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Old 03-17-2006, 02:25 PM   #76
Ron Tisdale
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Well, to be more concrete:

Quote:
1. Pain compliance does not really work on someone who is committed to harming someone.
True

Quote:
2. Pain compliance does not really work on someone who is on drugs and can not feel what is being done to them, or is on alcohol, and reaction times being slower they get injured while they are trying to de-escalate the situation.
True

Quote:
3. Pain is not required or needed, nor is it even the goal of aikido. Since the antithesis can be achieved as a way of neutralizing the strength and speed one-ups man-ship contests that often are passed off as aikido, it is actually the desired methodology
I have some small resevations with this statement, but I think it is generally true.

Quote:
4. (most importantly) that joints actually work in two ways - they can be locked and unlocked. The natural state of the joint is unlocked. This is so we have the flexibility to do things. If we did not have any joints you might imagine how difficult life would be. This also means that the natural order is for an attacker to lock them (i.e. when making a fist, or avoiding nage's lock) where by the next natural action would be to once again unlock them.
I'm in some new territory here...need to try to work with this idea, and think about it. You can probably guess the rest of my thoughts from there. But I am seriously intrigued.

I like posts that take me into new territory!

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 03-17-2006, 02:55 PM   #77
Michael Douglas
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Shaun wrote "Aiki is in itself a grounded state where time equals both zero and infinity. I am not talking about metaphysics, cosmologies or metaphors."

Well, this sounds like metaphysical cosmological and
metaphorical nonesense.
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Old 03-17-2006, 04:40 PM   #78
Lyle Bogin
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Re: final lock doesn't work

I sometimes like to study chin na or hapkido and I have noticed a willingness to accept the fact that locks are usually temporary in practitioners of those arts. Often they are combined with strikes and breaks of course (what Imaizumi Senei may point out as "old style"). If it hasn't been mentioned in a while, Tim Cartmell's work in that area is excellent...including his videos and two important manuals he translated from Chinese.

How long does one have to go before we can say that we've really got the hold? 10 sec? 15 min for the cops to show up? A good hold is great but I think that the ideal of the unescapable, never breakable pin is best studied as an ideal.
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Old 03-17-2006, 06:12 PM   #79
ChrisHein
 
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Shaun,
I don't think I said anything about "pain compliance", I also don't believe pain compliance is a viable option in a serious matter. I believe the pins are mechanical yes, but they are not dependent on pain, just functionality. If your arm doesn't work (because it's broken or dislocated) you will not be able to use it, weather it hurts or not.

I believe the principle of Jiu is inherent in the system we practice today as Aikido. While it may have been the founders intention later in his life to dedicate the practice only to the study of Aiki, many of it's original elements still exist, and as it is practiced today, many mistake jiu for Aiki, but yes they are two different a distinct principals.

Long and complicated explanations of Aiki can lose even the most astute student. Aiki is: your chosen relation to another's actions and intentions. It could simply be called Attention and rhythm. This is the basic of what Aiki is, understanding this is the first step in understanding Aiki, beyond that it is best experienced.

When I said "neat stuff" i wasn't talking about cool moves, and sweet techniques. I meant I learned what a fight was, what a martial art is, and what I am doing in regards to both of these.

In my earlier post, I was cutting to the chase, I don't like reading long and self indulgent posts, so I figure others don't either.

-Chris Hein
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Old 03-17-2006, 06:27 PM   #80
eyrie
 
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Wow... go to sleep and a flurry of activity occurs....

Great posts Shaun (esp. #73) ! But I think I lost you on the time/space relativity thing... (Time to brush up on Quantum Physics?)

Sorry, Chris... what I should have said is:
Quote:
...it's really locking (or pinning) their "center" through the anatomical structures that's the real "key"
As Shaun explained... there are many centers. From a simple mechanical perspective, when you move the point of the fulcrum and/or change the length of the lever, the center moves. But we're not doing jujitsu, although understanding how it works in jujitsu can be helpful.

The difference in pinning someone using aiki and plain old jujitsu is the "quality" (for want of a better word?) of the pin. As Shaun mentioned, it's not primarily pain compliance, but being pinned in such a way that uke finds it hard to move/struggle because it feels like they're stuck - not because there is pain centered on the joint(s) which is(are) being pinned/locked. It's the same reason how you can "pin" someone with one finger on the elbow and knee, and they can't go anywhere or get up.

As Shaun mentioned, joints can be opened/closed, or locked/unlocked. You can "lock" a person from their fingers to the toes (yubitori-waza is a good way to feel how this works - without the jujitsu type pain compliance). It gets really interesting when you "open" uke's joints and establish a path to their center, and they don't know what the heck you're doing and why they can't do any thing. And if uke closes a joint off (as in "resist"), the anticipated center of the movement changes. The aim of aikido is to establish harmony (whatever that means?), opening that which is closed, closing that which is opened, to establish a path to uke's "heart" and create movement from the center (any number of the multitude of centers or center of the center). Sometimes you have to unblock what is blocked, or fill what is empty, or empty that which is filled.

It requires a distinctly different spiritual mindset to find the "blockages" in uke's structure. To this end, tori is merely a vehicle for uke to experience "opening" and "closing". Very, very different to jujitsu...

Hmmm.... pins and locks as misogi? But I'm getting ahead of myself.... and I think we lost Darren along the way back there.

Ignatius
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Old 03-17-2006, 06:38 PM   #81
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:

As Shaun mentioned, joints can be opened/closed, or locked/unlocked. You can "lock" a person from their fingers to the toes (yubitori-waza is a good way to feel how this works - without the jujitsu type pain compliance). It gets really interesting when you "open" uke's joints and establish a path to their center, and they don't know what the heck you're doing and why they can't do any thing. And if uke closes a joint off (as in "resist"), the anticipated center of the movement changes.
What you are referring to hear is the principal of jiu, and has nothing to do with the principal of Aiki.

The principal of Jiu has nothing to do with pain. Jiu is the ability to move your body around force, to take no more force then you can comfortably manage and to redirect the force in a new way. Physical out reaching, feeling inside of someone's body via mechanical connection is part of Jiu.

-Chris Hein
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Old 03-17-2006, 06:55 PM   #82
eyrie
 
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Re: final lock doesn't work

And in your opinion, what is aiki? And how is that different to jiu [sic]?

Ignatius
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Old 03-17-2006, 07:10 PM   #83
ChrisHein
 
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
Jiu is the ability to move your body around force, to take no more force then you can comfortably manage and to redirect the force in a new way.
-Chris Hein
Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
Aiki is: your chosen relation to another's actions and intentions. It could simply be called Attention and rhythm. This is the basic of what Aiki is
-Chris Hein
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Old 03-17-2006, 07:38 PM   #84
eyrie
 
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Ah, ok... I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

In my (admittedly limited jujitsu) experience, a jujitsu lock closes the joints and works by isolating the range of movement in a joint (hence pain compliance) - and is usually achieved thru mechanical connection, independent of taking uke's center in the way aiki does.

Aiki, OTOH, is finding the path to uke's center, mostly indirectly, and seldom thru mechanical connections through closed joints.

Which is why nikyo and sankyo are very different in the way the jujitsu folk I play with apply it and how the aikido folk I play with apply it. YMMV of course.

Ignatius
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Old 03-17-2006, 08:33 PM   #85
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote:
Shaun wrote "Aiki is in itself a grounded state where time equals both zero and infinity. I am not talking about metaphysics, cosmologies or metaphors."

Well, this sounds like metaphysical cosmological and
metaphorical nonesense.
Mr. Douglas,

Well sure it does. It is for that very reason that I stated that I wasn't speaking along those lines. If it had been obvious, I wouldn't have needed to restate my point as being to the contrary. However, regardless of one's take on something, if it is not understood then it should sound like nonsense, even when it is not.

There is a wonderful analogy that I would like to share. In the movie awakenings staring Robert De Nero and Robin Williams there is a moment when he has a grand realization that his catatonic patients aren't standing still because they are not moving, but rather that their brains are firing so fast that it is beyond the body's ability to respond... (my take on what the actual diagnosis was) Instead of a regimen of experimental drugs designed to speed up the mind, he gives them something to slow them down and it works, albeit temporarily. I am sure that had Dr. Malcolm Sayer simply explained his thought process to a medical board, they too might have said something along the lines of "...sounds like nonsense, but then again, they would have been wrong.

The example is analogous to a system state that is moving back and forth at the speed of light It seems as though there is no movement at all. When one studies speed of light formulas one realizes that there is something magical that occurs at the speed of light where matter and time become "interesting" In the paradigm about which I speak, I am referring also to interesting observations.

I believe that we may be limited by our overall view of things. Just to pull random numbers out of a hat, if two people are both on the same path and the first believes that path has 10 segments that equal a particular distance, the second person might agree, or disagree. If the second observes it to be 10 times as long, and both travel only half of the path each observes, the second person will travel ten times the distance as the first. My point here is that if we limit our view we may not travel as far as we might like.

It is easy to point at something and ridicule it. It is also easy to attempt it and not being able to succeed go back to what we know. What is difficult is to believe in something so much and for so long and then find out in the very next moment that we were incorrect. What is even much more difficult is to struggle to walk along the new path and let go of the old. We are constantly making these choices. Many seek the comfort of the recognizable, others the embrace sheer fear of the unknown. With which one of these do you identify Mr. Douglass?



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Old 03-18-2006, 03:02 PM   #86
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Re: final lock doesn't work

I thought the same thing not so long ago... for instance, on the Shihonage pin it seems very easy to slip out and get back to a neutral position. I asked my sensei, and gave him permission to show me where I was mistaken.

See, it is true that the uke cooperates, but the nage goes out of his or her way to be extra gentle. My sensei, without applying much pressure at all, nearly wrenched my shoulder out.

I was convinced.

"The only true victory is victory over oneself."

Rob Cunningham
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Old 03-18-2006, 05:14 PM   #87
Adam Alexander
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Well Jean, how would the average Joe know if what they were doing was correct, even if they trained conscientiously? I would say that Darren is a conscientious student, otherwise he would not have asked the question. And if he thought it was correct, he wouldn't be asking. Granted there might be some "stealing" of technique involved, but this is really basic stuff that his instructor should have covered, prior to experimentation - for training safety reasons.

To each their own, perhaps. But I wish people would get over this "s3cr3t d34dly knowledge" rubbish. Aikido is no more and no less devastating than any other martial art. This stuff is easily explained and based on physical laws and anatomical structures. That we choose not to apply these techniques brutally in training is merely in "the way".
Relax sweetheart, no-one's p*ss*ng in your Wheaties.

In the style that I train, I've rarely to never been told too much about details...even the "stealing the technique" part. What I described is simply what I've read that I've found to be consistent with my experience.

If he's in a style that doesn't talk too much about that stuff, then what I'm saying is appropriate...Forget to take you Midol?

Further, the "s3cr3t d34dly knowledge" is how I've experienced Aikido...and I like that stuff. If you don't, get over it. That's how it is.

Agreed, this stuff is easily explained and based on the same laws. However, I've heard many things that were way too advanced for me and never meant a thing for years. In those cases, I spun my wheels trying to figure out things that were way too advanced when I could of been being productive working on things at my level.

This may be a case where basic stuff is more productive than anatomical info...which is what I get from the original post.
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Old 03-18-2006, 05:21 PM   #88
Michael Douglas
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Shaun Ravens wrote : "We are constantly making these choices. Many seek the comfort of the recognizable, others the embrace sheer fear of the unknown. With which one of these do you identify Mr. Douglass?"

Well, aside from spelling my name wrong, which isn't
important, I'd like to ask you to rephrase the question.
As it stands it doesn't make sense, so I can't choose.
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Old 03-18-2006, 05:24 PM   #89
eyrie
 
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Well, it's ALL basic...

Ignatius
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Old 03-18-2006, 08:56 PM   #90
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote:
I'd like to ask you to rephrase the question. As it stands it doesn't make sense, so I can't choose.
Mr. Douglas,

Okay one time I am writing nonsense, and the next I am not making sense… Perhaps it is me…

The question was a simple one. Simply, do you believe yourself to be more apt to practice what you know, what feels right in other words your better techniques or do you seek out the unknown, feeling uncomfortable and tend to practice your weakest techniques - even though it makes your uke think, "gee this guy really doesn't know what he is doing..."?
Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote:
Well, this sounds like metaphysical cosmological and metaphorical nonesense.
The question really stems from these earlier comments made in response to a section of one of my previous posts. You seem to basically say that since you don't understand what you read, you'll simply choose to criticize it so that you can continue to ignore it. This is done rather than embracing the possibility that there may be 10 times the distance or the width or the depth to the path you are on and say that you are committed to. With regards to my question, I am equating the first with choosing the safe, the familiar, practicing the techniques you are good at. I am equating the second with seeking out the unknown, the uncomfortable and standing for long periods of time in the question rather than the answer.

Perhaps you believed that your comments were going to be seen as insightful and poignant, but in stark contrast to making a statement about me, or what was said, I believe you made more of a statement about you and how you think. I asked my question simply to give you the opportunity to make a clear statement. I thought you might want to avoid appearing nonsensical for criticizing what you deem nonsense without seeming to have made any real effort towards critical analysis of the material you chose to write off with a simple, glib comment.


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Old 03-19-2006, 01:03 AM   #91
Michael Varin
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Shaun,

This all sounds great, but one thing has been bothering me.

It's N'EST-CE PAS.

Starting over from the beginning to see what it is that you have missed applies to the French language as well!

Michael
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Old 03-19-2006, 02:21 AM   #92
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Bloody hell my head hurts, that's a hell of a lot to try and take in on a Sunday morning There's some interesting thoughts back there but I confess to getting lost way back (T=what and all that). I don't count myself as a studious man so trying to absorb all that isn't going to work for me, probably I'm missing out somewhere. But I thought Aikido was lot more simple than that, by which I don't mean easy, just that if you really do just accept whats coming at you and work with it instead of against it, Aiki (joining/ blending/ harmonizing with ki) takes uke's centre and joins it with my centre, making one, and since I am the centre of my universe........

If I start thinking about that more I'm not sure it stacks up, but my head hurts too much and I'm already thinking about yesterdays football game. Instead I think I'll go down the dojo tomorrow night and have another play at getting things right, work on things that don't go right, and probably not giving any thought to scientific formulae. I'm not trying to p!ss on thoughts and posts above, they are all food for thought and probably very valid, but I can't help thinking that they're maybe overcomplicating things.......

Maybe I need a new sensei, maybe my students need a new sensei? Not sure I do yet, I've still got plenty to learn and he still inspires me greatly, so little time left to play. As for my students, I'll let them decide, I'll close the doors when they stop coming.

rgds
Bryan whose head is now bursting but final lock seems to work if I do it right

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Old 03-19-2006, 10:37 AM   #93
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Re: final lock doesn't work

I think you just said what we are all thinking.

-Chris
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Old 03-19-2006, 05:12 PM   #94
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Re: final lock doesn't work

I'm with Chris on this one - my opinion.

It's true, there are multiple centers, but when you see these centers affecting other centers (such that a majority of the opponents body comes under your control - however you want to phrase that) in Aikido waza one has to take into account that the various physical properties (inertia, centrifugal force, gravity, etc.) of motion are playing a huge part in this type of control. Without the physical properties of motion playing this huge role, as when someone has already stopped moving because they are laying prone on the ground, the amount of centers that you can affect from any single center goes down significantly.

This is why one feels more controlled as Nikyo is being applied than when one has taken ukemi and is sitting or laying at the bottom of the Nikyo motion - where motion has stopped. This is all compounded when one has stopped and laying on the ground prone. Why? Because it becomes next to impossible to mechanically control the two major axes of motion (i.e. the spine and the hips) from a single center (e.g. the elbow as in Ikkyo) when the action has stabilized somewhat. The forces necessary to align the centers, such that one lock can lock several other centers, are absent; so then is the necessary restriction on alternate alignments, so then is the capacity to use one to control another. This is why BJJ is so great on the ground - you learn how to move one or both of these axes; you learn how to control them in someone else; and you learn how to use them against someone else.

Aikido "pins," in my opinion, are better seen as setups for breaks, and/or holds from which you can strike (armed or unarmed), and/or exercises meant to develop a sense of grounding/kokyu, etc. One should not expect to pin anyone - in complete control - with standard Aikido Kihon Waza pins (in my opinion).

dmv

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Old 03-19-2006, 07:55 PM   #95
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
I'm with Chris on this one - my opinion.
I am sure most people who consider themselves to be "grounded" would as well.
Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
It's true, there are multiple centers, but when you see these centers affecting other centers (such that a majority of the opponents body comes under your control - however you want to phrase that) in Aikido waza one has to take into account that the various physical properties (inertia, centrifugal force, gravity, etc.) of motion are playing a huge part in this type of control. Without the physical properties of motion playing this huge role, as when someone has already stopped moving because they are laying prone on the ground, the amount of centers that you can affect from any single center goes down significantly.
There must be an old adage that would work well here, it probably goes something along the lines of, "If you say that you may be able to if you try, then you have the hope that someday you may indeed succeed, However, if you say that you can not, you have already proven yourself correct." While both may be true, I do not consider them equal.
Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
This is why one feels more controlled as Nikyo is being applied than when one has taken ukemi and is sitting or laying at the bottom of the Nikyo motion - where motion has stopped.
This should not be the case at all. What is in effect before contact is no more or less in effect at the beginning or the end of the technique.
Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
This is all compounded when one has stopped and laying on the ground prone. Why? Because it becomes next to impossible to mechanically control the two major axes of motion (i.e. the spine and the hips) from a single center (e.g. the elbow as in Ikkyo) when the action has stabilized somewhat. The forces necessary to align the centers, such that one lock can lock several other centers, are absent; so then is the necessary restriction on alternate alignments, so then is the capacity to use one to control another.
This is a great observation. I like your choice of words ("...next to impossible...") leaving room for at least the possibility of something beyond what you have already achieved or can imagine. However it merely indicates that there must be another level that needs to be achieved in order to obtain such control. While I only have elementary ideas as to what needs to be done to accomplish this as Nage, I have been on the receiving end enough times to know that I am still only playing in a sandbox while there are jets flying over my head.
Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
This is why BJJ is so great on the ground - you learn how to move one or both of these axes; you learn how to control them in someone else; and you learn how to use them against someone else.
Well, as it is ju-jitsu, we would all imagine that to be the case.
Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
Aikido "pins," in my opinion, are better seen as setups for breaks, and/or holds from which you can strike (armed or unarmed), and/or exercises meant to develop a sense of grounding/kokyu, etc. One should not expect to pin anyone - in complete control - with standard Aikido Kihon Waza pins (in my opinion).
I think it may be more precise if you said, "I do not expect to pin anyone - in complete control - with standard Aikido Kihon Waza pins ...whatever that may be



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Old 03-19-2006, 09:12 PM   #96
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Well the thing is that a lot of aikidoka all over the world think that they have been on the receiving side of some totally 100% immobilizing pin. That has to be included in any reflection involving what may or may not be on the other side of ignorance. This is because delusion - especially self-delusion - is just as warping as ignorance when it comes to issues of truth and accuracy.

As far as that goes, the key word here is "think" - and what goes unnoticed in all that "thinking," and then of course also in the hoping of being able to one day do what they thought they "felt", is a whole lot of culture that has nothing to do with the pure and simple task of pinning someone down that does not want to be pinned down.

When you see someone being pinned from one corner of their body, I would propose, you are viewing, at best, an unconscious application of a training culture (i.e. a kind of ignorance in and of itself). Let's remember, it is a basic principle of Aikido waza that one should be able to move at all times: If someone has control of one of your corners, move your other corners, and then that person won't have control of that one corner any longer, etc.

What one sees when Aikido pins "fail" against escape attempts is nothing more than this basic principle (i.e. the person is moving their free corners - the other centers they have at their disposal - thus nullifying the control the person had on the first corner). If a person doesn't have movement of these other corners, then its primarily for one of three reasons: 1) One of Aikido's most basic principles is flawed (which I do not think it is); the person is subconsciously allowing their other corners to be controlled via the assumptions contained within a training culture (e.g. "When I pin your arm in ikkyo, try to move your arm."); or the person feeling totally immobilized doesn't understand this basic principle of Aikido waza and simply does not know how to move his/her other centers to free the one center once being controlled.

In my opinion, one has to equally consider all of this, weighing it carefully, fully, against any position that posits "if one really knew what he was doing, he would know how to 100% immobilize a human body in the prone position by having contact with the elbow point of articulation alone (for example)." Why? Because while it is easy to be wrong about what one knows, and though it is difficult to attain high levels of training, the easiest of all things to do is to say, "Well, you can't do it because you don't know, and you don't know because you can't do it." - having that justify anything and everything that does not work as expected.

For me, I have to feel it, then I have to understand it, then I have to do it, before I go on thinking that other folks' position is supported solely by ignorance (i.e. a lack of wisdom and insight). If I hear it from someone else, before it carries any weight (which is that solely of consideration), I have to know that the person in question has legitimate martial skills (i.e. skills at countering and neutralizing attacks - launching them as well). That said, I think there are a lot of aikidoka out there that could quite easily be pinned by solely having one corner of their body controlled (as in Ikkyo). It's just that this is probably more related to an ignorance regarding martial skills than it is to any wisdom regarding pinning. In that sense then, we are at an impasse regarding where ignorance lies and/or where wisdom lies.

All the more reason to keep thinking and training with and upon these things.

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 03-19-2006, 10:52 PM   #97
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Darren Kennedy wrote:
I understand what you are saying Chris but try and maintain any of the locks for any period of time without having to break ukes arm . The locks themselves are not effective unless you break ukes arm .....
In Aikido: The Way of Harmony, John Stevens how Shirata Rinjiro Sensei was challenged by people in the 1930s (I think -- the book is at home and I am not), and "more than one arm was broken." Shirata Sensei attributed this to his opponents resisting him. So you can't say they have no effect at all. So there IS a way to make it work, but you probably don't want to break someone's arm if you're just horsing around with them. But why do you want to maintane it for "any length of time"? BJJ players don't get someone in a submission and hold there for hours; they (should) hold just until the person taps out. The same is true in Aikido practice -- you aply pressure until uke taps. In a law enforcement context, you get the person face down on the ground (like most Aikido pins aim for) and get the hands behind his back and cuff him. Again, no major "length of time."

Quote:
...... I'm only trying to look at the effectiveness of aikido on a personal level and this was one point I came up against where I had to question. Like I said in my first post, try it with a person that is non compliant with what you you are doing and you'll find the lock does'nt work .Yes if you cooperate they work obviously , mainly because uke is passsive , but with an uncooprative uke they have many ways out of your pin . NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO
When I had just started karate, I sparred with some friends and they kept doing things that confounded me, mainly low kicks and fakes. Does that mean it "doesn't work"? That never occurred to me. Instead, I learned to watch for what they did. In other words, I took it as a leanring experience.

Instead of pronnouncing, "Aikido doesn't work unless uke cooperates," especailly since it seems to be within the context of horsing around with some BJJ guys, learn to watch what they do. How do they get out of your pin? What can you do to sector off those possibilities? This isn't going to happen overnight. But persevering in Aikido while bearing in mind what your friends do is probably more productive then just writing off the whole art. And remember, Aikido is one of the systems law enforcement uses to restrain perps who are most definitely not coopertating. Food for thought.
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Old 03-20-2006, 04:10 AM   #98
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
When you see someone being pinned from one corner of their body, I would propose, you are viewing, at best, an unconscious application of a training culture (i.e. a kind of ignorance in and of itself). Let's remember, it is a basic principle of Aikido waza that one should be able to move at all times: If someone has control of one of your corners, move your other corners, and then that person won't have control of that one corner any longer, etc.
If you have gotten hold of one of ukes corners, and they try to move the others, isn't it possible to just move the one corner away from the others again, so that they loose their balance again towards the one corner? Or is this something that is not "allowed" for the purpose of this discussion?

kvaak
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Old 03-20-2006, 09:10 AM   #99
senshincenter
 
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Yes, in my experience, this is what you must do if you are not going to opt for one of the other three options I gave before. It's just that I wouldn't consider this a matter of being pinned - more a matter of being controlled. Alternately, you can also seek to capture more corners (which is what we do in our arrest and control program) - so, someone could be pinned, but this would take us away from standard Aikido kihon waza pinning architecture. In our arrest and control program we seek to capture both arms and the head - which allows us to control the hips indirectly. Once all of these centers are captured, it is extremely difficult to become unpinned.

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 03-20-2006, 12:04 PM   #100
Noela Bingham
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Re: final lock doesn't work

I know several students who are flexible enough to *unpin * themselves from the shiho nage lock has any one found an answer to this other than atemi
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