Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Weapons

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-16-2006, 01:04 PM   #26
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,638
United_States
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

All of the techniques are important to the system, as a whole. Of coarse beginners are going to be terrible at weapons, they will also be terrible at tai no henko, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be doing it, the only way you can get better is to train. I know a teacher who didn't teach free practice Jiyu waza until 1st kyu, then he had a bunch of students ready to become shodan's, and they were all horrible at free movement, he was shocked and upset. But the reason this happened is because he didn't think they should be practicing such an advanced practice till later, and he thought they would just be good at free practice over night once they became black belts! needless to say, he had to put in lots of effort with these guys to get their jiyu waza skills up to par, and he now trains Jiyu waza from the beginning, and his students are much better now.

Leaving out part of the training just makes your students lag in their training.

-Chris

p.s. My earlier comment is not saying that weapons makes your empty hand body movement better, I'm saying that there is no empty hand movement in Aikido, it's and armed system.

Last edited by ChrisHein : 03-16-2006 at 01:07 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2006, 03:09 PM   #27
Gabriella Wrigholm
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 17
Sweden
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
Defence against weapon isn't important for beginners.
Why not? Because it's more important to teach them more simple things at first? Or is there another reason?
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2006, 10:15 AM   #28
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
Location: Gateshead
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 916
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Quote:
Defence against weapon isn't important for beginners.
What level do you suggest tachi dori, jo dori, jo waza etc etc are done? Nidan? Sandan? Yondan...

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2006, 06:16 AM   #29
karim\\\
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 23
Egypt
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Quote:
John Chapman wrote:
I agree with all of this. It most definitely does improve the body movement. Moving the arms but not the shoulders means moving from the centre, ie the pelvis. Tension in the arms is felt in the belly rather than the shoulders. Using your empty hands as if they were connected by the handle of a sword promotes the movement from your centre. Without this feeling the arms move independently and the tension is then felt in the shoulders. Try it, it's almost magical.
so i must originate my movement from my center (pelvis) while executing the technique, and with the same breathing sequence enter inhale then throw exhale right??
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2006, 08:48 AM   #30
John (King John)
 
John (King John)'s Avatar
Dojo: Prince Bishops Durham/ White Rose
Location: Durham (north east England)
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 32
England
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Sounds good to me!

Grab my arm.....The other arm.....MY other arm
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2006, 11:22 AM   #31
Qatana
 
Qatana's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Petaluma, Petaluma,CA
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 834
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Karim., stop worrying about when to breathe and making things more difficult for yourself. Just keep training, it WILL come to you.

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2006, 02:21 PM   #32
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,638
United_States
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Quote:
Jo Adell wrote:
Karim., stop worrying about when to breathe and making things more difficult for yourself. Just keep training, it WILL come to you.
probably the best advice given to date.

-Chris
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2006, 09:57 PM   #33
tabascoisgood2
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

I am relatively new to Aikido, but I remember hearing - when training with a bokken, move as is empty handed. When training empty handed move as if you were handling a bokken. Weapons training has helped me understand Aikido greatly. My Sensei (Gleason Sensei) is a great advocate of weapons training early on. He actually has a video that will be available to the general public shortly that is great in explaining and showing the relation between taijutsu and kenjutsu.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2006, 10:02 AM   #34
roosvelt
Location: Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 177
Canada
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Quote:
Gabriella Wrigholm wrote:
Why not? Because it's more important to teach them more simple things at first?

Yes.

And do you know any black belt who can really defence himself against a guy with a real sword?
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2006, 10:06 AM   #35
roosvelt
Location: Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 177
Canada
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Quote:
Jo Adell wrote:
Karim., stop worrying about when to breathe and making things more difficult for yourself. Just keep training, it WILL come to you.
But don't do "reverse" breathing.

If you don't train breathing, you have more than 50% that it NEVER come to you.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2006, 11:28 AM   #36
Dirk Hanss
 
Dirk Hanss's Avatar
Dojo: Aikidoschule Trier
Location: Merzkirchen
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 471
Germany
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
But don't do "reverse" breathing.

If you don't train breathing, you have more than 50% that it NEVER come to you.
Wonderful Roosevelt,
I always thought that less than 20% of all aikidoka would ever get IT. So maybe we are better off, if we do not train breathing

Regards Dirk
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2006, 11:44 AM   #37
Gabriella Wrigholm
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 17
Sweden
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
Yes.

And do you know any black belt who can really defence himself against a guy with a real sword?
Good point. But people probably can't on higher levels either but we still practice it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2006, 11:44 AM   #38
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,638
United_States
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
Yes.

And do you know any black belt who can really defence himself against a guy with a real sword?

This is a question we should really be trying to find an answer too. I wish the Aikido community at large would stop arguing about: magic powers, historical facts, pseudo intellectualism, pseudo spiritualism, fantasy/roll playing, and other trivial bits, and instead try and figure out if a black belt could really stop a guy with a sword. This of coarse is my wish, and of coarse the goal of stopping a man with a sword is kind of a trivial bit if you think about it.

-Chris
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2006, 01:10 PM   #39
MaryKaye
Dojo: Seattle Ki Society
Location: Seattle
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 522
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

On Saturday I spent an hour of class trying to improve my forward rolls by rolling and rolling (and working with some kids trying to do the same), and then an hour of class trying to improve them by rolling with a weapon (jo, then bokken) in hand. Wow! I felt a lot less stuck after the second hour. The big piece of wood really spotlights certain deficiencies.

Mary Kaye
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2006, 02:13 PM   #40
thomas_dixon
Location: Florida, USA
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 185
United_States
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote:
In FMA we start with weapons and later the hands.

IMHO, since Aikido comes from ken-jutsu, it halps make sense of why we move the way we do.
Yeah the movements are practically the same for stick, knife and hand.

Aikido mainly comes from Daito Ryu jujistu iirc, of course jj was (is) the empty handed compliment to kenjutsu, etc.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2006, 07:56 PM   #41
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,638
United_States
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Quote:
Thomas Dixon wrote:
of course jj was (is) the empty handed compliment to kenjutsu, etc.
That's not a true statement. Jiu jutsu is the study of the principal of Jiu, it can be taught (and is taught) with and without weapons.

-Chris Hein
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2006, 05:23 AM   #42
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
And do you know any black belt who can really defence himself against a guy with a real sword?
Yes. but the question is a bit vague, and may I add a bit pointless.

Is the guy with a real sword:-

1/ Trained as a swordsman, or just a guy that happens to have picked one up?
2/ is it in a training environment or does the the guy actually intend to commit serious harm?

There are many thousands of aikido blackbelts around the world, some/many would I'm sure completely chicken out if faced with a real sword in a non training off the mat situation. And I am sure there are some, who would quietly go about the business of disarming the sword wielder.

We cannot train for 'real' with live weapons, by that I don't mean we can't train with live weapons, just that the intent to kill is not a training option, so we never actually know what this is like until we come face to face with someone intent on killing. The chances are a non trained swordsman would choose a different weapon, probably a gun, a trained swordsman would probably have enough self control to not want to kill in the first place.

Just a few thoughts FWIW.

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2006, 06:05 AM   #43
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
Location: Gateshead
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 916
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

I'd chicken out...

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2006, 06:47 AM   #44
John (King John)
 
John (King John)'s Avatar
Dojo: Prince Bishops Durham/ White Rose
Location: Durham (north east England)
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 32
England
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Quote:
Nick Simpson wrote:
I'd chicken out...
What if you had no choice? Would you then 'chicken in'?

Grab my arm.....The other arm.....MY other arm
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2006, 06:51 AM   #45
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
Location: Gateshead
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 916
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

I'd pick up the biggest, heaviest household implement I could find and go apesh*t.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2006, 06:56 AM   #46
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Quote:
Nick Simpson wrote:
I'd pick up the biggest, heaviest household implement I could find and go apesh*t.
Then the question becomes:- Could an aikido black belt cope with a guy with a heavy household implement going apesh*t??

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2006, 06:59 AM   #47
John (King John)
 
John (King John)'s Avatar
Dojo: Prince Bishops Durham/ White Rose
Location: Durham (north east England)
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 32
England
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

I see, so you expect to be attacked by a sword-weilding maniac in a domestic environment. Interesting.

Grab my arm.....The other arm.....MY other arm
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2006, 07:05 AM   #48
Steve Mullen
Dojo: White Rose (Sunderland)
Location: Washington
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 270
England
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

the trick here is to cry like a baby, cry so hard and so loud that they turn away in disgust.....then its time to kick some back

"No matter your pretence, you are what you are and nothing more." - Kenshiro Abbe Shihan
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2006, 07:08 AM   #49
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
Location: Gateshead
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 916
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Well, not really, but its not too far out of the question is it? My house is arguably a domestic environment (some would say no, but thats another story), it has two swords in it. All we need is the maniac to get a hold of one of them and bobs your uncle...

Quote:
Then the question becomes:- Could an aikido black belt cope with a guy with a heavy household implement going apesh*t??
"Some aikidoka would prefer to deal with a guy with a heavy household implement going apesh*t this way. Now thats not wrong, but I like to do it this way..."


They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2006, 03:47 PM   #50
Michael O'Brien
Dojo: Nashville Aikikai
Location: Nashville, Tn
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 288
United_States
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Back to topic a little bit, that is if we are done with sword wielding maniacs locked in mortal combat with guys going apesh!t with heavy household appliances. LOL

We did some weapons work today in class and afterwords I talked with Sensei about it and he said that we use weapons with beginners because it helps reinforce the footwork and changing hanmi smoothly. He stated weapons work, specifically jo, also helps with the hand techniques but at lower ranks it is more for footwork than anything else.

Just another .02 in the bucket.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido of Northern VA Seminars - Doran-sensei in Northern Virginia, March 2015



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Beginners Retention Rates akiy Teaching 45 04-06-2006 12:13 AM
Weapon training music Amaranto Weapons 5 01-16-2006 01:24 PM
Does Budo require a sense of shame? senshincenter General 72 09-12-2005 03:06 PM
Training iai as a part of aikido Stefaan Six General 4 07-27-2005 07:20 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:04 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate