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xuzen
09-03-2006, 11:01 PM
Clip by watanabe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3viOy-bQSyU) FYI, this Watanabe sensei is apparently an 8th Dan teacher, but I am unsure what school he belongs too.

At 0.54" - 1.00" part of the clip, I am baffled... What the hell is he doing?

I have done many years on aikido from Tomiki to Hombu to Yoshinkan, and I have never come across my teachers doing these things to me or my fellow dojo mates.

My question to members of aikiweb, what is your verdict, are these type of no touch throw fake aikido?

If any of you guys/gals are student of Sensei Watanabe, your inputs are welcomed.

Boon.

kocakb
09-03-2006, 11:45 PM
I have respect to those people, and because of not have been thrown by "no touch throw", I can not say if it is fake or not. There is a clip by O'Sensei's no touch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCjySZuVDkQ

if Watanabe Sensei's no touch technique is fake, then I think he must have learnt it from O'Sensei :)

PS: at the clip of Watanabe Sensei, below at the comments, a guy wrote:
"Great Video! I met Watanabe Sensei last year in munich and I had the possibility to attack him with a Suwariwaza Shomenuchi. He threw me over the mat without even touching me- i think he didn't even move. I never heard about his amazing technique before, so I was very surprised."
and also it is written that more info can be found at:

www.kenbukai.de and interview at http://www.aiki-zen.de

Gernot Hassenpflug
09-04-2006, 12:09 AM
Automatic body reaction to some movement by other person. Trained reflex. experience something like that in training too. But the mindset is already prepared beforehand: I am ocming in with expectation to be uke, so what remains is only for tori to make the throw. In training I am giving myself as an opportunity for tori to train too. If I start the attack as tori, then it is quite different, and the other tori has to work his butt off to make anything work.

villrg0a
09-04-2006, 12:16 AM
We had a seminar about 2/3 years ago. The visiting shihan explained to us something about "aura", and that it can be developed. Some people have "thin" layers while others have "thick" ones, sort of like an extension of "ki". Naruto calls it chakra :) He said these things can be worked on. Similar to punching, before it reaches the target it's already damaged (stuff like that). It's the same effect when you are riding a motorcyle and then all of sudden a truck overtakes you, then you have a sidewind sort of.

He asked me to punch him in the chest and not withdraw my hand after the punch, he evaded the punch and started to "slowly" approach me, as he is getting nearer I can feel I am starting to move, tilting so to speak, and..... he gets nearer and nearer until his "gi" touches mine and I was completely unbalanced and down I went.

Did I feel power? Not really, it was something else. There could be another explanation but I felt I was being intimidated, something psychological happenned. I was afraid of him. I respected him, and I believed in him, etc., etc.. Put all these factors into consideration and then add the "aura" thingy and there you go.

Well about the video, I think uke is not resisting and that uke is well focused on absorbing nage/shite energy, or another way to put it is that nage's aura/energy is just thick enough for uke.

That's just the way I see it and I am just a newbie to aikido.

wayneth
09-04-2006, 01:02 AM
I think that is Nobuyuki Watanabe Sensei, 8th Dan instructor from Aikikai Hombu Dojo. Personally thinking, it's a less harsh way of doing what people like Shioda Sensei have done. Instead of the Uke coming into the hand of Tori, he has backed of a bit. If you get me on this.
I think most people don't see this type of thing because many people are used to having the contact when being thrown, this is probably so of someone like Xuzen. Who is a Yoshinkan practitioner and what I've seen is that they don't let their Uke go until they are about an inch of the ground.
So what Watanabe Sensei is doing is just the same as what Isoyama Sensei, Shioda Sensei etc. have and are doing in their Aikido.
Wayne

Gernot Hassenpflug
09-04-2006, 01:09 AM
Yes, the true capability is mostly hidden by the willing uke.

grondahl
09-04-2006, 01:13 AM
search for Watanabe on E-budo.

I´m sure that he has solid taijutsu, but those clips with the no-touch stuff makes me cringe and wish that I was in another organisation.

Amir Krause
09-04-2006, 01:45 AM
I am not of Aikikai and yet I would be careful of passing any judgment based on this SHOW. It is a part of a demonstration and the intention behind this section is definitely not to show the effective Aikido techniques against an attack. I think the purpose is to show Uke developing sensitivity more and not something else.


Amir

grondahl
09-04-2006, 01:56 AM
As I said: his taijutsu is certainly beyond my mere comprehension but the "clap your hands and uke does a backflip from 1,5 meters" that is shown in some of the demos of him still makes me cringe.

wayneth
09-04-2006, 02:22 AM
Like Amir said it's probably the sensitivity of his Uke, which is like I said earlier. I mean Tissier Sensei wouldn't be able to do half of the things without his Ukes, if I am right doesn't he use the same Ukes for all his demonstrations.
Shioda Sensei, Saito Sensei etc. all showed this type of feeling in their techniques. Except the only difference between these men and Watanabe Sensei is that their Ukes are more sensitive to what is happening.
Watching demonstrations of Shioda Sensei, his Ukes (more than likely his most senior students?) are sometimes having a hard time taking his techniques. I mean they are shaking their legs, rubbing their necks etc. So again its probably just a less "harmfull" version to what Shioda Sensei did when he demonstrated.

grondahl
09-04-2006, 02:49 AM
http://aitekai.dnsdojo.org/jak/film/budokan/Watanabe%20W8%20320.wmv

Clap your hands, say yeah

statisticool
09-04-2006, 03:05 AM
Clip by watanabe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3viOy-bQSyU) FYI, this Watanabe sensei is apparently an 8th Dan teacher, but I am unsure what school he belongs too.

At 0.54" - 1.00" part of the clip, I am baffled... What the hell is he doing?



Not to be disrespectful, but because I think such things are disrespectful to the martial arts, it is somewhat difficult to even justify the uke developing sensitivity. Sensitivity to what, flipping when the master claps?

You'd have to then admit that the purpose of that demonstration was then for entertainment. So much for budo!


IMO,
Justin

xuzen
09-04-2006, 03:08 AM
Extremely sensitive uke reminds me of Pavlow and his doggy experiments. There is flinch reaction (which is normal human reaction) and then there is ... well the above No Touch Throws.

Grondahl, I too cringe when I see this clip.

Boon.

Dazzler
09-04-2006, 05:46 AM
Have to say I don't get this at all.

I try and be open minded about it and assume that maybe I'll see whats going on one day, but when ukes flip like performing seals it just looks like a joke.

Unfortunately the joke is what stands out which is a shame cos I quite like some of the movement albeit made simple by the ukes affinity with the tatami.

Ho hum....another opening for the rest of the MA world to giggle at the expense of Aikido.

kocakb
09-04-2006, 06:11 AM
to much harmony while training makes us too "soft" outside. My 15 years old nephew (not doing any MA) was able to make "a tekagami pin" :blush: I was just grapping his wrist, he did it somehow and my body was ready to take an ukemi...I don't think that any other Martial artist would allow this.

To much harmony, being ready to fall and "telegraphed" attacks-techniques makes aikido look fake, feel fake and ineffective. :disgust:

"No touch throw", I don't believe that someone could throw me by clapping hands. On the other hand, there was a technique, we trained. While I attacked my sensei full speed, he kneeled and I could not resist to fall over him. He did not touch me, but this is something else...

Peter Goldsbury
09-04-2006, 07:24 AM
Hello,

Before you guys crucify Watanabe Sensei here, please remember that his demonstrations in May are usually quite different from his regular classes at the Hombu. I have taken his classes at the Hombu and they are quite 'normal', with strong attacks expected and no 'no-touch' techniques.

As for O Sensei, well, I cannot comment. But I suggest those who believe that the ukes were tanking for O Sensei talk to his deshi: Tamura, Yamada and especially Chiba, before reaching any conclusions.

I think Watanabe Sensei plays to the gallery at these All-Japan demonstrations, as did Mr Seagal a few years ago. In all cases the ukes are usually students or deshi of the shihan. In no cases are they persons who have never trained with the shihan. So they know what the techniques are likely to be. For example, Isoyama Sensei never does a demonstration in May unless he has an uke who is accustomed to his kata-guruma techniques. If not, it woild be too dangerous. So, what would be the purpose of such a demonstration? I leave you to decide.

In addition, students in aikido clubs at Japanese pride themselves on being able to take 'perfect' ukemi. In some sense, being a student at a Japanese university aikido club is an exploration of the limitations of one's own body, in relation to the 'Platonic' ukemi form. Thus , the ukes for ALL the shihans are their own close students, who are chosen because they can do the ukemi expected by their shihan very well.

Finally, I have seen one situation where a shihan at a demonstration used an uke with whom he had never trained before: the uke was injured.

I think demonstrations are very special and should be avoided unless absolutely necessary.

Best wishes,

Mary Eastland
09-04-2006, 09:11 AM
Peter Goldsbury wrote.....I think demonstrations are very special and should be avoided unless absolutely necessary.
Best wishes,[/QUOTE]

Hi Peter:

I am not sure what you mean by your final sentence. Could you clarify, please? :)

On another note:

I enjoyed this demonstration. Thank you, Xuzen, for posting it. The ukes are amazing and Watanabe Sensei's timing is impeccable.

Mary

Don_Modesto
09-04-2006, 10:08 AM
I´m sure that he has solid taijutsu, but those clips with the no-touch stuff makes me cringe and wish that I was in another organisation.Me, too.

I'm told by a witness to the occasion that Watanabe once made an appearance in Miami where he tried the no-touch stuff. His laconic UKE--Dr. Johnson redux, God love him!--smacked him upside the head.

Watanabe made his displeasure known and UKE was invited off the mat.

I can't say if he's precisely a BS artist, there might be something to be gained studyinng the vectors of his movement (Osawa did some very slomo aikido, too, and I don't doubt him), but he IS, at least, a bad loser.

And that video... if Jim Carrey did it on SNL, it'd be comedy.

wayneth
09-04-2006, 10:18 AM
I would imagine many of the senior Shihan have their little things which they love to perform and many people think "their attacker is just jumping" etc.
I mean I think sometimes that what Kanetsuka Sensei is doing at the moment, is just because his Uke are helping him to do it. This was until I felt it personally and really started thinking what is he doing?
Wasn't Saito Sensei thought to be a "fraud" in the 70s because his Aikido didn't to that of O Sensei in his video demonstrations. So I guess this is the same thing as what Mr Goldsbury said about Watanabe Sensei playing to the crowd at these demonstrations. Since O Sensei never did what he thought was his Aikido to the public, probably because he was a big Martial Art Traditionalist (almost Samurai like in his attitude).
Didn't Saito Sensei dislocate one of his Ukes shoulders before, I think it was at one of the All-Japan Demonstrations.
Wayne

wayneth
09-04-2006, 11:43 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCjySZuVDkQ&mode=related&search=

Peter Goldsbury
09-04-2006, 07:02 PM
Peter Goldsbury wrote.....I think demonstrations are very special and should be avoided unless absolutely necessary.
Best wishes,

Hi Peter:

I am not sure what you mean by your final sentence. Could you clarify, please? :)

On another note:

I enjoyed this demonstration. Thank you, Xuzen, for posting it. The ukes are amazing and Watanabe Sensei's timing is impeccable.

Mary[/QUOTE]

Hello Mary,

I was brought up in an aikido school of thought according to which demonstrations are no different from one's daily training. In other words, if you need to do a demonstration, you show precisely the kind of waza that you would do in a class. This is one reason why I do not like some parts of the All-Japan Demonstration. They are too staged and some shihans appear to do 'special' waza, just because it is a demonstration.

So then the question arises why one would need to a 'demonstration', as against 'normal training'. In O Sensei's case, the demonstration was an expression of respect to the emperor and the demonstrations held in Iwama are done for a similar particular purpose, as an offering to the shrine deities.

However, my way of thinking is probably conservative.

Best wishes,

raul rodrigo
09-04-2006, 07:13 PM
Didn't Saito Sensei dislocate one of his Ukes shoulders before, I think it was at one of the All-Japan Demonstrations.
Wayne


It was Shigemi Inagaki, 7th dan, who Saito injured—Inagaki was one of Saito's most senior students. In Iwama he was called the "resident monster." If even an Inagaki can get injured in a demonstration, then we might want to rethink the idea of demonstrations.

xuzen
09-04-2006, 11:21 PM
Grrrr.... Mary. You should not encourage these behaviour. If you like to see body fliiping about when someone claps, you get plenty of those from SEA-WORLD (TM).

kocakb
09-04-2006, 11:45 PM
Grrrr.... Mary. You should not encourage these behaviour. If you like to see body fliiping about when someone claps, you get plenty of those from SEA-WORLD (TM).

:D :D :D funny, you made me smile ;)

wayneth
09-05-2006, 12:09 AM
Wasn't it O Sensei that did not like to do demonstrations, especially infront of high ranking officials. Because of something that he would have to show the real Aikido, which meant that he would have to break peoples bones or something. Can someone clarify this please, I think it was in the 1930's when Shioda Sensei was at the Kobukan?
The reason I put up the clip of O Sensei (which I believe was his last public teaching or demonstration) was because Ueshiba Sensei is doing almost the same as Watanabe Sensei, except I believe it is a bit more believable because his Ukes are not flipping.
Wayne

xuzen
09-05-2006, 12:29 AM
Can someone clarify this please, I think it was in the 1930's when Shioda Sensei was at the Kobukan?
The reason I put up the clip of O Sensei (which I believe was his last public teaching or demonstration) was because Ueshiba Sensei is doing almost the same as Watanabe Sensei, except I believe it is a bit more believable because his Ukes are not flipping.
Wayne

Nope it was not Shioda Kancho. Kancho has adamentium bones, he does not break easily. (Sorry for the jest). It was someone else and the name slip my mind at the moment.

Boon.

wayneth
09-05-2006, 12:43 AM
The Ukes at that demonstration were Tsutomu Yukawa and Gozo Shioda. There is an interview of Shioda Sensei in Aikido Journal, he is asked about Ueshiba Senseis demonstration to the emperor.
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=425&highlight=Ueshiba+and+Emperor

raul rodrigo
09-05-2006, 02:38 AM
Grrrr.... Mary. You should not encourage these behaviour. If you like to see body fliiping about when someone claps, you get plenty of those from SEA-WORLD (TM).


on the other hand, the chances of getting injured on this technique are pretty low.

Mary Eastland
09-05-2006, 05:59 AM
Grrrr.... Mary. You should not encourage these behaviour. If you like to see body fliiping about when someone claps, you get plenty of those from SEA-WORLD (TM).

lol :D

I think it easy to look at something like that and have opionions about it....but he could have been making a point about something..We can't hear what he said before or after.

I also believe that things are possible that we don't understand,. :)

Mary.

gdandscompserv
09-05-2006, 06:49 AM
My question to members of aikiweb, what is your verdict, are these type of no touch throw fake aikido?
My question to you is; What is fake aikido?
When we train and cooperate, is that fake aikido? It is obvious that Watanabe Sensei's uke are cooperating with him. That's the point. The ideal is a finely tuned sense of oneness with one's sensei. I remember the times I could reach that state with Yamaguchi Sensei. It was really a nice feeling. I always felt honored to take ukemi for Yamaguchi Sensei. He would often ask me to resist him in class, as I am kinda big and he loved demonstrating the effectives of aikido on large Americans. It got so that he really had to tell you to resist, because we new it would hurt more, but he wanted to demonstrate a principle so we would bear down and wait for the pain. Never a thought that he would injure us, but the pain was significant. :D But I would never think of resisting or testing his aikido in a public demonstration. I always tried to keep up with his aikido as best I could and he was kind enough to slow it down as best he could, and every so often our aikido would meet-and oh how sweet it was.

Don_Modesto
09-05-2006, 07:30 AM
My question to you is; What is fake aikido?
When we train and cooperate, is that fake aikido?Good question. Strikes to the heart of the issue.

Truth be told, as one never--NEVER--sees teachers reversed during demos, we know that we are seeing "demonstration" aikido, as opposed to that idea of the fluid reversal of UKE/NAGE roles. As you said, "But I would never think of resisting or testing his aikido in a public demonstration."
....Yamaguchi Sensei. He would often ask me to resist him in class, as I am kinda big and he loved demonstrating the effectives of aikido on large Americans.I'd like to hear Szc...'s comments here. He once wrote unfavorably of Y. for NOT wanting strong attacks.
I always tried to keep up with his aikido as best I could and he was kind enough to slow it down as best he could, and every so often our aikido would meet-and oh how sweet it was. Lucky you. I only took his UKEMI once or twice.

Peter Goldsbury
09-05-2006, 07:48 AM
My question to you is; What is fake aikido?
When we train and cooperate, is that fake aikido? It is obvious that Watanabe Sensei's uke are cooperating with him. That's the point. The ideal is a finely tuned sense of oneness with one's sensei. I remember the times I could reach that state with Yamaguchi Sensei. It was really a nice feeling. I always felt honored to take ukemi for Yamaguchi Sensei. He would often ask me to resist him in class, as I am kinda big and he loved demonstrating the effectives of aikido on large Americans. It got so that he really had to tell you to resist, because we new it would hurt more, but he wanted to demonstrate a principle so we would bear down and wait for the pain. Never a thought that he would injure us, but the pain was significant. :D But I would never think of resisting or testing his aikido in a public demonstration. I always tried to keep up with his aikido as best I could and he was kind enough to slow it down as best he could, and every so often our aikido would meet-and oh how sweet it was.

Mr Wood,

In your profile you give Yamaguchi Iwao as your primary teacher. Some of us, however, thought that the Yamaguchi you referred to in your earlier post was the late Yamaguchi Seigo, 9th Dan Hombu Shihan. Are we talking about the same person?

Best wishes,

kocakb
09-05-2006, 07:51 AM
[QUOTE=Ricky Wood]My question to you is; What is fake aikido?
When we train and cooperate, is that fake aikido?QUOTE]

Cooperation is very important, especially in demonstrations. But should it also not have a limit? I mean, is it correct to take ukemi even the nage has not applied a technique: like no touch throw...
Would it not fooling myself, my partner and the public (people outside dojo would just smile and think "the guy is like Neo (Matrix)")...and fake aikido is one of the main reason why we always discuss "is aikido effective" etc...

gdandscompserv
09-05-2006, 08:27 AM
Mr Wood,

In your profile you give Yamaguchi Iwao as your primary teacher. Some of us, however, thought that the Yamaguchi you referred to in your earlier post was the late Yamaguchi Seigo, 9th Dan Hombu Shihan. Are we talking about the same person?

Best wishes,
Sorry for the confusion.
I am referring to Iwao Yamaguchi Sensei of Okinawa Aikikai.

gdandscompserv
09-05-2006, 08:30 AM
[QUOTE=Ricky Wood]My question to you is; What is fake aikido?
When we train and cooperate, is that fake aikido?QUOTE]

Cooperation is very important, especially in demonstrations. But should it also not have a limit? I mean, is it correct to take ukemi even the nage has not applied a technique: like no touch throw...
Would it not fooling myself, my partner and the public (people outside dojo would just smile and think "the guy is like Neo (Matrix)")...and fake aikido is one of the main reason why we always discuss "is aikido effective" etc...
I would only say that there is a time and a place for everything.

NagaBaba
09-05-2006, 08:58 AM
I think every shihan (aikikai or not) developed his own ‘system’ of aikido teaching. As many of those shihans were/are direct students of O sensei, those systems are not very far away from each other, yet. So one can find a lot of similarities and it creates illusion, that we can understand teaching somebody out of our own system.

IMO it is not a case at all. I think, after 50 years of shihan’s practice, those systems became very hermetic. One of example can be Yamaguchi sensei, or Saito sensei……Similar looking exercise or technique IS used for completely different purposes in every system. If you take this exercise out of system, out of context, its meaning is lost.

The only common point is --- they all try to teach their understanding of O sensei aikido. So we can talk here only about efficiency of this particular methodology of teaching by using this or other exercise.

Now, O sensei teaching wasn’t destined to normal people. His students were advanced martial artist. Some shihans understood it and developed pedagogical approach that let us learn some valuable things. Other shihans, for some secret reasons, developed very strange pedagogy that is inaccessible for 99.9999% of aikidoka. I think Watanabe sensei and Yamaguchi sensei are some of them. So study of their system is waste of time.

As for demo, I agree with Peter A.G.
As a consequence, I expect from my attacker looking for openings during whole technique, and do counter if possible. And I don’t punish him by some kind of karate-like strikes, or imposing false authority as instructor. My technique can fail, of course, and even IF I do a demo, I’m not pretending to be better then my actual level.

NagaBaba
09-05-2006, 09:13 AM
Cooperation is very important, especially in demonstrations. But should it also not have a limit? I mean, is it correct to take ukemi even the nage has not applied a technique: like no touch throw...
Would it not fooling myself, my partner and the public (people outside dojo would just smile and think "the guy is like Neo (Matrix)")...and fake aikido is one of the main reason why we always discuss "is aikido effective" etc...
From my very limited training in Japan, I think there is VERY big difference in the spirit of practice. In Japan, aikikai teachers (Hombu included) expect uke do everything to harmonize with nage and any resistance is perceived as personal challenge. So nobody cares about efficiency of techniques.

In North America and Europe, efficiency of techniques is far more important, so instructors had to develop the methods that match spirit of local population.

wayneth
09-05-2006, 10:42 AM
There is another video on youtube about the same subject----no touch Aikido.
The man in subject is Abe Seiseki Sensei, so maybe a little bit more credible.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=BmQOueRaW-c
Wayne

markwalsh
09-05-2006, 12:44 PM
Can any Shihan do this on an uke who is not looking - IE from behind? One video clip?

If not then it´s psychology, which is an aspect of aikido sure.

Keith R Lee
09-05-2006, 01:05 PM
There is another video on youtube about the same subject----no touch Aikido.
The man in subject is Abe Seiseki Sensei, so maybe a little bit more credible.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=BmQOueRaW-c
Wayne

Or not.

Try that on anyone whose never tried Aikido and they would look at you funny and then grab you.

Ron Tisdale
09-05-2006, 01:13 PM
Yikes! Who (or what) is that talking to Abe Sensei? I'll be watching the entire clip in a second...

I can say that Abe Sensei (at 90 some years of age) climbed 4 flights of stairs and threw everyone in the room when I saw him in Iowa. Now, when I say threw...it was a cooperative environment, and he is 90 something. But man, I'd love to be in that shape at 90...

Best,
Ron

NagaBaba
09-05-2006, 04:10 PM
There is another video on youtube about the same subject----no touch Aikido.
The man in subject is Abe Seiseki Sensei, so maybe a little bit more credible.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=BmQOueRaW-c
Wayne
Is this kind of humor video (Just For Laugh)? I'm sure it can't be serious.

James Davis
09-05-2006, 04:56 PM
Can any Shihan do this on an uke who is not looking - IE from behind? One video clip?

If not then it´s psychology, which is an aspect of aikido sure.
Maybe with a really, REALLY loud kiai... :confused:

roninroshi
09-05-2006, 10:39 PM
A good Uke make's anything possible...

xuzen
09-05-2006, 10:39 PM
My question to you is; What is fake aikido?
When we train and cooperate, is that fake aikido?
Ricky,

1) When the uke is falls down because his balance was broken by tori (i.e., by principle of kuzushi); it is NOT FAKE

2) When uke submits due to pain from Kansetsu-waza (joints manipulation); it is NOT FAKE

3) When uke flinch or try to avoid an incoming ATEMI and subsequently lost his balance and fell down; it is NOT FAKE

4) When uke falls down without offering full resistant to ASSIST tori in learning a certain technique; it is NOT FAKE

5) When tori claps hand and uke does a 360 degree flip at a distance of 10 feet away from tori; it is QUESTIONABLE.

Boon.

wayneth
09-06-2006, 12:53 AM
I think that it is meant to be a comedy portrayal of Aikido. Probably why Abe Senseis student feel uncomfortable?
The Abe Sensei part I don't know about, maybe it is true.
Wayne

Gernot Hassenpflug
09-06-2006, 01:33 AM
Short comment only. Japanese television takes entertainment seriously, since it's a business, with regalia of all sorts, it's hilariously funny at times. I don't know who the viewers were going to be, but in the program Abe sensei talks about "ki", both in calligraphy and in aikido, and how they are the same thing. He demonstrates the extension of "ki" in aikido techniques. It is enough to feel to "ki", there is no need for a bodily throw to get the lesson across. As a matter of interest, he does attempt to get people to stand properly and learn how to grip with their body not their extremities. Through that connection one can then differentiate pure muscle strength from that containing the element of "ki" in addition. And no, noone is being thrown by an unknown force, the students throw themselves in accordance with the training paradigm.

wayneth
09-06-2006, 02:30 AM
Thanks Gernot, can you explain what he was doing when someone held his hand and then he held that persons other hand; Almost like Nigiri-ho. Then he transferred the power through to the other hand, or something like that.
Is this the type of thing Abe Sensei is famed for doing?
Wayne

Gernot Hassenpflug
09-06-2006, 05:23 AM
Hi Wayne, If I have the same thing in mind, here is he trying to show the other person how to hold properly, by gripping him at the same time, and stopping the breath again and again until the other person starts to do something approaching that. Abe sensei doesn't try to throw people, he tries to get them to stand, grip and stop breath in a certain manner. When he demonstrates with ukes, he is teaching them this, and they are falling in line with that entering force, not because the force is actually strong enough (at that point) to throw them bodily. I'll tell you though that I asked him about all this extension thing a number of times, and once he said there's no need to be violent, it's just the leading, but you can add your own to it at any point, and promptly dropped his hand, and me attached to it, to the ground. I didn't have time to let go completely, so I went down partly even though I was letting go already. Pretty powerful for a 90-year old guy :-) I don't know what he's famous for over where you are. He's well-known as a calligrapher (he teaches, that his profession). At his 88th birthday the aikido people were on one side of the hall, and the shodo people on the other. Abe sensei gave a speech on the podium, telling us that shodo and aikido are identical in basis, and that if the shodo people want to get some exercise, they should come to his aikido classes. Slavering as we were at the gorgeous ladies over there, we all agreed heartily :-)

davidafindlay
09-06-2006, 08:44 AM
Man, Abe sensei sounds like a dude, and a good teacher. Suspect you're pretty lucky, Gernot :)

Cheers,
Dave.

wayneth
09-06-2006, 08:58 AM
Thanks Gernot that was very informative. Still I guess we are a long way off from his level, still we can dream to be there!!
Actually I don't think I have ever heard his name being mentioned, maybe it is because I am not listening properly. But I think he is more famous for his calligraphy because didn't he teach Ueshiba Sensei?
Wayne

Ron Tisdale
09-06-2006, 09:52 AM
He taught Ueshiba Sensei caligraphy, and Ueshiba Sensei taught him aikido. I'm not much for the no touch stuff, but as Gernot said, in context, I'm sure it has it's purpose. My problem with clips like that is that context is pretty much non existent. I felt a little uncomfortable when I saw this type of thing in Iowa, but I was certainly impressed with the aikido over all, and Abe Sensei is a Mensch. ;) The teaching there did add to my physical practice.

Best,
Ron

ChrisMoses
09-06-2006, 12:12 PM
Behavioral conditioning. Yuck. :crazy:

Ron Tisdale
09-06-2006, 12:26 PM
:)

Understood...

B,
R

James Young
09-06-2006, 12:51 PM
I wouldn't get too worried or caught up with the no-touch throws in that clip. I think there are some gems in that video clip (although not in a lot of detail), particularly in the beginning about fuku-shiki kokyu (abdominal breathing) and gyaku-shiki kokyu (reverse breathing) which help with ki development as have been discussed in other recent threads here. Also some emphasis on ki power transfer and kokyu. That is the more interesting part to me.

Abe sensei doesn't try to throw people, he tries to get them to stand, grip and stop breath in a certain manner. When he demonstrates with ukes, he is teaching them this, and they are falling in line with that entering force, not because the force is actually strong enough (at that point) to throw them bodily. I'll tell you though that I asked him about all this extension thing a number of times, and once he said there's no need to be violent, it's just the leading...

After he does the no-touch throws and the comedian expresses his doubt about not touching them, Abe-sensei says something to the effect that he is just leading them. He never says anything about throwing them with invisible ki power, but he does also say that stopping fuku-shiki kokyu is important. I'll have to think about that a little more. I think that is what Gernot is referring to about stopping breath in a certain manner as quoted above.

I think if you compare the no-touch throws of Abe-sensei and Watanabe-sensei there are also some interesting differences as well. Personally I've never received or felt a no-touch throw from either Abe-sensei or Watanabe-sensei so I can't say with any authority about their effectiveness, but I think there is some underlying purpose to demonstating and/or doing it beyond just showing-off. For those who are concerned about charlatanism, Abe-sensei is also really into working with strong grips and developing effective aiki as Gernot alluded to so I think any no-touch stuff we see is only a minor part of their practice.

CitoMaramba
09-06-2006, 01:15 PM
I once attended the Saturday afternoon class at Aikikai Hombu. I had seen a video of Watanabe Sensei's demo at the 1995 All Japan Aikido Embukai, and I was intrigued, to say the least.
As stated previously by Professor Goldsbury, Watanabe Sensei's class was good, solid kihon waza, with no evidence of no-touch throws at all. Nothing but effective Aikido. It was also my first experience with having one training partner from beginning to end of the session.
An interesting postscript to this was a few days later, when I had returned to Manila, I attended a class taught by Fujimaki Sensei, who is also an instructor (albeit young) at Aikikai Hombu, who was in Manila for a short visit. When I mentioned that I had attended Watanabe Sensei's class, he said, "Ah, Saturday class. Did you see any...?" and he made some mysterious movements with his hands.
"No, Sensei," I replied, smiling. "All kihon waza".

bratzo_barrena
09-13-2006, 10:03 AM
If this demonstration is to show how flexible are Watanabe's ukes and how they fall by themselves, then Watanabe seinsei is not even necessary in the tatami. And it has nothing to do with martial arts.
If the demonstation is to show how Watanabe sensei can willingly throw a person without touching him/her, then this is just crap.
And it's even obvious around 00:01:07, when one of his ukes is kneeling and with both hands on the mat, Watanabe sensei makes a movement with the right arm that clearly is suppossed to make his uke flip over (again), but the uke doesn't flip, instead he begins to leave the tatami!!!.
Then watanabe sensei makes the same arm movement, but this time is to call in the other uke, who immediately enters.
So as Watanabe's uke didn't "respond" to his "no-touch throw", sensei then pretends he was just calling the other uke in. What a buch of crap, and a shame to Aikido.
And unfortunately aikido has this kind of 8dan

James Davis
09-13-2006, 11:35 AM
I suppose that some people would call what I've done a couple times a "no-touch throw". I call it an atemi, followed by an over-reaction by uke. When I've seen a "no-touch throw", it was usually the result ot an uke trying to bob and weave while entering quickly with an attack. I suppose that the faster they come at you, the better the chances get of a "no-touch throw" happening.

Spectators who can't tell what happened, or an experienced aikidoka who can see that nage is responsible for causing the fall to take place, might call it a throw. ;)

From what I can tell it's really just a flinch and a fall, but it looks pretty neat. :)

Call them what you want, but they exist. I've experienced them as uke and nage, with no pre-planning or coreography. It's in trying to repeat the occurence in front of an audience that things start to get silly. :rolleyes:

Don't believe in the platypus, though... not until you've actually seen one. :p

KarateCowboy
09-13-2006, 03:50 PM
I have respect to those people, and because of not have been thrown by "no touch throw", I can not say if it is fake or not. There is a clip by O'Sensei's no touch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCjySZuVDkQ

if Watanabe Sensei's no touch technique is fake, then I think he must have learnt it from O'Sensei :)

PS: at the clip of Watanabe Sensei, below at the comments, a guy wrote:
"Great Video! I met Watanabe Sensei last year in munich and I had the possibility to attack him with a Suwariwaza Shomenuchi. He threw me over the mat without even touching me- i think he didn't even move. I never heard about his amazing technique before, so I was very surprised."
and also it is written that more info can be found at:

www.kenbukai.de and interview at http://www.aiki-zen.de

Yeah guys, this is what we call Bullshido

Kim Rivers
09-19-2006, 10:29 PM
This was an interesting clip to watch, as was many of the comments everyone has submitted. for most of the clip I saw Watanabe Sensei using a lot of excellent leading and feather touch. Leading involves not just uke's body, but uke's mind. It appears Watanabe knows well how to invite uke to move freely in both mind and body. I Agree w/ several user's comments that aikido is cooperative and really the question of "fake" aikido might be a moot point. What I saw was total blending and openness between a nage and ukes and the exemplification of the common center between them. So what of the apparent no-touch throws? How can any of us really know unless we were there as uke? It could have been a bit of fun between them, a chance for uke to show some amazing athletic ability, a demonstration of "string technique" (uke reacting purposefully as if having been touched), or a powerful projection of Ki, which uke felt tangiblely. I like the idea of staying open to all the possibilities and simply enjoying the beauty of their demonstration. Passing judgement as to whether it was fake or not takes away from not only their aikido, but mine as well."Real" aikido is found in each moment of practice between uke and nage. Everything else is just speculation.
Enjoying the journey,
Kim

happysod
09-20-2006, 02:48 AM
Passing judgement as to whether it was fake or not takes away from not only their aikido, but mine as well Totally disagree, your aikido, their aikido, anyone elses aikido does not affect mine at all unless they're teaching me. Even posting strange videos of esoteric moves with no obvious practical application or validity doesn't phase me.

I always find the idea that nasty words on the internet can cause baby-aikido to cry to be one of the most ludicrous reasons to decry criticism. Robust discussion and healthy cynicism is a much better way to go than meek acceptance and respectful compliance - if a so-called martial art can't even take harsh words, what bloody use is it...

{and just in case you think I'm just an anti-aikido bully, I'd like to point out that I am in fact a card carrying fluffy aiki-bunny from a Ki society}

Kim Rivers
09-22-2006, 12:12 PM
Totally disagree, your aikido, their aikido, anyone elses aikido does not affect mine at all unless they're teaching me. Even posting strange videos of esoteric moves with no obvious practical application or validity doesn't phase me.

I always find the idea that nasty words on the internet can cause baby-aikido to cry to be one of the most ludicrous reasons to decry criticism. Robust discussion and healthy cynicism is a much better way to go than meek acceptance and respectful compliance - if a so-called martial art can't even take harsh words, what bloody use is it...

{and just in case you think I'm just an anti-aikido bully, I'd like to point out that I am in fact a card carrying fluffy aiki-bunny from a Ki society}

Hmm perhaps I might clarify my statement. When I say it affects my aikdo what I mean is when I begin to judge someone else's aikido then I close the door to possibility and it then does affect my aikido because now my heart and mind has closed, then I am less teachable. I am all for robust discussion. Criticism is what it is and it's up to each person to take it in or not and then what to do w/ it. Like everyone else here I recognize that anything I write is my opinion and I would not exoect it to be taken as anything more. I don't know if you are a bully, but likely not, but now we all know you are a fluffy aiki-bunny :p So great that you put out your disagreement and criticisms. As will I when it suits me. I'm hardly a meek aiki-baby, but do have a bit of fluffy bunny in me as well (that might be a great icon for messages!). Thanks for your robust discussion and opinion.-Kim

Edwin Neal
09-22-2006, 04:41 PM
horrible 'demonstration'... this was trashed several months ago on another forum and is one reason aikido is not taken seriously... i believe in and have done 'no touch' throws as uke and nage, but this is too 'faked' or scripted... it is a poor representation of aikido... i have seen high ranking elderly aikidoka who demonstrated 'elegantly' but did not have a trained uke who flipped for nothing or for clapping!!!... seems to me indicative of a kind of decadence of the aikido community that such 'demonstrations' are fairly common and never 'challenged'... respect for senior aikidoka, but not without healthy scepticism of something like this... from about the 50 sec mark until 1 min... it is clearly uke (second one) being too cooperative... while the blending and leading are notewothy there is virtually no seigyo or control of uke demonstrated... TRUTH is more important than IMAGE... this seems to only demonstrate an image that has very little truth to it... just my opinion... :sorry:

Infantryman1990
10-06-2006, 09:01 PM
It was a demonstration.

You can see that uke is coming in WANTING to take ukemi.

Laughter follows (if you turn up the volume).

Take it at face value and move on.

Gernot Hassenpflug
10-06-2006, 10:49 PM
TRUTH is more important than IMAGE
Crap, that doesn't even hold water in the West, let alone in the East. If you think about it, you'll find there is no answer that you or I can come up with that can challenge reality, namely, that which exists (like this video).

Adam Huss
10-08-2006, 01:26 PM
Boy is that ever neat.