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Old 02-15-2006, 06:34 PM   #1
Huker
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Cheney's Hunting Incident

I was careful not to call it an accident.

What are people's thoughts on the matter? Personally, I am skeptical that it was accidental at all. On top of that, the facts are a little iffy. I have more reading to do on it, but I just wanted to get the ball rolling on a discussion.

We'll see if Cheney even gets manslaughter.

Opinions???
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Old 02-15-2006, 06:52 PM   #2
Michael O'Brien
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Re: Cheney's Hunting Incident

Quote:
Tanner Hukezalie wrote:
I was careful not to call it an accident.

What are people's thoughts on the matter? Personally, I am skeptical that it was accidental at all. On top of that, the facts are a little iffy. I have more reading to do on it, but I just wanted to get the ball rolling on a discussion.

We'll see if Cheney even gets manslaughter.

Opinions???
First off, from everything I have read, including parts of the investigation performed by the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department there is no reason to refer to it as anything other than an *ACCIDENT*.

Also, why would you feel the need to be skeptical? Does VP Cheney have a reason to kill this man you would like to share with us? If he did have a reason to want him dead I'm also thinking he could come with a better way than this.

Secondly, how do you propose he gets a manslaughter charge?
NO ONE IS DEAD! Which happens to be a prerequiste to be charged with manslaughter.

The one thing I can agree with is that you have more reading you need to do.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
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Old 02-15-2006, 06:59 PM   #3
Don_Modesto
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Re: Cheney's Hunting Incident

Quote:
Tanner Hukezalie wrote:
I was careful not to call it an accident.

What are people's thoughts on the matter? Personally, I am skeptical that it was accidental at all. On top of that, the facts are a little iffy. I have more reading to do on it, but I just wanted to get the ball rolling on a discussion.

We'll see if Cheney even gets manslaughter.

Opinions???
Um...to get manslaughter, the victim would have to die.

Personally, I'd rather Cheney get got for treason (betraying agents in the field), crimes against humanity (torture, war-mongering), crimes against civil liberties, incompetence (9.11, Katrina), lying to the American people and Congress, or unalloyed greed and corruption--can you say, "No-bid contracts?"

Geez, comedians couldn't make this stuff up if they tried.

No, I don't think the VP--slimy, venal, vindictive, vicious, lying, treasonous, greedy, shameless bastard that he is--meant to shoot the dude.

For a more temperate opinion, try:

http://www.comedycentral.com/sitewid...l?itemId=59068

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
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Old 02-15-2006, 07:33 PM   #4
Huker
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Re: Cheney's Hunting Incident

Hmm, such hostility.

Ok, here goes:

You're right, someone does have to die for a manslaughter charge to apply. But that would be the "we'll see" part of my original post. This does imply that I expect Whittington to die. He did get shot in the chest and neck. Then, somehow, the birdshot migrated to his heart triggering what many news sources call a mild heart attack.

As for skeptical -- I've been so ever since I opened my eyes and started actually reading about 9/11. This is all a chain of events. As for a reason why someone would deliberately shoot this Texas lawyer, I do not yet know. Maybe he was going to blow the whistle on something. Maybe he knew too much about something the neocons didn't want him to know so much about. Maybe he was involved in a case they didnt' want him involved in. Maybe it was an accident. Nothing says experienced hunter and NRA member like not pointing your gun at the ground and hunting while under the influence. Butterfingers.

Don, they got Al Capone on tax evasion of all things. I'm sure many would have preferred different, but that's the way it went. My point was that I'm sure he won't get jailtime. If the heart attack is what kills him, then it would give Cheney a way out of punishment. That would make it awefully convenient, no?

Just my thoughts.
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Old 02-15-2006, 08:00 PM   #5
Michael O'Brien
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Re: Cheney's Hunting Incident

His gun wasn't pointed at the ground; He was shooting at a bird approximately 30 yards away from all reports I have seen.

Also, I am an NRA member and no, I don't hunt while drinking or after drinking, but I do know people that do, so it happens. I have also been "peppered" with bird shot while hunting dove and quail by other "experienced" hunters so that happens as well.

Thank goodness I have never had an experience such as this one and hopefully I never will but from firsthand hunting experience myself I know how a situation could happen.

Everything isn't a conspiracy and sometimes an accident is really an accident.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
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Old 02-15-2006, 09:05 PM   #6
Mashu
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Re: Cheney's Hunting Incident

I bet that lawyer is wishing they had been fly fishing instead right about now.
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Old 02-15-2006, 09:30 PM   #7
James Smithe
 
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Re: Cheney's Hunting Incident

What a dumbass he's at least 65 years old, has a heart condition and he's out hunting with his buddies. I was cracking up when I first saw this on the news. Cheney you're too old for this mess.
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Old 02-15-2006, 09:43 PM   #8
ramenboy
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Re: Cheney's Hunting Incident

just like the way the bush administration has been run for the last how many years...ready. fire. aim.
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Old 02-16-2006, 06:02 AM   #9
Huker
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Re: Cheney's Hunting Incident

I like the analogy, Jerome. It fits so well!!
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Old 02-16-2006, 06:32 AM   #10
Huker
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Re: Cheney's Hunting Incident

In response to Michael's post:

You're right in saying that not everything is a conspiracy. It is also safe to say that some things are a conspiracy. After all that has happened since 9-11, how can someone not question their every move? At the very least it would only be prudent to do so.

From a lot of the reports I've read, it sounds as though Cheney shot while turning, which he would have had to do to hit a fellow 30 yards away. This is another amateur move. Sounds like Cheney wanted to be a gunslinger instead of VP. On top of that, you typically lead a bird rather than fire directly at it. These things beg the question: how could he have not seen Whittington?

In addition, bird shot isn't very effective at 30 yards. I've been hunting a number of times and have rarely seen a bird die or take any substantial damage from a more powerful 12 gauge (Cheney was using a 28 gauge, I believe) at distances greater than 30-40 ft. At a range like that you might get a wing or something and have to reload. Also, damage is not localized to a 1ft radius at 30 yards when using a conventional shotgun. No way.

Again, the information doesn't add up very well. Given the track record of the Bush admin and that very little of this makes any sense, my logical conclusion is that someone isn't telling the truth. The possibility exists that it was an accident. Thus far, that situation sounds improbable.

Any more opinions?
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Old 02-16-2006, 07:59 AM   #11
SeiserL
 
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Re: Cheney's Hunting Incident

Some of you have much higher opinions of humans than I do. I don't think everything everyone does is a conscious conspiracy with malintent. Some things, most things, IMHO, are just accidents because we are all very imperfect human beings in an imperfect world.

Those who have never made a mistake and hurt a friend, pick up your stones.

Get over it and get back to training.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 02-16-2006, 08:37 AM   #12
Taliesin
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Re: Cheney's Hunting Incident

To me it seems likely that it was an accident - the VP is far too busy with all his other work , lying the the American public, inciting torture, abusing Constitutional rights and Civil Liberties, giving money to his campaign contributors, etc to try and shoot the guy.

A more serious question is - if that sort of carelessness is 'just something that happens' shouldn't there be more control over sales of 'sporting guns'
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Old 02-16-2006, 08:52 AM   #13
Hogan
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Re: Cheney's Hunting Incident

I want to congratulate all the Bush/Cheney haters / conspiracy theorists who have waited for several days until bashing him for this as well. I expected to see the hate the day it was annouced - so congrats.
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Old 02-16-2006, 09:07 AM   #14
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Cheney's Hunting Incident

Hi John, I considered posting a joke about the Gang that Couldn't Shoot Straight, but decided against it. I think because it's so obvious, it wouldn't really have any punch. Frankly, the administration does such a good job of giving us amunition, we don't even have to dig very much.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 02-16-2006, 09:28 AM   #15
ramenboy
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Re: Cheney's Hunting Incident

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
......the administration does such a good job of giving us amunition, we don't even have to dig very much...
ron, as always, very well put.

lynn,
yes, we're all human and imperfect. but when certain people try to position themselves above everyone else, and try to put themselves above law, its IS something when THEY make a mistake and try to play it down, or in this case, try to pretend nothing happened for 2 days.

i don't see anyone casting stones. i see people being amused by a bumbling administration

oh, and tanner,
i'm right there with ya!!!!! ha!

and now back to our regularly scheduled keiko

Last edited by ramenboy : 02-16-2006 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 02-16-2006, 09:48 AM   #16
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Cheney's Hunting Incident

MMMMMmmmmmmmm, keiko.

Best,
RT

Ron Tisdale
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St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 02-16-2006, 10:11 AM   #17
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: Cheney's Hunting Incident

I'm not a fan of the current Administration, but I find it hard to believe that if someone wanted Whittington dead they would sic the Vice President on him with birdshot.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
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Old 02-16-2006, 10:15 AM   #18
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Cheney's Hunting Incident

Yeah...that whole idea just kind of boggles the mind...but then again, look at some of the other snaffus. They sent Scooter Libby after what's-his-faces wife. And he didn't even have bird shot...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 02-16-2006, 10:54 AM   #19
James Davis
 
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Re: Cheney's Hunting Incident

If you want to kill someone on a hunting trip and make it look like an accident, go hunting for bear. If you want to kill a guy and keep it a secret, don't send the VP (surrounded by secret service agents and accompanied by an ambulance close by) to do the deed.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 02-16-2006, 11:09 AM   #20
Neil Mick
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Re: Cheney's Hunting Incident

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote:
I don't think everything everyone does is a conscious conspiracy with malintent. Some things, most things, IMHO, are just accidents because we are all very imperfect human beings in an imperfect world.

Those who have never made a mistake and hurt a friend, pick up your stones.
Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
I want to congratulate all the Bush/Cheney haters / conspiracy theorists who have waited for several days until bashing him for this as well. I expected to see the hate the day it was annouced - so congrats.
Oh, please. Even tho this story has been vastly overreported, IMO: you're both forgetting something vital...we're not just talking about some average Joe hunting overdomesticated game, from the comfy safety of his car... ...we're talking about the Veep, here. The last veep who shot someone was Alexander Hamilton.

And some of the elements of this story are more than a little disturbing:

1. The Bush House waited so long (12 hrs) to report the story;
2. No apology seems forthcoming, even tho the Veep did not have the appropriate permits or seemed to follow basic safety rules;
3. The whole "hunt-from-my-car" business seems disturbing, but right in character for a man who organized an energy task force composed of his oil-cronies.

All the elements...the secrecy, the casual disregard for safety, the concern for media-spin versus empathy for his "victim"...all these elements are symptoms of just what is wrong with this Administration.

But the story itself is vastly overblown, IMO.

And now, back to training.
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Old 02-16-2006, 12:02 PM   #21
Mark Freeman
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Re: Cheney's Hunting Incident

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote:
Personally, I'd rather Cheney get got for treason (betraying agents in the field), crimes against humanity (torture, war-mongering), crimes against civil liberties, incompetence (9.11, Katrina), lying to the American people and Congress, or unalloyed greed and corruption--can you say, "No-bid contracts?"

Geez, comedians couldn't make this stuff up if they tried.

No, I don't think the VP--slimy, venal, vindictive, vicious, lying, treasonous, greedy, shameless bastard that he is--meant to shoot the dude.
LOL Not a big fan of old Dick's then eh Don?

Mark
p.s I couln't agree more, he along with 'W' and Donald make an Unholy Trinity

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-16-2006, 02:13 PM   #22
Mike Sigman
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Re: Cheney's Hunting Incident

Ah, yes... the real "AikiSpeak" seems to predominate. The "universal harmony" is supposed to mean a *balance* of yin-yang, yet Aikido lists are invariably unbalanced in their suasions. If you guys gotta hate, try balancing it out to everyone that deserves it, not just the political party you don't like.
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Old 02-16-2006, 02:23 PM   #23
aikigirl10
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Re: Cheney's Hunting Incident

Quote:
Tanner Hukezalie wrote:
I was careful not to call it an accident.

What are people's thoughts on the matter? Personally, I am skeptical that it was accidental at all. On top of that, the facts are a little iffy. I have more reading to do on it, but I just wanted to get the ball rolling on a discussion.

We'll see if Cheney even gets manslaughter.

Opinions???

wow... all the ridiculous ways people will try to bash Bush. What are you, 5 years old? *Grow up*.

Be realistic Dick Cheney is not conspiring to assassinate anyone. Your life is so boring that you have to make up crap about people thats not true and you know it. Or do you just like to stir up problems? Or both? I wouldnt doubt it at all.

I think its perfectly justified to say that Bush isn't our greatest president ever by a long shot but Good God... get a life.

*Paige*
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Old 02-16-2006, 02:28 PM   #24
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Cheney's Hunting Incident

Here's a question...just how the heck do you EAT one of those birds when they have 500 pellets in them??? I have this recurring nightmare about my teeth breaking...I know lead is pretty soft, but really...

R

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 02-16-2006, 02:35 PM   #25
Mike Sigman
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Re: Cheney's Hunting Incident

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
.just how the heck do you EAT one of those birds when they have 500 pellets in them???
You eat carefully. Problem with small birds like quail is that you have to have pretty small pellets in order to not tear them up. So when you're sitting around eating, there's always less conversation as everyone picks their way through the meat. As you go up to bigger birds, the shot gets bigger and it's easier to spot. I used to hunt a lot (because I grew up doing it), but it just seems so much easier to go to the store nowadays. Heck, I'm too lazy to even fish, now.

Mike
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