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Old 03-17-2006, 03:28 PM   #51
Michael Douglas
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

I apologise for going back to this ;

Ted Ehara wrote "At the old taigi take a look at Taigi 12 Katatedori Ry temochi. The first technique is no touch because the uke is avoiding an atemi. The second technique is also no touch when the uke is wrapped up into an unstable postion."

I'm sorry for going back so many posts but I just HAD to give
my response to Taigi 12.
Some idiot running almost towards a fella who holds his arm
up and the first idiot flops himself to the ground for fun.
Most of the rest of that video is the same awful rubbish.
I cannot comprehend who anybody here can think that is even
related to good martail arts !
What is it with this hooked-fish-flopping behaviour of Uke ?
Amazing and seriously EMBARRASING if any of these guys
train in the same art as yourself.
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Old 03-17-2006, 03:59 PM   #52
Mark Freeman
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Hmmm, well, how do I say this...

I think Mr. S. is in some ways correct when he says "only aikidoka would react this way". Please understand when I say this that I say it as much about myself **in certain circumstances** as I might say it about others. There is a very fine line here...I don't always know where it is. I don't think I can believe Watanabe Sensei's demo to be "real". There were some things in the ki society video that are the same...but I have been thrown [without overt cooperation] in some pretty amazing ways...but if conditioning was the reason, how would I as uke know?

Best,
Ron
I have no problem with the statement "only akidoka would react this way" this is a given, we train to make ukemi for our own benefit. Sometimes 'no touch' is the result of ukemi skillfully avoiding a strike. Something a non aikidoka may not be able to do, and they may have the bruises to show for it.
However sometimes it is more than this. Watanabe Sensei's demonstration does stretch credulity, but if we write it off as not 'real' then are we not effectively calling him a charlatan, or is it that "this would not happen in a 'real' situation ( whatever that is ).
The only explanation I can offer to explain the quite spectacular flip that the uke executes a few feet in front of Watanabe, is that the ukes mind was "thrown" and his body had no choice but to follow.
If the Uke did it of his own accord, this would be a sham.
So I hope that my explanation has some truth in it as I would hate to think that it was otherwise.

If your aikido practice relys on making contact, then your practice progresses to the point where technique is applied skillfully with the minimum of effort, if your aikido practice utilises the mind of the attacker, then physical contact is not always necessary. Maybe Watanabe Sensei has developed this to a point much further than most.

We might remind ourselves of the 'beginners mind' remeber when we first stepped onto the mat and everything was possible. Let's not think of ourselves as able to know where the limits of this fantastic art that we practice are.

Cheers,
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 03-17-2006, 04:05 PM   #53
Michael O'Brien
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

More good food for thought Mark.


Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
We might remind ourselves of the 'beginners mind' remeber when we first stepped onto the mat and everything was possible. Let's not think of ourselves as able to know where the limits of this fantastic art that we practice are.

Cheers,
Mark
This quote brings to mind the quote I heard once:

The more I learn the more I realize how little I really know.
(Or something to that effect)

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
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Old 03-17-2006, 04:18 PM   #54
bratzo_barrena
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
The only explanation I can offer to explain the quite spectacular flip that the uke executes a few feet in front of Watanabe, is that the ukes mind was "thrown" and his body had no choice but to follow.
Mark,
If it were possible to 'throw anyone's mind' from a distance (like in the video of Watanabe sensei) and for that cause the body to follow, thus throwing the person at will, then there would be no reason to train any other technique. That would be the perfect, safest, and only technique necessary ever.
If you can throw people at will without touching, from a safe distance, then nobody would be able to even get close to you, and if they, for any circumstancial reason, could reach you, then you could use this same power and throw him without any technique. JUST THIS POWER.
Sorry mike, but,yes, I would say that what Watanabe sensei is doing seems to be a lot of crap.
But any one wants to believe, it's their choice.

Bratzo Barrena
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Aikido Goshin Dojo
Doral, FL
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Old 03-17-2006, 04:35 PM   #55
Michael Douglas
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Mark Freeman wrote : " ... Watanabe Sensei's demonstration does stretch credulity, but if we write it off as not 'real' then are we not effectively calling him a charlatan, or is it that "this would not happen in a 'real' situation ..."

I would say that I am not calling (in these Taigi clips) the Nage
a charlatan, but that I am definitely calling the performance
nonesense.
If there needs to be at least one charlatan, then I nominate
the ridiculous Uke.
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Old 03-19-2006, 11:23 AM   #56
tedehara
 
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Quote:
Bratzo Barrena wrote:
Mr. Ted Ehara, I just saw the video you indicated and if I were to guide my opinion on this video, I would agree with mr. Szczepan Janczuk, that no-hold throws are just BS...
Certainly.

The better the aikido, the more fake it looks.

Although the people in those videos are not as well know as Aikikai instructors, they were some of the top people in the Ki Society at that time.

Years ago, I was listening to a stunt man/martial artist who worked with Jackie Chan. He was also the model for a video game. When the programmers asked him for some type of "magical weapon" for his character. He said, "I can position myself like I'm holding a ball. Then he can create this ball of Chi which he can fire out at others." Maybe that's what people imagine when they hear about "no-touch throws"

Actually a no-touch throw is simply an extension of a regular throw. There is really nothing special about it. eek!

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 03-20-2006, 07:47 AM   #57
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
Actually a no-touch throw is simply an extension of a regular throw. There is really nothing special about it. eek!
non, Ted. In order to execute physically any throw, some basic principles must be preserved. None of this technique do it. And if base is false, any extension will be false.

Nagababa

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Old 03-20-2006, 02:30 PM   #58
tedehara
 
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
non, Ted. In order to execute physically any throw, some basic principles must be preserved. None of this technique do it. And if base is false, any extension will be false.
Ma-ai, Kokyu, taking up slack, etc. are all observed. However these are principles of the mind. Principles that are not physical would apply directly to a no-touch throw.

You can deny that people from O Sensei on down, from many different schools/styles, have done no-touch throws. If you don't believe it can't be done, then you can't do it.

People used to think that way about the four minute mile. But then someone said, "Why can't I run faster?"

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 03-20-2006, 06:53 PM   #59
Michael Douglas
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Ted Ehara wrote : "People used to think that way about the four minute mile. But then someone said, "Why can't I run faster?""
Nope.
Didn't.
Roger Bannister simply trained well, ran great, and found at the end of his mile
that he had done it in less than four minutes.
He ran it on two legs, on the same shoes as his competitors, on the
same course.
He didn't train his students to fall over when he waved his hands at their faces !

And : "Actually a no-touch throw is simply an extension of a regular throw."
Well, while achieving no-touch Aikido throws requires BOTH uke and nage
to have trained in normal touchy-throws, the 'extension' is an extension of
belief. If that is accepted, then no-touch throws are valid in the uke-nage
dojo context, but still totally invalid as martial application.

THEY GIVE AIKIDO A BAD NAME
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Old 03-21-2006, 01:04 AM   #60
Adman
 
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote:
Well, while achieving no-touch Aikido throws requires BOTH uke and nage to have trained in normal touchy-throws, the 'extension' is an extension of belief.
I was going to suggest it is sometimes an extension of belief. But then thought maybe it *is* always an extension of belief.
Quote:
If that is accepted, then no-touch throws are valid in the uke-nage
dojo context, but still totally invalid as martial application.
???? Sorry, I was doing fine with what you were saying, until that last bit in bold. Are you saying invalid if ... let's say, someone was training to always pull off a particular technique without ever touching? Or are you saying if someone had a legitimate way of making another fall without contact (on a consistant basis) -- that would be invalid?

<subconscious>
Good God! I'm going to get hit! Must avoid! SPLATTT!
</subconscious>
or
<subconscious>
Must grab arm ... Must grab arm! Why can't I grab it? Why can't I grab ... oh, there it is. WHAMMM!
</subconscious>


Or are you referring to suspending dis-belief?
<conscious>
Okay, I'll duck and fall down ... but I'm not convinced.
<conscious>

thanks,
Adam
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Old 03-21-2006, 05:03 PM   #61
Michael Douglas
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Yeah, sorry Adam, I made myself unclear.
What I mean is that training as if no-touch throws are martially effective is pointless because of the miniscule chance of one working against an assailant who does not practice Aikido.
Training them in the dojo is fine, ... as long as you don't take them seriously.

"... if someone had a legitimate way of making another fall without contact (on a consistant basis) "
That would be amazing, fantastic, and in my opinion worthy of a whole matial art! Unfortunately there is at least one martial art (OK, I saw some wierdos in Japan on 'kick-ass-moves semi-documentary) which tries to do this, and as far as I can see, fails.
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Old 03-22-2006, 03:21 AM   #62
Mark Freeman
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote:
And : "Actually a no-touch throw is simply an extension of a regular throw."
Well, while achieving no-touch Aikido throws requires BOTH uke and nage
to have trained in normal touchy-throws, the 'extension' is an extension of
belief. If that is accepted, then no-touch throws are valid in the uke-nage
dojo context, but still totally invalid as martial application.

THEY GIVE AIKIDO A BAD NAME
How and why no touch throws work have been discussed many times on these fora and just about all agree that they are often a case of uke skillfully avoiding contact with what could be a damaging strike. Nothing wrong with that. They can also be a result of tori being just a fraction ahead of uke's grab so that uke continues to try to grasp the target and is being lead to the position where a roll is the only way to maintain co-ordination. There is also the third way which some may have come across, but not by any means all, where tori works directly with uke's mind, and performs the throw at this level, uke's body has little choice but to follow the mind. This is an extension on the second example given.

Not all teachers have learned this practice, but some have. Not all aikidoka can perform the, but some can. But to rubbish a part of aikido practice because it doesn't fit in with your model of how it should be done is short sighted.

Good aikido is good aikido whatever style/school you practice. It all boils down to whether you are following the principles of aiki.

No touch throws do not "give aikido a bad name" unless your understanding of how and why they are applied is lacking.
O Sensei did them, and that is good enough for me. If he is guilty of giving aikido a bad name, then maybe it's because he didn't have the benefit of Mr Douglas' wisdom.

regards,
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 05-11-2006, 03:56 AM   #63
David Yap
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From no-hand throw to no-hand knockout

This is the extreme!!

George Dillman on National Geographic

Now this really beats Takeda Sokaku, O sensei and even Watanabe shihan (Aikikai Hombu).

The pressure points do work on most people but ole George really outdid everyone with his no-touch knockouts this time. I heard of lightning balls that originated from outer space but throwing ki (chi) balls is something else

NG also said that his students include Mohammad Ali and the late Bruce Lee. As I recalled, the pictures with Mohammad Ali was taken at a fight promotion when ole George took students to visit the gym where Ali was training for his fight. The pic with Bruce Lee was taken at the Long Beach karate tournament in the 70's.

Wow!!

David Y
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Old 05-11-2006, 12:05 PM   #64
James Kelly
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

the tongue-in-cheek thing was rich.
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Old 05-14-2006, 09:31 AM   #65
Suwariwazaman
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Hello I thought this relationship between uke and nage was called "Inwashi" Or key blending movements ! Just going back to few posts ago. This movement is the foundation not only for aiki but all MA all over the world. This I know! Unless uke doesnt move or react then nage gets to have a field day. The energy or dynamics have to be in play. I do have a video of Saito Sensei doing such a throw in a demonstration, but Sensei is going a bokken takeaway. He only touches the bokken. I think this throw is possible without grabing a hand technique or gi. I believe it is in the hips. and the energy of uke that makes it happen. If I am off base then my aplogizes. I do believe a throw can be done like this under real circumstances if the energy exists. It can only work if nage is prepared and the just the right situation exist. OSensei did do these throws and from what I have heard the uke's were not coming in like they were dancing. They applied the force necessary, and OSensei demonstrated this with effectiveness. I have seen the throw personally also which made me a believer. Like I said it takes the right situation, Ki and timing for this to work in a real situation. I dont believe there is anything diluted in Aikido.

Thanks Jamie
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Old 05-14-2006, 03:23 PM   #66
Jimmy L
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

www3.youtube.com/watch?v=bCjySZuVDkQ&search=morihei

Is this a further example of above?
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Old 05-14-2006, 06:27 PM   #67
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Quote:
Jamie Loan wrote:
www3.youtube.com/watch?v=bCjySZuVDkQ&search=morihei

Is this a further example of above?
I'm not personally sure, but I've seen Sensei Barrish do the ma'ai/musubi pressure thing at the very beginning of the video. I always assumed it was to give a proper sense of ma'ai and tracking. ...teaching not to get up before there's an opening which would allow it.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 06-29-2006, 07:00 AM   #68
Thalib
 
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Quote:
Jamie Loan wrote:
www3.youtube.com/watch?v=bCjySZuVDkQ&search=morihei

Is this a further example of above?
I think it's probably more like Watanabe-shihan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3viOy-bQSyU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rHuQiugSks

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Old 06-29-2006, 08:04 AM   #69
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Reading this thread reminds me of my first MMA class. I was working on passing the open guard from standing. I had my partner on his back and he was up-kicking and attacking my knee's, feet, face, etc. I was having a lot of trouble, I couldn't get in on him before he could stand back up. I got my coach over and I asked what I was doing wrong. This is what he told me:

"Sometimes you have to eat a kick to get inside".

This changed the way I trained and fight. I realized that I had been so focused on reacting to his attacks and avoiding contact that I had forgot this was a fight. Now when I hear these marital chess games of "He has to take ukemi or take a crushing blow" I realize that most people don't realize taking the crushing blow might not hurt that bad and might let you hurt your opponent. I read above of an example of a TKD guy attacking an aikido guy.

The aikido version was like this

1) tkd guy throws kick
2) aikido guy steps inside and throws punch
3) tkd guy either takes a fall or takes a punch that ends the fight.

Why isn't there a forth option.

4) tkd guy had his hands up and chin tucked, absorbs the blow and attacks again.

If I want to hit you, I'll take your hit. Why? Because I get punched in the face hard at least 4 times a week. Its not a big deal to me anymore. So unless you hit really really hard, I'm still going to keep hitting you.

A little more on subject with no touch throws. A lot of these seem to depend on the fact that uke does not track his target. He throws a punch, but he doesn't try to track his target in a lot of cases. This leads to him punching where the guy was and losing some balance. Usually the nage will then make a motion that the uke over reacts to and takes ukemi as a result. As it was posted above I agree with the assertion that no touch throws work best on other aikidoka. Its mostly a mental game. Its like guys who do pressure point knock outs. It seems to work 100% on their students, but not so well on guys from the local press. The reason being the students are in awe of their sensei. This gives him the power he needs to make just about anything work on them. It gets even more obtuse when they know it is for a demo. Most people know that for demo's you want to be a very good uke, to a fault. Even in judo demos you give a little jump into that throw. Its safe to say that with the right hero worshiping uke it would be possible to point your finger at him and say "bzzzt" and have him fall down. Its not a fault of aikido, or kempo, or any other martial art though. Its a fault of people who let themselves believe too much and question too little.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 06-29-2006, 08:47 AM   #70
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Nice post Don.

Thanks,
Ron

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Old 06-29-2006, 12:51 PM   #71
Richard Langridge
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Thanks Don, I have to admit I've always been a bit skeptical of the "finishing" atemi.
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Old 06-29-2006, 12:53 PM   #72
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Don,

Once again, you experience and strategies parallel my own. I will "eat" strikes too. I make the choice of where the opening is etc.

I see no issue with this or conflict with aikido, I think we train this way all the time. we establish kamae, open a little to allow for the attack, then move off line to counter.

I think the difference is in a real fight, you can't always compensate for the speed, distance etc, so you end up "eating" it to get the advantage.
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Old 06-29-2006, 02:38 PM   #73
Talon
 
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

No touch throws are best shown in Yellow Bamboo....Man those guys are good.....

YES I'm KIDDING!!!
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Old 06-29-2006, 09:33 PM   #74
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Quote:
"Sometimes you have to eat a kick to get inside".
I agree this is a very common, and effective strategy. I had a friend who did Muay Thai and that was the kind of thing he was very committed to. It's certainly true that people who take this appraoch and condition for it, are not so easy to take down with one or two tough hits. Someone like me who hasn't been hit hard in quite some time wil probably be affected more by any given strike, than someone who gets hit regularly. I'm pretty sure the nervous system adapts to this sort of thing, which is why some people can be described as having a glass jaw.

Quote:
4) tkd guy had his hands up and chin tucked, absorbs the blow and attacks again.
I think this is why many people discount Aikido. Unless the strike penetrates enough to effectively take away the attackers balance, the attacker will keep attacking. There's also the "hinge" effect where penetrating off-center will just spin the attacker, which can actually help get one hit.

Quote:
A little more on subject with no touch throws. A lot of these seem to depend on the fact that uke does not track his target.
To me it seems like these are cases where uke tracks very specifically...with tunnel vision. They are so fixated on one particular point of attack that they adjust their entire body (compromising it's balance) for the sake of connecting to that one point.

Quote:
He throws a punch, but he doesn't try to track his target in a lot of cases. This leads to him punching where the guy was and losing some balance.
I see what you mean regarding punches but simply punching where someone was shouldn't cause someone to lose their balance...even in no-touch throws...I think. When uke doesn't track the moving target, but fixates on where the target was,. to me this reminds me more of problematic "touch" throws. In the no-touch throws, from what little I can tell, it appears as though uke always moves in accordance with the movement of nage. He throws himself because he's tracking the imagine point of contact in his own body, with that of the connecting part in nage.

Quote:
As it was posted above I agree with the assertion that no touch throws work best on other aikidoka. Its mostly a mental game.
I agree. I think of no-touch throws as an abstract exercise in responsiveness. I've never seen them in person, though I have experienced "no-touch pressure" which taught me a bit about ma'ai and perceiving an opening. It's quite possible, for all I really know, that it was more a conditioned response than anything else, but it seems to have had at least some tangible results in how I take ukemi. It seems to have made me, generally speaking, more responsive and open minded in how to move my body spontaneously. I'm still have pronounced problems with taking someone's balance though, and that's the part which is supposed to allow me to protect myself the most.

Quote:
Its a fault of people who let themselves believe too much and question too little.
Well said. Question everything.
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-01-2006, 05:08 AM   #75
Mark Freeman
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

I find the whole idea of 'eating' a strike to get 'inside' interesting. I can see how it might work with empty handed strikes, but what happens when the hand has a blade in it? Are you going to eat a stab to gain advantage? If you train to take a blow first, isn't this going to put you at a distinct advantage when the assailant is armed?

just a few thoughts,

regards,

Mark

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