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Old 02-21-2006, 02:14 AM   #51
James Smithe
 
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

This thread has degenerated because you made ridiculoous claims and people felt compelled to tell you how ridiculous your claims are. When people tried to set you straight instead of reading what they said you posted this.

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David,
It is clear to me that you are more interested in intellectual masturbation then actual martial ability.
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Old 02-21-2006, 03:35 AM   #52
eyrie
 
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

It doesn't take great skill to beat the crap out of someone, with or without a stick. What most VTGs think is a "fight", is nothing more than a sport in which blows are traded. A real fight has more to do with being prepared to kill or be killed. It doesn't require anything more than the intent and desire to maim, disable or kill someone. IM(NSH)E.

Besides, stick fighting sounds more like escrima to me than aikido.... which has nothing to do with this topic.

Ignatius
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Old 02-21-2006, 07:42 AM   #53
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
I think it's very strange that you believe dojo time is more important then actual fighting time, in short I don't' think you are qualified to tell me what Aikido is, or is not.
The reason I put spontaneous sparring sessions and/or sporting events under the category of training time should be obvious. The reason I put more emphasis on training time over street time is because street time requires much less skill of us - because of the quality of the "opponent."

I don't think I'm trying to tell you what Aikido is as much as participate in a discussion over what Aikido may be to each of us. My first point is to allow myself, and you as well, of course, a right to an opinion. I choose to respect your right to an opinion by offering a reply worthy of its consideration - which is quite different from be bothered by someone else thinking about Aikido differently than oneself and/or writing in just to tell someone to stop writing, etc.

There were many chances for you to reply here and to stay on topic or at least to stay in the forum format. We don't have to talk about who is qualified and/or not once we agree that everyone can and should have an opinion here.

Do you have any comments on those points made regarding your view of Aikido and it being a weapon art only? Or at least, could you answer and let us know how many times you grab the wrist of one of the Dog Brothers during your match? I don't think me raising those points and/or asking these questions is me suggesting I am more qualified than you to tell you what your Aikido should be - they are just questions, part of a discussion. In the end, our opinions are meaningless here.

dmv

David M. Valadez
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Old 02-21-2006, 09:06 AM   #54
Mark Freeman
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

If anyone wants to be really impressive about their 'martial skills' I would be really impressed if they took themselves off to Ethiopia and met with the male Surma warriors and entered into one of their 'stick fighting competitions'. These guys use 8' hardwood sticks and they weild them with skill, power, speed and ferocity. Oh yes, and they don't wear much clothing let alone headgear. The only fighter that would stand a cats chance in hell in getting anywhere near them would need to be armed with some sort of projectile weapon. The only rule is that you are not allowed to kill your opponent, and that you don't hit someone on the ground. The fights regularly end with serious bumps, deep lacerations, broken bones and lost teeth. But the guys consider it worth it as the winner is seen as a very desirable catch for the women. It also serves as a function of settling old scores.
http://www.africanceremonies.com/cer...urmastick.html

The macho testosterone fuelled western fighting competitions are quite tame by comparison.

back to the thread..

Aikido is neither armed or unarmed it is both and at the same time neither. Aikido is much more than just a 'fighting art' it can be studied like that I admit, but I personally wouldn't want to study an art and only cover one aspect. A bit like being an artist and thinking that watercolour was the only medium!
Aikido can be practiced purely for the 'beauty inherent in the movement' I have known some contemporary dancers study aikido for this reason. And before any of you 'martialists' start to scoff, close the lid on your paints, they'll dry out while you are typing.
Aikido can be practiced for philosophical/spiritual developement reasons, as it also can be practiced specifically to add to ones understanding conflict resolution priciples applicable in the 'real world'. A much more laudible reason in my book that to become a more effective 'fighter'.
I think there are people out there who have never stepped into a dojo who are more in tune with the central meaning of aikido than some who practice it.

As for the wrist grabs.. well as I see it, they are there to provide a route to understanding the principles of aiki not to provide a 'if he does this I do that" menu for use in a 'fight' This is what provides us something to practice with, along with all the other unarmed or armed attacks.
As for grabing someones wrist when they have a weapon in their hand, where I learn my aikido this is not done. It is seen as a route to losing your fingers or worse.
The more time spent looking at the 'fight' aspects of aikido, the less time spent appreciating the sheer beauty of an art that has 'limitless' application.
We should celebrate the art for what it is a way of harmony with ki/nature/spirit.
Multi media art is more creative and ultimately more fullfilling than simply looking at watercolours endlessly.
As far as I know O'sensei was challenged many times and never defeated, why do people keep questioning aikidos martial effectiveness, maybe because they doubt themselves.

So the next time someone starts flouting their fighting credentials, ask them if they have been in a Surma stick fight..

just my 2 penneth worth,

regards,
Mark
p.s. I think I'd have a much better chance of disarming someone weilding a bokken or jo than one of the Surma with an 8' stick!

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-21-2006, 12:49 PM   #55
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

"Do you have any comments on those points made regarding your view of Aikido and it being a weapon art only? Or at least, could you answer and let us know how many times you grab the wrist of one of the Dog Brothers during your match? I don't think me raising those points and/or asking these questions is me suggesting I am more qualified than you to tell you what your Aikido should be - they are just questions, part of a discussion. In the end, our opinions are meaningless here."

Admittedly in my dog brothers fight, I did not grab the wrist, I how ever did grab the weapon, an option I would not have had if the weapon was bladed.
In a fight you have two option if your going to grab your attacker, you can grab an appendage, or the core of the body, in an unarmed fight the choice is clear, you should grab the core of the body, you will have more control over your opponent and it will enable you to do more with him. However in an armed fight going for the core of a persons body and neglecting his weapon hand is a very good way to get yourself cut or stabbed. Neglecting a knock out you cannot (in an armed fight) go for a mans core and disregard his hands without expecting to be cut, stabed, or shot.
Now if I was fighting a guy with a bladed weapon, I would not have been able to grab his weapon, and I would have had to grab his wrist. In my fight yes it did go to grappling, as I believe 90% of fights will if there is not a knock out, a loss of heart, or a death.

There was another thread on here discussing how dangerous it is to use a weapon in a real fight, when someone can take that weapon away from you, Aikido is a system that teaches you to keep your weapon, and stay in position to use it again.

-Chris Hein
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Old 02-21-2006, 02:27 PM   #56
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

As for this thread's topic . . .

Regarding wrist-grabs, shoulder grabs and grabs in general:

How do you think grapplers work? Not every grappler (especially the smart ones) is going to shoot for your legs in a real world confrontation? Wrist-grabs and shoulder grabs are also an excellent means of limb control/displacement if you're trying to bridge the distance to get close enough for core body work (through different types of grips, clinching and hooking) -- especially when someone's also trying to hit you back :grin:

Or better yet . . . ask a collegiate wrestler to demonstrate one-on-one or two-on-one wrist control.

Judo players? Give 'em a shoulder grab and any change in the relationship of your shoulders-to-hips will be enough for them to send you on a trip (yes, I know, bad pun).

Granted, plenty of wrist/shoulder grabs I've seen from an aikido perspective treat the grab as the end-all of the attack, rather than a transitional position to manipulate, close or strike (or club or stab, if we're also factoring in the weapons paradigm).

I can see that way of practice from the standpoint of using your connection with uke as the means of subtly developing aiki and refining your form. But, in my opinion, you also (at some point) have to train against attacks of integrity such that any kind of grab can/will be followed by a strike, throw or worse if you stand there doing nothing. It's good training for both uke and nage.
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Old 02-21-2006, 02:35 PM   #57
tarik
 
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
In my fight yes it did go to grappling, as I believe 90% of fights will if there is not a knock out, a loss of heart, or a death.
I personally believe that this is a fallacy... basically marketing speak from the BJJ crowd.

In my immediate recollection of 5 actual street fights I, as a young foolish person, was personally involved in when growing up in Texas and North Africa only once did any of the fights go to the ground. In a different one, I was knocked down and my opponent watched me get up rather attack me on the ground.

Anecdotally speaking, of course.... but that's only 20% of the fights in my immediate memory. I can think about many more fights I either witnessed or was involved in, but I know that the only other ground fighting I've ever done has been while training or engaged in various sports activities.

To the point of the rest of this thread.

When practicing kihon waza, it is my belief that we are training fundamental principles. Move the grab from wrists to elbows to shoulder to neck to hair or what have you, the ingrained principles are the same and what you need to do to make the technique 'work' should be pretty much the same.

David, while it is unusual terminology, I have heard the phrase energy print used before as an attempt to explain the learning of principles, usually in academic circles.

I also happen to believe that Aikido IS simple. Not easy, but simple, and that being human, we often make such things much more complex than need to be in our attempt to understand depth and difficulty.

Regards,

Tarik

Tarik Ghbeish
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Old 02-21-2006, 03:34 PM   #58
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Tarik, nice post.
Lots of people have differnt oppinions about how often fights go to the ground, in most of the fights I've been involved in, someone ended up on the ground, usually with someone else on top of them whailing away, but I believe what you say, and I'm sure a great number of fights never end up on the ground.

As for the kihon waza training fundamental principles, I believe that's the definition of kihon waza, but other unarmed styles train their kihon from the most common positions they will be in, in a fight, i.e. the clinch, or from a common hold (headlock, bear hug etc.), they do this to insure that their practitioners are comfortable fighting in the positions they will most certainly be in. It's strange that Aikido doesn't do the same.

"I also happen to believe that Aikido IS simple. Not easy, but simple, and that being human, we often make such things much more complex than need to be in our attempt to understand depth and difficulty."

Nicely said.

Budd,

"How do you think grapplers work? Not every grappler (especially the smart ones) is going to shoot for your legs in a real world confrontation? Wrist-grabs and shoulder grabs are also an excellent means of limb control/displacement if you're trying to bridge the distance to get close enough for core body work (through different types of grips, clinching and hooking) -- especially when someone's also trying to hit you back :grin:

Or better yet . . . ask a collegiate wrestler to demonstrate one-on-one or two-on-one wrist control.

Judo players? Give 'em a shoulder grab and any change in the relationship of your shoulders-to-hips will be enough for them to send you on a trip (yes, I know, bad pun).

Granted, plenty of wrist/shoulder grabs I've seen from an aikido perspective treat the grab as the end-all of the attack, rather than a transitional position to manipulate, close or strike (or club or stab, if we're also factoring in the weapons paradigm)."


These are nice points, and correct. But bridging the distance to the core is the sole reason a grappler would grab your wrist. If a wrestler grabs my wrist and I start to apply a nikkyo, the wrestler will just pull his hand away, his goal is to get to my body, not the arm, the arm is simply a means "bridging the gap". However if I have a knife, and you grab my wrist to try and keep me from stabbing you, and I apply nikkyo, you cannot simply pull your hand away, if you do you will be stabbed. Aikido's methods for avoiding wrist grabs has to do with a need for uke to keep the grab, you will often times see Aikido throws where the uke wouldn't have to fall if he simply let go of the hand. When I first saw these throws I thought they were silly, as I would much rather let go of your hand then have you throw me!! but then when I realized that letting go of your hand means I'm going to get cut, it made allot more since to me as to why someone would what to hold on the a wrist for so long.

-Chris Hein
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Old 02-21-2006, 03:56 PM   #59
tarik
 
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Hi Chris,

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
Lots of people have differnt oppinions about how often fights go to the ground, in most of the fights I've been involved in, someone ended up on the ground, usually with someone else on top of them whailing away, but I believe what you say, and I'm sure a great number of fights never end up on the ground.
I suspect it is, in part, what one is used to and how one looks at fighting. The one time (in a real fight) that I ended up on the ground I realized very quickly that I didn't want to stay there because I was also being attacked with a lead pipe by the persons friend. Messy stuff, reality.

Quote:
As for the kihon waza training fundamental principles, I believe that's the definition of kihon waza, but other unarmed styles train their kihon from the most common positions they will be in, in a fight, i.e. the clinch, or from a common hold (headlock, bear hug etc.), they do this to insure that their practitioners are comfortable fighting in the positions they will most certainly be in. It's strange that Aikido doesn't do the same.
Some schools do more of this than others, for sure.

Quote:
These are nice points, and correct. But bridging the distance to the core is the sole reason a grappler would grab your wrist. If a wrestler grabs my wrist and I start to apply a nikkyo, the wrestler will just pull his hand away, his goal is to get to my body, not the arm, the arm is simply a means "bridging the gap". However if I have a knife, and you grab my wrist to try and keep me from stabbing you, and I apply nikkyo, you cannot simply pull your hand away, if you do you will be stabbed.
Nikkyo is too often about pain, which is a distration from the real study. I'd let go also. My training goal with a proper nikkyo is that my partner should not be ABLE to let go. If you start (to pull another thread in) from the perspective of taking your partner's balance, they should not be able to let go at all, at least in the form of Aikido I am currently trying to study.

Quote:
Aikido's methods for avoiding wrist grabs has to do with a need for uke to keep the grab, you will often times see Aikido throws where the uke wouldn't have to fall if he simply let go of the hand. When I first saw these throws I thought they were silly, as I would much rather let go of your hand then have you throw me!! but then when I realized that letting go of your hand means I'm going to get cut, it made allot more since to me as to why someone would what to hold on the a wrist for so long.
If the Aikido training is such that you have a choice to let go or not be thrown, I'm not very interested in that sort of training or technique, although I confess to having indulged in it for some time while trying to figure out what the heck I was supposed to be learning.

I believe that if uke can let go once they've grabbed, than tori has already failed. Not that I can DO this very often, but this is my training goal, no matter how I am grabbed or struck.

Tarik

Tarik Ghbeish
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Old 02-21-2006, 04:05 PM   #60
Meynard
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

The emptyhand methods that lead to the development of aikido came from problems that had to be dealt with during armed confrontations. It's an art that came from the practices and methods of armed men, samurai.

If you're empty handed it would be foolish of you to try to defeat an armed attacker unless you have no other choice. The first choice is to arm yourself. Being armed is the best thing because when you really want to assault someone you'd want to do it with as much unfair advantage as possible.

The problem with aikido is most practitioners don't understand or have never trained with the armed methods of fighting to have realistic understanding of why aikido methods are the way they are.

It is a weapon based empty handed martial arts system that cannot be fully understood unless the practitioner has a true comprehension of weapon fighting.

Grabs in aikido are a matter of weapon retention and or how to prevent another from using their weapon.

Why would anyone grab someone's wrist from the back...clearly if you want to put someone down the best way is to just whack them on the head when they're not looking.

Killing somone is a no, no then and it's no, no now. How do you subdue someone who probably has a knife or two? You prevent them from being able to access their weapon.

Knowing that people will prevent you from accessing your weapon and that you also need to to prevent people from accessing their weapon a method must be developed to solve this problem.

Knowing that in a real fight there would probably be more than one person trying to keep you from getting to your weapon you must also figure out a way to minimize the time spent with each opponent.

In "serious" fight, meaning life or death, you need to access your weapon as soon as possible. If it turns serious enough where your opponents goal turns from subduing you into killing you because you're resisting and pose an imminent threat you also need to figure out a way disarm them or at least get in a range where you can prevent them from accessing their weapon while keeping yours.

If they were able to access their weapon you need to be able to bridge the gap between no contact and contact range without getting hit.

This means you've got to get close enough to grab them and the whole process goes on...
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Old 02-21-2006, 04:24 PM   #61
tarik
 
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Quote:
Meynard Ancheta wrote:
The problem with aikido is most practitioners don't understand or have never trained with the armed methods of fighting to have realistic understanding of why aikido methods are the way they are.
I actually think that this is only a part of the problem with aikido training in general.

Quote:
It is a weapon based empty handed martial arts system that cannot be fully understood unless the practitioner has a true comprehension of weapon fighting.
I've trained in Nisho's approach to aikido and cannot disagree at all with the history and logic of this approach to training.

However, it is not the entire story, as Aikido is, and should be, a living breathing system.

Tarik

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Old 02-21-2006, 05:18 PM   #62
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

I think a lot of arts don't use scenario-based training - especially traditional arts that are not seeking to ingrain habit but rather attempting to address the problematic of spontaneity via the cultivation of an unfettered body/mind. I think the idea of ingraining habit has always been around, but what is new is that so very few folks are out to cultivated unfettered body/minds nowadays. As a result, it looks to many of us moderns that the only way to spontaneity then is to develop habit - making it look like if we aren't doing scenario-based training that we aren't training for real, etc. In my opinion, this is directly at odds (in many ways) with the traditionally prominent model - which tended to see ingrained habit as part of the problem and by no means a solution.

I came across this quote by karateka Kenji Ushiro - he says:

"I personally have found it best to view kata not simply as forms to be learned, but rather as "tools" for studying how to deal with critical situations, and more specifically how to keep myself out of harm's way in those situations. This is how I think about kata, and this is also how kata are viewed within the Shindo-ryu tradition. What it means is that learning and studying kata is not necessarily such a cut-and-dry process, and in fact in some ways is outside the bounds of logic and reason....

In other words, our bujutsu training is not so much about learning techniques as it is about learning how to use the techniques inherent in the kata we practice, and more importantly whether or not we have "usability" of those techniques."

I think he's speaking right to the issue at hand on how to understand things like kata-dori.

On the other point, I get the history and the origins, etc., concerning weapons and Aikido, but the logic just doesn't pan out so I think there is a lot of Aikido leftover even when one wants to talk about origins, etc.

In other words, for example, how do we go from "an art that was for armed men, wanting the supreme advantage, etc.," TO, "let me grab his wrists from the back because sneaking up and konking him is a no-no?" Or, how do we go from, "let me grab his wrist because sneaking up and konking him is a no-no," to, "let me grab his shoulders from the back, leaving his hands free to grab his weapon?" Etc.

In my opinion, the history of any martial art is much more complicated that it appears - history is rarely so cause and effect. In contrast to the view of "this came from that," I would propose that the art has many periods of emphasizing either technique or principle in its past. In my opinion, it is via this waxing and waning between the two orientation that one today comes to see both examples of direct application and examples of something that could be anything but a direct application. As a result, by the time something gets to us, even those examples of direct application that came from the past, because of how many times they themselves have waned during moments of principle being emphasized, are not all that practical and/or applicable.

That said, and this though we emphasize weapons at our dojo, I would never go so far as to say that one needs weapons to understand Aikido (empty hand) - especially in light of how some folks practice with weapons nowadays. When something is coming from the past, all mixed up, in my opinion, one better be able to grab the principle behind the things that are arriving in the present. The worst thing a person could do is to go after things in a literal manner.

David M. Valadez
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Old 02-21-2006, 05:51 PM   #63
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

The problem of how you get from basic grabbing of wrist and forearms to prevent people accessing their weapons to shoulder grabs with no apparent tactical advantage is a matter of the tendency of practitioners to come up with ways to apply technique to different scenario regardless of how ridiculous it is in reality. Meaning once the context of the origin of the art is forgotten many out of context techniques start to develop for artistic sake.

It becomes more of an exercise as to how many ways can X technique be applied. The "is it tactically sound mindset" becomes secondary and the art as a whole degrades over time as other promoters of the "art" try to be creative in expressing the classical techniques. In the end the context is lost and all you have is an art with lots of "style" with no real substance.

It looks pretty, but you can't fight with it. It's an interesting technique, but nobody would grab you like that in real life. ETC.
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Old 02-21-2006, 06:12 PM   #64
Edwin Neal
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

real life like aikido... has an infinite number grabs/attacks/contexts, any of them may happen at some point ie someone WILL do something like that in real life at some point... we train the general to apply to the specific... and ultimately we forget all that and just do...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-21-2006, 06:33 PM   #65
Michael Varin
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Hello,

I started a new thread called "Why these techniques?" Since this thread was the inspiration for it, I would like to invite all of you to share your ideas and maybe answers a few of my questions.

Thanks.

Michael
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Old 02-21-2006, 07:01 PM   #66
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Quote:
Meynard Ancheta wrote:
The problem of how you get from basic grabbing of wrist and forearms to prevent people accessing their weapons to shoulder grabs with no apparent tactical advantage is a matter of the tendency of practitioners to come up with ways to apply technique to different scenario regardless of how ridiculous it is in reality. Meaning once the context of the origin of the art is forgotten many out of context techniques start to develop for artistic sake.

It becomes more of an exercise as to how many ways can X technique be applied. The "is it tactically sound mindset" becomes secondary and the art as a whole degrades over time as other promoters of the "art" try to be creative in expressing the classical techniques. In the end the context is lost and all you have is an art with lots of "style" with no real substance.

It looks pretty, but you can't fight with it. It's an interesting technique, but nobody would grab you like that in real life. ETC.

But this begs the question: If martial reality was the ultimate cause/origin, and if that cause/origin was thought to be addressed via the production of habit, which came via the utilization of scenario-based training, why are folks who came after the "artistic revolution" still likely to do things like shoulder grabs in their training? (For example, Osensei is filmed training in shoulder grabs - even when his art was being called Daito-ryu, etc.)

AND/OR

If scenario-based training was the origin of Aikido's forms, going back further (I am imagining), why punch like a sword stabbing and not like a puncher would punch (even in the old days)? Was the transition from sword stabbing to puncher punching already an artistic revolution in the motion - already a step away from what is practical and toward what is artistic? Was the moment the art was practiced without a weapon in hand the moment it because artistic - stopped being practical?

For me, these questions are all wrong, this whole setup is mucked up. I opt to avoid asking these questions, and thus avoid not being able to answer them, by seeing principle at work in everything Aikido has to offer.
my opinion,
dmv

David M. Valadez
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Old 02-21-2006, 07:29 PM   #67
Edwin Neal
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

good points David... the questions are invalid... aikido is like a springboard... if you think its just a plank then you don't get the true lift from it... my reason for thinking of it as a META martail art...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-21-2006, 07:34 PM   #68
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

"If scenario-based training was the origin of Aikido's forms, going back further (I am imagining), why punch like a sword stabbing and not like a puncher would punch (even in the old days)?"
-DMV

Could it be because it's not a punch, but infact a stab.....

-Chris Hein
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Old 02-21-2006, 07:35 PM   #69
Meynard
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

First part...

Because it was part of the curriculum. The problem with following a curriculum with no understanding the real context as to why certain techniques had to be there is the tendency for actual practical technique to become stylized.

Stylized technique become empty forms. Much of the repertoire in most traditional martial arts have stylized or idealized technique. It's in the curriculum so it's practiced without complete understanding of the purpose, over time the meaning is lost. I'm sure Osensei understood the purpose, I'm just not sure it was imparted.

Second part...

Because a sword stabbing move is not like a boxer's punch. If you understood weapon based fighting you wouldn't have to ask this question.

Holding a long weapon with an end grip like a sword doesn't make for efficient stabs. However it makes for an efficient slash. Holding a long weapon from the middle or 3/4 grip like a staff makes for an efficient thrust, but not necessarily for efficient slashes.

Take the sword and hold it in one hand (right) and take a knife and hold it in the other (left) makes for an efficient slash and thrust movement with both weapons.

Boxers don't fight by holding their fist on top of each other as if they're holding a sword. Do you make a two grip yokomen strike? No. Do you make a two grip shomen uchi strike? No.

You need to understand the nature of the weapon.
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Old 02-21-2006, 08:07 PM   #70
Edwin Neal
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

i just don't get you guys narrow minded insistence that it must be only weapons based and is completely unapplicable to empty hand when it is clearly meant to address both... wake up and smell the coffee... when something is whizzing toward your face whether a fist or a knife you need to move, blend, control... thats one of the things i like about aikido you do the same waza whether you or the attacker are armed or not... you just make minor adjustments instead of learning a whole new curriculum of techniques for each...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-21-2006, 08:14 PM   #71
Meynard
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

I never said it was completely unapplicable to empty hands.

You're talking not out of experience but more out the need to believe some party line.

For example.

Mr. Valadez despite his education and years of experience in teaching aikido and having a strong weapon emphasis in his school didn't understand enough about weapons usage to make an educated comment as to why sword stabs are not like boxers punches.

I'm sure he's good at what he does, but to me this shows a lack of basic knowledge.

Last edited by Meynard : 02-21-2006 at 08:20 PM.
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Old 02-21-2006, 08:26 PM   #72
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
"If scenario-based training was the origin of Aikido's forms, going back further (I am imagining), why punch like a sword stabbing and not like a puncher would punch (even in the old days)?"
-DMV

Could it be because it's not a punch, but infact a stab.....

-Chris Hein
Well if that's the case, why not leave it with the sword in the hand - whether it be a real weapon or a training weapn? And/or - why not at least keep the range of weapons - why stand in a range that is more partial to empty-hand fighting? Etc.

David M. Valadez
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Old 02-21-2006, 08:37 PM   #73
Meynard
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

David,

Are you asking because you don't know?
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Old 02-21-2006, 08:41 PM   #74
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Quote:
Meynard Ancheta wrote:
First part...

Because it was part of the curriculum. The problem with following a curriculum with no understanding the real context as to why certain techniques had to be there is the tendency for actual practical technique to become stylized.

Stylized technique become empty forms. Much of the repertoire in most traditional martial arts have stylized or idealized technique. It's in the curriculum so it's practiced without complete understanding of the purpose, over time the meaning is lost. I'm sure Osensei understood the purpose, I'm just not sure it was imparted.

So are you saying that Osensei understood that kata-dori was a move away from practical training, that it was a stylized, empty form but that he did it anyways because it was part of the curriculum? If you aren't saying that, can you tell me how you are saying something different?

Quote:
Meynard Ancheta wrote:
Second part...

Because a sword stabbing move is not like a boxer's punch. If you understood weapon based fighting you wouldn't have to ask this question.
Why - that's twice in this thread - and I'm still waiting for some video of Chris' real Aikido so I can contrast it with my fake intellectually masturbating Aikido. How about you, got some video of your weapons work so that I can contrast it with my ignorant weapons work?


Quote:
Meynard Ancheta wrote:
Holding a long weapon with an end grip like a sword doesn't make for efficient stabs. However it makes for an efficient slash. Holding a long weapon from the middle or 3/4 grip like a staff makes for an efficient thrust, but not necessarily for efficient slashes.

Take the sword and hold it in one hand (right) and take a knife and hold it in the other (left) makes for an efficient slash and thrust movement with both weapons.

Boxers don't fight by holding their fist on top of each other as if they're holding a sword. Do you make a two grip yokomen strike? No. Do you make a two grip shomen uchi strike? No.

You need to understand the nature of the weapon.
My question was not centered on current boxing methods. My question was concerned with the way folks punched back when these arts opted to train for a tsuki without a sword in hand. I don't care how different it was from boxing of today, that punching style was certainly not like a how you stab with a sword/blade, etc. So the question remains, if these arts were about weapons, and if these arts find their practicality in scenario-based training (which is your view - not mine) why was the sword taken out of the hand? Or, why when the sword was taken out of the hand did these arts not develop a more "realistic" (i.e. scenario appropriate) punch to deal with.

My answer to this solves this issue (i.e. aikido training is principle-based, not scenario-based) - yours does not. You are either going to end up with an artistic revolution occurring way before Osensei - making him practice stylized empty techniques for the sake of curriculum (as you did above) - or you are going to have to say that folks did in fact punch like this (i.e. mune tsuki) - which was hardly true. You can't say that no artistic revolution occurred prior to Osensei at the same time that you are saying empty-hand mune-tsuki is scenario-based training with a sword.

David M. Valadez
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Old 02-21-2006, 08:54 PM   #75
Meynard
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Nope. Ueshiba understood the context of the technique and did it as part of the curriculum he learned, but nobody else seemed to.

I don't need to show you a video of my weapons work. I can come there and show it to you personally.

Sorry, I never used the words scenario based training. That's not a term I used. You did. I never said that aikido was scenario based, you did.

You talk about principle as if you understand it and yet you don't know why the aikido punch is a silly looking tsuki. Who's not understanding principles and whose stuck on scenario based ideas? You are because you can't even put into context the principles of blade work and how it translates into emptyhands.

Last edited by Meynard : 02-21-2006 at 08:59 PM.
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