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Old 03-16-2006, 05:38 PM   #51
eyrie
 
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Ah... the good ol' Golgi tendon reflex.

If you know how to do this with the shin, you should be able to do it with a tegatana. If you understand how it works, you can also do it without tegatana.

But that's only a small part of "augmenting" an ikkyo pin... it has more to do with the juxtaposition of uke's arm with their body, and the manner in which the elbow and shoulder is pinned to the base and all the way to their feet.

Go back to what Rob John said...

Ignatius
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Old 03-16-2006, 06:05 PM   #52
Mark Freeman
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Ah... the good ol' Golgi tendon reflex.

If you know how to do this with the shin, you should be able to do it with a tegatana. If you understand how it works, you can also do it without tegatana.

But that's only a small part of "augmenting" an ikkyo pin... it has more to do with the juxtaposition of uke's arm with their body, and the manner in which the elbow and shoulder is pinned to the base and all the way to their feet.

Go back to what Rob John said...
Whoops, I should have read back thru the post, I see that I have just repeated a few post. Oh well through repetition we slowly learn.

Could you put tegatana into english for me, I want to know exactly what you mean, and I am at a slight disadvantage regarding japanese terms, thanks.

cheers,
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 03-16-2006, 06:09 PM   #53
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Knife hand, typical "ku-rhad-ie chop".
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Old 03-16-2006, 06:11 PM   #54
eyrie
 
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Re: final lock doesn't work

krotty... and it's not a chop - more like slice.

Ignatius
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Old 03-16-2006, 06:13 PM   #55
Mark Freeman
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Thanks chaps, now I know exactly what you mean

cheers,
Mark

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Old 03-16-2006, 06:21 PM   #56
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Re: final lock doesn't work

A lot of people forget to pin the shoulder which is where most problems arise in my experience, especially with nikkyo and sankyo.
If uke has flexible joints then often rather than pinning them nikkyo and sankyo just lift the shoulder off the floor giving uke space to roll over and counter.
If you keep the shoulder pinned you should be in a position where any attempt to get up involves them trying to lift your body weight with one shoulder and maybe one arm.
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Old 03-16-2006, 06:58 PM   #57
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Mechanically, and anatomically - yes. But it's really locking their center through the anatomical structures that's the real key.

Ignatius
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Old 03-16-2006, 10:45 PM   #58
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Mechanically, and anatomically - yes. But it's really locking their center through the anatomical structures that's the real key.

Don't know if I agree with that.

Nikyo and sankyo pins are pins isolating a particular part of the body, they don't really go into the center once you are pinning them. It's easy (and should be done) when standing, but once they are laying prone, you are not moving into the center anymore.

From a standing position you can get into their center because you find their point of balance, but when they are laying prone they are naturally balanced by the position, (like a dead guy who has no where else to fall) so their "center" is no longer available to you via the arm.

-Chris Hein
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Old 03-17-2006, 12:47 AM   #59
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
Don't know if I agree with that.

Nikyo and sankyo pins are pins isolating a particular part of the body, they don't really go into the center once you are pinning them. It's easy (and should be done) when standing, but once they are laying prone, you are not moving into the center anymore.

From a standing position you can get into their center because you find their point of balance, but when they are laying prone they are naturally balanced by the position, (like a dead guy who has no where else to fall) so their "center" is no longer available to you via the arm.

-Chris Hein

...and then again, there is always starting over from the beginning to see what it is that you have missed. For example, that there is more than one center. There are many centers. There is also the center of centers as decoded by O-Sensei that comes from "Amenominakanushi O-Kami" in Kojiki... Oops, forget that I mentioned that. "This is not the Aikido you are looking for..." I would be somewhat impressed if anyone would send me a private email with some details about the thing I didn't mention. Thanks

Of course, you could ask your teacher for a better explanation. If he doesn't have one and he can't send you to someone who does, you may just have found out that it is time to find another teacher.












See I forgot, the only thing we can mention these days thanks to the white noise of the few overly posting, non-aikido postulating rather than practicing types is something about Oomoto and neo confucian, buddhist or cosmological references having a whole lot of nothing to do with O-Sensei or his Aikido. Yeah, and that being an attempt to clear things up about Aikido, Kokyu, etc. ... (Hey I put this way on the bottom of my post here, cause you weren't supposed to read it) Now get back to the rest of the thread!



.

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Old 03-17-2006, 02:26 AM   #60
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Shaun,
I'm the center of the universe, or so my momma told me.

-Chris Hein
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Old 03-17-2006, 02:36 AM   #61
Upyu
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Mechanically, and anatomically - yes. But it's really locking their center through the anatomical structures that's the real key.
locking their center through the use of... <drum roll>

sorry that was obnoxious, but I couldn't help it.

Btw you know none of that was aimed at you Teo

Shaun:
Very englightening as always
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Old 03-17-2006, 06:21 AM   #62
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
Shaun,
I'm the center of the universe, or so my momma told me.

-Chris Hein
1. Yeah, but she doesn't study aikido.... Does she?

2. Okay, but you are only one of many centers.

3. Even so, do you know to what the center of centers refers?


In any case I enjoyed your reply. It is clear you are only an egg... as am I.



.

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Old 03-17-2006, 07:33 AM   #63
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:

I would be somewhat impressed if anyone would send me a private email with some details about the thing I didn't mention. Thanks

Of course, you could ask your teacher for a better explanation. If he doesn't have one and he can't send you to someone who does, you may just have found out that it is time to find another teacher.
Here we go again. I-know-better-but-I-won't-tell-you shaun.


Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:

the only thing we can mention these days thanks to the white noise of the few overly posting,
.
Sending out more white noise doesn't help the matter either.




I know it's not correct to judge a teacher by his students' behaviour in the forum. I think you're a nice guy and that. But the way you're exchaning information makes me wonder if the rumors about Mr. Seagals are true. At least the inherent cockiness may be a factor of generating unwanted mis-information.
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Old 03-17-2006, 08:18 AM   #64
Mark Freeman
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
It is clear you are only an egg... as am I.
.
And I'm a chicken, now we can argue which of us was here first!

p.s. what does it mean to be an egg??

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 03-17-2006, 09:15 AM   #65
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
Here we go again. I-know-better-but-I-won't-tell-you shaun. Sending out more white noise doesn't help the matter either.
Mr. Roosvelt,

Thanks for your retort. I can see exactly what you are saying here. What I will say is that when I formatted my original reply, I inadvertently put two non-related points in close proximity.

When I said "I would be somewhat impressed if anyone would send me a private email with some details about the thing I didn't mention." it related only to the preceding paragraph. It did not relate to my next point where I said "Of course, you could ask your teacher for a better explanation. If he doesn't have one and he can't send you to someone who does, you may just have found out that it is time to find another teacher." The latter was a statement which only related to Chris Hein's original conclusion stated in his post. So sorry if I caused any confusion with that.

As for your point that I was inferring that "I know better but I won't tell you," I would have to disagree. You see I made these very clear statements:

1. "...there is always starting over from the beginning to see what it is that you have missed."

2. "...that there is more than one center."

3. "There are many centers."

4. "There is also the center of centers."

5. "...decoded by O-Sensei that comes from "Amenominakanushi O-Kami" in Kojiki."

There were more, but they are not hidden points designed to provide wonderment to the masses of unenlightened.

To once again provide a bit of clarity as to my earlier remarks, when I said, Of course, you could ask your teacher for a better explanation. If he doesn't have one and he can't send you to someone who does, you may just have found out that it is time to find another teacher. I was inferring that Chris should ask his teacher to explain things in a way that would allow him to broaden his seemingly narrow perspective. I was in no way making any conclusions about his teacher and most certainly not relative to me, as you seem to deem I had done. I don't know his teacher, nor his teaching methodology, so I would be very unlikely to draw any meaningful conclusions about he, or it, respectively.

My real point comes from a larger context. It was that although I may clearly speak to some, my point is missed by others. I believe that you have clearly demonstrated this with your reply. Yes, it may be a statement about me. It may also be looked at as a statement about those who can't understand what I am saying. However, coming from a holistic approach, I prefer to see it as a statement of the overall relationship between me and the other person. If this were in a dojo setting, I would equate it to an ineffective teacher-student relationship rather than say one or the other person is at fault. Should that be the case, and the circumstances insurmountable, the best thing to do may be to move on.

My feeling is that sometimes, regardless of the time invested in a teacher, dojo, organization or what have you, I think it prudent to start over and seek things from another perspective. If that means moving away, or seeking from another source, it is done in an effort to move oneself forward rather than as a means to invalidate a person who contributed to us or our past efforts. It is acknowledging the errors of the past that bring us to the conclusion to move ourselves forward.

I believe the examples I gave were pertinent, and might help spark an idea that already is floating around in someone's mind. I believe that my overall context outlined above is a dispassionate reality check that was by no means meant to harm, lay blame or mock someone's ability or understanding. I hardly see it as "Sending out more white noise which doesn't help the matter either. However, I wouldn't be so sure about the intent or desired effect of your post. Might you also clarify (for the rest of us) your position on those points?

As for these sentiments:
Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
I know it's not correct to judge a teacher by his students' behaviour in the forum. I think you're a nice guy and that. But the way you're exchaning information makes me wonder if the rumors about Mr. Seagals are true. At least the inherent cockiness may be a factor of generating unwanted mis-information.
I would have to say that I believe that you can judge a teacher by his students, and visa-versa. Also, I am not exchanging information in this forum. I do so in private, both on the mat and off. I simply offered up my perspective, a few ideas to be considered, along with a prod and a push to encourage a person to take a step and confront their own current level of comfort. As for me being a nice guy, well I have been accurately accused of being much worse. In truth I am not trying to be nice at all. If I was trying to be nice, it and I would be false. On another message board I use the tag line, "A real villain is always preferable to a fake hero. I can see by the nature of your posts that in your own way it would seem that you agree.

Lastly, as for your comments about Seagal Sensei, I will only say that wondering about rumors is like investing in yesterday - quite pointless by my account. One thing for sure, in the time I was fortunate enough to be connected with Seagal Sensei I came to see that he knew how to be himself at all times. This is a great power. As with all great powers - just like a double edged sword - it can work for you or against you. This is why we must all continue to train.

Ganbattemasu



.

Last edited by Misogi-no-Gyo : 03-17-2006 at 09:20 AM.

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Old 03-17-2006, 09:18 AM   #66
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
And I'm a chicken, now we can argue which of us was here first!

p.s. what does it mean to be an egg??
Well, you would have to ask Robert A. Heinlein what it means to be a Stranger in a Strange Land. Might I recommend the unabridged version.

Shall we head back to the thread?



Namaste



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Old 03-17-2006, 10:44 AM   #67
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:


Ganbattemasu

.
????

Thanks for the reply.

I have a question. A nage is lying on his back on the mat, arm outstreched, a uke is sitting on his arm. The nage lifts the uke up.
How does it be done?

I hope you can answer the machanism in this.



Disclaimer: I don't know how it's done. The answer is not important to me now. I have enough stuff to work on for another 3 years at least to get me into a basic "ki" level. I was looking for short cut. It seems there is none but hard work every day. Now, it's just curiosity.
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Old 03-17-2006, 10:51 AM   #68
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Shaun,
I did start over, I left Aikido all together, I found some neat stuff, and came back very excited about Aikido.

There is more then one center, yes. I can be centered, you can be centered, the universe can be centered, yet it is very neat maybe there is only one center (the divine light that comes in through a part in the clouds),. That is all fine and well, but I was talking about a persons physical balance point as commonly referred to as the "center".

I think I've hatched.

-Chris
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Old 03-17-2006, 11:23 AM   #69
Upyu
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
????

Thanks for the reply.

I have a question. A nage is lying on his back on the mat, arm outstreched, a uke is sitting on his arm. The nage lifts the uke up.
How does it be done?

I hope you can answer the machanism in this.



Disclaimer: I don't know how it's done. The answer is not important to me now. I have enough stuff to work on for another 3 years at least to get me into a basic "ki" level. I was looking for short cut. It seems there is none but hard work every day. Now, it's just curiosity.

Dude, that's too easy for him.
Even I can do a reduced version of that.
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Old 03-17-2006, 11:23 AM   #70
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:

Thanks for the reply.
You are quite welcome. Thank you for reading taking it in.
Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
I have a question. A nage is lying on his back on the mat, arm outstreched, a uke is sitting on his arm. The nage lifts the uke up. How does it be done?

I hope you can answer the machanism in this.
Well without seeing the demonstration it would be impossible to tell. Even with seeing it, there are more than likely several methods. However, for the sheer joy in understanding the question without seeing the imaginary demo, I would need to know when you say, "...the nage lifts the uke up." do you mean the uke rises (falls, is thrown or what have you) off of nage's arm, or Nage raises his arm (and uke with it) where it looks like Uke is sitting on Nage's outstretched arm? The former I have seen and been on the receiving end of many many times. The latter I believe is mere fantasy, that is until I have been on the receiving end of it.
Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
Disclaimer: I don't know how it's done. The answer is not important to me now. I have enough stuff to work on for another 3 years at least to get me into a basic "ki" level. I was looking for short cut. It seems there is none but hard work every day. Now, it's just curiosity.
Hard work is great is magical in two very specific ways. First is for those who will understand as it leads them where they expect to go. The second even more magical because for those who will never understand it leads them both in the opposite direction of where they expect to go and lets them believe they have arrived. I am sure you already understand exacty what it is I am saying.

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
????
Ganbatte - means Hold on; Go for it; Keep at it
Ganbatte (masu or kudasai) are other ways it may be used.



.

...

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Old 03-17-2006, 11:27 AM   #71
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Shaun:
Very englightening as always
really? How so?



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Old 03-17-2006, 11:56 AM   #72
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
Ganbatte - means Hold on; Go for it; Keep at it
Ganbatte (masu or kudasai) are other ways it may be used.
頑張る ganbaru - to persevere, to do one's best, to "hang in there"
頑張って ganbatte - gerund form
頑張ってください ganbatte kudasai - "Do your best." "Hang in there." "Good luck."
頑張って(い)ます ganbatte-(i)masu - "I'm doing my best." "I'm hanging in there." "I'm perservering."

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
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Old 03-17-2006, 01:38 PM   #73
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
Shaun,
I did start over, I left Aikido all together, I found some neat stuff, and came back very excited about Aikido.
Maybe yes, maybe no as only you really know for sure. Most often when people begin again, they do so from the point they believe at which they left off. Neat stuff is well, neat. However gather up enough of it and all you have is reason to find a bigger place to live. My recent effort has been to identify where I have done just that and then find ways to pare my tricks and goodies down to the basic level and isolate one of O-Sensei's training methodologies found within the his Misogi-no-Gyo. It is wonderful and depressing when I find something that has been staring me in the face for so long. Then I get to go back and watch the video tapes of my earliest time in Japan and hear and see that it was explained to me right from the beginning. I simply had too much in the way of seeing it.
Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
There is more then one center, yes. I can be centered, you can be centered, the universe can be centered, yet it is very neat maybe there is only one center (the divine light that comes in through a part in the clouds),.
Chris, yes that is all very true, but I am not talking about metaphors. I am talking about simultaneous points of conversion around which activity flows in circular arcs - arcs whose linear motion occur along various planes and differentiating angles of orientation.
Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
That is all fine and well, but I was talking about a persons physical balance point as commonly referred to as the "center".
Chris, let's go back to your original point (about which I made my original comments)
Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
Nikyo and sankyo pins are pins isolating a particular part of the body, they don't really go into the center once you are pinning them. It's easy (and should be done) when standing, but once they are laying prone, you are not moving into the center anymore.
At one point in my training, I too held the same view. However I found that I had to rely on strength and speed in relation to an attacker's reaction time to what I was doing. While this can work, I found that when someone is either stronger or faster, it often does not. Of course this view I held at the time allowed me to pursue my understanding that the joint locks were just that - joint locks - they were either based upon pain compliance or damage. I understood this as Aikido, and rectified it as such because it was uke who decided if he wanted to comply or be injured. However by training with another teacher at another point in my training I came to realize several things.

1. Pain compliance does not really work on someone who is committed to harming someone.

2. Pain compliance does not really work on someone who is on drugs and can not feel what is being done to them, or is on alcohol, and reaction times being slower they get injured while they are trying to de-escalate the situation.

3. Pain is not required or needed, nor is it even the goal of aikido. Since the antithesis can be achieved as a way of neutralizing the strength and speed one-ups man-ship contests that often are passed off as aikido, it is actually the desired methodology

4. (most importantly) that joints actually work in two ways - they can be locked and unlocked. The natural state of the joint is unlocked. This is so we have the flexibility to do things. If we did not have any joints you might imagine how difficult life would be. This also means that the natural order is for an attacker to lock them (i.e. when making a fist, or avoiding nage's lock) where by the next natural action would be to once again unlock them.

Detail
If I give away my intention of attacking someone's wrist, as in what many people do when they think of nikyo, then I give a signal to my attacker to lock the wrist. We have all run into that scenario in our training. I am often asked how do I get uke to "unlock" so that I can then (re)lock uke's wrist with nikyo? As an answer, I all too often hear, "Oh that is the time for atemi... " and that is certainly one way of approaching the waza. However, there is another way. Since the natural progression of uke's joint is from unlocked to locked, rather than trying to find a way to unlock it in an attempt to apply our own lock - only to have uke initialize another effort to avoid having nage lock it - I can use the understanding that uke is trying to avoid nage trying to lock the wrist. Rather than trying to apply a lock to the wrist, I allow nage's joint to achieve its ground state - that being unlocked. There are two levels of achieving this. The first as you might imagine is to draw uke's intention in another direction. As I have indicated this can be done with atemi, but then we are in the domain of reaction and that may not always be preferable. The second is to not lead it to be locked in the first place.

If you are following me then you quickly realize that this only leads right back into the "Nage tries to lock Uke's wrist while Uke tries to avoid the lock" scenario. However, as I mentioned that is one way of approaching the waza. Another way is to use the unlocking method (i.e. maintaining the ground state of the joint) because there is no time involved in this process:

T=delta(S1 & S2) where T equals the difference in time between state one and state two. If uke is remains at the ground state, T=0. Time is relative at all points along the line except for two points:

1. When time equals zero

and

2. When time equals infinity

Since space/time is curved, we understand that both point one and point two are the same point. This is where Aiki lives and the point for which we must stand to do Aikido. That is the reason we continue to train.

Since we have the joint already unlocked by keeping it this state we can use it to connect to the center. If it is already locked, nage simply moves to the next joint in line, or any other along the path. The goal is to reach Uke's center. Nage can do so using Uke's wrist, elbow, shoulder hip, knee, ankle, finger, toe, neck. These we know as kansetsu waza (joint locks) but I prefer to call them shapes instead of locks. It is really not necessary to even grab the joint when the shape can be maintained. By extending this idea Nage can use almost any point along Uke's body to access Uke's center. This we know as kokyu nage. Once again we are describing shapes that are maintained at one level and altered at another level at the same time. By extending this idea it matters not what Uke's orientation is to the ground (the earth). He can be standing, prone, in the air, and, (going against the accepted grain these days) so can Nage. It is not necessary for Nage to be touching the ground to achieve aiki, as aiki may be achieved while both uke and nage are in mid air. Aiki is in itself a grounded state where time equals both zero and infinity. I am not talking about metaphysics, cosmologies or metaphors. I am specifically speaking within a physical realm.

Okay I went trough all of that, but once again go back to your statement:
Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
That is all fine and well, but I was talking about a persons physical balance point as commonly referred to as the "center".
It is certainly true when you make that statement and then use it as the principle upon which you based comments which followed that all is in order in said paradigm However, when considering the many physical concentric centers and the ability and desire to use the joints as an unlocking mechanism versus a locking mechanism it opens up another avenue for each of us to consider and which to adapt.

In my opinion, joint locking and the like is Ju-Jitsu. I like Ju-Jitsu in its many incarnations. However Ju-Jitsu is not aikido. Using Aiki, as a method to achieve some form of lock is what I would call Aiki-Jujitsu. Once again, Aiki-Jujitsu is not aikido. Aikido is simply different than those two things. You may care for one, I for another, and still someone else for the third. That is what makes for horse racing and the UFC.

It is important that each of us, regardless of our personal take, or particular preference realize that if we are going to discuss Aikido that we clarify as best as we are able at the moment if we mean O-Sensei's Aikido (whatever that may be) or something else. If we see O-Sensei's Aikido, then we can discuss things in one way. However, if we, as has become the fashion of late, want to discuss other things, that we admit out loud that we are not discussing O-Sensei's Aikido, his methodologies in the way that he saw them, used them, taught them, demonstrated them... etc. Otherwise we reduce ourselves to bowling balls talking about oranges in an apple orchard... Nespa?
Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
I think I've hatched. - Chris
Let's hope not! (Clean up in aisle four!)




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Old 03-17-2006, 01:58 PM   #74
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Shaun, I'm not sure I agree with everything you said, but I REALLY APPRECIATE that post.

Thank you very much,
Ron (hope you are well)

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 03-17-2006, 02:17 PM   #75
Misogi-no-Gyo
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 498
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Shaun, I'm not sure I agree with everything you said, but I REALLY APPRECIATE that post.

Thank you very much,
Ron (hope you are well)
Hi Ron,

Having had the chance to get to know you a bit, I have a feeling I could point out the parts where we may disagree. However, I tried to put things in terms of "my opinions' and "my beliefs" versus it "is" this way or that...

For me, this is my current understanding, and a simple representation of part of the framework within which I am pursuing what my teacher has been able to put forth in front of me. I am sure that, too will change given enought time. Rember though, its ony when T=0 or T= that I will really have anything concrete to stand on. Given that one is the moment before conception and the other just after passing, I may come to know something, but alas I won't be able to pay it forward, as they say... Perhaps the honor is in the effort.

We each shall get to see, but never get to say.



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