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Old 02-09-2006, 10:56 AM   #26
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
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Re: Credentials

Quote:
Clark Bateman wrote:
BANG! Nail struck squarely on head. And ALL credentials are purely subjective, especially from the point of view of someone belonging to a "rival" organization. Let me give you an example: A guy with a Dan grading in Shin Shin Toitsu (Ki Society) Aikido is teaching in your town, but since his grading is not Aikikai, is it less than genuine? You will say "No, It's OK, because Ki Society is a recognized system." Recognized by whom? YOU... that's who. You have made a subjective decision based on your own value system. Ultimately, that's what EVERYBODY has to do. It's just that some (many, actually) prefer to look at a guy's Aikido, rather than his diploma. But the decision is, and MUST be, left up to the student.
Nail struck squarely on the head by Alec, and driven home convincingly by Clark! Well done chaps.

regards
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-09-2006, 05:37 PM   #27
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
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Re: Credentials

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote:
IMHO, credential do matter to a degree. They speak to the honor and integrity of the instructor, not the quality of the instruction. If people say up front they have no credentials, then fine. But to say they have it and don't, or bought it, makes me question.

I like knowing the lineage of my instructors. Honor and ethics matter to me. And yes, that has made me the bad guy.

IMHO, usually its the people without credentials that complain that credentials, or where they got them, doesn't matter.
Good points Lynn. The other argument sometimes heard is that they did not consider rank important-usually it's not except that they often advance themselves so then it must be. There are a lot of excuses but the bottom line is to progress in an art such as aikido it is generally necessary to be under the direction of a higher ranked individual-especially through the first 4 dan ranks and maybe higher. Just my opinion.

One of my friends posed a good question: Would you want to go to a doctor, lawyer, psychiatrist, etc. with bogus or no credentials? I think that's a good point. Instructors are hopefully professionals as well and as such they should be able to provide credentials or as Lynn suggests at least be upfront about it. Fake ones are easy to come by with the soke dokey organizations. Real ones can be verified.
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Old 02-10-2006, 06:43 AM   #28
crbateman
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Re: Credentials

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
Fake ones (credentials) are easy to come by with the soke dokey organizations. Real ones can be verified.
Fake credentials are just as easy to recognize as they are to get. Think about it... If your "diploma" reads "Mickey Mouse International Soke Society", is it really going to do you ANY good to display it? People with this type of credentials are really only fooling themselves (and those few not smart enough to see through the crap). The ultimate judges are still the PEOPLE AT LARGE. Just watch the man (or woman) do Aikido, and draw your own conclusions. We don't need to rise up and protect the world from those with the "Homeless, Will do Aikido for Food" signs.
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Old 02-10-2006, 07:18 AM   #29
Edwin Neal
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Re: Credentials

just watch the performance, and just look at the credentials, means nothing to someone who has no reference point or knowledge...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-10-2006, 07:27 AM   #30
Counsel
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Re: Credentials

Quote:
Chris Bateman wrote:
A guy with a Dan grading in Shin Shin Toitsu (Ki Society) Aikido is teaching in your town, but since his grading is not Aikikai, is it less than genuine? You will say "No, It's OK, because Ki Society is a recognized system." Recognized by whom? YOU... that's who. You have made a subjective decision based on your own value system. Ultimately, that's what EVERYBODY has to do. It's just that some (many, actually) prefer to look at a guy's Aikido, rather than his diploma. But the decision is, and MUST be, left up to the student.
Right...but the decision was made after seeing his Ki Society certificate, after doing research and seeing that people think highly of the Ki Society and their art (and the way they teach it), and after having some information with which to make my decision (e.g., where else can I learn and they recognize my previous training, etc.).

A teacher with no 'certificate' who says 'aikido is aikido,' and who is not forthcoming on where and with whom he learned aikido is not a person I want teaching me Aikido. However, a popular school in my area that has students that like the instructor may be of interest to me, and the certificate could help me decide if I, the emphasis on the I (that you may not see as well because it is capitalized...), if I am interested or may move to an area with an Aikikai and not a Ki Society (or other organization that may not recognize my training...

As has been pointed out, perhpas not so well...

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
just watch the performance, and just look at the credentials, means nothing to someone who has no reference point or knowledge...
The certificate does not MEAN the teacher knows aikido, can teach aikido, or anything else, but it lets prospective students (namely me) see some history, affiliation, and opinions. Might you see how this information may be useful to someone (if not you)?

C
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Old 02-11-2006, 10:54 AM   #31
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
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Re: Credentials

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
just watch the performance, and just look at the credentials, means nothing to someone who has no reference point or knowledge...
Good point. Ability and credentials don't always match especially if they are inflated-i.e., sokey dokey organizations tend to inflate them. Even test aikido ranks when no aikidoka are on staff. karate ranked instructors giving aikido ranks-that's valid.
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Old 02-11-2006, 07:41 PM   #32
crbateman
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Re: Credentials

Maybe I'm just in the minority, but if I'm walking down the street, and pass a storefront where there is Aikido going on, I'm going to stop and watch. And if it's GOOD Aikido, I'm going to make like a sponge and absorb what I can. Maybe later, I'll check out the instructor, as I would be curious from whom he learned this good Aikido. But the point is that I would give the man credit at face value for his competence, regardless of whose flag he was flying (even if it was his own). If I can learn something useful from a guy who calls himself 13th dan Super Soke Almighty, then it doesn't matter to me if he wants to be called "Your Highness". I'll take his knowledge, and leave him wrapped in his own grandeur. My desire to learn outweighs most other considerations.

The other side of the coin: If I'm looking at sloppy, uninspired, just plain BAD Aikido, I'll bounce, because at that point, I don't much care if I'm watching Shioda Sensei's adopted nephew. Credentials are often only skin deep, but bad Aikido goes clear to the bone. Just one guy's humble opinion...
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Old 02-11-2006, 09:05 PM   #33
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
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Re: Credentials

http://cosmicfighting.741.com/


your wish is my command
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Old 02-11-2006, 09:53 PM   #34
Jerry Miller
 
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Re: Credentials

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
http://cosmicfighting.741.com/


your wish is my command

What in the world is this place.

Jerry Miller
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Old 02-11-2006, 10:13 PM   #35
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
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Re: Credentials

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
I am just curious. Do people put importance on verification of someone's credentials? Especially an instructor. With so much martial arts fraud out there do people care?
It's really disappointing when someone has lied, isn't it. They begin in youthful folly and pay for it later when they've established a reputation which is quickly soiled when the lies come to the surface. Lovret comes to mind. Not worth the quick gain in the beginning.

Then again, credentials are probably like sausage and laws--you don't want to see them made. Osensei jacked people up in DAN to compete with other arts, didn't he...

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 02-11-2006, 10:45 PM   #36
Tim Olds
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Re: Credentials

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
http://cosmicfighting.741.com/


your wish is my command

Now THAT was out there....

I think I'd rather go train with the penguins!
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Old 02-12-2006, 08:20 AM   #37
Qatana
 
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Re: Credentials

its really amazing the things that I find fascinating at 7AM on a Sunday morning. Now I really wanna learn the Photonic Pulse!

Q
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www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 02-12-2006, 08:42 AM   #38
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
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Re: Credentials

I had to throw that one in since this was the most amusing of the ones I have run across. It was on a thread on e-budo. I love it where the celestial master comes in wearing a silver robe and medallion which he hangs on a statue of an alien. Then the students stand on one foot, wiggle their fingers with their arms in the air and then bow down to him on all 4. ROFLMAO.
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Old 02-12-2006, 08:44 AM   #39
aikidoc
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Re: Credentials

Now there is one set of credentials I challenge anyone to verify. Be ready for a little trip into the galaxy-somewhere. What amazed me is the charge between $400 and $750 a month for in most cases 2 classes a week. I wish I had that much charisma-or BS.
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Old 02-12-2006, 09:44 AM   #40
crbateman
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Re: Credentials

Oh, yeah... He's GONE...
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Old 02-12-2006, 11:31 AM   #41
jimbaker
Dojo: Aikido of Norfolk/ Aikido Society of Memphis
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Re: Credentials

Quote:
Tim Olds wrote:
Now THAT was out there....

I think I'd rather go train with the penguins!
We resemble that remark!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jimbaker6/aa/index.htm

Jim Baker
Aikido of Norfolk
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Old 02-13-2006, 05:19 AM   #42
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
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Re: Credentials

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
Now there is one set of credentials I challenge anyone to verify. Be ready for a little trip into the galaxy-somewhere. What amazed me is the charge between $400 and $750 a month for in most cases 2 classes a week. I wish I had that much charisma-or BS.
What one really has to wonder at is how anyone can be gullible enough to pay that. Now that really is mind boggling

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-13-2006, 05:24 AM   #43
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
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Re: Credentials

Quote:
Jim Baker wrote:
Brilliant Jim!

I particularly like "As AaaRk Sensei is always saying, "Soar high; crash hard. We're flightless birds, remember!"

Cheers, that brightened up a dull morning!

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-13-2006, 11:49 AM   #44
crbateman
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Re: Credentials

That penguin thing is hysterical... (But somebody has obviously got WAY too much time on his hands...)
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Old 02-13-2006, 12:03 PM   #45
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
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Re: Credentials

I am not sure if the late Hikisutchi Shihan made this remark, but as I heard it: "Once you see good Aikido, you know what bad Aikido is."
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Old 02-13-2006, 02:09 PM   #46
aikidoc
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Re: Credentials

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote:
I am not sure if the late Hikisutchi Shihan made this remark, but as I heard it: "Once you see good Aikido, you know what bad Aikido is."
That is a great statement. Even my wife has developed that ability over the years and she doesn't even train.
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Old 02-13-2006, 02:39 PM   #47
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Credentials

Quote:
Credentials are often only skin deep, but bad Aikido goes clear to the bone.
May I borrow that???

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 02-13-2006, 03:43 PM   #48
Shipley
Dojo: UBC Okanagan Aikido Club
Location: Kelowna
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Re: Credentials

Quote:
How can you call it Aikido if you don't use weapons?

How come we're called birds if we can't use our wings.
That'll keep me laughing for days.

Paul
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Old 02-14-2006, 05:58 AM   #49
aikidoc
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Re: Credentials

Here's another that cropped up but it's not as funny as the Grand Celestial Do (GCD): http://www.housekasara.org/kasma.html

Some have far too much free time on their hands.
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Old 02-14-2006, 03:59 PM   #50
ikkitosennomusha
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Re: Credentials

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote:
I am not sure if the late Hikisutchi Shihan made this remark, but as I heard it: "Once you see good Aikido, you know what bad Aikido is."
This is what I have been saying to alot of people and had no idea others felt the same way. Perhaps it is common sense.
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