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Adam Alexander
03-08-2007, 08:07 PM
I think Ueshiba did it. Shioda and other early students did it.

I know it's not right, but I've done it. Have you done it or do you have any personal experience with aikidoka doing it?

I know, I know. Some of you prove it everyday when you're nice to people and all that. No harm, no foul. I applaud you and I'm getting there myself. But I'm wondering if people who went into Aikido as a MA have found themselves in or have put themselves into situations to use their Aikido?

What about the famed situation where a visitor attacks a teacher and is so impressed they're now a student forever?

xuzen
03-08-2007, 09:03 PM
I think Ueshiba did it. Shioda and other early students did it.

I know it's not right, but I've done it. Have you done it or do you have any personal experience with aikidoka doing it?

I know, I know. Some of you prove it everyday when you're nice to people and all that. No harm, no foul. I applaud you and I'm getting there myself. But I'm wondering if people who went into Aikido as a MA have found themselves in or have put themselves into situations to use their Aikido?

What about the famed situation where a visitor attacks a teacher and is so impressed they're now a student forever?

1) I proof it when I when I got top marks at my University Entrance Exam.
2) I proof it when I got 1st Class Honours in my chosen undergraduate degree.
3) I proof it when I got my Post Graduate degree.
4) I proof it when my boss made me in-charge of his employees.
5) I proof it when a woman I loved trust me so much she is willing to do the death till us part thingy.
6) I proof it when I was able to make genetic copies of me by fusing my DNA with those of the said person.

Err.... what sort of proving are we talking again?

Boon.

Evgeny Loktyukhov
03-08-2007, 09:05 PM
Well, I somewhat proved it just a few days ago. I went to a 24 hours shop like at 3 a.m. Also I was stupid enough to take my mp3 player with me, which deprived me of the sounds of the outer world and made me an ideal victim to be attacked from the back.
I was walking peacefully with some cheerful Latin American song in my headphones when I suddenly turned 180 degrees. I don't know why I did it but I did it in time to face a 6'5" man rushing in my direction. He was only three steps from me then. Actually he changed his direction immediately and ran away. I think that I got this sensitivity because of aikido practice. May be it saved my life.

Edward
03-08-2007, 09:50 PM
It used to work because it was mainly unknown. I don't think it would work now with professional fighters who understand aikido principles and can easily counter them.

Adam Alexander
03-08-2007, 09:56 PM
1) I proof it when...Boon.

There weren't any other threads to respond to?

BTW: I mean proving it in non-hoky ways. Maybe Aikido makes some people psychic or magic, but it hasn't happened to me. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that stuff. I just haven't felt it, nor have I ever been interested in it.

I mean have you had to defend yourself physically or were you a big enough dip-sh*t like myself to look for it?

Adam Alexander
03-08-2007, 09:59 PM
It used to work because it was mainly unknown. I don't think it would work now with professional fighters who understand aikido principles and can easily counter them.

Cool. Can you expound on some other irrelevant topics? No, really? Please?

Either you have or haven't. If you haven't and don't know anyone, then post elsewhere...Please;) If you've got the goods, then share.

MikeLogan
03-08-2007, 10:22 PM
Nope, haven't. A small, stupid part of me wants the need to prove myself. The bigger, and frankly not much smarter part of me is glad that the odds are against it, and that I've developed a healthy aversion to putting myself in stupid situations.

Of course someone will quote me on that the very next time I screw up shihonage.

If you set out to prove it, Jean, then you're correct, it's not right. Otherwise one must say you proved it,
...,
in that instance.

michael.

Budd
03-09-2007, 08:11 AM
RonJon, since you seem to have certain criteria for how people are supposed to respond to your thread, why don't you provide your own examples of what you are looking for? That might clarify it better for others . . . FWIW

Adam Alexander
03-09-2007, 08:18 AM
RonJon, since you seem to have certain criteria for how people are supposed to respond to your thread, why don't you provide your own examples of what you are looking for? That might clarify it better for others . . . FWIW

I've visited dojos to test my skills but in a totally friendly way. (I didn't go in kicking anyone in the shins, throwing down a glove and stating "I challenge you.") I've just sparred.

I've been in a handful of minor fights.

The only criterion that I'm asking to be met is that it's actually an answer to the question posted. There are no rules that require anyone to answer on topic, but it'd sure be nice.

Erik Calderon
03-09-2007, 08:20 AM
When I throw a beginner, one who has never studied how to fall or take ukemi, and they fall as if they have studied ukemi for years.....it makes me feel as if I have proved my Aikido.

Erik Calderon
aikido shinkikan
www.shinkikan.com

Budd
03-09-2007, 09:05 AM
It's been a long time since I've been in anything resembling a brawl or street fight. I try not to put myself in positions where such a thing is likely to occur.

I used to work as a bouncer in college and then as a counselor for teenagers with behavioral problems in my twenties. Both situations afforded me (more than I wanted) opportunities to get hands-on experience, from being outnumbered and trying to keep my head/feet to attempting restraints while teaming with others.

These days, if I want to do some benchmarking, I'll visit other schools and just train with them. I find I'm in a position to learn more if I just go in with a friendly attitude, an "empty cup" and do my best to participate with what they're doing. I smile, keep myself safe and respect that I'm in someone else's house.

If it's another aikido school, there are typically formal conventions to follow. If it's a gym or more sport oriented art/school, then it's usually less mannered, but will then give me a chance to play in a different sandbox with another set of toys. Plenty of times I get schooled, but that's part of the learning process! I figure in order to improve, you can't be afriad to fail . . .

Then, there's a small group of people I trust and I'll get together and just "bang" with them using different rulesets (sometimes just striking, sometimes just grappling, sometimes both). It's important that I trust these guys because we're not looking to boost our egos by "winning", but by honestly testing ourselves within different paradigms.

I guess I have a hard time reconciling the above with "proving" something to myself as I've kind of integrated the benchmarking approaches within my overall training approach. I think it's also important to recognize that different people train for different reasons, which kind of nullifies some attempts at saying that one way to train is necessarily "better" or "worse" than others (as long one's being honest in the approach).

YMMV

gregstec
03-09-2007, 12:28 PM
I echo what Budd said about proving yourself - you can train around with different types of folks to get a feel of where your technique is, et. however, this is still in a somewhat controlled environment with baseline rules of engagement.

Things on the other side of the coin are very different. Being that I am retired military and have spent time in somewhat less than friendly environments (I not talking about combat zones, just some rough places that military guys find themselves in on occasion) I have been in a few real life hostile, and/or, combative situations after I started training in Aikido. Most hostile situations can be avoided by employing 'aiki' principles that focus on harmonizing and avoiding direct confrontations - it is amazing how often 'hostiles' will respond favorably to a redirection. I believe most people really do want to try and avoid confrontation, and when given a 'face saving' out, will take it.

However, there are those that are determined to take it to the physical. In those situations, your defense is only reflexive and there is no time to mentally prepare yourself to apply a learned technique - you react to a force and respond accordingly without thinking based on the conditioning from your training. I think Osensei called this Takemusu. I have been in a couple situations like this, and that is how it works - things just happen. If you have trained enough, you will subconsciously react to the threat and physically perform with what you have trained to do in similar situations. It works just like that; and those of you who have been there, know exactly what I am talking about.

Regards

Greg

James Davis
03-09-2007, 03:34 PM
I'm a little guy (5'6"), so I've had to prove myself a few times to some pretty large guys when they first start classes with me. So far, they've been pretty reasonable about dispensing with the rough stuff and trying to learn to be soft (after I "prove" that softness works). A couple have stated flatly that they were impressed most with the fact that I didn't injure them. Quite often, when I've shown them technique, they'll exclaim, "Wow! That stuff really works!" While I'm thinking to myself, Thank God that worked!:D

Some students stay, some I never see again.:( Some people seem to get the hang of things in pretty short order. It can be pretty sad to see somebody walk away from something that they could have been really good at.:(

Adam Alexander
03-09-2007, 10:35 PM
Thanks guys! Those are answers to the question I was trying to ask.

Something I think is cool is the statement on reflex/subconcious reaction. Of my few encounters, my moves, although nobody would call them good techniques, were reflex. I've always considered that the bar for me: without any warning I've been pushed, struck at and charged, I've responded in a way that was within the "range" of Aikido.

Those occassions were like windows into the techniques. I could see the potential.

On sparring with people from other dojos. I love that if you can find others who are far enough along and don't get too personal about it. I found holes in what I was doing. I got a real chance to really see holes in others...Which sort of means that I got a chance to see how really aware I was of others...If that makes sense.

What I also love about that is that you can really try a lot of stuff. I'm by no means a proponent of sparring for Aikido, but I had a riot doing it.

Thanks guys. It's nice to hear that I'm not the only one in this generation who's experienced it.

Kevin Leavitt
03-09-2007, 11:14 PM
Yes Ron I have done it, and infact did it this week again!

When I arrived at my current assignment in Germany with the Army, the Modern Army Combatives Program (MACP) had finally made it over here in my battalion.

I was excited and elated to see that there was finally some people that were training in martial arts in the military. Everyday I would look out my window and see guys grappling and wrestling on the ground.

Scoffing at it from the whole "aikido/randori/multiple opponent" paradigm, I really wanted to get involved and show them how good I was at fighting or not fighitng as the case may be...that is handling myself with great martial skill....you know looking like Ueshiba dispatching young soldiers at will with off balancing, throwing them, kotegaeshi, nikkyo....all that.

Anyway, some officers knew I did aikido and were curious to learn...so I started working with them. One of the MACP instructors was training in the same room one morning...eventually we got together and discussed training etc.

So, over a month or two, we bantered back and forth, back and forth. He finally got me to work with him...nothing I would do would work on him.

I used the old, "well it works, but I'd have to do it for real and you are not responding in a realisitc way, so you are thwarting my technique"

So he obliged me to be as real as I wanted to be. We donned protective gear, set up some very basic rules and then we went at it. He crushed me.

Then, we sent a new guy to the MACP School house, never trained in Martial arts. 90 days of intense training...he comes back...he crushes me as well!

I was in utter shock! YEARS spent wasted.

So, I did some sole searching and figured I better do something different...so I trained with these guys for two years.

I am now at the point where I am putting back together my aikido training and can effectively demonstrate when and where it works. I have also found principles hidden where I did not have the skills necessary to recognize the principles.

I found that aikido is relevant and that it is NOT invalid, it is sound in principle...it is just a matter of how you apply those principles AND having the skill necessary to do so with many people, to include those that don't share your love for the typical training paradigm.

Just this week I had a Hung Gar guy come in and we worked together in various ranges and scenarios. He was totally non-compliant, and we had a great deal of fun.

We pushed, pulled, went to the ground, recovered, used weapons. Played with ranges of fighitng...and in the end we were able to share between each other those things that we both learned and found valuable in the various situations and perspectives that we brought to the table.

The next day, we began to work together on irimi, tenkan, closing distance, kokyu tanden ho, the clinch, guard, and other things in a controlled and relaxed way that allows for the teaching of principles.

Keep in mind, I am no aikido teacher as I have not been granted permission to teach aikido, nor do I advertise that I teach aikido. However, I don't see any distinction between the principles I was taught, and what I am working with in my training, which falls in line with MMA I suspose.

All the people I work out with, being soldiers, expect to challenge you. If you cannot demonstrate true knowledge through dominating and controlling them when they want to fight you...they will not train with you. So yes, every time I get a new student this happens.

It doesn't have to be some huge dojo stormng event. Either you can demonstrate your art you teach, or you can't. If you cannot control the situation and respond appropriately, then you have no business teaching what you are professing to have knowledge of.

You have to be honest with yourself, and those that you are advertising to, as there will always be the people that say, prove it.

I am also very, very honest that there is much I do not know. This helps as well.

Anyone that has ever walked through my door and has been able to beat me, or out skill me, I have become a student of theirs in that particular thing.

I have this greco-roman guy that comes in the door every now and then that can simply tear me to pieces on takedowns. I always get together with him after class and pick his brain apart and have him teach me takedowns.

For me, it is a two way street in learning. If you are open....you will have no issues in this area.

Adam Alexander
03-09-2007, 11:44 PM
Something I always find interesting about you Kevin, and I don't know if this is you or just my misperception, but I'm certain that everytime I post about Aikido and technical practicality you manage to sort of sh*t on it without it really stinking. Sort of like you sprayed some Lysol or something around it.

It could just be me...maybe. But as I reread it, I'm certain I was reading turd and then something fresh being sprayed.

It's funny. For me, after a while on forums, I stopped trying to convince everyone of the greatness of Aikido. Not because I lost the faith, but because I guess I realized that I don't really have the right. What's right for me might not be right for you and all that...and I learned a little something about shame, etc.

Maybe there's something telling in that. You've been here so much longer, yet you're still doing the same thing. I wonder if that's not a symptom of whatever held you back in Aikido.

Who knows?

Kevin Leavitt
03-10-2007, 04:24 AM
I am sorry you feel that way. I thought you were asking for real life stories of how people have applied and experienced aikido in their lives. This happens to be how I have experienced it, and how I have grown in my understanding of the principles in my everyday life.

My only thoughts were in sharing my thoughts and feelings and experiences as it relates.

I am sorry to have let you down.

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything or that my way is the only way. It is only my experiences.

I am not sure what you mean about doing the samething. You'd have to explain that one to me? I also not sure what you mean about whatever held me back in aikido.

I am on my own path, as everyone should be, I have my weaknesses, and obstacles as much as the next guy.

Again, it was not my intent to rain on your parade. Sorry you feel that way.

Kevin Leavitt
03-10-2007, 04:54 AM
Jean,

I went back and searched through your post to see where you and I might have a rub somewhere, frankly I could not remember having any negative feelings toward you in anyway, (still don't).

However, in reading the thread "exaagerations in aikido" post #50, back in July 2005, it would appear that you take issue with me and the military for some reason.

Again, seeing that you some how have a bad vibe with me, I will try to steer clear of your threads you start as it is apparent that you do not wish me to contribute or participate in them.

again I appologize.

Tony Wagstaffe
03-10-2007, 05:29 AM
Here we go...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sTG9Btdb3s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTt8YwPaPCY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOfdjWYfxhE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvWiYcxTm2A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbIyAF48zFM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2TJoq0lPHM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOTwg_YXYy0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvfyvQIJiGo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8dTS8xiG3c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS2DI0u_4ZE

Have fun!

Tony:freaky: :D

charyuop
03-10-2007, 07:19 AM
I don't worry anymore so much if Aikido works or not. Why? Coz I tried it...tried it on me!

True, I was not a MAist before starting Aikido, so you could say I was one of those people you can find in the streets and true Sensei is a Godan, so pretty loaded with skills and understanding of the Art's principles.
One of my first days he was talking to me about real fights. He started pushing me on my chest trying to show me how I have to be ready from the first instant. Last things I remember is him telling me "coz I am the bad guy..." rushed towards me and then all went blank. He trated me like a doll in the hands of a child. I lost completely knowledge of my position and his position, I was being pushed and pulled by every direction. Last thing I remember is I was lying down staring at the ceiling and I don't even know what the hell he did to me.

What is most amazing, and I hope one day I will be that way too, is when Sensei shows a technique. Like all human being there might be the times when his technique fails (it is not always easy to go to a certain technique, in a real fight you don't want to use a certain technique, but the most suitable for the occasion). What is really amazing is that even tho is technique won't come out, he is still in full controll of the opponent, thus changing to another technique to throw us comes out easy. This is something else that makes me believe Aikido was proven to me, if you have control of the situation 100% of the fight.

L. Camejo
03-10-2007, 07:48 AM
Something I think is cool is the statement on reflex/subconcious reaction. Of my few encounters, my moves, although nobody would call them good techniques, were reflex. I've always considered that the bar for me: without any warning I've been pushed, struck at and charged, I've responded in a way that was within the "range" of Aikido.

Those occassions were like windows into the techniques. I could see the potential.
Hi Jean,

The above is a great point and a major reason why I think many do not understand the direct physical practicality of applied Aikido principle or technique. As per your post above, revelation comes through situations where there is no pretense of cooperation or creation of a false sense of harmony (i.e. one where you must depend on your partner to not resist your movements and by extension have "effective" waza). In sparring from early on in ones Aikido training one learns ones own weaknesses, strengths and that of others and can train to improve on these areas from very early on. It is these people who tend to be able to apply things reflexively when it is required. Focus on kata alone does not build reflexive ability. Takemusu aiki is also impossible if one cannot allow the subconscious to operate and find the right movement for the situation.

Imho I think part of the reason why many in Aikido do not experience the revelations you referred to above is because many do not engage in some sort of constructive, graduated form of training (from no resistance to full resistance) that builds awareness, reflexes, subconscious reaction and automatic mind/body pathways while maintaining technical integrity.

Regarding my own experiences:

Real World: 8 on 1 ambush/mugging attempt. Kotegaeshi on lead attacker made him my shield against his buddies giving me time to improve my position, open my distance between them and regroup. They decided not to pursue the point after realizing that they had inflicted a good bit of injury on their main attacker (who by then also had a sprained wrist) in trying to get at me..

Sparring in other dojos: Have done well in using Aikido waza during Judo and Jujutsu randori for throws especially. In one case the Judoka ended up on his back on the floor looking up at the ceiling and not quite understanding how he got there.

I actually train in Jujutsu also now to cover combat ranges that are not in my Aikido syllabus (e.g. ground work and clinch range) but my first line of defence will always be coming from my Aikido training. It works because our method thankfully allows for a lot of sparring from early on so one learns a few things about dealing with a serious opponent/attacker as well as the mindset / body tactics required to keep oneself in control.

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

Adam Alexander
03-10-2007, 01:43 PM
Kevin,

Although I know that it just doesn't matter, you just shot up a notch on my respect-o-meter.

I could be wrong. I dont' doubt that. However, I believe there's a consistency in your posts (if not in threads I'm active, others) where it seems to me that you make an extra effort to say that Aikido hasn't worked for you and then repeat your training philosophy in the thread. However, since you don't say that you're tearing down Aikido (in some ways) in order to build a reason why others should train like you, I have found it not nice (?). Being that I spent so long on the other side (slipping in Aikido works for me stuff) I figured it is or was intentional.

Thanks for bringing up that thread (and there's a few others that bring up an equal amount of embarrassment for me). Yeah, I had something against everybody. I suppose age and experience changes that. I owe the bulk of the change to extraordinary leadership in Aikido. A little build up here, a little tear down there. (I trust you understand what I'm saying.) I still have an incredibly long way to go, but suffice to say, I recognize that the military is one of the things that allows me to have spent all that time bad mouthing it and everything else. (M.Hackett, if you're reading, my apologies.) I'm still a pretty arrogant a**hole. But, it comes with a bit of shame and/or respect(?).

Larry,

I like most current styles of Aikido staying away from sparring. What you learn in ten minutes of sparring will keep you busy for a year. I think the ego-gratification that is built into sparring (generally) is very slippery. Before a school knows it, rather than sparring being a tool that only needs to be used once in a great while, you end up putting an emphasis on it in the curriculum (sp?).

I think that would have the same effect as etiquette and chain of command in a dojo being de-emphasized. Behavior gets mushy real quick (atleast I acted like an a**hole in some situations because I was following the example of someone who had little respect for them).

I prefer to stick to the extreme. When someone thinks they're ready, they'll find a test.

On the subject of resisting ukes, when I've been out, I didn't encounter any "real life" resisting ukes.

Nice story!

statisticool
03-10-2007, 04:11 PM
I was in utter shock! YEARS spent wasted.


Not at all in my opinion.

The real test is in real life, not an Army training ground, or a gym or ring for that matter, where an unplanned and unvoidable attack comes at you, most likely from someone who does not spend time training in combatives.

Roman Kremianski
03-10-2007, 05:12 PM
I'd have to agree with Justin. The fights I have been in pre-Aikido were with people who could listing "fighting" as the last skill on their list.

From my experience, most people who start "shit" are usually the last people who actually know any combat martial arts. Of course there are exceptions in everything, but generally speaking a skilled jujitsu practitioner won't thug people for money.

And trust me on that one, I went to a sub-urban high school where everyone thought they were a gangsta'.

:o

p00kiethebear
03-10-2007, 07:02 PM
I used to coach open mat gymnastics every friday night.

We often had highschool wrestlers come in to practice.

Let's just say I never missed an opportunity to correct their poor technique = )

shidoin
03-11-2007, 08:38 PM
I have been challenged by one person, he was never taught in a dojo, he was just a street brawler, that could fight. one part of me really wanted to kick his A$$, but I did not and I feel much better.
but another time a friend of mine said show me aikido, I did kotegaeshi, and he resisted, he said it will only work if I let you! so I really didn't want to hurt him, but at that point I had to prove my skill, I lowered my center and did a Tenkan and down he went. on the carpet, lying there with a sore wrist. I told him you should never resist, because that's when people get hurt. Well he never asked again, and wants to train at my dojo, :ai: :ki: :do:

Kevin Leavitt
03-12-2007, 12:27 AM
Justin wrote:

Not at all in my opinion.

The real test is in real life, not an Army training ground, or a gym or ring for that matter, where an unplanned and unvoidable attack comes at you, most likely from someone who does not spend time training in combatives.

like a guy jumping out from behind a building with a big stick? Or Knife, or even with his empty hands.

You assume that my training conditions are against trained opponents, or that is what we would incur. The conditions are no different for soldiers than civilians...we face the same populace. Difference would be the level of preparedness or armament. So, yes I do see your point there.

However, we train for all kinds of situtationos. I at least OVERTRAIN. That is my skills to be successful with the general populace as best I can, were attained long ago.

Fact is, you cannot simply mitigate every situation the way you want it. Sometimes you may lose if the cards are stacked against you.

I've been mugged a few times in DC. Never once had an issue physically, gave him my money and said thank you and went on his way.

What exactly are you looking for??? Kato to jump out from behind a tree?

Kevin Leavitt
03-12-2007, 12:36 AM
Jean,

I'd never be so presumptious to even begin to say I can change aikido for everyone else. I can only change it for myself and make it mine.

I only throw out what I throw out there to help those that may be struggling in the same way I am. It was important to me to test myself with my skills learned through aikido. They did not hold up without some significant training in order to respond more appropriately to someone that does not want to play the same way.

I have learned how to work through two ranges, albeit it is not perfect, but I feel much more comfortable than I did a few years ago.

I believe it possilbe to train in these two ranges and improve, that is through the combining of two methdologies: aikido and BJJ.

However, I think they can also be taught with no changes to either system. That is, my opinion is that you can continue to train in aikido, in fact there is nothing wrong with it principally, I have found nothing wrong with the way it is commonly taught.

Those that choose to explore other things that aikido does not focus on can support or augment there training in other ways.

For me, it has been important to synthesize what I have learned. In the end, it may end up looking like aikido again...who knows. At least for now, I can manage myself in the chaos of non-compliance a little better, and move out into using proper principles and show how they apply a little.

That is all.

Appreciate your taking the time to understand a little more.

statisticool
03-12-2007, 04:17 PM
The conditions are no different for soldiers than civilians..


If you're on a battlefield or military base, for example, they most certainly are.