

I read it all. I understand the overall idea but as you said i don't agree with some notions, in fact there are some things that i didn't even understand in that text.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliveness_(martial_arts)

[MrIggy]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliveness_(martial_arts)

That's actually what i understood but honestly i don't see the difference between sparring and "aliveness". Is there any real difference?

[rugwithlegs]

I don't feel any need to run out to challenge a BJJ guy, nor has one challenged me.

Maybe a better question is does our Ukemi, suwari waza, hanmi handachi, seiza and Osei waza constitute a ground game?

I don't know what I would do - but my best poor imitation of BJJ would be a bad idea. Don't play a ground game with people with a good ground game.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

You're asking to thwart the attack of FIGHTERS. Fighters who _INVENT_ new ways killing each other every day. BJJ fighters vet new attack methodology (seems) all the time. They use a high level of corporation in the ACADEMY(Read Dojo) meanwhile they attack with precise killing and disabling technology.

We eat babies too.

[PeterR]

That's actually what i understood but honestly i don't see the difference between sparring and "aliveness". Is there any real difference?

None - its jargon nothing more.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

That's actually what i understood but honestly i don't see the difference between sparring and "aliveness". Is there any real difference?

Sparring is alive, but drilling can be done with aliveness too.

[Greg Jennings]

Sparring is alive, but drilling can be done with aliveness too.Similarly, sparring could be not alive.

[Greg Jennings]

I don't feel any need to run out to challenge a BJJ guy, nor has one challenged me.

Maybe a better question is does our Ukemi, suwari waza, hanmi handachi, seiza and Osei waza constitute a ground game?

I don't know what I would do - but my best poor imitation of BJJ would be a bad idea. Don't play a ground game with people with a good ground game.
Suwari waza is helpful in a small number of circumstances, but it is just a small niche.

The bottom line is that if you want to be able to cope in a given situation, you have to have meaningful practice in that situation. Don't overthink. Apply the Willie Sutton principle.

In the context of a ground game, you need to look to arts that play there. The newaza of Judo, BJJ, Sambo, Catch Wrestling, etc.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Similarly, sparring could be not alive.

I don't get you.

[Greg Jennings]

I don't get you.
Example 1: If "the rules" or culture didn't allow the partners latitude to use appropriate techniques from the curricula. Like if the school teaches eye gouges, but can't practice them. (I know that that's a weird example, but it fits).

Example 2: If the school's curricula didn't teach appropriate techniques for a situation. The sparring then teaches the students inappropriate skills. Like if the school has no escape techniques from full mount.

Example 3: There is sparring, but the resistance isn't progressive. So, the students end up thinking that they can execute techniques that they can't against determined resistance. Or, maybe they end up thinking that they can take shots to the face without their performance being degraded.

Corollary 3.1: The sparring is only against people of similar size/strength. Like only doing full mount escapes against people your own size. Go try it against someone 50 pounds heavier.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Good examples, now I understand what you mean.

BTW

Corollary 3.1: The sparring is only against people of similar size/strength. Like only doing full mount escapes against people your own size. Go try it against someone 50 pounds heavier.

As a 50 years old, 155 lbs guy I know that feeling.

[Greg Jennings]

As a 50 years old, 155 lbs guy I know that feeling.
53/210 here. Still, when the guy is pushing 300, just surviving when they "superman" is a chore.

[MrIggy]

Example 1: If "the rules" or culture didn't allow the partners latitude to use appropriate techniques from the curricula. Like if the school teaches eye gouges, but can't practice them. (I know that that's a weird example, but it fits).

This is one of the faults in general Aikido training. Of course unless you have a spectacular Uke who can endure the whole Ukemi process and let you unleash the technique to it's fullest intent. This way the Tori doesn't understand why certain techniques are done in a certain way and towards what point should they progress.

Example 2: If the school's curricula didn't teach appropriate techniques for a situation. The sparring then teaches the students inappropriate skills. Like if the school has no escape techniques from full mount.

This depends also on the student at hand. Not everybody reacts to a situation in the same manner and to the same efficiency. Off course one must learn techniques and moves for certain situations but that doesn't guarantee success.

Example 3: There is sparring, but the resistance isn't progressive. So, the students end up thinking that they can execute techniques that they can't against determined resistance. Or, maybe they end up thinking that they can take shots to the face without their performance being degraded.

Again, one of the faults in general Aikido training, from my experience it depends heavily on the context in which someone conducts their training. Some people can take shots to the head without it bothering their performance, the simple answer is adrenalin. But the whole point in training should be to avoid unnecessary situation where someone could afflict damage and you could have avoided that situation in the first place.

Corollary 3.1: The sparring is only against people of similar size/strength. Like only doing full mount escapes against people your own size. Go try it against someone 50 pounds heavier.

I honestly didn't think this would be an issue. It's a known fact that all combat sport athletes train and spar with heavier members so they could get in better overall condition (technical and physical). especially for competition purposes.

[Greg Jennings]

This is one of the faults in general Aikido training. Of course unless you have a spectacular Uke who can endure the whole Ukemi process and let you unleash the technique to it's fullest intent. This way the Tori doesn't understand why certain techniques are done in a certain way and towards what point should they progress.

You missed the point. We practice, with partners, all the techniques of the aikido curricula. There are no techniques that we do only solo kata and "call it good".


This depends also on the student at hand. Not everybody reacts to a situation in the same manner and to the same efficiency. Off course one must learn techniques and moves for certain situations but that doesn't guarantee success.

My example was of no technique to address a situation. Like full mount. That is, the art doesn't address it at all. Like no newaza in Aikido. That's fine as long as the student knows that and doesn't go forth thinking "that will never happen". For example, my primary aim in Aikido was never self defense.


Again, one of the faults in general Aikido training, from my experience it depends heavily on the context in which someone conducts their training. Some people can take shots to the head without it bothering their performance, the simple answer is adrenalin.

Getting right to the point, I'm talking about schools where they never practice with resistance. Him being done unto just goes with it. Again, that's fine as long as him doing unto doesn't have unrealistic expectations.

As far as people taking shots to the head without it degrading their performance, they just haven't been hit hard enough yet. As force scales up, it will eventually degrade their performance.


But the whole point in training should be to avoid unnecessary situation where someone could afflict damage and you could have avoided that situation in the first place.

There, we can just agree to disagree. It is wonderful to train to avoid situations. But, that might not be everyone's goal. Some train for personal improvement, some train for competition, some train for self defense, some train just because it's fun. Many train for all.


I honestly didn't think this would be an issue. It's a known fact that all combat sport athletes train and spar with heavier members so they could get in better overall condition (technical and physical). especially for competition purposes.
*ALL*? Please back up that assertion.

[kewms]

It's a known fact that all combat sport athletes train and spar with heavier members so they could get in better overall condition (technical and physical). especially for competition purposes.

Who do the heavyweights train with, then? It's impossible to train with bigger people if you are the biggest person in your dojo.

Katherine

[PeterR]

Who do the heavyweights train with, then? It's impossible to train with bigger people if you are the biggest person in your dojo.

Katherine

Short answer - travel to other dojos (yeah I know same problem).

Training a weight-up is very useful but you take what you can get - crucial is that you spar regularly with people near the weight you will compete in. Very little benefit to either if there is too much of a difference and if your goal is competition.

[Greg Jennings]

Look, I've been playing BJJ for a while. Long enough to tell you that even to an experienced BJJ player, the whole concept of "a technique to neutralize a bjj attacker" is silly in a number of contexts.

In the context of the current thread...

An experienced bjj player or one experienced in any art where there is sparring, say Judo, isn't interested in techniques. They are interested in a game plan, chains, transitions, etc. They know that they aren't likely to get the first attempt, or the second. What they want to do is keep the initiative and keep throwing mud against the wall. Sooner or later something will stick.

Which brings me back to my major assertion...people that hope to use their art in sport or self defense need to train against progressive resistance.

[MrIggy]

You missed the point. We practice, with partners, all the techniques of the aikido curricula. There are no techniques that we do only solo kata and "call it good".

I didn't say you didn't practice the techniques. My post was pointed out to one of the general faults in Aikido training. As you pointed out:

"If "the rules" or culture didn't allow the partners latitude to use appropriate techniques from the curricula. Like if the school teaches eye gouges, but can't practice them.

One of the common faults would be the misuse of strikes (atemi) in Aikido training. Hardly any clubs/dojos teach the proper use of strikes in their training and to what purpose do certain strikes serve. Some strikes serve to create space for a technique, if the practitioner doesn't know this then he can't perform it correctly and tends to muscle out a move and that's when joints get distorted. In those situations heed better have a spectacular Uke who can react to his "technique" or better start to learn how to perform all of the aspects properly.

My example was of no technique to address a situation. Like full mount. That is, the art doesn't address it at all. Like no newaza in Aikido. That's fine as long as the student knows that and doesn't go forth thinking "that will never happen". For example, my primary aim in Aikido was never self defense.

I understand but also just because the student practices a technique, movement, strategy or whatever doesn't mean he will be successful. It depends on the student and circumstances but as you said it's better then for him going around thinking that it will never happen. What was your primary aim for training in Aikido?

Getting right to the point, I'm talking about schools where they never practice with resistance. Him being done unto just goes with it. Again, that's fine as long as him doing unto doesn't have unrealistic expectations.

The problem is that it almost always does.

As far as people taking shots to the head without it degrading their performance, they just haven't been hit hard enough yet. As force scales up, it will eventually degrade their performance.

I can agree that eventually it will.

There, we can just agree to disagree. It is wonderful to train to avoid situations. But, that might not be everyone's goal. Some train for personal improvement, some train for competition, some train for self defense, some train just because it's fun. Many train for all.

It doesn't have to be a definite goal. You can just add it to the training of any of those particular groups. Just an aspect like any other.

*ALL*? Please back up that assertion.

Check out the training of professional athletes, for instance boxers who went up in the weight rank, mma fighters who changed weight ranks from lower to heavier ranks, kick boxers especially Thai kick boxers who fought out of Thailand with heavier opponents. Amateur athletes, Olympians, like wrestlers, boxers, Judo guys, Taekwondo guys. I have a met a certain number of those type of athletes and all of them had training with heavier opponents. It mostly helps them to develop strength and endurance also a sense of caution, especially for the strikers, because they know that their opponent has more power in their strike, be it punching or kicking. And when i say heavier opponents i don't necessarily mean the "David and Goliath" situation because that can be counter productive.

[Greg Jennings]

My main aim in aikido training was Budo, not self defense. The self defense was tertiary. My BJJ training today isn't primarily about self defense. Still tertiary.

I was talking about large size/weight differences. I roll a lot with a guy over 300 who's pretty athletic. As of this morning, I'm 201.6. I'm also, at 53, over 10 years older than the guy. It makes a huge difference. HUGE. Pardon the pun.

[Greg Jennings]

One more post here, then I'm going to leave it alone.

I went back and re-read this thread from the beginning to re-take in the evolution of our perception of BJJ. It is interesting to note that at the beginning of this thread, way back when, BJJ was, largely, BJJ. Today, I can tell you that it is a different animal. It is now a fusion of BJJ, Judo, Sambo, wrestling and more. It's a living, breathing, constantly morphing, thing.

[Jisen Aiki]

I'm just wondering where my post went

[MrIggy]

My main aim in aikido training was Budo, not self defense. The self defense was tertiary. My BJJ training today isn't primarily about self defense. Still tertiary.

Well, one aspect of Budo is self defense. I guess it's up to the practitioner to chose what will his main goal be.

I was talking about large size/weight differences. I roll a lot with a guy over 300 who's pretty athletic. As of this morning, I'm 201.6. I'm also, at 53, over 10 years older than the guy. It makes a huge difference. HUGE. Pardon the pun.

Didn't get it. As for the actual difference i am sure it is huge, how tall is the guy?

[MrIggy]

It is now a fusion of BJJ, Judo, Sambo, wrestling and more.

It's always been a fusion of Judo, Sambo, wrestling and what-not. Judo is a fusion of jujutsu techniques, wrestling and Sumo techniques. It's only normal for BJJ practitioners to add elements from other arts. The Gracie family members where taught Judo and many of them had black belts in Judo, Sambo and other martial arts. From what i recall Rickson Gracie has black belts, besides BJJ, in Judo, Sambo, Aikido and also has trained in various styles of wrestling. Let's not forget about people like Osvaldo Alves who openly states how much Judo has helped broaden his knowledge of BJJ.

http://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighters/osvaldo-alves-facts-and-bio

That's why Aikido people should practice and spar much more diligently, they could learn a lot more and achieve faster progress. that would help them get a better understanding of movements, techniques and the rest.

[Cynrod]

It's always been a fusion of Judo, Sambo, wrestling and what-not. Judo is a fusion of jujutsu techniques, wrestling and Sumo techniques. It's only normal for BJJ practitioners to add elements from other arts. The Gracie family members where taught Judo and many of them had black belts in Judo, Sambo and other martial arts. From what i recall Rickson Gracie has black belts, besides BJJ, in Judo, Sambo, Aikido and also has trained in various styles of wrestling. Let's not forget about people like Osvaldo Alves who openly states how much Judo has helped broaden his knowledge of BJJ.

http://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighters/osvaldo-alves-facts-and-bio

That's why Aikido people should practice and spar much more diligently, they could learn a lot more and achieve faster progress. that would help them get a better understanding of movements, techniques and the rest.

Osvaldo Alves was Sergio Penhas instructor in Judo before Sergio's transition to BJJ.

Tomiki Aikido is one of the Aikido style that do sparring.

Rickson Gracie quoted: "If size matters, then the elephant will be the king of the jungle". He proved he's right by fighting some of the best fighters out there and submitting them in BJJ.

To the OP: Train in BJJ also so that you'll know what to do when challenged by a BJJ practitioner. Most of the BJJ Universities or Academies don't allow rudeness or egoistic practitioners. They kick-out airheads and bully people instantly off the mats and out of the Academy when they see one. Believe me as I've seen a lot of them.

In Aikido we train mostly in pre-set techniques and you know what's coming up at you. Like all muscle memory? In real fights the uke will not leave his hands in front of you after he threw a punch. You won't see those shomenuchi and yokomenuchi just like what you do in the dojo. You will also see a different types of katadori and katatedori from a trained martial artist of different styles.

In BJJ we train and roll on the mats as if we are playing chess. We have to solve the puzzles and we have to be at least one move ahead of the opponents. It's not muscle memory and it's not pre-sets, but solving problems or formula.

Please give BJJ a try as most BJJ places offers free classes and they always have an extra clean gi that you can wear for the trial class. I will give you a very serious precautions before tryng a class or two. "Once you trained BJJ and rolled on the mats you'll never be back" :rolleyes: .

[Greg Jennings]

It's always been a fusion of Judo, Sambo, wrestling and what-not. Judo is a fusion of jujutsu techniques, wrestling and Sumo techniques. It's only normal for BJJ practitioners to add elements from other arts. The Gracie family members where taught Judo and many of them had black belts in Judo, Sambo and other martial arts. From what i recall Rickson Gracie has black belts, besides BJJ, in Judo, Sambo, Aikido and also has trained in various styles of wrestling. Let's not forget about people like Osvaldo Alves who openly states how much Judo has helped broaden his knowledge of BJJ.

http://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighters/osvaldo-alves-facts-and-bio

That's why Aikido people should practice and spar much more diligently, they could learn a lot more and achieve faster progress. that would help them get a better understanding of movements, techniques and the rest.
My point here is that it's not a static art. It's constantly evolving. Sometimes it evolves in a circle, but it is always evolving. ;) Very few people are attempting to preserve someone else's take on the art.

As an aside...
Due to my schedule (not my preference), I primarily hit no-gi classes. I don't think that we've done a main stream BJJ technique in a couple of weeks. Everything has been takedowns from mainstream wrestling. Of course, that's just the convenient source of those techniques...they are probably almost as old as humans walking upright...there are only so many ways to wrestle.

[Ketsan]

Brazillian Jujitsu is quite dangerous a martial art as it's practitioners are not afraid to close the distance, which means that they are capable and willing to take one of two blows to grapple with so for any non-grappler you have only one chance, at best to end the fight before it goes to ground.

However, BJJ has two glaring weaknesses, first, closing. It is not easy to close with a very good striker, especially out in the street where there are obstacles and bystanders who could interfere in a shoot to the legs and space to move. Secondly, focusing too much on ground fighting leaves them pretty much stuck to one on one fights for obvious reasons.

For an aikidoka, the best chance to take a grappler is in the opening moments of the fight. Before the fight even registers in the combatant's minds, so techniques could be awareness of surroundings and atemi, to get the drop on a grappler and take the initiative.

In a fight, the best move would be kaiten nage. This is due to the fact that a grappler only has two opening moves available to him, for all the ground fighting moves he has. He can either do takedown on the legs, or clinch and throw, both of which involves him making the first move. For leg takedowns, controlling the head and isolating the arm should put you into position or kaiten nage. Otherwise, irimi techniques would also work if the BJJ guy goes for a standing clinch instead.

The best technique therefore would be Kaiten Nage as it allows for quick establishment of control and opportunities for strikes to the neck, back of head and collar bone. On that note, if you are able to catch the tackle, you could jam your elbow into his collarbone as he goes for the double legs, dealing pain before controlling his head.

However, this requires split-second timing and if you go to the ground, you lose.

There are no techniques in Aikido. Aikido is the technique.

[MrIggy]

Osvaldo Alves was Sergio Penhas instructor in Judo before Sergio's transition to BJJ.

On the site it says that Penha trained in Judo and BJJ simultaneously, which actually confirms my previous post that BJJ is a Judo, Sambo, wrestling and what-not.

Tomiki Aikido is one of the Aikido style that do sparring.

Yes, i know that. Unfortunately many techniques these days are not allowed in competitions.

Rickson Gracie quoted: "If size matters, then the elephant will be the king of the jungle". He proved he's right by fighting some of the best fighters out there and submitting them in BJJ.

Rickson fought only one guy that can considered a "good" fighter, that was Masakatsu Funaki, under special rules.

To the OP: Train in BJJ also so that you'll know what to do when challenged by a BJJ practitioner. Most of the BJJ Universities or Academies don't allow rudeness or egoistic practitioners. They kick-out airheads and bully people instantly off the mats and out of the Academy when they see one. Believe me as I've seen a lot of them.

I agree, cross training is a good idea, that's how arts good developed in the first place.

In Aikido we train mostly in pre-set techniques and you know what's coming up at you. Like all muscle memory? In real fights the uke will not leave his hands in front of you after he threw a punch. You won't see those shomenuchi and yokomenuchi just like what you do in the dojo. You will also see a different types of katadori and katatedori from a trained martial artist of different styles.

On higher levels of Aikido training, 3 kyu and higher, hands aren't supposed to be left out either. The intensity of training should be gradually increased.

In BJJ we train and roll on the mats as if we are playing chess. We have to solve the puzzles and we have to be at least one move ahead of the opponents. It's not muscle memory and it's not pre-sets, but solving problems or formula.

Yes it is, everything is muscle memory or in other words a reflex. That's the whole point for the repetition of techniques, positions, transitions, strategies etc.

[MrIggy]

My point here is that it's not a static art. It's constantly evolving. Sometimes it evolves in a circle, but it is always evolving. ;) Very few people are attempting to preserve someone else's take on the art.

The evolution of BJJ is debatable, especially in recent years, but honestly i don't fell like debating about it, to much time would be involved. There will always be the mainstream lines, adding bits and pieces doesn't change the fundamental idea of an art. Changing the philosophy does that. Like the difference in certain Karate or kick boxing styles.

Due to my schedule (not my preference), I primarily hit no-gi classes. I don't think that we've done a main stream BJJ technique in a couple of weeks. Everything has been takedowns from mainstream wrestling. Of course, that's just the convenient source of those techniques...they are probably almost as old as humans walking upright...there are only so many ways to wrestle.

Those are probably the same techniques done the same way as before some 2000 or 3000 years, judging by murals in Egypt.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Yes it is, everything is muscle memory or in other words a reflex. That's the whole point for the repetition of techniques, positions, transitions, strategies etc.
No, it is not.

Do you even roll?

[MrIggy]

No, it is not.

Do you even roll?

How do you think your body develops the moves you learn in practice? It memorises them and enhances the memory every time you learn a new move, transition or whatever. When you make a mistake in practice, be it getting caught in an armbar, your body also remembers that is not a safe position to be in and next time you avoid that position. Why do you think people need experience? Because with experience they enhance their overall reflex memory and can adjust more easily to unexpected positions because the probability is that they have already been in that or similar positions.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Jiu Jitsu is not about accumulation and memorization (which happens in the brain, not in the muscles) of techniques/positions/moves, et c.and then recognizing and appliying them when rolling.

[MrIggy]

Jiu Jitsu is not about accumulation and memorization (which happens in the brain, not in the muscles) of techniques/positions/moves, et c.and then recognizing and appliying them when rolling.

Nobody said it happens "in the muscles" rather the muscles are the stimulus for the accumulations of memory. The reason it's called muscle memory is because, based on the muscles that we use to create the memory, is how the information will be stored in the brain as memory.

What would be your explanation for BJJ?

[Demetrio Cereijo]

What would be your explanation for BJJ?
Is a combination of body alignment, weight distribuition, feeling the flow, balance, OODA loop management... skills. Techniques are how these skills manifest.

[MrIggy]

Is a combination of body alignment, weight distribuition, feeling the flow, balance, OODA loop management... skills. Techniques are how these skills manifest.

And all those skills come through experience which of course includes "muscle memory" which is the main stimulus for their development.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Whatever

It seems to me you've never had direct experience in this field, but I could be wrong. So, again: Do you even roll? How much jits have you done?

[MrIggy]

Whatever

It seems to me you've never had direct experience in this field, but I could be wrong. So, again: Do you even roll? How much jits have you done?

Not much, i didn't have the time unfortunately, sparring with a couple of friends to see how things go on the ground. From what i have encountered it all comes down to experience, which off course includes muscle memory as the main stimulus for their development. How much experience do you have?

[rugwithlegs]

My own experience was with a Judo Shodan who joined our Aikido school.

What I liked with ground work:
1. If I was in a position where I could relax, and my partner couldn't, I was going to win. We say it all the time in Aikido, but the feeling was so obvious when I could just relax on top and take a rest while my partner got exhausted. Relaxation as power, who knew?
2. Millions of techniques, but only a handful of relationships.
3. One technique becomes impossible, another becomes easy. Twisting up and down, straightening or entering, working the periphery, working the core. The main Judo basics seemed so logical, and a great yin/yang exploration.
4. I was always told with randori to just take what technique is offered rather than what I wanted. As I got more calm and more relaxed and Uke struggled, I could take a nice long time to see what just developed. Instead of a split second to perceive what was offered, I could take a minute to really work in this mindset.

The mental skills just seemed so much the same, physically it was more demanding. The approach to the techniques had me learn to codify what I was doing in Aikido and explore variations. I also learned to let my brain explore Aikido laying down instead of insisting Aikido was only sitting.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

How much experience do you have?
In and out for the last ten years, with some Judo in the middle. I'm the eternal blue belt.

Regarding the importance of "mucle memory", for instance, last friday I pulled this kneebar (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UYJRNqW5Ao) rolling with another blue belt (and Judo blackblelt), however, I've never been formally taugth it, never drilled it, I've seen it on video some time ago and it happened. I was simply going with the flow.

So I don't deny the value of drilling and repetition, but in my experience, that is not what JJ, or Aikido, is about. I agree more with what Mr. Hillson has wrote: relaxation as power, a handful of relationships, ying/yang exploration...

[kewms]

The more experience you have, the less specific techniques matter. The idea that a single technique could "neutralize" a BJJ attacker, or any other competent martial artist, is ridiculous anyway.

I wouldn't say that has much to do with "muscle memory" or "reflex" though. It isn't that you can perform a technique "by reflex." Rather, you learn to structure your body in a way that makes techniques available to you, and less available to the attacker.

At the very highest levels, this is O Sensei's attackers feeling "frozen" in place, and unable to move at all.

Katherine

[Star Dragon]

A BJJ fighter typically comes shooting in with a tackle. Here is some useful general advice on how to deal with this kind of attack:

http://www.pfctraining.com/pfc-training-may-2014-newsletter/

The article emphasizes four key elements:


Get your hips in (but using Aikido, where we don't set force against force, you might want to get off-line on an angle; anyway, never step back in a straight line!).
Create a barrier with your forearm (hello, irimi-nage).
Control the opponent's head and drive it off-line, up or down (irimi-nage again).
Create an angle (Aikido is good at that).


So, different versions of irimi-nage would seem to be useful, especially "short" ones (like the direct one that Steven Seagal shows in many of his movies). Depending on the circumstances, Kaiten-nage and Ikkyo could be appropriate too.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

You can see what the article is describing in this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2TFw7rXM3E and I would say the attackers are playing the role of "angry dude who has never trained takedowns"

[MrIggy]

Regarding the importance of "mucle memory", for instance, last friday I pulled this kneebar (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UYJRNqW5Ao) rolling with another blue belt (and Judo blackblelt), however, I've never been formally taugth it, never drilled it, I've seen it on video some time ago and it happened. I was simply going with the flow.

I did the same thing with the basic tripod sweep (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p-2qBPL9tM), saw it on youtube and did it in sparring. But the point is that my body was in that position a couple of times earlier and i just didn't know what to do. When i saw the video i thought to myself "I could try and do this.". The next time my body was again in the same position and this time i knew what to do and i did it. I had to at least see the video and be exposed to the technique like you in order for it to come to my mind.

So I don't deny the value of drilling and repetition, but in my experience, that is not what JJ, or Aikido, is about. I agree more with what Mr. Hillson has wrote: relaxation as power, a handful of relationships, ying/yang exploration...

I also agree with what he wrote but the fact is, without the correct muscle memory and repetition you simply can't advance in certain areas of your art. Your moves have to become automatic because only then can you achieve the true flow and you body can get familiar with all the aspects. Then you can perceive the true meaning of relaxation.

It's not just grappling arts that are like that, many boxers and kick boxers had flow in their movement. Look at Muhammad Ali, Floyd Mayweather, Roy Jones Jr. etc. and they where all "labeled" gym rats. For Ali it was said that he knew all the tricks in boxing.

Off course i forgot to mention that it also depends on what you wan't from your training.

[MrIggy]

The more experience you have, the less specific techniques matter. The idea that a single technique could "neutralize" a BJJ attacker, or any other competent martial artist, is ridiculous anyway.

It depends on the situation. Many MMA matches have been decided on one technique, be it a punch, kick or throw.

Rather, you learn to structure your body in a way that makes techniques available to you, and less available to the attacker.


And that is also a reflex just with the whole body which off course needs a lot of practice to achieve such a state.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

I did the same thing with the basic tripod sweep (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p-2qBPL9tM), saw it on youtube and did it in sparring. But the point is that my body was in that position a couple of times earlier and i just didn't know what to do. When i saw the video i thought to myself "I could try and do this.". The next time my body was again in the same position and this time i knew what to do and i did it. I had to at least see the video and be exposed to the technique like you in order for it to come to my mind.
See, no "muscle memory" needed. No need to endless kata repetition until the specific movement is ingrained.Mirror neurons (http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/whats-so-special-about-mirror-neurons/) working plus aliveness training leads to "Takemusu Jits".

I also agree with what he wrote but the fact is, without the correct muscle memory and repetition you simply can't advance in certain areas of your art. Your moves have to become automatic because only then can you achieve the true flow and you body can get familiar with all the aspects. Then you can perceive the true meaning of relaxation.
Well, let's agree to disagree for concepts like "muscle memory", "true flow" or "true meaning of relaxation" mean different things to us both, or so it seems.

Off course i forgot to mention that it also depends on what you want from your training.
In my case, JJ is a mere "technology of the self" in a, more or less, Foucaltian sense. I'm not really on tackling random aikido people in the streets.

[kewms]

It depends on the situation. Many MMA matches have been decided on one technique, be it a punch, kick or throw.

Sure. When you're preparing for a competition, you spend hours identifying your opponent's weaknesses and deciding how to exploit them. Same with judo. Same with chess, for that matter.

Which just shows how different competition is from any kind of real situation. Planning for a known opponent is very different from dealing with a random attacker who happens to train in a given art.

And if you spend three rounds trying to get an opening for that one deciding technique, can you really be said to have "neutralized" your attacker?

(I know, I know, Ronda Rousey armbar specials. But even those don't work on everyone.)

Katherine

[kewms]

And that is also a reflex just with the whole body which off course needs a lot of practice to achieve such a state.

"Reflex" has a very specific medical definition. This isn't it.

Katherine

[MrIggy]

See, no "muscle memory" needed. No need to endless kata repetition until the specific movement is ingrained.Mirror neurons (http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/whats-so-special-about-mirror-neurons/) working plus aliveness training leads to "Takemusu Jits".

The muscle memory was in my body position, the sweep worked mostly because i was lucky that my partner didn't expect it and again i had to at least see the sweep for it to work. It wasn't an act of pure flow. As for the mirror neurons theory i do know certain aspects can be developed through "action understanding" because i have actually seen people do it, in my case certain techniques they only saw once, the problem is that the effect doesn't last long without repetition and experience because they tend to loose the initial concentration and understanding of how they actually.

Well, let's agree to disagree for concepts like "muscle memory", "true flow" or "true meaning of relaxation" mean different things to us both, or so it seems.

Yes, i also think we can agree to disagree.

[MrIggy]

Sure. When you're preparing for a competition, you spend hours identifying your opponent's weaknesses and deciding how to exploit them. Same with judo. Same with chess, for that matter.

Yes, and they also know their strengths and still surprises happen. For instance Mirko Filipović, boxer and kick boxer, got knocked out by his opponent with a high kick to the head in the first round, which is actually his on specialty. His opponent was a pure grappler.

And if you spend three rounds trying to get an opening for that one deciding technique, can you really be said to have "neutralized" your attacker?

That depends on circumstances. If your life is in jeopardy and you survive but the attacker runs away can you say that you neutralized him or simply neutralized the attack?