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Old 03-14-2006, 07:26 PM   #26
Adam Alexander
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Darren Kennedy wrote:
I've been looking at the final lock or pin of aikido moves and can honestly say that without a passive uke they do not work.
Relative to context, very true. In fact, relative to context, all Aikido techniques require a "passive" uke. It's your job, as an Aikidoka, to train at them so much that they become muscle-memory so that an "uncooperative" uke becomes cooperative without realizing that he/she is now cooperative without even realizing.

Approaching a situation to use an Aikido technique from the perspective "I'm going to attempt first control" doesn't work because our techniques are contingent on context (In fact, as Fooks pointed out, ultimately, so are BJJ's...Only, apparently, it's easier to muscle BJJ and make it work) and the conditions that make a first control technique applicable change too quick for you to react simply off of conscious thought--it has to be reflex.

The pins do work. I believe your problem is that they can't be muscled.

So, the statement shouldn't be, IMO, "the pins don't work" the statement should be "I don't know how to make them work."

Again, this is all contextual. As others have stated, there's plenty of ways to muscle it.
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Old 03-14-2006, 07:37 PM   #27
eyrie
 
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Relative to context, very true. In fact, relative to context, all Aikido techniques require a "passive" uke. It's your job, as an Aikidoka, to train at them so much that they become muscle-memory so that an "uncooperative" uke becomes cooperative without realizing that he/she is now cooperative without even realizing.
I think it's more to do with getting the structural and anatomical juxtapositions correct more than progamming "muscle-memory". If you're training incorrectly, you're imprinting an incorrect "muscle-memory" anyway.

Ignatius
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Old 03-14-2006, 07:40 PM   #28
xuzen
 
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Darren Kennedy wrote:
I've been looking at the final lock or pin of aikido moves and can honestly say that without a passive uke they do not work. Don't just take my word for it , try it and see what you think , but after training with a couple of bjj people they gave me realization they only work if uke cooperates. All your views welcome!
Chris H, made some very interesting remark and I tend to agree with him. OK, more of the matter at hand...

Let's take Ikkyo / ikkajo as a working example... if the pin does not work, it can easily transition to hiji shime / waki gatame... and that is a high probability lock. Many BJJ'er utilizes it. Many aikido players tend to stop when something out of the ordinary happens. The trick is to roll with it and continue with the flow.

Now let's take nikyo / nikajo. This pin is called ude hineri. I think this is what the MMA people call the "Kimura" yes?. Most of the time, the escape comes from inexperience shite fumbling the locks and the uke escaping before the final lock sets in. There is nothing wrong with the lock, it depends entirely on the method of execution.

Having said that, the following is some of the tricks i used to have a more secure hold.
1) Use your forward shin to press down on the back of the neck of uncooperative uke. The press is such that uke cannot move his neck and his neck is pinned to the floor, without any possibility of movements.
2) Should uke manage to escape the pin by rolling away... transition to juji gatame. Many experience aikido teacher has back ground in judo as well, and they can probably show you how to do the transition. It is not difficult. Again, my point to take home is.. do not stop, roll with the flow and transition to another technique.
Or you could like Chris Hein suggest.. take out your wakizashi and slice the uke's neck and be done with it. (oops... this is the 21st century not feudal Japan... I gotta remember to take my medication )

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 03-14-2006, 07:44 PM   #29
clwk
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Re: final lock doesn't work

[All right, I have no idea how to use this software correctly, but:]

Darren Sez:

>I've been looking at the final lock or pin of aikido moves and can
>honestly say that without a passive uke they do not work. Don't
>just take my word for it , try it and see what you think , but after
>training with a couple of bjj people they gave me realization they
>only work if uke cooperates. All your views welcome!

Hmmmmmmm. Call me a lurker.

What is that supposed to mean, "final lock or pin of aikido moves . . . only work if uke cooperates"?

You say, "just take my word for it", but actually, I'll pass. I'll be the first one to say that many people don't apply the 'pins' correctly, but:

Are you saying that, if nage is allowed to accurately find the pin without resistance, that uke can then uncooperatively escape from it? Or are you saying that a resisting uke can always prevent nage from finding the pin (apparently without harm to self)? The distinction is important, but not necessarily decisive. Exactly at what point the uncooperation kicks in might be relevant. For example, you could certainly resist anyone's pin by failing to cooperate to the extent of electing never to be present in their physical space, right?

Barring that semantic option, are you realistically considering the threat of uncooperative force? In other words, you are aware, are you not, that the 'pins' are softening of 'breaks', right?

If your point is that, in a completely free situation, where both 'uke' and 'nage' have relinquished their 'cooperative' roles and are instead just a couple of fellas intent on banging the crap out of each other, possibly fatally, then sure - I'll buy that its unlikely anyone will end up in a 'pin'. However, if your point is that given some kind of 'leverage' into the pinning situation the technical scenario is just infeasible for nage, I'm sort of doubtful - unless uke has specially trained ability to resist. That's entirely possible too, but then we're just talking arm-wrestling with 8:1 odds - good work if you can get it.

If you really really really feel this way, and are willing to sign comprehensive waivers, I'd be happily willing to bet you a pint of whatever beer you prefer that this isn't so.

Sorry if this is more than you or the other lurkers wanted to hear, but enough is enough. Please clarify what position you are willing to let nage start in, and whether or not you are comfortable with the possiblity of having your arm, nose, or ribs broken and/or shoulder/elbow dislocated, etc. This is not a threat or even a challenge. I'm really actually curious whether you've honestly thought about this like it seems - or you're bluffing for the sake of 'curiosity' or 'controversy'. I'm 100% comfortable with the possibility of buying you a pint after you refute my admittedly pathetic attempts to screw you into the mat with a pin - all in the name of science. My interest is entirely mechanical. I get your point, I just disagree.

Chhi'mèd

ps: I don't check this forum very often, so hopefully someone else will email the list I listen to if you take me up on this.
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Old 03-14-2006, 09:28 PM   #30
Nafis Zahir
 
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Darren Kennedy wrote:
I've been looking at the final lock or pin of aikido moves and can honestly say that without a passive uke they do not work. Don't just take my word for it , try it and see what you think , but after training with a couple of bjj people they gave me realization they only work if uke cooperates. All your views welcome!
I get so tired of the BJJ guys talking trash. This is such a lie! It all has to do with the person. If I apply a pin to a BJJ guy who is not cooperating, it will just be that much more painful to him. By the way, I once held down a 18 year old boy with a Ikkyo pin. He was very strong, worked out with weights, and very cut. I had him face down with a Ikkyo pin to his elbow. I only used one hand and I am more than twice his age! I told him that he was young and strong and he shouldn't let an old man like me hold him down with one hand. When I told him to get up, he replied, "I can't."

I sure that when you apply a pin to someone and they motion to get out of it, the angle may change and you will have to take another route. But that happens to all grapplers - BJJ practioners and I have seen it with Wrestlers. So spare me the garbage talk.

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Old 03-14-2006, 10:16 PM   #31
Upyu
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Nafis Zahir wrote:
I get so tired of the BJJ guys talking trash. This is such a lie! It all has to do with the person. If I apply a pin to a BJJ guy who is not cooperating, it will just be that much more painful to him. By the way, I once held down a 18 year old boy with a Ikkyo pin. He was very strong, worked out with weights, and very cut. I had him face down with a Ikkyo pin to his elbow. I only used one hand and I am more than twice his age! I told him that he was young and strong and he shouldn't let an old man like me hold him down with one hand. When I told him to get up, he replied, "I can't."

I sure that when you apply a pin to someone and they motion to get out of it, the angle may change and you will have to take another route. But that happens to all grapplers - BJJ practioners and I have seen it with Wrestlers. So spare me the garbage talk.
In all fairness I don't think the original poster was talking trash. He's just voicing a concern that he encountered after training with resisting opponents, and found it to be two different beasts alltogether.

That being said, your comparison of you holding down an 18 year old, heavier, more muscle, and cut than you are, isn't the best one.
Those people are the "easiest" to hold down (Even in BJJ)
It's always the ones that're heavy, maleable/soft, and know exactly how to use their structure/body that give the hardest time.

Which is why I said earlier, maybe for some people (im not pointing any fingers), more thought needs to be given as to what exactly is trying to be taught in the basic techniques...
(and imho, the whole changing of vectors and switching techs to still achieve the lock is still just scraping the surface. the lock should work no matter what resistance/recourse he uses without using "riki" on your part. ^^; )
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Old 03-14-2006, 10:51 PM   #32
Nafis Zahir
 
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Re: final lock doesn't work

I agree that you make a good point. I don't know if you study Aikido, but whenever I watch the Shihans do a demonstration, they are able to apply the technique or pin to any and everyone, even if the person is not cooperating (taking ukemi). That is the level I would like to reach. I have been able to apply pins to people who were 'soft', as you stated. I will admit that the application is different, but it is still not fair to say that they only work on someone who is cooperating.

Last edited by Nafis Zahir : 03-14-2006 at 10:53 PM.

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Old 03-15-2006, 12:59 AM   #33
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Darren,
Nothing works forever, even if I tied you up, given enough time you'd likely get out.

You should also remember your ability level vs theirs is always a factor when you are dealing with resistance. When my Bjj teacher pins me, I'm usually pretty pinned, however if I apply the same pin to him, it doesn't work, it's the same pin, but he's better then me. "Working" is always relative to who you want it to work on, and what you are capable of doing. If you try doing the same pin to a Bjj Purple belt that you do to a white belt your opinion as to it working or not will probably be very different.

All I can tell you is; from my experience, they (Aikido pins) work well when applied well, when pinning someone who is not more experienced then you.

-Chris Hein
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Old 03-15-2006, 01:03 AM   #34
batemanb
 
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
.

Or how about switching to gokyo from ikkyo if uke attempts to pull their arm out from under the pin? Or transitioning into juji-gatame or reverse juji? How many here exploit the Golgi tendon reflex for an ikkyo pin?
An effective way of stopping uke struggling is to try tickling them in the ribs, and no, I'm not joking. Obviously not everyone's ticklish, but worth a try . If that doesn't work, for ikkyo, just press one hand on the back of the elbow and lift uke's wrist with your other hand, it soon stops a struggle (recommend doing this slowly in a training environment).

Alternatively (there's quite a few ) sit across uke's arm (if you've seen any old film footage of Kaiso). Doing this applies a yonkyo effect on the back of the forearm using your shin, whilst applying a lot of body weight on uke's elbow. If you've stretched the arm well in the first instance, uke won't be rolling out much, nor will he be able to get up easily. Remembering that you have two free hands from this option...........

Or as you go into seiza for the pin, come down with your knee over the ribs. This will cause uke to expel a lot of air and take a lot of fight out of him, possibly, probably cracking ribs (again, recommend being very careful with this in practice).

These are just a couple of options, there's a whole lot more to explore....

elsewhere in the thread

Quote:
Adman wrote:
Yeah, like how long you've trained.
Quote:
Justin wrote:
i think this should read "no matter what I do" as you cant surley speak for everyone else here.
There's also been a lot of other good advice, basically requires more practice.

rgds
Bryan

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 03-15-2006, 01:17 AM   #35
Aristeia
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Re: final lock doesn't work

many of Aikido's pins are not that different from BJJ's omoplata - basically a bent arm shoulder lock. One of the guys I used to train is a police officer, and according to him the finishing pins were the most effective and most frequently used part of his Aikido arsenal. Apparently they can be used to good effect. Yes sometimes that will result in broken limbs if uke fights beyond movement that is safe for them. That's on them. I was rolling with a BJJ blue belt last year and happened to find my self in a position to apply a pin. He went straight to the mat and tapped immediately. So lets not jump to any premature conclusions on lack of effectiveness.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 03-15-2006, 03:07 AM   #36
Michael Meister
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Well most things have already been said. The point is, there is no 100% no fail technique, there is no 100% no fail pin either. It all depends on the people involved, on their ability, on there seriousness, on how much pain they are willing to take, and probable the phase of the moon, or whatever else comes your mind.
The point is, if a technique or a pin fails, you adjust and do something else. At least that's the theory... i admit I'm not yet very good at that.
And by the way, I have moved out of a pin, that could be seen as some variation of Nikkyo pin on the ground. I just moved my body around lock. It still would have been able for Nage, to adjust to another pin, but the objective was to find the weak points of the pin, and possible ways to limit my mobility to get out. Each round she changed the pin a bit, and at the end reached a point, where I was not willing to move out, though it still would have possible, with just a little more stress to the shoulder, than I was willing to take in a training environment.

I guess my point is, if something doesn't work, adjust. If you can't adjust, learn it. And if you're in a real fight, well learn real fast...
Life is dangerous, as matter of fact it' so dangerous, that you will not survive it.
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Old 03-15-2006, 03:15 AM   #37
Alex Megann
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Umm, Darren, since you are in London, why don't you go along to one of Kanetsuka Sensei's classes and tell him you don't think the pins work...

Alex

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Old 03-15-2006, 04:17 AM   #38
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Alex Megann wrote:
Umm, Darren, since you are in London, why don't you go along to one of Kanetsuka Sensei's classes and tell him you don't think the pins work...


just cringing with the thought of doing that

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 03-15-2006, 04:37 AM   #39
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Alex Megann wrote:
Umm, Darren, since you are in London, why don't you go along to one of Kanetsuka Sensei's classes and tell him you don't think the pins work...

Alex

http://www.ryushinkan.org/details.htm
Hear, hear!!

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Old 03-15-2006, 06:01 AM   #40
Peter Seth
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Dont just try to apply locks/pins in the traditional aikido manner ( they are ok for a baseline) - but things move on and you should constantly adapt to any situation.
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Old 03-15-2006, 06:05 AM   #41
raul rodrigo
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
Hear, hear!!
Yes, I think this is put up or shut up time. I think the only real problem here is you can't apply the lock properly or are being uke for people who have the same problem. No offense.
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Old 03-15-2006, 06:15 AM   #42
Nick Simpson
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Re: final lock doesn't work

I'd like to add that I have used the ikkyo pin to hold a friend down on a pool table and he got quite angry and shouted 'let me up' and thrashed around but he couldnt get up. So on that occaison mine worked.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 03-15-2006, 07:31 PM   #43
xuzen
 
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
...<snip>...It's always the ones that're heavy, malleable/soft, and know exactly how to use their structure/body that give the hardest time.
Ha ha ha John, this description sounds like my Judo coach. This type of players makes you feel like wrestling with a grizzly bear.

Quote:
Which is why I said earlier, maybe for some people (I'm not pointing any fingers), more thought needs to be given as to what exactly is trying to be taught in the basic techniques...
If the situation is kihon waza (basic techniques), then I agree that the emphasis should be given to learning the basic mechanic of the technique/lock.

Quote:
and IMHO, the whole changing of vectors and switching techs to still achieve the lock is still just scraping the surface. the lock should work no matter what resistance/recourse he uses without using "riki" on your part.
John, there is always two side to a coin, nothing is in such black and white and ideal. In an ideal world, our car would run with 100% fuel efficiency, there will be no drag, no tyre wear and tear, prices of fuel/gas will stay eternally low, and we will have an endless supply of gas/fuel.

John, I am saying that in an ideal setting, the single lock should do the job, and that is what kata teaches us. It ends with the lock, uke will be compliant and tap for submission.

In the not so ideal world, shite fumbles with the lock; uke is not compliant, and that is where having a plan B, C or D comes in handy and that is where I am pointing too... a good knowledge of transition is useful in such situation.

Again, such knowledge cannot be gain by just doing kata/kihon alone although kihon is a good starting point for better things to come. That is why an alive environment of training is good, which I do advocate.

You do BJJ, you should know, don't you. You get a pin, uke escape, what do you do? You transition to a more advantages position to reapply pin/lock/strangle...whatever.

OK. I get off my soap box now.

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Old 03-16-2006, 05:09 AM   #44
Jory Boling
 
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Just to reiterate what everyone else seems to be saying, the ikkyo pin from my original sensei is much different from the one that was applied by everybody else. However, at my new dojo, i don't think they even show the full pin. I started doing it and was told not to for risk of hurting my classmates. in another class they did the pin by sitting seiza on my arm. it was beyond my power to put up much of a fight in that circumstance. but then again, neither case was life or death.

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Old 03-16-2006, 02:14 PM   #45
Lyle Bogin
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Re: final lock doesn't work

I think we should differentiate between dojo pins and full restraining holds a bit.

My pins in the dojo reflect my desire to protect uke from unwanted injury. I think a good uke will break free of a pin lacking concentration and the essential elements. But once uke starts resisting with everything he she/has the pin must turn into a full restraining hold, complete with higher risk applications of force.
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Old 03-16-2006, 02:24 PM   #46
bratzo_barrena
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Re: final lock doesn't work

A pin must be effective by its own mechanics, some times implies some pain, some times don't. But considering that 'for protecting uke and avoid damage' pins are not supposed to be effective, and thus uke could break free is wrong. The pin is nopt being properly applied. Pins are effective by the way they act onte the body structure, without causing severe damage. And if some pain is necessary, so be it. a little pain doesn't kill anyone, does it?

Bratzo Barrena
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Old 03-16-2006, 02:45 PM   #47
Adam Alexander
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
I think it's more to do with getting the structural and anatomical juxtapositions correct more than progamming "muscle-memory". If you're training incorrectly, you're imprinting an incorrect "muscle-memory" anyway.
Each his own. I find that in my style, there's more of stealing the technique and having to experiment to get the right positioning, timing, etc.

In my style, I'd say that "training incorrectly" would be a case of not training conscientously and finding the technique in the movement.
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Old 03-16-2006, 04:02 PM   #48
eyrie
 
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Well Jean, how would the average Joe know if what they were doing was correct, even if they trained conscientiously? I would say that Darren is a conscientious student, otherwise he would not have asked the question. And if he thought it was correct, he wouldn't be asking. Granted there might be some "stealing" of technique involved, but this is really basic stuff that his instructor should have covered, prior to experimentation - for training safety reasons.

To each their own, perhaps. But I wish people would get over this "s3cr3t d34dly knowledge" rubbish. Aikido is no more and no less devastating than any other martial art. This stuff is easily explained and based on physical laws and anatomical structures. That we choose not to apply these techniques brutally in training is merely in "the way".

Ignatius
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Old 03-16-2006, 04:30 PM   #49
Skribbles
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Re: final lock doesn't work

Quote:
Well this depends on a few factors. First what pins are you applying? some of Aikido's pins have been "softend" so people don't complain as much during training. A good example of this is the Ikkyo pin as it is commonly applied, you just lay the arm down next to the person and hold it there with both arms, any able person will just roll over their own arm and get out from there.
k so im sure someone else may have commented on this already but i dont got enough time to read the whole thread... just got to this and wanted to make a comment before i go to work

...
if you put their elbow between your legs and apply pressure it causes some discomfort in their elbow.. rather its effective or not i dunno im only a yellowbelt but it seemed to work on me when i was trying to wiggle outta my sensai's ikkyo pin hehe
anywho <3
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Old 03-16-2006, 05:28 PM   #50
Mark Freeman
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Re: final lock doesn't work

I can only agree with those that have said if an aikido lock is applied properly it is very effective.
Of course, an ikkyo take down and pin can be done quite ineffectively, but done properly it is very difficult to escape from. If you really want to stop someone struggling, lift the knee closest to the body and roll your shin bone across the arm about an inch or so just above the elbow. The effect this has as it rolls the muscle away from a nerve spot that lies beneath, is usually enough to stop them.
Try it, but as this is aikido, be very aware of uke's reaction and don't apply any more pressure than is needed

regards,
Mark

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Knife Work fatebass21 Weapons 28 02-01-2005 03:10 PM


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