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Old 02-23-2006, 01:45 PM   #51
tarik
 
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Nice quote, Ron. I'm pretty sure I've read something similar from the Nidai Doshu's writings as well, but don't have the references handy.

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 02-23-2006, 01:47 PM   #52
Ron Tisdale
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

You are making assumptions about the philosophy...as we all do from time to time. Did you read the linked material? Do you know who Kanai Sensei was?

One of the reasons I train in aikido is BECAUSE of the contradictions. Everything is one. Shite and Uke are seperate, but they are together. Training should be hard and martial, but it is good for women and children. If I use maximum efficiency, why do I get so tired? Why do I smile when my teacher slams me into the mat 20 times in a row, then he tells me 3 more falls even when I am already exhausted? I have to enter like a bullet, but once there, I have to be soft.

On and on and on...the best things in life are usually highlighted by contradictions.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 02-23-2006, 01:49 PM   #53
Edwin Neal
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

I do not understand how anyone can claim that pre-emptive strikes are in line with traditional Aikido training.

If you strike first, you are the agressor.

if you wind up and draw back to coldcock me in the head, and i jab you in the nose... before you hit me... you are still the attacker... my defense preempts your attack... pretty good aikido...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-23-2006, 02:04 PM   #54
mattnowak
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
I do not understand how anyone can claim that pre-emptive strikes are in line with traditional Aikido training.

If you strike first, you are the agressor.

if you wind up and draw back to coldcock me in the head, and i jab you in the nose... before you hit me... you are still the attacker... my defense preempts your attack... pretty good aikido...

I don't believe that "a jab in the nose" is "pretty good aikido."
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Old 02-23-2006, 02:05 PM   #55
Edwin Neal
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

so you do not practice atemi waza???

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-23-2006, 02:08 PM   #56
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Absolutely; however, there are other techniques that are not as violent and meant to harm.
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Old 02-23-2006, 02:13 PM   #57
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Quote:
Mathew Nowak wrote:
If you don't follow the philosophy, then why bother practicing the art. Too many contradictions
The philosophy of aikido is not "Don't attack first." The philosophy of aikido is "Bring the world into harmony." Ideally, according to Ueshiba Morihei, a fully trained and prepared aikidoka knows when his enemy will attack, perceives the threat to the balance of the universe (because he is one with the universe), and then acts to retain/restore the balance. In Ueshiba's mind, this didn't simply refer to physical action. In Budo he repeatedly talks about taking control of the opponent's mind. The aikidoka senses the impending attack. He offers a shoumenuchi. The threat's intention goes from aggression to defense. The aikidoka then uses his skills to dissipate the bad energy. (Say, with ikkyou, in an ultimate ideal world.)

Go to Aikido Journal's video clips section, and check out either of the "Aikido Classics" clips under the Koichi Tohei section. You'll see a shot where uke sets up behind Tohei, with a tanto. Tohei movies before uke makes his attack, and by the time uke stabs with the tanto Tohei's already into his technique. One may have to allow for the staged nature of the demonstration, but this is the nature of aikido: sensing the attack and moving to neutralize before the attack even begins.

In Budo, Ueshiba says that when you "sense a yokomenuchi attack coming, draw it out..." That is pre-emption. You're not reacting to the attack, you are anticipating it.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
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Old 02-23-2006, 02:18 PM   #58
mattnowak
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote:
The philosophy of aikido is not "Don't attack first." The philosophy of aikido is "Bring the world into harmony." Ideally, according to Ueshiba Morihei, a fully trained and prepared aikidoka knows when his enemy will attack, perceives the threat to the balance of the universe (because he is one with the universe), and then acts to retain/restore the balance. In Ueshiba's mind, this didn't simply refer to physical action. In Budo he repeatedly talks about taking control of the opponent's mind. The aikidoka senses the impending attack. He offers a shoumenuchi. The threat's intention goes from aggression to defense. The aikidoka then uses his skills to dissipate the bad energy. (Say, with ikkyou, in an ultimate ideal world.)

Go to Aikido Journal's video clips section, and check out either of the "Aikido Classics" clips under the Koichi Tohei section. You'll see a shot where uke sets up behind Tohei, with a tanto. Tohei movies before uke makes his attack, and by the time uke stabs with the tanto Tohei's already into his technique. One may have to allow for the staged nature of the demonstration, but this is the nature of aikido: sensing the attack and moving to neutralize before the attack even begins.

In Budo, Ueshiba says that when you "sense a yokomenuchi attack coming, draw it out..." That is pre-emption. You're not reacting to the attack, you are anticipating it.
That is one interpretation.

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered,
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win."
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Old 02-23-2006, 02:25 PM   #59
Edwin Neal
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

violence is about YOUR intention not the action... a jab is violence if you are intending to hurt someone and are attacking them with no just cause such as self defense... a jab is NON violent when you do not intend to hurt your attacker, but intend to protect yourself from an attack in self defense...
harm... that is one subjective point on a continuum from a bloody nose or less to completely crippled for the rest of their life or more, even death... the action arises from the situation or harmonizing with an attacker... you do what is necessary and no more... this may mean nothing, or evading, or atemi, or injury to body parts, or more... it does not rule out preemption if that is appropriate, and necessary to the situation...

The controlling sword assumes the stance of heaven. Quickly move in, strike and evade, cutting to all sides.

If you want to disarm your foe, seize the initiative, step in and cut decisively!
Osensei

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-23-2006, 02:29 PM   #60
mattnowak
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
violence is about YOUR intention not the action... a jab is violence if you are intending to hurt someone and are attacking them with no just cause such as self defense... a jab is NON violent when you do not intend to hurt your attacker, but intend to protect yourself from an attack in self defense...
harm... that is one subjective point on a continuum from a bloody nose or less to completely crippled for the rest of their life or more, even death... the action arises from the situation or harmonizing with an attacker... you do what is necessary and no more... this may mean nothing, or evading, or atemi, or injury to body parts, or more... it does not rule out preemption if that is appropriate, and necessary to the situation...

The controlling sword assumes the stance of heaven. Quickly move in, strike and evade, cutting to all sides.

If you want to disarm your foe, seize the initiative, step in and cut decisively!
Osensei
Once again, this is a real life situation. I understand that a pre-emptive strike is appropriate in a real life situation. However, you cannot call it Aikido.
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Old 02-23-2006, 02:34 PM   #61
Edwin Neal
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Why not?

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-23-2006, 02:36 PM   #62
Neil Mick
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Quote:
Mathew Nowak wrote:
I do not understand how anyone can claim that pre-emptive strikes are in line with traditional Aikido training.

If you strike first, you are the agressor.
Nope.

If you intend to strike first: you are the agressor.

Quote:
It does not matter if you feel that there is an "intent" for physical harm to you.
Look, Mathew: I don't know you or your Sensei (it's my biggest problem with these fora...ppl have no idea of the poster's rank, or experience. So, any newbie could be heatedly arguing technique with a Shihan, and never know it)...nor do I know how long you (or your Sensei) has been training, in Aikido.

But, I look at the people who have resonded to you, and I DO know some of their backgrounds. Several of these people have posted in the "Voices of Experience" forum, meaning that they have studied in Aikido for more than 20 years.

Now, with some of that experience telling you that there is an alternative way of considering "strikes..." doncha think that maybe...just maybe...that there is another way of considering this topic, other than "my way is right; and yours is wrong??"

Just a thought, from this clueless Aikidoka, who has learned so little, in his 20+ year's training.
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Old 02-23-2006, 02:55 PM   #63
Edwin Neal
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered,
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win."

quoted from whom? i believe it is correct, but i don't see the words or idea, 'no preemptive strikes' in that quote anywhere...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-23-2006, 03:24 PM   #64
tarik
 
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Quote:
Mathew Nowak wrote:
"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered,
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win."
Yep.. and the wise win because they maintain control over their rage and are able to perceive when the time is right to strike... sometimes pre-emptively.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Look, Mathew: I don't know you or your Sensei (it's my biggest problem with these fora...ppl have no idea of the poster's rank, or experience. So, any newbie could be heatedly arguing technique with a Shihan, and never know it)...nor do I know how long you (or your Sensei) has been training, in Aikido.
Actually, it is one of the things I like about online interactions. So much more about each person and their opinions (or willingness to opine) comes out.

Quote:
Mathew Nowak wrote:
Once again, this is a real life situation. I understand that a pre-emptive strike is appropriate in a real life situation. However, you cannot call it Aikido.
Not only can I call it Aikido, I will. It seems to me that for you, Aikido is a utopian ideal that cannot exist in real life, merely be yearned for and worked towards. It's good to have impossible utopian ideals, but it's clear to me that a lot of us here don't see Aikido in the same way you do.

Regarding Atemi-waza
Quote:
Mathew Nowak wrote:
Absolutely; however, there are other techniques that are not as violent and meant to harm.
You mean atemi waza are not designed to deliver an atemi that unbalances and throws your partner without harming them?

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 02-23-2006, 03:33 PM   #65
tarik
 
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Quote:
Mathew Nowak wrote:
You do not have to wait for anything, you can feel free to strike pre-emptively; all I am saying is that then your action is not in line with Aikido theory and philosophy.
And a whole bunch of us are saying that it is perfectly in line with Aikido theory and philosophy.

Quote:
Mathew Nowak wrote:
There are NO pre-emptive strikes in Aikido. In the real world, of course there are pre-emptive strikes. The question, however, was whether Aikido has pre-emptive strikes.
Here is it again. So according to your philosophy, Aikido cannot or does not exist in the real world?

Quote:
Mathew Nowak wrote:
If you don't follow the philosophy, then why bother practicing the art. Too many contradictions
Actually, I would argue (and suspect from his post that Ron would agree) that the contradictions are only apparent contradictions and much of the study of Aikido is in deepening our understanding of these apparent contradictions until we understand how they really are not [contradictions].

This one is a classic contradiction actually, and you've inspired an excellent thread and discussion of this particular apparent contradiction.

I assure you that many (thought probably not all) of us hear have probably been through similar debates in our past arguing your side of the argument.

Training and study eventually reveal all. If your opinion remains firm, that's fine with me, just don't expect me or others to agree with your implication that we're not being true to the philosophy of Aikido.

Regards,

Tarik

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 02-23-2006, 04:28 PM   #66
Michael O'Brien
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Wow, This forum got busy late last night and today. Interesting discussion.

Matthew,
I'm confused as to how you can say that you don't even have your own philosophy on Aikido yet, but you know for a fact that you can't have a pre-emptive strike in Aikido.

Then when it is clearly quoted from a book about a pre-emptive strike you discount that.

Here is a quote from aikifaq.com on the philosphy of Aikido:

***Despite what many people think or claim, there is no unified philosophy of Aikido. What there is, instead, is a disorganized and only partially coherent collection of religious, ethical, and metaphysical beliefs which are only more or less shared by Aikidoists, and which are either transmitted by word of mouth or found in scattered publications about Aikido.***

Which means merely because you personally feel there are no pre-emptive strikes in Aikido in no way makes that fact or a proper interpretation of the philosophy.

Also here is another quote from O'Sensei:
***
If you wish to weaken
The enemy's sword
Move first, fly in and cut!
O'Sensei
***
Move first, fly in and cut! Sounds rather pre-emptive to me?

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
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Old 02-23-2006, 05:41 PM   #67
Lorien Lowe
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Quote:
Mathew Nowak wrote:
Once again, this is a real life situation. I understand that a pre-emptive strike is appropriate in a real life situation. However, you cannot call it Aikido.
Hi Mathew-
are you saying that training in Aikido doesn't have much to do with real life, or are you just making a distinction betweed dojo training and 'real life' attacks?

-LK
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Old 02-23-2006, 06:12 PM   #68
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

One of the principles in the aikido that I have learned is that we respond to an attack and we wait for the opponent to go first... however, we must define what an attack is. I respond to someone's intent to attack. An attack consists of a lot more than just a physical movement of our human structure. Sen sen no sen timing is something that is very difficult to talk about but extremely effective in action.

Ueshiba Morihei (as someone stated above) spoke about "instant victory" and "attack and defense are one" as being part of the very core of aikido.

Best regards,

Chuck Clark
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Old 02-23-2006, 07:21 PM   #69
mattnowak
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

I am simply stating my belief and theory on Aikido. The disagreement and debate is refreshing. I don't feel that I was ever negative towards anyone elses view, I simply stated my belief ans why.

Quote:
Wow, This forum got busy late last night and today. Interesting discussion.

Matthew,
I'm confused as to how you can say that you don't even have your own philosophy on Aikido yet, but you know for a fact that you can't have a pre-emptive strike in Aikido.

Then when it is clearly quoted from a book about a pre-emptive strike you discount that.

Here is a quote from aikifaq.com on the philosphy of Aikido:

***Despite what many people think or claim, there is no unified philosophy of Aikido. What there is, instead, is a disorganized and only partially coherent collection of religious, ethical, and metaphysical beliefs which are only more or less shared by Aikidoists, and which are either transmitted by word of mouth or found in scattered publications about Aikido.***

Which means merely because you personally feel there are no pre-emptive strikes in Aikido in no way makes that fact or a proper interpretation of the philosophy.

Also here is another quote from O'Sensei:
***
If you wish to weaken
The enemy's sword
Move first, fly in and cut!
O'Sensei
***
Move first, fly in and cut! Sounds rather pre-emptive to me?
I feel that Michael has gotten very defensive and I apologize if any debate has upset you. I believe that the influx of different viewpoints and arguments is what makes a forum beneficial. If everyone agreed it would simply be a bore. I hope that me playing devils advocate did not offend anyone.

Thank you for the wonderful conversation, it was quite a treat.
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Old 02-23-2006, 07:25 PM   #70
Edwin Neal
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

good tenkan!

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-23-2006, 08:28 PM   #71
Michael O'Brien
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Matthew,

I apologize if I sounded defensive. I also have enjoyed this debate back and forth and have completely enjoyed the ebb and flow of this thread overall.

I do tend to get passionate on occasion and at times that passion can not be properly percieved or conveyed through a keyboard.

No offense was intended towards you or taken by me.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
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Old 02-23-2006, 09:53 PM   #72
Neil Mick
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Quote:
Mathew Nowak wrote:
Thank you for the wonderful conversation, it was quite a treat.
Good post!
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Old 02-24-2006, 03:17 AM   #73
happysod
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

For me, the idea of pre-emptive strikes is one of the few areas where some of the basic ki-tests cross over well into "standard aikido". If you wait and watch your uke for a while before doing one of the standard one point tests, you often see slight changes in body tension which allow you to test at a point of weakness, showing your uke where they are losing focus.

Similarly, when using a pre-emptive attack, they are much less effective if your uke is being defensive rather than attacking. From a gross point of view, their body posture may be the same, but if their intent is not attacking, your response often becomes just a poor attack.

Basically, I don't see the problem with reacting to the intent of an attack over a gross physical movement. There's been many threads on the use of verbal atemi and correct posture and distance to remove a threat, this is just one more aspect. Even from a philosophical point of view, your intent is to cause the minimum harm? So isn't it best that you control the situation from the outset rather than relying on the good will of your opponent? But I'm with Chuck, boy is it difficult.
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Old 02-24-2006, 08:28 AM   #74
roosvelt
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote:

In Budo, Ueshiba says that when you "sense a yokomenuchi attack coming, draw it out..." That is pre-emption. You're not reacting to the attack, you are anticipating it.
So true.

But the topic in discussion is "practicing" pre-emptive "strike", I think.
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Old 02-24-2006, 09:19 AM   #75
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
... the topic in discussion is "practicing" pre-emptive "strike", I think.
How do we learn to "do" a pre-emptive strike/atemi/etc. if we don't get to "practice" it? If we are training in katageiko, then it's pre-arranged that uke will attack in a certain manner. Uke must have real intent to succeed with the attack to de-stabilize the training partner's structure both physically and mentally. It's a gift we give each other in order to train. If the tori is then taking this sente away from uke successfully, both partners will learn to recognize "intent" and know when it's there and when it isn't.

Even when training with juniors, seniors must show proper training habits such as this. Appropriate levels of force, speed, etc. must be used of course.

If uke attacks with the intent that it's their job to fall down without causing a real problem for tori to solve, then no one will ever learn to do proper pre-emptive practice.

In my opinion, this ability to recognize intent and take the initiative away before the attack can be successful is real aiki. When it can be done in a pre-emptive manner, so much the better.

Best regards,

Chuck Clark
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