Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-21-2006, 05:32 PM   #1
Michael Varin
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 567
United_States
Offline
Why these techniques?

A recent thread, "Regarding grabs in aikido," has produced some divergent and strongly opinioned views. For me it has sparked curiosity. Why were those particular techniques (attacks included) chosen to form the body of aikido?

As for the grabs, David Valadez and a few others mentioned that the attacks are merely energy prints. Some others suggested they were ways that beginners could be exposed to aikido before moving on to advanced applications. Others suggested "practical" applications such as grapplers bridging the gap, or Chris Hein's idea that the grabs are to restrict another's use of weapons.

What about the techniques? Ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, yonkyo, gokyo, rokkyo, kote gaeshi, shiho nage, irimi nage, kaiten nage, koshi nage, juji nage, kokyu nage. Why do they exist? What was their intended use? Why spend so much time training them only to eschew them for kickboxing and grappling methods?

I realize that there may be some speculation here. That's fine. If any of you have researched this subject and can provide references that's great, too.

I am no expert on daito ryu, but I think we can all agree that it served as the technical inspiration for aikido. I recently read an interview stating that daito ryu is an ancient and classical samurai system of jujutsu and self-defense against single and multiple, armed and unarmed attackers. Maybe a look at history can provide a clearer picture.

I believe that these techniques were developed for a reason. What is that reason?

Michael
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2006, 06:08 PM   #2
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Why these techniques?

I don't think it is so much the techniques, or rather, the form of the techniques themselves that are the discriminating factor.

Of the 6 pins/controls, all of them, except yonkyo, is common to many martial arts. Likewise, the general form of kote gaeshi, shiho nage, koshi nage, juji nage, irimi nage, and kaiten nage are common to many martial arts, albeit, performed quite differently.

kokyu nage is the odd one out, although there are similarities in the internal CMAs.

Notwithstanding the fact that the technical basis *may* have been initially derived from its DTR parentage, I believe the difference lies in the way the techniques have been adapted (evolved?) in aikido training.

Personally, I believe that the techniques, as they are (meant to be?) practiced in aikido, is kiko (qigong training). This belief has been corroborated by several senior practitioners (not all were necessarily aikido practitioners) I have spoken to and exchanged ideas with, but it remains largely my personal beliefs and YMMV.

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2006, 06:17 PM   #3
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,628
United_States
Offline
Re: Why these techniques?

Good Idea Michael.


Looking at these techniques, the majority of them (Ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, yonkyo, gokyo, rokkyo, kote gaishi, shiho nage, kaiten nage, juji nage,) have to do with controlling or using a arm/hand to apply the device. Only two real exceptions being Kokyu nage (some variations also use an arm) and Irimi Nage, both of these are throws done basically side by side, and separate the lower half of the ukes body for the upper half. This makes Aikido's technical syllabus very heavy on arm/hand techniques, and very light on any of the many other types of techniques. This would suggest that Aikido has an agenda with the arm/hand, my belief is that this is because you are support to be controlling an armed person, and the most efficient way to do that is to first control the arm/hand, and then controlling the body through the appendage.

In other unarmed systems there is a great deal of time spent on techniques that relate to the core of the body instead of the appendage. In styles like Greco-Roman or judo, you see lots of techniques focusing on the core of the body, not the hands. In Judo we see lots of leg attacks, and sweeps, but we don't see any of these in Aikido. In western wrestling styles the objective is to use the whole of your body to pin the whole of your opponents body, with little regard to the arms/hands themselves (with the exception of using them as a bridge to get to the core of the body).

With a little bit of attention to the techniques and attacks Aikido enlists, you can see an over kill of arm/hand techniques then one might expect from an unarmed system. However for an armed system these techniques are vital, and techniques involving only the core of the body dangerous.

-Chris Hein

Last edited by ChrisHein : 02-21-2006 at 06:23 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2006, 06:40 PM   #4
Meynard
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 32
Offline
Re: Why these techniques?

Michael,

The easiest way to think about the "why" of these techniques is to imagine you or your opponent as being armed with a blade.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2006, 06:45 PM   #5
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Re: Why these techniques?

in judo and wrestling there are no strikes so you can ignore the hands/arms... they are sports... aikido deals with armed attackers and unarmed attackers that can use arm/hand/weapons to strike you... thus it has a little concentration on hand/arm/weapon control/technique... however even these techniques control the body through the 'handle' much like arm drags and grips in wrestling and judo... the argument that because of the emphasis on arm techniques it must be a weapon art is simply ridiculous... Jiu Jitsu has TONS of arm techniques, not just submissions... almost all require some sort of grip of the arms, from sweeps to passes to escapes... is jiu jitsu then a weapons based art? this is like looking at the cart from the rear and saying it pushes the horse...

Edwin Neal


  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2006, 06:51 PM   #6
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 860
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Why these techniques?

From what I've read about classical Ju-jitsu I should imagine that most of the submissions (I include kote gaeshi in this) were intended either to break a limb (especially the sword arm) prior to a throw or as they are now to restrain an attacker and/or place him in a position which allowed you to finish him off with a tanto, yoroi doshi or whatever you had to hand.

The throws, in their original form, were probably designed to drop uke on his neck and kill him outright or again place him in a position where his sword arm could be restrained allowing you to finish him off.

Often to achieve this it was nessecary to make sure your opponent couldn't take ukemi and one way of achieving this is to tangle his arms up (juji nage style) before throwing him.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2006, 06:51 PM   #7
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Why these techniques?

Well, the weapon is really an extension of the hand, and by extension, an extension of the body. How the body moves is what's important. Not the hand or the weapon.

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2006, 06:53 PM   #8
Meynard
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 32
Offline
Re: Why these techniques?

Edwin,

There are many forms of jiu jitsu some have different emphasis since it has different origins.

The technical syllabus that aikido came from was on a type of jiu jitsu that was part of a weapon based martial art system. Thus the different emphasis.

Jiu Jitsu as you know today is more of a blend of different jiu jitsu methods rather being part of complete martial arts system based on the used of weapons.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2006, 06:54 PM   #9
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Re: Why these techniques?

Meynard said,
The easiest way to think about the "why" of these techniques is to imagine you or your opponent as being armed with a blade.

still ridiculous... you don't need a weapon to justify... just the hand grab/strike is justification enough... the 'classic' waza ie Ikkyo, Nikkyo etc. are principles as well as techniques... consider them as specific techniques AND as drills that improve your body mechanics/feeling/awareness for martial situation... ever used ikkyo on the ground or kokyu nage or sankyo??? of course you have... although you may not have made the connection yet... look at the kimura... looks like an ude osae/ikkyo to me... Osensei showed us a book... you have to open it and read the fine print...

Edwin Neal


  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2006, 06:56 PM   #10
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Re: Why these techniques?

all i am saying is that saying it is just a weapon art is wrong... it is both since JJ clearly is as well...

Edwin Neal


  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2006, 06:57 PM   #11
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Re: Why these techniques?

Well, the weapon is really an extension of the hand, and by extension, an extension of the body. How the body moves is what's important. Not the hand or the weapon.

well said Ignatius...

Edwin Neal


  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2006, 07:00 PM   #12
Meynard
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 32
Offline
Re: Why these techniques?

Edwin,

I didn't say "justify"...

I said to understand the "why".

Also I never said it's just a weapon art. Aikido is an empty hand weapon based martial art however ineffective it. That is its origin.

It's too bad that so much of it is lost.

Last edited by Meynard : 02-21-2006 at 07:04 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2006, 08:05 PM   #13
xuzen
 
xuzen's Avatar
Dojo: None at the moment - on hiatus
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 965
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Why these techniques?

I read sometime ago, a new student asked a aikido teacher are there any specific technique in the aikido armamentarium to deal with boxing, muay thai, wrestling etc.

He answered, "I don't know, samurai did not box nor wrestle."

This brings to attention this: Samurai are warriors and their job is to wage war for their overlords. As a professional soldier, what is the best way to dispatch an opponent? Weapons of course. Bow and arrow for ranged attack, naginata, katana for close quarter combat, tanto and jujutsu as a back up weapon if something should go wrong.

Wrestling/newaza? Unlikely their main strategy; at most basic and rudimentary knowledge, just enough for them to get up, regain weapon and re-convince battle.

Also, boxing or muay thai type kicks are mute for them. These guys are heavily armoured... it is not going to be effective on them. OTOH, kansetsu-waza to prevent deployment of above mentioned weapon; nage-waza to fell an enemy followed by weapon deployment are IMO more useful strategy.

With these in mind, I think I do agree with Chris Hein and similar thinking posters that aikido, or rather its parent art Daito-ryu, are weapon derived art.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2006, 08:51 PM   #14
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Re: Why these techniques?

"I don't know, samurai did not box nor wrestle."??? Wrong answer... they did both... they just called them by japanese names...

Xu...so samurai always wore armor and were on a bloody battlefield 24/7??? this is silly... aikido was derived from various Jiujitsu that were meant to address the battlefield AND everything else including striking, kicking and groundwork... do the research... you can find scrolls that show 'non-battlefield/fully armored' applications... the arts were equally weapon and empty hand... anything else would just be dumb... that is the "why" and it justifies BOTH weapons and empty hand... It must also be effective otherwise why did it survive? Why would you practice something that is not effective???

It is necessary to develop a strategy that utilizes all the physical conditions and elements that are directly at hand. The best strategy relies upon an unlimited set of responses.
Osensei


PS. Perhaps english is not your primary language, Meynard?... 'empty hand weapon based martial art' this makes no sense... it is self contradictory... if it is empty hand then it is not weapon based, and if it is weapon based it is not empty hand... it can be BOTH an empty hand and a weapon based martial art equally... but combining the terms cancels each other out...

Edwin Neal


  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2006, 09:11 PM   #15
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Why these techniques?

While non-factual statements and opinions may be inevitable, I don't think it necessarily helps the discussion, particularly when such conjecture has no basis in factual evidence.

Does anyone claiming that aikido is an "empty-hand weapons based/derived" art have any factual evidence to that effect?

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2006, 10:02 PM   #16
Meynard
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 32
Offline
Re: Why these techniques?

Edwin,

It makes perfect sense. It's not my fault that you're having a hard time with the idea.

Weapon based means it has roots in the use of weapons.

Eyrie,

Yes. You are welcome to my training sessions in Long Beach and I'll be more than happy to show you.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2006, 10:15 PM   #17
xuzen
 
xuzen's Avatar
Dojo: None at the moment - on hiatus
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 965
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Why these techniques?

Quote:
I don't know, samurai did not box nor wrestle."??? Wrong answer... they did both... they just called them by japanese names...
Xu...so samurai always wore armor and were on a bloody battlefield 24/7??? this is silly... aikido was derived from various Jujutsu that were meant to address the battlefield AND everything else including striking, kicking and groundwork... do the research... you can find scrolls that show 'non-battlefield/fully armored' applications... the arts were equally weapon and empty hand... anything else would just be dumb... that is the "why" and it justifies BOTH weapons and empty hand... It must also be effective otherwise why did it survive? Why would you practice something that is not effective???
Chill Edwin. Aiki-jutsu, jujutsu and similar type arts are no doubt applicable in weapon and weaponless situation. My point is that if you look at aikido from the point of a weapon based scenario, you see the connection to the technique more relevantly. Again, I reiterate, despite this weapon art derived ancestry, I never doubt that its applicability in an hand to hand combat scenario.

Again, I must add, I personally never doubt the art that I practice as ineffective, I maybe ineffective perhaps (trying hard to be put on humble demeanour while typing this sentence ) , but I never doubt the art's effectiveness.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2006, 10:33 PM   #18
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Re: Why these techniques?

it makes sense that aikido has roots in BOTH weapons AND empty hand arts... Osensei studied both armed and unarmed arts and synthesized aikido from both... historical evidence supports this veiw... my sensei's and others such as Stanley Pranin and John Stevens have done the research and wrote at great length on this... but what you say does not make sense, and is in fact contrary to people who i am sure have more experience and authority to say just what aikido is and is not... if you can provide evidence to support your claim then do so, until then your words are empty... where do you train in Long Beach? does your dojo have a webpage?

Edwin Neal


  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2006, 11:04 PM   #19
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Why these techniques?

Nope, I'm still not getting any factual evidence other than anecdotal statements to the effect that aikido is based on weapons or is rooted in the use of weapons. What documentary proof do you have that aikido is based on weapons or that the empty handed forms are derived from weapons movement?

And, no, you showing me is not factual proof. That you can demonstrate the nexus between weapons use and empty handed forms, I do not doubt. Heck, I've done arnis and karate and I can also show you how empty handed movement transposes to weapons movement and vice versa, but there is a big difference in making a statement to the effect that arnis (or karate) is a weapons based art, as opposed to saying that arnis (or karate) can be applied with or without weapons.

Unfortunately, I think you're missing the point. If you so boldly state that an art is based on, rooted in the use of, or derived from a weapons system, then where is the factual evidence and documented proof of such statement. Nowhere have I read that it is. Prove me otherwise.

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2006, 11:13 PM   #20
Meynard
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 32
Offline
Re: Why these techniques?

You don't have to believe me. Do a search on google.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2006, 11:16 PM   #21
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Re: Why these techniques?

Xu see Ignatius post... just claiming that it is derived from a weapon art doesn't cut it... DRAJJ is an empty hand art... jujitsu is empty hand... while some of the footwork is like sword and spear arts, and the application of the joint locks are similar to cutting with a sword... the locks are clearly derived from jujitsu... an empty hand art... for defense against armed and unarmed attackers... no proof has been offered to support the weapons based origin...

Edwin Neal


  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2006, 11:25 PM   #22
Meynard
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 32
Offline
Re: Why these techniques?

What kind of proof do you need?

Is it really that hard to understand or are aikido people just super dense?
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2006, 11:32 PM   #23
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Why these techniques?

Quote:
Meynard Ancheta wrote:
You don't have to believe me. Do a search on google.
Well, I would seriously doubt the authenticity and quality of whatever information is out there on the Internet. In case you hadn't realized, Google isn't exactly "research", at least not in the academic sense....

Well, OK, point out the links which purport or support this fact and what is the authencity of its source.

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2006, 11:38 PM   #24
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Re: Why these techniques?

something like "aikido is based on a weapon based art and here is a link to a site, article, column that has documentation, shows clearly the influence of this weapon based art, or Osensei says, and a quote that supports this line of reasoning etc... how about something like that... just tell me how you arrived at the conclusion that aikido is based upon a weapon art that has been adapted for empty hand application... IF your conclusion is correct, then a whole lot of people of some noteworthiness in the aikido world have been really confused for a long time...
You don't have a dojo? so how is it that you study aikido? with whom have you studied? for how long? as these things are not in your profile any statements you make are viewed with some skepticism...

Edwin Neal


  Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2006, 12:04 AM   #25
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,628
United_States
Offline
Re: Why these techniques?

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
something like "aikido is based on a weapon based art and here is a link to a site, article, column that has documentation, shows clearly the influence of this weapon based art, or Osensei says, and a quote that supports this line of reasoning etc... how about something like that... just tell me how you arrived at the conclusion that aikido is based upon a weapon art that has been adapted for empty hand application... IF your conclusion is correct, then a whole lot of people of some noteworthiness in the aikido world have been really confused for a long time...
You don't have a dojo? so how is it that you study aikido? with whom have you studied? for how long? as these things are not in your profile any statements you make are viewed with some skepticism...

Edwin, I'm really starting to doubt if you have ever read anything about Aikido, the founder, or Japanese history......

I think Meynard has probably forgotten more about martial arts then you have ever learned. He has studied with some of the best martial artists alive.

-Chris Hein
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Diato Ryu Aikijujutsu's relation to Aikido Kelly Allen General 19 11-23-2007 03:24 PM
Gokyo-why? Steve Morabito Techniques 65 11-26-2006 05:18 PM
aikido and competition ewodaj General 129 08-10-2006 10:43 AM
Definition of "Dan"? H. Trinh Language 27 02-10-2006 02:54 PM
Randori kocakb General 26 06-20-2004 08:51 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:47 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate