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Old 03-15-2006, 09:49 PM   #26
Michael O'Brien
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
For example he may go out of line and make counter or simply redirecting your counter. It is physically possible, because our exemplary TKD friend firmly keeps his balance so he has a lot of choices what to do.
According to your previous example this would not actually be possible. Per you, our TKD friend has just thrown an incredibly hard and fast kick. If someone steps offline and closes as soon as that kicks starts to come in then his momentum is carrying him rapidly forward. As he comes forward if suddenly he has a fist coming into the center of his face just as rapidly as his kick is going out he has 2, and only 2, choices at that time. Go down, or take ukemi in Aikido terms, or get his nose splattered like a watermelon falling off the back of a truck.

In TKD, when your friend started learning as a young white belt I bet his technique wasn't quite so sharp and firmly balanced as it is now. I bet someone "took it easy" on him and let his technique "work" so he could acutally learn what was going on as he is was figuring out his footwork, attacks, and blocks. Now that he is that foundation he is a formidable weapon and not to be taken lightly.

Apply that train of thought to Aikido now; Yes, rank beginners fumble with footwork, locks, etc and uke "follows them around and takes a fall" so that nage can learn what is going on. However, once the technique is learned uke takes the fall for a whole new reason. Because nage can break uke in half if ukemi isn't taken.

In TKD if you don't get out of the way of a punch or kick you get hit in the chest. In Aikido if uke doesn't roll out of a throw then the shoulder gets broken or dislocated.

Think about it.

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for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
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Old 03-15-2006, 11:13 PM   #27
tedehara
 
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
I'm very interested by these small movements that don't touch attacker, but make big feelings. Would you like to provide an exemple?
At the old taigi take a look at Taigi 12 Katatedori Ryōtemochi. The first technique is no touch because the uke is avoiding an atemi. The second technique is also no touch when the uke is wrapped up into an unstable postion.

The uke attacks strongly, which gives the nage something to work with. The nage is also able to have a feeling of empathy with the uke, so he knows when to move. In both techniques the nage is able to project a big feeling to his movements. This leaves no room for doubt from the uke.

I'd like to add that I agree with Bratzo Barrena, in that you can't "force" a no touch throw. It just happens.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 03-15-2006, 11:43 PM   #28
tedehara
 
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
...The mind is for me where the aikido takes place, the body just follows the mind. When the 'mental aikido' takes place if the body is co-ordinated, then if the mental aikido is effortless, the body will create it in the physical world....regards,
Mark
It's been said that the body has weight, color and shape while the mind has no weight, color or shape. When you confront an opponent, you can see their body but cannot see their mind. Yet it seems the techniques of Aikido encourages people to understand this psychological aspect of themselves and in others.

Of course practice doesn't hurt either! You have to bring all this high-falutin' theory down into your daily training.

Last edited by tedehara : 03-15-2006 at 11:46 PM.

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Old 03-16-2006, 02:47 AM   #29
happysod
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Quote:
The first technique is no touch because the uke is avoiding an atemi
This is funny as both you and Dr Seuss are actually saying the same thing - the no-touch is due to specific responses (often deliberately trained). If the learned response of that uke was to cover and slip, I doubt that the no-touch would have been evident.

As I said before, you can get a "no-touch" throw to happen, either because of the defensive reaction of your uke or a mistake on ukes part. However, they only happen when you're attempting to use an actual technique which will throw the same uke with contact. I hate to admit it, I'm with Sze here, if you're intent is to use a no-touch throw, you're relying heavily on uke to be receptive and/or a klutz.

Mark - baad man, all I can say is "play away"
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Old 03-16-2006, 04:21 AM   #30
Mark Freeman
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
It's been said that the body has weight, color and shape while the mind has no weight, color or shape. When you confront an opponent, you can see their body but cannot see their mind. Yet it seems the techniques of Aikido encourages people to understand this psychological aspect of themselves and in others.

Of course practice doesn't hurt either! You have to bring all this high-falutin' theory down into your daily training.
Ted,
Of course practice not hurting has two positive meanings here, and
it is not theory that we are speaking about, rather a part of aikido practice that is given more focus in some schools than others.

Thanks for the video links, I enjoyed watching them, some very smooth, elegant aikido. The no touch throws I saw looked 'real' in that at no time did it look like the uke was 'weak'.
I've seen some good film of O Sensei performing some brilliant no touch throws, so it always amazes me that there is any discussion at all about their validity.

Cheers,
Mark

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Old 03-16-2006, 04:41 AM   #31
Mark Freeman
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Quote:
Ian Hurst wrote:
As I said before, you can get a "no-touch" throw to happen, either because of the defensive reaction of your uke or a mistake on ukes part. However, they only happen when you're attempting to use an actual technique which will throw the same uke with contact. I hate to admit it, I'm with Sze here, if you're intent is to use a no-touch throw, you're relying heavily on uke to be receptive and/or a klutz.

Mark - baad man, all I can say is "play away"
I'll keep it clean here Ian

Maybe the focus of our intent should be on our own execution of aikido, rather than relying on the uke for anything other than a decent commited attack. As skill increases in timing, co-ordination and ki/mind extention, dealing with any sort of uke becomes easier.
I certainly wouldn't expect to perform a no touch throw on someone who is not a trained uke, but that doesn't mean it might not happen. I hope I wouldn't expect anything particular to happen as from an aikido point of view, that seems quite limiting.

cheers
Mark

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Old 03-16-2006, 08:14 AM   #32
bratzo_barrena
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Mr. Ted Ehara, I just saw the video you indicated and if I were to guide my opinion on this video, I would agree with mr. Szczepan Janczuk, that no-hold throws are just BS.
In this video ukes are obviuosly too condescendent, and throw thelselves. Maybe in the first throw, yes, they really need to fall that way to avoid the atemi, but in the second throw, they don't really need to fall that way. I don't think that video is a good example. Of course I don't think any video wolud be a good example, no-touch throws is something that needs to be felt, not seen, to be believed.

MR. Szczepan Janczuk , I didn't say that I only understan Aikido, and whoever doesn't agree whith me don't understand it. I just said you don't understant it, based on that if you consider TIMING just a matter of SPEED, then you're wrong, and you don't understand. But a lot of peole do, not just me.

Another thing kicking by nature IMPLIES that the kicker weakens his/her balance. Why? because when he/she kicks, there's only one leg on the ground (assuming it's not a flying kick), and I guess you understand that a person has less balance on one leg than on two, right? So by nature while the kick IS DEVELOPING (this is important) your balance deminishes. If you add to this condition the speed of the kick, that the kick doesn't hit it's intendent target, an incoming atemi to the face (from the Aikidoka), all these other aspects help to deminish even more the balance of the kicker. If we add to all these aspects the POSSIBLE response of the kicker to avoid the atemi while with such a poor balance, then it's possible that a no-touch throw HAPPENS, not because the Aikidoka decided, but because it's a consecuense of all these conditions. Now if the TKD guy doesn't try to avoid the atemi, then he must received a strong, powerful, committed puch to the face. maybe that will throw him.
Now, obviuosly, I'm asuming that the Aikidoka applied the Aikido principles properly, thus performing an effective defense.
Now if the Aikidoka doesn't have the knowledge to perform his defense properly, then of course the TKD has the advantage and is going to kick him as hard as as many times as he wants.
Maybe the problem is that seems you're assuming that yor TKD friend is (maybe it's true by the way) capable of adjusting to any situation and ALWAYS be in the advange, just becuse he is so good and kicks so fast. TKD has its principles of application AIkido has it's own. One is no better that the other, just different.

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Old 03-16-2006, 08:37 AM   #33
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Hmm, well, I know people who are just as balanced on one leg as on two. But they are less **stable**...two legs provide greater stability...not necessarily better balance.

Stability:
The state or quality of being stable, especially:
Resistance to change, deterioration, or displacement.
Constancy of character or purpose; steadfastness.
Reliability; dependability.

Balance:

A state of bodily equilibrium: thrown off balance by a gust of wind.
The ability to maintain bodily equilibrium: Gymnasts must have good balance.

Best,
Ron

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Old 03-16-2006, 09:11 AM   #34
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Hmm, well, I know people who are just as balanced on one leg as on two. But they are less **stable**...two legs provide greater stability...not necessarily better balance.

Stability:
The state or quality of being stable, especially:
Resistance to change, deterioration, or displacement.
Constancy of character or purpose; steadfastness.
Reliability; dependability.

Balance:

A state of bodily equilibrium: thrown off balance by a gust of wind.
The ability to maintain bodily equilibrium: Gymnasts must have good balance.

Best,
Ron
Hey Ron, thanks for the English lessons, Well, English is not my native language, so I hope you all try to understand.
So lets say kicking makes a persons less stable. Which means easilly to get unbalance. Better?

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Old 03-16-2006, 09:19 AM   #35
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Yes, and please, understand that your english is much better than my anything else. I have made the same clarification to people who speak english as their first language.

Also, I watched the clips that Ted provided...quite a few of the ones on that page actually. I've always enjoyed the grace of movement and the management of ma ai in the Ki Society. I cannot move the way they do, and it is an art. But I have to say, those clips do make Szcepan's point. Take for instance the munetsuki and keri (kicks) clips. Those kicks are awfull, even by my standards, and they in no way represent any kind of threat. To do those same waza with someone skilled in kicking would be something very different. Perhaps the shite could in fact do that...but if that is the highest level of kicking he trains against, he is going to have a rude awakening.

Again, much respect for the people in those clips, they are very good at what they do...but what they do is not really what Sczcepan is talking about.

Best,
Ron

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Old 03-16-2006, 01:32 PM   #36
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Maybe would be more accurate to say 'no-touch falls', rather than 'no-touch throws'; considering that is not something that the Aikidoka does by his/her own will, but just something that happens due to the dinamincs of the situation. So you don't actually throw him or her. He or she just falls.
Seen this way, maybe is easier to comprehend the process. And this 'no-touch fall' is also true in other arts or sports. Like when in a Muay Thai match one of the participants kicks but misses and fall because of the momentum, or when a boxer punches and misses and we see him loose balance and sometime even falls, or a golfer that misses the ball and falls on his/her back.
nothig mystical or magical though, just dinamics and laws of phisics.

Bratzo Barrena
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Old 03-16-2006, 03:39 PM   #37
James Kelly
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
I have a friend, he is 4th dan TKD. his kicks are faster then the speed of sound.
The fastest known kick in the animal kingdom is from the mantis shrimp at 23 meters per second (51 miles per hour). not even one tenth the speed of sound. If your friend can beat that, you sohuld allert the scientific journals.
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Old 03-17-2006, 08:41 AM   #38
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Quote:
Bratzo Barrena wrote:
Maybe would be more accurate to say 'no-touch falls', rather than 'no-touch throws'; considering that is not something that the Aikidoka does by his/her own will, but just something that happens due to the dinamincs of the situation. So you don't actually throw him or her. He or she just falls.
Seen this way, maybe is easier to comprehend the process.
Sorry, but i still don't get to comprehend the process nor the dynamics of the situation in some of the "throws" in this clip.

http://82.182.21.41/jak/film/budokan...20W8%20320.wmv

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Old 03-17-2006, 08:56 AM   #39
Mark Freeman
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

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Mr. Ted Ehara, I just saw the video you indicated and if I were to guide my opinion on this video, I would agree with mr. Szczepan Janczuk, that no-hold throws are just BS.
In this video ukes are obviuosly too condescendent, and throw thelselves. Maybe in the first throw, yes, they really need to fall that way to avoid the atemi, but in the second throw, they don't really need to fall that way. I don't think that video is a good example. Of course I don't think any video wolud be a good example, no-touch throws is something that needs to be felt, not seen, to be believed.
There is a contradiction going on in the statement above, first you say that no touch throws are BS, then finish with, that they need to be felt not seen to be believed.

You seem to be implying that the uke's are falling over, perhaps when they need not to, and that they are too complient. As Ron said there are things that the ki society which do which others don't and they can be admired for what they are, grace of movement and mai ai are a result of their type of training. But to denigrate the uke's because they don't do perhaps what you would do, is to do them a disservice ( although I do agree the kicks seen in the video were pretty weak ).
As I mentioned in a post above, O Sensei is on film doing many no touch throws, were his uke's being honest or were they just falling over?
My take on it is that the aikido that is practiced that comes from O Sensei's early students, does not focus on the same type of practice as that which comes from his students later on in his life. That does not mean that I think one is better than the other, they are just different expressions of one man's quest.
Tohei Sensei taught what he learned from O Sensei and he saw 'and felt' his aikido. I'm sure he had a different experience entirely than that of say Shioda Sensei.
Naturally they teach their own student's O Sensei's aikido, same name, different approaches.

By naming no touch throws as no touch falls, you imply that it is not nage executing this but rather it's uke's doing. To some extent this is correct as uke initiates the attack and without it there would be no throw at all. IMHO nage is the cause of this type of 'throw' not uke. Without the skill of correct mai ai, timing, blending and leading and ki extension 'no touch' is just not going to happen. With all of these things it can. Which I guess is why O Sensei was so good at them

regards,
Mark

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Old 03-17-2006, 09:04 AM   #40
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Quote:
Sorry, but i still don't get to comprehend the process nor the dynamics of the situation in some of the "throws" in this clip.
Hmmph, yeah, well....I can't comprehend it either. But then, I haven't taken ukemi for him...don't know if that would make a difference or not.

Best,
Ron

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Old 03-17-2006, 09:16 AM   #41
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

With regards to the 'no-touch' throws IMO they are essentially psychological in nature rather than physically manipulating uke's body (this much already has been said here).

With regards to Szczepan's points I see what he's trying to say (don't much like the way he's saying it mind but thats how he usually expresses himself....). I would only mention that I found a great quote once by (I believe) St.Augustine. Paraphrasing: "When the mind commands the body, the body obeys. When the mind commands the mind it meets resistance."

Some of the best Aikido I've ever seen/experienced has been when my mind has been played with by nage and as such my body has to obey and do what its told. Szczepan seems to believe that this is some sort of psychological state that only Aikidoka get themselves into, unfortunately this is not true. I've seen the same state of mind in TKD, Karate, Judo, Ju Jitsu and BJJ people of relatively modest level (i.e. not masters but not beginners either).
It really comes down to the individula and what kind of psycholigcal stimuli they respond to as to how they might be manipulated by someone attempting a 'no-touch' throw. But everyone has their mental 'gears and levers' IMHO, some obvious some not.

I'll leave you with Koretoshi Maruyama Sensei's motto which seems appropriate:

"I am mind itself.

If I hold positive thoughts in my mind, good things are likely to happen.

Holding negative thoughts in my mind works against my best interests.

Therefore, even if my body suffers physically, my mind remains optimistic.

Even if I encounter obstacles, my mind is never defeated.

Daily I fill my heart with thoughts of joy, gratitude and hope.

I face each new day with a bright and optimistic spirit,

which I express in word and deed.

I have faith in life, and life responds in kind."


Cheers

Mike Haft
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Old 03-17-2006, 10:22 AM   #42
Mark Freeman
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Hmmph, yeah, well....I can't comprehend it either. But then, I haven't taken ukemi for him...don't know if that would make a difference or not.

Best,
Ron
A couple of those 'throws' on the video were hard even for me to comprehend, as you can see from my posts I am a 'fan' of no touch. The only true way of knowing is to take ukemi from the man himself, then there is no question.

cheers,
Mark

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Old 03-17-2006, 10:23 AM   #43
bratzo_barrena
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

[quote=Mark Freeman]There is a contradiction going on in the statement above, first you say that no touch throws are BS, then finish with, that they need to be felt not seen to be believed.[quote=Mark Freeman]


Mr. Freeman I said that if one judges the no-touch throws by what he/she sees in that specific video, then we the conclusion would be they are BS. I didn't say they are. So try to read carefully and understand what people writes.

[quote=Mark Freeman]You seem to be implying that the uke's are falling over, perhaps when they need not to, and that they are too complient. [quote=Mark Freeman]

Yes, they look like throwing themselves without the need to. That's the way it 'looks' in the video. But I also said that watching a video is not a reliable source to give an accurate opinion about no-touch throws. You have to feel it.


[quote=Mark Freeman]As Ron said there are things that the ki society which do which others don't and they can be admired for what they are, grace of movement and mai ai are a result of their type of training. But to denigrate the uke's because they don't do perhaps what you would do, is to do them a disservice ( although I do agree the kicks seen in the video were pretty weak ).[quote=Mark Freeman]

I didn't denigrate any one on the video, I jus comment how it looks like from the outside.


[quote=Mark Freeman]As I mentioned in a post above, O Sensei is on film doing many no touch throws, were his uke's being honest or were they just falling over? [quote=Mark Freeman]

Sometimes, some ukes, I suppose they did just fall.

[quote=Mark Freeman]My take on it is that the aikido that is practiced that comes from O Sensei's early students, does not focus on the same type of practice as that which comes from his students later on in his life. That does not mean that I think one is better than the other, they are just different expressions of one man's quest.
Tohei Sensei taught what he learned from O Sensei and he saw 'and felt' his aikido. I'm sure he had a different experience entirely than that of say Shioda Sensei.
Naturally they teach their own student's O Sensei's aikido, same name, different approaches. [quote=Mark Freeman]

I never compared any of O'sensei's students, or judge them. I just commented on the video I saw.

[quote=Mark Freeman] By naming no touch throws as no touch falls, you imply that it is not nage executing this but rather it's uke's doing. To some extent this is correct as uke initiates the attack and without it there would be no throw at all. IMHO nage is the cause of this type of 'throw' not uke. Without the skill of correct mai ai, timing, blending and leading and ki extension 'no touch' is just not going to happen. With all of these things it can. Which I guess is why O Sensei was so good at them [quote=Mark Freeman]

What I meant, wich you could read in other posts, is that maybe is more acurate to call them 'no-touch falls' because tori doesn't actually 'trhows' uke without touching by his own will. What I mean by this is that if some thinks that can trow any other without touching him, at will, is wrong. The throw or fall, call whatever you like, just happens as a consecuences of the relationship between tori and uke. I don't know if I'm clear, though. Maybe I'm not.
So it's not a matter of will, is a consecuence of the dynamics of the situation.

Bratzo Barrena
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Old 03-17-2006, 10:54 AM   #44
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

[quote=Demetrio Cereijo]Sorry, but i still don't get to comprehend the process nor the dynamics of the situation in some of the "throws" in this clip.
There's is not even one technique in this video that actually contains the elements for a no-touch throw/fall to happen.
Ukes just follow sensei until they get out of balance. the problem I see is that ukes could regain balance at any time throghout the technique, or just stop when they feel they're getting unbalanced. By the dynamics of that specific video, uke are pretty much in control of their own balance/body, until they just give it away, doesn't seem like sensei is taking their balance and controling them.
But maybe they're just trying to show a form or a principle, not effectiveness. You have to ask them.
But if what they're trying is to prove effectiveness, the throws in this video are just BS.
Specially when sensei throws one of the ukes from like 11/2 (4 feet) away, that's ridiculous even for demonstrating any principle.

Bratzo Barrena
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Old 03-17-2006, 11:01 AM   #45
Mark Freeman
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Quote:
What I meant, wich you could read in other posts, is that maybe is more acurate to call them 'no-touch falls' because tori doesn't actually 'trhows' uke without touching by his own will. What I mean by this is that if some thinks that can trow any other without touching him, at will, is wrong. The throw or fall, call whatever you like, just happens as a consecuences of the relationship between tori and uke. I don't know if I'm clear, though. Maybe I'm not.
So it's not a matter of will, is a consecuence of the dynamics of the situation.
Bratzzo,
The accuracy does indeed come from the source: if as you postulate it is a function of the uke 'falling over' then you are right they should accurately be referred to as 'no touch falls'
If they are a function of what tori does to uke then they are 'no touch throws'. And if the throw eminates from tori leading uke's mind and throwing his mind rather than his body then they are definitely 'throws', as uke's body does not have a choice but to follow where the mind goes.
You are correct that they are a consequence of the dynamics of the situation, we just differ in 'where' the throw/fall eminates from.

regards,
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 03-17-2006, 11:13 AM   #46
bratzo_barrena
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

[quote=Mark Freeman]Bratzzo,
The accuracy does indeed come from the source: if as you postulate it is a function of the uke 'falling over' then you are right they should accurately be referred to as 'no touch falls'[quote=Mark Freeman]

Mark, I never said it was ukes/attacker "function' to fall, or that he/she 'is supposed' to fall. As a o-touch throws/falls is not condicioned to the wiil of the tori/defender, they are is not condicioned to will of the uke/attacker either. They just happen.
It would be very stupid to attack anyone with the idea of: 'once I attack I'm supposed to fall'. I never said said or suggest that.
So, no-touch throws/falls, don't happen by will of the tori/defender, or the will of uke/attacker. THEY JUST HAPPEN because if the dynamics of the situation. I'm I being clear this time? Remember English is not my native language, so maybe I'm not expresing myself properly.

Bratzo Barrena
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Aikido Goshin Dojo
Doral, FL
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Old 03-17-2006, 11:25 AM   #47
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

I understand what you are saying, Bratzo, and on this I agree...they just happen because of the dynamics of the situation. That's why (for me) seeing them in demonstrations is a little strange. Aikido without 3 points of contact is strange enough, relative to most standing grappling systems. No points of contact? It can be very unusual, and I am not surprised at skepticism.

Best,
Ron (somewhat of a skeptic in that regard myself)

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 03-17-2006, 01:38 PM   #48
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Quote:
So, no-touch throws/falls, don't happen by will of the tori/defender, or the will of uke/attacker. THEY JUST HAPPEN because if the dynamics of the situation. I'm I being clear this time? Remember English is not my native language, so maybe I'm not expresing myself properly.
Hi,
your english if fine and understandable, I am envious of your fluency in another language. We are close to a conclusion here, and it may well be that we will agree to disagree. I say again, of course no touch throws/falls happen because of the dynamics of the situation, this is obvious. My belief formed through my own practice is that it is the defender that makes a no touch throw happen, it is not an 'accident'. Most people that I practice with 'cannot' throw me without touch but there are some that can. My teacher does things with an attackers (my) mind that leave me flummoxed I just cant get hold of him. I don't fall over for anyone, part of my desire to find the 'truth' in the movement made as uke.
So in conclusion, IMHO no touch throws/falls start in the mind of the defender. You are free to think otherwise.

regards,
Mark

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Old 03-17-2006, 01:52 PM   #49
Mark Freeman
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Location: Devon
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I understand what you are saying, Bratzo, and on this I agree...they just happen because of the dynamics of the situation. That's why (for me) seeing them in demonstrations is a little strange. Aikido without 3 points of contact is strange enough, relative to most standing grappling systems. No points of contact? It can be very unusual, and I am not surprised at skepticism.

Best,
Ron (somewhat of a skeptic in that regard myself)
Skepticism is healthy Ron, you can take that from real skeptic

But if you and I had been brought up on a remote island and all we had never seen an aeroplane, and one day we found a stranger that claimed that he had parachuted in from a passing plane. We would likely not believe him, we would be mildly skeptical to say the least. But our skepticism in this case would be misplaced wouldn't it. Until we had experienced an aeroplane, we would find even the concept of flight hard to grasp.
However, in this case of visual demonstration, there is still skeptiscsm. When I first saw O Sensei on film, his no touch throws were the main thing that really blew me away. I thought, I want to be able to do that! My skepticism program was switched off at that point, and I'm glad it was. I was lucky to find a teacher that practiced in this way and I have been going long enough to be able to do this 'sometimes'.

Cheers,
Mark

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Old 03-17-2006, 02:04 PM   #50
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Saito Sensei & the no-hands throw

Hmmm, well, how do I say this...

I think Mr. S. is in some ways correct when he says "only aikidoka would react this way". Please understand when I say this that I say it as much about myself **in certain circumstances** as I might say it about others. There is a very fine line here...I don't always know where it is. I don't think I can believe Watanabe Sensei's demo to be "real". There were some things in the ki society video that are the same...but I have been thrown [without overt cooperation] in some pretty amazing ways...but if conditioning was the reason, how would I as uke know?

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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