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Andre Cognard Shihan in the USA - Cognard Shihan 8th Dan in CA, Orange County Aiki Kai June 28-July 1
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Andre Cognard Shihan in the USA - Cognard Shihan 8th Dan in CA, Orange County Aiki Kai June 28-July 1
wildaikido
09-05-2007, 09:04 AM
Hopefully we know about the scientific method (if not they didn’t, they do now :D) But my point was you don't go out drop a brick and a feather and say, heavy things fall faster than light thing because that is what you observe. Especially when Galileo has already proved that this Greek notion is wrong. We should always start by learning the lessons of those who came before us. Then we will develop past them.
I said you may be the person that would say the negative comment about me saying I could handle a BJJer. I don't know you so I can't say you’re that person. You say you aren't, so I believe you. But then Darin said,
You missed my point. And yes even big strong guys like you do get mugged or worse. I don't think its something you can be too confident about. Self defense Is about common sense and luck.
So someone somewhere at some point will say it.
Like I said before, the best method to deal with a BJJer is to knock him out with one strike! But obviously without the training you will never succeed. Could a karateka do it? I would love to see Kanazawa in his prime have to defend himself against a BJJer on the street. It would be interesting to see. Kanazawa has the sort of spirit you would expect to be successful, with the goods to back it up.
If you want a sure fire method, that will be more of a struggle, and will take longer to do, and will require you to have a similar strength fitness and ability, take him to the ground and beat him at his game. This is how I would do it, after lunching a knee at his face if he shoots, or my elbow to his chin, if he is standing. Maybe it will connect, and maybe he will go down. But at least it will help me when we are on the floor, since he has to deal with his dislocated jaw or his broken nose, maybe.
Talented people can make a sport work for them. But the principle in Yoseikan is mutual welfare and prosperity. Those who will fail with the sport method are then left behind, and this creates an unbalance in society. An unbalanced society will lead to social problems. Hence a training method that is suitable for all is better.
Regards,
I said you may be the person that would say the negative comment about me saying I could handle a BJJer. I don't know you so I can't say you’re that person. You say you aren't, so I believe you. But then Darin said,
You missed my point. And yes even big strong guys like you do get mugged or worse. I don't think its something you can be too confident about. Self defense Is about common sense and luck.
So someone somewhere at some point will say it.
Like I said before, the best method to deal with a BJJer is to knock him out with one strike! But obviously without the training you will never succeed. Could a karateka do it? I would love to see Kanazawa in his prime have to defend himself against a BJJer on the street. It would be interesting to see. Kanazawa has the sort of spirit you would expect to be successful, with the goods to back it up.
If you want a sure fire method, that will be more of a struggle, and will take longer to do, and will require you to have a similar strength fitness and ability, take him to the ground and beat him at his game. This is how I would do it, after lunching a knee at his face if he shoots, or my elbow to his chin, if he is standing. Maybe it will connect, and maybe he will go down. But at least it will help me when we are on the floor, since he has to deal with his dislocated jaw or his broken nose, maybe.
Talented people can make a sport work for them. But the principle in Yoseikan is mutual welfare and prosperity. Those who will fail with the sport method are then left behind, and this creates an unbalance in society. An unbalanced society will lead to social problems. Hence a training method that is suitable for all is better.
Regards,
JamesDavid
09-05-2007, 10:15 AM
To me aikido really isn’t designed to deal with someone trying to take you to the ground. But what would I do? To answer the original question i have been of the opinion lately that you need to be able to implement technique in a static environment. Specifically as has been mentioned in this thread you are not likely to get a lead on a trained BJJ practitioner, or any other martial art practitioner for that matter. Techniques that are trained to control and throw in aikido have their origin in much more savage application (which you should know).
1.If you can't lead into a throw then use the technique to break. i know, not very sporting.
2. Take atemi seriously. I work out on a punching bag with the atemi I have been taught and I think it fits into aikido body movement better that boxing style of striking (obviously).
.
3. The guy is almost certainly going to get you to the ground. So either train in BJJ or get your friend to kick the guy in the head while you are rolling around on the ground. Not very sporting I know.
a questions for the BJJ people, would hard ground affect your takedown technique??
1.If you can't lead into a throw then use the technique to break. i know, not very sporting.
2. Take atemi seriously. I work out on a punching bag with the atemi I have been taught and I think it fits into aikido body movement better that boxing style of striking (obviously).
.
3. The guy is almost certainly going to get you to the ground. So either train in BJJ or get your friend to kick the guy in the head while you are rolling around on the ground. Not very sporting I know.
a questions for the BJJ people, would hard ground affect your takedown technique??
darin
09-05-2007, 11:00 AM
I can not comment on the activities of "Jan de Jong Martial Arts Fitness" and I think it best that I don't. I will say my 6th, 5th, and 4th kyu grades and certificates were signed by Jan.
As for me, under Sensei Hans, he got his shodan from Yoshi, and he got his 6th dan from Mochizuki Kancho. My 3rd and 2nd kyu certificates are from Hans. I will never get a shodan from Hans, I don't think he would ever offer one, and I would never ask for one.
The term Yoseikan does not only belong to the current Mochizuki family. Also, this fact does not stop our Aikido being Yoseikan Aikido. Lets just say I am not going to be doing a Gary Bennett and appointing myself a 10th dan, EVER!
Regards,
Is that why you were training with Ross? How'd he go with him accepting your grade from Hans? Not criticising your ability just wondering about the politics with the Seifukai. How about Patrick Auge?
As for me, under Sensei Hans, he got his shodan from Yoshi, and he got his 6th dan from Mochizuki Kancho. My 3rd and 2nd kyu certificates are from Hans. I will never get a shodan from Hans, I don't think he would ever offer one, and I would never ask for one.
The term Yoseikan does not only belong to the current Mochizuki family. Also, this fact does not stop our Aikido being Yoseikan Aikido. Lets just say I am not going to be doing a Gary Bennett and appointing myself a 10th dan, EVER!
Regards,
Is that why you were training with Ross? How'd he go with him accepting your grade from Hans? Not criticising your ability just wondering about the politics with the Seifukai. How about Patrick Auge?
darin
09-05-2007, 11:30 AM
Back to the topic, I think it all depends on what the BJJ guy will do. The thing is, in a street situation he may be pointing his finger in your face. Or in a bar pushing you. You only see these kinds of attacks in the UFC press conferences! hehehe
I too like Graham have had success using leg and ankle locks against grapplers as well as foot sweeps. But then again we don't do pure aikido and Yoseikan Budo wasn't just aikido.
I still think it comes down to how you train.
I too like Graham have had success using leg and ankle locks against grapplers as well as foot sweeps. But then again we don't do pure aikido and Yoseikan Budo wasn't just aikido.
I still think it comes down to how you train.
wildaikido
09-05-2007, 12:06 PM
Is that why you were training with Ross? How'd he go with him accepting your grade from Hans? Not criticising your ability just wondering about the politics with the Seifukai. How about Patrick Auge?
Ross was very happy to accept my 4th kyu at the time. He said, in theory, a couple of years (which would have been a couple of years ago) and he was happy for me to be a shodan.
In America, Auge Sensei was very accepting of me. I found with my 8 years (at the time) and 2nd kyu I was at the level I belonged at, but there was really only one second kyu to compare myself to, William, and he, I think, had been doing it for a while (he is the guy that kicked my arse with the grappling). I know for sure the brown belts were above and beyond me, hence I know what I am training to achieve.
Regards,
Ross was very happy to accept my 4th kyu at the time. He said, in theory, a couple of years (which would have been a couple of years ago) and he was happy for me to be a shodan.
In America, Auge Sensei was very accepting of me. I found with my 8 years (at the time) and 2nd kyu I was at the level I belonged at, but there was really only one second kyu to compare myself to, William, and he, I think, had been doing it for a while (he is the guy that kicked my arse with the grappling). I know for sure the brown belts were above and beyond me, hence I know what I am training to achieve.
Regards,
DonMagee
09-05-2007, 01:15 PM
Hopefully we know about the scientific method (if not they didn't, they do now :D) But my point was you don't go out drop a brick and a feather and say, heavy things fall faster than light thing because that is what you observe. Especially when Galileo has already proved that this Greek notion is wrong. We should always start by learning the lessons of those who came before us. Then we will develop past them.
I said you may be the person that would say the negative comment about me saying I could handle a BJJer. I don't know you so I can't say you're that person. You say you aren't, so I believe you. But then Darin said,
So someone somewhere at some point will say it.
Like I said before, the best method to deal with a BJJer is to knock him out with one strike! But obviously without the training you will never succeed. Could a karateka do it? I would love to see Kanazawa in his prime have to defend himself against a BJJer on the street. It would be interesting to see. Kanazawa has the sort of spirit you would expect to be successful, with the goods to back it up.
If you want a sure fire method, that will be more of a struggle, and will take longer to do, and will require you to have a similar strength fitness and ability, take him to the ground and beat him at his game. This is how I would do it, after lunching a knee at his face if he shoots, or my elbow to his chin, if he is standing. Maybe it will connect, and maybe he will go down. But at least it will help me when we are on the floor, since he has to deal with his dislocated jaw or his broken nose, maybe.
Talented people can make a sport work for them. But the principle in Yoseikan is mutual welfare and prosperity. Those who will fail with the sport method are then left behind, and this creates an unbalance in society. An unbalanced society will lead to social problems. Hence a training method that is suitable for all is better.
Regards,
Judo also has the same goal of mutual welfare and benefit. However, the training methods are not designed for everyone. My fear is that like the "No child left behind Act" in the Unites States, targeting a training method everyone can do means watering down your training to the lowest ability level of the group. When students couldn't pass the tests in high school, to keep funding schools made the tests easier. Without exclusion, you see the same in martial arts.
That is NOT to say some people should no train. Everyone should train, however, people need to realize they will not always succeed. Not everyone will get a black belt, or even get past their white belt. The encouragement should be to train, everyone can train, even if its only for 5 minutes at the level most judo and bjj clubs train at. The training is for everyone, just everyone might not be successful at it.
In regards to the scientific method, the martial arts are not an exact science. In fact most of our proofs have never been recreated. There is not a single person in aikido today who can do what Ueshiba did. To me this means one of three things.
a) aikdoka of today are training wrong on purpose for some reason.
b) Ueshiba was a poor teacher and did not teach what he knew.
c) The stories were not true.
Unlike the feather and the brick, we can not reproduce what Ueshiba was able to do. I can quickly test the feather and brick and find they fall at the same speeds and grow on it. I can quickly test the effectiveness of an armbar and grow on it. But the metaphysical subjects that I am questioning can not be tested. They are more like philosophy or psychology. There is no proof or right answer, unlike an armbar. Also my personal testing in both types of training environments has proven to me there is something lacking in non-sport training that I think is dearly important. This is in direct conflict with Ueshiba. Who is right? Me, Him, probably both. It is not disrespectful to challenge him. I doubt he even cares.
Someone asks if hard ground would change the way I do takedowns. The short answer is no, my takedowns work the same no matter how hard the ground is, you are my landing mat. Squishy human is soft no matter if its concrete or a bed of nails.
I said you may be the person that would say the negative comment about me saying I could handle a BJJer. I don't know you so I can't say you're that person. You say you aren't, so I believe you. But then Darin said,
So someone somewhere at some point will say it.
Like I said before, the best method to deal with a BJJer is to knock him out with one strike! But obviously without the training you will never succeed. Could a karateka do it? I would love to see Kanazawa in his prime have to defend himself against a BJJer on the street. It would be interesting to see. Kanazawa has the sort of spirit you would expect to be successful, with the goods to back it up.
If you want a sure fire method, that will be more of a struggle, and will take longer to do, and will require you to have a similar strength fitness and ability, take him to the ground and beat him at his game. This is how I would do it, after lunching a knee at his face if he shoots, or my elbow to his chin, if he is standing. Maybe it will connect, and maybe he will go down. But at least it will help me when we are on the floor, since he has to deal with his dislocated jaw or his broken nose, maybe.
Talented people can make a sport work for them. But the principle in Yoseikan is mutual welfare and prosperity. Those who will fail with the sport method are then left behind, and this creates an unbalance in society. An unbalanced society will lead to social problems. Hence a training method that is suitable for all is better.
Regards,
Judo also has the same goal of mutual welfare and benefit. However, the training methods are not designed for everyone. My fear is that like the "No child left behind Act" in the Unites States, targeting a training method everyone can do means watering down your training to the lowest ability level of the group. When students couldn't pass the tests in high school, to keep funding schools made the tests easier. Without exclusion, you see the same in martial arts.
That is NOT to say some people should no train. Everyone should train, however, people need to realize they will not always succeed. Not everyone will get a black belt, or even get past their white belt. The encouragement should be to train, everyone can train, even if its only for 5 minutes at the level most judo and bjj clubs train at. The training is for everyone, just everyone might not be successful at it.
In regards to the scientific method, the martial arts are not an exact science. In fact most of our proofs have never been recreated. There is not a single person in aikido today who can do what Ueshiba did. To me this means one of three things.
a) aikdoka of today are training wrong on purpose for some reason.
b) Ueshiba was a poor teacher and did not teach what he knew.
c) The stories were not true.
Unlike the feather and the brick, we can not reproduce what Ueshiba was able to do. I can quickly test the feather and brick and find they fall at the same speeds and grow on it. I can quickly test the effectiveness of an armbar and grow on it. But the metaphysical subjects that I am questioning can not be tested. They are more like philosophy or psychology. There is no proof or right answer, unlike an armbar. Also my personal testing in both types of training environments has proven to me there is something lacking in non-sport training that I think is dearly important. This is in direct conflict with Ueshiba. Who is right? Me, Him, probably both. It is not disrespectful to challenge him. I doubt he even cares.
Someone asks if hard ground would change the way I do takedowns. The short answer is no, my takedowns work the same no matter how hard the ground is, you are my landing mat. Squishy human is soft no matter if its concrete or a bed of nails.
wildaikido
09-05-2007, 01:42 PM
Judo also has the same goal of mutual welfare and benefit. However, the training methods are not designed for everyone. My fear is that like the "No child left behind Act" in the Unites States, targeting a training method everyone can do means watering down your training to the lowest ability level of the group. When students couldn't pass the tests in high school, to keep funding schools made the tests easier. Without exclusion, you see the same in martial arts.
Judo was originally developed for this goal. That is why it is taught in the school system in Japan. This was Kano's goal, not an Olympic sport, with that type of training.
That is NOT to say some people should no train. Everyone should train, however, people need to realize they will not always succeed. Not everyone will get a black belt, or even get past their white belt. The encouragement should be to train, everyone can train, even if its only for 5 minutes at the level most judo and bjj clubs train at. The training is for everyone, just everyone might not be successful at it.
I think with the right teacher everyone can succeed.
In regards to the scientific method, the martial arts are not an exact science. In fact most of our proofs have never been recreated. There is not a single person in aikido today who can do what Ueshiba did. To me this means one of three things.
a) aikdoka of today are training wrong on purpose for some reason.
b) Ueshiba was a poor teacher and did not teach what he knew.
c) The stories were not true.
It would have to be a combination of the three. But that makes the goal no less important. The main problem today, and I think even in the later years of O'Sensei's life, is that you don't get the feeling that the uke is really testing tori, it is mostly a flashy demonstration. When you see footage of Mifune with his partners, you know those guys are trying to throw him, and he moves effetely past them, and then throws them in return. This is how it used to be with O'Sensei. So with consistent hard mindful training, the evidence is still there, Kano, Ueshiba, Mifune, Mochizuki, that it is possible to cultivate the awareness to use simple techniques to overcome an opponent.
Unlike the feather and the brick, we can not reproduce what Ueshiba was able to do. I can quickly test the feather and brick and find they fall at the same speeds and grow on it. I can quickly test the effectiveness of an armbar and grow on it. But the metaphysical subjects that I am questioning can not be tested. They are more like philosophy or psychology. There is no proof or right answer, unlike an armbar. Also my personal testing in both types of training environments has proven to me there is something lacking in non-sport training that I think is dearly important. This is in direct conflict with Ueshiba. Who is right? Me, Him, probably both. It is not disrespectful to challenge him. I doubt he even cares.
I would not call it metaphysical. This is kind of a cop-out. You can see the physical manifestation. Today I only see it in kendo, were old guys bust out simple flicks and beat down younger faster stronger opponents. But it is there.
The topic of sport or not sport training is highly subjective. To me a sport leads to a competition. A competition leads to a winner. A winner requires a loser. There is nothing mutually beneficial in this situation. I would say that O'Sensei is right. But I track this logic up to the idea of the cold war as Mochizuki Kancho spoke about. If you think about a winning and losing mentality in terms of a war, losing is bad. Ultimately, everyone loses. This is the fact of mutually assure destruction. Plant the seed that it’s not okay to lose in a future president’s mind, and when it comes time to choose to step down or press the button, there’s a chance it won't be good, for the whole world!
Regards,
Judo was originally developed for this goal. That is why it is taught in the school system in Japan. This was Kano's goal, not an Olympic sport, with that type of training.
That is NOT to say some people should no train. Everyone should train, however, people need to realize they will not always succeed. Not everyone will get a black belt, or even get past their white belt. The encouragement should be to train, everyone can train, even if its only for 5 minutes at the level most judo and bjj clubs train at. The training is for everyone, just everyone might not be successful at it.
I think with the right teacher everyone can succeed.
In regards to the scientific method, the martial arts are not an exact science. In fact most of our proofs have never been recreated. There is not a single person in aikido today who can do what Ueshiba did. To me this means one of three things.
a) aikdoka of today are training wrong on purpose for some reason.
b) Ueshiba was a poor teacher and did not teach what he knew.
c) The stories were not true.
It would have to be a combination of the three. But that makes the goal no less important. The main problem today, and I think even in the later years of O'Sensei's life, is that you don't get the feeling that the uke is really testing tori, it is mostly a flashy demonstration. When you see footage of Mifune with his partners, you know those guys are trying to throw him, and he moves effetely past them, and then throws them in return. This is how it used to be with O'Sensei. So with consistent hard mindful training, the evidence is still there, Kano, Ueshiba, Mifune, Mochizuki, that it is possible to cultivate the awareness to use simple techniques to overcome an opponent.
Unlike the feather and the brick, we can not reproduce what Ueshiba was able to do. I can quickly test the feather and brick and find they fall at the same speeds and grow on it. I can quickly test the effectiveness of an armbar and grow on it. But the metaphysical subjects that I am questioning can not be tested. They are more like philosophy or psychology. There is no proof or right answer, unlike an armbar. Also my personal testing in both types of training environments has proven to me there is something lacking in non-sport training that I think is dearly important. This is in direct conflict with Ueshiba. Who is right? Me, Him, probably both. It is not disrespectful to challenge him. I doubt he even cares.
I would not call it metaphysical. This is kind of a cop-out. You can see the physical manifestation. Today I only see it in kendo, were old guys bust out simple flicks and beat down younger faster stronger opponents. But it is there.
The topic of sport or not sport training is highly subjective. To me a sport leads to a competition. A competition leads to a winner. A winner requires a loser. There is nothing mutually beneficial in this situation. I would say that O'Sensei is right. But I track this logic up to the idea of the cold war as Mochizuki Kancho spoke about. If you think about a winning and losing mentality in terms of a war, losing is bad. Ultimately, everyone loses. This is the fact of mutually assure destruction. Plant the seed that it’s not okay to lose in a future president’s mind, and when it comes time to choose to step down or press the button, there’s a chance it won't be good, for the whole world!
Regards,
Aristeia
09-05-2007, 03:11 PM
I see this kind of rhetoric alot from the art vs sport debate and it tells me that people just don't understand what they are calling "competitive" training.
Having taught in both Aikido and BJJ it is very clear to me that it's the latter that really teaches people the value of losing. It's not a subject that ever comes up in aikido - but it's an almost everyday discussion on the BJJ mat...
Having taught in both Aikido and BJJ it is very clear to me that it's the latter that really teaches people the value of losing. It's not a subject that ever comes up in aikido - but it's an almost everyday discussion on the BJJ mat...
Basia Halliop
09-05-2007, 03:43 PM
The topic of sport or not sport training is highly subjective. To me a sport leads to a competition. A competition leads to a winner. A winner requires a loser. There is nothing mutually beneficial in this situation.
Well, that implies you think there is nothing beneficial to losing. If 'losing' means no longer having training available (i.e., if you had to auditione for it or if poor 'performers' get kicked out or get lesser quality training), that's one thing, but if it means 'you don't get to complete the technique you wanted to complete, and instead you have to tap out', or 'you don't get this particular rank today' that's pretty different. That may or may not teach you a lot, depending on the circumstances (I mean if it's too far over your head it might not be helpful, but if it's right at the right level it can teach you plenty).
I think with the right teacher everyone can succeed.
Succeed to the same level when compared to each other student, though? (I don't think every human being on earth has it in them to be a 7th dan, unless we arbitrarily change the defnition of 7th dan to include them. The same goes for any rank, unless the ranks are given for effort instead of achievement, which makes them something quite different). Or succeed relative to their own goals and abilities, in the sense that each student should get better in some way with time?
Well, that implies you think there is nothing beneficial to losing. If 'losing' means no longer having training available (i.e., if you had to auditione for it or if poor 'performers' get kicked out or get lesser quality training), that's one thing, but if it means 'you don't get to complete the technique you wanted to complete, and instead you have to tap out', or 'you don't get this particular rank today' that's pretty different. That may or may not teach you a lot, depending on the circumstances (I mean if it's too far over your head it might not be helpful, but if it's right at the right level it can teach you plenty).
I think with the right teacher everyone can succeed.
Succeed to the same level when compared to each other student, though? (I don't think every human being on earth has it in them to be a 7th dan, unless we arbitrarily change the defnition of 7th dan to include them. The same goes for any rank, unless the ranks are given for effort instead of achievement, which makes them something quite different). Or succeed relative to their own goals and abilities, in the sense that each student should get better in some way with time?
Kevin Leavitt
09-05-2007, 07:57 PM
Interesting conversation!
I think alot of this, as everything in life, depends on how you define success and failure.
I think too many times we assume that everyone defines it the same and that there is only one set of values or criteria to judge success and failure on.
I think with martial type training we tend to want to draw a conclusion on success and failure based on a "would you have lived or died, or suffered a severe injury.
Sort of a black or white criteria, or duality so to speak....
I find this quite ironic since this is the very thing that budo really seeks to eliminate or to at least reach a deeper understanding of.
...yet we all feel compelled to judge ourselves and others martial ability and effectiveness against some criteria that we some how established based on ....what?
Our perception of how well we do...however we self define it!
In a competitive environment we do have criteria to judge effectiveness...in things like judo and BJJ tournaments were we determine winners and losers of the matches on that established critieria.
That said, I don't really think that anyone I compete with in BJJ really cares or takes it too seriously macroscopically.
I just think of the 75 plus year old man that I saw from Sweden in January and the Europeans that got out there and rolled with the rest of us! I think everyone considered him a winner just for having the desire and the joy of life to actually be out there doing it!
I think alot of this, as everything in life, depends on how you define success and failure.
I think too many times we assume that everyone defines it the same and that there is only one set of values or criteria to judge success and failure on.
I think with martial type training we tend to want to draw a conclusion on success and failure based on a "would you have lived or died, or suffered a severe injury.
Sort of a black or white criteria, or duality so to speak....
I find this quite ironic since this is the very thing that budo really seeks to eliminate or to at least reach a deeper understanding of.
...yet we all feel compelled to judge ourselves and others martial ability and effectiveness against some criteria that we some how established based on ....what?
Our perception of how well we do...however we self define it!
In a competitive environment we do have criteria to judge effectiveness...in things like judo and BJJ tournaments were we determine winners and losers of the matches on that established critieria.
That said, I don't really think that anyone I compete with in BJJ really cares or takes it too seriously macroscopically.
I just think of the 75 plus year old man that I saw from Sweden in January and the Europeans that got out there and rolled with the rest of us! I think everyone considered him a winner just for having the desire and the joy of life to actually be out there doing it!
JamesDavid
09-06-2007, 12:47 AM
[QUOTE=Someone asks if hard ground would change the way I do takedowns. The short answer is no, my takedowns work the same no matter how hard the ground is, you are my landing mat. Squishy human is soft no matter if its concrete or a bed of nails.[/QUOTE]
Thanks
Do you think as a BJJ practitioner you could implement a takedown or defence of a takedown that would take advantage of the hard ground?
Thanks
Do you think as a BJJ practitioner you could implement a takedown or defence of a takedown that would take advantage of the hard ground?
Aristeia
09-06-2007, 03:53 AM
most takedowns land uke on the ground under nage - so yeah hard ground play into the takedown guys favour. Also if you sprawl on a guy on concrete he's not having a great day....
DonMagee
09-06-2007, 07:10 AM
Thanks
Do you think as a BJJ practitioner you could implement a takedown or defence of a takedown that would take advantage of the hard ground?
I'm also a judoka, so I'm not not a normal bjj player. But most of the guys in my club are either wrestlers or judoka, and they have good takedown skills. Even on the mats I've been slamed so hard I had to take a few seconds to get my bearings.
Do you think as a BJJ practitioner you could implement a takedown or defence of a takedown that would take advantage of the hard ground?
I'm also a judoka, so I'm not not a normal bjj player. But most of the guys in my club are either wrestlers or judoka, and they have good takedown skills. Even on the mats I've been slamed so hard I had to take a few seconds to get my bearings.
Kevin Leavitt
09-06-2007, 07:16 PM
Certainly the composition of the ground material is a factor. That said, the situation is what the situation is, you don't really have much of a choice many times over what you have for ground cover, it is what it is.
To me, putting things in perspective, there is no difference in execution on hard ground vice soft ground...it just hurts more and not something you want to train on.
you tuck your head in on soft ground as well as hard ground, you move the same way on the ground, albiet you might get scuffed up and road rash...
it is what it is.
To me, putting things in perspective, there is no difference in execution on hard ground vice soft ground...it just hurts more and not something you want to train on.
you tuck your head in on soft ground as well as hard ground, you move the same way on the ground, albiet you might get scuffed up and road rash...
it is what it is.
bob_stra
09-07-2007, 12:39 AM
Okay, my lack of wanting to say I can handle a trained BJJ is only from a lack of ego. I did say I easily handled a black belt in judo, and I will add that I also handled the brown belt that was in the same class, who was training for the sole purpose of competing. My ne waza randori against him resulted in me doing things that were not allowed in judo (to his feet and hands) hence we had to break and start again.
Where was this, please?
Besides which, it's a little disingenuous to say 'handled' when you patiently did things that were outside the scope of that practice session, isn't it? That would be akin to me pulling out a gun and shooting you during Jiyu-Waza.
How many times do I need to tell you I train to fight on the ground! Yoseikan Aikido includes the ground fighting from judo. My personal experience of cleaning up a black belt in judo here I Australia, every time on the floor, and then having my arse handed to me by a purple belt Yoseikan Aikidoka in the US, tells me that the ground fighting we do is good.
Same question again.
Mike Fooks: clean up your inbox: I'm trying to send you PM's but they keep bouncing back :(
Where was this, please?
Besides which, it's a little disingenuous to say 'handled' when you patiently did things that were outside the scope of that practice session, isn't it? That would be akin to me pulling out a gun and shooting you during Jiyu-Waza.
How many times do I need to tell you I train to fight on the ground! Yoseikan Aikido includes the ground fighting from judo. My personal experience of cleaning up a black belt in judo here I Australia, every time on the floor, and then having my arse handed to me by a purple belt Yoseikan Aikidoka in the US, tells me that the ground fighting we do is good.
Same question again.
Mike Fooks: clean up your inbox: I'm trying to send you PM's but they keep bouncing back :(
wildaikido
09-07-2007, 09:35 AM
Where was this, please?
It was at the Scarborough PCYC.
Besides which, it's a little disingenuous to say 'handled' when you patiently did things that were outside the scope of that practice session, isn't it? That would be akin to me pulling out a gun and shooting you during Jiyu-Waza.
No it was just Ne Waza randori. However, I had no concept of "rules" so every now and again Allen would call "Shido". Allan liked to use me as a practice dummy for his senior brown belt, as I was bigger and had a little more resistance in me then his black belt (also I think the brown belt had sussed out the black belts tactics). I stopped training with him because I didn't like being used as a training tool for his competition. And I got injured due to this in my 4th and final class with him.
I will say I have surprised most of the judo clubs I have gone to, even Peter at Judo International (;)) was surprised. However, I felt he was a little heavy on the competition aspect.
Same question again.
I do most of my ground training on Friday day at ECU in Joondalup. The final 15 to 20 minutes of training is grappling. Occasionally we get a chance to do some on Tuesday night.
Regards
It was at the Scarborough PCYC.
Besides which, it's a little disingenuous to say 'handled' when you patiently did things that were outside the scope of that practice session, isn't it? That would be akin to me pulling out a gun and shooting you during Jiyu-Waza.
No it was just Ne Waza randori. However, I had no concept of "rules" so every now and again Allen would call "Shido". Allan liked to use me as a practice dummy for his senior brown belt, as I was bigger and had a little more resistance in me then his black belt (also I think the brown belt had sussed out the black belts tactics). I stopped training with him because I didn't like being used as a training tool for his competition. And I got injured due to this in my 4th and final class with him.
I will say I have surprised most of the judo clubs I have gone to, even Peter at Judo International (;)) was surprised. However, I felt he was a little heavy on the competition aspect.
Same question again.
I do most of my ground training on Friday day at ECU in Joondalup. The final 15 to 20 minutes of training is grappling. Occasionally we get a chance to do some on Tuesday night.
Regards
Kevin Leavitt
09-07-2007, 09:39 AM
Interesting Bob...same thought came to my mind concerning the gun analogy.
there certainly is a spectrum of force, paradiqms, rules (implied, specified, and assumed) in any situation.
The concept of "handled" can mean many things. As with you the concept of a handgun popped in my mind. I can pretty much handle any body with a empty hand attack, or even a non-projectile weapon outside of that fighitng range with a handgun.
So what is the point of developing a decision criteria surrounding the overall worth of an art based on whatever you personally decide is a good one to judge things on?
I will "one up" you with the hand gun. then someone else will "one up me with guided missles, or blow darts, and on and on.
The point is, not the comparison of whether Aikidoka can handle judoka, bjjers, on others within a set of parameters we establish.
The point is, IMO, what we can learn from the various encounters and experiences that can lead to a deeper understanding of ourselves and others we interact with.
Not trying to sound too esoteric or high brow on this...frankly I love a good challenge and would gladly meet anyone that wants to test their skill level against me.
I always win.
why? because it ain't about the being "handled" part of it for me, but the understanding and knowledge that we both gain from the encounter.
(I am both an aikidoka and a BJJer)
there certainly is a spectrum of force, paradiqms, rules (implied, specified, and assumed) in any situation.
The concept of "handled" can mean many things. As with you the concept of a handgun popped in my mind. I can pretty much handle any body with a empty hand attack, or even a non-projectile weapon outside of that fighitng range with a handgun.
So what is the point of developing a decision criteria surrounding the overall worth of an art based on whatever you personally decide is a good one to judge things on?
I will "one up" you with the hand gun. then someone else will "one up me with guided missles, or blow darts, and on and on.
The point is, not the comparison of whether Aikidoka can handle judoka, bjjers, on others within a set of parameters we establish.
The point is, IMO, what we can learn from the various encounters and experiences that can lead to a deeper understanding of ourselves and others we interact with.
Not trying to sound too esoteric or high brow on this...frankly I love a good challenge and would gladly meet anyone that wants to test their skill level against me.
I always win.
why? because it ain't about the being "handled" part of it for me, but the understanding and knowledge that we both gain from the encounter.
(I am both an aikidoka and a BJJer)
wildaikido
09-07-2007, 09:43 AM
The point is, IMO, what we can learn from the various encounters and experiences that can lead to a deeper understanding of ourselves and others we interact with.
I think this embodies the principle of Shiai Kano Sensei gave us, "to try together," not to compete.
Regards,
I think this embodies the principle of Shiai Kano Sensei gave us, "to try together," not to compete.
Regards,
Kevin Leavitt
09-07-2007, 09:47 AM
Yes. I think Kano's point is missed often. The competition model can be a good tool to learn his lessons and grow with as long as competition is a means to the end, and not the measure of overall success of effectiveness.
wildaikido
09-07-2007, 09:51 AM
Yes. I think Kano's point is missed often. The competition model can be a good tool to learn his lessons and grow with as long as competition is a means to the end, and not the measure of overall success of effectiveness.
Hear, hear.
Hear, hear.
darin
09-07-2007, 10:05 AM
I think I know that judo instructor at the Scarborough PCYC but I can't remember his name. Been over a year since I was last there. The aikido school there is now a part of John Langley's institute of aikido.
wildaikido
09-07-2007, 10:08 AM
I think I know that judo instructor at the Scarborough PCYC but I can't remember his name. Been over a year since I was last there. The aikido school there is now a part of John Langley's institute of aikido.
I was about to say, I would have thought you would have trained with them. But then I though, Yoshi was more of a Karateka, so he might not have been to heavy on the Judo. Didn't he teach kids judo?
Regards,
PS Yes, his name is Allen, or maybe Allan, or Alan... I don't know
Just looked him up, Allen it is.
I was about to say, I would have thought you would have trained with them. But then I though, Yoshi was more of a Karateka, so he might not have been to heavy on the Judo. Didn't he teach kids judo?
Regards,
PS Yes, his name is Allen, or maybe Allan, or Alan... I don't know
Just looked him up, Allen it is.
bob_stra
09-07-2007, 10:37 AM
It was at the Scarborough PCYC.
Beating a man well into his 60's is not going to look good on paper :)
EDIT: Oh I see. Yes, I know of whom you speak....
Still, a sample size of one judoka BB (whom, AFAIK, doesn't like or do a lot of groundwork)...hmm
No it was just Ne Waza randori. However, I had no concept of "rules" so every now and again Allen would call "Shido".
Yes, well....Alan is an interesting character :)
I will say I have surprised most of the judo clubs I have gone to, even Peter at Judo International (;)) was surprised. However, I felt he was a little heavy on the competition aspect.
Oh - you're that Graham! :)
But I only saw you there for one class - what happened? Were you just popping in to check the place out, or did you decide that didn't meet your needs?
Shame, as there is some decent training going on Monday and Thurs nights, esp in regards to randori (newaza and tachiwaza). Strong guys: we now also sport a few BJJ purple and blue belts.
I'd recommend you look at UWA (ex Olympians and Int'l players)....but it seems you'd prefer a less competitive atmosphere?
PS: Did you check out the Kawaishi folks I recommended (IIRC)?
I do most of my ground training on Friday day at ECU in Joondalup. The final 15 to 20 minutes of training is grappling. Occasionally we get a chance to do some on Tuesday night.
The BJJ / MMA club there? Or something else?
Beating a man well into his 60's is not going to look good on paper :)
EDIT: Oh I see. Yes, I know of whom you speak....
Still, a sample size of one judoka BB (whom, AFAIK, doesn't like or do a lot of groundwork)...hmm
No it was just Ne Waza randori. However, I had no concept of "rules" so every now and again Allen would call "Shido".
Yes, well....Alan is an interesting character :)
I will say I have surprised most of the judo clubs I have gone to, even Peter at Judo International (;)) was surprised. However, I felt he was a little heavy on the competition aspect.
Oh - you're that Graham! :)
But I only saw you there for one class - what happened? Were you just popping in to check the place out, or did you decide that didn't meet your needs?
Shame, as there is some decent training going on Monday and Thurs nights, esp in regards to randori (newaza and tachiwaza). Strong guys: we now also sport a few BJJ purple and blue belts.
I'd recommend you look at UWA (ex Olympians and Int'l players)....but it seems you'd prefer a less competitive atmosphere?
PS: Did you check out the Kawaishi folks I recommended (IIRC)?
I do most of my ground training on Friday day at ECU in Joondalup. The final 15 to 20 minutes of training is grappling. Occasionally we get a chance to do some on Tuesday night.
The BJJ / MMA club there? Or something else?
wildaikido
09-07-2007, 10:42 AM
Beating a man well into his 60's is not going to look good on paper :)
EDIT: Oh I see. Yes, I know of whom you speak....
Still, a sample size of one judoka BB (whom, AFAIK, doesn't like or do a lot of groundwork)...hmm
No, it wasn't Allen, it was his black belt, I say his, as for the 4 weeks I was there, there was only one. I can't recall his name.
Yes, well....Alan is an interesting character :)
Well lets just say there was one other thing that made me want to stop training :D
Oh - you're that Graham! :)
But I only saw you there for one class - what happened? Were you just popping in to check the place out, or did you decide that didn't meet your needs?
Shame, as there is some decent training going on Monday and Thurs nights, esp in regards to randori (newaza and tachiwaza).
Strong guys: we now also sport a few BJJ purple and blue belts.
I'd recommend you look at UWA....but it seems you'd prefer a less competitive atmosphere?
PS: Did you check out the Kawaishi folks I recommended?
The BJJ / MMA club there? Or something else?
I enjoyed the training, but like I said, Peter was very into the competition, so it doesn't really gel with my "philosophy" I really just want to learn techniques to improve my Yoseikan.
YOU MENTIONED SOME KAWAISHI PEOPLE!!! PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD REMENTION THEM TO ME! I HAVE KAWAISHI'S BOOKS, THE MAN IS A LEGEND!
:eek: Shin kyoku, deep breath...
Regards,
EDIT: Oh I see. Yes, I know of whom you speak....
Still, a sample size of one judoka BB (whom, AFAIK, doesn't like or do a lot of groundwork)...hmm
No, it wasn't Allen, it was his black belt, I say his, as for the 4 weeks I was there, there was only one. I can't recall his name.
Yes, well....Alan is an interesting character :)
Well lets just say there was one other thing that made me want to stop training :D
Oh - you're that Graham! :)
But I only saw you there for one class - what happened? Were you just popping in to check the place out, or did you decide that didn't meet your needs?
Shame, as there is some decent training going on Monday and Thurs nights, esp in regards to randori (newaza and tachiwaza).
Strong guys: we now also sport a few BJJ purple and blue belts.
I'd recommend you look at UWA....but it seems you'd prefer a less competitive atmosphere?
PS: Did you check out the Kawaishi folks I recommended?
The BJJ / MMA club there? Or something else?
I enjoyed the training, but like I said, Peter was very into the competition, so it doesn't really gel with my "philosophy" I really just want to learn techniques to improve my Yoseikan.
YOU MENTIONED SOME KAWAISHI PEOPLE!!! PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD REMENTION THEM TO ME! I HAVE KAWAISHI'S BOOKS, THE MAN IS A LEGEND!
:eek: Shin kyoku, deep breath...
Regards,
Daniel Blanco
09-07-2007, 10:48 AM
Aikido will work well if you concentrate on distance,tech,Off Balancing and throwing.Do not try to pin,because BJJ artist train to fight on the ground,your technic( small circle & tight no slack) Ok.Now to all who read this message RESPECT THE ART OF BJJ,because these artist will put your lights out.I have a great respect for BJJ,and all arts,and so should everyone.
wildaikido
09-07-2007, 10:52 AM
Aikido will work well if you concentrate on distance,tech,Off Balancing and throwing.Do not try to pin,because BJJ artist train to fight on the ground,your technic( small circle & tight no slack) Ok.Now to all who read this message RESPECT THE ART OF BJJ,because these artist will put your lights out.I have a great respect for BJJ,and all arts,and so should everyone.
Who is disrespecting BJJers?
Who is disrespecting BJJers?
bob_stra
09-07-2007, 10:55 AM
I enjoyed the training, but like I said, Peter was very into the competition, so it doesn't really gel with my "philosophy" I really just want to learn techniques to improve my Yoseikan.
You just haven't had enough practice tuning stuff out :)
I do little things that you're not meant to all the time... (within the bounds of judo, of course). Had I know that was what you were interested, we could have discussed using some of those JJJ techs of yours in newaza. And I'm sure the BJJ guys wouldn't mind either.
It's a good place to train: they go hard but safe. Your only other real option for that level of vigour (and beyond) is UWA....but...yeah: it's rough ;)
There's also some good training at Subiaco PCYC, when there are enough seniors on the mat. I train kata down there on Sundays (which I suspect you'd enjoy) and occassionally do the Thursday class.
YOU MENTIONED SOME KAWAISHI PEOPLE!!! PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD REMENTION THEM TO ME! I HAVE KAWAISHI'S BOOKS, THE MAN IS A LEGEND!
:eek: Shin kyoku, deep breath...
Regards,
http://www.users.bigpond.com/JISHIN/martial-art.htm
There's also a sambo club down that way, FWIW
What's this thing at ECU? I haven't seen any flyers around campus, although I know of a BJJ/MMA club
You just haven't had enough practice tuning stuff out :)
I do little things that you're not meant to all the time... (within the bounds of judo, of course). Had I know that was what you were interested, we could have discussed using some of those JJJ techs of yours in newaza. And I'm sure the BJJ guys wouldn't mind either.
It's a good place to train: they go hard but safe. Your only other real option for that level of vigour (and beyond) is UWA....but...yeah: it's rough ;)
There's also some good training at Subiaco PCYC, when there are enough seniors on the mat. I train kata down there on Sundays (which I suspect you'd enjoy) and occassionally do the Thursday class.
YOU MENTIONED SOME KAWAISHI PEOPLE!!! PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD REMENTION THEM TO ME! I HAVE KAWAISHI'S BOOKS, THE MAN IS A LEGEND!
:eek: Shin kyoku, deep breath...
Regards,
http://www.users.bigpond.com/JISHIN/martial-art.htm
There's also a sambo club down that way, FWIW
What's this thing at ECU? I haven't seen any flyers around campus, although I know of a BJJ/MMA club
wildaikido
09-07-2007, 11:01 AM
http://www.users.bigpond.com/JISHIN/martial-art.htm
There's also a sambo club down that way, FWIW
Oh now I remember, If I could get down that way I would, now I know they are Kawaishi people! Way to far from Joondalup!
What's this thing at ECU? I haven't seen any flyers around campus, although I know of a BJJ/MMA club
I run a Yoseikan training group. I have had way too many students, up to 16 on Tuesday, so I have not put any new flyers up. Last year I had 6, and then all of a sudden after a year (literally) it jumped up to 14! I say literally a year, as the Tuesday before was our 1 year celebration.
Regards,
There's also a sambo club down that way, FWIW
Oh now I remember, If I could get down that way I would, now I know they are Kawaishi people! Way to far from Joondalup!
What's this thing at ECU? I haven't seen any flyers around campus, although I know of a BJJ/MMA club
I run a Yoseikan training group. I have had way too many students, up to 16 on Tuesday, so I have not put any new flyers up. Last year I had 6, and then all of a sudden after a year (literally) it jumped up to 14! I say literally a year, as the Tuesday before was our 1 year celebration.
Regards,
bob_stra
09-07-2007, 11:09 AM
I run a Yoseikan training group. I have had way too many students, up to 16 on Tuesday, so I have not put any new flyers up. Last year I had 6, and then all of a sudden after a year (literally) it jumped up to 14! I say literally a year, as the Tuesday before was our 1 year celebration.
Regards,
Where are you guys training - at the sport and rec building? I might pop my head in and say hi.
Morcombe (state BJJ champion and IIRC purple belt) is also at ECU joondalup. There's quite a few MMA guys there too.
One of the lecturers in the Sports Science dept is a former Olympic level judoka too.
Small world.
PM seeing you're online - I have question to ask you
Regards,
Where are you guys training - at the sport and rec building? I might pop my head in and say hi.
Morcombe (state BJJ champion and IIRC purple belt) is also at ECU joondalup. There's quite a few MMA guys there too.
One of the lecturers in the Sports Science dept is a former Olympic level judoka too.
Small world.
PM seeing you're online - I have question to ask you
wildaikido
09-07-2007, 11:12 AM
Where are you guys training - at the sport and rec building? I might pop my head in and say hi.
Morcombe (state BJJ champion and IIRC purple belt) is also at ECU joondalup. There's quite a few MMA guys there too.
One of the lecturers in the Sports Science dept is a former Olympic level judoka too.
Small world.
We are in the sports centre.
I did not know we had BJJ/MMA on campus, I have only seen some gokan ryu karate people :disgust:
Who is the lecturer? I would love to see if I can convince him to take a class. I probably wouldn't succeed, but I would ask.
Regards,
Morcombe (state BJJ champion and IIRC purple belt) is also at ECU joondalup. There's quite a few MMA guys there too.
One of the lecturers in the Sports Science dept is a former Olympic level judoka too.
Small world.
We are in the sports centre.
I did not know we had BJJ/MMA on campus, I have only seen some gokan ryu karate people :disgust:
Who is the lecturer? I would love to see if I can convince him to take a class. I probably wouldn't succeed, but I would ask.
Regards,
bob_stra
09-07-2007, 11:16 AM
We are in the sports centre.
Who is the lecturer? I would love to see if I can convince him to take a class. I probably wouldn't succeed, but I would ask.
Regards,
http://www.sebhs.ecu.edu.au/staff/cv/fiona_iredale.php
Who is the lecturer? I would love to see if I can convince him to take a class. I probably wouldn't succeed, but I would ask.
Regards,
http://www.sebhs.ecu.edu.au/staff/cv/fiona_iredale.php
wildaikido
09-07-2007, 11:22 AM
http://www.sebhs.ecu.edu.au/staff/cv/fiona_iredale.php
I will try and speak with Fiona next week. I think I have met here at some faculty research functions. If she does not train else where, and would like to, I would love to have her teach me and the other trainees so judo.
The one thing I got from training under guys like Peter was I don’t commit enough with my throws. It is just my desire not to hurt people :)
Several of us were going to train with Carlo, but he changed his senior class from Monday to Tuesday, which now clashes with our training. Oh well.
Regards,
I will try and speak with Fiona next week. I think I have met here at some faculty research functions. If she does not train else where, and would like to, I would love to have her teach me and the other trainees so judo.
The one thing I got from training under guys like Peter was I don’t commit enough with my throws. It is just my desire not to hurt people :)
Several of us were going to train with Carlo, but he changed his senior class from Monday to Tuesday, which now clashes with our training. Oh well.
Regards,
bob_stra
09-07-2007, 11:31 AM
I will try and speak with Fiona next week. I think I have met here at some faculty research functions. If she does not train else where, and would like to, I would love to have her teach me and the other trainees so judo.
The one thing I got from training under guys like Peter was I don't commit enough with my throws. It is just my desire not to hurt people :)
Several of us were going to train with Carlo, but he changed his senior class from Monday to Tuesday, which now clashes with our training. Oh well.
Regards,
I believe Clive take classes at UWA on Fridays or Sat afternoons...you may enjoy his approach.
Of course, I'm not going to say no to another Kata partner on Sundays at subiaco either...so that's an option for you as well. Gareth focuses on broad scope of judo and IIRC is also dan ranked in jujitsu
I've sent you a PM (I think)...let me know <_<
The one thing I got from training under guys like Peter was I don't commit enough with my throws. It is just my desire not to hurt people :)
Several of us were going to train with Carlo, but he changed his senior class from Monday to Tuesday, which now clashes with our training. Oh well.
Regards,
I believe Clive take classes at UWA on Fridays or Sat afternoons...you may enjoy his approach.
Of course, I'm not going to say no to another Kata partner on Sundays at subiaco either...so that's an option for you as well. Gareth focuses on broad scope of judo and IIRC is also dan ranked in jujitsu
I've sent you a PM (I think)...let me know <_<
wildaikido
09-07-2007, 11:47 AM
I believe Clive take classes at UWA on Fridays or Sat afternoons...you may enjoy his approach.
Of course, I'm not going to say no to another Kata partner on Sundays at subiaco either...so that's an option for you as well. Gareth focuses on broad scope of judo and IIRC is also dan ranked in jujitsu
Trent who is a judoka that trains with us mentioned a kata class at subi, this is why I wanted to train at Scarborough, as they were supposed to do kata after class on Tuesday.
I just notice Fiona is the secretary of Judo WA. I will have to go seek her out now :D
Regards,
Of course, I'm not going to say no to another Kata partner on Sundays at subiaco either...so that's an option for you as well. Gareth focuses on broad scope of judo and IIRC is also dan ranked in jujitsu
Trent who is a judoka that trains with us mentioned a kata class at subi, this is why I wanted to train at Scarborough, as they were supposed to do kata after class on Tuesday.
I just notice Fiona is the secretary of Judo WA. I will have to go seek her out now :D
Regards,
akiy
09-07-2007, 12:17 PM
Hi folks,
Can I please ask everyone to move personal discussions not pertaining to the thread discussion on-hand to private messaging or private e-mail?
Thank you,
-- Jun
Can I please ask everyone to move personal discussions not pertaining to the thread discussion on-hand to private messaging or private e-mail?
Thank you,
-- Jun
wildaikido
09-07-2007, 12:25 PM
To tie my tangents back into the topic at hand (sorry Jun :() I would say, learn judo to deal with BJJ (as I am trying to arrange more of). If possible, Kawaishi's method would be best (as I exclaimed). His method includes all the ne waza you would see in BJJ such as knee bars and ankle locks.
Regards,
Regards,
bob_stra
09-07-2007, 12:52 PM
I wouldn't say all the techniques seen in BJJ....not by quite a ways.
But certainly more than mainstream judo.
I wasn't aware a spontaneous discovery and sharing of knowledge was against forum protocol. If you prefer, we could continue this thread in the rapidly ugly direction it was beginning to spiral in? (BJJ vs aikido, sport vs art)?
Your point is taken however...so no more from me. Good luck Graham and let me know how you get on!
But certainly more than mainstream judo.
I wasn't aware a spontaneous discovery and sharing of knowledge was against forum protocol. If you prefer, we could continue this thread in the rapidly ugly direction it was beginning to spiral in? (BJJ vs aikido, sport vs art)?
Your point is taken however...so no more from me. Good luck Graham and let me know how you get on!
wildaikido
09-07-2007, 01:00 PM
I wouldn't say all the techniques seen in BJJ....not by quite a ways.
But certainly more than mainstream judo.
To stay on topic... I am yet to see a BJJ technique that I have not seen done by Mifune, or Kawaishi or in Kosen Judo. The techniques are nothing new to me. I would say there may be some slight difference, leading to variations etc.
Hence the reason I suggest judo to deal with BJJ. The standing techniques will also help your aikido, as will the fact that you get a resisting opponent.
(Remember we have to stay on topic ;))
Regards,
But certainly more than mainstream judo.
To stay on topic... I am yet to see a BJJ technique that I have not seen done by Mifune, or Kawaishi or in Kosen Judo. The techniques are nothing new to me. I would say there may be some slight difference, leading to variations etc.
Hence the reason I suggest judo to deal with BJJ. The standing techniques will also help your aikido, as will the fact that you get a resisting opponent.
(Remember we have to stay on topic ;))
Regards,
darin
09-07-2007, 01:05 PM
I was about to say, I would have thought you would have trained with them. But then I though, Yoshi was more of a Karateka, so he might not have been to heavy on the Judo. Didn't he teach kids judo?
Regards,
PS Yes, his name is Allen, or maybe Allan, or Alan... I don't know
Just looked him up, Allen it is.
I asked Allen to show us a few judo techniques one day but we never got around to doing anything.
I did learn the basic judo throws, chokes, locks and drills you see in Mochizuki's book however Yosh was a stickler for basics so we didn't venture out too far from kihon. I know he taught judo at UWA to the state team so he probably taught kids judo too. I just never heard about it.
Thing is although we had the karate, kenjutusu and judo elements in aikido we never really concentrated on any one of them for too long. It was always aikido. So I did separate classes in Yoseikan karate kobudo and iaido. Unfortunately at that time Yosh wasn't teaching judo as I would have signed up for that one too.
Regards,
PS Yes, his name is Allen, or maybe Allan, or Alan... I don't know
Just looked him up, Allen it is.
I asked Allen to show us a few judo techniques one day but we never got around to doing anything.
I did learn the basic judo throws, chokes, locks and drills you see in Mochizuki's book however Yosh was a stickler for basics so we didn't venture out too far from kihon. I know he taught judo at UWA to the state team so he probably taught kids judo too. I just never heard about it.
Thing is although we had the karate, kenjutusu and judo elements in aikido we never really concentrated on any one of them for too long. It was always aikido. So I did separate classes in Yoseikan karate kobudo and iaido. Unfortunately at that time Yosh wasn't teaching judo as I would have signed up for that one too.
wildaikido
09-07-2007, 01:27 PM
I did learn the basic judo throws, chokes, locks and drills you see in Mochizuki's book however Yosh was a stickler for basics so we didn't venture out too far from kihon. I know he taught judo at UWA to the state team so he probably taught kids judo too. I just never heard about it.
Interesting, we do all of the hip throws (O'Goshi, Uki Goshi, Harai Goshi, Hane Goshi etc) and like I said, Sensei Hans says he teaches us what he learnt from Yoshi.
Thing is although we had the karate, kenjutusu and judo elements in aikido we never really concentrated on any one of them for too long. It was always aikido. So I did separate classes in Yoseikan karate kobudo and iaido. Unfortunately at that time Yosh wasn't teaching judo as I would have signed up for that one too.
I think this was probably because this is what Jan wanted. Hence this is what Yoshi’s students wanted. I mean Branco is a big competition karate person, so I don't imagine he isn’t a huge fan of Aikido. Similar to what you said about Roy.
I think this is one of the reasons I can walk into a judo dojo and fit it, were as they will heckle some other Aikido people. My experience was that they basically said see if what you do works.
Hence the reason I think this sort of judo cross training would help with an encounter with a BJJer.
Regards,
Interesting, we do all of the hip throws (O'Goshi, Uki Goshi, Harai Goshi, Hane Goshi etc) and like I said, Sensei Hans says he teaches us what he learnt from Yoshi.
Thing is although we had the karate, kenjutusu and judo elements in aikido we never really concentrated on any one of them for too long. It was always aikido. So I did separate classes in Yoseikan karate kobudo and iaido. Unfortunately at that time Yosh wasn't teaching judo as I would have signed up for that one too.
I think this was probably because this is what Jan wanted. Hence this is what Yoshi’s students wanted. I mean Branco is a big competition karate person, so I don't imagine he isn’t a huge fan of Aikido. Similar to what you said about Roy.
I think this is one of the reasons I can walk into a judo dojo and fit it, were as they will heckle some other Aikido people. My experience was that they basically said see if what you do works.
Hence the reason I think this sort of judo cross training would help with an encounter with a BJJer.
Regards,
bob_stra
09-07-2007, 01:45 PM
To stay on topic... I am yet to see a BJJ technique that I have not seen done by Mifune, or Kawaishi or in Kosen Judo. The techniques are nothing new to me. I would say there may be some slight difference, leading to variations etc.
Paging Mr Fooks....Mr Micheal Fooks...
In the mean time....enjoy this idiotically long thread
http://tinyurl.com/38sdk6
The info you're after is from Frank Benn, from post 430 onwards. I can't load the whole thing because it makes my browser crash!
Note: this is a very old thread....BJJ has since progressed.
Hence the reason I suggest judo to deal with BJJ. The standing techniques will also help your aikido, as will the fact that you get a resisting opponent.
(Remember we have to stay on topic ;))
Regards,
My overall recommendation would be for judo as well. Great standup, pretty good groundwork. With BJJ, there's a fair to middling chance you'd get little to no standing with great groundwork.
Horses for courses - YMMV
Paging Mr Fooks....Mr Micheal Fooks...
In the mean time....enjoy this idiotically long thread
http://tinyurl.com/38sdk6
The info you're after is from Frank Benn, from post 430 onwards. I can't load the whole thing because it makes my browser crash!
Note: this is a very old thread....BJJ has since progressed.
Hence the reason I suggest judo to deal with BJJ. The standing techniques will also help your aikido, as will the fact that you get a resisting opponent.
(Remember we have to stay on topic ;))
Regards,
My overall recommendation would be for judo as well. Great standup, pretty good groundwork. With BJJ, there's a fair to middling chance you'd get little to no standing with great groundwork.
Horses for courses - YMMV
Ron Tisdale
09-07-2007, 01:49 PM
In Reality, I know squat all about BJJ, but I've been told some of the major differences from judo are
Positional dominance
rules
transitional flow
Hey Bob, I wonder what ever happened to Frank Benn? He was a stalwart on the old rec.martial-arts, and I really liked his posts, even when I disagreed with his opinion.
Sounded like he was a monster in the dojo too, which never hurts! ;)
Best,
Ron
Positional dominance
rules
transitional flow
Hey Bob, I wonder what ever happened to Frank Benn? He was a stalwart on the old rec.martial-arts, and I really liked his posts, even when I disagreed with his opinion.
Sounded like he was a monster in the dojo too, which never hurts! ;)
Best,
Ron
bob_stra
09-07-2007, 02:10 PM
In Reality, I know squat all about BJJ, but I've been told some of the major differences from judo are
Positional dominance
rules
transitional flow
Hey Bob, I wonder what ever happened to Frank Benn? He was a stalwart on the old rec.martial-arts, and I really liked his posts, even when I disagreed with his opinion.
Sounded like he was a monster in the dojo too, which never hurts! ;)
Best,
Ron
Frank's still around
http://youtube.com/watch?v=C_zN1aWwZxM
though I don't see him on RMA much. Not that I go there much myself either.
Positional dominance
rules
transitional flow
Hey Bob, I wonder what ever happened to Frank Benn? He was a stalwart on the old rec.martial-arts, and I really liked his posts, even when I disagreed with his opinion.
Sounded like he was a monster in the dojo too, which never hurts! ;)
Best,
Ron
Frank's still around
http://youtube.com/watch?v=C_zN1aWwZxM
though I don't see him on RMA much. Not that I go there much myself either.
paw
09-07-2007, 09:04 PM
In Reality, I know squat all about BJJ, but I've been told some of the major differences from judo are
Positional dominance
rules
transitional flow
Arguably (depending on who you talk to) there may also be technical differences now, particularly with the folks who are focusing on bjj's application in the mma/submission wrestling sphere. Eddie Bravo's "rubber guard" comes to mind.
Regards,
Paul
Positional dominance
rules
transitional flow
Arguably (depending on who you talk to) there may also be technical differences now, particularly with the folks who are focusing on bjj's application in the mma/submission wrestling sphere. Eddie Bravo's "rubber guard" comes to mind.
Regards,
Paul
bob_stra
09-07-2007, 10:09 PM
Arguably (depending on who you talk to) there may also be technical differences now, particularly with the folks who are focusing on bjj's application in the mma/submission wrestling sphere. Eddie Bravo's "rubber guard" comes to mind.
Regards,
Paul
Paw, you need to get your butt over to the Geekground and answer my Cyttorak question, seeing Skarhead is AWOL :)
Ron
Yes, that's pretty much my feeling too.
Some very nice judo groundwork, in demo mode
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKq2ZUc2W68
Some very nice BJJ groundwork, in demo mode
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-oAWr4k1jw
There are much better examples on youtube, but I think this gives the flavour. Judo's newaza - AFAIK - is designed to flow on from a throw, break and arm, choke or pin an man, and end. Quickly. Prolonged ground battles were not the original intent?
Eg:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u41omoNO4U
Holmes wrote a good article on it that you might remember
http://www.bestjudo.com/article6.shtml
Like I said, horses for courses. But they are palpably different if you've tried both. Not to say that skills in one don't translate to the other - or to aikido.
Fooks is a good guy to talk about that, as he's Yudanshaka is aikido, blue (purple by now, surely?) in BJJ under John Will (awesome jits) and also has done some judo in his time (IIRC).
There was a fun thread on RMA recently re: BJJ or Judo for SD that may be of merit too re: differences
Regards,
Paul
Paw, you need to get your butt over to the Geekground and answer my Cyttorak question, seeing Skarhead is AWOL :)
Ron
Yes, that's pretty much my feeling too.
Some very nice judo groundwork, in demo mode
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKq2ZUc2W68
Some very nice BJJ groundwork, in demo mode
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-oAWr4k1jw
There are much better examples on youtube, but I think this gives the flavour. Judo's newaza - AFAIK - is designed to flow on from a throw, break and arm, choke or pin an man, and end. Quickly. Prolonged ground battles were not the original intent?
Eg:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u41omoNO4U
Holmes wrote a good article on it that you might remember
http://www.bestjudo.com/article6.shtml
Like I said, horses for courses. But they are palpably different if you've tried both. Not to say that skills in one don't translate to the other - or to aikido.
Fooks is a good guy to talk about that, as he's Yudanshaka is aikido, blue (purple by now, surely?) in BJJ under John Will (awesome jits) and also has done some judo in his time (IIRC).
There was a fun thread on RMA recently re: BJJ or Judo for SD that may be of merit too re: differences
Kevin Leavitt
09-08-2007, 09:43 AM
alot of this is like distilling Chess and Checkers down to the basic elements and then saying they are the same.
Both use the same basic board, have the same number of pieces, require two players, oppose each other the same way etc.
Yet they are two separate and distinct games. Many similarities, but different enough to make it apples and oranges and seem stupid to have one guy line up playing checkers and the other one chess and trying to beat each other!
Both use the same basic board, have the same number of pieces, require two players, oppose each other the same way etc.
Yet they are two separate and distinct games. Many similarities, but different enough to make it apples and oranges and seem stupid to have one guy line up playing checkers and the other one chess and trying to beat each other!
wildaikido
09-08-2007, 02:32 PM
I have one word for you...
Kimura!
Regards,
Kimura!
Regards,
paw
09-08-2007, 05:10 PM
Paw, you need to get your butt over to the Geekground and answer my Cyttorak question, seeing Skarhead is AWOL :)
LOL! I think Skarhead has answered it. Who are you on the GG?
Regards,
Paul
LOL! I think Skarhead has answered it. Who are you on the GG?
Regards,
Paul
Aristeia
09-09-2007, 07:30 AM
Paging Mr Fooks....Mr Micheal Fooks...
hey mate - sorry - just got back from the Will/Machado Nationals + Rigan seminar, so been off line. PM box is cleared.
wrt to everything in BJJ being in judo I believe the standard response is gogoplata no? I don't have more than a passing knowledge of judo but my impression is that while it's great (and there's a reason it's the standard respnse to the "what should I do" question on RMA) it's not as living as BJJ- where new techniques and strategies are being devleoped all the time. Whereas half guard used to be a last ditch attempt to stop the pass, there's now a dizzying array of attacking options. X-guard also comes to mind. The sheer volume of what's around in BJJ today that wasn't there even 4 years ago is boggling. Bravo's stuff comes to mind as well.
Good to see you back on this board bob.
hey mate - sorry - just got back from the Will/Machado Nationals + Rigan seminar, so been off line. PM box is cleared.
wrt to everything in BJJ being in judo I believe the standard response is gogoplata no? I don't have more than a passing knowledge of judo but my impression is that while it's great (and there's a reason it's the standard respnse to the "what should I do" question on RMA) it's not as living as BJJ- where new techniques and strategies are being devleoped all the time. Whereas half guard used to be a last ditch attempt to stop the pass, there's now a dizzying array of attacking options. X-guard also comes to mind. The sheer volume of what's around in BJJ today that wasn't there even 4 years ago is boggling. Bravo's stuff comes to mind as well.
Good to see you back on this board bob.
bob_stra
09-09-2007, 09:19 AM
Yes my feelings too
But
Oh, Michael....why gogoplata! Anything but gogo :(
http://judoinfo.com/images/shime/kagatojime.gif
http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2797
LOL...let's just pretend you said Rubber guard or X guard or something like that :) because the point is valid.
Anyway...I can't remember what I wanted to PM you about, so I guess wasn't that important :)
How was the seminar / Nat'ls? Has John had enough sense to grade you upto purple yet or what?
But
Oh, Michael....why gogoplata! Anything but gogo :(
http://judoinfo.com/images/shime/kagatojime.gif
http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2797
LOL...let's just pretend you said Rubber guard or X guard or something like that :) because the point is valid.
Anyway...I can't remember what I wanted to PM you about, so I guess wasn't that important :)
How was the seminar / Nat'ls? Has John had enough sense to grade you upto purple yet or what?
Aristeia
09-09-2007, 04:14 PM
heh didn't Gi and Ben Holmes go round on gogo a couple of years ago. I'm not sure it's entirely the same technique.
Weekend was awesome, good stuff from Rigan and we had a blast at the comp (although I didn't compete as recovering from hand surgery). One of my guys we've been waiting to unleash for a while on the comp circuit took out the White Heavyweight div. He spent a total of 2 mins 18 secs on the mat to do it.
I'm still a decent distance of purple so if John were to grade me to it I would run screaming from the room. Thankfully that's not likely in the near future, although my co club runner Glen can't be far imo.
Weekend was awesome, good stuff from Rigan and we had a blast at the comp (although I didn't compete as recovering from hand surgery). One of my guys we've been waiting to unleash for a while on the comp circuit took out the White Heavyweight div. He spent a total of 2 mins 18 secs on the mat to do it.
I'm still a decent distance of purple so if John were to grade me to it I would run screaming from the room. Thankfully that's not likely in the near future, although my co club runner Glen can't be far imo.
akiy
09-09-2007, 04:34 PM
Hi folks,
Can I please ask everyone to move personal discussions not pertaining to the thread discussion on-hand to private messaging or private e-mail?
Thank you,
-- Jun
Can I please ask everyone to move personal discussions not pertaining to the thread discussion on-hand to private messaging or private e-mail?
Thank you,
-- Jun
Ron Tisdale
09-11-2007, 10:53 AM
Thanks guys for the fill in on the differences. I think you are correct, there is so much growth in BJJ now due to the extreme testing it gets in the ring/octogon/whatever. Rubber guard is sooo wierd...don't think my knees could do that anymore...
B,
R
B,
R
Aristeia
09-11-2007, 12:16 PM
It's actually surprising that rubber guard doesn't take as much flexibility as you think. I"m not saying I use it a bunch but I've certainly threatened it from time to time and it's safe to say flexibility is not my strong point.
Keith R Lee
09-11-2007, 12:32 PM
I regularly use it, and it is a big part of my game. Like anything else, it takes lots of practice. Plus one needs to be pretty familiar with all the positions that it connects too. Bravo's book does a very good job of explaining how rubber guard-half guard-butterfly all work together. I don't use butterfly much, but I transition from rubber to half freely.
Rubber guard, x-guard, de la Riva, all of Marcello's new stuff with platas...BJJ, or rather submission grappling, is very much a constantly growing and evolving thing.
Rubber guard, x-guard, de la Riva, all of Marcello's new stuff with platas...BJJ, or rather submission grappling, is very much a constantly growing and evolving thing.
Budd
09-11-2007, 12:42 PM
You know, my closed guard game sucks, but I usually have better luck working from half to rubber to butterfly. I find I have better luck sinking into Mission Control when the other person is trying to hit me rather than just passing -- and I am the opposite of flexible.
DonMagee
09-11-2007, 08:09 PM
It is trivial to take a picture of myself doing any bjj movement, then use the appropriate judo name, which is usually just a description of what you are doing. That does not mean it is in judo. Likewise finding old pictures from 50+ years ago.
What is in judo is what the majority of judoka practice now. I can't say the majority practice anything like a gogoplata, hell most bjjers don't practice it.
What is in judo is what the majority of judoka practice now. I can't say the majority practice anything like a gogoplata, hell most bjjers don't practice it.
Aristeia
09-12-2007, 12:27 AM
good point Don. Otherwise we could claim Aikido has BJJ based on those pics of O'Sensei choking.
Also if Judo and BJJ had the same stuff you would expect no difference in how they perform in sports events.
Also if Judo and BJJ had the same stuff you would expect no difference in how they perform in sports events.
wildaikido
09-12-2007, 02:24 AM
good point Don. Otherwise we could claim Aikido has BJJ based on those pics of O'Sensei choking.
I just say Aikido has chokes...
I will agree that tactics and strategies have caused a divergence. I will clarify my point in that Helio Gracie invented nothing new. He is a great jujutsuka, but Rorion claims that his father changed and modified the techniques into something new. All of the techniques in the original syllabus of Gracie Jiu Jitsu can be found in judo, although not necessarily in the syllabus of the Kodokan.
The fact is, Kano took the strength out of Jujutsu in formulating Judo, so all techniques were based on leverage, and Maximum Efficiency with Minimum Effort, not Helio Gracie. I will reiterate that Helio Gracie is a great martial artist.
Indead MMA and UFC has changed the way these techniques are used in the ring or octagon.
Regards,
I just say Aikido has chokes...
I will agree that tactics and strategies have caused a divergence. I will clarify my point in that Helio Gracie invented nothing new. He is a great jujutsuka, but Rorion claims that his father changed and modified the techniques into something new. All of the techniques in the original syllabus of Gracie Jiu Jitsu can be found in judo, although not necessarily in the syllabus of the Kodokan.
The fact is, Kano took the strength out of Jujutsu in formulating Judo, so all techniques were based on leverage, and Maximum Efficiency with Minimum Effort, not Helio Gracie. I will reiterate that Helio Gracie is a great martial artist.
Indead MMA and UFC has changed the way these techniques are used in the ring or octagon.
Regards,
Aristeia
09-12-2007, 04:49 AM
The fact is, Kano took the strength out of Jujutsu in formulating Judo, so all techniques were based on leverage, and Maximum Efficiency with Minimum Effort, not Helio Gracie. I will reiterate that Helio Gracie is a great martial artist.
Indead MMA and UFC has changed the way these techniques are used in the ring or octagon.
Regards,Helio didn't invent BJJ
Indead MMA and UFC has changed the way these techniques are used in the ring or octagon.
Regards,Helio didn't invent BJJ
wildaikido
09-12-2007, 07:01 AM
Helio didn't invent BJJ
Is that a statement of fact?
If so that is my point. I didn't make my point correctly before, I was talking about what Helio Gracie did with Gracie Jiu Jitsu.
Regards,
Is that a statement of fact?
If so that is my point. I didn't make my point correctly before, I was talking about what Helio Gracie did with Gracie Jiu Jitsu.
Regards,
Kevin Leavitt
09-12-2007, 05:26 PM
It is semantics for sure to say that anyone invented anything. What I think they did do is breath "life" back into something that was pretty much dead or dying...that is...the art of jujitsu.
They did it in such a way that it could be reasonably acceptable for modern people to practice without hurting one another.
From that we see a re-birth in Submission grappling, catch as catch can, greco-roman, among other forms of unarmed and competitive forms of martial art.
BJJ or GJJ is separate and distinct from judo, aikido or any of the other DO arts the emerged in the late 1800 to mid 1900s. Not so much in the techniques...but the paradigm of how you look at and apply those techniques.
BJJ has it's criticisms, my MMA instructor is a good one to demonstrate the how the parochial mindset in BJJ can get you in trouble. There are many things that BJJ does that will identify you as a BJJer in a grappling situation...many have learned to defeat or exploit those things....guys like Eddie Bravo are proving it.
What is for sure, the Gracie's changed how we train in jujitsu. That cannot be disputed.
They did it in such a way that it could be reasonably acceptable for modern people to practice without hurting one another.
From that we see a re-birth in Submission grappling, catch as catch can, greco-roman, among other forms of unarmed and competitive forms of martial art.
BJJ or GJJ is separate and distinct from judo, aikido or any of the other DO arts the emerged in the late 1800 to mid 1900s. Not so much in the techniques...but the paradigm of how you look at and apply those techniques.
BJJ has it's criticisms, my MMA instructor is a good one to demonstrate the how the parochial mindset in BJJ can get you in trouble. There are many things that BJJ does that will identify you as a BJJer in a grappling situation...many have learned to defeat or exploit those things....guys like Eddie Bravo are proving it.
What is for sure, the Gracie's changed how we train in jujitsu. That cannot be disputed.
DonMagee
09-13-2007, 06:06 AM
It is semantics for sure to say that anyone invented anything. What I think they did do is breath "life" back into something that was pretty much dead or dying...that is...the art of jujitsu.
They did it in such a way that it could be reasonably acceptable for modern people to practice without hurting one another.
From that we see a re-birth in Submission grappling, catch as catch can, greco-roman, among other forms of unarmed and competitive forms of martial art.
BJJ or GJJ is separate and distinct from judo, aikido or any of the other DO arts the emerged in the late 1800 to mid 1900s. Not so much in the techniques...but the paradigm of how you look at and apply those techniques.
BJJ has it's criticisms, my MMA instructor is a good one to demonstrate the how the parochial mindset in BJJ can get you in trouble. There are many things that BJJ does that will identify you as a BJJer in a grappling situation...many have learned to defeat or exploit those things....guys like Eddie Bravo are proving it.
What is for sure, the Gracie's changed how we train in jujitsu. That cannot be disputed.
Very well said!
Of course the judo guys will never agree with you, it's just bad judo right?
They did it in such a way that it could be reasonably acceptable for modern people to practice without hurting one another.
From that we see a re-birth in Submission grappling, catch as catch can, greco-roman, among other forms of unarmed and competitive forms of martial art.
BJJ or GJJ is separate and distinct from judo, aikido or any of the other DO arts the emerged in the late 1800 to mid 1900s. Not so much in the techniques...but the paradigm of how you look at and apply those techniques.
BJJ has it's criticisms, my MMA instructor is a good one to demonstrate the how the parochial mindset in BJJ can get you in trouble. There are many things that BJJ does that will identify you as a BJJer in a grappling situation...many have learned to defeat or exploit those things....guys like Eddie Bravo are proving it.
What is for sure, the Gracie's changed how we train in jujitsu. That cannot be disputed.
Very well said!
Of course the judo guys will never agree with you, it's just bad judo right?
bob_stra
09-13-2007, 08:32 AM
Very well said!
Of course the judo guys will never agree with you, it's just bad judo right?
:D
I still run into 'That's just Judo' on the mat. Like Mike, I no longer talk about BJJ on the judo mat - partially because my jits isn't that great to begin with :)
Of course the judo guys will never agree with you, it's just bad judo right?
:D
I still run into 'That's just Judo' on the mat. Like Mike, I no longer talk about BJJ on the judo mat - partially because my jits isn't that great to begin with :)
DonMagee
09-13-2007, 01:22 PM
:D
I still run into 'That's just Judo' on the mat. Like Mike, I no longer talk about BJJ on the judo mat - partially because my jits isn't that great to begin with :)
It usually goes like this for me.
We finally get around to doing some matwork in judo, after the match someone will ask "Why are you so good at matwork, when do you practice?" I respond, "Oh I do that 3-4 days a week". Then they ask where. I mention a bjj club. They say "But why, it's just all ripped off judo anyways.". Then I point out I'm better on the mat then they are, and argument begins.
I still run into 'That's just Judo' on the mat. Like Mike, I no longer talk about BJJ on the judo mat - partially because my jits isn't that great to begin with :)
It usually goes like this for me.
We finally get around to doing some matwork in judo, after the match someone will ask "Why are you so good at matwork, when do you practice?" I respond, "Oh I do that 3-4 days a week". Then they ask where. I mention a bjj club. They say "But why, it's just all ripped off judo anyways.". Then I point out I'm better on the mat then they are, and argument begins.
bob_stra
09-13-2007, 02:16 PM
It usually goes like this for me.
We finally get around to doing some matwork in judo, after the match someone will ask "Why are you so good at matwork, when do you practice?" I respond, "Oh I do that 3-4 days a week". Then they ask where. I mention a bjj club. They say "But why, it's just all ripped off judo anyways.". Then I point out I'm better on the mat then they are, and argument begins.
There's a 'parable' about falling into holes that your post reminds me of :D
http://www.seniorsapprove.com/autobiography.html
Don't ask, don't tell isn't just for the US army :)
We finally get around to doing some matwork in judo, after the match someone will ask "Why are you so good at matwork, when do you practice?" I respond, "Oh I do that 3-4 days a week". Then they ask where. I mention a bjj club. They say "But why, it's just all ripped off judo anyways.". Then I point out I'm better on the mat then they are, and argument begins.
There's a 'parable' about falling into holes that your post reminds me of :D
http://www.seniorsapprove.com/autobiography.html
Don't ask, don't tell isn't just for the US army :)
Kevin Leavitt
09-13-2007, 10:02 PM
In Germany I have a "arch rival" in GI submission fighter. A 45 Year Old 5 Dan, former Olympian Judoka.
I have a wonderful video that I should post of our first encounter a few years back when we matched up as white belts. Me with a couple of months of BJJ and my years of Aikido training, him with no BJJ and all his years of Judo.
Needless to say, he basically "ipponed" me to the ground, dominated me for the whole match...but had no clue how to submit me, so I laid there, countered, and tried to escape. Eventually I did, slipping out the back door into the rear mount for rear naked choke.
Out next match a year later, I walked up, shook hands, got the Shite, then went straight for my knees to fight him. He asked what I was doing...I said, well you ain't gonna get the takedown this time! :)
When then proceeded to fight and have fun....I forget who won that one now!
Anyway, my point is...He'd cream me in Judo rules, yet we are equals when it come to BJJ and submission fighitng.
BJJ and judo while related, are different enough to make a huge difference in strategy and approach.
Most BJJ guys I know are getting with strong Judo guys these days to learn how to improve takedowns...same with greco roman guys.
As guys get better at BJJ, you have to develop an edge. I see takedowns becoming more and more important in determining the outcome of the fight as more and more people get better and nullifying the positional advantage on the ground.
Watch the UFC over the years...you see the migration in what is working follow the same patern.
My MMA instructor in Germany, crazy as it sounds believes it is only a matter of time before Yoga will enter into the equation taking things almost full circle as have core strength, control, and flexibility, as being the leading reason for someone having an edge.
Discussions with Mike Sigman and Rob also seem to gravitate to what they call internal skills as also giving an edge to things in MMA in the future.
It is a wonderful time to see Martial arts developing and mature! A far cry from where we were 20 years ago!
I have a wonderful video that I should post of our first encounter a few years back when we matched up as white belts. Me with a couple of months of BJJ and my years of Aikido training, him with no BJJ and all his years of Judo.
Needless to say, he basically "ipponed" me to the ground, dominated me for the whole match...but had no clue how to submit me, so I laid there, countered, and tried to escape. Eventually I did, slipping out the back door into the rear mount for rear naked choke.
Out next match a year later, I walked up, shook hands, got the Shite, then went straight for my knees to fight him. He asked what I was doing...I said, well you ain't gonna get the takedown this time! :)
When then proceeded to fight and have fun....I forget who won that one now!
Anyway, my point is...He'd cream me in Judo rules, yet we are equals when it come to BJJ and submission fighitng.
BJJ and judo while related, are different enough to make a huge difference in strategy and approach.
Most BJJ guys I know are getting with strong Judo guys these days to learn how to improve takedowns...same with greco roman guys.
As guys get better at BJJ, you have to develop an edge. I see takedowns becoming more and more important in determining the outcome of the fight as more and more people get better and nullifying the positional advantage on the ground.
Watch the UFC over the years...you see the migration in what is working follow the same patern.
My MMA instructor in Germany, crazy as it sounds believes it is only a matter of time before Yoga will enter into the equation taking things almost full circle as have core strength, control, and flexibility, as being the leading reason for someone having an edge.
Discussions with Mike Sigman and Rob also seem to gravitate to what they call internal skills as also giving an edge to things in MMA in the future.
It is a wonderful time to see Martial arts developing and mature! A far cry from where we were 20 years ago!
Stefan Stenudd
09-28-2007, 04:57 AM
Usually, I avoid these kinds of threads. They seem not to be that :ai: :ki:... But what the hell, I have time on my hand, at the moment, and avoiding questions is never an answer.
So, here are my limping thoughts, pure specualtions:
I am sure that BJJ is like any martial art: people having fun together in training, enjoying their mutual improvements, and exploring the intricate "chess game" of friendly battle. So, no reason to immediately assume the need for self defense brutality. I prefer to think of it as something in the dojo, and not in the street. Most martial artists don't pick fights in streets.
So, in the dojo, then:
To me, BJJ is a lot like judo's newaza, ground work. Skilled judoka are very good at it, because they practice it a lot. BJJ athletes, too, maybe even more so, since that's about all they do.
A weakness of aikido, in comparison, is that we practice so much - standing, seated, weapons, several attackers, all kinds of attacks... We cannot be as skilled on any of those parts, as somebody can when specializing.
Therefore, the aikidoka should try not to get down on ground, but stay up, where the BJJ athelete is not as trained. Of course, that's easier said than done :)
Also, the techniques applied should be those applicable at a bigger distance than the one normal to grappling - a wrist technique on an extended hand, and so on. The timing should be early, not waiting for any kind of clinch.
And one should be very wary about trying a seated pinning. It is very difficult to pin a judoka, and surely also a BJJ athlete. On the other hand, we hardly practice standing-up pinnings at all.
Maybe the best strategy would be standing-up throwing techniques only, until the class is over? Such as kotegaeshi, and kokyunage on a sankyo grip, and other throws that are initiated at a distance on an extended arm.
Occasionally, we do some suwari-sumo, newaza, or what you want to call it, in my dojo. I try to find the aiki way of doing it, and find it to be very rewarding training, indeed. I recommend it. Aikido is a set of principles, not certain techniques or fighting forms, so these principles can be applied to any style of martial art, modifying it - and, I would like to think, improving it.
Generally speaking, there is no martial art so superior that a beginner of it can defeat an advanced practicioner of another art. So, the one who is the best at his or her art will most probably succeed.
So, here are my limping thoughts, pure specualtions:
I am sure that BJJ is like any martial art: people having fun together in training, enjoying their mutual improvements, and exploring the intricate "chess game" of friendly battle. So, no reason to immediately assume the need for self defense brutality. I prefer to think of it as something in the dojo, and not in the street. Most martial artists don't pick fights in streets.
So, in the dojo, then:
To me, BJJ is a lot like judo's newaza, ground work. Skilled judoka are very good at it, because they practice it a lot. BJJ athletes, too, maybe even more so, since that's about all they do.
A weakness of aikido, in comparison, is that we practice so much - standing, seated, weapons, several attackers, all kinds of attacks... We cannot be as skilled on any of those parts, as somebody can when specializing.
Therefore, the aikidoka should try not to get down on ground, but stay up, where the BJJ athelete is not as trained. Of course, that's easier said than done :)
Also, the techniques applied should be those applicable at a bigger distance than the one normal to grappling - a wrist technique on an extended hand, and so on. The timing should be early, not waiting for any kind of clinch.
And one should be very wary about trying a seated pinning. It is very difficult to pin a judoka, and surely also a BJJ athlete. On the other hand, we hardly practice standing-up pinnings at all.
Maybe the best strategy would be standing-up throwing techniques only, until the class is over? Such as kotegaeshi, and kokyunage on a sankyo grip, and other throws that are initiated at a distance on an extended arm.
Occasionally, we do some suwari-sumo, newaza, or what you want to call it, in my dojo. I try to find the aiki way of doing it, and find it to be very rewarding training, indeed. I recommend it. Aikido is a set of principles, not certain techniques or fighting forms, so these principles can be applied to any style of martial art, modifying it - and, I would like to think, improving it.
Generally speaking, there is no martial art so superior that a beginner of it can defeat an advanced practicioner of another art. So, the one who is the best at his or her art will most probably succeed.
Aristeia
09-28-2007, 05:44 AM
Generally speaking, there is no martial art so superior that a beginner of it can defeat an advanced practicioner of another art. Define beginner and define advanced....
Stefan Stenudd
09-28-2007, 06:20 AM
Define beginner and define advanced....
Is that really necessary?
Well, let's say somebody who has trained for three months, and somebody who has trained for five years. Whatever :)
Is that really necessary?
Well, let's say somebody who has trained for three months, and somebody who has trained for five years. Whatever :)
DonMagee
09-28-2007, 07:21 AM
Is that really necessary?
Well, let's say somebody who has trained for three months, and somebody who has trained for five years. Whatever :)
I agree that if you play by that arts rules, a judo guy will be at a huge disadvantage in a boxing match, etc. But that is where mma type sparing comes in. It allows you to actually see how your skills fair against another person in a very open ruleset that allows all kinds of skills to shine. Then the question becomes, why can a 3 month boxer beat a 5 year tkd guy in this ruleset? (just pulling an example out of thin air)
Well, let's say somebody who has trained for three months, and somebody who has trained for five years. Whatever :)
I agree that if you play by that arts rules, a judo guy will be at a huge disadvantage in a boxing match, etc. But that is where mma type sparing comes in. It allows you to actually see how your skills fair against another person in a very open ruleset that allows all kinds of skills to shine. Then the question becomes, why can a 3 month boxer beat a 5 year tkd guy in this ruleset? (just pulling an example out of thin air)
Stefan Stenudd
09-28-2007, 09:30 AM
Then the question becomes, why can a 3 month boxer beat a 5 year tkd guy in this ruleset? (just pulling an example out of thin air)
I have not seen it happen, so I have to answer in principle.
In principle, such things can be explained by the rules used. The one whom the rules fit the best, has a significant advantage that can exceed the advantage of longer training.
Of course, I mean both the rules of the match in questions, and the rules that each combattant is most experienced with.
One interesting consequence of it is that the martial art with the less limiting rules should benefit. Aikido is way up there :)
I have not seen it happen, so I have to answer in principle.
In principle, such things can be explained by the rules used. The one whom the rules fit the best, has a significant advantage that can exceed the advantage of longer training.
Of course, I mean both the rules of the match in questions, and the rules that each combattant is most experienced with.
One interesting consequence of it is that the martial art with the less limiting rules should benefit. Aikido is way up there :)
Ron Tisdale
09-28-2007, 10:02 AM
Hi Stefan,
My experiences disagrees somewhat. I think the MA that contains frequent training with active resistance has the edge. If both MAs have this, then it comes down to the rule set...I'd probably give the one with the least restrictive rule set (for resistance training) the edge.
There can be notable exceptions however...but I don't think I can give specifics here.
Best,
Ron
My experiences disagrees somewhat. I think the MA that contains frequent training with active resistance has the edge. If both MAs have this, then it comes down to the rule set...I'd probably give the one with the least restrictive rule set (for resistance training) the edge.
There can be notable exceptions however...but I don't think I can give specifics here.
Best,
Ron
DonMagee
09-28-2007, 11:01 AM
I have not seen it happen, so I have to answer in principle.
In principle, such things can be explained by the rules used. The one whom the rules fit the best, has a significant advantage that can exceed the advantage of longer training.
Of course, I mean both the rules of the match in questions, and the rules that each combattant is most experienced with.
One interesting consequence of it is that the martial art with the less limiting rules should benefit. Aikido is way up there :)
I have seen it. I've seen guys with much less training take out much more experienced opponents. They do it by taking them out of their element. I've seen guys with 0 MMA training, walk into the ring and destroy guys who have spent years training just for mma. Why did they win? Strength, aggression, pain tolerance, etc. Look at the begining UFC for good examples. Nobody was training for the UFC, so nobody was prepared. What mattered was not the rules (they were almost non-existant) but if you could force your opponent to play your game. If you can do that, then you win.
This is the area bjj used to excel at. They can make people play their game. People are wiser now, and it is tougher. This is why I'm a fan of judo, most people will clinch with you without hesitation, then you throw them and have your way with them.
You speak of rules, yet refer to aikido as having no rules. While this is true in theory, in practice if you look, this is not true. Can you eye gouge your partner? Can you break his arm? Can you kick him in the groin? If you look, truly without sparing there are more rules in what you can't do. If rules are truly the limiting factor, then it is an easy fix to make the best martial art. I of course do not believe this, I think it is the method of practice, not the competition rules that make a good fighter. judo, boxing, mauy thai, some karates, bjj, etc all have great methods of practice that lead to very useful and quickly developed (years instead of decades) skills.
In principle, such things can be explained by the rules used. The one whom the rules fit the best, has a significant advantage that can exceed the advantage of longer training.
Of course, I mean both the rules of the match in questions, and the rules that each combattant is most experienced with.
One interesting consequence of it is that the martial art with the less limiting rules should benefit. Aikido is way up there :)
I have seen it. I've seen guys with much less training take out much more experienced opponents. They do it by taking them out of their element. I've seen guys with 0 MMA training, walk into the ring and destroy guys who have spent years training just for mma. Why did they win? Strength, aggression, pain tolerance, etc. Look at the begining UFC for good examples. Nobody was training for the UFC, so nobody was prepared. What mattered was not the rules (they were almost non-existant) but if you could force your opponent to play your game. If you can do that, then you win.
This is the area bjj used to excel at. They can make people play their game. People are wiser now, and it is tougher. This is why I'm a fan of judo, most people will clinch with you without hesitation, then you throw them and have your way with them.
You speak of rules, yet refer to aikido as having no rules. While this is true in theory, in practice if you look, this is not true. Can you eye gouge your partner? Can you break his arm? Can you kick him in the groin? If you look, truly without sparing there are more rules in what you can't do. If rules are truly the limiting factor, then it is an easy fix to make the best martial art. I of course do not believe this, I think it is the method of practice, not the competition rules that make a good fighter. judo, boxing, mauy thai, some karates, bjj, etc all have great methods of practice that lead to very useful and quickly developed (years instead of decades) skills.
Stefan Stenudd
09-28-2007, 12:10 PM
DonMagee, I agree with you more than I guess you would expect ;)
What you say about "inexperienced" contestants winning against experienced ones, is an example of what I tried to introduce. There is no system of techniques, no martial art per se, that guarantees victory. As Einstein told us, it's all relative :)
About making the opponent play your game, Musashi spoke about this in his Go Rin no Sho. He talked about rhythm - how to make the opponent follow your rhythm, and how you should not follow his, and so on.
The mental aspects are of vast importance in any martial art - also in between them.
About rules, I did not say that aikido has none, not at all. I said "less limiting", by which I mean that aikido is a martial art where all kinds of attacks and situations are trained. Of course, that is also the problem: there is not enough time to get good at all of it.
But if we really look for an optimal martial art, I believe that specialization is not the key. A wide "curriculum" and the ability to adapt will prevail. But that takes time.
What you say about "inexperienced" contestants winning against experienced ones, is an example of what I tried to introduce. There is no system of techniques, no martial art per se, that guarantees victory. As Einstein told us, it's all relative :)
About making the opponent play your game, Musashi spoke about this in his Go Rin no Sho. He talked about rhythm - how to make the opponent follow your rhythm, and how you should not follow his, and so on.
The mental aspects are of vast importance in any martial art - also in between them.
About rules, I did not say that aikido has none, not at all. I said "less limiting", by which I mean that aikido is a martial art where all kinds of attacks and situations are trained. Of course, that is also the problem: there is not enough time to get good at all of it.
But if we really look for an optimal martial art, I believe that specialization is not the key. A wide "curriculum" and the ability to adapt will prevail. But that takes time.
Stefan Stenudd
09-28-2007, 12:22 PM
I'd probably give the one with the least restrictive rule set (for resistance training) the edge.
Hi Ron,
I think you are quite right about resistance training improving martial arts skills. In some aikido training, this is all but ignored. In many martial arts, resistance is regulated in detail, or very limited in some way.
To learn martial arts, one must try to understand the dynamics of attack and defense. Normally, both combattants are attackers and defenders throughout.
Again, I am reminded of Musashi's Go Rin no Sho, where he says about the feared bandit hiding in a house that the people outside are afraid to enter. They should realize that the bandit is equally afraid of them.
In aikido, many uke have the wrong attitude in attacking, because they exclude the possibility of tori attacking them (with anything other than an aikido technique). So, they position themselves vulnerably, or sometimes they resist in a way that would hardly be done by somebody alert to the possibility of tori forgetting about aikido and striking instead. And so on...
Nevertheless, in aikido the goal is very different from defeating an opponent, so the above is of limited significance. I'm just rambling :)
Hi Ron,
I think you are quite right about resistance training improving martial arts skills. In some aikido training, this is all but ignored. In many martial arts, resistance is regulated in detail, or very limited in some way.
To learn martial arts, one must try to understand the dynamics of attack and defense. Normally, both combattants are attackers and defenders throughout.
Again, I am reminded of Musashi's Go Rin no Sho, where he says about the feared bandit hiding in a house that the people outside are afraid to enter. They should realize that the bandit is equally afraid of them.
In aikido, many uke have the wrong attitude in attacking, because they exclude the possibility of tori attacking them (with anything other than an aikido technique). So, they position themselves vulnerably, or sometimes they resist in a way that would hardly be done by somebody alert to the possibility of tori forgetting about aikido and striking instead. And so on...
Nevertheless, in aikido the goal is very different from defeating an opponent, so the above is of limited significance. I'm just rambling :)
Ron Tisdale
09-28-2007, 12:35 PM
Good ramble. Do more... :D
B,
R
B,
R
gregg block
09-28-2007, 04:29 PM
...
Nevertheless, in aikido the goal is very different from defeating an opponent,
NOT THE ONLY GOAL, BUT MIGHT WANT IT TO BE ONE OF THEM IF THE SITUATION DICTATES!
Nevertheless, in aikido the goal is very different from defeating an opponent,
NOT THE ONLY GOAL, BUT MIGHT WANT IT TO BE ONE OF THEM IF THE SITUATION DICTATES!
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