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Old 03-02-2006, 01:38 PM   #26
Roy Dean
 
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Re: Desperate to rehabilitate ki

"or in extreme cases, where I pick up a 200lb guy with my arm (I only weigh about 150lb) while he's trying to execute a full blown arm bar on me with position and slam him back down on the matt."


May I humbly suggest finding a more technical reversal? This may work sometimes, but not always, and it can result in some pretty severe damage to the person's arm (see Enson Inoue vs. Royce Alger in the UFC for a textbook example). I have seen MANY broken arms in my time from people not wanting to tap from the armlock, most of them resisting in an inefficient manner. I would not rely on this technique, for you and the safety of your partner.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread, but this is an important point for all who grapple...

Sincerely,

Roy Dean
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Old 03-02-2006, 01:52 PM   #27
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: Desperate to rehabilitate ki

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Someone mentioned that Kanai Sensei called Ki an intention. In a loose usage of the term, "Ki" can be "intention" in that it is the path of force through the body that the mind sets up. For instance, just before Tohei's opponent pushes on Tohei's forearm, there is a path from the forearm to the ground. That is ki. The "intention" to set up that path and the actual path that is set up can be idiomatically interchangeable, so I wouldn't protest too much for that usage of "ki" in a casual conversation. Technically, ki is not exactly "intention", though.
Mike, would you go as far as to say "intention is ki, but ki is not intention"?

This is really where I see the linguistic trails that illuminate and confuse.

In everyday idiomatic Japanese, "ki" can absolutely be "intention". For example, "yaru ki" やる気 is intent or desire to do something. And that can be applied to any verb. If you ask me why I didn't get to bed until late at night, I might say, 寝る気がなかった. Literally "I didn't have any ki to sleep." IOW, "I didn't feel like sleeping."

Ki is used for hunches or impressions. 彼が帰った気がする, "Kare ga kaetta ki ga suru" "I think he went home." 気にする "to make something ki" is used for active worrying. 気になる "to become ki", is used for a kind of passive worry or concern. 気をつける "attach ki", meaning to be careful. There are many other examples put together by Jun in the language section of the article section on this site.

I've mentioned before that one way of looking at this kind of usage is that feelings are a kind of energy. Let's look at English. What is "concentration"? A concentration of what? Of attention, perhaps. What is attention? Attention comes from "attend", Latin "ad" (to) and "tendere" (stretch). The Romans perceived mental energy as stretching from one place to another. A physical metaphor for a non-visual phenomenon.

From a neurological standpoint, certainly feelings create some observable, if still poorly understood, reactions in the brain. Although they are not visually observable by anybody, I doubt one would say feelings don't exist. I imagine that with the right instruments, groundpath/ki/kokyu could also be measured/seen.

One interesting thing is that very often Rob, Dan or others will talk about how it's something that needs to "felt" in order to be understood. That certainly fits in with the linguistic idiom of ki as feelings.

Just some thoughts...

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
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Old 03-02-2006, 02:42 PM   #28
Mike Sigman
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Re: Desperate to rehabilitate ki

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote:
Mike, would you go as far as to say "intention is ki, but ki is not intention"?
Well, it gets tricky because the "ki" ("qi") paradigm was used to explain things for centuries and the western-science paradigm which you and I use (so do Asians, nowadays) would not describe things in the same way which ascribed so many things to "ki". Where we get into trouble is when we try to jump back and forth linguistically between the old ki-way of describing things and the modern-science way of describing things.

In the ki paradigm, when Tohei stands and offers his forearm for his partner to push on... and he's relaxedly ready to "ground" that push... it can be said that the ready-to-be-used path is his ki which is put into place by his "intention". Or it can be said "he has brought his ki to his forearm using his intention". As soon as his partner pushes on the forearm and feels this strange solid path to the ground, some people would say that you now feel the kokyu-force. I.e., kokyu can be said to be the "physical manifestation of ki". Tohei and many others will simply call that solid path "ki power". Rob says that his teacher Akuzawa uses the term "kei", which is the Japanese pronunciation of the kanji for "jin".
Quote:
In everyday idiomatic Japanese, "ki" can absolutely be "intention". For example, "yaru ki" やる気 is intent or desire to do something. And that can be applied to any verb. If you ask me why I didn't get to bed until late at night, I might say, 寝る気がなかった. Literally "I didn't have any ki to sleep." IOW, "I didn't feel like sleeping."

Ki is used for hunches or impressions. 彼が帰った気がする, "Kare ga kaetta ki ga suru" "I think he went home." 気にする "to make something ki" is used for active worrying. 気になる "to become ki", is used for a kind of passive worry or concern. 気をつける "attach ki", meaning to be careful. There are many other examples put together by Jun in the language section of the article section on this site.
I understand. There are also a great number of linguistic constructs in Chinese that are built around "qi", as well. Remember that "qi/ki" was used to explain any unknown force or phenomenon, including health, premonitions, momentum, lightning, the effects of Oxygen, telepathy, psychokinesis (or the appearance of such in magic tricks), strength, and so on. If you understand that last sentence, you can see where all the linguistic usages of ki/qi come from. The ki/qi we talk about in martial arts functional usage were strange mechanisms and hence were part of ki/qi, also.
Quote:
I've mentioned before that one way of looking at this kind of usage is that feelings are a kind of energy. Let's look at English. What is "concentration"? A concentration of what? Of attention, perhaps. What is attention? Attention comes from "attend", Latin "ad" (to) and "tendere" (stretch). The Romans perceived mental energy as stretching from one place to another. A physical metaphor for a non-visual phenomenon.

From a neurological standpoint, certainly feelings create some observable, if still poorly understood, reactions in the brain. Although they are not visually observable by anybody, I doubt one would say feelings don't exist. I imagine that with the right instruments, groundpath/ki/kokyu could also be measured/seen.
I understand. I think that if you comprehend the enormity of "unexplained phenomena" which fell into the "ki" paradigm, you can get a pretty clear idea of what happened. Ki/qi was a great paradigm (it's really sort of a meta-theory.... it was not predictive in itself, but it was used explicatively) because you lumped everything into this cubicle of "Ki" and then hypothesized some unknown "force" or "energy" for it.... Voila' !!!
Quote:
One interesting thing is that very often Rob, Dan or others will talk about how it's something that needs to "felt" in order to be understood. That certainly fits in with the linguistic idiom of ki as feelings.
Well, there was an old phrase we used to use on the old Neijia List: IHTBS (It Has To Be Shown).

Mike
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Old 03-02-2006, 03:39 PM   #29
Quanping
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Re: Desperate to rehabilitate ki

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Some fairly qualified people have said there is no "Ki". That's true in the sense of Josh's comment about "humors". In reality there is no "Ki", but the body skills people (like Shioda, Sagawa, Rob John, et al) are discussing are real skills even if technically there is no such thing as a "Universal Ki" force/energy. In the sense that there is not really any magic, the people who offer the idea that there are magic approaches to "ki" should be looked at with suspicion. When I see people offering on the internet "secret ways to get secret knowledge" I always hear in my mind, "Step into my parlour, said the spider to the fly".

FWIW

Mike
I think you're pretty much right Mike, however, ignoring the whole commercialisation aspect when I do Zhang Zhung and feel "ki" move around my body I have no way to explain it except as some sort of energy in my body.

I mean (honestly, and I'm not trying to sell anything, please believe me) if it isn't some sort of energy, then what the hell could it be?
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Old 03-02-2006, 04:41 PM   #30
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Re: Desperate to rehabilitate ki

Quote:
Bryan Bowman wrote:
I think you're pretty much right Mike, however, ignoring the whole commercialisation aspect when I do Zhang Zhung and feel "ki" move around my body I have no way to explain it except as some sort of energy in my body.
Well, if you don't know what it is and you live in a ki-paradigm world, as much of Asia did for centuries, then "Ki" would be a good description, since you're experiencing some weird unknown phenomenon. I have no idea what you feel, but I could suggest that the vascularization and innervation of the body might induce some sorts of sensations. Given that not everyone feels the same things in Zhan Zhuang, it's really sort of a subjective call. It's a puzzle.

Mike
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Old 03-03-2006, 08:39 AM   #31
Luc X Saroufim
 
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Re: Desperate to rehabilitate ki

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
In which case it would be measureable and there would not be all the discussions about whether there was such a thing as "ki".

Mike
Then I guess my answer is "yes".
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Old 03-03-2006, 08:54 AM   #32
Mike Sigman
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Re: Desperate to rehabilitate ki

Luc, I'm not sure you understand that there is a strictured definition about "energy" and that energy is measureable and is, in a sense, a sort of accounting system that must always be in balance. We can convert between mechanical energies, electrical energies, chemical energies, etc., and if Ki is an "energy" that, for instance, effects movement, you should be able to subract all other energies from the movement of an arm (for instance) and be able to isolate the "Ki" and see what it does. People have looked for years and no measureable energy effects that can't be accounted for normally have been found.

Besides, to act like there is a "Ki" without understanding that ki is actually an amalgam of effects gets us off into New Age babble. There is no one-to-one meaing for "Ki" in English.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 03-03-2006, 10:41 AM   #33
tarik
 
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Re: Desperate to rehabilitate ki

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Besides, to act like there is a "Ki" without understanding that ki is actually an amalgam of effects gets us off into New Age babble. There is no one-to-one meaing for "Ki" in English.
Which of course leave us at either discarding the term and trying to create or find modern methods to describe the experience or else accepting the term and immersing ourselves into the ancient model.

I suspect that such cultural immersion was the only way to begin to learn this in the past. Today, I'm not so sure.

I think that it's a common mistake for people to mix the paradigms and hence create the kind of arguments that don't really further actual study of the effects.

Regards,

Tarik

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Old 03-03-2006, 11:20 AM   #34
Mike Sigman
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Re: Desperate to rehabilitate ki

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote:
Which of course leave us at either discarding the term and trying to create or find modern methods to describe the experience or else accepting the term and immersing ourselves into the ancient model.

I suspect that such cultural immersion was the only way to begin to learn this in the past. Today, I'm not so sure.

I think that it's a common mistake for people to mix the paradigms and hence create the kind of arguments that don't really further actual study of the effects.
That's an excellent point, Tarik. I think one of the big problems is that people automatically think there is some one-to-one understanding/term that if they could find it they would understand "Ki". Some people, on the other hand, are smart enough to see that there is no one-to-one obvious rationale for "ki" so they blow it off. "Ki" is sort of an amalgam of effects, sort of a "gestalt" or "holistic" composite of several unusual body characteristics that can be trained. None of us westerners are going to understand it by "immersing" ourselves (i.e., by "becoming Japanese") but only by finding out what it is and accepting either the amalgam or the individual parts for what they can do in the real and physical world. A good start would be to do some of the "ki tests" with someone showing how it's done. And then building from there. These things are all physical and finite. Will they make your Aikido or other martial arts better. Definitely. Will they enable you to levitate and talk with the gods. No.



Mike
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Old 03-03-2006, 06:09 PM   #35
MaryKaye
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Re: Desperate to rehabilitate ki

One thing that makes this whole issue much more confused is that people can talk about ki for two reasons. They may want to understand what it really is, how it works, what it is capable of, whether it's a singular thing or a composite, etc. Or they may want to prompt a student into doing a test or technique better.

For that second purpose, stories that make no literal sense are perfectly legitimate. I do not believe in a literal ray of energy extending from my fingertips to the ends of the universe when I do "unbendable arm." However, thinking of it that way has been some help in learning how to do it. Whatever it is I'm really doing, thinking of the ray is more useful than most other thoughts I've tried (thinking of my elbow, for example, is demonstrably bad).

We did an interesting experiment in ki class a few months ago. Sensei advanced the theory that thinking of being light as a feather would lead to better results in "unliftable body" than the usual trick of thinking of being heavy and grounded. We worked on this in threesomes, and at the end two threesomes agreed with sensei and the third had absolutely contradictory results. This would be pretty poor news for an explanatory theory of ki, but it's pretty much what you expect for a teaching trick. The objective is to get to a particular state of mind and body which we do not know how to directly explain or describe, though we can recognize it when we see (feel, lift) it. The teaching trick is a pragmatic way to try to get people there--we say various things and when one seems to help, we add it to the repetoire. But any given thing only helps a fraction of students. (One of my teachers is fond of "Imagine you are holding a thirty-foot-long jo", an image that never fails to discombobulate me completely. I have learned to tune him out when he says that.)

The problem arises when people hear a teaching trick (or, for that matter, invent one) and then assume that it works because it's literally true. A lot of them work despite not being literally true, or else you wouldn't get self-contradictory results like the one above. Maybe some of them are true, but you'd need more than the student's success to prove it.

Mary Kaye
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Old 03-04-2006, 06:59 AM   #36
Mark Freeman
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Re: Desperate to rehabilitate ki

Quote:
"Ki" is sort of an amalgam of effects, sort of a "gestalt" or "holistic" composite of several unusual body characteristics that can be trained
I agree with this, but it deals with only half the picture. For me the mind is the 'key' element in the 'ki' debate.
As Mary has described, ki developement exercises are often based around mental 'imaginings' which through partrner practice are shown to be effective or not as the case may be.

All of my aikido training has been in ki-aikido, so I only know this type of practice. A little under half of all of that time has been spent doing ki development exercises. I'm not saying this to somehow imply that I have a greater understanding of 'ki' than anyone else. Rather, just stating that more time is spent on practicing something that is difficult to 'describe', than perfecting named techniques through more refined movement.

For me mind/ki are inextricably linked, if I am trying to teach unbendable arm to a beginner I will use terms like imagine water flowing through your arm, out through your fingers and across to the wall at the end of the dojo. A mental exercise picked up in a few moments by most people. The result is their body is relaxed and their mind is extended meters ahead. Once people get used to 'extending their mind' then if asked to 'extend ki' they can and will do so. Our partner work is to test that this is so. There seem to me to be no difference from a practical point of view.

Now I realise that this does not explain what ki is and that the description above might look like it negates the 'ki' as a separate energy point of view. No neccessarily so, if ki is a separate universal energy that is just hanging around waiting to be used, it is not 'outside' of us, it will be the stuff that fills up the space between the electrons and the nucleii of every atom in existance.
So perhaps 'thought' or the 'feeling' of ki extending from our body is the trigger that sets off a quantum level change in the 'ki' stuff and that this actually happens, even though it is not at present scientifically measurable.

It is nearly unanimous in the scientific community that our understanding of the universe only holds true/together if we factor in 'dark matter' and 'dark energy' Which makes up approximately 90% of all known mass/energy in existance. At present it is not possible to physically detect this 'stuff', but they are desperately working on it ( not surprisingly ).

My conjecture is ( and let me know if youve heard this before, otherwise contribute it to me ) Dark matter / dark energy is/could be 'ki' - the stuff that makes the universe work / hold together - universal energy- the life force, call it what you will. It would explain so much. The ancient sage's intuitive understanding of invisible energy could then be seen as hard scientific fact, we are not there yet, but maybe, just maybe.

I would love this to be proven to be the case, as it will put ki firmly in the 'real world'. Until then there will be speculation, argument, discussion, and bit by bit a little understanding. Those of us who practice aikido 'know' that ki is 'something' that exists, those of us practicing ki-aikido would look a bit daft if it didn't.

My teacher say's "I do not know what ki is, but I know how to use it" And so I keep diligently practicing his methods to attempt to emulate his skill in the use of ki. This interests me way more than the martial aspects of aikido, which I see as a useful side effect of the practice.

Just my 2 penneth worth, over to you guys,

regards,
Mark

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Old 03-04-2006, 06:06 PM   #37
Lyle Bogin
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Re: Desperate to rehabilitate ki

What if ki is belief?
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Old 03-04-2006, 06:39 PM   #38
eyrie
 
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Re: Desperate to rehabilitate ki

Well, if it were, then where would that put 5000 years of "Traditional" Chinese Medicine?

What? The Earth is not flat? Heresy!

Ignatius
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Old 03-04-2006, 06:59 PM   #39
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Re: Desperate to rehabilitate ki

Quote:
Lyle Bogin wrote:
What if ki is belief?
What if it isn't, but you really, really believe that it is? No, really!


I know, I know... you are thinking, "...but what if it is, and you really, really believe that it isn't?" Which has me ask, two questions. The first is, "If someone extends ki while alone in a forest, is their arm still unbendable?" The second is, "If a person has no elbows, how much ki do they need to do the unbendable arm trick?"


...another one of those "things that make you go hmmmmm?"


.

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Old 03-04-2006, 07:22 PM   #40
eyrie
 
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Re: Desperate to rehabilitate ki

Hmmmm, do you need elbows to have ki? If you have elbows, does that mean you have ki? So if you don't have elbows, do you still have ki?

How's this? Strawmen have no elbows or ki...

Ignatius
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Old 03-05-2006, 02:58 PM   #41
Upyu
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Re: Desperate to rehabilitate ki

Quote:
Roy Dean wrote:
"or in extreme cases, where I pick up a 200lb guy with my arm (I only weigh about 150lb) while he's trying to execute a full blown arm bar on me with position and slam him back down on the matt."


May I humbly suggest finding a more technical reversal? This may work sometimes, but not always, and it can result in some pretty severe damage to the person's arm (see Enson Inoue vs. Royce Alger in the UFC for a textbook example). I have seen MANY broken arms in my time from people not wanting to tap from the armlock, most of them resisting in an inefficient manner. I would not rely on this technique, for you and the safety of your partner.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread, but this is an important point for all who grapple...

Sincerely,

Roy Dean
Sup Roy,

Lol, no I wouldn't rely on it in a match
We were more or less screwing around and I wanted to see how far I could push my body. It's funny though, the more "muscle" the guy has, the easier this kind of trick works (even when the bigger guy has several years experience on you). This doesn't work against smaller guys that rely on exact positioning/leverage and timing to pull of their stuff
Just goes to show that having a bigger body that some people might "advantageous" can actually work against you in certain situations because of the way the muscles are conditioned.
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Old 04-04-2006, 02:28 PM   #42
peter martin-browning
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Re: Desperate to rehabilitate ki

Dear Ted

Many thanks for your reply. Of course you are right, I posted because I want others to experience what I have experienced, and their experience is their own because they are.........etc etc, you get the point. It's not for me to proselytise. One thing I am desperate to understand though, is how the words "mystical" and "spiritual" got into my post!
A force is a force!

With thanks for your kind and helpful thoughts.

At your service


Peter Martin-Browning

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Old 04-04-2006, 03:17 PM   #43
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Desperate to rehabilitate ki

Quote:
A force is a force!
Of course, of course...

Mr. Ed (http://petcaretips.net/mister-ed.html)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 04-04-2006, 05:36 PM   #44
tarik
 
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Re: Desperate to rehabilitate ki

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
For me mind/ki are inextricably linked, if I am trying to teach unbendable arm to a beginner I will use terms like imagine water flowing through your arm, out through your fingers and across to the wall at the end of the dojo.
I would phrase it as mind/body and just leave out the ill-defined term ki unless I know the person has common reference points with me to understand what I am saying.

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
No neccessarily so, if ki is a separate universal energy that is just hanging around waiting to be used, it is not 'outside' of us, it will be the stuff that fills up the space between the electrons and the nucleii of every atom in existance.
Interesting thought. Not yet demonstrable, of course, and I think, not a likely explanation (as I understand physics).

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
It is nearly unanimous in the scientific community that our understanding of the universe only holds true/together if we factor in 'dark matter' and 'dark energy' Which makes up approximately 90% of all known mass/energy in existance. At present it is not possible to physically detect this 'stuff', but they are desperately working on it ( not surprisingly ).
And the hypothesis of dark matter and dark energy are based on observable grativitc effects on the astronomical level rather than anything people on the street or in the park or in the dojo are demonstrating.

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
My conjecture is ( and let me know if youve heard this before, otherwise contribute it to me ) Dark matter / dark energy is/could be 'ki' - the stuff that makes the universe work / hold together - universal energy- the life force, call it what you will. It would explain so much.
That would be a nice neat little package, but even if dark matter is demonstrated by more than observable astronomical effects, it does not appear (currently) to be related to what a person can or cannot do in their training.

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
Those of us who practice aikido 'know' that ki is 'something' that exists, those of us practicing ki-aikido would look a bit daft if it didn't.
Well, we all look a bit daft, don't we, getting on the mats and laughing when someone tosses us across the dojo? It certainly is possible that there is a relationship, but I remain skeptical (and educable).

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
My teacher say's "I do not know what ki is, but I know how to use it" And so I keep diligently practicing his methods to attempt to emulate his skill in the use of ki. This interests me way more than the martial aspects of aikido, which I see as a useful side effect of the practice.
You are of course familiar with Tohei's demonstration of using ki to pick up something from a table when asked? He reached out and picked it up with his hand.

Sometimes, I think, in our zeal to understand the demonstrably mysterious and sometimes amazing, we all too readily accept the more fantastic suggestion.

I hope you don't misunderstand me. I think it IS fantastic. Just not fantastical.

Tarik

Tarik Ghbeish
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Old 04-05-2006, 06:04 AM   #45
Mark Freeman
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Re: Desperate to rehabilitate ki

Hi Tarik,

thanks for your response to the post I made some time ago. I have been surprised that up until now, no one had anything to say about what are to me, pretty out there theories!

Of course non of my conjectures about ki/dark energy/matter are currently proveable, and you are right to be skeptical. I just believe as I think that you do, that there is nothing 'mystical' about ki. There was a time when men looked up[ to the 'heavens' and it was all a mystery, they created sky gods to help explain what they saw ( some still hold these entities to be true ). Over time we have come to understand the universe in a different way. To me the knowledge that we have uncovered so far, is far more 'fantastic' than the explanations given by the ancient thinkers. So I wait and watch as human enquiry searches for more ways to explain the mindbogglingly brilliant life that I feel lucky to be a part of.

My thinking has just evolved in this way to give myself a framework for me to hang my own understanding onto, regarding ki and/or other energy related issues. I'm not a quantum physicist and unfortunately I don't personally know any, but I would love to get an 'insiders' view on my ponderings.

Science may or may not one day be able to measure the energy/force that we refer to as ki. It is possible that it could be seen to be 'all in the mind'. To me it doesn't really matter. It won't change my aikido practice one iota. My focus in training is to become more efficient/dynamic/powerfull, the concept of ki has helped me to get to the point that I am at now. I do use the term ki when I am teaching, but I give many mental images to use when executing a technique that help with getting the right mind/body state to perform the exercise with little effort. I'm sure I could probably do it all without using the term ki at all, and still get the same result. But I would just be substituting it for another word to describe the same thing.

Thanks again for taking the time to consider my post, I hope I haven't misunderstood you, but we are in an area rife for misunderstanding. Especially when we are discussing things that are hard enough to grasp on the mat, when all of our faculties are engaged.

Cheers

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 04-07-2006, 02:03 PM   #46
Luc X Saroufim
 
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Re: Desperate to rehabilitate ki

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Luc, I'm not sure you understand that there is a strictured definition about "energy" and that energy is measureable and is, in a sense, a sort of accounting system that must always be in balance. We can convert between mechanical energies, electrical energies, chemical energies, etc., and if Ki is an "energy" that, for instance, effects movement, you should be able to subract all other energies from the movement of an arm (for instance) and be able to isolate the "Ki" and see what it does. People have looked for years and no measureable energy effects that can't be accounted for normally have been found.
Mike
this is going to be long but *please* bear with me...

first of all, how can i not understand that it's measurable when i mentioned that power is the derivative of energy

okay: back in college, i took my Structural Analysis course. one of the things we did was analyze frames. imagine a basic two dimensional frame: two vertical members, with a horizontal member connecting ( ) them at the top.

if the horizontal member has a rigid connection (ie, welded, unibody, etc.) with both vertical members, the connection "absorbs" rotational forces. the horizontal member will not rotate, but simply provide a reaction force.

if the connection was not rigid (ie, it was bolted on), it will not "absorb" the rotational force, but it will literally rotate, because there is no rotational resistance.

consider the example with the rigid connection: what happens next? the rotational force gets redirected from one side of the horizontal member to the other, constantly, until it fizzles out and reaches zero. so an initial rotational force is applied on one end, then redistributed over and over and over again. without a rigid connection, the rotational force would simply rotate the horizontal member and that would be it.

this is my analogy for understanding ki: it cannot be transferred unless there is a rigid connection between two people, much like the frame. to try and "isolate it from all the other forces" is futile, because what it is (to me) are *all of these forces being redistributed*, much like what happens to the rotational forces acting on the frame.
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Old 04-07-2006, 02:16 PM   #47
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Desperate to rehabilitate ki

uh, so you are saying it is a sum of the parts?

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 04-07-2006, 03:16 PM   #48
Don_Modesto
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Re: Desperate to rehabilitate ki

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Of course, of course...
(shudder) Sometimes I really hate it when I know enough to be in on the joke...

Ya gotta rub it in?

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 04-07-2006, 03:32 PM   #49
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Desperate to rehabilitate ki

Hey Don...what can I say...we're gettin old...

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 04-11-2006, 02:23 PM   #50
peter martin-browning
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Re: Desperate to rehabilitate ki

Dear Ted

Many thanks for your soothing and measured reply. Of course you are right, and I expect not to influence many people.
In respect of the fascinating processes that posts undergo, - did you notice how "spiritual" and "mystical" crept in while nobody was watching?



At your service



Peter
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