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Old 02-19-2006, 09:19 PM   #26
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote:
One answer I haven't seen yet, is that you train with ushiro ryoutetori for the same reason you train morotetori. Not because it's necessarily a likely situation in combat (none of the kihon waza are really intended as realistic self-defense scenarios), but because it trains in the essential principles of the art. In this case, using kokyuu-ryoku (rather than muscle strength), keeping one's power centered, understanding maai, etc. In theory, if you can properly do a technique from a static ushiro ryoutetori, you can do it from a flowing ushiro katatori, kubishime, etc.
This, I think, is the answer that best suits me.

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Old 02-19-2006, 09:27 PM   #27
PeterR
 
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
David,
It is clear to me that you are more interested in intellectual masturbation then actual martial ability.
So David likes to write long posts - but that was uncalled for.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-19-2006, 09:29 PM   #28
senshincenter
 
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
David,
It is clear to me that you are more interested in intellectual masturbation then actual martial ability.

-Chris
Real nice Chris. Thanks.

The silliness that you say what you say in an Internet forum must have passed over your head with everything else - it is clear to me.

Now all you got to do is write me again to tell me you won't be writing me anymore.

Oh well - sorry for the stress you are feeling - if I had any part in that. Have a good rest of the evening.

Take care,
dmv

David M. Valadez
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Old 02-19-2006, 09:44 PM   #29
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

David,
I didn't mean that as an insult, I'm simply saying that you are more interested in intellectualizing Aikido then you are in understanding what it is. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, but I'm just calling them as I see them. I believe you are a very sincere person, who really wants to understand the system, but I think you're over thinking it. In post after post you talk all the way around the subject, addressing it with more and more intellectualization, I think you're a very smart person, but maybe that's keeping you from seeing what the system is.

-Chris
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Old 02-19-2006, 10:00 PM   #30
Edwin Neal
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

hey chris... i'm not angry, and there is no need to PM me just to say that, i just don't like assholes who are rude... tried looking at your website, but there isn't any info on you... so i stand by my earlier assertion that you don't really know much about aikido... i have doubts that you have even studied with any teacher of even mediocre skill or understanding... read some of the threads that you started here and they only reinforce my opinion... if you have something intelligent to say, which i doubt, just say it without being rude, and then trying to act like you weren't... allow me to break protocol and ask how long you have studied and with whom? books and videos and wrestling with your boyfriends doesn't count...

ps for what it's worth i will take what david thinks over your bull any day...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-19-2006, 10:09 PM   #31
senshincenter
 
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Chris,

If I thought like that, I'd be saying the same thing when reading Osensei - "Man, why you got to make things so complex - it must be because you don't get it?!"

Before you know if someone is off the mark, you got to know you understand them - and you've already said you couldn't. This is not calling them like you seem them, this is calling them when you can't see them. There's a difference - right? Moreover, there are better ways of expressing your disagreement with something - assuming one can express their point of view - and that is what this forum is about (in my opinion). It is about dissimilar views coming into contact with each other - it is not about two folks saying, "Well, you think differently that I do, so you must be lame."

There were many points I offered in my second to last post to you that you did not address. For example, your idea that Aikido has no answers in hand-to-hand situations but does so for weapons fighting is something that may only be clear to you - it's not to me. I would imagine it is not clear to a great many other people - especially folks that train in the usage of current weapons. I was trying to have a dialog. Only one of us was trying to go away and keep his ideas to himself - since you brought up the masturbation reference.

Additionally, I think it is an unwise assumption on your part to feel that if one THINKS that one is not DOING. Perhaps that is your experience - but my experience is quite different. My teachers have always managed to do both - always feeling you need to do both. To discuss something, we have to allow for different experiences. I do not try to universalize my experience and see you through that light only - which is why I may first feel that your view could only come from someone that has at most trained 5 to 15 years in one or an accumulated several martial arts, focusing mainly on forms training (with hints of pseudo-spontaneity training), with practice consisting mostly of 2 to 4 hours a week. I don't run with that idea because I know it is very likely, no matter how plausible it first seems otherwise,that I would be completely wrong about you if that is what I thought based solely on a paragraph or two that you wrote. Like I said in another thread - I'd like to see video of you before I even start down that road of trying to figure out where your ideas are coming from. In short, it is a mistake to go backwards from idea to person when we are opting to only see the world through our own subjective (extremely) limited perspective. A broader mind is needed here. If one doesn't want to broaden their mind, that's fine - only I wonder why such a person would post at all since not posting would be the surest way of keeping one's ideas all to oneself.

David M. Valadez
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Old 02-19-2006, 10:27 PM   #32
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

I can understand what you are saying, but I don't' understand why you would explain yourself in such a way, it is far more complicated then you need make it. You should be looking to make the complicated simple, not the other way around.

About the 5-15 years you are correct, I've only been studying Aikido 10 years. In that 10 years, I've been uchi deshi for a year of if, studying full time 4-5 classes a day, and done and average of 3-4 classes a week for most of the rest of that. I have studied Aikido under Patrick Cassidy, and Brazilian Jiu jutsu and chinese internal under Tim Cartmell. I have fought in several mma and bjj tournaments, and I have fought with the dog brothers. Only 10 years though, hmm if I were training to be a doctor I'd be out of residency by now, do you think Aikido is more complicated then medical science? I know many great fighters that have had professional fights in much less time in then 10 years. This is part of the problem that I am talking about, fighting is pretty simple, and I would say anyone telling you other wise is probably the one using a marketing gimmick.

Fighting is simple, but the study of if can last a life time, that's the beauty of it. When you are trying to tell new people about Aikido you shouldn't be complicating the matter, that makes it seem to me that you are more interested in talking about the experience then trying to help others experience the experience.

-Chris Hein
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Old 02-19-2006, 10:50 PM   #33
Edwin Neal
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

yeah it all sounds pretty good, but you don't sound like a very good student... and your understanding of aikido is pretty different than most people here, and people i have studied with... and i trust their opinions more than your half baked notions... it is pretty obvious from your posts that you have a flawed understanding of aikido... and you can't get it from wearing a t shirt either...

http://www.shenwu.com/cgi-bin/discus...mr_chris-users

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-19-2006, 11:15 PM   #34
Charlie
 
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

who is Peter Ralston?

Charles Burmeister
Aikido Yoshinkan Yoseikai

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Old 02-20-2006, 12:15 AM   #35
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
About the 5-15 years you are correct, I've only been studying Aikido 10 years. In that 10 years, I've been uchi deshi for a year of if, studying full time 4-5 classes a day, and done and average of 3-4 classes a week for most of the rest of that. I have studied Aikido under Patrick Cassidy, and Brazilian Jiu jutsu and chinese internal under Tim Cartmell. I have fought in several mma and bjj tournaments
Well, then I wasn't too far off - was I? But isn't it a bit silly then to tell someone that does your training week in half a day that thinking means not doing?

Either way, I get your point - how I speak is not your cup of tea. Perfectly understandable and definitely acceptable.

Thanks again for letting me know,
dmv

David M. Valadez
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Old 02-20-2006, 12:24 AM   #36
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
Well, then I wasn't too far off - was I? But isn't it a bit silly then to tell someone that does your training week in half a day that thinking means not doing?
dmv

How many full contact stick fights have you been in?

-Chris Hein
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Old 02-20-2006, 12:42 AM   #37
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

It looks like James Smithe is gonna have to call you on some stuff Chris. You have fought in MMA and BJJ tournaments? Whats your stand up. Chinse internal that could mean antying.
What do you mean you fought with the dog brothers, do you mean train because that's believable fighting with them is not. I noticed you put your picture on the web wouldn't someone like you also put video of your tournaments on the web too.
Name the Governing body of the tournaments that you entered, what rank/weight class you were in and which place did you achieve. Until you show proof everything you said will be thought of as bull.

A lot of people here don't think kindly of me, but what you said to David was totally rude and not even I said anything remotely like that even when people considered me an arse.
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Old 02-20-2006, 12:53 AM   #38
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

I have fought with the dog bothers, not trained. There is video of me fighting with them on there staff fighting video, I fought Ben Shariden "lonely dog", you can see a clip of it at the dog brothers web site. I am wearing white gi pants and the very same shirt that Edwin is talking about in an earlier post. I have never had a professional fight, I have fought in several of Cleber Lucianos tournaments, the Machado world grappling games, and the annual shen wu tournament. If you have any doubts I'm sure you can send an e-mail to Tim Cartmell, he can testify for my authenticity as a fighter in both MMA, BJJ, and a full contact stick fight with the dog brothers.

Tim Carmells web site: www.shenwu.com
Dog brothers: www.dogbrothers.com

Again if you doubt my stick fight with the dog brothers it's all documented, and you can see for yourself.

-Chris Hein

p.s. My web site is not fully functional yet, I'm not as web savy as I should be.

Last edited by ChrisHein : 02-20-2006 at 12:57 AM.
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Old 02-20-2006, 01:36 AM   #39
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

I'm having trouble locating you on the staff video can you give me the exact time where you appear. I'm not asking Tim Carmells I'm asking you. Just name the exact tournaments that you entered recently, what rank/weight class you were in and which place did you achieve. It's not unusual to enter these things, but alot of people like to come online and say stuff they didn't do or make what they did do out of proportion.

Do you use Aikido as your stand up? You said you've been doing it for ten years so you must use it as your primary stand up right?
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Old 02-20-2006, 01:43 AM   #40
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

I weigh about 200 right now, I think I weighed 185 there, I'm not blowing anything out of proportion, I fought in a stick fight, I have fought in MMA and Bjj. I'm not a super cage fighter, and no one has ever flown me to japan to fight, I'm just a guy who has done Aikido and been in several fights. I however and not going to watch the video till I find the right time, here is a link to a shen wu forum There is a disscussion there on my fight, if you search my name (chris Hein) number 5-Shen Wu : Fight Art 2: smaller files (Shenwu in Action): Archive through May 04, 2004

http://www.shenwu.com/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi

There are pictures on there of me fighting, you can then look at the clip again, and see it's me.

I haven't fought in a few years, I got sick of making weight, and dealing with the stress.


Now I'm going to bed, I've been at this sillyness too too long today.
-Chris Hein

Last edited by ChrisHein : 02-20-2006 at 01:47 AM.
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Old 02-20-2006, 06:25 AM   #41
justinmaceachern
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Every time i come on here all i here is a bunch of bs. Personally i will stick to what Valadaz is saying. Chris i am sure your ability to fight with sticks are good. To be honest with you i enjoy watching people with sticks go at it. Man they are just sticks, not much of a acomplishment.
Secondly If you think there is way to simplify aikido then you have been under the wrong influance. Now i havent been studying as long as you guys, I am only a 3rd kyu, but i actualy study the art inside and out. there is nothing simple about aikido.
Thirdly your coments to Valadez Sensei are uncalled for. This is an open forum, that does not mean you have the right to express opinions in a rude manner. Now i am not doubting your abilities,
I have been reserching your Sensei Mr. cassidy in fact i will be training with one of his students in nova scotia, a Mr. Andrew Waight. And i dont believe they share the same views as you do.
IMOO when you start to simplafy an art you start to water it down(Soften up), I know all to well i have been there with my experience in Taekwondo with the diference between the two styles of taekwondo (ITF and WTF).
These are just my thoughts
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Old 02-20-2006, 06:43 AM   #42
rottunpunk
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

eh ehrm. Anyways, back on topic.

We were doing ushiro attacks a couple of weeks ago. I agree with the comment about it teaching kokyu, (which sparked off my extension thread)

In addition, my teacher commented that most women get attacked from behid (i can personally see the shoulder grab being realistic but not the wrists) but who said a martial art had to be realistic?
Its along the lines of people who say doing iai or kendo is useless.

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Old 02-20-2006, 11:02 AM   #43
justinmaceachern
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Chris my thread might of came out the wrong way, in no means was i trying to insult or offend. If i did please let me know. and i will say high to Mr. Weight.
PS thanks for the corection
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Old 02-20-2006, 11:23 AM   #44
Edwin Neal
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

well said James...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-20-2006, 11:29 AM   #45
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

(Skip if too long - you are right about this being silliness. Nothing is likely to change here. You didn't like the term "energy prints" and you don't like folks thinking about the art/practice. Got it.)

(For others, I tried to suggest a way of tying this back into the thread - it's at the end of this post)



I've never been in a stick fight - only spontaneous training situations with contact. As you can see, I make a distinction between the two.

In those times, even in that dueling setup, I never grabbed the opponent's stick or wrist, or at least not without getting whacked to high hell from some other weapon (the opposite hand, knife, or club). In your fight with the Dog Brothers, how many times did you control their weapon (and the rest of their weapons) by grabbing at their wrist?

The reason I suspected so accurately concerning your training is that your views seemed "half-baked." I mean that they are good ideas, good starts for further ideas, but that they are not yet thought out completely, to determine if they can remain internally consistent or if they end up contradicting themselves. It is not as you would like us to believe that you do not commit the "crime" of thinking about your art/practice. However, in my opinion, it is that you have put in that X amount of time only, and that this time only allows for a given amount of sophistication regarding thinking about one's practice. Things get increased on top of that because X amount of time also often allows one to hold conclusions that are half-baked but in a way that that the unbaked half goes completely unnoticed.

For example, your understanding of Aikido Kihon Waza being about weapons fighting and about weapon retention, etc., and that only, etc...

Undoubtedly, since I doubt with four hours per week you are spending enough time doing the techniques this way (i.e. with a weapon ready to be retained or drawn), such that you can reach this conclusion on your own, I imagine this conclusion came to you via some other teacher that you respect. That's perfectly fine - we all do that. But now you are working backwards in your training - starting with a conclusion and then trying to figure everything into it so that it makes sense universally. Additionally, you are rejecting everything a priori - anything that does not fly with it from the get-go. This is why "not thinking" is so important to you. It is a huge part of what is allowing your position to appear consistent - for if you thought about things a bit more, or if you developed a training practice in Aikido that would force you to think about things a bit more, you'd quickly realize that this view can hardly be universally applied to the art's Kihon Waza.

For if you thought but just a little, you'd at least ask, "If that is all Aikido is, then why don't we just train like that - why don't we do like some of the Koryu arts and place a sword in our obi and thus train to retain and/or to arm our weapons? Why go on into Ikkyo, Irimi Nage, etc. If you asked this, you'd have no way of making sense of how Aikido training ends up departing from the training and architecture of having a sword in your obi, going on to arm it or to retain it.

Or, if you started thinking a bit historically, which one does after many hours of training have been accumulated - you'd have one heck of a time making sense of your position regarding Aikido Kihon Waza and Osensei's constant statements that he was into the universal movements of Nature, etc. - that he never said nor hinted that Aikido should be looked at with so minimalistic a view, being an art that WAS ONLY ABOUT fighting with weapons and/or retaining weapons, etc.

Or, if you spent more hours training on the mat per week, you would probably more easily come across cues/attacks/energy prints that don't at all fit the model of arming a weapon and/or retaining a weapons - such as with eri dori, kata dori, kubishime katate dori, etc. For example, if I am grabbed in kubishime katate-dori, with my knife being in the middle of my front, I am able to grab it with either hand - why go on to all this other stuff (i.e. ikkyo, irimi nage) if I can just stab my attacker there? If I'm into weapons fighting and if I'm into that being martially practical, why do I want to go on to do Irimi Nage, then stabbing my felled opponent, risking all that room for countering, reversals, etc., when I can just simply stab them right then and there in the midst of their attack? That would be a question that would naturally spring to mind and that one would have a tough time answering if one was to dogmatically stick with the idea that Aikido is not about empty-hand fighting.

I can agree with you that there are some levels of not training that are very much supported by thinking too much, however this level of thought is easily identifiable because of the ignorant simplicity it contains (i.e. it leaves out more than it includes). Regardless, I would like to suggest that there is also a level of not thinking that is equally supported by a level of not training.

When someone way out in cyberspace can predict a training experience so accurately based upon how much a person did not want to think, it's time to get a hold of a little self-doubt and wonder if one is subject to the latter criticism - to wonder if one is being truly insightful by throwing the first criticism out there or if one is just protecting one's own status quo of having only developing ideas and a developing training regiment.

All that said, here is a simple experiment to see how easy or how hard Aikido is - taken right from this thread...so it should bring us back to the thread topic...

Stand in a natural stance. Have your friend, who is standing in front of you, put his/her cross-lateral hand on your shoulder and offer some resistance to your forward progress. Attempt to step forward with your homo-lateral leg (same leg as your shoulder). Watch how what is easy is to break the body fusion between your shoulder and your same side hip and how difficult it is to maintain this relationship without muscling or forcing it, without losing your connection to the ground, without losing environmental awareness, without losing a martially viable posture, etc. Repeat this experiment from the back, from the side, from the angle, etc. - then one will know a good reason for doing kata-dori training. The reason: Because it's hard to move right when your shoulder is a weak-point, and it's easy to have your shoulder as a weak-point in the hip-elbow-shoulder relationship.

Last edited by senshincenter : 02-20-2006 at 11:44 AM.

David M. Valadez
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Old 02-20-2006, 12:56 PM   #46
MattRice
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Quote:
Deborah Bell wrote:
...i can personally see the shoulder grab being realistic but not the wrists...
You know, I heard this news story about a journalist in Iraq, who was nearly abducted wtihin sight of some marines in a guard tower. They broke it up, but her description of the attempt starts out: "Someone grabbed my wrist from behind and started pulling me down the street"

Another guy came and grabbed her around the waist after the initial contact and they were trying to get her into a car. It's just one incident but I think that wrist grabs are more common than folks think.


.02.
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Old 02-20-2006, 01:58 PM   #47
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Adding to that, the one time my wife was "attacked" for real - an older man had grabbed her shoulder. She had trained for a bit in Karate at that time - couldn't budge or budge the man (or his grip) for nothing. It was and remains quite a shocking realization for her.

David M. Valadez
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Old 02-20-2006, 05:04 PM   #48
James Smithe
 
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
I weigh about 200 right now, I think I weighed 185 there, I'm not blowing anything out of proportion, I fought in a stick fight, I have fought in MMA and Bjj. I'm not a super cage fighter, and no one has ever flown me to japan to fight, I'm just a guy who has done Aikido and been in several fights. I however and not going to watch the video till I find the right time, here is a link to a shen wu forum There is a disscussion there on my fight, if you search my name (chris Hein) number 5-Shen Wu : Fight Art 2: smaller files (Shenwu in Action): Archive through May 04, 2004

http://www.shenwu.com/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi

There are pictures on there of me fighting, you can then look at the clip again, and see it's me.

I haven't fought in a few years, I got sick of making weight, and dealing with the stress.


Now I'm going to bed, I've been at this sillyness too too long today.
-Chris Hein
Since when is fighting with body armor full contact Chris? I looked at the video and it looks like you fought in a tournament. You didn't really fight it was a tournament. Do I need to explain the difference between tournament fighting and a straight fight?
You refuse to directly answer my questions about what place you got in these tournaments. I'll have to assume that you failed so misrably that you shouldn't even mentioned you entered any of these tournaments.
I looked up what a San Shou tournament is. They say it's full contact but they wear a HELMET with a piece of plastic protecting your face. None of the things you mentioned are full contact. Also it doesn't sound like you use Aikido as your primary stand up so you must not be good at it.

Heres an example of something that's full contact. Notice the lack of armor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rta0q...&search=Kumite
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Old 02-20-2006, 05:43 PM   #49
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Let's see if we can get back to the topic of the thread. I think the point here was to allow folks their opinion - everyone has a right to one. So let's share some more.

thanks,
dmv

David M. Valadez
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Old 02-20-2006, 09:56 PM   #50
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

David, you are very happy that you guessed my training was in-between 5-15 years, You certainly did narrow it down; to 10 years! Excellent!

James, that clip you offered as full contact, it's a joke right? Have you seen a stick fight as done by the dog brothers? The only armor you ware is a fencing mask (ever ware a fencing mask, not exactly what I would call armor) and gloves, nothing else is padded, and you use real rattan sticks, comparing the way the dog brothers fight to that clip is laughable.

David your opinion of Aikido and mine differ, this is clear. You believe that I should spend more hours in the Dojo, and maybe I would have a more sophisticated view if I had another 20 years under my belt. I think you should leave the safety of your dojo, and try actually fighting. I think you have lots more training time then me, but much less actual experience, I think it's very strange that you believe dojo time is more important then actual fighting time, in short I don't' think you are qualified to tell me what Aikido is, or is not.

-Chris Hein
If anyone would like to continue this, you can send me a PM, as this thread has degenerated, and that is not my intention.
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