Aikido/BJJ combo??

[Please visit our sponsor:]

[Gerald Rhoades]

I was looking at some past forum threads and read a comment one guy left saying that he Trained in Aikido and in BJJ under Rickson Gracie. I just wanted to ask what people think about that combination. It seems to me that they compliment each other pretty well because Aikido would take care of Free movement and Clinch phase of combat, and BJJ the ground Phase, should it go to the ground. Also it seems to me that the 2 are somewhat similar in the sense that they both empasize that technique , not strength, is what will help you defend yourself against anyone of any size. But then again Ive only been in BJJ for 2 months so far, and im just going to start aikido. Also for those who do approve of this combo, especially that guy if he reads this, what do you think the pros for it are?? How would aikido improve your BJJ and do you think the BJJ can help improve your aikido in anyway??

[grondahl]

I´m sure that Don Magee will chip in, but search for Mits Yamashita.

[Kevin Wilbanks]

That combination will be pretty good, but you should also study Yarido. Otherwise, if some guy comes at you with a nine foot spear, you're toast.

[RampantWolf]

That combination will be pretty good, but you should also study Yarido. Otherwise, if some guy comes at you with a nine foot spear, you're toast.

You may laugh, but it happens... :)

OK then 7 foot spear... (http://www.sca.org.au/st_florians/gallery/2000/abbey/tourney5.jpg)

[Jorge Garcia]

What do you do if they have a gun with armor piercing bullets?!!! So many criminal types are armed these days! As a matter of fact, maybe we're thinking wrong here. Why would any one attack you hand to hand when using a firearm will quickly give you an advantage! How can we train so much for every contingency and then leave out defense against a firearm. Think about it. That leaves a gapping hole in your defense that your enemy will surely exploit!
Should I start a new thread,"BJJ against a gun? What about BJJ agaist a knife? What if you run into a knifefighter armed only with BJJ? Wait, what if he is a sumo wrestler?

[xuzen]

What do you do if they have a gun with armor piercing bullets?!!! So many criminal types are armed these days! As a matter of fact, maybe we're thinking wrong here. Why would any one attack you hand to hand when using a firearm will quickly give you an advantage! How can we train so much for every contingency and then leave out defense against a firearm. Think about it. That leaves a gapping hole in your defense that your enemy will surely exploit!
Should I start a new thread,"BJJ against a gun? What about BJJ agaist a knife? What if you run into a knifefighter armed only with BJJ? Wait, what if he is a sumo wrestler?

<In meeky voice>But, but, but... pls Mr Jorge sir, 90% of fight goes to the ground....

[grondahl]

As you can see there is a problem with aikido "seniors" that is tired of trolls wandering in to aikido forums, so much a problem that they actually rather attack you than trying to answer your question... That´s the kind of peaceful inner harmony that sincere aikido training results in ;)

I would treat BJJ and Aikido as two totally separate practices. I don't think that either will have an influence in the other since you would be a beginner in both. So if you decide to train aikido I suggest that you do so because you honestly wants to be good at aikido, not because of any possible "fringe benefits"

[Aristeia]

What do you do if they have a gun with armor piercing bullets?!!! So many criminal types are armed these days! As a matter of fact, maybe we're thinking wrong here. Why would any one attack you hand to hand when using a firearm will quickly give you an advantage! How can we train so much for every contingency and then leave out defense against a firearm. Think about it. That leaves a gapping hole in your defense that your enemy will surely exploit!
Should I start a new thread,"BJJ against a gun? What about BJJ agaist a knife? What if you run into a knifefighter armed only with BJJ? Wait, what if he is a sumo wrestler?
Jorge that's just the kind of response you (erroneously) accuse the BJJers of making. You're leaping into your own agenda with a blatant disregard for it's irrelevance to the topic.

The OP didn't ask if BJJ was necessary - if it was something he should be doing or if groundfighting is a requirement for fighting - he simply asked what people thought of training BJJ alongside Aikido. If you don't have a response to that - why post?

To answer the original question - yes they go together extremely well. The strategy behind each is more or less identical. The physical expression of that strategy has some differences (you have to learn to move in some different ways), but they are looking to acheive the same things in terms of flow, blending and technique.

If you've started in BJJ and going to Aikido (as opposed to going the other way) you may find the lack of full reisistnce sparring in Aikido hard to adjust to. But I reccommend you stick with it - Aikido will be a fantastic laboratory to develop your understanding of concepts that you will come back to in BJJ.

When I was doing both I sat in almost every BJJ class thnking "hey that's just like xyz in Aikido" and every aikido class thinking "hey I can apply the concepts from last night in BJJ to this".

The only drawback of course is you need twice as much training time. But if you're young and single, it could work :-)

[MM]

I was looking at some past forum threads and read a comment one guy left saying that he Trained in Aikido and in BJJ under Rickson Gracie. I just wanted to ask what people think about that combination. It seems to me that they compliment each other pretty well because Aikido would take care of Free movement and Clinch phase of combat, and BJJ the ground Phase, should it go to the ground. Also it seems to me that the 2 are somewhat similar in the sense that they both empasize that technique , not strength, is what will help you defend yourself against anyone of any size. But then again Ive only been in BJJ for 2 months so far, and im just going to start aikido. Also for those who do approve of this combo, especially that guy if he reads this, what do you think the pros for it are?? How would aikido improve your BJJ and do you think the BJJ can help improve your aikido in anyway??

2 months isn't a lot of time to understand any martial art. Maybe if you put some time into BJJ you'll find that it has everything there for you and you won't need to cross train in anything else. On the other side of that, you can substitute "Aikido" for "BJJ". Really, it comes down to you and which martial art you love or find an aptitude for. If you find that you love both Aikido and BJJ, then train in both and have a great life.

Mark

[DonMagee]

A good bjj school will give you a chance to explore body movement and resistance in a less restrictive enviorment. In my opinion training any kind of sport can only help you in the long run. You will get in better shape, gain more flexablity, gain more speed, learn how to deal with resistance, learn how to deal with being on the ground, learn how to deal with physical pain and discomfort, learn how to deal with weight, learn how to breathe, learn how to deal with losing, learn how to deal with a-holes, and you will have more oppertunity to try out your bjj on different body types and mindsets (sometimes if we never try it on other people we all get sucked into group think). You will really know if you can do something or not because those bjj guys are not going to let you do anything.

The biggest question is "What do you want out of the martial arts?". Until you know that, you can't really decide if bjj fits into your aikido. For me, I'm a scholar, I just like to train and learn. I'm also a big fan of competition, so I love judo, bjj, boxing, kickboxing, mma, and anything else I can compete in. I love aikido because of the grace it's practioners can exibit. But I found that I learn better though the bjj style of teaching. So I have found that by training bjj and judo, I have learned a lot about aikido. There were many concpets I did not understand in aikido until I spent many hours sparing in the club and messing around with the concpets.

So if you have the time, then you have nothing to lose by crosstraining. Just make sure you know why you are training, and that you are getting the most out of your time. If you are in aikido to learn about japanese tradition, history, and non violence, I don't think bjj is going to help further that goal.

Oh yea, and don't forget that wrist locks are very much legal in bjj. So learn them and try to use them. It's my goal this week to work on my wrist locks. Also, make sure you are starting from the standup if you are serious about learning bjj in a realistic enviorment. 90% of all fights start standing up ;-)

Re-reading the first post, going from bjj to aikido might be hard for most bjj guys. But keep an open mind and give it an honest shot. Aikido training methods seem to vary widely so there is no way to say "This is what should happen in an aikido class" beyond saying you will learn how to fall (always a good thing), learn how to use some footwork, wrist locks, and whole body movements. You will also have to train yourself to not resist. I know that when I go back to aikido I have to try very very hard to not fight back. But it is important to remember your goal as uke and play it out the way the teacher wants you to. The breakfall practice alone is probably worth it. But again, anytime your moving around, and moving with timing, motion, and resistance you are doing a good thing. And a lot of aikido schools have 2 of those 3, and some have all 3.

[Jorge Garcia]

Jorge that's just the kind of response you (erroneously) accuse the BJJers of making. You're leaping into your own agenda with a blatant disregard for it's irrelevance to the topic.

The OP didn't ask if BJJ was necessary - if it was something he should be doing or if ground fighting is a requirement for fighting - he simply asked what people thought of training BJJ alongside Aikido. If you don't have a response to that - why post?

To answer the original question - yes they go together extremely well. The strategy behind each is more or less identical. The physical expression of that strategy has some differences (you have to learn to move in some different ways), but they are looking to achieve the same things in terms of flow, blending and technique.

If you've started in BJJ and going to Aikido (as opposed to going the other way) you may find the lack of full resistance sparring in Aikido hard to adjust to. But I recommend you stick with it - Aikido will be a fantastic laboratory to develop your understanding of concepts that you will come back to in BJJ.

When I was doing both I sat in almost every BJJ class thinking "hey that's just like xyz in Aikido" and every aikido class thinking "hey I can apply the concepts from last night in BJJ to this".

The only drawback of course is you need twice as much training time. But if you're young and single, it could work :-)


It's just a joke Mike. Lighten up! Don't take yourself so seriously!
All our friend needs to do is to read the hundreds of posts on previous threads to find his answers. It seems like you have been waiting for this to come up again so you could start giving the BJJ advice again. I am glad to let it go. Knock yourself out and have fun! See you eight or nine hundreds posts from now. You'll be giving the same answers!
Best wishes,

[Cyrijl]

Get ready for alot of whining if you start aikido. As you can see form the posts, the typical aikidoka (that I run into) think aikido is the end all be all of martial arts. I was constantly told by the students in my class how great they all were, but aside from the sensei (who were really good), many of the students just hid behind their PJ's. I have been looking for another aikido school ever since.

HOWEVER!!,
I agree with Don. If you go into aikido with an open mind and remember that you are in aikido not bjj, you will proabably learn alot. Aikido has alot to offer. But you may find the culture a bit too much. If you are looking for more combat then you might want to look into judo, or a more informal 'Aikido Group' rather than a traditional Dojo. Either way good luck, be safe and have fun.

--Edited:
By whining i mean from some of the other students who think that other arts are inferior

[Enslin]

Motivation and goal – these should be the factors you take into account. Every budo will find common ground. The problem is not the budo, rather the practitioner. Every student of the martial way should evaluate himself against a given situation. If this; then that. Automated behaviour should be re-evaluated. Be conscious of the opponent and the weapons he may bring to the fight i.e. biting, gouging etc. These are scenarios we do not train for. Even BJJ is not equipped for this type of attack. Cross train by all means, just make sure it allows for a more integrated combatant and human being. :)

[MM]

Also, make sure you are starting from the standup if you are serious about learning bjj in a realistic enviorment. 90% of all fights start standing up ;-)


LOL! That was great!

Seriously, though, it was a good post with great advice.

Mark

[DonMagee]

By whining i mean from some of the other students who think that other arts are inferior

I have met a lot of "my art is the best" guys in many many martial arts. Personally I find the worst whining done by bujinkan people I have met. The biggest jerk I've ever met who did this was a judo instructor I tried to train under. He swore up and down a judo guy can beat a bjj guy any day of the week. He made it impossible for me to learn judo from him because he would spent the entire class trying to convince me my bjj training was a waste of time.

I think the problem stems from their own fears of being inferior. Any person with confidence will know it is the person that makes the fighter not the art. Fighting is about mental and physical toughness and martial arts simply refine what is already there making a good fighter a great fighter, or making a horrible fighter an average fighter. While sport fighters also suffer from the "my art is the best in the world" type thinking, it is usually the noobs who think this way. Most advanced practioners have had their butts handed to them enough to know they need to give respect to other arts. However I find that in non-sport arts there is a higher number of high ranking people who think they are unbeatable or their art is invincible. This usually stems from years of never having been challenged and could be resolved with a few friendly sparing matches. Which they won't do because if they did, they would have to kill you (Which shows how much control they have as a martial artist, they are not good enough to submit you or knock you out, they must resort to killing and maiming to win).

My aikido teacher did not have a problem with me training in any other art, he could see the benfits I was gaining from them. This shows confidence in his ablity (He was not afraid of I would find out his 'stuff did not work') and it also shows that he is realistic about conflict (He knows that it is the person and not the art that makes a master, and that I can take many paths to develop skill.) I also think he also belives that my cross training will eventually lead me back to more aikido training.

His problem stemmed from my lack of commitment to aikido. As I started missing more and more aikido classes to focus on bjj and judo tourneys, I was being uncommited to my aikido and really wasting people's time when I did come in. Fast forward to today however, I have learned a lot from my judo and bjj training and started to understand those concepts I could never grapsed when I was active in aikido. (I just learn better with sport training methods.) When I go to an occasional aikido class I find it is easy to pick up new techniques and work with the class. This is probably because I am learning the same types of body movement (although not explained the same way) in my judo and bjj training.

The bigest problem I have is learning to adapt to the training enviorment. It requires a different kind of attention and focus. In my judo or bjj class, I slam out drills and get corrected for a few minutes, then we add resistance and eventually I am working under a lot of physical pressure to keep my attention focused. In aikido, we are much slower paced with a lot of very small fine focused movements over and over and over and over and over and over until they are right. This requires an act of will to stay focused. In sparing, lost of attention or focus means I will get submited. In aikido, loss of attention in an ikkyo drill will just mean the guy will not receieve ukemi. Because of this I have to make sure to not get distracted by the lack of activity and what others are doing around me. It is easy to get distracted and watch someone else work a technique (maybe some higher belts working some really cool stuff) while you are trying to get a basic movement down. It is a lot harder to lose focus when you have someone try to choke the crap out of you.

[Cyrijl]

I think you took the words right out of my keyboard, Don. My old Sensei had no problems with me training somewhere else, it was mostly the higher ranking students. Some of the things they said to me were absolutely absurd.

[Aristeia]

I think this is an interesting case - because it's not the usual thing we see here - an akidoka asking about adding in BJJ. It's the opposite -a BJJer (ableit a freash one) asking whether it's worth starting Aikido.

Which is why the biggest challenge imo will be putting aside the BJJ methodology and taking the leap of faith that the Aikido training methodology will add value even though it's not as immediately apparent. And I'm sure there will be attitudes from certain people within the BJJ club (not necessarily the coach) that will discourage a foray into Aikido - so it's an interesting little role reversal.

[Kevin Leavitt]

I think it would be very difficult going from BJJ to aikido. I started the other way around, but I know that a few of my BJJ students that I work with on aikido methodologies really struggle with understanding it. I tell them to drop the whole practical application "does it work in a fight" mentality and simple "let go" and look at it as an methodology to improve their subtleness, skill, movement, blending, relaxation etc.

I personally find my aikido coming back to me slowly, albeit in a much different manner, as I get better at the close fight.

[Tom Fish]

Greetings All,
Many of us train in more than one martial art. To those that only study Aikido, you are truly discovering a wonderful path. To those of us who are training in multiple systems, we can also enjoy what we do. My Aikido studies do add to understanding in other styles. I would say though that Aikido takes the longest to learn and is the truly enjoyable. My advice would be to take advantage of what you can, when you can. Find the best instructors and you will get the greatest rewards for your time. If you are not enjoying what you are doing, find something that works better for you. BJJ complements Judo's mat work, and Judo complements Aikido's study of kuzushi. It's all good. Train hard and enjoy life.
Best Regards
Tom

[bash1227]

Hi Gerald To Answer Your Question Yes It Would Help Your Fighting Skills But Will Not Really Improve Much Of Your Aikido But Like My Sensei Katsumi Niikura Always Says One Martial Art Is Not Enough You Most Master As Many As You Can I Study Aikido With Katsumi Niikura For 11 Years I'm A Sandan I Also Study Karate With Hem And Jujitsu And Aido And Also Study Judo With Saito Sensei Who Is The Usa Olympic Referee For The Past 2 Olympics Very Fame's Japanese Instructor's Who Both Will Tell You One Martial Art Is Not Enough Great Warriors Samurai And Others Study As Many Styles As They Can To Become Grate O Sensei Is Prime Example Look In To The Greatest Martial Artist You Will See There Background Involved Many Different Arts Many People I Have Realized On This Forum Mug Arts And Schools That Are Not The Traditional Aikido Style They Mocked Niikura Sensei Saying Is A Fake, I Have Been To Osaka Japan With Sensei And Trained At The Hombu Dojo Where He Trained With His Sensei Morihei Ueshiba And My Rank Was Recognized By Just Mentioning His Name The Top Instructors Knew Hem Personally I Also Trained With His Very Good Friend Hun Da Sensei Who Is One Of Yamashida Instructors In Judo Yamashida For Those Who Don't Know Is Considered The God Of Judo (olympic Gold 1984)they All Highly Speak Of Hem But Still I Found Many To Moac Hem On This Forum For Not Teaching Traditional Aikido But Budo Or Bushido Was Never The Way Of One Art Warriors Had To Learn Diverse Arts Th Rue The Years To Become Great If You Can,learn As Many Arts As Possible And Then Decide What Works Trust Me When I Say Aikido Is Not Enough If Any One Argues This Then They Have Never Tested There Aikido Against A True Fighter A Ju Doka With Be Prime Test To See How Affective Aikido Alone Would Really Be

[DaveS]

I think this is an interesting case - because it's not the usual thing we see here - an akidoka asking about adding in BJJ. It's the opposite -a BJJer (ableit a freash one) asking whether it's worth starting Aikido.There's probably an interesting comparison with Ueshiba's early students to be had here...

[gdandscompserv]

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b379/deserthippie/canoworms.gif

[Gerald Rhoades]

And I'm sure there will be attitudes from certain people within the BJJ club (not necessarily the coach) that will discourage a foray into Aikido - so it's an interesting little role reversal.

yeah ive actually already gotten some of that. See , the gym offers Aikido, BJJ, and Muay thai. Almost everyone in BJJ crosstrains with Muay thai. But NO ONE crosstrains BJJ with aikido, so asked the guys why that is....most of them said that it seemed like it takes too long and that you have to the moves totally memorized in your mind to make it work off reaction and that it took too long to do that. The instructor told me that he liked aikido , but that it depended on the sensei. The current one at the gym he doesnt like too much. On the other hand, there is one dude in BJJ (actually the best one under the instructor) who before BJJ did aikido, and he is a black belt in it. So when i learned this, i asked him , and he told me to go for it. That it was definetely worth it, and that he actually thought more of aikido because he thought it related more to real life. Of the current sensei he differed with our BJJ instructor, cuz he said he IS good, but that hes real technical (i dont know if in aikido that means something good or bad..)
I also asked some of the guys in the aikido class (which none of them take BJJ or Muay thai) and they said they think none of the guys in the other 2 arts like it because its not as intense at that they want more contact and things like that.
Any how, im gonna definetly get into aikido(as soon as my back lets me..) , its something ive always wanted to do...i just wanted to get peoples opinions from the forum on combining BJJ with aikido...
Also , from the videos ive seen , it seems to me like in aikido you learn to roll with the projections and all that stuff, so it seems to me that it wont be so hard on my back as something like judo where it looks to me that they are constantly slammed onto their back or sides...
Thanks for all the info guys....

[Kevin Wilbanks]

Good thinking about the falls. All in all, learning how to fall safely is probably a lot more likely to save you from pain and injury in life than learning how to kick someone's ass.

However, you will likely take some pretty clunky falls along the way when first learning that will put some serious stress on your shoulders, back and hips. You should make sure there is nothing serious wrong with your back and do rehab and/or preparatory conditioning to address the problem before you start.

All jokes aside, the only serious reason not to do any martial art plus any other is that you will be splitting your time, attention and recovery resources, which will probably result in less progress in each than you would get in one at a time... which is really an ambition problem, if anything.

It sounds like you are overthinking the decision. If you want to do it, just try it for a while and don't worry about all the analysis and advice. Review how you feel about what you are doing periodically and go with your gut. Unless you are going into some kind of mixed martial arts competitions, concerns you have about what combines with what and for what purpose are likely also of no practical importance to your life. Studying an art seriously is an ongoing life-transforming experience. Your perspectives and motivations will probably change so much over time that what you are thinking now will seem alien to you in just a few years.

[Aristeia]

yep the falls are easier in aikido than judo - for a start you don't have people *planning* to land their bodyweight on your ribs after they throw you ;-)

Depending ont he Aikido sensei you may experience a bit of cold shooulder if you are the first BJJ guy to cross train there - some in the community don't like the thought of their students cross training in BJJ and may feel like a bjjer in the class could be the start of that. But those are in the minority so you're more likely to get someone who's cool with it. It's a bunch of fun, in a different way to BJJ which makes doing the two even more fun. And it can be pretty effective for practical self defence as well. Enjoy.

[xuzen]

Don,

After reading your post #15, I feel as though I am taking the same scenic route as you did.

I can understand what you are trying to say now more clearly, as compare to 1 year ago before I took up a more competition/sport based art, namely judo.

Boon.

[CNYMike]

.... When I go to an occasional aikido class I find it is easy to pick up new techniques and work with the class. This is probably because I am learning the same types of body movement (although not explained the same way) in my judo and bjj training ......

Probably. I also believe that a big part of the first phase of MA training is how to learn how to make your body do specific things; most people stop working on that when they learn to walk, so trying to do something specific can be difficult. Once you pass through that phase, it's easy to "pick things up." Getting them perfect is another matter. :)

[Kevin Leavitt]

I spend most of my time in my BJJ classes trying to teach students to align there bodies properly when doing technique. I wish they had the time and patience to use aikido methodlogy to learn these things!

However, when your primary goal is to gain a certain level of empty hand fighting effiiciency....you have to work both ends, the sacrifice is what I would call "proper body mechanicss/kinesiology". Conversely, when you spend all your time in a methodlogy like aikido you sacrifice the ability to fight effectively in the short term.

That is why I think they are very complimentary.

Someone that has studied aikido will adopt BJJ very quickly if they stick to it for a while as the principles are the same and you are rewarded in the long run for assimilating proper posture, mechanics, and kinesology.

[aikidjoe]

Also for those who do approve of this combo, especially that guy if he reads this, what do you think the pros for it are?? How would aikido improve your BJJ and do you think the BJJ can help improve your aikido in anyway??

I know quite a few people both in Boulder and Seattle that do both. Bookman Sensei (Seattle) practices both, and has told me that he feels there is some connection between the two because of similar philosophies behind the technique and is trying to organically form his BJJ into Aikido (a whole other topic...what is Aikido?). Whether or not he's chasing a ghost, it's something to think about.

In any case, most fights do end up on the ground, so having some skill at ground fighting is a good idea if you're training is geared towards martial ability. But since you seem to be a beginner in both arts, I'd not worry about connecting the two, and focus on each separately. Over time, each will affect the other; your perspective will change, and your practice may become deeper, and maybe you'll perceive a connection between the two. But don't let one interfere with the other, that's the danger. Keep in mind Aikido was developed in an entirely different way than BJJ, and so is fundamentally different, and requires a different attitude while training, generally.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/media.php?media=radio

A link to a radio lecture with Stanley Pranin, Ikeda Sensei, Saotome Sensei, and Ushiro Sensei (Karate) on cross training. It's long, 104 minutes, but I feel is very good.

[deepsoup]

I've been fortunate enough to attend a few sessions with a gentleman by the name of Gadi Shorr.

(Based in Watford, UK) He's a Yoshinkan 5th dan, a graduate of the (in)famous senshusei course and has a good deal of BJJ experience. In his formal classes he teaches straight down the line Yoshinkan, but in seminars switches seamlessly from aikido to BJJ and back again, and can explain BJJ techniques in very "aiki" terms.

To attend one of those sessions (which I can't recommend highly enough), you wouldn't think there was any difference between aikido and BJJ at all!

Sean
x

[Steve Wright]

I've been fortunate enough to attend a few sessions with a gentleman by the name of Gadi Shorr.

(Based in Watford, UK) He's a Yoshinkan 5th dan, a graduate of the (in)famous senshusei course and has a good deal of BJJ experience. In his formal classes he teaches straight down the line Yoshinkan, but in seminars switches seamlessly from aikido to BJJ and back again, and can explain BJJ techniques in very "aiki" terms.

To attend one of those sessions (which I can't recommend highly enough), you wouldn't think there was any difference between aikido and BJJ at all!

Sean
x

Haven't posted in a while but this caught my eye. If the instruction is high quality you will see very little diffence between aikido, bjj, or judo. I spent a week at a judo training camp in New York in August. There was some beautiful, flowing judo that resembled aikido in every way. I have also seen some film of the Gracies in action with bjj. I see no difference. I know for a fact that I would not survive 10 seconds with Royce Gracie if he wanted to kill me. a very powerfull, flowing, aiki-type art on the ground. More impressive than a lot of aikido that I have seen.