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Thalib
01-02-2007, 12:26 AM
_____________________________________________

The above quote is from Mike's thread concerning his recent Ki Society seminar. I think Mike is spot on with his thoughts concerning relaxation being the road to higher-level stuff. I was thinking this might be a good topic for discussion. I know it has been touched on many times in the past but with all of the new faces a new discussion might bear new fruit.

The question for the forum at large is how do you or your system teach/train an individual to become relaxed? Is there a specific method or is it simply a hope that over time the student will relax? What drills or exercises are explicitly used for the purpose of teaching relaxation and it's powers?

Take care,

Mark J.

I practiced with Ki Society for a number of years, and the method and theory is really good and I have incorporated that into my practice.

I am not part of the organization, our organization is affiliated with Aikikai, but a small number of our dojo members, including myself, practice with them for knowledge regarding shin-shin-toitsu (one mind and body).

It is regularly not an accepted practice for Aikikai members to practice with Ki-Society. Maybe it was due to the political rift way back when, or maybe Aikido practitioners from other organizations tend to 'test' and disrupt the whole learning process of the class.

You would really need to come to practice with a clean slate, not just in Ki society, but any other practice. One needs to discard all the prejudices that one has and take in the training with objectivity and an open mind.

The training method of Ki Society is good, but it does have its short-comings. If we are talking about balance, the practice would probably fall into the 'yin' of the 'magatama'. Too peaceful and relaxing, creation of conflict is not recommended. The drawback of this, if not properly guided, one could create conflict in another way and their mind become stiff and unyielding.

A number of Ki Society exercises involves the immovable posture (a.k.a 'Fudoushisei'). The common perception of this method is that nobody is unable to move you or unable to bend your arms or lift you up. All of this will be able to be done, but will need a lot of effort from the uke, while the nage use less effort and does not have to strain himself physically. If you have taken more than you can take, then you move in proportion with that force.

The good thing was, that our teacher teach our mind to be flexible. It is alright to move, it is alright to fall, as long as you are of one mind and body during the incident and do it within proportion. If you are worried about being stable and balanced at all times, then your mind becomes rigid because you are in competition with the one that is testing you.

I learned a lot from Ki Society and I owe a lot to the teacher and students that guided us through this. But he understands that we are from another organization and would not stay with them for long. Even that may be so, we have applied what we learned in our training and shared it with other students.

We don't separate what Ki Society is doing as another entity, but it is truly a part of Aikido and every practitioner should understand it. The method may differ slightly but as long as you could get the message across, that is good.

... to be continued

Kevin Leavitt
01-02-2007, 03:38 AM
Thanks for sharing that.

I think the art of aikido is probably very large. We are dealing with mind, body, and spirit right? I have no experience with KI society, but from what I have heard, and read, sounds like they put a great deal of emphasis in developing the mind/body/spirit connection over maybe some other things. Same art but a different weight on what they consider important in development and refinement.

I think it is good to have this diversity. Maybe one day I will have time to go and learn what they have to teach, I am sure I would benefit from the training.

One of my biggest fears is as I grow older, I will not be able to perform physically the way I do today. I know I have a different outlook at my midpoint than I did 20 years ago. I think in 20 years I will definitely be at a different place in my training!

Thanks

kironin
01-02-2007, 04:04 AM
A number of Ki Society exercises involves the immovable posture (a.k.a 'Fudoushisei'). The common perception of this method is that nobody is unable to move you or unable to bend your arms or lift you up. All of this will be able to be done, but will need a lot of effort from the uke, while the nage use less effort and does not have to strain himself physically. If you have taken more than you can take, then you move in proportion with that force.

The good thing was, that our teacher teach our mind to be flexible. It is alright to move, it is alright to fall, as long as you are of one mind and body during the incident and do it within proportion. If you are worried about being stable and balanced at all times, then your mind becomes rigid because you are in competition with the one that is testing you.



Ultimately immovable mind, Fudoshin, is more important in Ki Society. An immovable posture is a reflection of Fudoshin.
A calm aware mind is our desired goal in aikido when presented with potential conflict. both nage and uke

stan baker
01-02-2007, 06:12 AM
Hi Mike,
you asked me what i have done,i try to find people who can actually do what they are talking about not just on beginners.

stan

DH
01-02-2007, 09:45 AM
One of my biggest fears is as I grow older, I will not be able to perform physically the way I do today. I know I have a different outlook at my midpoint than I did 20 years ago. I think in 20 years I will definitely be at a different place in my training!
Thanks
Hi Kev
The good news is that with proper training that decline can start much later
At 50 I deliver more power than I did at 40.
Last year, I felt the power of a man at 70
Who told me -he- was more powerful then he was at 50.
Sagawa was tossing gold medal judoka in his 80'S
I've felt another Japanese teacher who at 64 was amazing and told me that by his estimation he stunk up the place at 50!!
Ueshiba improved with age as well
If it truly isn't muscle- then skills can indeed improve.
Depends on just -what- it is we are looking to improve.
The model I offered is when you talk about Body buidling as in power lifting-and how it can make you stronger everyone says of course.
Talk about body building-as in internally to build power they tell you your nuts or go... huh?

Don't give up the ghost just yet.....
I wonder whether it takes a change in view, as we get older, to actually "effect" the change in us in the first place. A different focus in order to even get off the highway and walk down that road.
Cheers
Dan

Thomas Campbell
01-02-2007, 10:58 AM
[snip]
PS. Centeredness is far more than a physical state. Often when a thread gets heated we can see who is centered and who is not.

Thanks for that, Mark.

Best to you and the other Systema folks in NC in 2007.

Mike Sigman
01-02-2007, 11:11 AM
PS. Centeredness is far more than a physical state. Often when a thread gets heated we can see who is centered and who is not.This is sort of like an invitation I got once to join a Taoist club. Do real Taoists join clubs? No. Do really "centered" people take oblique shots?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike Galante
01-02-2007, 12:31 PM
Ellis!

I read the article, thank you for confirming Usheibas deep spiritual nature.


1. As some may know, Ueshiba saw himself as imbued by the kami Susano-o, the "wind god," who was a combination of a trickster and Prometheus. Rather than cite a particular myth twice, I'll paraphrase/quote Fred here. "When Ueshiba was doing the upward and downward spirals in his jo form, that upward thrust is like a tornado spirally up into heaven, like Susano-o using his spear to stab the repository of all the rice, hoarded by Heaven, and then the downward expanding spiral as he spreads it over the world. I don't think he was emulating this - he was, at that moment, Susano-o."

2. I think there is no doubt that Ueshiba practiced a kind of voodun - spirit possession. In Shingon mikkyo, one meditates on the image of a Buddha/diety, one takes it into oneself, one places it outside oneself - all with the goal of controlling the mind that manages that experience and images AND to see through to the emptiness of even this kind of phenomena - that divinity, even the Buddha, is a product of mind. However, Ueshiba's later practice was Chinkon-kishin, which is, Shingon in reverse. One creates and BECOMES the deity. Note the story by Takahashi Mariye, describing Ueshiba calling up/dealing with an unruly diety. Some readers may roll their eyes, thinking this some sort of mountebank show. I don't agree. Ueshiba was profoundly religious. I do think that the spiritual practice he inherited from Deguchi, where one is, in a sense, taken possession by the god or becomes them (is "ridden" as is said in Haiti), lends itself to grandiosity.

Nakazono had eluded to Usheiba feeling he was the incarnation of
some diety or "saint". Is that what you were referring to in the quote above?

All the stuff about technique, in the end blurs into the vortex of his great soul powered by union of heaven and earth in a human being.
It doesn't matter if you have a bo or a dorje or a flower in your hand, a human being has the same " spiritual" anatomy and similar processes are needed to get "there". No foe can oppose it.
My humble opinion.

Thank you for your scholarship and insight,
Mike

Jim Sorrentino
01-02-2007, 02:35 PM
Hello Dan,Last, why did I change my mind about helping? Now that IS an interesting questionI'll take the bait, since nobody else has. ;) Why did you change your mind about helping?

Jim

Thalib
01-02-2007, 09:59 PM
Ultimately immovable mind, Fudoshin, is more important in Ki Society.

True... then again... to me.. fudoushin, "The unfettered mind"
must be true in all martial arts, it does not 'belong' to any organization or society.

An immovable posture is a reflection of Fudoshin.

Yes... as we are humans we learn from the outside in, from the physical to the mental to the spiritual.

It may be difficult to understand fudoushin first before fudoushisei. If not careful, one could get frustrated.

A calm aware mind is our desired goal in aikido when presented with potential conflict. both nage and uke

A calm and aware mind in any situation, conflict or no conflict is one of our desired goals in Aikido. To me this goal, serve a higher purpose, which I may not discuss in this particular thread

Thank you, Craig, for the feedback and happy training...

statisticool
01-02-2007, 09:59 PM
Do real Taoists join clubs? No.


Walter, how are you definining a "real Taoist"?

A better question is, does a real internal theorist muck up basic physics?, or Is it possible for someone who has minimal experiences in several martial arts to claim he has the basis for those martial arts, and chastise others who disagree?

Cady Goldfield
01-02-2007, 10:02 PM
Come on, now, Justin. Say what you need to say, but there is no reason to intentionally call someone by the wrong name. Please use the courtesy expected of all of us on these forums.

statisticool
01-23-2007, 10:48 AM
Come on, now, Justin. Say what you need to say, but there is no reason to intentionally call someone by the wrong name. Please use the courtesy expected of all of us on these forums.

What wrong name?

DonMagee
01-23-2007, 11:03 AM
I had a guy about 40 pounds bigger then me on top of me last night working me over. I had an impossible time trying to submit or control him. Finally, I realized I was stressing out, and I calmed myself and my breathing down. After relaxing I found it much easier to work with him.

I think these situations are the best way to learn to relax, get put in a stressful situation, and deal with it.

Cady Goldfield
01-23-2007, 01:29 PM
After watching "Borat," the thought of groundfighting with much bigger guys definitely makes me nauseous and not relaxed. :p But there is a lot to be said about breathing and releasing muscle tension when groundfighting with larger opponents. For one thing, you can feel and exploit potiential openings much better.

Ron Tisdale
01-23-2007, 01:45 PM
You know very well Mike does not go by the name Walter.

I've seen grade schoolers who would not bother with that level.

Best,
Ron

Kevin Leavitt
01-23-2007, 03:08 PM
Cady wrote:

For one thing, you can feel and exploit potiential openings much better

I am not so sure that you can feel or exploit them much better so much as it becomes more of a necessity that you must do this in order to turn the tables on them.



Wish me luck, I am competing in the European BJJ Championships in Lisbon this weekend in the Super, Super Heavy Weight. I am 225, and over the super heavy weight by about 5 lbs...so, hopefully I don't end up with a 325 lb giant. that is usually my luck! I hate this weight class! Guess I should lose the weight!

I always like the Royce/Akebono fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvTkdI4GL5I

Cady Goldfield
01-23-2007, 03:18 PM
Good luck, Kevin.
I'm glad I'm not the one having to compete against a 225+ opponent... But if I had to, I would try to be relaxed and to breathe so -- even if I couldn't find and exploit potential openings, or to work him in painful ways to distract him so I could create an opening -- I wouldn't pass out from hyperventilation and panic. :D

statisticool
01-23-2007, 06:53 PM
You know very well Mike does not go by the name Walter.


But it is not a "wrong" name, as claimed.


I've seen grade schoolers who would not bother with that level.


I'm sure you have.

Cady Goldfield
01-23-2007, 07:41 PM
Justin, you're splitting hairs. Just please stick to the basic rules of forum etiquette, which includes not making personal attacks against others - overtly or covertly. Calling another individual by a name which he or she does not wish to be called, is a form of ad hominem attack. But you know that. So stop pretending otherwise.Thanks.

statisticool
01-23-2007, 09:14 PM
Justin, you're splitting hairs. Just please stick to the basic rules of forum etiquette, which includes not making personal attacks against others - overtly or covertly. Calling another individual by a name which he or she does not wish to be called, is a form of ad hominem attack. But you know that. So stop pretending otherwise.Thanks.

Actually, that is not an ad hominem attack.

Here is what an ad hominem argument consists of:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Cady Goldfield
01-23-2007, 09:26 PM
Your attacks are frequently ad hominem. You regularly attack Mike as a deflection to dealing with his points and arguments. Anyway, you're still hair-splitting and attempting to divert, when you know what our point is. Perhaps you should take your disputes with Mike private and stop being so rude here, or maybe it's time to ask Jun to give you a "time out" from this website.

It's one thing to dislike a participant and to actively disagree with his opinions; it's another thing completely to be so disrespectful. When you call Mike, "Walter," it's to get a rise out of him, but it also shows disrespect to all of us here who prefer discussions and debates to attacks on a person.

eyrie
01-23-2007, 10:59 PM
Perhaps you should take your disputes with Mike private and stop being so rude here, or maybe it's time to ask Jun to give you a "time out" from this website.

<OT>
As a former moderator on FA.com, I'll say this, if this was FA, Justin would have been banned a looooong time ago.... but then, we had a really good team of moderators on FA in different timezones and it was run as a much tighter ship...
</OT>

Peter Savill
01-24-2007, 05:25 AM
Hello Kevin

Just watched Royce Gracie clip...what an incredible performance!

Best of luck to you at the w/e!

Best wishes

Peter

DonMagee
01-24-2007, 06:38 AM
Cady wrote:



I am not so sure that you can feel or exploit them much better so much as it becomes more of a necessity that you must do this in order to turn the tables on them.



Wish me luck, I am competing in the European BJJ Championships in Lisbon this weekend in the Super, Super Heavy Weight. I am 225, and over the super heavy weight by about 5 lbs...so, hopefully I don't end up with a 325 lb giant. that is usually my luck! I hate this weight class! Guess I should lose the weight!

I always like the Royce/Akebono fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvTkdI4GL5I

Ahh the good old days of style vs style.

Man, I'd probably sweat out 5 pounds to stay in a good weight class, but good luck to you :) I've lost 4 pounds simply by not eating breakfast until after I weighed in.

Cady Goldfield
01-24-2007, 07:59 AM
Hey, I didn't write that above quote, Kevin did! :p Dunno how that "Cady wrote:" item stayed in there. If I weighed 225, I don't think there would be any women's weight class that goes that high! I'd be in a class all my own. :D