PDA

View Full Version : What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker


Pages : [1] 2

Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


Tijani1150
05-26-2007, 06:44 PM
I have lately been coming across much boasting by the Brazilian Jujitsu practioners about their grappling techniques and claims that no martial art would stand a chance once you are on the ground how ever there must be more than one Aikido technique which if applied in that second the Brazilian Jujitsu fighter reaches with his hand to grab would neutralize the whole attack so what is it in your opinion?

Aristeia
05-26-2007, 06:50 PM
do you imagine yourself being attacked by a BJJer in the near future? If not, what does it matter?

Tijani1150
05-26-2007, 07:25 PM
do you imagine yourself being attacked by a BJJer

Do I imagine myself being attacked by a BJJer?

Given the rate BJJ is growing at makes the possibility very high in case of any attack.

If not, what does it matter?

Learning/exploring and knowing how to deal with different situations dose matter to me and should do to any martial artrist.

Adam Alexander
05-26-2007, 07:28 PM
I have lately been coming across much boasting by the Brazilian Jujitsu practioners about their grappling techniques and claims that no martial art would stand a chance once you are on the ground how ever there must be more than one Aikido technique which if applied in that second the Brazilian Jujitsu fighter reaches with his hand to grab would neutralize the whole attack so what is it in your opinion?

Strike to the throat or other vital point. Break a finger or wrist. EDIT: Or elbow or shoulder...

Aristeia
05-26-2007, 07:33 PM
Learning/exploring and knowing how to deal with different situations dose matter to me and should do to any martial artrist.In that case this is the best piece of advice I can give you. If you want to beat a grappler, you need to learn to grapple. Simple. BJJers train in a different way, with a different mindset and with different goals to most Aikidoka. The result is in a true application they are likely to have more functional tools availible to them. Or it may be better to say their tools have become more functionalised.

Tijani1150
05-26-2007, 07:45 PM
In that case this is the best piece of advice I can give you. If you want to beat a grappler, you need to learn to grapple. Simple. BJJers train in a different way, with a different mindset and with different goals to most Aikidoka. The result is in a true application they are likely to have more functional tools availible to them. Or it may be better to say their tools have become more functionalised.

I appriciate your advice Michael however my intention is to hear opinions on how to deal with it from an Aikido perspective I believe Aikido has the tools/techniques to neutralize the whole attack at its begining if applied in good time.

Aristeia
05-26-2007, 07:50 PM
this is a bit like a "punchers chance" In other words you have some possibility of success if you get everything just right at just the right time. The chances of that happening in the chaos of a fight is pretty slim.

Adam Alexander
05-26-2007, 07:54 PM
this is a bit like a "punchers chance" In other words you have some possibility of success if you get everything just right at just the right time. The chances of that happening in the chaos of a fight is pretty slim.

Not for me...but of course, that all depends on how you train and how you catch on.

Mary Turner
05-26-2007, 08:23 PM
I agree, Jean.
If you are relaxed and aware of openings, you can work wrist techniques on an ankle, execute sokomen while lying under an attacker (for example), you can flow and be flexible if you train hard and often.

Renzo Roncal Soto
05-26-2007, 08:49 PM
Sprawl and more sprawl, after that, try to break some finger I think (remember that, we do not have rules or judges). They have the same skill that we to protect to complex parts like arms and legs.. Respect to the blows, i believe that the UFC already demonstrated that they are not so efficient with them.
I think that our greater weapon is to always attack his attack (irimi) leaving its trajectory of entrance, always.

PD: And now, to sweeten the situation, How to neutralize to a Aikidoka? :rolleyes:

Michael Varin
05-26-2007, 08:51 PM
I have lately been coming across much boasting by the Brazilian Jujitsu practioners about their grappling techniques and claims that no martial art would stand a chance once you are on the ground how ever there must be more than one Aikido technique which if applied in that second the Brazilian Jujitsu fighter reaches with his hand to grab would neutralize the whole attack so what is it in your opinion?

Try a technique with your knife or sword, any weapon really. The BJJer will be scared and confused, and if he grabs your arm(s) use aikido techniques. . . that's what they are for, if he never attempts to control your arms stab, or cut him repeatedly. (Disclaimer: I do not advocate the use of violence unless it is for self-defense. The above example is for illustrative purposes only.)

If you want to beat a grappler, you need to learn to grapple. Simple. BJJers train in a different way, with a different mindset and with different goals to most Aikidoka. The result is in a true application they are likely to have more functional tools availible to them. Or it may be better to say their tools have become more functionalised.

Or you can use your weapon against him. Jujutsu wasn't that important to the samurai. I wonder why?

Murgen
05-26-2007, 11:09 PM
First off. Honestly, I doubt any high ranking BJJ is going around looking to submit Aikidoka or picking fights to show off to their friends.. Although I do notice more thug like mentality in some lower rank BJJ practioners.

If your gonna be fighting a BJJ in his game......better learn some BJJ!! I think that is the only way to learn defense and what NOT to do in that situation. If they grab you and take you down your in big trouble. BJJ people have great endurance so don't expect them to tire before you. I think Aikidoka would tire first generally.

Learn to sprawl. Atemi with Knees to the face, elbows etc.. Learn to move (which as an Aikidoka you should be comfortable with). Keep moving is your best defense probably. A good rocking knee to the face as they come in...would probably end it right there. If you miss, your screwed. Eye gouges...ear grabs. Eyes are eyes and soft tissue is soft tissue. Doesn't matter what art you do. If your being attacked and your life is in danger..no holds barred until you feel you can safely deal with the attacker. At that point, no need to be brutal.

Lastly, and this is somewhat tongue in cheek but a criticism I've seen of BJJ. BJJ isn't very effective against more than 1 person! Kind of hard for them to submit you if your buddy is tap dancing on their head with a steel toe boot. BJJ really falls short on the multiple attacker scenario side. At least Aikidoka train for it. Whether you can actually pull it off is another story, but at least Aikido aknowledges that if your attacked it usually is by more than one person in a street situation.

I think overall Aikido is a better package than BJJ in the sense of atemi-waza, flowing movement, multiple attacker scenarios, weapons, and spiritual awareness. After 35....who needs the injuries!! I would be bored and a little uncomfortable rolling around on a mat with a sweaty neanderthal for 2 hours.

Aristeia
05-27-2007, 05:10 AM
Not for me...but of course, that all depends on how you train and how you catch on.*sigh* we've been round this block before neh.

Aristeia
05-27-2007, 05:13 AM
I agree, Jean.
If you are relaxed and aware of openings, you can work wrist techniques on an ankle, execute sokomen while lying under an attacker (for example), you can flow and be flexible if you train hard and often.
Mary, can I ask how many BJJers you've worked out with and what level they were?

Aristeia
05-27-2007, 05:15 AM
PD: And now, to sweeten the situation, How to neutralize to a Aikidoka? :rolleyes:easy - don't attack :D

Aristeia
05-27-2007, 05:22 AM
BJJ people have great endurance If only that were true! Eye gouges...ear grabs. Eyes are eyes and soft tissue is soft tissue. Doesn't matter what art you do. If your being attacked and your life is in danger..no holds barred until you feel you can safely deal with the attacker. At that point, no need to be brutal. It is worth pointing out that the so called "dirty" techniques are going to be much more likely to be delivered by the person dominating position. If you're on the ground that is likely to be the BJJer


I think overall Aikido is a better package than BJJ

hmm.....
I would say
Aikido is a better package than BJJ.
I would also say
BJJ is a better package than Aikido.

Which one I would say at any given moment depends on what comes after "and by better, I mean better for......"

After 35....who needs the injuries!! Beleive it or not I and many of my guys have found BJJ to be less injury prone than Aikido I would be bored and a little uncomfortable rolling around on a mat with a sweaty neanderthal for 2 hours.I'm sure you didn't mean this to be as offensive as it came across?

Amir Krause
05-27-2007, 06:04 AM
Sorry, but the question is stupid:
How would he attack you?

There is more then one option for BJJ people to attack, and your response should vary based on the situation. Obviously, you would not like to get to the ground, and keep the fight in the circumstances you are comfortable with.

Note, that standup BJJ is ery similiar to Aikido at least from the technical point, so you could probabl ask the same question of an Aikidoka.

Amir

Chuck.Gordon
05-27-2007, 06:36 AM
Jujutsu wasn't that important to the samurai. I wonder why?

Well, sort of, not exactly. Jujutsu as practiced in most ryuha was integral to the core art and was usually a subset of techniques within a sword, spear or other armed art. And it was usually practiced ith a weapon in the obi or in the hand as well.

BJJ'ers: BJJ is judo groundwork, refined and simplified. All body arts share a certain set of principles. The techniques may differ, but the principles remain in effect. Remember, gravity is your friend, and if you can, hit 'em with the biggest thing you can -- the earth.

It also helps to learn a little grappling, so that the mat, as well as gravity, becomes your friend ... or at least friendly territory.

dps
05-27-2007, 06:40 AM
... I believe Aikido has the tools/techniques to neutralize the whole attack at its begining if applied in good time.

Okay, what would you do?

David

Renzo Roncal Soto
05-27-2007, 08:01 AM
easy - don't attack :D
yea.., make to he attack first ? :p

Sorry, but the question is stupid:
How would he attack you?
if it is by strategy, aikidoka would have to attack first.

... that standup BJJ is ery similiar to Aikido at least from the technical point
Yes, that is very certain, we are very near relatives, start from a a same technical base, only we have moved away in the form, but the bottom is the same one.

so you could probabl ask the same question of an Aikidoka.
certain, and already I did it :cool:

Keith R Lee
05-27-2007, 08:47 AM
I think what we really need is some sort of automated bot for the message board. As soon as it detects any sort of "Aikido vs BJJ" post it deletes it then forwards the poster the dozens of threads that already exist on the topic.

--

Anthony:

I think overall Aikido is a better package than BJJ in the sense of atemi-waza, flowing movement, multiple attacker scenarios, weapons, and spiritual awareness. After 35....who needs the injuries!! I would be bored and a little uncomfortable rolling around on a mat with a sweaty neanderthal for 2 hours.

One, as Michael said, that's rather insulting. Two, your attitude and comments come across as completely ignorant of what BJJ is all about. I'd also agree with Michael in that I have found there to be far fewer injuries in BJJ than Aikido.

In regards to the question at hand, who cares? Why is someone trained in BJJ going to "attack" you? How are the going to attack you? It's not like there is one singular attack that BJJers perform. I'm assuming your actually asking: "what should I do when a guy shoots in for my legs?" The answer is: go to a BJJ/MMA/Sambo/Wrestling gym and they'll show you what to do (short answer: sprawl, whizzer, knees to the face). You'll get a basic understanding of what to do, be satisfied with that. However be aware that, more than likely, if someone wants to take you down, they will. If the the person going for the shoot grew up wrestling here in the States, forget it, game over, they are taking you down.

jennifer paige smith
05-27-2007, 10:14 AM
In that case this is the best piece of advice I can give you. If you want to beat a grappler, you need to learn to grapple. Simple. BJJers train in a different way, with a different mindset and with different goals to most Aikidoka. The result is in a true application they are likely to have more functional tools availible to them. Or it may be better to say their tools have become more functionalised.

In the early part of the latter century there was an intense and rivalrous competition between Brazilian Jujitsu and Japanese Jujitsu. The Brazilians had been practicing in realtive isolation, developing jujitsu to meet their own culture and standards, boasting all the while that they were undefeatable. A match was finally called between the Brailiain team and the Japanese team headed by a sensei named Kimura. After rounds and rounds among the sempai, some leading to near death and broken bones, all appeared to be realtively equal. The event culminated in a fight between Kimura and the Brazilian Teacher that almost lead to death in the first match. The match was stopped. It was restarted just a short while later. In the middle of the heated match, after everything else was exausted The Japanese Sensei then brought out his secret signature move and pinned the Brazilian on his back to the floor and the won the match with that one move. The move is now referrred to as the 'Kimura' and is the backbone of many practicioners repetoir.Essentially it is still a 'signature' winning move in BJ or JJ. The Brazilians adapted it to their form and others to theirs; if they know to look for the move. It is in the essence of the Japanese Arts that this move emerged.

So, I have two thoughts:
Thought one: The answer to the original thread question woud be,in essence, The Kimura and the functioning properties of Japanese Arts as emerged from the land.

Thought Two:
Our reasoning and method for training, as it is generationally passed down from the founder and his diciples, is to learn to Co-Exist not to Compete. They have very different end purposes and the way we practice the same moves as say, The Kimura, lead to a larger effect than winning a Brazilian. It leads to the possibility that we can, of whatever origin, Co-Exist with the Brazilians ( or name your favorite country ........here) based on unversal principles of nature that bind us all on this earth. If you ( One) end your mind at the thought of fighting and winning then you (one) also end your mind at the thought of death. Very un-samurai and very un-alive way to 'progress' in this mortal plane.

Domo Arigato Gozaimashita,

jen

Nafis Zahir
05-27-2007, 10:27 AM
I have lately been coming across much boasting by the Brazilian Jujitsu practioners about their grappling techniques and claims that no martial art would stand a chance once you are on the ground how ever there must be more than one Aikido technique which if applied in that second the Brazilian Jujitsu fighter reaches with his hand to grab would neutralize the whole attack so what is it in your opinion?

I believe the best way to deal with them is on the ground. So I would use any technique from suri-waza.

jennifer paige smith
05-27-2007, 10:34 AM
I got kicked off by the administrator for taking too long with my thoughts ( oh well:rolleyes: ).
I wanted to add that the 'Brazilian' is Heloi Gracie.

and here is a link of the final match

:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH1eNsMNW24&mode=related&search=

and here is a link of a Kimura Documentary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkDBflFtPIw

Domo!

paw
05-27-2007, 10:45 AM
In the early part of the latter century there was an intense and rivalrous competition between Brazilian Jujitsu and Japanese Jujitsu. The Brazilians had been practicing in realtive isolation, developing jujitsu to meet their own culture and standards, boasting all the while that they were undefeatable. A match was finally called between the Brailiain team and the Japanese team headed by a sensei named Kimura. After rounds and rounds among the sempai, some leading to near death and broken bones, all appeared to be realtively equal.

"near death" is a exaggeration imo.

The event culminated in a fight between Kimura and the Brazilian Teacher that almost lead to death in the first match. The match was stopped. It was restarted just a short while later.

I don't believe that's accurate. Helio Gracie had a match with Masahiko Kimura, and I believe this is what you are referring to. The match ended after Gracie's side threw in the towel during the second round (The total match time was over 13 minutes). It should be noted that Kimura was significantly younger and larger than Gracie at the time of the match. Also Helio himself did not submit, despite having his arm broken during the match.

There were rounds, although I do not know the length of the round (I would presume 10 minutes). I don't believe the match was stopped for any reason inbetween rounds. Also Kimura had publically stated that if Gracie lasted longer than 3 minutes Gracie should consider himself the winner.

Regards,

Paul

paw
05-27-2007, 10:49 AM
I believe the best way to deal with them is on the ground. So I would use any technique from suri-waza.

Tactically, I would disagree. Groundwork is the strength of bjj, so choosing to engage on the ground with a bjj'er would be similar to wanting to box with a boxer. I wouldn't recommend that, myself.

In my own experience, swari-waza is not an effective way to counter bjj, nor would be attempting to apply submission holds from a inferior position which I think was suggested earlier. Of course, ymmv.

Regards,

Paul

Adam Alexander
05-27-2007, 01:12 PM
*sigh* we've been round this block before neh.

Very true. Except, that was the last time when I accepted your "challenge" to go check out dojo. Then I found that ground guys couldn't take me down until after I was totally winded and was indifferent to going down. I consistently got holds that were initial steps in Aikido techniques. And I chose not to apply techniques because I had several individuals in very delicate positions and I was afraid to hurt them (I had their fingers/hands/wrists under control).

I consistently controlled distance with Aikido. As a result, I controlled the situation.

Apparently the problem with you is that your Aikido is weak and you've failed with it. Because your technique is weak, you think that no one else's Aikido is effective?

It's good that you didn't continue on with that post. I put up, I figure it's time for you to shut up... my Aiki-failure friend.

L. Camejo
05-27-2007, 01:16 PM
I think the ultimate unstoppable technique that should have been used since the beginning of this thread is the Aikiweb Search Engine. Use words such as BJJ, shoot defense or any other BJJ specific terminology and you'lll find a host of very long threads dealing with almost everything to do with a BJJ/Aikido encounter.

For those of us here for some time, like Michael Fooks etc. this concept has been beaten to death, literally. Imho folks who compare style vs style instead of person vs person probably do not have very extensive experience/knowledge in fighting or sparring.

Gambatte.

L. Camejo
05-27-2007, 01:25 PM
Groundwork is the strength of bjj, so choosing to engage on the ground with a bjj'er would be similar to wanting to box with a boxer. I wouldn't recommend that, myself.Totally agree. Aikido can work quite well but one has to understand Aikido and be able to apply it very well. If you end up on the ground with no ground skills... good luck.

Aristeia
05-27-2007, 03:06 PM
Very true. Except, that was the last time when I accepted your "challenge" to go check out dojo. .I call shennanigans on this. Please name the bjj school you went to and the level of the people you sparred with.

Aristeia
05-27-2007, 03:38 PM
If you end up on the ground with no ground skills... good luck. Indeed. And to be clear to all, ground skills involves actually training on the ground against resistance, not saying "I'll just do ikkyo from my back"

Aristeia
05-27-2007, 03:41 PM
I think what we really need is some sort of automated bot for the message board. As soon as it detects any sort of "Aikido vs BJJ" post it deletes it then forwards the poster the dozens of threads that already exist on the topic.
Great idea! And lets add to the bots duties by having it also post youtube links to video's of those that have trained "hard enough and long enough" using Aikido to thwart the attack of BJJ blue belts or highter.

Oh wait.....

Keith R Lee
05-27-2007, 04:51 PM
Very true. Except, that was the last time when I accepted your "challenge" to go check out dojo. Then I found that ground guys couldn't take me down until after I was totally winded and was indifferent to going down. I consistently got holds that were initial steps in Aikido techniques. And I chose not to apply techniques because I had several individuals in very delicate positions and I was afraid to hurt them (I had their fingers/hands/wrists under control).

I consistently controlled distance with Aikido. As a result, I controlled the situation.

Apparently the problem with you is that your Aikido is weak and you've failed with it. Because your technique is weak, you think that no one else's Aikido is effective?

It's good that you didn't continue on with that post. I put up, I figure it's time for you to shut up... my Aiki-failure friend.

Name the exact BJJ gym you went to, along with people who were blue belt and higher that were there. Almost any reputable BJJ will have a website as well so you should be able to link it for us. I call ultra-double-super-shennanigans if you were both wearing gi.

Adam Alexander
05-27-2007, 04:55 PM
I call shennanigans on this. Please name the bjj school you went to and the level of the people you sparred with.

Yeah, yeah. How about you post the names of the people you've trained under in Aikido who's technique is too weak to deal with BJJers?

Since my visit to that initial dojo that ended my questions I had on whether it was me who imagined I saw too much in the techniques or your blindness that prevented you from seeing the depth of the art, I've messed around with a handful more.

I'm not going to appear to brag or insult people who don't take it personally that I get the better of them on most occassions.

In the end, the case is closed for me. Your technique is immature, that's why you couldn't find the answers in Aikido.

Adam Alexander
05-27-2007, 05:03 PM
Name the exact BJJ gym you went to, along with people who were blue belt and higher that were there. Almost any reputable BJJ will have a website as well so you should be able to link it for us. I call ultra-double-super-shennanigans if you were both wearing gi.

Sure. What sandan Aikidoka have you tangled with to support anything that contradicts what I'm saying.

BJJ, JJ who cares? It's all JJ just like Aikido is all Aikido.

You guys play this game. If I head to a dojo, it's not the right dojo. If I name a rank, it wasn't the right rank. If I name a name, it's not the right name. If an Aikidoka won the UFC, it was the wrong time to win the UFC.

You're blinded by denial because you can't grasp it.

Keith R Lee
05-27-2007, 09:20 PM
Well, one of my best friends is a sandan (we met at our Aikido dojo) and we train in BJJ together on a regular basis. So...pretty often.

No, the game is, you come on here and make wild claims and we ask you to back them up, you resort to ad hominem retorts. Which, tends to make everyone not believe anything you say. At this point, I'm fairly resigned to just regarding you as a very clever troll.

Adam Alexander
05-27-2007, 10:36 PM
Well, one of my best friends is a sandan (we met at our Aikido dojo) and we train in BJJ together on a regular basis. So...pretty often.

No, the game is, you come on here and make wild claims and we ask you to back them up, you resort to ad hominem retorts. Which, tends to make everyone not believe anything you say. At this point, I'm fairly resigned to just regarding you as a very clever troll.

Yeah but was he a sandan before or after he started BJJ? If he wasn't a sandan, then he doesn't count. Then, what style is he if he was a sandan? Only two styles of Aikido matter and he's had to of trained in one for five years and the other for six months. However, the six months must of been during his third year of the first style. Of course, he had to of returned to the second after his five years of the first to pursue his sandan.

And let's face it, one sandan doesn't really represent Aikido as a whole.

You're right. I'm very clever. But if I'm a troll, it seems interesting that I'm an Aikidoka on an Aikido website responding to posts made by non-committed or non-Aikidoka.

Makes me wonder, who are the trolls?

miratim
05-27-2007, 11:23 PM
Yeah but was he a sandan before or after he started BJJ? If he wasn't a sandan, then he doesn't count. Then, what style is he if he was a sandan? Only two styles of Aikido matter and he's had to of trained in one for five years and the other for six months. However, the six months must of been during his third year of the first style. Of course, he had to of returned to the second after his five years of the first to pursue his sandan.

What does any of that mean?

charyuop
05-28-2007, 02:41 AM
The real problem is that you ask a question to which very few Aikidoka's can answer.
You will see the usual defensive answers like "why you wanna know? Aikido is..." or "when a BJJer will attack you?". But this is to hide the fact that someone who does only Aikido has not a clue on what to do on the ground. In dojo's it is never practiced and so no way to tell you.

One thing I agree with what I read, if a BBJer wants to take the fight to the ground in the long run it wil happen. So if you wanna know what to do the only thing is taking your Sensei and train in dojo with him on avoiding being taken down. But most likely go to a BJJ gym and learn some ground work which won't hurt you to know.

Aristeia
05-28-2007, 02:45 AM
who knows what I mean. I do remember that in the last discussion that Jean went on a bent about how rank doesn't matter. I predicted he'd change his tune on that and I see he has.

Sandans? Well I'm one, does that count? I was Nidan when I first walked into a BJJ club and got completely handled. My grades have all been confrerred by an Aikikai Shihan - so of course when you insult my level and ability you are also insulting that particular Shihan and indeed the Aikikai.

I noticed something odd in one of your responses. Can you confirm for us that the "dojo" you went to test yourself was *Brazillian* Jiu Jitsu and not japanese?

Aristeia
05-28-2007, 03:07 AM
oops that should read who knows what he (Jean) means - in response to Tim.

Aristeia
05-28-2007, 03:09 AM
The real problem is that you ask a question to which very few Aikidoka's can answer.Actually there are many Aikidoka that can answer becasue they have trained in BJJ. Several on this forum. But some people don't seem to like us - apparently because they don't like the answers we give.

xuzen
05-28-2007, 03:46 AM
What technique to use against BJJ?

1) Jo chudan tsuki
2) Jo ashi gake
3) Jo ashi gari
4) Jo shomen uchi
5) Jo yokemen uchi... all this or

learn to grapple.

p/s suwari-waza do not work against newaza player.. sadly from personal experience.

Boon.

Aristeia
05-28-2007, 03:52 AM
What technique to use against BJJ?

1) Jo chudan tsuki
2) Jo ashi gake
3) Jo ashi gari
4) Jo shomen uchi
5) Jo yokemen uchi... all this or

Nah, I grappled with Joe, he's not as good as people think...:D

Michael Varin
05-28-2007, 06:12 AM
One thing I agree with what I read, if a BBJer wants to take the fight to the ground in the long run it wil happen. So if you wanna know what to do the only thing is taking your Sensei and train in dojo with him on avoiding being taken down. But most likely go to a BJJ gym and learn some ground work which won't hurt you to know.

It's surprising that so many people still believe that BJJ is the crown jewel of empty-handed fighting. I watched UFC 71 last night and the trends of MMA today continue. The techniques of BJJ don't have much more relevance than the techniques of aikido. This is really no big news. Both systems have their roots in Japanese jujutsu, which was developed by men who were always armed.

The evolution of the UFC is very interesting, because we are seeing what skilled empty-handed fighting looks like. The hands of western boxing, and the elbows, knees, and kicks of Muay Thai supported by the positional awareness of BJJ, the takedown and takedown defense of free-style wrestling, the throws of judo and Greco, and chokes. Submissions like juji gatame still pop up, but only sparingly, and don't make much sense when compared to ground-and-pound. Guard is much less of a way for a smaller man to win than it is making the best of a bad situation.

I don't say this to discourage anyone from studying BJJ or any other martial art, but just to keep things in proper perspective.

Aristeia
05-28-2007, 06:34 AM
you're somewhat correct on the trends. In the early UFC's very few people had any idea about the ground game, so you could win with just that (one eyed man in the land o fthe blind and all that). Then more ground skills came in, the wrestlers arrived, the stikers got good ground training, so the ground - while still a crucial element was no longer enough to win.

It's important to understand though that at the top level, and even many of the next tiers. those who look to be "strikers" are only able to strike because they have a strong enough ground game to allow them to do it.

L. Camejo
05-28-2007, 06:56 AM
These threads always show how little the average AIkidoka knows about using Aikido in an actual engagement imho. The talk about using weapons against an unarmed BJJ person is just as bad as the "dirty tricks" (eye gouges etc.) approach imho. It shows a lack of understanding of both BJJ and Aikido for that matter.

If you want to defend against BJJ in a manner that works regardless of what style you train in, then learning BJJ or a comparable method that teaches you quality ground fighting is the best route imho. If one wants to respond using what is available within the Aikido paradigm alone there are very many options, but when one talks about "Aikido responses" and then says ground fighting it shows that one really doesn't get how Aikido operates as a "combative" art, especially against something like BJJ. The "ground" is a BJJ-er's home and "fighting" is something most Aikidoka are not trained to do quite well.

Gambatte.

charyuop
05-28-2007, 10:34 AM
The fact is that BJJ is ground fighting. I have never watched UFC or stuff like that, but I have watched different matches of BJJ in internet to see why people is so attracted to it.

If the fight goes on standing in my humble opinion, of course speaking of even skilled fighters, the Aikidoka would have no problems to defend himslef. But all the matches I have seen every BJJer aims immediately to grab the legs to end the fight on the ground where the Aikidoka has close to 0% chances to win.

Here it not a matter of knowing what Aikido gives you, coz it gives you good tools to fight. The fact is that when the opponent keeps throwing himself at your legs sooner or later he will take you down. You might be lucky and avoid it once, twice, three times, but till when? You might be lucky and get the good timing in entering in irimi on the opponent shoulder and maybe do some damage there or step back or to the side trying to have the BJJer fall down.
What I mean is that you have to find the good timing 100% of the times, while for the BJJer it's enough you miss once and down he brings you. On the ground he will have all the time to find a way to gain victory coz on the ground he won't need to be 100% correct all the time, coz if he makes a mistake on the ground a pure Aikidoka will never be able to take advantage of it.

Keith R Lee
05-28-2007, 11:03 AM
Yeah but was he a sandan before or after he started BJJ? If he wasn't a sandan, then he doesn't count. Then, what style is he if he was a sandan? Only two styles of Aikido matter and he's had to of trained in one for five years and the other for six months. However, the six months must of been during his third year of the first style. Of course, he had to of returned to the second after his five years of the first to pursue his sandan.


I can't even parse this.

And let's face it, one sandan doesn't really represent Aikido as a whole.

So after I say I train with a sandan on a regular basis, you immediately change your tune. Just a minute ago you made it sound like a sandan is the end all, be all. Any more inconsistencies or hyperbole you'd like to throw out?

But if I'm a troll, it seems interesting that I'm an Aikidoka on an Aikido website responding to posts made by non-committed or non-Aikidoka.

Non-committed?? Michael and I are both higher ranked and have trained longer in Aikido than you, so if we're comparing commitment than we both place higher than you on that totem pole.

Okami
05-28-2007, 11:24 AM
Hello all! I see you are having a very good discussion, and I belive I have the answer. Before I started Aikido I had four years of Karate and som JuJutsu, and quite simply the easiest way to stop a grappler is too....Relax completely! One of Tohei's five ki principles, you see grapplers require resistance, if they were to do say a bear hug and you relax completely and do not resist, there isn't much they can do, and beside, why are you concerning yourself with your attacker? As O'sensei said, attackers will come in all shapes forms and sizes, but they are just energy to be harmonized with.

jennifer paige smith
05-28-2007, 12:29 PM
"near death" is a exaggeration imo.

I don't believe that's accurate. Helio Gracie had a match with Masahiko Kimura, and I believe this is what you are referring to. The match ended after Gracie's side threw in the towel during the second round (The total match time was over 13 minutes). It should be noted that Kimura was significantly younger and larger than Gracie at the time of the match. Also Helio himself did not submit, despite having his arm broken during the match.

There were rounds, although I do not know the length of the round (I would presume 10 minutes). I don't believe the match was stopped for any reason inbetween rounds. Also Kimura had publically stated that if Gracie lasted longer than 3 minutes Gracie should consider himself the winner.

Regards,

Paul

Collective effort on all accounts. Did you enjoy the videos?

Adam Alexander
05-28-2007, 01:20 PM
...attackers will come in all shapes forms and sizes, but they are just energy to be harmonized with.

I like the quote. I don't necessarily agree with your interpretation of it.

So after I say I train with a sandan on a regular basis, you immediately change your tune. Just a minute ago you made it sound like a sandan is the end all, be all. Any more inconsistencies or hyperbole you'd like to throw out?

Non-committed?? Michael and I are both higher ranked and have trained longer in Aikido than you, so if we're comparing commitment than we both place higher than you on that totem pole.

You took an awful lot from me using sandan as a mark. I didn't imply all of that.

Yes, non-committed. You guys might of been Aiki-hobbyists since the dawn of time. You might of done enough for the organization to get your rank. But that means little to me.

If you were committed, you'd not be dogging Aikido at every chance when it comes to BJJ. Instead, you'd be developing the next layer of techniques for Aikido to deal with these "mysterious and all new" attacks.

If you're sandans or other senior rank, you should be spending your time at your dojos that you run developing your own technique rather than chasing someone else's.

I live Aikido. There's little else in this world that means as much to me as this art. Hours on hours are dedicated to unlocking the mysteries. Hours on hours decidated to figuring out what I can do to make myself right for Aikido.

If I walked into a BJJ gym or any dojo tomorrow to test my skills, it would be to find the weakness in my technique. It wouldn't be about challenging Aikido. If my technique failed, then I'd search for the answer within Aikido. Should I not find the answer, I'd begin to develop an Aikido solution.

That's commitment.

You clowns are part-timers and half-assers. 1 minus .5 equals a half. You've only got one life. If you spend part of it on BJJ, then you're part-timing Aikido.

These threads always show how little the average AIkidoka knows about using Aikido in an actual engagement imho. The talk about using weapons against an unarmed BJJ person is just as bad as the "dirty tricks" (eye gouges etc.) approach imho. It shows a lack of understanding of both BJJ and Aikido for that matter.

I think those were jokes.

I do remember that in the last discussion that Jean went on a bent about how rank doesn't matter. I predicted he'd change his tune on that and I see he has.


And you were right. However, I don't know if the reason you believe rank matters is the same reason I do.

It's like a college degree to me. You should expect that the degreed individual is more knowledgeable than the non-degreed. However, it's not a gaurantee. Some lower ranks understand more than some higher ranks and vice versa.

But I do agree that it's an indicator.

Sandans? Well I'm one, does that count? I was Nidan when I first walked into a BJJ club and got completely handled. My grades have all been confrerred by an Aikikai Shihan - so of course when you insult my level and ability you are also insulting that particular Shihan and indeed the Aikikai.
Nope. I don't know why you were awarded yours;)

I do insult your level and ability. However, I'm simply stating what the equation reflected in your opinion concludes. You've insulted yourself. I've simply condensed it for you.

Please don't try to hide behind the Aikikai and a particular Shihan. The reasons they gave you a rank is as unknown to me as it is to you.

If you were unable to grasp the teachings of a certain Shihan, that is a reflection of you and your unwillingness or inability to work harder...not the Shihan.

I noticed something odd in one of your responses. Can you confirm for us that the "dojo" you went to test yourself was *Brazillian* Jiu Jitsu and not japanese?

I've been out to a few gyms. None BJJ. MMA and Japanese.

They're all the same, right? Just like all Aikido's the same? Isn't that what you've been saying?

As always, I appreciate the play time.

The reason that I haven't advanced in my Aikido is ego. (Can you tell?) I'm terribly arrogant so I've refused to test. (But those things are changing.) Being low-rank and awfully egotistical gives me a defense for playing these games.

What's your excuse? Sandans should represent better.

I'm done playing with you again. If you can't grasp what's being said, I just can't help you.

Aristeia
05-28-2007, 03:31 PM
Right so it is now clear Jean has *never* tested himself or sparred with a BJJer.
Show me where I ever said that BJJ is the same as JJJ or even judo? It's simply not true. So when you try to show how your aikido can deal with a bjjer by talking about an experience with JJJ you're exposing your ignorance even more than normal.

Let me state again - for the thousandth time, that we do not look to dog aikido at any opportunity. We *all* say Aikido is a fantastic art for it's specific purpose.

But when it comes to the BJJ discussion - We have more experience of Aikido than you. We have more experience of BJJ than you (which appears to be none). Why would your opinion carry *any* weight at all given you are talking of things of which you have *no* actual experience. It's all theory and daydreams.

When someone pops up that says they have found within Aikido an effective counter to BJJ strategy (that is not BJJ), and that person has actually experienced BJJ with genuine ranks- then I might be interested.

But you? You're a kid reading books, talking big and fantasising about how you would wristlock Rickson.

Aristeia
05-28-2007, 03:44 PM
Very true. Except, that was the last time when I accepted your "challenge" to go check out dojo. No you didn't. But then you presented as if you had in a way that can only be seen as dishonest.

should you want to actually do what you have claimed to do, this would be a good place to start

http://www.warriorway.com/index.php?topic=contact

Murgen
05-28-2007, 04:28 PM
Anyone know a legitimate BJJ in The Dallas/FW area?? Gonna go get some first hand experience. I realize a BJJ board is probably a better place to ask.

I apologize if I said anything offense to BJJ practitioners. I'm sure the talkers are a minority. I was tried. I respect BJJ for the practicality. Does seem like the places I've found are charging an arm and a leg to train with em. The BJJ dojo near me charges twice what my Aikido dojo charges per month. We do quite a bit of grappling in my Aikido dojo and I find grappling to be quite effective. I usually can hold my own against everybody except my Sensei. It's not my favorite thing to do I'll admit. I've never been able to take my Aikido sensei down to the ground and I'm 185lb 6ft. I'm going full out I might add. He's probably 160, 5' 8". Granted, I haven't trained in take downs for years and years.

Cheers,

Anthony

Aristeia
05-28-2007, 04:32 PM
sorry, my US geography ain't the best. There's a Machado brother in Dallas but I have no idea where FW is.

whenyou do find a place I think you'll find that the people in a BJJ gym as as friendly and genuine as most people in an Aikido dojo.

Murgen
05-28-2007, 05:48 PM
Yeah, Carlos Machado is the one I found in Farmer's Branch. Kinda pricey. But that's relative I guess.

Last year I believe they were charging $135 a month and $50 annual association fee. Granted, I guess if you really want to learn it's cheap. $50 a year for the association is reasonable.
$300/hr for private lessons with Carlos Machado!

Guess they charge what they can get.

http://www.carlosmachado.net/machado/instruction.jsp

Cheers,

Anthony

ChrisHein
05-28-2007, 06:19 PM
If you want to use Aikido against someone trained in BJJ, you should take the advice given in post #11 by Michael Varin. He summed it up nicely in one paragraph.

"Learn to grapple", interesting advice since Aikido is clearly a grappling oriented system. It deals with grappling over a weapon, but it's still grappling.

DonMagee
05-28-2007, 11:44 PM
"near death" is a exaggeration imo.

I don't believe that's accurate. Helio Gracie had a match with Masahiko Kimura, and I believe this is what you are referring to. The match ended after Gracie's side threw in the towel during the second round (The total match time was over 13 minutes). It should be noted that Kimura was significantly younger and larger than Gracie at the time of the match. Also Helio himself did not submit, despite having his arm broken during the match.

There were rounds, although I do not know the length of the round (I would presume 10 minutes). I don't believe the match was stopped for any reason inbetween rounds. Also Kimura had publically stated that if Gracie lasted longer than 3 minutes Gracie should consider himself the winner.

Regards,

Paul

Not to mention Kimura was a judo and karate guy, not a jiujitsu guy, and he had fought man wrestling matches and challenge fights similar to todays MMA. He was probably the greatest fighter alive at that time. No one before Kimura, no one after. If I remember right Kimura refers to Helio Gracie as a little meek 6th dan in judo. He was frustrated that he kept throwing Helio, but the mats were too soft and Helio was unharmed. So he finally pinned him and broke his arm with a bent armlock we now call the Kimura. The towl was thrown in and Kimura was the winner. This was a grappling only match. However bjj has come a long way from the gracies. With each new black belt comes a revolution of techniques and new ideas and refinement of old ideas. Things that were once lost are rediscovered and new things are lost. It evolves and is not a fixed art. I'm truely amazed everytime I watch a new blackblet. Guys like Eddie Bravo, Braulio Estima, and the late Carlson Gracie all have very unique ways of using bjj. So its not as simply as beating bjj with an aikido technique ( as if there was a technique you could use to defeat anything 100% of the time). Its a matter of defeating the unique style of the fighter you face.

This is why there are guys who are better then I that I can tap without issue, they simply can not deal with my style. Likewise there are guys who technically I am better than, but for the life of me I find a huge challenge. Guys I can tap without any issue tap these guys that give me horrible trouble easily. Its the style of play.

Some general rules of thumb for fighting a bjj guy are very simple. First, keep distance. A bjj guy needs to grapple with you to take you down and submit you. This means you need to hope you are a better striker then he is, and that your body movement is better then he is. Keep circling, and maintaining distance. When you see his level change circle out with strikes. Next when he finally gets the shot in you need to maintain your balance and control his head. This could mean using a wall for support, sprawling, some kind of ninja like rooting. Whatever you do you need to prevent the takedown. A great way to do this is to stuff with a sprawl and push his head down hard. The body goes where the head goes. Deliver strikes and escape.

You are going to find it hard to do any joint locks. Bjj guys are smart about joint locks and they know how to move to escape them and use your attempt to their advantage. To effectively use a wrist lock on them is going to be very hard, you will have more success with armlocks, but you are giving them something to hold on to. This is usually all they need to take you down. I have very little success with wrist locks until I have a dominate position on the ground. Usually the guy just lets go or moves though the wrist lock.

This that will probably not work. Finger locks and breaks. I have broken fingers and toes and in competition usually do not notice right away. In a street fight the attacker is not going to be swayed nearly as easy as a competition. So there is even less likelihood that a finger break is going to matter. Pinches and pressure points are also very low percentage and more the often will just expose a limb for a bjj guy to lock. If you do get taken down it is probably going to be over quick, but if you are mounted there are a few things you should never do. Punching or pushing on the person will only get you armbared. Pulling on them will also expose arm locks. Rolling over will get you choked out. Your best bet is to try to swim though the rain of punches and trap an arm while hipping up to keep them off balance so their strikes are not that hard. Hopefully this will let you roll them over your shoulder. If no strikes are involved then you want to keep your elbows down on your sides with your hands protecting your throat so they can not use their legs to walk your arms up over your head. However if you are on the ground and you do not tons of sparing time on the ground, it is probably over. Your best bet is to just cover up the best you can and beg.

So if you are really worried about a bjj guy, you need to spend some time defending takedowns. This means getting real judo, wrestling, bjj, etc guys to try to take you down in a fully resistant environment. It is easy to stuff a takedown in kata. It is a lot harder when the guy can vary his approach based on your shifting weight and defense. But if you can prevent takedowns, you can nullify most bjj. Then its just a matter of dealing with his strikes. If he is a pure bjj guy, then that won't be much to worry about. However most bjj guys I know also train in boxing or mauy thai because they want to be mma fighters.

Tijani1150
05-29-2007, 12:21 AM
Okay

When I asked the question at hand I was looking for Aikido techniques and I seem to have got alternatives like:

1) Use a weapon
2) Gouge the eyes
3) Learn BJJ/Wrestling

Frankly these answers (specially coming from Aikidoka's) concern me because it reflects mental desperation and panic when it comes to BJJ as for the first two (weapons and gouging eyes) I think resorting to either one defeats the whole purpose of Aikido if applied by an Aikidoka since Aikido is mainly about redirecting one's energy = having control of the situation.

As for learning BJJ well its the easy way out yes but doing so equals losing faith in the whole art of Aikido and its effectiveness where its not Aikido anymore but BJJ so thanks but no thanks, I would rather work so hard on my Aikido to the extent where I am mentally comfortable with its application against any one including BJJ'ers and if I am ever taken down then there is a problem with my dedication and understanding and I need to work on it even harder.

Thank to all of those who contributed to this discussion specially those who answered my question and mentioned some Aikido techniques - Mary Turner, Nafis Zahir and Xu Wenfung.

P.S how genuine are these Hapkido, Taekwando, Kung Fu black belts Gracie takes down in the youtube videos? where did all of their kicking/knee work disappear when he charged at them? they seem to be standing there waiting for him to grab and control them, are you sure these guys are not acting?

PeterR
05-29-2007, 12:45 AM
Yeah but was he a sandan before or after he started BJJ? If he wasn't a sandan, then he doesn't count. Then, what style is he if he was a sandan? Only two styles of Aikido matter and he's had to of trained in one for five years and the other for six months. However, the six months must of been during his third year of the first style. Of course, he had to of returned to the second after his five years of the first to pursue his sandan.

What does any of that mean?

All I got out of that is apparently there are only two styles of Aikido that count. Love to know what they are.

Tijani1150
05-29-2007, 12:54 AM
Not to mention Kimura was a judo and karate guy, not a jiujitsu guy, and he had fought man wrestling matches and challenge fights similar to todays MMA. He was probably the greatest fighter alive at that time. No one before Kimura, no one after. If I remember right Kimura refers to Helio Gracie as a little meek 6th dan in judo. He was frustrated that he kept throwing Helio, but the mats were too soft and Helio was unharmed. So he finally pinned him and broke his arm with a bent armlock we now call the Kimura. The towl was thrown in and Kimura was the winner. This was a grappling only match. However bjj has come a long way from the gracies. With each new black belt comes a revolution of techniques and new ideas and refinement of old ideas. Things that were once lost are rediscovered and new things are lost. It evolves and is not a fixed art. I'm truely amazed everytime I watch a new blackblet. Guys like Eddie Bravo, Braulio Estima, and the late Carlson Gracie all have very unique ways of using bjj. So its not as simply as beating bjj with an aikido technique ( as if there was a technique you could use to defeat anything 100% of the time). Its a matter of defeating the unique style of the fighter you face.

This is why there are guys who are better then I that I can tap without issue, they simply can not deal with my style. Likewise there are guys who technically I am better than, but for the life of me I find a huge challenge. Guys I can tap without any issue tap these guys that give me horrible trouble easily. Its the style of play.

Some general rules of thumb for fighting a bjj guy are very simple. First, keep distance. A bjj guy needs to grapple with you to take you down and submit you. This means you need to hope you are a better striker then he is, and that your body movement is better then he is. Keep circling, and maintaining distance. When you see his level change circle out with strikes. Next when he finally gets the shot in you need to maintain your balance and control his head. This could mean using a wall for support, sprawling, some kind of ninja like rooting. Whatever you do you need to prevent the takedown. A great way to do this is to stuff with a sprawl and push his head down hard. The body goes where the head goes. Deliver strikes and escape.

You are going to find it hard to do any joint locks. Bjj guys are smart about joint locks and they know how to move to escape them and use your attempt to their advantage. To effectively use a wrist lock on them is going to be very hard, you will have more success with armlocks, but you are giving them something to hold on to. This is usually all they need to take you down. I have very little success with wrist locks until I have a dominate position on the ground. Usually the guy just lets go or moves though the wrist lock.

This that will probably not work. Finger locks and breaks. I have broken fingers and toes and in competition usually do not notice right away. In a street fight the attacker is not going to be swayed nearly as easy as a competition. So there is even less likelihood that a finger break is going to matter. Pinches and pressure points are also very low percentage and more the often will just expose a limb for a bjj guy to lock. If you do get taken down it is probably going to be over quick, but if you are mounted there are a few things you should never do. Punching or pushing on the person will only get you armbared. Pulling on them will also expose arm locks. Rolling over will get you choked out. Your best bet is to try to swim though the rain of punches and trap an arm while hipping up to keep them off balance so their strikes are not that hard. Hopefully this will let you roll them over your shoulder. If no strikes are involved then you want to keep your elbows down on your sides with your hands protecting your throat so they can not use their legs to walk your arms up over your head. However if you are on the ground and you do not tons of sparing time on the ground, it is probably over. Your best bet is to just cover up the best you can and beg.

So if you are really worried about a bjj guy, you need to spend some time defending takedowns. This means getting real judo, wrestling, bjj, etc guys to try to take you down in a fully resistant environment. It is easy to stuff a takedown in kata. It is a lot harder when the guy can vary his approach based on your shifting weight and defense. But if you can prevent takedowns, you can nullify most bjj. Then its just a matter of dealing with his strikes. If he is a pure bjj guy, then that won't be much to worry about. However most bjj guys I know also train in boxing or mauy thai because they want to be mma fighters.

Thank Don I enjoyed reading this.

xuzen
05-29-2007, 02:53 AM
Okay
When I asked the question at hand I was looking for Aikido techniques and I seem to have got alternatives like:

1) Use a weapon
2) Gouge the eyes
3) Learn BJJ/Wrestling

Frankly these answers (specially coming from Aikidoka's) concern me because it reflects mental desperation and panic when it comes to BJJ as for the first two (weapons and gouging eyes) I think resorting to either one defeats the whole purpose of Aikido if applied by an Aikidoka since Aikido is mainly about redirecting one's energy = having control of the situation.
Not sure about eye gouge or etc etc... but weapon work is clearly part of aikido syllabus. Using weapon defeats the purpose of aikido, you say? Maybe for you, but many practitioners do not think so.

As for learning BJJ well its the easy way out yes but doing so equals losing faith in the whole art of Aikido and its effectiveness where its not Aikido anymore but BJJ so thanks but no thanks
Realize this Ahmed, no one art can give you complete coverage. Each art has a specialization Analogy:. Life insurance is just that, take care of your next of kins after your passing whereas medical insurance take care of you when you fall ill... they were not designed to do each other's role.

Thank to all of those who contributed to this discussion specially those who answered my question and mentioned some Aikido techniques - Mary Turner, Nafis Zahir and Xu Wenfung.
You did not realize I was being T3H FUNNY when I simply burped out some random Japanese term.

Boon

Michael Varin
05-29-2007, 03:14 AM
Thank to all of those who contributed to this discussion specially those who answered my question and mentioned some Aikido techniques - Mary Turner, Nafis Zahir and Xu Wenfung.

First off, I believe Xu mentioned aikido techniques WITH a weapon.

Frankly these answers (specially coming from Aikidoka's) concern me because it reflects mental desperation and panic when it comes to BJJ as for the first two (weapons and gouging eyes) I think resorting to either one defeats the whole purpose of Aikido if applied by an Aikidoka since Aikido is mainly about redirecting one's energy = having control of the situation.

How does the use of a weapon reflect mental desperation and panic?

If we're talking self-defense or combat, I'd say it is much more intelligent than bludgeoning someone with your hands. This is not a knock on combat sports; I enjoy them quite a bit.

Aikido has an intimate connection to weapons. Jujutsu developed around weapons to support their use and disarm people if you lose yours. The Gracies developed some of these techniques into a fine form of submission wrestling and ground fighting, but it is not the most sensible way to fight empty-handed. Watch modern MMA. See how their strategies nullify most BJJ techniques and double leg takedowns to a very high percentage.

What about aikido techniques, including the attacks?
Why the focus on controlling the wrist and arm?
Why the lack of "takedowns" and "takedown defense"?
What happens if you shoot for a double leg on someone armed with a knife or sword?

Just some food for thought.

darin
05-29-2007, 05:37 AM
Aikido is love you know. So...

When your taken down by a BJJ'er, grab his arse and give him a big juicy kiss. Guaranteed to end the fight in an instance and he will probably never attack you again.

Ps. do not try this technique if your currently serving time.

darin
05-29-2007, 05:52 AM
Sorry couldn't resist the joke.

I believe Ueshiba and most of his students all cross trained in other martial arts. If you want to spar with BJJ, boxing, Karate etc then you need to study those arts or something thats close to them.

RoyK
05-29-2007, 06:09 AM
I believe Ueshiba and most of his students all cross trained in other martial arts. If you want to spar with BJJ, boxing, Karate etc then you need to study those arts or something thats close to them.

Just wondering how it looks from the other side of the fence: Would you tell a BJJ/Boxing/Karate guy who wants to spar with an Aikido guy, that he has to study Aikido too?

darin
05-29-2007, 06:23 AM
Yes I reckon if he wants to do randori then yes he has to learn how to fall and avoid having his arms or wrists broken. I am talking about sparring which in aikido is randori.

gdandscompserv
05-29-2007, 06:26 AM
The real question is: How do you defend yourself against an BJJ attacker on an internet forum?;)

DonMagee
05-29-2007, 06:33 AM
The real question is: How do you defend yourself against an BJJ attacker on an internet forum?;)

The only way to win is not to play...

PeterR
05-29-2007, 06:45 AM
The only way to win is not to play...

Which takes us to The Meaning of Competition thread.

gdandscompserv
05-29-2007, 08:13 AM
Which takes us to The Meaning of Competition thread.
Haven't seen it.:D

statisticool
05-29-2007, 08:19 AM
I have lately been coming across much boasting by the Brazilian Jujitsu practioners about their grappling techniques and claims that no martial art would stand a chance once you are on the ground how ever there must be more than one Aikido technique which if applied in that second the Brazilian Jujitsu fighter reaches with his hand to grab would neutralize the whole attack so what is it in your opinion?

How about a Kimura lock? Worked for Kimura. :)

Or if they pull guard, picking them up and slamming them on the back of their head? Remember we aren't on a cushy mat or relatively cushy canvas. Worked for the dude on The Ultimate Fighter 5 (also known as The Most Immature Show Ever 5).

Basically, anything that their sporting/entertianment environment outlaws: strikes to the throat, back of the head, breaking fingers, clawing eyes, testicles, etc. Using weapons..

charyuop
05-29-2007, 08:40 AM
Hello all! I see you are having a very good discussion, and I belive I have the answer. Before I started Aikido I had four years of Karate and som JuJutsu, and quite simply the easiest way to stop a grappler is too....Relax completely! One of Tohei's five ki principles, you see grapplers require resistance, if they were to do say a bear hug and you relax completely and do not resist, there isn't much they can do, and beside, why are you concerning yourself with your attacker? As O'sensei said, attackers will come in all shapes forms and sizes, but they are just energy to be harmonized with.

Relaxing is the base but not all of it. If you just relax with someone shooting at your legs you just go down faster. The key, as in all fights, remain reaction and timing. Someone like BJJer attacks your center and if you don't move fast enough he takes your center. Someone who shoots at your legs doesn't give you the energy like in a punch, push or grab. It is a constant energy charging your center and the only way to harmonize with it would be...well going down with the opponent, thing that Vs a BJJer you wouldn't want.

DonMagee
05-29-2007, 09:17 AM
How about a Kimura lock? Worked for Kimura. :)

Or if they pull guard, picking them up and slamming them on the back of their head? Remember we aren't on a cushy mat or relatively cushy canvas. Worked for the dude on The Ultimate Fighter 5 (also known as The Most Immature Show Ever 5).

Basically, anything that their sporting/entertianment environment outlaws: strikes to the throat, back of the head, breaking fingers, clawing eyes, testicles, etc. Using weapons..

The only reason those slams worked is because he was unwilling to break his arm. Had he been willing to end that guys MMA career forever, he could of broke his arm before that slam ever happened. Instead he was trying to be nice and get the 'tap'. That is a really bad idea for a street fight. However even then the slams did not really mess him up that much. Breaking fingers, strikes to the throat, clawing the eyes, testicles etc, are all very low precentage. They are hard to do, and have varying effectiveness depending on the person you are using them on. I was once put in the hospital from a groin kick, but before I went down I choked the guy I was fighting out cold. I've broken fingers and it didn't slow me down. I once watched a guy in our club break his toe so it was pointing straight up. He stopped reached down and bent it back the right way then went back to sparing.

While these things can help you, you need solid high percentage techniques to make sure you are in a position to use these low percentage techniques.

Of course obviously weapons would work. And blows to the back of the head are not really defensive moves, that means you are on their back raining shots. Hardly aiki if you ask me.

Bronson
05-29-2007, 10:12 AM
My favorite technique (which has worked every time that I've faced karate, kobudo, judo, MMA, tai chi, BJJ, JJJ, kali/escrima, JKD, kendo, kung-fu, ninjutsu, and other stylists) is to enter directly in, offer my right hand and say "Hi, my name's Bronson. I practice aikido and I think what you folks do is really cool, and I'd like to learn more about it" (or some variation thereof) :D

Bronson

statisticool
05-29-2007, 03:17 PM
The only reason those slams worked is because he was unwilling to break his arm. Had he been willing to end that guys MMA career forever, he could of broke his arm before that slam ever happened. Instead he was trying to be nice and get the 'tap'.


It looked to me like he didn't even have time to get a good lock in (either time) before the much stronger person picked his whole body up and slammed him. If it was a good lock, the person would have tapped or have not been able to pick him up and slam him.


However even then the slams did not really mess him up that much.


A large cut on the back of the head?

Hard enough for the other guy to stop because he knew it was a hard hit?

In a real encounter, the person on the bottom wouldn't be so lucky because the other person doing the slamming might not just stop like that.


Breaking fingers, strikes to the throat, clawing the eyes, testicles etc, are all very low precentage.


I hear this all the time, but we never see the actual studies showing how these percentages were calculated. Will you show us your study?


And blows to the back of the head are not really defensive moves, that means you are on their back raining shots. Hardly aiki if you ask me.

You can hit someone on the back of the head without mounting them.

DonMagee
05-29-2007, 03:35 PM
It looked to me like he didn't even have time to get a good lock in (either time) before the much stronger person picked his whole body up and slammed him. If it was a good lock, the person would have tapped or have not been able to pick him up and slam him.

A large cut on the back of the head?

Hard enough for the other guy to stop because he knew it was a hard hit?

In a real encounter, the person on the bottom wouldn't be so lucky because the other person doing the slamming might not just stop like that.

I hear this all the time, but we never see the actual studies showing how these percentages were calculated. Will you show us your study?

You can hit someone on the back of the head without mounting them.

I guess we just see things different.

At what point are you going to strike my head while I take you down? The harai goshi? Maybe the double leg? Where is your power going to come from? Maybe you think I'm going to turn around and let you take jabs at the back of my skull? I've been downward elbowed on the takedown, its not that bad. I'm in the MMA scene. I've see guys break their entire freaking hand and keep fighting like nothing happened, win and go to the hospital. They even keep punching with that hand. You think a finger is going to stop someone? Rich Franklin broke his hand, and damaged his ankle in a bad way in a title fight and kept fighting strong the entire 5 rounds. Look at it this way, I wont stop for a broken finger in a grappling match. Why would I stop when I really want to hurt you? Hell I know a guy who tore his ACL to win an amature MMA match. He sat right up through a heel hook. I've seen a guy break his arm to punch out a guy who was armbaring him.The ref called the fight because his arm was all screwed up. He was upset the fight was called, even though he had to go though months of physical therapy. These are not even real fights, they are sport fights. In a real fight you think they are going to let a trivial finger stop them?

I've personally needed to go to the hospital after a groin kick and still won the fight. New guys grab my fingers constantly, its not a big threat. Guys pinch me constantly, it leaves a huge bruise but doesn't hurt in the least. Noobs try everything to win, and I usually encourage them to. I'll gladly sacrifice a finger to break an arm or choke unconscious. Then I'll be upset at the pain and do far worse then I intended. So go ahead and clutch at my eyes while you slowly lose consciousness. Grab my fingers while I break your arm, pinch my legs while you take a long nap followed by stomps. Elbow my back while I drive your skull into the hard ground.

And yes, I know a good eye gouge is going to slow a guy down. I've seen it happen in MMA matches. But it is usually on a punch. Once the grappling starts it is really hard to defend yourself and gouge an eye. The man in the dominate position has a much better chance at gouging your eyes then you do. Reach for my eyes on the back mount, I'll tear your eyes out with my free hand while I choke you and tuck my head to protect. Reach for my eyes in the guard or mount and you are getting a broken arm, followed by a few stomps to the face.

It's not that I'm an unbeatable fighter. I freaking suck at fighting. Its that simply these techniques do not work. While you waste time inflicting almost no damage, you are going to get seriously hurt. Anyone promoting these ideas as an effective defense against anyone, bjjer or otherwise is simply unexperienced or a dreamer.

Aristeia
05-29-2007, 04:18 PM
Yeah, Carlos Machado is the one I found in Farmer's Branch. Kinda pricey. But that's relative I guess.

Last year I believe they were charging $135 a month and $50 annual association fee. Granted, I guess if you really want to learn it's cheap. $50 a year for the association is reasonable.
$300/hr for private lessons with Carlos Machado!

Guess they charge what they can get.

http://www.carlosmachado.net/machado/instruction.jsp

Cheers,

Anthonyyes that is expensive. Myt personal opinion is that it's worth it. Training with one of the Machado brothers is roughly equivilent to training with someone like say, Shioda or Tohei in Aikido lineage. So they're right up there. But as a newb to the art it may well be that you would do just as well to find a blue belt teaching somewhere for $50 a month if all you're looking for is a flavour

Aristeia
05-29-2007, 04:22 PM
Okay

When I asked the question at hand I was looking for Aikido techniques and I seem to have got alternatives like:

1) Use a weapon
2) Gouge the eyes
3) Learn BJJ/Wrestling

Frankly these answers (specially coming from Aikidoka's) concern me because it reflects mental desperation and panic when it comes to BJJ I've said this before ad nauseum on other threads but guess you have not tracked them down.

1. Why is it so important to find an "aiki" solution to a problem Aikido was never designed to solve?
2. How do you define an Aikido solution? Does it need to be kote gaeshi and shiho nage or will it do to take the principals and strategies of Aikido and adapt them to the ground situation? I mean principals like blending, centering, leading, off balancing, focusing the unified power of your movement against their weakest points etc ertc.
3. If you are happy to use aikido strategies on the ground and call that an aikido solution - the good news is there is much that can be done. In fact a lot of work has been done in this area and it goes by the name of BJJ.

Aristeia
05-29-2007, 04:24 PM
Aikido is love you know. So...

When your taken down by a BJJ'er, grab his arse and give him a big juicy kiss. Guaranteed to end the fight in an instance and he will probably never attack you again.

Ps. do not try this technique if your currently serving time.waitaminnut. You're going to take guys that spend hours and hours a week rolling around with other guys between their legs, mounted on top, and back mounted (and lets not forget north/south) - and try and out gay them into submission?? Good luck with that.
;-)

Anyone got a link to the bjj is the gayest sport ever vid?

Aristeia
05-29-2007, 04:25 PM
The real question is: How do you defend yourself against an BJJ attacker on an internet forum?;)
don't bring up grappling, ground fighting or bjj and I think you'll find there is not attack ;-)
- newbs raising this topic is the equivalent to someone grabbing your wrist imo

Aristeia
05-29-2007, 04:27 PM
Basically, anything that their sporting/entertianment environment outlaws: strikes to the throat, back of the head, breaking fingers, clawing eyes, testicles, etc. Using weapons..as I think don said, in a no rules environment you can use those "dirty tricks". But so can the other guy. And the person that can do it most effectively and with least risk to exposing themselves to a counter attack is the person with positional dominance...

Kevin Leavitt
05-29-2007, 05:47 PM
Damn, go to Paris for a few days and I missed this thread!

Sorry to leave you hanging Michael!

Michael is dead on the money, along with Larry and Don as well.

As far as looking at engagements from a particular paradigm, be it aikido, bjj, judo...or what not is really limiting and sets up a situation in which you come up with illogical comparisons.

Aikido and the Dynamic sphere I believe (Westbrook and Rati) cover fighting situaitons pretty good in the beginning of there fight.

These are the common situations you should explore, not from a stylistic standpoint.

1. Both partners square off and wait for the attack. (Parity).
2. One partner attacks while the other is not aware (non-parity).
3. Both know, one has a weapon.
4. One knows the other doesn't...the one knows has the weapon.
etc, etc. you get the idea....

From there you can then explore what works and does not work. You really have to define the parameters and the rules of engagement to have a good dicsussion in this area.

Studying both aikido and bjj I have found both to be complimetary and to have advantages depending on situations being presented and through what filters and conditions you determine to set.

In some cases a BJJ paradigm does not work at all, especially if the guy is determined not to fight and runs away.

Niether bjj or aikido work very well if your opponents buddy shows up with a gun!

A beer bottle over the unaware head trumps both as well!

Training in both has opened my eyes only to show me that style is not so important as much as the willingness of the budoka to not accept excuses or definitions that limit his/her ability to be open and grow. Translation: If something bugs you...then you should go study it...if you don't or cannot find the time, well then I guess it just isn't that much of a priority.

statisticool
05-29-2007, 06:40 PM
as I think don said, in a no rules environment you can use those "dirty tricks". But so can the other guy.

Of course they can, but that is like saying the guy who doesn't train in arm bars can also arm bar in a real fight. Trivially true, but unlikely, since they don't train in that manner.

DonMagee
05-29-2007, 06:50 PM
Of course they can, but that is like saying the guy who doesn't train in arm bars can also arm bar in a real fight. Trivially true, but unlikely, since they don't train in that manner.

Luckly NO ONE trains to actually use eye gouges, or they would all be blind.

Aristeia
05-29-2007, 11:02 PM
Of course they can, but that is like saying the guy who doesn't train in arm bars can also arm bar in a real fight. Trivially true, but unlikely, since they don't train in that manner.I hae not seen alot of training time in aikido dojos dedicated to eye gouging and finger breaking. Don't recall any pics or stories of osensei doin it either...

Aristeia
05-29-2007, 11:11 PM
just in case I've been involved in some weird aikido offshoot that's doesn't do the full syllabus I just checked both the "my favourite technique" and "my last class" threads. Surprisingly no mention of eye gouges in there. Odd....

darin
05-30-2007, 12:34 AM
waitaminnut. You're going to take guys that spend hours and hours a week rolling around with other guys between their legs, mounted on top, and back mounted (and lets not forget north/south) - and try and out gay them into submission?? Good luck with that.
;-)

Anyone got a link to the bjj is the gayest sport ever vid?

Good point! Back to the drawing board....

ChrisHein
05-30-2007, 12:52 AM
Aha.

xuzen
05-30-2007, 01:35 AM
waitaminnut. You're going to take guys that spend hours and hours a week rolling around with other guys between their legs, mounted on top, and back mounted (and lets not forget north/south) - and try and out gay them into submission?? Good luck with that.
;-)

Anyone got a link to the bjj is the gayest sport ever vid?

JooZitZoo is T3H GH3Y lol (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpceOOk2zog)

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/osaekomi/kami_shiho_gatame.gif... North South...now that is a so H4WT.

Boon.

gdandscompserv
05-30-2007, 06:30 AM
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/osaekomi/kami_shiho_gatame.gif
lol
That right thar is why I don't do bjj.:D

DonMagee
05-30-2007, 06:45 AM
At least I've never been asked in bjj to extend more or enter deeper.

charyuop
05-30-2007, 08:45 AM
I have a friend who does BJJ and I make fun of him (in a joking way) about the gayish attitude of BJJ. He always says that it is ok unless you have eye contact hee hee.

Last week I was making fun of him as usual and he gave me an answer that made us both get on our knees for how much we laughed. I told him about a match I watched in iternet and the position they had assumed and how much BJJer like "pushing" against the other fighter behind...he turned to me and said "you don't do that in Aikido, you just grab by the hand and walk away together happily".
Man I still laugh whne I think the way he said that.

At least we can say Aikido is romantic, BJJ is rough LOL.

statisticool
05-30-2007, 04:13 PM
I hae not seen alot of training time in aikido dojos dedicated to eye gouging and finger breaking. Don't recall any pics or stories of osensei doin it either...

And this changes things how?

Ron Tisdale
05-30-2007, 04:16 PM
The whole eye-gouging finger breaking thingy is a specious arguement. Nothing anyone says will change that.

B,
R

Aristeia
05-30-2007, 04:31 PM
And this changes things how?


Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
as I think don said, in a no rules environment you can use those "dirty tricks". But so can the other guy.
Quote = Justin Smith
Of course they can, but that is like saying the guy who doesn't train in arm bars can also arm bar in a real fight. Trivially true, but unlikely, since they don't train in that manner.

Your implication was that someone like a BJJer would be less likely to call on things like eye gouges as they don't train them. My point is Aikidoka don't train them either. Which brings me back to my original point - both participants can employ those strategies and in fact the person most likely to be able to do so effectively and safely is the person that has positional dominance.

Aristeia
05-30-2007, 04:32 PM
The whole eye-gouging finger breaking thingy is a specious arguement. Nothing anyone says will change that.

B,
Rwhat Ron said.

DonMagee
05-30-2007, 08:39 PM
The whole eye-gouging finger breaking thingy is a specious arguement. Nothing anyone says will change that.

B,
R

I hate you, you made me learn a new word. You know how hard it is to find my dictionary?

Keith R Lee
05-30-2007, 09:15 PM
I hate you, you made me learn a new word. You know how hard it is to find my dictionary?

You know you can just type "define: X" (where X equals your word of choice) into Google, right?:D

DonMagee
05-30-2007, 10:00 PM
I just don't trust the internet ;-)

Tijani1150
05-30-2007, 11:33 PM
I've said this before ad nauseum on other threads but guess you have not tracked them down.

1. Why is it so important to find an "aiki" solution to a problem Aikido was never designed to solve?
2. How do you define an Aikido solution? Does it need to be kote gaeshi and shiho nage or will it do to take the principals and strategies of Aikido and adapt them to the ground situation? I mean principals like blending, centering, leading, off balancing, focusing the unified power of your movement against their weakest points etc ertc.
3. If you are happy to use aikido strategies on the ground and call that an aikido solution - the good news is there is much that can be done. In fact a lot of work has been done in this area and it goes by the name of BJJ.

I have benefited a lot from your threads thanks Michael, it seems the majority opinion is on complementing Aikido with BJJ, thefore the question now is: would you train in both martial arts right away or concentrate your effort into one until reaching black belt then explore the second?

Kevin Leavitt
05-31-2007, 01:30 AM
Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
I've said this before ad nauseum on other threads but guess you have not tracked them down.

1. Why is it so important to find an "aiki" solution to a problem Aikido was never designed to solve?
2. How do you define an Aikido solution? Does it need to be kote gaeshi and shiho nage or will it do to take the principals and strategies of Aikido and adapt them to the ground situation? I mean principals like blending, centering, leading, off balancing, focusing the unified power of your movement against their weakest points etc ertc.
3. If you are happy to use aikido strategies on the ground and call that an aikido solution - the good news is there is much that can be done. In fact a lot of work has been done in this area and it goes by the name of BJJ.

I have benefited a lot from your threads thanks Michael, it seems the majority opinion is on complementing Aikido with BJJ, thefore the question now is: would you train in both martial arts right away or concentrate your effort into one until reaching black belt then explore the second?

Not an easy question to answer. It depends on many things and becomes personal in nature..

I train in both right now. I see the benefits for myself and I can say I would recommend it.

However,

It really depends on you and many things, and is something each individual needs to explore separately with the guidance I think of good mentors and sensei.

On one hand (extreme), if you goal was to be a good grappler, or to compete in BJJ aikido would be a waste of time.

One the other end, if you goal was to realize and reach a deeper understanding of O'sensei's message, then BJJ would be a waste of time.

In between there is a great deal of room for exploration and interpretation. The two arts are complementary I think, enough so that it is worth spending some time exploring each of them.

Right now I am recommending that one of my BJJ students spend some time in Tai Chi, Aikido, or some other art because he simply has issues with posture, breathing, and movement that I cannot seem to correct within the context of BJJ. Slower, more deliberate training I think may be helpful to him at this point.

I don't think you need to wait to get your blackbelt in either art. Frankly if you did that, it would take you about 10 or 15 years to derive the benefits of the synthesis of the methodologies.

I would though in most cases say that you probably should ground yourself a little in one or the other for a while (year or so), starting two arts cold turkey just getting comfortable and going through the learning curve would be a challenge.

Each persons path is different, but no harm in trying things out for yourself, there is no one right way, formula or mix.

Budd
05-31-2007, 08:42 AM
What technique would I use? Simple, whatever works (though there's enough similarities between mae ukemi and a sprawl and certain types of ude garami to a whizzer, that I think that's a good place to start - assuming that one's training the necessary body mechanics to pull such things off).

In other words, the answers are simple. Being able to make use of the answers with any kind of authority -- not so simple.

Techniques are like the exterior components of a house, they can be showy and look great, but if the foundation and structure of the house are weak, they won't survive any real storm.

philippe willaume
05-31-2007, 09:01 AM
lol
That right thar is why I don't do bjj.:D

Before taking the mickey on other style 69 remember that one "enters deeply from the rear" whilst doing irimi nage.

Philippe

Aristeia
05-31-2007, 04:37 PM
I have benefited a lot from your threads thanks Michael, it seems the majority opinion is on complementing Aikido with BJJ, thefore the question now is: would you train in both martial arts right away or concentrate your effort into one until reaching black belt then explore the second?I endorse Kevnin's response. Black belt is probably not necessary (particularly for BJJ where gradings are a little differen), but a reasonable grounding is a good idea. The trick I think is to time the looking of a second art right so that
1. you aren't soo invested in your current art that you are only looking to discredit or discount the second art.
2. You are invested enough in the current art that you desire to keep training in it rather than dropping it immediately for the cool new toy.

After that you may find like Kevin that you continue to train both or you may find after a few years you wish to concentrate more on one (which I have done).

My sequence was pretty much ideal for me (and maybe only for me). i.e. I was advanced enough in Aikido to not want to let the Aikido go and keep training. I was also advanced enough to see quite quickly how similar the underlying principals are. I then did both for a number of years before deciding to concentrate on BJJ as that was where I have the biggest skill gains to make. I will do this for another few years. Once I get to a higher level in BJJ and find myself with more time on my hands due to lessened family commitments I fully expect to dive back into Aikido, bringing with me the lessons I learned from BJJ.

But that's just me.

Kevin Leavitt
05-31-2007, 04:49 PM
simply by my situation, my experiences have pretty much followed Michael's. That is, aikido for a number of years, and the last few concentrating on BJJ. I am now going through somewhat of a synthesis phase. Heading back to Virginia in the next 6 weeks, I will once again pick up my studies of aikido, and also pursue BJJ at the same time.

What got me into BJJ was getting my ass handed to me by a skilled BJJer under NHB rules. It was enough to show me that I had alot to still learn if I wanted to be able to use my skills in a more complete/fuller spectrum than my background allowed.

I feel much more confident in my ability to fight within a close range with much going on than before, which allows me to control distance more proficiently than before.

Aristeia
05-31-2007, 05:29 PM
Here's another point I like to make from time to time. Something like BJJ can make your aikido better. We often talk in Aikido about entering deeply without fear etc etc. What stops people doing that in real life is a nagging concern that it could go wrong which sometimes makes people hold back.

But once you realise that if it does go wrong you will end up in a clinch or on the ground, and that you have an ever better plan there than you do on your feet....it enables your standup. Whether that's Aikido or striking. When you have no fear of the clinch or the ground, everything is suddenly done with so much more commitment.

DonMagee
05-31-2007, 10:23 PM
I'm a big fan of playing. I like to go out and take a few hours of boxing, or aikido, maybe some mauy thai, whatever. I usually take a day or two a month and dedicate it to doing something new to see how other people look at stuff. I always keep an open mind and try it out, but I also voice my concerns and get their feedback. I feel it is important to have a core focus though, mine is actually two arts that are basically the same, bjj and judo.

More importantly to me I feel it is important to do some MMA sparing. It shows you the flaws in every system. Normal bjj training doesn't prepare you to deal with knees from the side mount, or punches from the mount. However a few quick mma sparing sessions and you learn to quickly how to use bjj to deal with it.

I think the same holds true for aikido, it just takes a lot longer to work out. Very slowly I find myself using wrist locks, ikkyo like arm drags, etc with building success. At least 2 times a month I go spend time with my old aikido club and train with them and look for new ideas to play with. But no matter what I keep my focus of at least 3 times a week in bjj/judo.

So keep a focus, make sure you train in that 3 times a week, then if you have the spare time, go exploring. And get some MMA sparing.

Kevin Leavitt
06-01-2007, 12:59 AM
Good points Michael, I wanted to express the same thing you did about what has really helped me in aikido is understanding the clinch and ground. I don't feel like I need to be as hard or nervous on the "inside" anymore....especially during things like irimi nage,which I (as many), will try and "force" out of shear desperation to make it work.

Once you can learn to relax and control the clinch...it seems to make things in an aikido context slow down that much more. Ironically I the space and distance we practice in aikido now seems so much more spacious and like such a gift now.

I think this is one way, as you point out, that BJJ helps with your aikido.

Don,

I agree with you to concerning the MMA context. We will stop doing GI and BJJ when I get in the mood and work on NO GI, and striking every now and then. It does change things dramatically, point out the flaws, or better put...the different context in which you must deal with things when striking and kicking come into play.

I personally like to train in things like Aikido and BJJ, spending most of my time in principal oriented training. Then, every now and then, add situational exercises such as weapons, no gi, kicks, punches...no rules etc to the equation to make sure we are all tracking with what happens when we have other constraints, opportunities and limitations that impact the situation.

Dazzler
06-01-2007, 05:26 AM
Excellent food for thought gentlemen.

Personally my defence against BJJ, Boxers, Street thugs and little old ladies with shopping bags is the same.

Respect. Treat everyone as you would wish to be treated yourself. Be aware and non confrontational.

If you have to hit - hit first and hit hard.

So far so good with this theory.

Keep up the posts - they help us all take an alternative view.

Regards

D

DonMagee
06-01-2007, 09:23 AM
Excellent food for thought gentlemen.

Personally my defence against BJJ, Boxers, Street thugs and little old ladies with shopping bags is the same.

Respect. Treat everyone as you would wish to be treated yourself. Be aware and non confrontational.

If you have to hit - hit first and hit hard.

So far so good with this theory.

Keep up the posts - they help us all take an alternative view.

Regards

D

This is fine and a good idea, but did you need aikido for this?

Dazzler
06-01-2007, 09:38 AM
This is fine and a good idea, but did you need aikido for this?

Possibly Don.

I'm a very different person now than I was 20 or 30 years ago.

I feel I've grown a lot. I attribute much of the change to Aikido.

Maybe it would have happened anyway of course.

Anyway - this is how I deal with people now and it works for me.

If someone is expecting an answer of technique X to deal with BJJ then it a bit of a daft question. If it was what principle then my answer would be irimi / atemi.

My bottom line would be fight like a dog. I'm not looking for a fight but if someone wants to beat me then they will have to do just that.

Regards

D
ps If any BJJers see this as a challenge then we are on but you have to be as old and knackered as I am. :)

pps. I think I'm the same age as Randy Couture! so best leave MMAers out.

L. Camejo
06-01-2007, 10:42 AM
I would rather work so hard on my Aikido to the extent where I am mentally comfortable with its application against any one including BJJ'ers and if I am ever taken down then there is a problem with my dedication and understanding and I need to work on it even harder.I really admire this approach Ahmed. I think what you have said above is critical to developing a serious martial art/science out of ones Aikido training. Done correctly one gets results many Aikidoka may never experience in the area of the art's "jutsu" aspects. It doesn't have to take a lifetime to learn either. Go for it.

Like I said before however if one doesn't have this sort of dedication towards understanding the practical depths of Aikido then you can't go wrong in studying BJJ or a similar method in learning how to deal with it. It comes down to the individual once again imho. However there is no "technique" one can apply to neutralize BJJ or any other method for that matter. It's all principles and how well you understand and apply them imho.

Gambatte.
LC:ai::ki:

Kevin Leavitt
06-01-2007, 03:06 PM
Do you need aikido for this?

For many, the answer would be "no". There are many people in the world that figure things out quite well that have no afinity for aikido, nor do they need it to reach the same point in understanding and application of the principles.

Others though, as is pointed out, possibly do need it. Martial arts in general, started me on a path that altered my life very drastically, aikido certainly fit in there somewhere. It was my original art of karate and my sensei, sempai etc, that had the biggest impact on my life.

Funny thing is this, even though it had the biggest impact, I no longer find it relevant to practice today! Why?

I have matured, moved on, and have found newer perspective that have made it obsolete the way I did it back then. It would seem silly for me to do the kata etc that I used to do today.

However, the seed that it planted, and where it took me was what mattered the most.

Budo and martial arts sometimes work in some very subtle and strange ways that is not recognized externally as being aikido, bjj, or what not!

Sometimes walking way, or being respectful and humble arose out of that small seed.

Aristeia
06-01-2007, 06:12 PM
exactly. Even if I never step on an Aikido mat again it is a fundamental part of my martial make up. It informs and enhances the way I do my BJJ. And if I decided to drop martial art altogether and go become a saxophone player, i'm sure that both aikido and bjj would have an impact on that as well....

DonMagee
06-01-2007, 09:23 PM
NO matter what you might think, you can't choke out a saxophone. It's metal and pointy.

Aristeia
06-01-2007, 10:10 PM
Fooks by keybar 2.12 rd 1

Jorx
06-23-2007, 06:53 AM
Also it should be noted that Kimura was not a "Japanese Jujitsu" guy but a judoka in the sense that he trained under kodokan and never did the traditional ryu's.

Mato-san
07-07-2007, 12:38 PM
Everyone is pushing Aikido....I say take your man and put him through the mill...man feels hard? Super? Does he contribute?......easy done.... you need truth in training....or training is nothing...test me please I need that

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
07-07-2007, 06:29 PM
I don't really know what I'm talking about here -- very limited BJJ experience, though I'm working on that -- but I thought I'd chip in a few specific ideas. (Please note this disclaimer: grain of salt.)

It's sometimes possible to apply a nikkajo or kotegaeshi to a shoulder grab, if you're wearing a gi. Experienced people seem to know how to avoid this. Also note: you need to do something once you bring them down with that first lock.

I'd recommend keeping your arms out during the standup portion. I notice wrestlers and the like tend to use "hooks", and grab a lot around the head/neck/shoulders. It's kind of hard doing aikido when some guy's pinning your head down with a clinch. If you make sure that they have to go through your arms to get to your body, at least it increases the chances of something happening at more aikido-ish range.

I'm currently thinking that sokumen iriminage might be a doable technique from a katamochi here. Haven't yet tried it; will maybe give it a shot tomorrow.

One issue that occurs to me is the lack of atemi in grappling. I'm wondering if maybe a feint up towards the underside of the jaw or something might function similarly -- something that'll make them flinch or at least divert their attention. (Of course, the addition of real striking might make aikido even more challenging to apply.)

paw
07-08-2007, 02:46 PM
One issue that occurs to me is the lack of atemi in grappling. I'm wondering if maybe a feint up towards the underside of the jaw or something might function similarly -- something that'll make them flinch or at least divert their attention.

Atemi might or might not make any difference. MMA events, like the UFC or Pride FC can be consulted for examples of both. Granted it's not atemi delivered by pure aikidoists, but I think the general point is accurate nevertheless.

Regards,

Paul

Kevin Leavitt
07-08-2007, 03:38 PM
you will find very few BJJers out there that don't have experience of at least some atemi. (at least as good as any aikidoka).

i always tell the guys that come in and want to hit...that's fine with me....but remember i get to hit back too!

most will opt out and learn grappling skills to incorporate into their game.

gotta remember that grapplers will play by the same rules you do.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
07-08-2007, 06:37 PM
Perhaps I should clarify -- what I meant was ways to incorporate something that serves in the place of atemi even when no striking is allowed. Like, if katamochi nikkajo works better if you distract them before applying the lock, and traditionally one uses a strike to distract them, maybe there's a substitute for use in a pure grappling contest.

In no way was that a veiled, "Aikido would work if there was atemi!" remark, which would be complete wankerism.

Adam Alexander
07-08-2007, 11:47 PM
Just ask them what makes BJJ so superior to Aikido. You should have plenty of time to go take a nap and have a sandwich before they even notice that you've grown tired and left.

DonMagee
07-09-2007, 06:38 AM
Perhaps I should clarify -- what I meant was ways to incorporate something that serves in the place of atemi even when no striking is allowed. Like, if katamochi nikkajo works better if you distract them before applying the lock, and traditionally one uses a strike to distract them, maybe there's a substitute for use in a pure grappling contest.

In no way was that a veiled, "Aikido would work if there was atemi!" remark, which would be complete wankerism.

The problem is that bjj has to be 100% usable in its practiced form. A fake or pretend strike is going to have 0 effect because we know you can't strike in grappling competition. If you want to learn strikes in grappling, then use strikes. The whole fake striking thing always irks me. I can plainly see the person is not going to hit me, so why bother defending. I know he wants a response to use against me, so I will not give him one. But if he hits me in the face, he gets a response no matter what.

Aiki x
07-09-2007, 07:30 AM
If your in a street fight with a BJJ'er try tapping. They may just forget the fight is real and let go.:)

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
07-09-2007, 10:11 AM
The problem is that bjj has to be 100% usable in its practiced form. A fake or pretend strike is going to have 0 effect because we know you can't strike in grappling competition. If you want to learn strikes in grappling, then use strikes. The whole fake striking thing always irks me. I can plainly see the person is not going to hit me, so why bother defending. I know he wants a response to use against me, so I will not give him one. But if he hits me in the face, he gets a response no matter what.

Right -- I was thinking maybe some sort of nuisance maneuver like pushing the neck or jaw. But anyway, it was just an idea; I think it was probably not a good one.

It's sort of sad how happy it would make me to be able to pull off aikido waza somewhat reliably in free grappling. There are definitely times when I wish I'd never done aikido, because now I like the art too much to just drop it, as bizarre as that might sound. In the meantime, I guess the best thing to do is keep working at it.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
07-09-2007, 10:40 AM
Hm, 15 minute time limit has elapsed...but pardon the moment of mild emo. ;) Writing a little too freely.

DonMagee
07-09-2007, 12:32 PM
Right -- I was thinking maybe some sort of nuisance maneuver like pushing the neck or jaw. But anyway, it was just an idea; I think it was probably not a good one.

It's sort of sad how happy it would make me to be able to pull off aikido waza somewhat reliably in free grappling. There are definitely times when I wish I'd never done aikido, because now I like the art too much to just drop it, as bizarre as that might sound. In the meantime, I guess the best thing to do is keep working at it.

Actually, my club does training pushing on the face, chin, etc. We also crossface with the forearm and do all sorts of 'evil' stuff like that in competitions where it is legal.

One of the first armbar setups I ever learned was from inside the guard. I would fake a collar choke then when he reached to defend I would turn my hips out swing my legs up and push his face as hard as I could without being accused of punching him. They would turn away from the push and allow me to armbar them without the defense that was always stopping me (they would drop their weight on top of me trapping me). Of course now I know at least two dozen better ways to setup an armbar.

I understand how you feel about using aikido in grappling. I try it every day. I am getting to a point where I can use some stuff against white belts with some reliability, but it is still harder to do then just judo and bjj. I break it down to the leading. In judo and bjj you do not need the person to be lead as much as you do in aikido. In most aikido classes your partner is allowing himself to be lead, thus allowing you to look great. But in sparing the person knows anything you are trying to do is probably not in his best interests. So he is going to put the breaks on most anything you can try.

The highest success I've had is with wrist locks. They are as easy to setup as armbars and chokes once you get some practice. It's fun watching the white belts be afraid to reach for you because of fear you will wrist lock them. However once you start playing with guys your level, those techniques are too low percentage to be something you should be using when higher percentage techniques are just as easy to setup and won't leave you so bad off when they fail. I refuse to teach any aikido I happen to get to my bjj friends. I tell them to go take aikido if they really want to learn it. Maybe someday if I open my own club I'll teach it to my students.

Budd
07-09-2007, 12:59 PM
A sankkyo can be a good kimura setup when you're on your back and the other person's in your guard. Of course, the idea is to move from setup to setup until something sticks, but sometimes just working a couple new ones into your game opens up some other options.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
07-09-2007, 01:08 PM
A sankkyo can be a good kimura setup when you're on your back and the other person's in your guard. Of course, the idea is to move from setup to setup until something sticks, but sometimes just working a couple new ones into your game opens up some other options.

Hmm, neat idea.

Demetrio Cereijo
07-10-2007, 06:44 AM
If you look at more open empty-hand fighting, like UFC, the techniques of BJJ are low percentage. Most of them have their roots in the same period of Japanese history.

Now, let's look at the most successful empty-hand techniques: wrestling takedowns, ground and pound, boxing/muay thai, chokes, blocking punches/kicks, and using the guard to minimize the effect of strikes.

All techniques are low percentage in these type of environments (resisting opponents of similar skill and size). How many punches, kicks, takedowns, subsmissions et c. are exchanged or tried withouth success?

graham
07-10-2007, 09:45 AM
'What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker?'

Buy them a Beer and sit down somewhere for a civilsed chat.

jennifer paige smith
07-10-2007, 09:55 AM
'What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker?'

Buy them a Beer and sit down somewhere for a civilsed chat.

If that doesn't work, apply more beer.

DonMagee
07-10-2007, 09:55 AM
'What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker?'

Buy them a Beer and sit down somewhere for a civilsed chat.

But the bjj guy is sneaky, he would drink your beer, act all nice, then when you least expect it, jump on your back and choke you out!!! :D

Budd
07-10-2007, 10:00 AM
It's true, bjjers are almost as sneaky as ninjas with Pilates balls . . .

jennifer paige smith
07-10-2007, 10:02 AM
But the bjj guy is sneaky, he would drink your beer, act all nice, then when you least expect it, jump on your back and choke you out!!! :D

Si Senor, and perhaps our little aikidoka friend is equally sneaky and has drunken ambush prepared out in parking lot to get even for that one time the guy drank your beer and then choked you out. But your friends were waiting in the shadows....wait... too much information to stay legal. Er, um,...Have to go now. uh, yeah....Have a good time:p

Ha,Ha,Ha.

DonMagee
07-10-2007, 10:43 AM
It's true, bjjers are almost as sneaky as ninjas with Pilates balls . . .

It's hard to see a bjj coming too. You have to know the signs. First, you need to keep an eye out for tapout tshirts, tatoos, rashguards....well I guess its easy to spot one...nevermind ;)

Budd
07-10-2007, 10:44 AM
I've heard of mystical bjjers that can give you ringworm with their chi . . . *ick*

PhilMyKi
07-10-2007, 12:53 PM
When I was a lot younger and bjj was just becoming big in blighty I had a drunken 'match' with my friend. My arm bar did not work! So I pulled out the big gun - postbadcurrygutrotexhaustnage and cleared the room. Works every time :)

Budd
07-10-2007, 02:21 PM
I've been on the receiving end of a curry-inspired sankaku jime (triangle) and my fast tapping had NOTHING to do with any legs restricting the blood flow to the brain . . .

philippe willaume
07-11-2007, 11:00 AM
But the bjj guy is sneaky, he would drink your beer, act all nice, then when you least expect it, jump on your back and choke you out!!! :D
yes but sneaky as well, the aikidoka is.
And before than the BJJ bloke have come to his wits, the cunning akidoka would already placed something like
what time is it, as the bjj gyt looka at his watch, boom nikkio.

or the sneakier.
Dam it is spooky here? could you gra,, heu hold my hand?

mmmmmmmmmwwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaa
mmmmmmmmmwwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaa
mmmmmmmmmwwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I have not done 7 years of freaking evil school to be call mister.

akiy
07-11-2007, 11:47 AM
The posts on "Aikido Techniques are Weapons Techniques" have been moved to this thread:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12667

-- Jun

Christopher Gee
07-11-2007, 12:49 PM
I've heard that BJJers can move through walls... is that true?

Budd
07-11-2007, 01:06 PM
Yes, if you throw them hard enough.

Aristeia
07-11-2007, 05:13 PM
I'd recommend keeping your arms out during the standup portion. I notice wrestlers and the like tend to use "hooks", and grab a lot around the head/neck/shoulders. It's kind of hard doing aikido when some guy's pinning your head down with a clinch. If you make sure that they have to go through your arms to get to your body, at least it increases the chances of something happening at more aikido-ish range.
not sure if that is such a great idea Paul. You'd be susceptible to things like arm drags and maybe even flying armbars...

Aristeia
07-11-2007, 05:14 PM
Just ask them what makes BJJ so superior to Aikido. You should have plenty of time to go take a nap and have a sandwich before they even notice that you've grown tired and left.
you still don't get it. No surprise. I doubt you could find anyone here saying bjj is outright superior to aikido. Some of us have claimed the two arts serve a different purpose.

Frankly I didn't expect to see you back on this thread after your previous deceit had been exposed.

Aristeia
07-11-2007, 05:17 PM
Right -- I was thinking maybe some sort of nuisance maneuver like pushing the neck or jaw. But anyway, it was just an idea; I think it was probably not a good one.

It's sort of sad how happy it would make me to be able to pull off aikido waza somewhat reliably in free grappling. There are definitely times when I wish I'd never done aikido, because now I like the art too much to just drop it, as bizarre as that might sound. In the meantime, I guess the best thing to do is keep working at it.Hey mate, relax. If you like the art - there is no reason to drop it. At the end of the day almost no one is practicing martial arts to go out and kick peoples asses or enter full contact fighting. That being the case the only question to ask is "what do I enjoy doing". If you enjoy Aikido, keep doing aikido. If you want more resistance, do bjj or a live art. If you want to try that approach with aikido - do some experimentation. Personally I really enjoyed training in both BJJ and Aikido at the same time, both for their similarities and their differences.

Keith R Lee
07-11-2007, 05:31 PM
^^^^ What Michael said above!

A lot of times it seems as though people set up this bifurcation with Aikido and other martial arts (not you specifically Paul). "It's either Aikido or nothing!!!" or "Aikido or BJJ - I can't do both!" Which is extremely false, as is evidenced by the numerous people just on Aikiweb that do both Aikido and some other art.

Sure it can be frustrating that Aikido does not seem to work that often in a "live" environment, but it's just something you have to deal with.

DonMagee
07-11-2007, 09:17 PM
I had a guy decide in a fit of spaz (he is new and young) to drop elbows inside my guard tonight. I moved my head and have a very nasty welt on my shoulder from where he hit me. In this case I used a very mean wrist lock (gooseneck like kotogeshi) that my aikido teacher showed me to fip him over on his back so I could dig my hooks in and choke him a little harder then I normally do.

Budd
07-12-2007, 07:20 AM
Don, play nice with the newbie spazzes!

We get wrestlers in from time to time that are immensely powerful, but aren't used to using their bodies in the new sub grappling context. What's nice is that if you can stay coordinated, relaxed and stick to them, you often have more time to get the ideal setup into the tap (without having to muscle or "yank" anything - just good position). What's not so nice is that some of the scrambles wth these guys have put people through walls.

DonMagee
07-12-2007, 08:51 AM
I wish I had a camera, I moved my head out of the way just in time, but I now have a welt solid purple about an inch and half in diameter on my shoulder. It's a little annoying. I usually just lock them down and wait for them to run out of energy. But last night I got a little carried away because it actually hurt.

nikau
07-20-2007, 12:32 AM
4 years ago i saw a technique used by a friend of mine before i started aikido, against 2 rugby players trying to tackle him AND the same tehcnique on a another firend who is a bjj who tried a single leg take down.

i only learnt what that move was since starting aikido.

BUT he also taught us (rugby players) how to avoid being smashed out of a ruck in rugby by applying the same principle.

The technique was kaiten nage.

When we attempted to tackle him he stepped swiftly accross into the forearm with his hip and turn with us. We'd become a gate where he was the hinge. He always made sure there our shoulder went past him. If he was hit him with our shoulder he was toast. But if he made contact with the forarm there's not a lot of strength there to hold your own body weight with.

When he used kaiten nage he used the same movement but instead of contact with the hip, he'd extend catch the arm coming toward his hip, and raise it to his center as he rotated. Our own momentum sent us flyiing. (none of us at the time knew how to take ukemi by the way).

I believe if u wre as good as my friend at kaiten nage and applying it in this situation THIS could be good agianst a take down?

Dazzler
07-20-2007, 06:00 AM
4 years ago i saw a technique used by a friend of mine before i started aikido, against 2 rugby players trying to tackle him AND the same tehcnique on a another firend who is a bjj who tried a single leg take down.

i only learnt what that move was since starting aikido.

BUT he also taught us (rugby players) how to avoid being smashed out of a ruck in rugby by applying the same principle.

The technique was kaiten nage.

When we attempted to tackle him he stepped swiftly accross into the forearm with his hip and turn with us. We'd become a gate where he was the hinge. He always made sure there our shoulder went past him. If he was hit him with our shoulder he was toast. But if he made contact with the forarm there's not a lot of strength there to hold your own body weight with.

When he used kaiten nage he used the same movement but instead of contact with the hip, he'd extend catch the arm coming toward his hip, and raise it to his center as he rotated. Our own momentum sent us flyiing. (none of us at the time knew how to take ukemi by the way).

I believe if u wre as good as my friend at kaiten nage and applying it in this situation THIS could be good agianst a take down?

Possibly...I think we called it the Whizzer in my jujitsu days but its definitely based on kaiten nage.

Keith R Lee
07-20-2007, 06:58 AM
Not really. Kaitenage is actually quite different than a whizzer. First off, kaitenage is an underhook on a person's arm, while a whizzer is an overhook. Kaitenage is focused on control near the elbow joint while the higher a whizzer is, the better.

Also, no, kaitenage is not a good defense in relation to a single leg or a double leg take down. I'm not sure how popular it is in Australia, but go to any high school wrestling team here in the States and try kaitenage while someone shoots in on you will be repeatedly hitting the mat.

Dazzler
07-20-2007, 07:51 AM
Not really. Kaitenage is actually quite different than a whizzer. First off, kaitenage is an underhook on a person's arm, while a whizzer is an overhook. Kaitenage is focused on control near the elbow joint while the higher a whizzer is, the better.

.I'll take your word for it Keith, its 4 years since I did jujitsu now, for me kaiten nage is just a generic term I've seen used for these rotational throws which vary widely across the various teaching styles of aikido.

Okami
07-20-2007, 08:36 AM
I have quoted on this matter before, but I do believe I have come up with a simplified solution to this problem, if on some instance you are forced to fight a BJJ....Here's the secret.....Ready?....Sure you're ready?.....Use Aikido! :D :D :D

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
07-20-2007, 09:27 AM
I have quoted on this matter before, but I do believe I have come up with a simplified solution to this problem, if on some instance you are forced to fight a BJJ....Here's the secret.....Ready?....Sure you're ready?.....Use Aikido! :D :D :D

Gee, thanks, Sean, I'll keep that in mind.

philippe willaume
07-20-2007, 10:25 AM
Not really. Kaitenage is actually quite different than a whizzer. First off, kaitenage is an underhook on a person's arm, while a whizzer is an overhook. Kaitenage is focused on control near the elbow joint while the higher a whizzer is, the better.

Also, no, kaitenage is not a good defense in relation to a single leg or a double leg take down. I'm not sure how popular it is in Australia, but go to any high school wrestling team here in the States and try kaitenage while someone shoots in on you will be repeatedly hitting the mat.
hello

I would say that the arm movement of kaiten, in tha particular instance would be like a “bras à la volée” xommon in catch as catch can, free wrestling and so on.

And if it is the only thing you try do do with katien, well it has almost no chance to succede against a shoot.
But from my limited understanding that is not a proper kaiten either . we are missing the control of the head. Even in “normal” aikido situation if you do not tuck the head toward his chest, he can walk of the throw, he will not have a reason to break fall at all.
Let alone in the case of a shoot where if we do not compromise his structure (or base), we will go splat as he will destroy ours either by tankig our knee or our hips.

In fact controlling the head and in such manner and moving a leg back, is the medieval wrestling response to a shoot and SLT/DLT
The only modification to kaiten is you control the head before the arm.

phil

jennifer paige smith
07-20-2007, 10:57 AM
hello

I would say that the arm movement of kaiten, in tha particular instance would be like a "bras à la volée" xommon in catch as catch can, free wrestling and so on.

And if it is the only thing you try do do with katien, well it has almost no chance to succede against a shoot.
But from my limited understanding that is not a proper kaiten either . we are missing the control of the head. Even in "normal" aikido situation if you do not tuck the head toward his chest, he can walk of the throw, he will not have a reason to break fall at all.
Let alone in the case of a shoot where if we do not compromise his structure (or base), we will go splat as he will destroy ours either by tankig our knee or our hips.

In fact controlling the head and in such manner and moving a leg back, is the medieval wrestling response to a shoot and SLT/DLT
The only modification to kaiten is you control the head before the arm.

phil

Yes, using hasuji (cutting angle) and kuzushi (balance breaking) both. Arms can be manhandled from almost any position in the ways I've been taught.

Budd
07-20-2007, 10:59 AM
Not really. Kaitenage is actually quite different than a whizzer. First off, kaitenage is an underhook on a person's arm, while a whizzer is an overhook. Kaitenage is focused on control near the elbow joint while the higher a whizzer is, the better.

Also, no, kaitenage is not a good defense in relation to a single leg or a double leg take down. I'm not sure how popular it is in Australia, but go to any high school wrestling team here in the States and try kaitenage while someone shoots in on you will be repeatedly hitting the mat.

I've done kaiten nage myself and seen a variant used in BJJ matches (in response to a leg shoot). Agreed that it's not like a whizzer. When used effectively in a grappling environment - it's much more like a three-quarter nelson, in that you're controlling the head and spine by breaking the structure of the other guy via your connection to him.

It's usually not the big projecting throw as seen in aikido demos, but more of a forced roll onto the back (good opening for side control unless the guy has a killer guard). Depending on the competition rules against neck/spine cranks it isn't always allowed. The thing is - you have to sprawl first.

If you don't know how to sprawl (or pass block from football, which kickboxer Maurice Smith used very effectively against Mark Coleman in the early UFCs, musta been all them grass drills), then a good leg shoot is going to give you lots of problems as it 1) often causes someone unused to it to bend over - breaking their own structure and allowing the opening for kuzushi/off-balancing 2) the incoming force then whips that person back the other direction, which is what capitalizes on the off-balancing and causes the takedown.

The good news is that a lot of aikido folks already have a sprawl in their arsenal - it's just called mae ukemi (it helps if the emphasis is to drop down to the ground quickly, rather then a jump up in the air). Good grapplers still get taken down, though, so don't forget that you have ushiro ukemi to allow yourself to fall into the best position to get ready to get back to your feet.

philippe willaume
07-21-2007, 07:15 AM
Yeap I agree with budd here, even if I am not to sure about the backward break fall. They usually transition to side control to set up a mount as you are being tipped over. But may be if you are in front of the technique…. (I never tried, and I am not sure I am good enough to pull it off)

It just occurred to me that may be that Keith Lee was thinking of kaiten when the guy is quite far away from us. To do that one our opponent needs to mess up. (ie shooting from too far) so I think I can see where Keith is coming from

I think Budd and I are talking when the head of this opponent is much closer to us.
If you have the head as for a normal kaiten throw, there is not that much he can do SLT BLT wise (and it make getting the arm easier), So even if can not get the arm there is still a few options, as we still have the head (like pile driving it onto the mat and putting your knee onto his neck)

In any case the kaiten is more like the kaiten knife defense, it leads “easily” to a nikkio sankkio pin (the one with one knee on the shoulder).

Again as Budd said, a good shooter is difficult to stop, usually because he will create a situation he has a good opportunity anb we have a small opportunity to defend.
On thing that I find very smart about shot is that even, if we are on posture and resist the initial impact, our side is realy realy easy to access, so it is very easy for himto turn the line of action of the shoot by 90 degrees, which give access to the unstable side of any bipedal posture.

phil

Budd
07-21-2007, 06:23 PM
Also, as I mentioned before - in an unarmed (especially sporting/training) context, you need to be able to sprawl to effectively enter into the oncoming force. You then need to follow up on the sprawl with something else, because a good shooter will take your sprawl and still latch onto a leg or hip that he can use to further break your structure.

DonMagee
07-21-2007, 07:14 PM
I tried to pull a flying armbar off a single leg takedown yesterday, the results were very funny. My neck really hurts. I think I'll stick to sprawls or turning away and rolling into an omoplata.

Aristeia
07-21-2007, 07:57 PM
LOL @ Don

Budd
07-21-2007, 09:31 PM
You could do the flying guillotine, (no relation to the classic Kung Fu flick, though that was a nifty movie), but then you'd have all the pro wrestling fans yelling, "DDT!!"

Keith R Lee
07-21-2007, 10:27 PM
I've been having a lot of success lately with what Eddie Bravo calls the "100 %" in his "JJ Unleashed" book. Sprawl->single butterfly hook->sweep->Harness movement.

Chikai Aikidoka
07-22-2007, 01:40 AM
Excuse my ignorance, but are we still talking about an Aiki techniques to neutralize a BJJ attacker?

What' are those omoplata, flying guillotine, sprawl, single butterfly hook, sweep, and Harness movement? :confused:

Keith R Lee
07-22-2007, 07:36 AM
Excuse my ignorance, but are we still talking about an Aiki techniques to neutralize a BJJ attacker?

What' are those omoplata, flying guillotine, sprawl, single butterfly hook, sweep, and Harness movement? :confused:

Those are all BJJ techniques. Which, :eek: , work surprisingly well against a "BJJ" attack. Funny how that works out, huh?

Budd
07-22-2007, 08:47 AM
Yeah, but you know they all have technical analogues in the aiki paradigm. I already pointed out sprawl = mae ukemi and kaiten nage = 3/4 nelson. It helps if you learn how to grapple to see the technical similarities, so me just saying it won't really do anything for you unless you go try it out (friendly-like!) with grapplers.

They don't usually bite and can provide very good reality checks.

Keith, I gotta get that Eddie Bravo book. He's made some interesting (hopefully not all chemically altered ;) ) points about combining aspects of no-gi BJJ and Greco-Roman wrestling.

Keith R Lee
07-22-2007, 01:20 PM
Keith, I gotta get that Eddie Bravo book. He's made some interesting (hopefully not all chemically altered ;) ) points about combining aspects of no-gi BJJ and Greco-Roman wrestling.

Yeah, JJ Unleashed is good but, "Mastering the Rubber Guard" (which is what I think you're referring to) is unbelievable. It is, unquestionably, the best MA book I have ever seen. High resolution, color photographs; every technique is shot from two angles so there is never any question as to how someone is positioned. Every move is flow-charted out as to how they sync together. A large portion of the book focuses on transitions between positions and a large section is also devoted on how to deal with people when they attempt counters. The book is really an incredible resource, if you want to expand your half-guard/rubber-guard game.

I like the rubber guard stuff, but Eddie's half-guard system has completely changed the way I roll. Being in half-guard (on bottom) has switched from being a defensive position to me, to almost assuredly getting a sweep. It's really great and a lot of it is (as you said) Greco-Roman based. I can't recommend it enough to anyone who is interested in grappling.

Budd
07-22-2007, 03:07 PM
Yeah, even before seeing EB's stuff, I tended to have a much stronger offense (subs & sweeps) from half guard - from a pure grappling perspective. In more of a MMA ruleset, my short, stubby limbs and I greatly prefer to NOT be on my back ;)

Rupert Atkinson
07-23-2007, 01:20 AM
I have lately been coming across much boasting by the Brazilian Jujitsu practioners about their grappling techniques and claims that no martial art would stand a chance once you are on the ground...

Unfortunately, there is truth to their boast.

In reality, most people who walk through the door of any dojo of any art want self-defence. Somewhere along the way, they forget this little fact and become content with whatever they are being taught. They trust the system.

The reality is, they would be far better served for self-defence by doing boxing and wrestling for one year. And even if they quit after one year, what they learned would serve them for the next ten.

Tell me it ain't so, ...

dalen7
07-26-2007, 05:53 AM
Well, one of my best friends is a sandan (we met at our Aikido dojo) and we train in BJJ together on a regular basis. So...pretty often.

Can Aikido beat BJJ?
Can my sandan beat your sandan? :)

But seriously, this type of thread goes in circles because everything isnt that cut and dry. What is aikido? - as if everyone even practices the same style of aikido...and aikido came out of another art, and the same with BJJ, etc. (evolution my friends)

So, my 3rd dan and 4th dan could probably beat most peoples dans and BJJs as well. And as I move up, I will to. ;)
Evolution.

Its all Ego my friends, labels. You cant grow or be 'master' with making an identity out of the sport you train.

Adaptation.

Thats what happens with us.
We have ground training involved - suppose it has to do with our 4th dan (Imre Marton of Hungary) is also a black belt in Judo - as well as a black belt in a couple other arts that actually involve weapons...so things trickle down.

So again, our aikido is not stagnant and is evolving and incorporating life applications. I saw someone say they were happy to practice tanto dori now that they are shodan - nice, but Im no kyu and Im already practicing that.

Point simple - 'aikido' cant beat BJJ, etc. - the argument can continue to go in circles on the base level.
Adaptation, and skill, and yes, strength (sure doesnt hurt when someone skilled like you is facing you) go a long way.

And of all people, I would think most of you would realize this.
You guys know of MMA, JeetKundo concepts. We already know one art cant do it all.

Imagine BJJ crawling on the ground like some animal waiting for you to fall. Of course they will do something that isnt ground technique to hope to get you down - and they cross train - dont they ;)

So when we drop the 'my art' is 'it' we wont have these type threads that keep popping up. :)

In this modern age with so much technology, ideas, techniques available to us...martial arts has evolved. Let us not forget that the military learns how to just eliminate the fight before they are on the ground wrestling - they kill the opponent.

So the above puts to rest quite quickly all the ego talk of who is the best...if there were no rules, the military techniques would win...but someone would be badly injured or killed.

It life, have fun...enjoy your ikkyos if your an aikido or your rolling on the ground if you BJJ, or you bloody noses if your a boxer. :)

Peace

Dalen

DonMagee
07-26-2007, 06:38 AM
Can Aikido beat BJJ?
Can my sandan beat your sandan? :)

But seriously, this type of thread goes in circles because everything isnt that cut and dry. What is aikido? - as if everyone even practices the same style of aikido...and aikido came out of another art, and the same with BJJ, etc. (evolution my friends)

So, my 3rd dan and 4th dan could probably beat most peoples dans and BJJs as well. And as I move up, I will to. ;)
Evolution.

Its all Ego my friends, labels. You cant grow or be 'master' with making an identity out of the sport you train.

Adaptation.

Thats what happens with us.
We have ground training involved - suppose it has to do with our 4th dan (Imre Marton of Hungary) is also a black belt in Judo - as well as a black belt in a couple other arts that actually involve weapons...so things trickle down.

So again, our aikido is not stagnant and is evolving and incorporating life applications. I saw someone say they were happy to practice tanto dori now that they are shodan - nice, but Im no kyu and Im already practicing that.

Point simple - 'aikido' cant beat BJJ, etc. - the argument can continue to go in circles on the base level.
Adaptation, and skill, and yes, strength (sure doesnt hurt when someone skilled like you is facing you) go a long way.

And of all people, I would think most of you would realize this.
You guys know of MMA, JeetKundo concepts. We already know one art cant do it all.

Imagine BJJ crawling on the ground like some animal waiting for you to fall. Of course they will do something that isnt ground technique to hope to get you down - and they cross train - dont they ;)

So when we drop the 'my art' is 'it' we wont have these type threads that keep popping up. :)

In this modern age with so much technology, ideas, techniques available to us...martial arts has evolved. Let us not forget that the military learns how to just eliminate the fight before they are on the ground wrestling - they kill the opponent.

So the above puts to rest quite quickly all the ego talk of who is the best...if there were no rules, the military techniques would win...but someone would be badly injured or killed.

It life, have fun...enjoy your ikkyos if your an aikido or your rolling on the ground if you BJJ, or you bloody noses if your a boxer. :)

Peace

Dalen

The US army uses combatives based of bjj and a few other sport based arts. That's if the shooting and stabbing fail of course.

Budd
07-26-2007, 07:22 AM
Here's the thing as well . . . if you're fairly new to aikido or bjj, you barely have the "moral authority" to describe much about the art(s) you DO train in - much less the art(s) that you don't.

Keith R Lee
07-26-2007, 09:26 AM
Can Aikido beat BJJ?
Can my sandan beat your sandan? :)

etc.


Not really sure why you went back through this thread and pulled out this one quote of mine...but I'll roll with it.

I only brought up the sandan rank because someone else was using it as a standard bearer for effectiveness in Aikido (along with a bunch of other crap that I don't remember, and don't care enough to look for it).

Personally, I think rank in any art that does not base its belt system on being able to perform well in "live" (rolling to submission, striking to TKO or KO, Ippon throw, etc.) competition means very little in regards to effectiveness of the practitioner in application.

Let's take BJJ for example since it seems popular to dogpile on. If I go up to any brown belt in almost any BJJ gym in the world, I know that the guy is going to be trouble on the ground; serious trouble. He should be able to give anyone difficulties. I know this because the guy obtained his rank by demonstrating that he is effective in a resistant, "live" environment.

Aikido (with Tomiki and its ilk being the exception) rank can be based on whatever. It's completely subjective and is entirely up to the instructor. I would think most people have met students in Aikido who are brown belts or shodans, not because of their talents or skill, but based upon the fact that they've just hung around for six or seven years. In my experience with BJJ thus far, I have yet to encounter this type of situation.

The only thing that approaches it is in BJJ tourneys where there is usually a "Masters" or "Executive" division for people 40 or 50+. And it's there because people know that even though someone might be a brown belt in BJJ at 55, they can't compete with a brown belt at 25, just based on sheer physicality. Whereas in Aikido, somehow the older you are...the better you get at it? :confused:

So whether someone is a 4 kyu or 2nd dan in Aikido, doesn't really make much of a difference to me. Again, (and I think lots of Aikido people miss this point and just get hung up on BJJ) it's not that BJJ and it's techniques are better or anything. Someone trained in BJJ, wrestling, boxing, etc. is more likely to be effective because they train and compete in a "alive" environment where they regularly encounter resistance and learn how to overcome it. In cooperative practice, you are never going to have that opportunity.

dalen7
07-27-2007, 01:42 AM
So whether someone is a 4 kyu or 2nd dan in Aikido, doesn't really make much of a difference to me. Again, (and I think lots of Aikido people miss this point and just get hung up on BJJ) it's not that BJJ and it's techniques are better or anything. Someone trained in BJJ, wrestling, boxing, etc. is more likely to be effective because they train and compete in a "alive" environment where they regularly encounter resistance and learn how to overcome it. In cooperative practice, you are never going to have that opportunity.

No I only pulled your quote for reference...it was not anything personal, etc...just to give context at the end of the long thread as I stopped not long after reading your post and had no clue where it twisted (the thread) at the end.

Yes, 'aliveness'. Thats interesting, and what I am seeing that is setting apart where I do aikido. Im not saying its 100% alive at all times...especially for beginners - but there is a degree of aliveness and even expected - our 2nd kyu left with bruises at the seminar, as well as myself. Again, Im not going to say its on the same line as BJJ, as its not fully 'alive', but I am grateful for the life thats in it. :)

Peace

Dalen

dalen7
07-27-2007, 01:52 AM
The only thing that approaches it is in BJJ tourneys where there is usually a "Masters" or "Executive" division for people 40 or 50+. And it's there because people know that even though someone might be a brown belt in BJJ at 55, they can't compete with a brown belt at 25, just based on sheer physicality. Whereas in Aikido, somehow the older you are...the better you get at it? :confused:

Totally agree with the latter statement.
You often wonder if these older people are just delusional that they could do something, or it there is something to their jedi 'ki' mind power tricks. ;)

eitherway,

Peace

Dalen

Dirk Hanss
07-27-2007, 03:36 AM
Hi all,
initially I did not intend to step in into another of these threads.

But there maybe some new thoughts, which just touched my mind.

While it is hardly to get really comparative people, lets say we could find some pairs of equivalent BJJ fighters and Aikidoka, same age, size, weight, strength, duration and intensiveness of training.

If youget organised a tournament, probably in 80% of the fights, BJJ guys win. Could be more, could be less. On the street the figures could be higher or lower, I won't bet, but probably virtually the same.

Grade is not a good measure as BJJ promotes for tournament success, aikido not. So even if the the training would prepare both the same, the selection in BJJ would prefer good fighters rather than aikido, where you could reach far with only minimum of fighting skills.

But why is it relevant? In tournaments usually Aikidoka do not attend. On the street it is unlikely that an Aikido master would attack a BJJ master. I am not sure about the other way. Is here anyone, who could tell me, if BJJ trains burglars, muggers or hooligans to mastership?

And yet another idea. Let's assume an extreme situation - and I do not care, if it is realistic as it is just a mind experience.

So if there is a well skilled Aikdioka participating in a MMA tournament. He does not even think about throwing or pinning the counterpart but avoids virtually any contact. So whom ever he would meet in this tournament, he had taken probably a few punches without any effect, and the others just fell over out of balance from time to time. In the end the aikidoka is still in quit good condition, while his partners are exhausted. How far would he have come? Or if it was an each-vs-each-tournament, where woild he be in the end? Probably disqualified for not fighting or right at the end for not scoring, I guess.

BJJ fighters seek to win.That is what they train for. That is why they choose BJJ (most of them) and that is where they are good.

Most Aikidoka have other goals. That is why most aikidoka are not very good in fight. Many of them (us) rather dance than fight. But if your goal is not to win, but to survive and to protect even your foes, then you create other skills. We can argue another 1000 times, if aikido is really teaching one of these goals. For me personally in my risk environment the aikido we train fits (nearly) perfectly. If I were somewhere else, it might have to be different. As BJJ fighters change there training according to the next tournament they plan to attend, the aikido training has to be adapted to the needs.

There is a general aikido training, which fits for most participants, but even this might change, if you have a dojo in Sao Paolo suburbs for adolescent students or in an Amish country site. And you need special training for military needs, law enforcements, street workers, teachers even depending on the school, or management coaching. If it is all in the spirit of budo as the "Path of Protection", it is aikido and the technical part is irrelevant. You can choose, whatever is applicable.

Peace and (active) harmony

Dirk

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
07-27-2007, 08:26 AM
So if there is a well skilled Aikdioka participating in a MMA tournament. He does not even think about throwing or pinning the counterpart but avoids virtually any contact. So whom ever he would meet in this tournament, he had taken probably a few punches without any effect, and the others just fell over out of balance from time to time. In the end the aikidoka is still in quit good condition, while his partners are exhausted.

Um. I'm not sure that's how that would go.

<MMA fighter> "Wow, I tried really hard to hit him, but those large pivots and evasive hand motions stymied me every time! I can only hit people who have trained for hours with other people who are also well-trained in striking."

Dirk Hanss
07-27-2007, 09:39 AM
Um. I'm not sure that's how that would go.
Paul,
I am nearly sure it would work like that. ;) :D
Just a thought experiment. It is unlikely to evade forever in a small cage or ring. However I have seen fights, where it worked for a while. And if there were such a talented aikidoka, who agreed upon showing up in a tournament, he would at least be able to set some punches and kicks for scoring.

It was an exaggerating description about where the differences are.

Best regards

Dirk

Ron Tisdale
07-27-2007, 09:39 AM
So whom ever he would meet in this tournament, he had taken probably a few punches without any effect, and the others just fell over out of balance from time to time. In the end the aikidoka is still in quit good condition, while his partners are exhausted. How far would he have come? Or if it was an each-vs-each-tournament, where woild he be in the end? Probably disqualified for not fighting or right at the end for not scoring, I guess.

I appreciate the effort you put into this post, but I think you are missing some crucial experience in the format you are discussing.

I have tried working evasions with people who are in good shape, trained in other arts (including wrestling and striking arts) and have found the following:

a) against conditioned atheletes, evasions only work for so long. They can expend way more energy when used against a cautious, skilled attack than you might think. You may be sucsessful for 2, 3, maybe even 5 evasions (I say may...this is best case). But the ma ai on each sucsessful evasion narrows...sooner or later you get caught. Strategies like xstep in, pivot, xstep back to re-establish distance help...but for the evasions to be sucsessful against a skilled fighter, you have to work on a VERY thin edge...and even slight changes in ma ai after a sucsessfull evasion can throw the next one off. To the point where a good boxer will tag you (hard) or a wrestler will have a good opportunity to shoot.

b) Once one of those two things happen, if you don't have strategies to cover and protect from being hit, or to stop a shot, you WILL get hit, or taken down, and have to carry the other persons weight while trying to escape or defend.

c) Establishing and maintaining ma ai in a closed environment like a cage, or even a mat with marked boundries and a referee to call time and bring you back in, is not the same as what we see in most aikido dojo. In a cage environment, any skilled fighter is going to cut corners, take angles, force you into a corner or up against the fence. If you can't deal with them there, you are going to have problems.

I'm not saying these stategies can't work for a short time...but sooner or later the rubber will have to meet the road...you will have to be able to fend off the commited, balanced attack while not sustaining damage. My prediction? If you haven't trained for the environment, you will get hosed.

Best,
Ron

Budd
07-27-2007, 09:45 AM
Good post, Ron. I had a much longer attempt to say what you succinctly put.

Thing is, you can train for these things to make your aikido better if it's of any interest. It doesn't mean you're suddenly competing, just maybe stepping outside the comfort zones a tad . . . (FWIW, to each their own and what not)

Just comes back to training goals, honestly testing them (and associated theories) and maybe being flexible about one's dogma - especially early on the learning curve (of course this can be applied to far more than just "aikidoka").

Dirk Hanss
07-27-2007, 09:50 AM
Ron,
you are right. neither do I have qualified experience in such fights, nor was the example meant to be realistic.

Dirk

Greg Jennings
07-29-2007, 02:40 PM
Guuueeezzz,

The more things change the more they remain the same.

Regards,

philippe willaume
07-31-2007, 12:16 PM
Hello

As Ron, Don, and Budd said “evasion” is not going to get you out of trouble unless you are facing an over committed attack..
It does not mater if it is self defence or competition, if you face an opponent that strike whilst being in balance (IE within his own space), you need to destroy/compromise his structure before getting close to do anything meaning full to him.
Voiding alone will not give you that.
Voiding will only give the time and the place if and if only your opponent is over -committed.
This applies to weapon as well, in fact it is even more critical to weapon because double hit means double kill and that defeats the whole purpose of fencing so it does not make sense to “only evade” with or without a sword either.

Sure you can make someone over extend, we probably all had some why-the-hell-did-I-do-that-for moments when sparring. But I think you need to be very very good to produce that consistently. (And I believe some people are capable of that.)

As Keith said, is not so much at the technical level, sparing will give you two things (that can be replicated in randory/kokyu nague and parried practice), it is the sense of distance /timing and active resistance. There is no need for competition, or even sparing per see. From my experience sparing can not really tell you what does work but it will tell you what does not work. But I believe this is something we need to bear in mind when we train at least from time to time.

Phil

Sensei Green
08-08-2007, 10:03 AM
I think Anthony Towsley probably had the best advise. It is wise to have a little BJJ training, or at least exposure. Movement is important. Don't be there when they shoot for the legs. If they do shoot for the legs, like suggested, make them pay. Knees are great in that situation. If they do get you down, most Aikido techniques won't do much for you on their turf. I would also suggest attacking soft and vulnerable areas of their body. It's a difficult situation no doubt, but with a little training, it can be done.

statisticool
08-08-2007, 02:13 PM
To beat on a BJJ person?

Drumsticks?

ba dum bumb!

Aristeia
08-08-2007, 03:14 PM
I I would also suggest attacking soft and vulnerable areas of their body.winning on the ground is mostly about correct leverage and movement. Attcking soft targets without that leverage & movement will at best irritate the BJJer and at worst hurt them enough to *really* annoy them and then they will so some real damage. imo.

Mike Hamer
08-14-2007, 05:06 PM
I dont know, but I happen to know for a fact that kotegaishi works just fine when someone has the mount on you.

Aristeia
08-14-2007, 06:36 PM
Depends who the someone is I guess.

DonMagee
08-15-2007, 01:08 PM
I dont know, but I happen to know for a fact that kotegaishi works just fine when someone has the mount on you.

I'd have to see it to believe it. The way I ride mount is usually in one of two forms

1) grapevined legs, arms out wide for base, digging my weight right into your sternum keeping you from breathing and waiting for the submission.

2) Riding up very high with my legs pushing your arms up over your head, punching you in the face or preparing an armbar with a 2 on 1 grip.

In the mount you have no leverage, no strength, and no way of moving yourself to an angle on me. Essentially it should be impossible to apply any significant turn to my wrist. The person in the mount has the ability to use leverage, strength, weight, and his free hand to pound on you as needed. I'd probably be willing to give my hand to a person while I'm in the mount if it keeps them busy while I start dropping elbows.

Ron Tisdale
08-15-2007, 01:11 PM
I can see kotegaeshi working well when the person mounting you doesn't know BJJ or submission grappling very well. Otherwise, I'd have to see it to make any kind of judgement.

Best,
Ron

Budd
08-15-2007, 01:50 PM
Actually, everyone knows that when you're mounted, the best technique is kaiten nage . . . . followed by eye gouges, hair pulling and a groin stomp. Once you get back to your feet, quickly sprinkle glass and lava on the ground and then you will have nothing to fear from a groundfighter . . .

statisticool
08-20-2007, 05:58 AM
Actually, everyone knows that when you're mounted, the best technique is kaiten nage . . . . followed by eye gouges, hair pulling and a groin stomp. Once you get back to your feet, quickly sprinkle glass and lava on the ground and then you will have nothing to fear from a groundfighter . . .

We all know that in real life, then best method is to gradually scoot your opponent against some cage that you happen to be fighting in, then run out the time on the clock. After the time runs out on the magical clock you get a break and you will be rested. Then just resume the fight standing up. ;)

Budd
08-20-2007, 08:04 AM
I hate those kind of fights. If you're competing in a sport, I'd rather see you try to win by knockout or submission than try not to lose by laying and (maybe) preying.

The good news for aikido people is that virtually no one will force them to get in a cage with a bjj guy - so cage jitsu shouldn't be a concern unless you willingly go there.

med
08-20-2007, 09:16 AM
I'm an aikidoka. not a grappler. I would suggest that taking on a grappler at grappling is unwise.

On the flip side I would like to add a short anecdote.. (Yawn)

I was working in a club not far from my house. I was stood watching the crowd and a very large gentleman approached me as I happened to be on the route to the exit. The man swung at my groin and moved to nut me. I didn't move. he turned to me and said.

"hurhur would of got you then wouldn't I mate?!"

Being a pro I said nothing and smiled with a 'yeah woah you're so cool' roll of my eyes. Normally I don't even consider saying anything but it crossed my mind to banter

"I suppose we'll never know.."

I felt bad for thinking it.

philippe willaume
08-21-2007, 04:27 AM
I dont know, but I happen to know for a fact that kotegaishi works just fine when someone has the mount on you.

Hello
Well yes, it does as does ikkio, nikkio, sankio and so on.
In fact it does works from either side of the mount.
The case of the two hand on the throat strangle is a good exemple. Especially since the natural tendancy is to put your boddy weigh at 90 degree of the arms (hence you are weakening your hip position and the control on the guy being mounted.
However, in my experience it is due to the guy in the mount rushing things or being inexperienced.

Any thing that is function of what Don mentioned will not give you the opportunity, basically if you are mounted; you are very likely buggered bar a cock up from the mounting side. It is not as bad in pure BJJ (i.e. were there is no pounding allowed) but it is still not a great position to be in.

Phil

Aristeia
08-21-2007, 05:38 AM
Sankyo from under mount?

Bill Brownlow
08-21-2007, 10:01 AM
The only thing that approaches it is in BJJ tourneys where there is usually a "Masters" or "Executive" division for people 40 or 50+. And it's there because people know that even though someone might be a brown belt in BJJ at 55, they can't compete with a brown belt at 25, just based on sheer physicality. Whereas in Aikido, somehow the older you are...the better you get at it? :confused:



I must object! Having just "graduated" to the Executive division, this attitude just grinds my gears. If I didn't think I had the physicality to compete, I wouldn't have entered the tourney in the first place.:disgust:

Its not that I mind that there are age divisions per se, but its the way tourneys are usually run: Say if there are not enough belts in the executive 180lb division, that division gets combined with the executive 195lb division. I would rather compete with the 25 yr old 180lb division. IMO the age/physicality advantage of the younger guy is less than the weight advantage of the heavier guy.

Or maybe I'm just in great shape for an old fart. :D

Bill

donplummer
08-21-2007, 10:16 AM
a rabid pitbull would seem to work, they enjoy ground-fighting as well...perhaps Michael Vick would sponsor the exhibition match??? are any of the Gracies available???

DonMagee
08-21-2007, 11:12 AM
I must object! Having just "graduated" to the Executive division, this attitude just grinds my gears. If I didn't think I had the physicality to compete, I wouldn't have entered the tourney in the first place.:disgust:

Its not that I mind that there are age divisions per se, but its the way tourneys are usually run: Say if there are not enough belts in the executive 180lb division, that division gets combined with the executive 195lb division. I would rather compete with the 25 yr old 180lb division. IMO the age/physicality advantage of the younger guy is less than the weight advantage of the heavier guy.

Or maybe I'm just in great shape for an old fart. :D

Bill
Most of the guys I know compete in the normal adult and the masters or executive divisions if they are old enough.

Daniel Ranger-Holt
08-31-2007, 07:31 AM
I have lately been coming across much boasting by the Brazilian Jujitsu practioners about their grappling techniques and claims that no martial art would stand a chance once you are on the ground how ever there must be more than one Aikido technique which if applied in that second the Brazilian Jujitsu fighter reaches with his hand to grab would neutralize the whole attack so what is it in your opinion?

Good read this topic. I would think if you're trying to neautrilize a fairly new BJJ grappler (2-3 years) and are fairly new (2-3 years) in aikido, you wouldnt have a hope. I don't question a 10 yr (for example) black belt aikidoka would be able to fend them off and possibly do something, but the level Ahmed (i assume) is at, its very very frustrating and in a way, pointless trying to think of what do.

I love Aikido and only know Aikido, i am thinking of cross training BJJ. As someone pointed out Aikido isn't live enough to compete with BJJ if you're talking equal settings for both art, (same amount of training, same level of student etc) the BJJ would alway sbe superior, this is how i see it. I know people disagree but this is my opinion even with me being someone probably bias toward Aikido. I am truthful about it.

No one will ever be the ultimate self defence machine, who would want to be, what kind of paranoid existance would that be, but having the two essentials (as i see it) standing, and on the ground covered makes sense if you are studying Aikido PURELY for defence. Which i am, and didnt know at the time i would need to study more for PURE self defence. Someone attacking me.

I was told Aikido would be all i need for basic self defence, but its apparent now some groundwork would be needed, it seems obvious to me. Im not speaking about the exception dojos where groundwork grappling is taught, fine, i would have gone to them had i have known over a year ago when i started Aikido, but i was under the impression Aikido was all i would need. My own fault, didnt research enough and just went to my dojo. Reverse time i would have loved to have been a year and a few month as a BJJ and Aikido.

If i find a BJJ near me i can go to without conflicting my Aikido training (when i have the cash) i seriously think i would do it. For what i need (basic self defence without trying to be an expert in both arts) it seems essential. But you would HAVE to have Aikido as well in my humble opinion.

Aikido just takes so long to learn to be able to use it effectively, you would have to study something else as well. This is what i would have suggested to someone like me looking for Aikido as pure self defence. This is why i see a lot of people appear at our dojo and not come back after 7 or so months. They enjoy Aikido but see the long stretch and talk of 20 year techniques etc...

Sigh:(

Jeremy Lambert
09-02-2007, 12:29 PM
Don't attack him

wildaikido
09-02-2007, 01:20 PM
There are way to many pages for me to get through (I did try) so I will just add to the end, and people can refer me back :)

If you look at all the “(martial art of choice) vs. BJJ” on youtube, there is one thing that the Gracie's (which are in the majority of them) have that the other martial artist do not have. That is spirit. To be effective in a martial encounter with Aikido you must have the superior spirit. All of those guys on youtube have no chance because their spirit is nothing compared to that of their opponent.

The important thing with Aikido is you must "defeat" your opponent at the moment of contact. With mindful, consistent, and hard training, specifically randori, you develop awareness. Your awareness and the basic principles of Aikido, such as protect your centre (line), you will be aware of the attack, and you can neutralise it at the moment of contact.

If you look at these youtube videos you see the people spar as they train. The other martial artists are not used to the rushed clash and frenzy of the fight. The BJJ guys train this so they can handle it.

Fact:
You fight how you train!

The wonderful thing about someone who does a grappling art is they want to grab you. So in theory GOOD Aikido should be good to defend against someone who wants to grapple you. The fact is ALL the early greats (Mochizuki, Shioda, Tomiki, etc) were judoka, and old school judoka, so their ground fighting was identical to BJJ (for those who don't believe this, look at material from Mifune and Kawaishi). All of these men were students of O'Sensei because they could not beat him (The story of Shioda comes to mind). They were proficient grapplers and could not take down O'Sensei. So GOOD Aikido will enable you to defend against a BJJer.

As for techniques, according to the source (O’Sensei), “In combat Aikido is 90% atemi.” So at the moment of contact a properly placed atemi should be sufficient. This may sound naive, but I am not talking about just trying to hit the person, remember I said you must have mindful consistent hard training to develop awareness. With superior awareness, you can defeat any opponent. You remember all those stories about O’Sensei and his spider sense, awareness! His ability to use “simple” techniques to defeat all opponents, including swordsmen, awareness! If you are aware of how your opponent will attack you, you can do anything you want to defeat him. A BJJ is someone who won’t easily tire, and will keep coming, so it has to be lights out. A solid strike to the side of the chin is the proven way to knock someone out with atemi. The rapid turn of the head as a result of the blow, causes the vertebrae in the neck to separate slightly. The result of this is an emergency shut down of the brain to make sure damage does not occur (the scene from Snatch with Brad Pit and the big bare knuckle boxer at the caravan park comes to mind).

Alternatively you could do what we do in Yoseikan, and train in grappling. Personal, I like the fact that O'Sensei didn't have to do this, so this is what I want to achieve.

Regards,

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
09-02-2007, 01:44 PM
there is one thing that the Gracie's (which are in the majority of them) have that the other martial artist do not have. That is spirit.
Yeah, I'm thinking they had a little more than "spirit". Like "better technique" and possibly "superior training."

The wonderful thing about someone who does a grappling art is they want to grab you. So in theory GOOD Aikido should be good to defend against someone who wants to grapple you.
That doesn't follow. Aikido grabs are very different from BJJ or wrestling takedowns. (See the "Aikido is about weapons" discussions.)

The fact is ALL the early greats (Mochizuki, Shioda, Tomiki, etc) were judoka, and old school judoka, so their ground fighting was identical to BJJ (for those who don't believe this, look at material from Mifune and Kawaishi).
Well, since BJJ is basically Kodokan newaza expanded and further-developed, I guess this is more or less accurate. More or less.


All of these men were students of O'Sensei because they could not beat him (The story of Shioda comes to mind). They were proficient grapplers and could not take down O'Sensei. So GOOD Aikido will enable you to defend against a BJJer.
O-Sensei's training was a lot broader than modern aikido. In fact, he didn't train in modern aikido. He did judo, sumo, and a variety of other things that included grappling.

You remember all those stories about O'Sensei and his spider sense, awareness!
This was not developed from his aiki studies. Rather, in Manchuria, he was on one occasion bitten by a radioactive spider.

A BJJ is someone who won't easily tire, and will keep coming, so it has to be lights out. A solid strike to the side of the chin is the proven way to knock someone out with atemi.
Yes, it is. Example:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jUCBOWTazHE

As an aside...wow. Just found this clip on YouTube:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TPxkEkGUeZU

That does look familiar, I admit. (I don't mean that as a serious argument.) Anyway, though, the arts that focus on fast knockouts via blows to the chin are ones like boxing and Muay Thai.

Alternatively you could do what we do in Yoseikan, and train in grappling. Personal, I like the fact that O'Sensei didn't have to do this, so this is what I want to achieve.
But...he did train in grappling!

wildaikido
09-02-2007, 03:09 PM
Yeah, I'm thinking they had a little more than "spirit". Like "better technique" and possibly "superior training."

It does not matter how good your techniques are, if you have no spirit you can do nothing. Some would say without spirit there is no life, some.

That doesn't follow. Aikido grabs are very different from BJJ or wrestling takedowns. (See the "Aikido is about weapons" discussions.)

Not the ones that would have been used by trained judoka like Mochizuki and Shioda to attack O'Sensei, and not the ones we use in Yoseikan. If you are limiting the technical scope of Aikido, it is not Aikido.

Well, since BJJ is basically Kodokan newaza expanded and further-developed, I guess this is more or less accurate. More or less.

I would agree that it is a little more developed then some judo Ne-Waza, but just from the point of view of self defence. Look at Kosen Judo (high school Judo) were the majority of training is done on the ground for safety purposes.

O-Sensei's training was a lot broader than modern aikido. In fact, he didn't train in modern aikido. He did judo, sumo, and a variety of other things that included grappling.

But the point is he defeated his attackers with the "simple" techniques he was learning from Daito Ryu. This is how Mochizuki Kancho described it! O'Sensei would learn from Takeda, who would only teach him. Then when he left, O'Sensei would call the others back into the dojo and basically say "attack me." From here O'Sensei would use what he had just learnt to defeat all of them. Then when he was finished, the students got a chance to try against each other. No teaching, just training!

This was not developed from his aiki studies. Rather, in Manchuria, he was on one occasion bitten by a radioactive spider.

My joke is still intended to contain the serious message. Many students who attacked O'Sensei state that it was like he knew how they would attack. One even tried to deceive him by changing his attack, and O'Sensei said, "that won't work either," before he had even attacked. If a man like Mochizuki Kancho recalls stories like this, I can do nothing but believe they were true.

Yes, it is. Example:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jUCBOWTazHE

As an aside...wow. Just found this clip on YouTube:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TPxkEkGUeZU

That does look familiar, I admit. (I don't mean that as a serious argument.) Anyway, though, the arts that focus on fast knockouts via blows to the chin are ones like boxing and Muay Thai.

I study Aikido and I study "fast knockouts via blows to the chin." Again limiting the techniques of Aikido means that it is not Aikido

But...he did train in grappling!

His small amount of training is both Sumo and Judo would have contributed to his overall martial development, but this does not mean he was a grappler. Takeda only studied Daito Ryu (or whatever it was called back then). Takeda easily overcame O'Sensei when he was challenged him.

Regards,

Aristeia
09-03-2007, 12:33 AM
mostly - what Paul said.

Graham - I'm intrigued by your comments that if you limit the techniques of Aikido it's not Aikido? Are you suggesting that everything is Aikido? In which case the term becomes meaningless neh?

wildaikido
09-03-2007, 03:41 AM
Graham - I'm intrigued by your comments that if you limit the techniques of Aikido it's not Aikido? Are you suggesting that everything is Aikido? In which case the term becomes meaningless neh?

Aikido is an art of principles, not techniques. There is a story of O'Sensei breaking the arm of a karateka, this is very different to the view you have when you look at some training. The method O'Sensei used to develop Aikido was to take the techniques he learnt from Takeda and made them Jiyu Waza. From here O'Sensei developed the principles that make up Aikido, that is what was required for him to defeat hi attackers.

Ai (Harmony)
Ki (energy)
Kokyo (breath)
Kokoro (spirit)
Awase (blending)
Kuzushi (unbalance)
Irimi (enter)
Tenkan (turn)
Atemi (hit the body)
Kiai (spirit shout)
Hitoemi (avoiding the attack)
Enten Jizai (Attack and defence as one)
Maai (spatial awareness) O’Sensei used to talk about the old tradition of Mizu Uchi or Suigetsu (moon and water)

The list is longer, but not limitless. Implement these principles and the technique is unimportant, master them, and awareness, and there is no need for technique!

So if your attacker is a BJJer who is going to take you down and choke you out, harmonising and blending will mean you knock him out. I prefer open hand strikes to the head. A well placed gyaku yokomen to the chin will achieve the same result as a hook. Other wise I suggest an elbow. This is how we train our irimi for kote gaeshi, elbow to the chin, body to the elbow.

The technical syllabus for Aikido did not appear until after O’Sensei’s death in 1972. That is why in O’Sensei’s terms you have Ikkyo (first teaching), Nikyo (second teaching) etc. I just wish someone could tell me what we were supposed to learn in each of these teachings. Specifically, with the subtle difference between the omote versions of each “techniques”. Maybe one day with enough kenkyu I will figure it out.

Regards,

DonMagee
09-03-2007, 09:28 AM
It does not matter how good your techniques are, if you have no spirit you can do nothing. Some would say without spirit there is no life, some.

Not the ones that would have been used by trained judoka like Mochizuki and Shioda to attack O'Sensei, and not the ones we use in Yoseikan. If you are limiting the technical scope of Aikido, it is not Aikido.

I would agree that it is a little more developed then some judo Ne-Waza, but just from the point of view of self defence. Look at Kosen Judo (high school Judo) were the majority of training is done on the ground for safety purposes.

But the point is he defeated his attackers with the "simple" techniques he was learning from Daito Ryu. This is how Mochizuki Kancho described it! O'Sensei would learn from Takeda, who would only teach him. Then when he left, O'Sensei would call the others back into the dojo and basically say "attack me." From here O'Sensei would use what he had just learnt to defeat all of them. Then when he was finished, the students got a chance to try against each other. No teaching, just training!

My joke is still intended to contain the serious message. Many students who attacked O'Sensei state that it was like he knew how they would attack. One even tried to deceive him by changing his attack, and O'Sensei said, "that won't work either," before he had even attacked. If a man like Mochizuki Kancho recalls stories like this, I can do nothing but believe they were true.

I study Aikido and I study "fast knockouts via blows to the chin." Again limiting the techniques of Aikido means that it is not Aikido

His small amount of training is both Sumo and Judo would have contributed to his overall martial development, but this does not mean he was a grappler. Takeda only studied Daito Ryu (or whatever it was called back then). Takeda easily overcame O'Sensei when he was challenged him.

Regards,

I have to ask, although I agree a hard knock out punch will knock you out, how are you training that punch? When I train I focus on proper head movement, and strikes to setup my takedowns (its' a fight not a bjj match). So are you training to deal with trained strikers closing the distance to a clinch?

I personally never recommend the one punch one kill approach. I've been hit very hard with no effect, I've been grazed and knocked on my butt. It's not reliable. This is why the UFC calls it a punchers chance.

darin
09-03-2007, 10:36 AM
"Elbow to the chin, body to the elbow" Sounds very familiar! Also instead of turning the wrist out you roll it back into your opponent. Works very well especially if you lean your weight onto the wrist and the wrist is clenched or is holding a knife.

I reckon the best answer is if you have trained BJJ guys in your dojo, have them attack you. I don't think its that easy to take down someone who has been doing aikido for a while. Even if they do you will soon work out what they are doing. Aikidoists don't attack unlike BJJ or UFC style fighting where your forced to fight. It could be frustrating for them in sparring.

Recently one of my friends who is well trained in kickboxing and grappling sparred with my students. We do an exercise where you have to defend against a person wearing 16 ounce gloves. My guys would get in easily and do sutemi or keep their distance and get kotegaeshi, mukae doashi or dogaeshi but my friend just weathered the punches and went in for double leg take downs. My top students worked out his strategy pretty quickly so they just maintained distance resulting in him often tripping over and having to use kicks and punches to distract his attackers. He called me the next day and said that what we do is far more efficient, suitable for women, old people and for him if he was sick as it required less energy. Will he change to aikido? No. He wants to do UFC ground and pound.

Aikido is self defense not a ring sport. Some of the NHB moves aren't practical against larger/heavier opponents and could put you in dangerous positions if used on the street.

wildaikido
09-03-2007, 10:50 AM
I have to ask, although I agree a hard knock out punch will knock you out, how are you training that punch? When I train I focus on proper head movement, and strikes to setup my takedowns (its' a fight not a bjj match). So are you training to deal with trained strikers closing the distance to a clinch?

I personally never recommend the one punch one kill approach. I've been hit very hard with no effect, I've been grazed and knocked on my butt. It's not reliable. This is why the UFC calls it a punchers chance.

I made it quite clear that the requirement to succeed with a "simple" technique is superior awareness. Currently my awareness is good enough to deal with people on depressive drugs, like alcohol, possible a random untrained mugger. Is it good enough for a trained fighter? NO! I never said it was. I said O'Sensei's was, hence the overwhelming success Aikido had when it first spread around the world. I also stated the purpose of Budo is the development of awareness, and consistence hard mindful training cultivates awareness.

The physiological result of a blow to the side of the chin has been proven. Right now, if for some unknown reason I had to defend myself against a BJJer I am going for the choke aswell, because as I said before, in Yoseikan we learn to ground fight.

Regards,

philippe willaume
09-03-2007, 12:04 PM
I have to ask, although I agree a hard knock out punch will knock you out, how are you training that punch? When I train I focus on proper head movement, and strikes to setup my takedowns (its' a fight not a bjj match). So are you training to deal with trained strikers closing the distance to a clinch?

I personally never recommend the one punch one kill approach. I've been hit very hard with no effect, I've been grazed and knocked on my butt. It's not reliable. This is why the UFC calls it a punchers chance.

Hello, don
That what I think atemi should be used for.
I can not remember the name of the coach that the said that. He is a relatively famous wrestling MMA coach in the US, (I can not give him credit where it is due). Basically he said that you should punch like you go for a shoot.

That being said and almost in a paradoxal way, a punch has a good chance of knock out in self defence as it usually kicks in at conversation range. (I.e. punching range)
In essence that is what Geof Thompson fence + pre-emptive strike is based on. (And that is a one punch one kill strategy; the rest is seen as secondary skill to have in case of).

Phil

Aristeia
09-03-2007, 01:36 PM
So graham it's using simple techniques that will work but to make them work you need almost superhuman awareness?

This conversation is starting to sound familiar. Knocking out a grappler as they clinch is great if you can manage it, but a terrible "go to" strategy - because it has been shown time and again even the best strikers struggle to do it. Pointing to legends of someone long dead for evidence that it is what we should be doing is unacceptable.
Telling people that this is how it should work in theory but that pretty much no one today has develeoped their awareness or spirit or ki enough is unacceptable. If people are looking for fighting solutions then martial leaders need to be able to provide proven and reliable methods that deliver results in less than half a lifetime.

As always, the way to deal with grapplers is to learn how to grapple effectively. Or stay out of their way.

Tijani1150
09-03-2007, 05:31 PM
As always, the way to deal with grapplers is to learn how to grapple effectively. Or stay out of their way.

I wonder if there ever was an encounter between a grappler and O Sensei or Shioda?

Aristeia
09-03-2007, 07:30 PM
To a large part it's irrelevent imo. In Aikido we seem to spend an inordinate amount of time regaling each other with stories of what Ueshiba could do. What difference does that make if the modern generation can't replicate it? Surely we should be expecting subsequent generations to be delivering superior rather than inferior outcomes?

DonMagee
09-03-2007, 08:46 PM
I made it quite clear that the requirement to succeed with a "simple" technique is superior awareness. Currently my awareness is good enough to deal with people on depressive drugs, like alcohol, possible a random untrained mugger. Is it good enough for a trained fighter? NO! I never said it was. I said O'Sensei's was, hence the overwhelming success Aikido had when it first spread around the world. I also stated the purpose of Budo is the development of awareness, and consistence hard mindful training cultivates awareness.

The physiological result of a blow to the side of the chin has been proven. Right now, if for some unknown reason I had to defend myself against a BJJer I am going for the choke aswell, because as I said before, in Yoseikan we learn to ground fight.

Regards,

I was not trying to imply anything. I was simply asking what training methods you use to develop this skill. However you bring up an interesting point. Training to fight trained fighters will defiantly allow you to fight untrained fighters. But training for only untrained fighters will only help you fight untrained fighters.

But that is beyond the point. I simply want to know what training methods you use to develop your striking.

darin
09-03-2007, 09:00 PM
I think its best to train with both trained and untrained fighters. I don't think anyone is fully prepared to deal with a mugger, someone high on drugs or drunk. Thing is in a real situation your bound to be outnumbered and attacked either from behind or by surprise and attackers sometimes do carry or will use something in the vicinity as a weapon. There is also the threat of spending jail time just for defending yourself.

Be safe.

Keith R Lee
09-03-2007, 09:35 PM
To a large part it's irrelevent imo. In Aikido we seem to spend an inordinate amount of time regaling each other with stories of what Ueshiba could do. What difference does that make if the modern generation can't replicate it? Surely we should be expecting subsequent generations to be delivering superior rather than inferior outcomes?

I agree that this seems to come up quite often. I not concerned with what Ueshiba could do. Not only that, I fall in the camp that believes Ueshiba, even in his prime, he would get his @$$ handed to him by today's MMA elite. Fighting has evolved far past what existed in Ueshiba's heyday. Not to mention many Japanese MAs tend to veer into self-congratulatory groupthink territory in regards to their effectiveness, founders, etc (IMO).

MMA/BJJ/"alive" training paradigms provide a forum for which a person can try things, see how they work, and measure them. As opposed to relying on supposition, hypotheticals, and hearsay about how a certain technique "should" work. It makes me think of the XKCD shirt "Science" found here: http://www.xkcd.com/store/ (scroll down) :p

wildaikido
09-04-2007, 01:30 AM
I think its best to train with both trained and untrained fighters. I don't think anyone is fully prepared to deal with a mugger, someone high on drugs or drunk. Thing is in a real situation your bound to be outnumbered and attacked either from behind or by surprise and attackers sometimes do carry or will use something in the vicinity as a weapon. There is also the threat of spending jail time just for defending yourself.

Be safe.

I know I am prepared to deal with someone high on drugs and someone drunk, because I have done it! I have had two self defence situations the first on was a drunk guy (two but I had a friend), the second was with a guy who had been sniffing glue and paint (don't know if this is a stimulant or depressant). I don't think I will every need to deal with a mugger as they target easy weak people. I do, however, feel confident from my two encounters and training that I could defend my self against an untrained person. If I did not I would not train at a self defence school.

Regards,

wildaikido
09-04-2007, 01:31 AM
I was not trying to imply anything. I was simply asking what training methods you use to develop this skill. However you bring up an interesting point. Training to fight trained fighters will defiantly allow you to fight untrained fighters. But training for only untrained fighters will only help you fight untrained fighters.

But that is beyond the point. I simply want to know what training methods you use to develop your striking.

Consistent hard mindful training will develop awareness.

Regards,

wildaikido
09-04-2007, 01:36 AM
So graham it's using simple techniques that will work but to make them work you need almost superhuman awareness?

This conversation is starting to sound familiar. Knocking out a grappler as they clinch is great if you can manage it, but a terrible "go to" strategy - because it has been shown time and again even the best strikers struggle to do it. Pointing to legends of someone long dead for evidence that it is what we should be doing is unacceptable.
Telling people that this is how it should work in theory but that pretty much no one today has develeoped their awareness or spirit or ki enough is unacceptable. If people are looking for fighting solutions then martial leaders need to be able to provide proven and reliable methods that deliver results in less than half a lifetime.QUOTE]

If you watch Mifune do judo, you see his awareness, it is for this reason he could not be thrown. I see footage of Mochizuki Kancho doing Judo, and I see the same awareness. Hence it is possible to develop this awareness.

[QUOTE=Michael Fooks;188522]As always, the way to deal with grapplers is to learn how to grapple effectively. Or stay out of their way.

People don't read! I said in Yoseikan we learn to grapple, I also said that in the highly unlikely situation were I have to defend myself against a trained BJJer I am happy to go to the floor!

darin
09-04-2007, 03:02 AM
I know I am prepared to deal with someone high on drugs and someone drunk, because I have done it! I have had two self defence situations the first on was a drunk guy (two but I had a friend), the second was with a guy who had been sniffing glue and paint (don't know if this is a stimulant or depressant). I don't think I will every need to deal with a mugger as they target easy weak people. I do, however, feel confident from my two encounters and training that I could defend my self against an untrained person. If I did not I would not train at a self defence school.

Regards,

You missed my point. And yes even big strong guys like you do get mugged or worse. I don't think its something you can be too confident about. Self defense Is about common sense and luck.

wildaikido
09-04-2007, 03:53 AM
You missed my point. And yes even big strong guys like you do get mugged or worse. I don't think its something you can be too confident about. Self defense Is about common sense and luck.

I would put common sense under the umbrella of awareness. As a scientist and mathematician, I would also put luck in the same category of awareness. In any situation, which from the point of view of mathematics I will call a game, as in game theory, luck is about probability. If you are aware of the numbers relevant to your game, and other facts, specifically human factors, you can make luck be on your side. This is what you see with great poker players. How many unknown people with no experience/training have won the world poker tour? This is a legitimate question as I have no idea, but I would be surprised if the number was not zero!

I am about to start a new thread on stats, so I will leave most of the stuff I want to talk about to that.

Regards,

darin
09-04-2007, 06:09 AM
Doesn't mathematics and games have rules and boundaries? The street doesn't.

PeterR
09-04-2007, 06:40 AM
There are rules and boundries to anything and everything. You just need to know them.

DonMagee
09-04-2007, 06:44 AM
Consistent hard mindful training will develop awareness.

Regards,

Why are you dodging?

I could play chess with that definition. Will it give me self defense skills?

wildaikido
09-04-2007, 07:10 AM
Why are you dodging?

I am not dodging anything. Mochizuki Kancho said consistent hard mindful training develops awareness. He also said awareness is the key to the superior techniques of O'Sensei. I am trying to share the insight of a great budo master.

I could play chess with that definition. Will it give me self defense skills?

The japanese think so. I recently posted the story of the Tea Master

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=188402#post188402

you can read that.

Regards,

philippe willaume
09-04-2007, 08:40 AM
here is teh link I mentioned

http://bisons.net/wrestle_box.htm
http://bisons.net/punchingps.htm

phil

DonMagee
09-04-2007, 09:28 AM
I am not dodging anything. Mochizuki Kancho said consistent hard mindful training develops awareness. He also said awareness is the key to the superior techniques of O'Sensei. I am trying to share the insight of a great budo master.

The japanese think so. I recently posted the story of the Tea Master

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=188402#post188402

you can read that.

Regards,

Cool, the next time a white belt asks me how to pass the guard. Rather then explain some drills that will help develop this skill. I will tell him to just practice hard with awareness or some other meta-physical mumbo jumbo. He will figure it out eventually.

However, I'll bite in your vagueness. What are you doing in your training while you are consistent and mindful? Personally, I like to paint myself blue with a magic marker, do keg stands, and do jumping jacks. While I do this I contemplate extending ki and being the center of the universe. I plan to enter the UFC this summer with this training method. I mean, I'm being mindful, that's good enough right?

Furthermore, being mindful and aware is not some deep insight. It's obvious advice. My father taught it to me at a young age. He would say to me after doing something stupid "Hey, that was stupid hu? Pay more attention next time and that won't happen."

I don't need training methods to make me more aware. What I need training methods for is to develop proper technique and muscle memory while fostering fitness and developing strategy. The being mindful comes from just paying attention, and the awareness is a by product. The big advantage is I learn to punch, clinch, takedown, choke a person trying their best to do it back to me. If I just played chess, I would learn none of that.

wildaikido
09-04-2007, 10:02 AM
Cool, the next time a white belt asks me how to pass the guard. Rather then explain some drills that will help develop this skill. I will tell him to just practice hard with awareness or some other meta-physical mumbo jumbo. He will figure it out eventually.

However, I'll bite in your vagueness. What are you doing in your training while you are consistent and mindful? Personally, I like to paint myself blue with a magic marker, do keg stands, and do jumping jacks. While I do this I contemplate extending ki and being the center of the universe. I plan to enter the UFC this summer with this training method. I mean, I'm being mindful, that's good enough right?

The true goal of awareness is to get to the point where we never have to pass the guard. If you weren’t so narrow minded you may understand this. The higher goal of Aikido is that we hopefully become aware of why we would be attacked in the first place. For example, why would someone mug us? With the answer to this question then we can become aware of how to fix the problem.

After we have developed an awareness of simple problems, then we move on to the bigger problems. Why would someone blow themselves up to kill people, or even fly a plane into a building!

Furthermore, being mindful and aware is not some deep insight. It's obvious advice. My father taught it to me at a young age. He would say to me after doing something stupid "Hey, that was stupid hu? Pay more attention next time and that won't happen."

This does not make it any less important when your father first told you, did you stop doing stupid mindless things? Probably not!

I don't need training methods to make me more aware. What I need training methods for is to develop proper technique and muscle memory while fostering fitness and developing strategy. The being mindful comes from just paying attention, and the awareness is a by product. The big advantage is I learn to punch, clinch, takedown, choke a person trying their best to do it back to me. If I just played chess, I would learn none of that.

I will see if I can find some statistics to see if being an expert chess player makes it less likely you get assaulted or mugged. I suspect that I won’t find any, but I think the common sense and strategy they learn (plus the beating they get in school) would be enough to teach them, don’t walk dangerous streets at night, lock your doors and windows at night, and be cautious on public transport. They may also understand that a sure fire way to deal with a mugger is capsicum spray, and if they are in the US, then a gun can be great for home invasions.

Like I said, it is a Japanese idea, not mine. I train in the same way as you for the same reason. But I like to try and implement the important principles left behind by great teachers like Mochizuki (and Kano) “mutual welfare and prosperity,” and from O’Sensei, “true victory is self victory.”

Good luck with the smurf UFC, I look forward to watching it.

Regards,

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
09-04-2007, 10:55 AM
Pointing to legends of someone long dead for evidence that it is what we should be doing is unacceptable.

Hear, hear.

DonMagee
09-04-2007, 11:57 AM
The true goal of awareness is to get to the point where we never have to pass the guard. If you weren't so narrow minded you may understand this. The higher goal of Aikido is that we hopefully become aware of why we would be attacked in the first place. For example, why would someone mug us? With the answer to this question then we can become aware of how to fix the problem.

After we have developed an awareness of simple problems, then we move on to the bigger problems. Why would someone blow themselves up to kill people, or even fly a plane into a building!

This does not make it any less important when your father first told you, did you stop doing stupid mindless things? Probably not!

I will see if I can find some statistics to see if being an expert chess player makes it less likely you get assaulted or mugged. I suspect that I won't find any, but I think the common sense and strategy they learn (plus the beating they get in school) would be enough to teach them, don't walk dangerous streets at night, lock your doors and windows at night, and be cautious on public transport. They may also understand that a sure fire way to deal with a mugger is capsicum spray, and if they are in the US, then a gun can be great for home invasions.

Like I said, it is a Japanese idea, not mine. I train in the same way as you for the same reason. But I like to try and implement the important principles left behind by great teachers like Mochizuki (and Kano) "mutual welfare and prosperity," and from O'Sensei, "true victory is self victory."

Good luck with the smurf UFC, I look forward to watching it.

Regards,

which still dodges the question. Very political of you. Just tell me you don't want to answer it instead of dancing around it and trying to sound all philosophical.

Ron Tisdale
09-04-2007, 12:04 PM
I think you are mis-interpreting the posts Don...be that as it may, I suspect you and Graham have more in common in your training methods than you think...

Best,
Ron (butting out now...) ;)

wildaikido
09-04-2007, 12:29 PM
I think you are mis-interpreting the posts Don...be that as it may, I suspect you and Graham have more in common in your training methods than you think...

Best,
Ron (butting out now...) ;)

I am glad someone can see it!

But I will add that we obviously have different philosophies.

philippe willaume
09-04-2007, 12:43 PM
I think you are mis-interpreting the posts Don...be that as it may, I suspect you and Graham have more in common in your training methods than you think...

Best,
Ron (butting out now...) ;)
Hello
yes I believe that also, don you are focusing on the technical level and graham is talking at a more conceptual level.

Whether your aim is to defend against guard by fighting it whilst in it or fighting your opponent so it does not happen, you both need to train against someone taking guard to make it efficient.
Awareness passes by recognising and differentiating circumstance end the environment
For example, if you practice a weapon you awareness will extend to the threat range of that weapon.
That will just tell you that someone has entered your safe space making it unsafe. That does not mean that you will recognise that he is going to try to the guard on you or is going to shoot you. I think that is what don is saying.

However the more you train the more generic solution you find. So the more that generic awareness can be turned into something useful.

If you want a written example of that take medieval German fencing you have only 5 strike that you use in defence and in offence, it takes cares of all the attacks possible from you opponent.
Ultimately all attacks with a long sword will have 5 possible trajectories and 5 possible great finishing or starting position.
When someone comes at you with a new guard that you have never seen, you can deal wit it as if it is one on of the four positions.
I have spared with people doing Olympic fencing, kendo arni/kali ghatka, xy z school of kenjutsu.
The medieval German simple rules never let me down and not following it got me spanked. I did not need to know exactly what guard they were using or the intricacies of each of their attack.

I think that is graham is referring to.

wildaikido
09-04-2007, 12:57 PM
Hello
yes I believe that also, don you are focusing on the technical level and graham is talking to at the tactical/strategically level.

No I am still saying that your train however you want, I train from escaping the guard, passing the guard, what ever is required in that ground situation.

I am being literal and philosophical. Mochizuki Kancho taught us through the teachings of Kano and O'Sensei that developing the inner self is as important, if not more so, then developing the physical self. We don't do this siting around mediating or dancing in Aikido, we do consistent hard mindful training that is physical. People can use what ever techniques they want. Ron is correct that technically Don and I may do similar training.

But you are correct,

However the more you train the more generic solution you find. So the more that generic awareness can be turned into something useful.

I think that is graham is referring to.

I am referring to the fact that if you develop a greater awareness then the person you need to defend yourself against you will have no problem applying what you have to the situation. Even if that means you leave before things go wrong, or run when they do :D

Regards,

DonMagee
09-04-2007, 01:51 PM
Ok, I'm talking about developing the ability to punch someone in the face when they are trying to hurt you. You can be aware of the fist all you want, but without the proper techniques to defend the against it and hit back with your own, you are going to make grave mistakes.

So you were talking about punching a attacker to take them out. I was asking what training methods explicitly do you employ to develop this skill.

This adds to the discussion, talking about being aware the person is going to hit you is obvious. But it doesn't solve the problem at hand. This is why it is evasive. I'm not doubting your training, I'm trying to understand what you do and how it applies to your position.

If someone asked me to explain how I drill to pass the guard, which would be a better answer to help them understand what I do.

"I examine the world around me, breathing in the universe I move with mindfulness, carefully aware of my surroundings causing a purposeful guard pass and brining unity to the world."

or

"First, I secure a strong base and posture. I do this by looking upwards, lowering my hips and widening my base by increasing the distance between my knees. Next I use my arms to control his hips by grasping his pants near the hips and keeping my elbows tight to the insides of his legs. Now I am careful to examine his position and posture waiting for a motion that will allow the pass. At some point he will grab a hand and I will have anticipated this and I will trap this hand. Now I will stand on that side and leaning my weight over his trapped side stand with the other leg. I will be carefully aware of his hips and pull on his arm and use my knees to trap his hips from dropping. Now I will take my free arm and press firmly on his leg to open the guard, I will follow down and drive my leg over his now open leg carefully keeping it pinned between my knee and foot. I will also keep my other foot firmly on the ground with the knee pointed up to control his other side. Now I will wait and anticipate the escape. At this point I will use a whole body movement to throw my leg around while keeping his leg pinned with my other leg. Finally after securing side control I will remove the pinned leg. You can practice this with a few static reps, followed by increasing resistance, followed by sparing sessions where passing the guard is your only goal, your opponent wants to sweep or submit you. During the static rep portion, it is important to break each moment down into its core parts, then increase fluidity as resistance increases. Sparing should be done in 1 minute intervals with switching between rounds. 1 round on top, one round on bottom, one round out to rest."

I know which one tells me more about how the person trains, and which is vague.

wildaikido
09-04-2007, 02:30 PM
As for techniques, according to the source (O'Sensei), "In combat Aikido is 90% atemi." So at the moment of contact a properly placed atemi should be sufficient. This may sound naive, but I am not talking about just trying to hit the person, remember I said you must have mindful consistent hard training to develop awareness. With superior awareness, you can defeat any opponent. A solid strike to the side of the chin is the proven way to knock someone out with atemi.

I think what you are asking is stated in this, you train atemi, you use atemi. What is difficult to understand about that?

Alternatively you could do what we do in Yoseikan, and train in grappling. Personal, I like the fact that O'Sensei didn't have to do this, so this is what I want to achieve.

Like I said, I will go to the ground with the grappler, because I can hit him, but my awareness is not good enough to make sure I hit the "button" first time every time. I do believe that with consistent hard mindful training that you can develop the awareness required to do this.

Regards,

Aristeia
09-04-2007, 02:38 PM
I think what you are asking is stated in this, you train atemi, you use atemi. What is difficult to understand about that?

,Nothing - I understand it perfectly. By which I mean it is clear to me, and I expect to Don, from the continuing vagueness of your answer that you don't train strikes in any kind of functional way. I may be wrong but that is the only conclusion I can draw from your comments so far.

DonMagee
09-04-2007, 03:04 PM
I think what you are asking is stated in this, you train atemi, you use atemi. What is difficult to understand about that?


Nothing at all, but my questions is so simple a child can answer it. What are you doing to train atemi?

Lets try this out.

I'm a white belt, I ask you what I should do to practice my atemi. Are you going to tell me to practice awareness? What are you going to tell me?

If you tell me practice my awareness, I am going to then ask, what can I do to practice my awareness to improve my atemi?

Then you are sticking with the "it doesn't matter what you do, as long as you are mindful." I then submit that you are wasting your time training aikido. You already know you just need to be mindful, so why not use your time somewhere better spent? You are not learning anything that can't be learned working a spare job for cash, helping be a big brother or sister for kids in trouble communities, etc. You can do all that mindfully and be just as competent in self defense.

At this point you have basically told the white belt no useful information, he is not going to get better, be discouraged and quit. In the context of this conversation, you are not adding anything and are in no way allowing anyone to learn from or analyze your methods and comment.

The core question is, what methods and drills are you doing while you are mindful which improves your direct ability to punch a person in the face when he is trying to hurt you? Without an answer, I can only assume nothing. Which leads me to assume you are making an uniformed statement based on the stories of a long dead man.


Like I said, I will go to the ground with the grappler, because I can hit him, but my awareness is not good enough to make sure I hit the "button" first time every time. I do believe that with consistent hard mindful training that you can develop the awareness required to do this.

Regards,

Again, what kind of consistent mindful training? Are you really saying playing chess, painting, walking the dog, jumping jacks, will improve your chances at hitting the button?

However, you have posed a new question with this. How long do you expect it to take to reach this level? Is this time well spent if your goal is being able to defend against a grappler? Are more direct methods of defense against a grappler (such as bjj, judo, etc) not going to foster the same awareness? If the answer is no, then what do you think is missing from their training? What would you add to improve their training, or is it hopeless and can only be done in an aikido practice? Which leads back to the first question, what are you doing when you train?

wildaikido
09-05-2007, 02:44 AM
Nothing at all, but my questions is so simple a child can answer it. What are you doing to train atemi?

Lets try this out.

I'm a white belt, I ask you what I should do to practice my atemi. Are you going to tell me to practice awareness? What are you going to tell me?

If you are a white belt training in Yoseikan, the first technique you are going to learn is escaping from a gyaku hanmi katate dori, or jun katate dori as we call it in Yoseikan. From here, we escape and strike. We have a small number of kata to practice striking, we have kihon to practice striking, lots of different exercises that at lower level that develop precision. At high grades we grab bags and pads then we start striking targets with power and speed. But my point is this is nothing new, most people train in strikes this way.

If you tell me practice my awareness, I am going to then ask, what can I do to practice my awareness to improve my atemi?

I am always going to say be aware, when someone gets injured, I am going to tell the defender that he needs to be more aware when training. When two uke fall into each other, I am going to say be more aware. Awareness, in my opinion, and in Mochizuki Kancho’s, is the key to budo.

Then you are sticking with the "it doesn't matter what you do, as long as you are mindful." I then submit that you are wasting your time training aikido. You already know you just need to be mindful, so why not use your time somewhere better spent? You are not learning anything that can't be learned working a spare job for cash, helping be a big brother or sister for kids in trouble communities, etc. You can do all that mindfully and be just as competent in self defense.

The awareness you develop on a crowded mat is one of the most useful things you can apply to real life. Look at driving your car and sitting in traffic, some people (including me) get annoyed by selfish drivers who only care about themselves, and them get were they need to go, even at the expense of others. No one trains like this on the mats in Aikido, you may have to be patient and wait your turn, and be courteous to the others on the mat. Imagine if everyone did Aikido and learnt these values and then applied them to something like driving, how wonderful the world would be! Aikido is not just about self defence! Open your mind!

At this point you have basically told the white belt no useful information, he is not going to get better, be discouraged and quit. In the context of this conversation, you are not adding anything and are in no way allowing anyone to learn from or analyze your methods and comment.

The core question is, what methods and drills are you doing while you are mindful which improves your direct ability to punch a person in the face when he is trying to hurt you? Without an answer, I can only assume nothing. Which leads me to assume you are making an uniformed statement based on the stories of a long dead man.

Your disrespect of men like Mochizuki and Ueshiba leads me to ask, why are you studying Aikido, and if you aren’t, why are you on an Aikido board?

Again, what kind of consistent mindful training? Are you really saying playing chess, painting, walking the dog, jumping jacks, will improve your chances at hitting the button?

No, but all of these things will help you avoid the situation in the first place. Then why does a dog walker or chess player need to know how to knock someone out, if they no not to get caught in unfavourable situations, or what streets not to walk?

However, you have posed a new question with this. How long do you expect it to take to reach this level?

All I can say for sure is that after 9 years, I could lay out an 8 year old, or a granny, or the punk who was high on drugs that I defended myself against, with a punch to the chin. In all of these situations I would not need to do this, in the last one I didn’t!

To do the same to a MMA who competes, I have no idea how much training I will need! I suspect more than him. But right now, I will go to the ground with him. But still probably lose, I am not deluded. I would like to never have to fight on the ground, and maybe one day I will be able to do the fabled techniques. But most importantly I never plan to be in a situation were I need to defend my self against a MMA, eg the octagon!

Is this time well spent if your goal is being able to defend against a grappler?

My goal is self defence against the most likely attacker, I don’t think someone sniffing drugs is going to be training in BJJ. So, YES. He may pull me down to the ground and try stuff because watching the UFC he has got the bright idea that “ground fighting is the best.”

[QUOTE=Don Magee;188653]Are more direct methods of defense against a grappler (such as bjj, judo, etc) not going to foster the same awareness?

How many times do I need to tell you I train to fight on the ground! Yoseikan Aikido includes the ground fighting from judo. My personal experience of cleaning up a black belt in judo here I Australia, every time on the floor, and then having my arse handed to me by a purple belt Yoseikan Aikidoka in the US, tells me that the ground fighting we do is good.

I think the point here is that you can be that good, to achieve it takes your life time, then you probably won’t ever need or want to use it.

Regards,

Erik Calderon
09-05-2007, 02:45 AM
Ushiro Ukemi.

darin
09-05-2007, 03:25 AM
Just out of curiosity does the Jan de Jong/Hans de jong aikido schools give out certificates in "Yoseikan Aikido"? I am pretty sure the only Yoseikan school recognized by the Mochizuki family in Perth is Roy Hebdens Yoseikan Budo Dojo.

wildaikido
09-05-2007, 03:55 AM
Just out of curiosity does the Jan de Jong/Hans de jong aikido schools give out certificates in "Yoseikan Aikido"? I am pretty sure the only Yoseikan school recognized by the Mochizuki family in Perth is Roy Hebdens Yoseikan Budo Dojo.

I can not comment on the activities of "Jan de Jong Martial Arts Fitness" and I think it best that I don't. I will say my 6th, 5th, and 4th kyu grades and certificates were signed by Jan.

As for me, under Sensei Hans, he got his shodan from Yoshi, and he got his 6th dan from Mochizuki Kancho. My 3rd and 2nd kyu certificates are from Hans. I will never get a shodan from Hans, I don’t think he would ever offer one, and I would never ask for one.

The term Yoseikan does not only belong to the current Mochizuki family. Also, this fact does not stop our Aikido being Yoseikan Aikido. Lets just say I am not going to be doing a Gary Bennett and appointing myself a 10th dan, EVER!

Regards,

DonMagee
09-05-2007, 06:55 AM
If you are a white belt training in Yoseikan, the first technique you are going to learn is escaping from a gyaku hanmi katate dori, or jun katate dori as we call it in Yoseikan. From here, we escape and strike. We have a small number of kata to practice striking, we have kihon to practice striking, lots of different exercises that at lower level that develop precision. At high grades we grab bags and pads then we start striking targets with power and speed. But my point is this is nothing new, most people train in strikes this way.



Thank you for answering my question. Do you also spar with strikes?


I am always going to say be aware, when someone gets injured, I am going to tell the defender that he needs to be more aware when training. When two uke fall into each other, I am going to say be more aware. Awareness, in my opinion, and in Mochizuki Kancho's, is the key to budo.

The awareness you develop on a crowded mat is one of the most useful things you can apply to real life. Look at driving your car and sitting in traffic, some people (including me) get annoyed by selfish drivers who only care about themselves, and them get were they need to go, even at the expense of others. No one trains like this on the mats in Aikido, you may have to be patient and wait your turn, and be courteous to the others on the mat. Imagine if everyone did Aikido and learnt these values and then applied them to something like driving, how wonderful the world would be! Aikido is not just about self defence! Open your mind!

Your disrespect of men like Mochizuki and Ueshiba leads me to ask, why are you studying Aikido, and if you aren't, why are you on an Aikido board?


Questioning is not disrespectful. Maybe it is to Japanese, but luckily, I'm not Japanese. I will never stop challenging things I do not understand. It is the best method of learning I have found. It is the scientific method. I train in aikido as a hobby. I find it fun and interesting. It is not a serious pursuit of mine. Grappling and ring fighting are serious pursuits of mine. I post here because I find the conversation interesting. Except for when people get sticks up their butts and start saying that questioning someones ideas, especially someone no longer alive, is disrespectful. In fact, that, I feel is disrespectful to me. I have only posed questions on the usefulness of the material you presented to my questions. I have not said Ueshiba was wrong. In fact I have always stuck to the core that I don't care what spiritual stuff you study, it is the method of practice (what you are doing with your body) that builds martial technique.


No, but all of these things will help you avoid the situation in the first place. Then why does a dog walker or chess player need to know how to knock someone out, if they no not to get caught in unfavourable situations, or what streets not to walk?


But this has nothing to do with neutralizing a bjj attacker. This is obvious self defense stuff. I don't need self defense. Why? Because I don't have out in bad areas. My parents taught me this. I didn't need martial arts to teach me morals, ideals, or awareness.


All I can say for sure is that after 9 years, I could lay out an 8 year old, or a granny, or the punk who was high on drugs that I defended myself against, with a punch to the chin. In all of these situations I would not need to do this, in the last one I didn't!

To do the same to a MMA who competes, I have no idea how much training I will need! I suspect more than him. But right now, I will go to the ground with him. But still probably lose, I am not deluded. I would like to never have to fight on the ground, and maybe one day I will be able to do the fabled techniques. But most importantly I never plan to be in a situation were I need to defend my self against a MMA, eg the octagon!


So the method of practice is inefficient? It is good that you are honest. There is nothing wrong with inefficient training providing you know it is such. Have you taken the time to examine what makes the training inefficient? Is it a lack of training time? Poor training methods? Lack of sparing? A lack of fitness? Perhaps it is simply not designed to build martial skill.

My point with this is that a bjj guy's training is very efficient for what he is trying to do. In very short periods of time, they become extremely competent on the ground. This is a testament of their method of training, and why strategy that deal with them typically need to be based around something other then allowing them to clinch. Judo, boxing, MT, some forms of karate, wrestling, and MMA also have similar methods of training with similar results.

After 9 years of any one of those arts you would be a very dangerous person to deal with. In fact I would not have a likely have a chance. Yet you are telling me that against a trained fighter, you have no idea your level of skill, what you can do, or if you are even ready to try to deal with them. I see this as a flaw in awareness, you obviously are not aware of your own physical abilities. You said you would likely need more training then them. At 9 years you have more training then any blue belt or purple belt in bjj, almost double in fact. At 9 years a Mauy Thai striker would probably kill a blue belt before he could close the distance, a judo guy would toss him around like a rag doll in the clinch, an MMA fighter would normally be way better in all ranges then that bjj blue belt.


My goal is self defence against the most likely attacker, I don't think someone sniffing drugs is going to be training in BJJ. So, YES. He may pull me down to the ground and try stuff because watching the UFC he has got the bright idea that "ground fighting is the best."


That is great that you know what you are training for. I personally don't agree with the lowest common denominator training. I find the attitude flawed. Training for the most skilled of fighters covers unskilled fighters, but the inverse is not true. I have no reason to continue bjj if I was following your training method. At blue belt, I have not found an untrained person who has come into the gym that I can not control and submit without effort. Even when they are twice my size. But I still keep training. Because I've seen the difference when that big guy comes in with a few years of high school wrestling, and his size, positional awareness and mild skill, and strength are enough to make me useless. And as I keep training to deal with more skilled opponents in any area, the unskilled ones become even easier.

Plus this thread is about neutralizing a bjj attacker. Basically you are saying you are not training to have the skills to do so. This makes the point mute.


How many times do I need to tell you I train to fight on the ground! Yoseikan Aikido includes the ground fighting from judo. My personal experience of cleaning up a black belt in judo here I Australia, every time on the floor, and then having my arse handed to me by a purple belt Yoseikan Aikidoka in the US, tells me that the ground fighting we do is good.

I think the point here is that you can be that good, to achieve it takes your life time, then you probably won't ever need or want to use it.

Regards,

I did not say you did not know how to fight on the ground. That is also not what I asked. What I asked was, "Are more direct methods of defense against a grappler (such as bjj, judo, etc) not going to foster the same awareness?"

I'll refine this a little to make my question clearer.

As I have stated, based only on the descriptions and self admissions you have made on your training, that it is inefficient and building martial skill. So my question is:

Do you feel that sport based training such as boxing, Mauy Thai, bjj, judo, etc not going to build awareness? This seems to be the key component in your self defense strategy. I would think that bjj, boxing, etc would all build situational awareness that would give the exact same benefits. If you do not feel this is true, I would like to know what you are doing in your training that builds awareness faster or better then sport based martial arts. Further more, what are they not doing that leads to this lack of awareness?

wildaikido
09-05-2007, 08:01 AM
Okay, my lack of wanting to say I can handle a trained BJJ is only from a lack of ego. I did say I easily handled a black belt in judo, and I will add that I also handled the brown belt that was in the same class, who was training for the sole purpose of competing. My ne waza randori against him resulted in me doing things that were not allowed in judo (to his feet and hands) hence we had to break and start again.

My awareness of BJJ techniques and training does enable me to gage my ability against them. If I say, “I don't know,” someone like you says "you don't know about your training and awareness, hence you training is useless". If I say, “yes,” someone, maybe you, will say, "you are delusional and your Aikido would neve work against someone who does BJJ." Hence the reason I gave you a situation where it would definitely work (8 year old, old person, druggy), and one were I know it won't at my level (a trained octagon fighter). What’s in the middle is for me to worry about, and if and when it happens, I will let you know how I go.

I have learnt that questioning things that great people tell you is important. But ultimately if they are indeed great, they are probably right. I mean how many time do parents tell their kids "drugs are bad." Then the kids go do drugs and have fun, then later they think, "those days I was doing drugs really didn't help me, I guess drugs are bad." However, blindly following fools is much worse then questioning great people.

With the BJJ thing I said if you want to beat a BJJer, train to knock him out fast. Then I said I train to fight him on the floor. But this does not make completely avoiding the attack any less important.

I expect to use my art against the lowest common denominator, as that is what I should expect. But the fact is I train with people at my level who completely resist, so I am practicing to do Aikido to them! Through Yoseikan they are trained in karate judo and aikido. They are not the lowest common denominator.

I never admitted that my training was in effective, you have interpreted my comments to suit yourself. I know what I can do, and most importantly I know I don't what to have to use it. Because I pity the fool who ties to hurt my family, because then I will know what I can really do. "In Aikido we learn to kill, but chose not to," Chiba Shihan (or was it Abbe?)

The mentality developed in pure sports training has the potential to easily become mindless. Hence awareness will not be developed. Instead, mindless reactions will be developed. This is why some people fall for the feints of a smart fighter. This is what I have observed in my sword sparring, which is full contact with padded shinai.

BTW, challenging the findings of those who came before us is not the scientific method.

Regards,

DonMagee
09-05-2007, 08:39 AM
First the scientific method.

1. Define the question
2. Gather information and resources
3. Form hypothesis
4. Perform experiment and collect data
5. Analyze data
6. Interpret data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypotheses
7. Publish results

Finally, each element of a scientific method is subject to peer review for possible mistakes.

This is exactly what I am doing. Only in the case of martial arts, we have theoretically starting in the peer review stage. In order to have meaningful conversation we need honesty, and we need to understand the view points, reasoning, ideals, and backgrounds of the people we are talking too. From that I can define a question, and gather information and resources, and form a hypothesis.

I then go spar, and use other training methods to gather data. I analyze that data, and repeat the steps as needed. Finally I do not publish results, but I do share what I have learned to others in conversation.

This is exactly what I am attempting to do here, and is indeed the scientific method.

I have attempted to make no assumptions without first asking for data and clarification. When such data was not supplied, I make logical assumptions.

For example, you claim I would tell you that you can't not handle a bjj attacker. This is not true. In fact I would ask the exact same questions I have asked. What strategies do you think are reasonable and effective to deal with a bjj attacker? What training methods do you employ to develop the skills you require to effectively implement this strategy.

So far, with my search in your style, it sounds like you spar and train in an alive manner. In which case I have no evidence in which to doubt the ability to gain skill and defeat a bjj attacker. Obviously the level of bjj comes into question. But assuming that most bjj practitioners are between white and purple belt with the majority at blue belt, that means a bjj practitioner with 1-3 years training. It would be a logical assumption that anyone training in an alive manner for 9 years in a grappling art should be able to defeat this kind of attacker.

Personally I am not a fan of humility. It adds nothing to the conversation. This is not to say arrogance is useful, it is not. But honest discussion of skill is very useful for having a conversation where neither of us can work with the other to learn our skill levels. Also, the taping a judo black belt thing did not convey a level of skill. Because at least here, a judo black belt is not all that great on the ground. They seem to range between high white belt and high blue belt in bjj. I am a blue belt in bjj and a brown belt in judo and I have rarely met a judo black belt who is more skilled then I on the ground. And in my bjj club I'm not even close to the best blue belt in the club.

I agree sport mentality can be mindless, but it seems that anyone successful at combat sports is anything but mindless. The washouts who stay low level are the ones who become reactionary and mindless. Yet I still see people have more success in sport based martial arts, then in non-sport based arts. I've seen very few people train for a year in bjj and not get any quantifiable skill. They either wash out because they are not mindful and attentive, or they grow spiritually and physically. However, I have a friend who did some japaneese kata based jujitsu for a year. When we spared he was clumsy and basically could not do any of the techniques he had shared and demonstrated to me. The majority of which were basic judo. I think he would of been much better served by a year of judo.