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Old 10-02-2004, 10:23 PM   #1
kienergy1234
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aikido throws

i need to know how you could possibly throw someone in a realistic attack,all the aikido throws seem fake since we roll with them in class.how do you throw someone without enough enough momenteum to actually throw them.

just a thought
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Old 10-03-2004, 05:16 AM   #2
shihonage
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Re: aikido throws

You keep asking these questions, Josh, but it would be a lot more productive if you found your answers in your own dojo.
A thousand sentences won't give you nearly as much as one quick demonstration.
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Old 10-03-2004, 08:19 AM   #3
aikidoc
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Re: aikido throws

With the realistic attack someone would likely get hurt. We take the falls the way we do to protect ourselves and continue training. Would they look as pretty as they do in the dojo? I doubt it. But if someone cranks a kotegaeshi or sankyo on you and you don't move with it-something is going to give-joint, ligament, muscle. Also, atemi is more likely to be used in a real situation to set up the technique.
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Old 10-03-2004, 09:12 AM   #4
SeiserL
 
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Re: aikido throws

IMHO, give it time, you sound very impatient to get to reality. Don't be in such a rush, its not all its cracked up to be.

With more training and experience, you will find that the throws, locks, and take downs can be very realistic. The first time you find yourself getting mad because someone threw you too hard, put a lock on too hard, or you regrettably get hurt, you'll quit asking about reality and begin training harder towards it.

But, don't miss the the benefits of all the other less than realistically practical training too.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 10-04-2004, 12:41 AM   #5
xuzen
 
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Re: aikido throws

Quote:
Joshua Dalton wrote:
i need to know how you could possibly throw someone in a realistic attack,all the aikido throws seem fake since we roll with them in class.how do you throw someone without enough enough momenteum to actually throw them.

just a thought
Are you a real aikidoka or just a cyber aiki guy? What I mean is are you really doing aikido as in going to a dojo, sweat it out, or are you just a 24/7 crisp/chips chomping internet junkie?

If you are really learning aikido, these questions are supposedly answered really well by your sensei and sempai.

just a thought too.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 10-04-2004, 02:47 AM   #6
maikerus
Dojo: Roppongi Yoshinkan Aikido / Roppongi, Tokyo, Japan
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Re: aikido throws

Jeez Josh...you've only been doing aikido for 3 months according to one of your other posts. If someone was to throw you with intent you'd end up a puddle dripping down between the cracks of the dojo mats.

Give it time. and be glad that people aren't try to hurt you.

Just a thought,

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 10-04-2004, 03:36 AM   #7
aikispike
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Re: aikido throws

Quote:
Michael Stuempel wrote:
If someone was to throw you with intent you'd end up a puddle dripping down between the cracks of the dojo mats.


--Michael
Bwhaahahaha. and be glad you don't ask stupid questions like that at Stumpy's dojo.

Michael Kimeda
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Old 10-04-2004, 03:51 AM   #8
p00kiethebear
 
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Re: aikido throws

When you want to learn to play basketball, what do you do?

Do you go join a professional basketball team and play against michael jordan? Of course not, you'd get your ass stomped into the pavement.

No, you practice! frequently in a CONTROLLED ENVIROMENT (eg, taking shots at the hoop in your driveway, practice dribbling etc)

Then you move on to playing games with people your own skill level or people who are a bit better than you. You start learning from others and keep drilling those basics (passes, shots, more complex dribbling etc)

Once this becomes engrained in you, then you can challenge michael jordan. And I can guarentee you, EVERY proffesional basketball player out there, no matter how many years they've been playing, STILL practices all their moves in controlled enviroments when they practice.

"Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity"
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Old 10-04-2004, 04:07 AM   #9
maikerus
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Re: aikido throws

Quote:
Michael Kimeda wrote:
Bwhaahahaha. and be glad you don't ask stupid questions like that at Stumpy's dojo.

Michael Kimeda
Sure Spike...make it look like I find any excuse to puddle-ize someone.

I don't...you know. Just for the record. I'm gentle. and nice. I even smile at babies and other small creatures.


Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 10-04-2004, 08:58 AM   #10
Jordan Steele
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Re: aikido throws

I thought the same thing when I started Aikido...how can I make someone flip. The truth is nobody is ever going to flip in real life unless they are also trained in ukemi and want to protect their joints. In Aikido, nearly all the techniques are meant to seriously injure someone if applied martially. For example, if shihonage was applied full force on an untrained person, you would a bunch of tissue tearing and bone cracking. The guy would not have time to fall. In kotegaeshi, when you turn the wrist over, the guy might not even fall, his wrist will just snap. Rarely is it possible to throw someone except for kokyunages and koshinages.
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Old 10-04-2004, 09:33 AM   #11
ian
 
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Re: aikido throws

If you are blending, rather than forcing someone over, throws are very realistic. Most aikido training is 'technique based' i.e. someone attacks and you do a set technique. However in reality (and at a higher level) the technique fits the attack. Thus you are just continuing uke in the direction they are going. The reason we 'roll with them' most of the time is because we are learning one technique at a time. Until the techniques can be performed instinctively and you can change between them easily you won't understand how this works - just keep training!

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 10-04-2004, 02:16 PM   #12
billybob
 
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Re: aikido throws

Josh,

it's refreshing to meet someone else who asks questions and gets slapped silly! thanks buddy.

Josh asked:
Quote:
how do you throw someone without enough enough momenteum to actually throw them.
discover 'kuzushi'. if you take away the excellent kihon waza of aikido and ask someone to stand still for you, you can discover some interesting things.
1. standing on two feet is tricky.
2. walking is REAL tricky.
3. ukemi is your friend. learn to love it

anyway - ask a friend to stand in place. walk behind them and to one side. place one hand on their shoulder. pull back then push straight down. they can't stand up!!!! it's physiology. if you add back the techniques you find you have just exploited the off balance point effected by kote gaishi, sumi otoshi, and iriminage, and proabably others.

have fun - train soft until you can protect yourself. (note my avatar)

billybob
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Old 10-04-2004, 03:33 PM   #13
stern9631
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Re: aikido throws

You should absolutely ask your sensei if he can apply a technique to one of your attacks to make you believe. Not an all out attack but let's say a 1/2 combat speed hook. I understand that you must buy into it in order to practice with faith. So, just get ready to fall.. Good Luck!
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Old 10-04-2004, 03:42 PM   #14
kienergy1234
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Re: aikido throws

its interesting to learn that moves like shiho nage and kotogaishi wont take you to the ground instead your bones will snap beforehand is this really true
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Old 10-04-2004, 03:55 PM   #15
p00kiethebear
 
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Re: aikido throws

Quote:
its interesting to learn that moves like shiho nage and kotogaishi wont take you to the ground instead your bones will snap beforehand is this really true
Do you really need to ask? What do you think happens if you bend ANY joint too far without moving your body accordingly.

"Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity"
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Old 10-04-2004, 05:00 PM   #16
John Ashton
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Smile Re: aikido throws

Josh,
a wise man once said, questions like this mean you need to train more. All questions will be answered with time, dedication to the art and lots of training.
train well learn lots and have fun
JA
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Old 10-05-2004, 06:28 PM   #17
maikerus
Dojo: Roppongi Yoshinkan Aikido / Roppongi, Tokyo, Japan
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Re: aikido throws

Quote:
Joshua Dalton wrote:
its interesting to learn that moves like shiho nage and kotogaishi wont take you to the ground instead your bones will snap beforehand is this really true
Actually, I'd say its likely that you would end up on the ground, but with broken/dislocated/torn/shredded body parts instead of a nice ukemi.

And...I don't recommend trying this out to see. The most dangerous Aikidoka out there is one who has learned the technique movements, but has not gained the sense of how strong each technique actually is.

This is (in my experience) usually about 4th/3rd kyu. Since this is also the time that the "showing your friends this Aikido stuff" starts to work it's very likely to injure someone outside of the controlled environment of the dojo

Be careful out there!

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 02-16-2006, 09:07 AM   #18
nathansnow
 
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Wink Re: aikido throws

Quote:
Michael Stuempel wrote:
Actually, I'd say its likely that you would end up on the ground, but with broken/dislocated/torn/shredded body parts instead of a nice ukemi.
Actually Mike, I've seen the opposite from one of the senior students at my dojo. He had 15 - 20 years experience/training and he told us that it is possible to take a untrained, resistant beginner and make him take a good hard fall. The beginner was a very stocky (5'9" 220lbs) white belt with previous experience in karate or tai kwan do. His rolls and falls were bad and he resisted everyone's technique, saying it would never work. The senior student asked if he could show him that it would work. He told him what attack to do and what technique that he would perform (kotegeishi from standard punch). He told the student that he could resist and try to get out of it, he just need to punch first. The senior student whipped the new guy around and slammed him to the ground in a perfect hard ukemi position. The uke was completely stunned, not really knowing what just happened to him, but he took a perfect fall! The new student stopped resisting everyone and really got into learning aikido! I'm still trying to get to that point and I have a feeling that it will be a good number of years.

Nate

Nathan Snow
Michigan
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Old 02-16-2006, 09:29 AM   #19
Jim Johnson
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Re: aikido throws

josh,

I can tell you from personal experience that if you believe in your own ability in preforming aikido that it will work. As a police officer I have been able to use a number of throws and locks on more than one occasion.
HAVE FAITH IT WORKS.

Jim
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Old 02-20-2006, 05:52 PM   #20
SMART2o
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Re: aikido throws

Quote:
Jordan Steele wrote:
I thought the same thing when I started Aikido...how can I make someone flip. The truth is nobody is ever going to flip in real life unless they are also trained in ukemi and want to protect their joints. In Aikido, nearly all the techniques are meant to seriously injure someone if applied martially. For example, if shihonage was applied full force on an untrained person, you would a bunch of tissue tearing and bone cracking. The guy would not have time to fall. In kotegaeshi, when you turn the wrist over, the guy might not even fall, his wrist will just snap. Rarely is it possible to throw someone except for kokyunages and koshinages.
I don't fully agree with that. In most cases, you are probably right. However, I have met and trained with a few guys that really know their stuff. The first time I ever took a breakfall, it was unitentional and it was off of kotegasehi. I felt no pain in my wrist whatsoever, but I did see my feet going over my head. Next thing I know, I am getting back on my feet and I know this stuff is for real. This had happened during my 2nd month of training and at a seminar. My sensei was also there. He saw this happen and knowing I was a beginner, just smiled at me and said "welcome to aikido".
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Old 02-20-2006, 06:12 PM   #21
Edwin Neal
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Re: aikido throws

Jordan Steele wrote:
In Aikido, nearly all the techniques are meant to seriously injure someone if applied martially. For example, if shihonage was applied full force on an untrained person, you would a bunch of tissue tearing and bone cracking. The guy would not have time to fall. In kotegaeshi, when you turn the wrist over, the guy might not even fall, his wrist will just snap.

both of these techniques can be applied (incorrectly) in just the way you describe, however both of these techniques applied in an aikido manner are not joint destructive... in either IF you twist or cut to the out side you are indeed probably going to injure the joints... that is more of a jujutsu application... kote gaeshi is not a twist out of the wrist but a 'curling' of the wrist in the same direction as the fingers are pointing... shiho nage is not a twist or torque of the shoulder, but more like using the arm as a handle to lead the balance beyond the rear corner and cause uke to fall... these are common misapplications of these techniques... the more destructive application is also easier to kaeshi...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-20-2006, 06:24 PM   #22
Mark Freeman
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Re: aikido throws

I agree with you Edwin, I thought that the application of aikido was specifically 'not' to cause damage.
If properly applied to the trained individual, they will roll as they are following the technique. If they are untrained then the controlled application of the technique will lead them to a point where they no longer want to continue as to do so would cause themselves pain. If the technique is applied beyond what is neccessary then aikido stats to morph into something else. However there may be the rare occasion.......

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-20-2006, 06:27 PM   #23
Aristeia
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Re: aikido throws

Yes we often do give nage our ukemi - i.e. we make a concious decision to roll. Not always, I like another poster did my first top ukemi of a kotegaeshi with no idea that it was about to happen. But many times we make a decision to do an ukemi.

The best response I've ever heard to that is that taking ukemi is like tapping out in grappling arts.
People don't tap out in real life, just like they don't do big ukemi in real life. The ukemi is a signal that yes you have compromised my balance to the point where I'm in danger of injury so I must abandon my attack and protect myself. And just like tapping out, if you choose not to take ukemi, then bad things could happen to you. It won't necessarily look pretty like in the dojo, but it will stop the attack.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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