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Old 03-20-2006, 12:56 PM   #101
Adam Alexander
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Noela Bingham wrote:
I know several students who are flexible enough to *unpin * themselves from the shiho nage lock has any one found an answer to this other than atemi
Proper form.
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Old 03-20-2006, 04:19 PM   #102
eyrie
 
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Well, what IS proper form?

Ignatius
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Old 03-20-2006, 04:25 PM   #103
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Well, what IS proper form?

I'd assume that the poster is referring to the position just prior to taking down uke. In that case, I'd assume that the issue has to do with being to high--relative to uke's shoulder-- and not having uke extended far enough.

If it's on the ground, find the point of pain and make sure uke knows you have it when they wriggle.
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Old 03-20-2006, 04:31 PM   #104
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Re: final lock doesn't work

I understood the poster to be talking about "when on the ground." On that note, I'm with others here - pain compliance is not reliable in the real world. Additionally, no one taps in the real world - which is a big problem in and of itself if you are used to relying on taps and/or other types of willful submission signals. And this brings us to what pain compliance is - it is not a pin - even when it works. It is not a matter of you pinning a person; it is a matter of the person being willing to lay down themselves. That's a whole other topic - in my opinion.

David M. Valadez
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Old 03-20-2006, 04:41 PM   #105
Adam Alexander
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Re: final lock doesn't work

I think the kind of pain that can be generated by our methods is so severe and cuts so deep, a person instinctively cooperates because you've never known anything like it combined with the choice to avoid it.

I don't know for sure. But, I don't think too many people experience that sort of pain in the dojo.
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Old 03-20-2006, 04:51 PM   #106
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Well, the principle of unpinning oneself by moving other centers so as to free up the originally controlled center still applies in some pain compliance maneuvers - especially in shiho shoulder (usual) final pin. This is said on top of a whole lot of other factors that make pain, and reaction to pain, far less universal than one would thing in the real world. For example, if you are tweaking my shoulder, you may cause pain at the shoulder (like one poster said earlier), but the rest of my body can move, and with that allowance, I will move in such a way that the pain at my shoulder ceases to have any say, consciously or unconsciously, in whether or not I will lie down for you.

My advice, if pain is present, good for you. However, it is best considered an added benefit of control; it is not control. Control must be located totally outside of this psychological luxury. Pain is icing - it's not the cake.

David M. Valadez
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Old 03-20-2006, 05:20 PM   #107
Michael Douglas
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Re: final lock doesn't work

David's earlier post continuing from : "When you see someone being pinned from one corner of their body, I would propose, you are viewing, at best, an unconscious application of a training culture ... ..." is in my opinion excellent, and touches on some enlightening observations.
I think everyone should study this, whether they agree or not.
Personally, I agree totally.

And the shihonage pin to me seems to be a transient position from which to
injure or strike the victim, therefore not to be worried about if it doesn't hold
for long.
It is a position which follows from the shihonage throw, and for that reason
has to be used, but to transfer to a better face-down pin would seem a priority.
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Old 03-20-2006, 06:10 PM   #108
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Re: final lock doesn't work

I think initially, in the early development stages, some pain is unavoidable and to be expected. As uke and nage develop and become more "connected" within themselves and with each other, it is possible to lock and "float" uke throughout the entire movement in shiho nage, without pain.

Like David, I assumed Noela was referring to uke escaping from the pin when on the ground. Whilst "correct form" is important, there are several key factors involved.

1. the positional relationship between nage and uke on the ground
2. the juxtaposition of uke's wrist, elbow and shoulder
3. pinning the wrist to the ground (in a yonkyo hold)
4. pinning the whole body (all those centers) thru the wrist

At a more advanced level, the use of the radial and ulna nerve points to effect the internal structural connections for kuzushi, lock and pin can be quite entertaining. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

Ignatius
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Old 03-20-2006, 07:23 PM   #109
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Yes,I'm with Michael in how to understand that final "pin" in shiho-nage (what Ignatius is calling a Yonkyo pin) - better to take the opponent over into a prone position (face down), etc. If you want to keep someone on their back - for striking, etc. - a better pin than the yonkyo pin, in my opinion, is the switching of the hands such that the "yonkyo" hand becomes the striking hand (or whatever) and the other hand presses down on the opponent's elbow (trapping the forearm underneath). While not a totally capturing of all the relative centers, this trap does capture more centers than the standard yonkyo pin.

David M. Valadez
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Old 03-20-2006, 07:58 PM   #110
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Well, if it's done with the correct "feeling", uke should feel as if their whole body is immobilized. If by some chance you lose that "connection", and uke slips out of pin, there are many jujitsu-type counters to re-pin uke and maintain restraining control. The "kimura" is one possibility.

In any case, one should NEVER switch hands in the middle of a pin without maintaining some form of controlling restraint on uke.

I think some focus on the finer "technicalities" is essential, but too much focus on the actual technicalities, to the detriment of that "aiki feeling", detracts from the practice of aikido.

Ignatius
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Old 03-20-2006, 08:15 PM   #111
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Well that's the part that has the debate going on now: "uke should feel as if their whole body is immobilized." Some are saying yes to this, some are saying no way. I'm of the "no way" camp.

Sure, it would be nice; sure a lot of aikidoka feel totally immobilized; sure higher skills allow for greater understandings; etc., but, in my opinion, none of this makes it true that you can pin all of the relative centers from one or a few centers when motion has stopped. If a person is feeling totally immobilized from the yonkyo pin in Shiho nage or the elbow pin in Ikkyo (where you late the arm on the mat at an angle out from the body) then, in my opinion, you are not looking at a greatness of skill in the nage but the presence of a great ignorance on the part of the uke.

To keep things clear: The hand switch I was referring to is not a matter of going from one hand to no hands to the other hand. The switch is more of a replacement - using the yonkyo pin to gain some control, placing the elbow/forearm pin to gain more control, and then removing the yonkyo pin and striking (etc.) with it. At no time are you out of control of the opponent's arm.

Here's some tape of that pin and its transition. This video is part of another thread on how to check the cross-lateral side of uke's body in shiho nage hanmi-handachi, so it doesn't really have any close ups of this pin and the transition. But it's not an novel pin or anything like that - it's in a lot of styles and even in a lot of Aikido dojo, etc. - so I imagine one can see it even if it is not being focused upon in the video. In other words, I imagine it is familiar enough to see it from what is shown:

http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/v...shihonage.html

Last edited by senshincenter : 03-20-2006 at 08:23 PM.

David M. Valadez
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Old 03-20-2006, 08:38 PM   #112
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Re: final lock doesn't work

He he.... sounds like a session of "laying of the hands" and "some o that lovin' feelin" is in order...

Ignatius
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Old 03-21-2006, 01:01 AM   #113
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Re: final lock doesn't work

In simplistic terms, stretch uke. When pinning, you just need to figure out where to and how to stretch, and maintain the stretch.

rgds
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Old 03-21-2006, 02:13 AM   #114
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Re: final lock doesn't work

I wonder if last nights teacher had read his thread because we were working on pins. The common experience with the shihonage pin last night seemed to be that, pinning not only the wrist to the ground but also the elbow, made it more difficult, but not totally impossible for uke to roll out of the pin. But rolling out of the pin didn't leave uke in any kind of advantageous position if tori kept the hold on uke's wrist. Basically you ended up in a nice set up for another shihonage or kotegaeshi or throws of that direction.

kvaak
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Old 03-21-2006, 02:44 AM   #115
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Re: final lock doesn't work

As usual, I'm sure I'm being thick here, but how long are people expecting to being hold a pin on for and is the pin being assumed to be the final point? I always thought the pin was at best an interim point for greater control prior to either causing more permanent damage or the dojo catch and release.
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Old 03-21-2006, 02:45 AM   #116
eyrie
 
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Pinning the wrist and pressing on the elbow with the other hand seems to be common way to immobilize uke. But that only has the effect of isolating the wrist, elbow and shoulder to some extent, leaving uke with the ability to move the rest of their body and wriggle out of the pin. The elbow compression also causes some pain and discomfort for uke if they attempt to struggle.

There is a way to pin the wrist without applying yonkyo, without the elbow compression, and using kokyu "extension" to control the whole body. It is hard to describe this in words, but it can be demonstrated through feel.

BTW, I've seen versions of shihonage which involve a knife hand strike to the throat as uke is going down, and others which involve dislocating the shoulder as uke drops under their own weight, obviating any need for a subsequent pin, so the point about pinning from shihonage is somewhat moot, since by definition, shihonage is a throw - not a pin or immobilization control.

FWIW

Ignatius
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Old 03-21-2006, 06:37 AM   #117
creinig
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Just a few of my experiences on that matter:

When Sensei pins me after shihonage (The Yoshinkan kihon version), I'm on my toes while lying on my back, frantically trying to get even higher. So I'm, um, at the same time lying on my back, pinned, stretched out and off balance. Oh, and it hurts
The key to that definitely seems to be proper movement while bringing uke down -- once on the ground you have to already be in the pin. Retrofitting it later won't work on an uncompliant uke.

When Sensei (or any experienced student) pins me after kotegaeshi, both my shoulders are effectively nailed to the ground and my throat is pressed to the ground, making it impossible for me to breathe.

With nikajo / sankajo pins it's similar, except that there's typically more airflow but also more shoulder pain.

I'm sure I could get out of any of these pins, but definitely only with a broken arm/shoulder.

The ikajo pin (even the one-handed version) can also be made to work really well, but given time (and lack of threats) uke can almost always wiggle out of it (at least for the basic version)...
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Old 03-21-2006, 08:00 AM   #118
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Re: final lock doesn't work

The shiho pin in my mind needs uke's hips to be off the mat/floor/ground to be effective. Notice in David's clips that uke's hips are almost always clear of the mat. Without that base (of the hips) for power, struggling becomes ineffective. The yonkyo grip is certainly one way to achieve this, but as has been noted, you really want to limit your reliance on pain compliance for control outside of a dojo context. There seems to be a few things that can get uke's hips off the mat, some of which rely on pain compliance, some not as much:

1) yonkyo grip
2) keep uke's elbow absolutely pinned to the mat, this gives better control of the shoulder than thinking of pinning the wrist
3) use your inside knee to pin uke's elbow to the mat, so that your whole body weight is pinning that "corner"

In the end, as long as uke's hips are off the mat, they are in a really bad position. Consider also that outside the dojo context, it is like that uke will have a concussion from being thrown to the pin from their head bouncing. As to shiho being a throw, not a pin, it is taught as both in many many styles of aikido.

Best,
Ron

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Old 03-21-2006, 09:58 AM   #119
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Christian Reiniger wrote:
When Sensei (or any experienced student) pins me after kotegaeshi, both my shoulders are effectively nailed to the ground and my throat is pressed to the ground, making it impossible for me to breathe.
What is this pin like? Can you describe and/or show some pictures or video of it? I'm wondering how both shoulders are being controlled by Nage directly (vs. being controlled passively via Uke's action and/or non-action). I've seen the latter; never seen the former come out of any kihon waza version of this technique. Hence, curious.

On the other question: When I am referring to an Uke being able to move his/her other centers, I am referring to an immediate capacity. Hence, I'm not expecting a pin to hold for forever here, or even a relatively short time (e.g. time enough to get a pair of cuffs on). What I am describing is not someone wiggling and wiggling until they are out of pin - like Houdini did out of straight-jacket. I'm pointing out that Aikido's kihon waza pins - for good reasons - do not control all or even the relevant majority of centers; such that they would seem to spark threads like this for a person looking to pin someone once and for all with these types of architectures (as is).

Let's also point out that moving these centers (under pressure, under pain, etc.) is a skill. Not everyone is going to be able to do that. Additionally, probably most folks in the street won't be able to do that or won't want to do that past the pain and/or torque that one may be feeling on the one or few centers that are being directly controlled. In some kihon waza pins, moving the remaining centers to free up the controlled centers (and/or to relieve both pain and the chance for dislocation/fracture) is a relatively easy matter (i.e. requires less skill). An example of this would be Ikkyo. Some pins will require higher skills at moving one's centers (e.g. Nikyo); others will require an even greater level of skill (e.g. the elbow pin variation of Shiho Nage). If pain is involved, which which is more psychological than the less-experienced of us might imagine, or if the inability to move because pain is involved, which is all psychological, then you are going to have to be even more skilled at moving your remaining centers. That said, I do not think it wise to rely too much on what we individually experienced either as nage or uke. It is better, in my opinion, after a certain level of experience has been obtained, to approach these kinds of topics as pure mechanical matters. I think this is more important if we are someone that still winces in pain at Nikyo's or Yonkyo's controlling points, makes faces during ukemi or during weapons work, and taps out urgently to be released from rokkyo, gokyo, yonkyo, sankyo, nikyo, kote-gaeshi, etc. In other words, if you still have not built up a certain level of pain tolerance, flexibility, a capacity for calmness, etc., you are not going to be the best judge of what works or does not work - since just about anything is going to work on you.

From a biomechanical perspective, it might be advantageous to ask, "How do I control a chain laying on the ground by controlling one or a few links?" Then note how much of the chain you can move, such that you change the relationship between the links that are moved and the link(s) that you are controlling. Then note how many new relationships you can form between these two sets of links (the links you are controlling and the links you are not). This is the basic issue at work in moving centers while pinned. The idea then is to capture as many centers as are relative to making the remaining un-captured centers tactically irrelevant in how many new relationships they can form with the controlled centers. In my experience, when the person is face down, this will mean that you must capture both arms, the head, and the hips. When they are face up, you must capture both arms, the head, the hips, and the feet.

thanks,
dmv

David M. Valadez
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Old 03-21-2006, 10:38 AM   #120
creinig
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
What is this pin like? Can you describe and/or show some pictures or video of it? I'm wondering how both shoulders are being controlled by Nage directly (vs. being controlled passively via Uke's action and/or non-action). I've seen the latter; never seen the former come out of any kihon waza version of this technique. Hence, curious.
Pictures can be found in the standard Yoshinkan literature (most importantly Total Aikido). I don't think I have any of them lying around, so I'll try a description:

As Uke: Lie face down on the mat, both arms pointing to your feet. Then raise your right arm until it points straight up. Have your (right hand) fingers point toward your left side, palm down.

As Sh'te: Stand in a deep forward stance, right (bent) knee close to Uke's right elbow, left foot at his legs. Grab his right hand with your left in a kotegaeshi grip and softly "grip" his right elbow with your right hand, fingers down. Then drop your weight, transferring it through your right (!) hand to uke, primarily downward, but also a bit inward to keep his elbow locked. Your right hand should actually start at his elbow and slightly slide down to just below it.

You might have to experiment a bit with the angle of uke's arm (relative to the ground, both upward and slightly "inward" until both shoulders are really locked) and the direction of your weight dropping.

If you want, you can also use your front knee to keep his elbow locked. That sometimes feels a bit more comfortable and natural to me (as Sh'te only of course ).

Do *not* put your foot under uke's shoulder -- you want to drive it straight through the mat

I hope that was somehow understandable . And maybe someone with a better understanding of the lock can provide a better description...
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Old 03-21-2006, 11:00 AM   #121
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Okay, i've seen, done, and experienced this pin. Thanks for the description - it was very good. Just never had it affect my breathing, etc. I wonder if as uke you tried scooting forward while on the ground? Combining this movement (even half an inch) with whatever you can get out of the left shoulder/arm does a lot to free up the hips and thus the legs, which does a lot to make the pin cease in its pinning, breaking, and pain generating functions. Remember, the shoulder and elbow control of this pin works because Uke's body is being stilled by friction with the ground. Once that friction is compromised, the angles controlling the shoulder control and the elbow control cease to function - then the left shoulder becomes more free, the hips and legs/knees become more free, and controlling the right arm/shoulder from the original position becomes impossible.

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Old 03-21-2006, 11:09 AM   #122
creinig
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
Okay, i've seen, done, and experienced this pin. Thanks for the description - it was very good. Just never had it affect my breathing, etc.
Well, it might depend on your chest musculature etc. It certainly doesn't affect the breathing of women

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
I wonder if as uke you tried scooting forward while on the ground? Combining this movement (even half an inch) with whatever you can get out of the left shoulder/arm does a lot to free up the hips and thus the legs, which does a lot to make the pin cease in its pinning, breaking, and pain generating functions.
Sounds like a good idea. I'm just usually quite, erm, busy slapping when that pin is applied to me (and I know how easy it is to make it even nastier if uke doesn't yield)..
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Old 03-21-2006, 11:23 AM   #123
Ron Tisdale
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
and I know how easy it is to make it even nastier if uke doesn't yield)..
Well, that's one of the problems with working some of the escapes and counters to escapes in class. I find these things are best worked with a few close partners after class or outside of the dojo all together. Otherwise, misunderstanding can occur, as well as injuries.

We all have to go to work the next day...

Best,
Ron (well, most of us anyway...)

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