Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-21-2006, 08:19 PM   #76
senshincenter
 
senshincenter's Avatar
Dojo: Senshin Center
Location: Dojo Address: 193 Turnpike Rd. Santa Barbara, CA.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,422
United_States
Offline
Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

I'm asking these questions because you guys are not. This is not my line of reasoning and/or my take on Aikido or Aikido training. This is the unthought portion of your own position.

Please understand that I am playing devil's advocate here regarding the view that is shared between you and Chris. My view is counter this view - my view is that training is more principle-based than scenario-based.

When you said: "Grabs in aikido are a matter of weapon retention and or how to prevent another from using their weapon. " - you basically repeated Chris' position. In my understanding of that position and of your statement, you are not saying that the grabs are about principle training, you are saying that they are about a literal attack - which is understandable as a scenario-based training. If you are not saying this, if you never said this, or if you aren't saying this now, then we are not in disagreement. However, if you are, then I think the questions I'm asking need to be answered for your position to continue making sense.

In my understanding of Aikido, I understand why mune-tsuki looks like it does (i.e. today, it's about a thrusting energy/yesterday it was about thrusting energy with a sword), but in a training curriculum where you say silly little grabs should be understood as practical/literal attacks, these other questions about kata-dori, mune-tsuki, etc., come up. As I understand your answer, you dismiss things like kata-dori as being stylized empty curriculum and that Osensei did them but knew he was doing stylized empty forms, etc. My opinion is that Osensei, and countless others like him, knew why such training was important - because of the principles such training cultivated. If you are saying this, then again, we agree. If not I feel your position must consider more than you are offering.

When training is thought to be literal applications, what I am calling scenario-based training, one has a lot of explaining to do in an art like Aikido or in any traditional Japanese martial art (starting with single man forms, to suwari-waza, to tai-no-henko, etc.). However, if one leaves training principle-oriented, these things make sense in total and one does not have to make such arbitrary allowances that show Osensei training in something "less than real" but doing so knowingly, etc., because it was curriculum.

Most importantly, if you mean to visit in good faith - you, and all, are always welcome at our dojo. But if you mean to threaten me or intimidate me, please know that I do not come on these forums to get in either fake or real fights with folks. That is utter nonsense to me. If continuing this discussion is only going to spark you into anger, rage, and/or violence, we can stop talking here and now. I prefer to both agree and disagree in peace. If you can't do that, if that is for some reason beyond you, there's no point in having our ideas come into contact with each other. Right? You and I do not know each other, and we can very easily continue not knowing each other. If that is the only way for us to maintain peace in our lives, then I suggest we continue to not know each other.

This is not a contest for me and it should not be one for you.

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2006, 08:25 PM   #77
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

you guys just don't get it... you keep parroting context when you clearly have no idea of any context that does not feature weapons, and blades... i agree that these are valid contexts in aikido, but not the only ones... you are the one spouting a party line... i am quite the opposite... i will be the first to call bullsh*t on some flowery, fancy, never gonna ever work technique... if you have doubts about aikido and its effectiveness or applicability or context then why do you bother training, couldn't you find something better? having cross trained in arnis and some modern forms of knife fighting i find your lack of insight troubling... were your teachers not good, or explaining poorly, or are you poor students... you have to do the research for yourself... honestly... making broad and inaccurate statements about what aikido is and is not shows your pitiful understanding of this rich art... put up a video or look at Davids videos... unfortunately i do not have any, but seeing what you call aikido would be amusing... aikido must by its very definition and the principle of takemusu aiki MUST be equally armed and unarmed for uke and nage, it must also be eqally artistic/realistic and physical/spiritual... if you lose any of these then you lose aikido and it becomes a dead form... with very little value... i think it does have all these and is valid and living...

Warriors! Rally round the universal true techniques, shine brightly and reveal Aikido to the world!

Over and over, train in the techniques with all your heart. Use the One to strike the Many: This is the Path of a real practitioner.

Sincerity! Cultivate yourself sincerely and thus realize the profound truth that the manifest and hidden are one.
Osensei

Edwin Neal


  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2006, 09:10 PM   #78
Leon Aman
 
Leon Aman's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 52
Philippines
Offline
Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote:
Hi

A while ago I showed my Father Ushiro ryokatadori Kotegashi. Afterwards he claimed that nobody would ever bother to grab you in such a way as Ushiro ryokatadori. I thought about it abit and decided to ask here: Just why exactly would grab you from behind by the shoulders or wrists? (e.g Ushiro Tekubitori).

I've seen more realistic grabs such as Kakaedori online, but for some reason my dojo doesn't practise them. (Atleast not during the duration I've spent there)

Thanks
I agree with some people here that such attack maybe unrealistically in actual situation , but it could and probably happen, so it is better to practice it anyway.

leon
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2006, 09:42 PM   #79
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

there is no such thing as an unrealistic attack... anything can and usually will happen eventually... but you also learn other things by practicing this, such as balance, timing, blending etc...

Edwin Neal


  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2006, 09:53 PM   #80
Meynard
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 32
Offline
Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

First of all I don't think you're understanding what I'm telling you and are choosing to understand it as you would like and putting meanings and vocabulary that were not there. If you're indeed playing devil's advocate then I'd say it's just a waste of time talking to you about these things.

If you're seeking knowledge and really want to understand these things then by all means contact me and we can set up a private lesson.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2006, 10:00 PM   #81
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

i don't think YOU understand what you are saying, and if you mean me contacting you for a private lesson... since you don't mention where or how long you have studied... i will stick with my sensei who has over 50 years of experience and studied with Osensei... but thanks anyway...

Edwin Neal


  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2006, 10:14 PM   #82
Meynard
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 32
Offline
Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

I wasn't talking to you Edwin, but you're welcome too.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2006, 10:50 PM   #83
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

sorry, but i'm east coast... where do you train? got a website? i highly recommend you check out David Valadez website... you may be suprised at what you see... i thought i was the only "crazy lets see what this is all about aikidoka", it really inspired me when i saw his videos... he is one of the real deals in my book...

Edwin Neal


  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2006, 11:21 PM   #84
Meynard
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 32
Offline
Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

I don't have a website or a school.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2006, 12:32 AM   #85
senshincenter
 
senshincenter's Avatar
Dojo: Senshin Center
Location: Dojo Address: 193 Turnpike Rd. Santa Barbara, CA.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,422
United_States
Offline
Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Well I think anyone should be able to express an opinion and be able to participate in a discussion regardless of who or what they are - but if one party does not want to, that should be fine too. Perhaps you are right Meynard - you are right. We should let this one go. Thanks for the offer - either way.

Take care,
dmv

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2006, 09:56 AM   #86
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Interesting discussion. But I think there are several issues at work in aikido, which muddies the water considerably. Let's see if I understand the issues:

Aikdo is weapons based, that's why there are waza that don't make sense in a contemporary context.

Aikido is principle based, and weapons based to some extent, that's why there are waza that don't make sense in a contemporary context.

Aikido is an historical artifact, that's why there are waza that don't make sense in a contemporary context.

Probably all of these are true to some extent, so the real question is what should our focus be?

There is something else to add in to the mix, though it might be under David's principle theory (which I happen to like quite a bit). The more I train in aikido, the more I come to believe that the waza are methods in which to train particular body skills. Without those body skills, we have a collection of historical artifacts (kata, waza, etc), we have a collection of principles (how do we know for sure they aren't also historical artifacts?). I'm still learning about these body skills / methods of moving / aiki, but I am beginning to think that without them, aikido has some serious contextual issues today. That said, I have too many data points from people I know personally and others as well to dismiss the empty hand waza of aikido as not applying at all in today's world.

One point about thrust punching vs boxers punching. It is fairly well known that the method of striking even in say, okinawan arts was fairly new and innovative in japanese martial arts. So it really is no surprise that there is not a lot of that style of striking in aikido. That said, students of Ueshiba like Koroiwa Sensei seemed to have little trouble relating boxing movements to aikido.

Best,
Ron (Hi Maynard, are you still training in Japanese arts? I thought you had moved to a MMA / BJJ training environment?)

PS I'm a little surprised at the statements questioning another person's knowledge and experience...

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2006, 10:16 AM   #87
Meynard
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 32
Offline
Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Hey Ron, It's just frustrating to discuss these things online. It's such a waste of time typing things out.

I'm still doing the mma/bjj thing. It's more of a lab to test my knowledge and ability. It serves its purpose. I still practice my ken jutsu and aiki ju jutsu, but nowadays it has a considerably different flavor. I still see what I do as aiki bugei as I learned it. It's just that my understanding and expression of it reflects the experiences I gained in my own version of musha shugyo.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2006, 10:22 AM   #88
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Sounds good. I think you will add some interesting views to the mix here. Please excuse my forwardness...but perhaps avoiding being too dogmatic might ease the transition... Good to know you are well and still training.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2006, 10:27 AM   #89
Meynard
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 32
Offline
Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Ron,

You should save that comment to Edwin.

I'm just here for a spot and I just find it amusing to talk to aikido people again.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2006, 10:58 AM   #90
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,628
United_States
Offline
Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

I don't think anyone should rule out the possibility of using Aikido as an empty handed system, maybe some truly astute individual will come around and have amazing unarmed abilities using only the techniques of Aikido, some say Ueshiba was such a man, I don't know I wasn't around then.

I do however think that Aikido is a true weapons system, came from, and was developed for weapons use. Using it to learn other means of fighting is not efficient, or practical. You could gain over twice the unarmed ability in under half the time with an unarmed system (wrestling styles, boxing styles). Does this mean Aikido is not a practical martial art? NO, I believe if any of the current MMA champs came with all their unarmed skill up against a capable armed Aikidoka they would be in for some trouble. Further I believe if they (an MMA fighter) were also armed they would be defeated by and armed man trained in a armed system. Arming yourself is the superior way to deal with physical conflict, that's why soldiers arm themselves, and learning a way to use a weapon (the superior means of fighting) you are learning the most practical skills around. In truth Aikido is probably a more practical means a self defense then anyone ever thought.....

-Chris Hein
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2006, 11:47 AM   #91
roosvelt
Location: Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 177
Canada
Offline
Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Quote:
Meynard Ancheta wrote:

:

You talk about principle as if you understand it and yet you don't know why the aikido punch is a silly looking tsuki. Who's not understanding principles and whose stuck on scenario based ideas? You are because you can't even put into context the principles of blade work and how it translates into emptyhands.
I'm all ears.

Instead trying to tell David that he didn't understand, why don't you state your understanding? I appreciated David's effort and time to put his thoughts into words for us to take a stab ut. I'm sure I can learn something as well if you can spare some time to write up your understand to share your knowledge.

Regards
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2006, 11:59 AM   #92
Meynard
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 32
Offline
Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Sorry, but that information is for my students and friends not demanding strangers.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2006, 12:15 PM   #93
roosvelt
Location: Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 177
Canada
Offline
Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Quote:
Meynard Ancheta wrote:
Sorry, but that information is for my students and friends not demanding strangers.
Then why did you bother to tell David that he didn't understand a thing when he freely share his knowledge? To save us the innocent from misinformation? You were just too kind and generous.

Regards
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2006, 12:54 PM   #94
Meynard
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 32
Offline
Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

David can freely share his knowledge that doesn't mean I have to do the same.

Besides he is not saying something that's worth anything to me even if you find them to be gold nuggets.

I've already shared my knowledge. Chris Hein shared his knowledge. It's been met with disdain and insults. It's not my problem that you guys don't know much. It's not my problem that those who you hold in high esteem don't know much.

I'm not about disclose the technical syllabus of what I teach just because you think you can demand it from me. I don't owe you are anyone in this forum anything.

You're lucky to get this much from me. I know those who don't know much try to fish for knowledge and later pawn it off as their own. Sorry, you've got to work at getting to know what I know.

I suffered for my art why don't you.

Shut up and train.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2006, 01:15 PM   #95
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Yousa. That went right down the tube.


R

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2006, 01:18 PM   #96
roosvelt
Location: Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 177
Canada
Offline
Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Quote:
Meynard Ancheta wrote:
David can freely share his knowledge that doesn't mean I have to do the same.

Besides he is not saying something that's worth anything to me even if you find them to be gold nuggets.

I've already shared my knowledge. Chris Hein shared his knowledge. It's been met with disdain and insults. It's not my problem that you guys don't know much. It's not my problem that those who you hold in high esteem don't know much.

I'm not about disclose the technical syllabus of what I teach just because you think you can demand it from me. I don't owe you are anyone in this forum anything.

You're lucky to get this much from me. I know those who don't know much try to fish for knowledge and later pawn it off as their own. Sorry, you've got to work at getting to know what I know.

I suffered for my art why don't you.
Your adorable personality just shines through every single line you wrote. I hope you suffer no more soon.

Regards
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2006, 01:21 PM   #97
tarik
 
tarik's Avatar
Dojo: Iwae Dojo
Location: Boulder Creek, CA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 516
United_States
Offline
Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Meynard,

You're posts are startlingly irate over very little. Perhaps not intended?

Quote:
Meynard Ancheta wrote:
I've already shared my knowledge. Chris Hein shared his knowledge. It's been met with disdain and insults.
Speaking as someone who generally agrees with your description of Aikido as a weapons based system, some of the obvious disdain I've read is in your posts and Chris' posts, intended or not (as Chris commented he came across more strongly than he intended).

Quote:
Meynard Ancheta wrote:
It's not my problem that you guys don't know much. It's not my problem that those who you hold in high esteem don't know much.
Case in point.

Quote:
Meynard Ancheta wrote:
You're lucky to get this much from me.
Lucky?

Quote:
Meynard Ancheta wrote:
I suffered for my art why don't you.
You almost moved me to further sarcasm. I'll just leave that to your imagination.

Quote:
Meynard Ancheta wrote:
Shut up and train.
I strongly agree with this statement. It's the most productive way to learn most of the answers that are sought on this budo forums. A However, interaction and exchange of ideas is also quite meaningful and while there are certainly a plethora of people who post here who don't or barely train, there are a large number of people who also put in a lot of time.

Regards,

Tarik

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2006, 01:24 PM   #98
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Nice post Tarik.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2006, 01:30 PM   #99
Meynard
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 32
Offline
Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

I don't like people who demand as if I owe them something.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2006, 01:59 PM   #100
roosvelt
Location: Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 177
Canada
Offline
Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

It's my fault too. I had too high of expectation from someone who claimed "I've trained in aikido, aiki jujutsu, kenjutsu, tanto jutsu, baguazhang, xingyi, yiquan, taijiquan, bjj, kali, silat, muaythai, krabi krabong and western boxing."

Since you're familiar with "baguazhang, xingyi, yiquan, taijiquan", you think Aikido is just a weapon training system, not a ki or internal art form? Is that your point?
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aikido in Amsterdam, Terry Lax style... tiyler_durden General 11 11-03-2008 08:31 AM
Baseline skillset eyrie Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 1633 05-23-2008 01:35 PM
Women and Everybody Else in Aikido George S. Ledyard Teaching 113 03-16-2008 07:27 PM
For Ted Ehara - Boundary of your aikido? billybob General 123 12-18-2006 04:52 AM
Proposta organização do Aikido Portugal kimusubi0 Portuguese 0 05-03-2004 03:26 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:56 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate