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Old 10-14-2016, 11:59 AM   #1
jurasketu
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Verbal Aikido Mentioned in Article

NY Times article about confronting offensive speech.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/13/sc...tionfront&_r=0

What do folks think about the term "Verbal Aikido" - does that even make sense?

If it makes sense, what does "verbal Aikido" look like? Would regular Aikido Training even help with that?

All paths lead to death. I strongly recommend taking one of the scenic routes.
AWA - Nidan - Started Aikido training in 2008
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Old 10-14-2016, 04:00 PM   #2
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Verbal Aikido Mentioned in Article

Quote:
Robin Johnson wrote: View Post
NY Times article about confronting offensive speech.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/13/sc...tionfront&_r=0

What do folks think about the term "Verbal Aikido" - does that even make sense?

If it makes sense, what does "verbal Aikido" look like? Would regular Aikido Training even help with that?
Sounds like communist-era 'getting the population to police each other' in political correctness. There will always be people that say/do bad things - the world will never be perfect and if you think it has to be you will never be happy. Still, we should all do our bit not to add to the mess.

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Old 10-14-2016, 11:01 PM   #3
rugwithlegs
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Re: Verbal Aikido Mentioned in Article

Kano Jigoro was a very effective debater, and when he was working towards Japan getting the Olympics in the 40s, his debate style was called Verbal Judo in his autobiography. "Aikido In Everyday Life: Giving In To Get Your Way" is a book using Aikido imagery to label tactical conversation ideas. Terry Dobson was the author. My wife took issue with him openly adopting strategies like lying when you deem it expedient or necessary. The article seems to talk about verbal aikido in that vein.

Morihei Ueshiba was known for his kiai; I doubt anyone is advocating kiai to help with uncomfortable conversations.
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Old 10-15-2016, 12:49 AM   #4
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Re: Verbal Aikido Mentioned in Article

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John Hillson wrote: View Post
Kano Jigoro was a very effective debater, and when he was working towards Japan getting the Olympics in the 40s, his debate style was called Verbal Judo in his autobiography.
As far as I know, Kano never wanted Judo to be an Olympic sport, much in the same way that Aikido is usually not seen as a competitive sport (except the Shodokan style).

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Old 10-15-2016, 01:50 PM   #5
rugwithlegs
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Re: Verbal Aikido Mentioned in Article

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Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
As far as I know, Kano never wanted Judo to be an Olympic sport, much in the same way that Aikido is usually not seen as a competitive sport (except the Shodokan style).
True. The Japanese government turned to him when they were invited to the Olympics in 1912. He was the first Asian member of the IOC. The first Japanese team to the Olympics consisted of only two track and field runners. He would intermittently continue to be involved with the IOC and campaigned vigorously for Tokyo to host the 1940 Olympics as he believed this might avert WWII. Within two months of his death, the Tokyo Olympics were cancelled.

From The Way Of Judo: a portrait of Kano Jigoro and his students:

"Interestingly, Kano did not lobby for judo to be included in the 1940 Tokyo games. On the contrary, he was reluctant to have judo put on the program because "judo is not a sport. It is an art. It is a science. It is a way of life." Kano believed that inclusion of judo in the Olympics would alter its character as a vehicle to bring people together. National judo organizations would fiercely compete among themselves to win a medal "at any cost and by any means." That is not the purpose of judo. Kano was open to the idea of judo's inclusion in the games if other countries were in favor, but he did not push it."

Elsewhere in the same biography, they do refer to his time as an educator and as a government representative, calling his debate style "verbal Judo." Whether or not he referred to that himself I don't know. I don't have the exact quote in front of me.
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Old 10-15-2016, 02:48 PM   #6
jurasketu
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Re: Verbal Aikido Mentioned in Article

Thanks John/Rupert - I have unexpectedly learned something about Kano Jigoro. I really should read more about him. He seems to be a fascinating person. Can someone recommend a good book about him?

All paths lead to death. I strongly recommend taking one of the scenic routes.
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Old 10-15-2016, 03:45 PM   #7
rugwithlegs
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Re: Verbal Aikido Mentioned in Article

The Way Of Judo: a portrait of Kano Jigoro and his students

Recommended to me, and I was very impressed with Kano's life. Many ideas that were attributed to O Sensei I think may have started with him. Kano was a very prolific author and his book Mind Over Muscle is something I am reading now. Kodokan Judo by Kano was very enlightening for me as a non-Judo student - I had a few misconceptions about his art.

But also check out the book, Giving in To Get Your Way if you are interested in Aikido strategies as communication techniques. Terry Dobson doesn't speak for all Aikido schools in this, but I enjoyed reading this.
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Old 10-15-2016, 10:33 PM   #8
jurasketu
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Re: Verbal Aikido Mentioned in Article

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
The Way Of Judo: a portrait of Kano Jigoro and his students

Recommended to me, and I was very impressed with Kano's life. Many ideas that were attributed to O Sensei I think may have started with him. Kano was a very prolific author and his book Mind Over Muscle is something I am reading now. Kodokan Judo by Kano was very enlightening for me as a non-Judo student - I had a few misconceptions about his art.

But also check out the book, Giving in To Get Your Way if you are interested in Aikido strategies as communication techniques. Terry Dobson doesn't speak for all Aikido schools in this, but I enjoyed reading this.
Thanks John!

All paths lead to death. I strongly recommend taking one of the scenic routes.
AWA - Nidan - Started Aikido training in 2008
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Old 10-17-2016, 09:16 AM   #9
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Re: Verbal Aikido Mentioned in Article

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Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
Sounds like communist-era 'getting the population to police each other' in political correctness. There will always be people that say/do bad things - the world will never be perfect and if you think it has to be you will never be happy. Still, we should all do our bit not to add to the mess.
I find your reaction, particularly the first sentence, confusing. Are you not aware of the content of the conversation in question? Do you consider it "political correctness" to seek ways other than unqualified acceptance to deal with someone who is bragging about sexual assault? If you were in a conversation with another man, and he told you that when as a celebrity, you can "grab them by the pussy", what would your response be?
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Old 10-17-2016, 07:44 PM   #10
Janet Rosen
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Re: Verbal Aikido Mentioned in Article

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Morihei Ueshiba was known for his kiai; I doubt anyone is advocating kiai to help with uncomfortable conversations.
Oh, I dunno, John, I think at times a mighty roar is EXACTLY what's called for

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Old 10-17-2016, 07:47 PM   #11
Janet Rosen
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Re: Verbal Aikido Mentioned in Article

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
Sounds like communist-era 'getting the population to police each other' in political correctness. There will always be people that say/do bad things - the world will never be perfect and if you think it has to be you will never be happy. Still, we should all do our bit not to add to the mess.
Rupert, I don't know how or why you jump to this. It has NOTHING to do with a decades-long series of books as per those above and others on communication that fosters discussion rather than shutting it down.
How do you respond to a parent's chronic passive-aggressive whining without continuing the pattern? How do you respond to a boss's bullying tactics of overgeneralizing and changing the terms of the discussion without either caving in, escalating, or seeking another job?
Do you really think there is nothing to be learned from aikido that applies off the mat?

Janet Rosen
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Old 10-17-2016, 07:49 PM   #12
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Re: Verbal Aikido Mentioned in Article

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
Kano Jigoro was a very effective debater, and when he was working towards Japan getting the Olympics in the 40s, his debate style was called Verbal Judo in his autobiography. "Aikido In Everyday Life: Giving In To Get Your Way" is a book using Aikido imagery to label tactical conversation ideas. Terry Dobson was the author. My wife took issue with him openly adopting strategies like lying when you deem it expedient or necessary. The article seems to talk about verbal aikido in that vein.

Morihei Ueshiba was known for his kiai; I doubt anyone is advocating kiai to help with uncomfortable conversations.
To which I add: The Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense by Suzette Haden Elgin , 1980

Janet Rosen
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Old 10-20-2016, 01:01 PM   #13
rugwithlegs
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Re: Verbal Aikido Mentioned in Article

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Oh, I dunno, John, I think at times a mighty roar is EXACTLY what's called for
Actually yeah. "Sometimes the Art of Peace resounds like thunder, jolting human beings out of their stupidity". O Sensei.
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Old 10-22-2016, 11:48 PM   #14
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Re: Verbal Aikido Mentioned in Article

Quote:
Robin Johnson wrote: View Post
NY Times article about confronting offensive speech.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/13/sc...tionfront&_r=0

What do folks think about the term "Verbal Aikido" - does that even make sense?

If it makes sense, what does "verbal Aikido" look like? Would regular Aikido Training even help with that?
In my opinion "verbal Aikido" is a contradiction in terms and it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Aikido is a Martial Art (at least when practiced as such) and a martial artist is a warrior. Being a warrior has nothing to do with talking your way out of a bad situation. It's about fighting your way out of a bad situation that couldn't be avoided.
Many times I have heard people talking about verbally de-escalating a would be fight but if it can be verbally solved you could have avoided being there in the first place, it sounds more of a brawl than real self defense.
Blah blah blah, has nothing to do with Aikido or Aikido training. You use Aikido when your life is in danger so by then it's too late to talk,you need to act! Never talk to your attacker! While you are trying to put, what you feel it is, some sense into him, he may be too busy sticking a knife in your chest. So don't waste your energy on a good dialog, it won't work. Just focus, empty your mind, do not pay any attention to what he may be saying (words don't kill) and at the right moment act!
Once he is on the ground, disarmed, pinned or whatever, then you can talk but even then I wouldn't waste my breath. Landed flat on his ass by a, let's say Kote gaeshi, hurt and bleeding by a, let's say, passing atemi on his nose is all the lecture he'll ever need and the only one he will never forget...
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Old 10-23-2016, 01:17 AM   #15
Janet Rosen
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Re: Verbal Aikido Mentioned in Article

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Yannis Mousoulis wrote: View Post
In my opinion "verbal Aikido" is a contradiction in terms and it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. ...
Many times I have heard people talking about verbally de-escalating a would be fight but if it can be verbally solved you could have avoided being there in the first place, it sounds more of a brawl than real self defense.
I have never been in a brawl. I think of brawls as something drunk dummies in bars engage in.

"If it could be verbally solved you could have avoided being there...." is simply Not True:

I have been present when a knife was pulled on a truly stupid coworker by a pissed of junkie, and I verbally de-escalated the situation and did not need to do anything physical although yes I was ready if it were necessary.

I have had distraught or raging or mentally ill relatives of patients who could have become a threat if not handled with a combination of calmness and reassurance and implacability; I have been able to verbally/paraverbally de-escalate them. Would you rather I had thrown them to the ground? How would that have been a better outcome than applying the principles of aikido in a different way?

I don't consider myself a warrior. Just a woman living in the real world.

Janet Rosen
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Old 10-23-2016, 07:04 AM   #16
rugwithlegs
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Re: Verbal Aikido Mentioned in Article

I agree with Janet. Self defence is a very restricted concept compared to martial arts. When I worked corrections, we were taught to be using a calm voice and rational arguements to defuse anger, at the same time as controlling the environment and the inmate. This was also at least given lip service in PART and other courses for health care workers where controlling violence and not escalating it nor responding excessively was a professional responsibility. You need to breathe anyway; why not use it to talk? Calling for help, or verbal de-escalation, or intimidation or whatever. There is a force continuum for most agencies and lethal violence is used when initial options have failed.

As my own association is about trying for peaceful resolution, I wish we didn't ignore this aspect of training. I don't know that is is expressly Aikido, but verbal deescalation is not contradictory. It's not hard to talk and do a nikyo pin at the same time.
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