Poll: Do you think your physical aikido abilities will keep getting more effective as you age into your elder years?

[Please visit our sponsor:]

[AikiWeb System]

AikiWeb Poll for the week of October 15, 2006:

Do you think your physical aikido abilities will keep getting more effective as you age into your elder years?

I don't do aikido
Yes
No


Here are the current results (http://www.aikiweb.com/polls/results.html?poll_id=345).

[Mary Eastland]

I have found as I get older that I am much stronger, flexible and agile than most people my age. My aikido getts simpler and more refined and more effective.

I wonder to the people who wrote no...why are you training in aikido if you don't think it is effective?

Mary

[Mark Uttech]

Although it may not be true of the majority, in every art there are some people who train just to train.Then there are others who think that as they age, their physical ability will naturally decline. There are also the the physical 'athletes' who know they won't be able to keep their youthful aggressiveness however hard they try. I learned early in my aikido training that 'to question effectiveness is to kill effectiveness'. I think it was Morihiro Saito Shihan who taught that.

In gassho,
Mark

[SeiserL]

Yes, as long as I keep training.

[jason jordan]

I think that the answer is yes! I plan on training until I die which won't be for another 50-60years from now, and like all great masters, i will go from strenth, to technique, from technique to no technique!!!

[ajbarron]

I would hope that those who have responded so far are in their "elder" years. :mad: Since the poll lacks clarity in this aspect ,and as we all know , with any good debate the defining of the terms allows for clear and incisive discussion. We should perhaps undertake this exercise at this time.

First let us look the contention "Do you think your physical aikido abilities will keep getting more effective as you age into your elder years?"

What do we mean by physical ? :yuck:
phys·i·cal adj
1. relating to the body, rather than with the mind, the soul, or the feelings
2. existing in the real material world, rather than as an idea or notion, and able to be touched and seen
3. involving or needing a lot of bodily strength or energy
4. involving a lot of bodily contact or aggression
5. tending to touch people or involving touching, especially in an affectionate or sexual way (informal)
6. used to describe sciences such as physics and chemistry that deal with nonliving things such as energy and matter

Since I am the first person, I will choose behind door number 2, existing in the real world.

For my second definition I'll choose abilities. evileyes
a·bil·i·ty n
1. the capacity to do something or perform successfully
2. a particular talent or acquired skill
3. a high degree of general skill or competence

Door number …………………………………2 a particular talent or acquired skill.

And so not to pass into obsurdity I will only look at only one more definition, and that is of the key term "elder" :D

eld·er1 adj
1. born before others, especially within a family, or having more seniority. See
2. superior to others, either by rank or experience

Let's pick number 1.

So what do we have? We have real world aikido, which is an acquired skill, effectively performed by your older brother or sister! (That is debating terms, might be called a minor "squirrel" of a topic.)

Now that we understand the poll I can vote ……………… perhaps

and you all can vote again.

P.S.

That was fun since I'm the third youngest elder in our dojo , plan on being the eldest in 10 to 30 years, my son will be my age in 40 years, and he will be in University in 2 and those young'uns got a long way to go if they want to catch me 'cause I can still run real fast. So take note Mark! :uch: Colin ! :uch: Todd!! :uch: et al

[pezalinski]

Do I think my abilities will keep getting better as I get older?

:D Duh! Or why keep doing it? Aikido is the art of neutralizing aggression -- why assume that a younger, more aggressive practitioner is naturally "better" than one who is old, less (obviously) aggressive, and wise?

My first sensei, Norio "Mike" Mamura (may he rest in peace) was and on the mat teaching until shortly (days) before he passed away at the age of 82. I'd only known him for 20 years, and he was kicking butts the whole time I knew him -- a sincere attack meant a serious fall/pin/lock was coming your way. He embodied the art of Aikido: technique executed not with strength, but with ki -- a proper application of minimal force in the right time and place to ensure maximal results.

He was the was a "typical" frail old man, 5ft-3 and maybe 120 lbs dripping wet, with a history of ailments as long as your arm (battled cancers, wore a pacemaker, walked witha cane), but none of that kept him from practicing his beloved art, and none of that kept him from constantly working at improving his aikido. And he really did get better as he got older :D

I can only strive to follow his example. :ai: :ki: :do:

[Gwion]

I think aikido abilities are spiritual abilities, not physical abilities, so the question is based on a false premise.

whether my ability to conquer contention and competitive mindedness in myself and transform my attacker into my friend would get better... I would certainly hope so.

[Joe Bowen]

Just to play the Devil's advocate evileyes , what about your ability to take ukemi? As you get older, will you be able to take that koshinage from the 6'6" 230lbs Nage? What about you're ability to take the ukemi from a kicking attack? Or what about your ability to provide a constant "realistic" attack as Uke for you partner?
These are some things to consider especially if you assign any importance or correlation between your ukemi ability and your ability to execute a technique.

[Erick Mead]

Just to play the Devil's advocate evileyes , what about your ability to take ukemi? As you get older, will you be able to take that koshinage from the 6'6" 230lbs Nage? The further I go in training I find it increasingly easy to "flow over" most koshinage -- molasses-like rather than chunk-like. My falls are more directed back at nage's center, which while it increases radial speed of turn in the fall markedly diminishes applied acceleration time for the same throw. I seem to have better sense of the rotation at contact with the ground, which distributes and delays impact force.

So it remains to be seen, but so far (I'm 40, ~20 years training) they are getting easier and softer, certainly from an impact standpoint.
What about you're ability to take the ukemi from a kicking attack? Kick? You are kidding, right? Those are the toguhest ukemi to take , without a doubt, And I doubt I will volunteer for those after about 70 or so. Of course, I cannot actually imagine wanting to try to employ a standing kick offensively. There are some interesting kaeshi-waza from the one-legged stance that may change my opinion on this, however, but they are only sketches of technique for me so far. The only kicks I find that remain routinely useful to me are close yokogeri or maegeri leg sweeps from the ground following ukemi -- or big, hooking back leg sweeps to clear the area while getting up.
Or what about your ability to provide a constant "realistic" attack as Uke for you partner? Precision should be feared more than mere force. Atemi get increasingly precise, I find, and I find almost every part of my limbs with a strike coming on line as I move more properly than I did when I was younger. So as I get older, I find opportunities for more, and more effective, strikes. I am not sure if that is "realistic," or just real.
These are some things to consider especially if you assign any importance or correlation between your ukemi ability and your ability to execute a technique.
Without a doubt I do -- but increasing refinement in displacing force, whether through ukewaza or nagewaza, not enduring the application of that force, seems the key to constant improvement with no obvious endpoint other than death.

[Erick Mead]

I think aikido abilities are spiritual abilities, not physical abilities, so the question is based on a false premise. I differ with you there on -- spiritual grounds. :D

The distinction between mind/spirit and matter is itself a false premise.
whether my ability to conquer contention and competitive mindedness in myself and transform my attacker into my friend would get better... I would certainly hope so. I gave up the idea of "making" friends. I cannot "make" uke do anything. Uke does everything -- I just help out :p

That, for me, is the heart of aiki. I simply do for him what he wanted to do -- just not the way he wanted it done.

All I offer is my hand -- how he takes it and what he does from that point are entirely up to him. He has the opportunity to transform his spirit, but that transformation can only be meaningfully expressed in the body.

I do not "try" to do anything, because to "try" anything would disturb his expression of spirit through his body -- which is the only way I can ever know if he changed his mind.

"Do -- or do not -- there is no try." :p

{I stilI love that quote.}

[Joe Bowen]

Good points, Eric, and I agree with you that as we progress in our Aikido our ukemi waza improves, but as we progress in age our physical ability degrades overall and all around. Bones become brittle, joints cease to function well, reconstructive surgery, bursitis, sciatica all can work to impede our range of motion and suppleness. Time waits for no man, and death comes to claim us all in the end... evileyes
Now at 40, maybe we can still take the high, hard falls and we even don't seem to land very hard, but how many 60-70 year olds do you know that are still willing to risk injury during aikido practice?
And, I'm not talking about ones ability to apply kaeshiwaza which in and of itself requires great ukemi skills, but in the course of regular aikido practice, on any given Sunday, the ukemi ability or willingness to participate 100% in a high fall or even overly aggressive ukemi diminishes.
I have seen a 70 yr old uchi-deshi in Japan, which is very motivating and inspiring, but he wasn't doing the hard ukemi either. Nor was anyone really willing to throw the guy hard.
Bottom line, even though I'm an optimist, as we get older our physical abilities in general decline, that is a fact of life, and if we include ukemi waza as part of our "physical aikido abilities" then, surely, we must face the reality that even though we may dream otherwise, there will be a decline. :sorry:

[Gwion]

I differ with you there on -- spiritual grounds. :D

The distinction between mind/spirit and matter is itself a false premise.
I gave up the idea of "making" friends. I cannot "make" uke do anything. Uke does everything -- I just help out :p

That, for me, is the heart of aiki. I simply do for him what he wanted to do -- just not the way he wanted it done.

All I offer is my hand -- how he takes it and what he does from that point are entirely up to him. He has the opportunity to transform his spirit, but that transformation can only be meaningfully expressed in the body.

I do not "try" to do anything, because to "try" anything would disturb his expression of spirit through his body -- which is the only way I can ever know if he changed his mind.

"Do -- or do not -- there is no try." :p

{I stilI love that quote.}

Very nice Eric, but if you want to 'win' a conversation that way, why stop there? This entire discussion board is based on the false premise that words are capable of communicating the absolute experience of reality, which is impossible. So all discussion is a futile exercise in false symbols that don't represent reality anyway.

and btw, I never said try. But thanks for the star wars quote.
Gonna quote monty python next?


:circle: :square: :triangle:

[Jill N]

Ni!

[Gwion]

Jill, you made me laugh.
:)
How're things up in Kitchener btw? I just met Jason Yee of Toronto Ki Aikido at a Kashiwaya Sensei Seminar in Chicago. Know him?