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Old 02-13-2006, 05:17 AM   #26
Ilja Leonard Pfeijffer
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Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
... I just cannot fathom any other method of ukemi other than back fall.
I don't know if this helps, but I always believe that there is not that much difference with sumi otoshi. Being thrown with tenchi nage, one can hold on to the "earth" hand and take a forward breakfall just as one could do with e.g. katate dori sumi otoshi, holding on to the hand that was grapped in the initial attack, the only difference being that nage's second arm happens to be in a different place.
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Old 02-13-2006, 05:18 AM   #27
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Hi Peter;

Several of our kata require a backward mae ukemi. Within the junanahon sumiotoshi comes to mind; withing the koryu goshin no kata there is a tachi dori tenkai kotegaishi (shihonage) which requires it. I think Yoshinkan's kihon shihonage requires it. Of course I could be misunderstanding what you are referring to but my question seems to revolve more around how tenchi-nage is performed rather than the ukemi itself.
Hello Peter,

Understood (and sumi-otoshi was a waza I also thought of), but the main issue of this poll, as I understand it, is the ukemi required, not how basic tenchi-nage is performed.

Of course, if the issue is really how basic tenchi-nage is (should be) performed, then I have an opinion. However, given that we all know how basic (understood as kihon in Japanese, with all the implications) tenchi-nage should be performed, I think that an 'ushiro' mae ukemi is possible.

Perhaps we should research this topic further with Bryan Bateman when I come in April.

Best,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 02-13-2006, 06:16 AM   #28
NagaBaba
 
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Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
Hello Peter,

Understood (and sumi-otoshi was a waza I also thought of), but the main issue of this poll, as I understand it, is the ukemi required, not how basic tenchi-nage is performed.

Of course, if the issue is really how basic tenchi-nage is (should be) performed, then I have an opinion. However, given that we all know how basic (understood as kihon in Japanese, with all the implications) tenchi-nage should be performed, I think that an 'ushiro' mae ukemi is possible.

Perhaps we should research this topic further with Bryan Bateman when I come in April.

Best,
If uke can take 'ushiro' mae ukemi that means tori opened his technique to let him do it. That is all right at very basic level, when one learns how to receive technique.
But regular receiving of tenchi nage is completly diffeent. This situation happens because tori physically blocks uke's hips so uke can't do ushiro ukemi nor ushiro mae ukemi. Only thing he can do is high flying breakfall "around" tori's hip.
If tori don't block uke's hips, uke can escape or can counter very easy.

Nagababa

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Old 02-13-2006, 07:20 AM   #29
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
Only thing he can do is high flying breakfall "around" tori's hip.
Hello Szczepan,

Were you training when Saito Sensei taught a summer school in New England Aikikai, back in 1981? I kept a notebook of the techniques taught in this seminar and tenchi-nage was also practised. The ukemi, usually done by Mr Klickstein, was as I have described.

The ukemi I am thinking of was also done from kokyu-nage and from shiho-nage (the version where the focus is on the elbow), which also seems to match your description.

As for tenchi-nage, I think the issue partly hangs on the notion of 'basic'. Does it mean the technique you learn first, or the technique that is one of the techniques that is central to the aikido repertoire? To see what I mean, consider what is the best technique fron 'basic' irimi-nage'.

Best wishes,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 02-13-2006, 10:19 AM   #30
Dan Herak
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Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?

I guess I am in the minority as I voted for the forward fall. Though the poll did not distinguish between the two, I prefer the forward fall to the forward roll, which I think is a bit confusing.

As for those questions as to how it is done, the answer is to hold tightly onto the earth hand and use it as the point over which uke flips himself (remember that ukemi is not something done to you, it is something you do). I agree with some posters that the backfall would be more appropriate for an advanced tenchinage in which tori's hip is used prominently. However, the question refers to a basic tenchinage. And I interpret "basic" in terms of tori's form, not necessarily the skill with which it is executed.
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Old 02-13-2006, 05:35 PM   #31
PeterR
 
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Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
Perhaps we should research this topic further with Bryan Bateman when I come in April.
I referred to that in my post before I edited it so as not to put you on the spot. As the April meet now stands we will have a Yoshinkan instructor come in from Tokyo and I asked a higher level Shodokan instructor than myself to take a portion. It will be a great opportunity (if all works out) to look at that very question among other things.

Cheers

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-13-2006, 08:28 PM   #32
nathansnow
 
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Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?

Has anyone given thought to the technique not only being done irimi style, but also with a tenkan turn? With a forcefull, pushing uke, you can perform tenchinage while you tenkan. This will almost always result in uke taking a front roll or break fall.
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Old 02-13-2006, 10:17 PM   #33
siwilson
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Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?

Quote:
Nathan Snow wrote:
Has anyone given thought to the technique not only being done irimi style, but also with a tenkan turn? With a forcefull, pushing uke, you can perform tenchinage while you tenkan. This will almost always result in uke taking a front roll or break fall.
Nathan,

You stole my thunder!

My first line was going to be Tenchi Nage Ichi OR Ni?

In Yoshinkan the Ichi technique in Kihon Waza (Basic Techniques) - Ryote Mochi Tenchi Nage Ichi, is how Boon described, and done slowly, yes, Koho Ukemi (backward sit down style breakfall) is the result. However done by a high level instructor, such as the fantastic Garry Masters Sensei, you don't do your Ukemi, it just happens! Guess what, it is usually neither back or forwards, but a side flip!!!!!

As for Sumi Otoshi, mentioned above - Joe Thambu Sensei did Sumi Otoshi on me as I stood in Kamae in the Shudokan Hombu in Seremban, Malaysia, without warning (It was on the most intense course I have ever done), and I side flipped!

What I am trying to say is, there is no one answer. If I did it (Ichi), I guess my Uke would do Koho Ukemi (back drop). Masters Sensei's Uke would probably do Zempo Ukemi!

Ni however - Uke pushes, Sh'te Tenkans and performs Tenchi Nage - Ukemi takes Zempo Ukemi - forward roll!

My answer to the poll is - I did not tick a box as the answer is not there - it depends on Sh'te (Tori/Nage) and Uke! Sh'te will (should) apply the technique to Uke's ability and Uke will fall as the technique makes or lets them.

Peter and Peter - sounds like you guys have an excellent training session coming up! I am officially jealous!


Last edited by siwilson : 02-13-2006 at 10:20 PM.

Osu!
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Old 02-14-2006, 12:41 AM   #34
grondahl
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Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?

Quote:
Nathan Snow wrote:
Has anyone given thought to the technique not only being done irimi style, but also with a tenkan turn? With a forcefull, pushing uke, you can perform tenchinage while you tenkan. This will almost always result in uke taking a front roll or break fall.
This is one of the ki no nagare versions I mentioned earlier. I have also practiced a variant where tori steps back, little of the line to "draw out ukes balance" and then re-enters strongly with tenchinage. That version can also lead pretty easy into a high fall, mae ukemi or "ushiro mae ukemi" depending on how it´s done.
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Old 02-14-2006, 08:18 AM   #35
ian
 
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Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?

I wrote backward, because if it is irimi and it is done fast and with correct timing there is no time for uke to turn himself. However, if it is pretty static (or if uke is spinning more on their axis e.g. due to a redirection or a tenkan movement) a forward roll is more likely. e.g. if irimi-nage is being executed, but uke pushes forward towards nage (like a shoulder barge), and nage turns tenkan to allow a tenchi-nage to occur.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 02-14-2006, 11:29 AM   #36
siwilson
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Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?

Quote:
Ian Dodkins wrote:
I wrote backward, because if it is irimi and it is done fast and with correct timing there is no time for uke to turn himself. However, if it is pretty static (or if uke is spinning more on their axis e.g. due to a redirection or a tenkan movement) a forward roll is more likely. e.g. if irimi-nage is being executed, but uke pushes forward towards nage (like a shoulder barge), and nage turns tenkan to allow a tenchi-nage to occur.
Actually, if the technique is done fast and correct you would flip over instead of taking a back drop (Koho Ukemi). The reason is your balance is broken so that your center of gravity cannot fall fast enough. Tenchi Nage attacks the body above the center of gravity, but not down. Your center of gravity cannot accelerate towards the tatami at move than 9.82 m/s/s with your feet staying on the mat, but Sh'te/Tori/Nage can cause the upper body to accelerate more. Hence Uke turns over!

Physics is great! Actually all Aikido is Physics. Long live Physics and realise Ki does not exist!

Osu!
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Old 02-14-2006, 11:31 AM   #37
siwilson
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Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?

Hmmm, the flip [sic] side is you go backward and your legs fly up in the air and you land on your head!


Osu!
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Old 02-14-2006, 12:43 PM   #38
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?

I just read this thread today...interesting. In my experience, either a back fall or a forward roll, or a breakfall could be done. One experience from my journal:

Quote:
Had one really perfect tenshinage during randori…uke did this wonderfull high flying ukemi as I entered strongly…probably the closest I'll ever get to doing anything like Utada sensei does. Instead of just turning palm down against the wrist for the top hand, I then moved to a soft but firm atemi to the side of the neck while maintaining connection with both hands. Uke rotated all the way around the bottom hand like it was a pivot point, going completely over the top. WOW. It'll never happen like that again…zanshin was a kick!
I asked my uke afterward if it was my waza that produced the breakfall, or if he was just being nice. He said that since I was entering so strongly, he really didn't have a choice. FWIW.

I should also note that I have done iriminage in a similar way...but it makes me nervous sometimes...one time uke's neck made a series of cracks as I threw him... The next time I did a similar throw, I controlled uke to 'force' the back throw...he was so busy trying to do a flying front fall, I just stopped and didn't throw. Uke wasn't very happy with me...

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 02-14-2006 at 12:53 PM.

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Old 02-14-2006, 10:04 PM   #39
xuzen
 
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Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?

For those who thinks that mae ukemi (front roll/flip is possible; I just want to point out about one teensy-weensy detail.... The poll states clearly basic version of tenchi-nage. In my book, basic means kihon.

OK, having said that, for the sake of argument, you are doing ryote katate mochi tenchi nage ni, assuming uke comes in very strongly and with much commitment. As shite you tenkan and spun uke around so much that you essentially have uke facing the same direction as you are.

Then shite proceed to project uke forward. Uke does a forward roll or flip. If that is the technique shite is doing, then in my book, shite is not doing tenchi-nage. I would classify that as a form of kokyu nage.

IMO, I would consider that as a poorly executed jiyu waza technique. Such projection need too much cooperation to work. It is simply as a technique to help uke learn how to ukemi. To consider it as a technique proper, NAY. I prefer the SLAM UKE ONTO MAT (TM) version.

To SiWilson,
I also agree on the side flip.... It has happened on numerous occasion in my practice before. Nasty little bugger those side flip.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 02-15-2006, 01:06 AM   #40
grondahl
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Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?

Quote:
xusen wrote:
I would classify that as a form of kokyu nage
And what is ot that separates tenchinage from being a kokyu nage with a name?

The "ushiro" mae ukemi is a very fast fall, like the one you do if tori enters very strongly or directly in iriminage or sokumen iriminage.
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Old 02-15-2006, 07:20 AM   #41
Nick Simpson
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Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?

I'd say its upto uke, whatever they can do they should do.

But for the sake of the discussion, for the most basic tenchinage I would say a side/rear break fall is probably the best as it still allows tori to lock uke's hips out but is easier to perform than a flip/tobu ukemi. For a more advanced tenchi, then flip/tobu ukemi all the way, if it's neccessary.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 02-15-2006, 12:46 PM   #42
billybob
 
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Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?

John Riggs: "Whatever is safe."

This is the guy I want to train with.

I lean toward any of the opinions expressed that are similar to "You just go with it, the way you are going, whatever is safe."

If nage is a beginner he may not know that we are in a situation that could break my back or neck.

Boon said:
Quote:
A good outcome, you should get uke resting his weight entirely on one leg and the other leg is at tip toe. At this moment in time, uke is probably arched backwards, with his head behind his center of gravity. The proceed with tsugi ashi (sliding) movement at a 45 degree angle across his arched back. Please note, as you slide, your hip is connected to the hip of uke.
I can imagine 'falling' backwards with the momentum, or jumping back and falling and countering the technique by bringing nage forward and turning to do sutemi waza. No?

dave
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